Newbie 2093 | New Wave | Postgame

For Newbie Games, which have a set format and experienced moderators. Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Post Post #1125 (ISO) » Tue May 10, 2022 4:19 pm

Post by TTTT »

In post 1121, Takemikazuchi02 wrote:
In post 1115, Val89 wrote:I think we can all read between the lines of the posts made post-replacement to deduce what drove the decision for them - as town - to step away.
Fuck you for implying this. I'm not the reason he left and you know it. You're such a fucking lying snake holy shit.
I was right about you, you're the worst person I have ever played mafia with so I'll repeat what I said, fuck off.
do I get a say in why I replaced out?
It was largely because you were insufferable and sucking all the fun out of day1
And now you are making post game no fun
people are here apologizing to you (I don't know why) and you are doubling down on your toxicity
it's postgame
learn to deescalate FFS
can you add me to your list of people you don't ever want to play with again?
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Post Post #1126 (ISO) » Tue May 10, 2022 4:21 pm

Post by TTTT »

Val
I'm seriously impressed by your scum range
You did not play like this at all in our scum game together
Solid
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Post Post #1127 (ISO) » Tue May 10, 2022 4:55 pm

Post by Takemikazuchi02 »

What a load of shit. You're saying this to spite me
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Post Post #1128 (ISO) » Tue May 10, 2022 5:49 pm

Post by ItalianoVD »

In post 1127, Takemikazuchi02 wrote:What a load of shit. You're saying this to spite me
Any response to what I posted?
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Post Post #1129 (ISO) » Tue May 10, 2022 6:08 pm

Post by Takemikazuchi02 »

You saying you were busy during the early parts of day 1 makes a lot of sense.
I think the thing you misunderstood about me is that I don't just react depending on how strong the pressure i'm under is but also depending on how if the arguments used against me make sense or not.

If you thought I was mad at you I'm not. I was just dumfounded by the way you were playing when you revealed confirmed you weren't scum.
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Post Post #1130 (ISO) » Tue May 10, 2022 7:27 pm

Post by ItalianoVD »

In post 1129, Takemikazuchi02 wrote:I think the thing you misunderstood about me is that I don't just react depending on how strong the pressure i'm under is but also depending on how if the arguments used against me make sense or not.
Okay, that’s fair and it makes sense because I’m actually the same way. Apologies again, I should have realized that because I know how it feels to be on the other side.
In post 1129, Takemikazuchi02 wrote:If you thought I was mad at you I'm not. I was just dumfounded by the way you were playing when you revealed confirmed you weren't scum.
Yeah lol, if you think that was bad, wait until you get out of the newbie queue and into the normal one. :eek:

There are some characters out there that even I don’t particularly like playing with :lol:
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Post Post #1131 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 1:13 am

Post by ItalianoVD »

In post 1125, TTTT wrote:
In post 1121, Takemikazuchi02 wrote:
In post 1115, Val89 wrote:I think we can all read between the lines of the posts made post-replacement to deduce what drove the decision for them - as town - to step away.
Fuck you for implying this. I'm not the reason he left and you know it. You're such a fucking lying snake holy shit.
I was right about you, you're the worst person I have ever played mafia with so I'll repeat what I said, fuck off.
do I get a say in why I replaced out?
It was largely because you were insufferable and sucking all the fun out of day1
And now you are making post game no fun
people are here apologizing to you (I don't know why) and you are doubling down on your toxicity
it's postgame
learn to deescalate FFS
can you add me to your list of people you don't ever want to play with again?
This is unfair. When someone has a gripe it’s not for us to just dismiss it, double down, and get our point across. We got acknowledge it and clear up the perception. We’re the experienced ones, we should be the ones making it right. As not only SE’s, but as members of this community we gotta be make the new players feel welcome. This isn’t game related at all, like y’all are attacking the player and that ain’t cool.
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Post Post #1132 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 1:46 am

Post by Val89 »

In post 1131, ItalianoVD wrote:This isn’t game related at all, like y’all are attacking the player and that ain’t cool.
I don't think that's fair to TTTT either, to be honest.

That post was in response to a back and forth which involved me trying to clear up the misconception that T02 appeared to hold, that being told they should cool off on the toxicity because it made D1 unfun to play, was untrue and entirely a scum tactic to advance a wincon at the expense of his own enjoyment.

I pointed out that wasn't true, and that is was obvious from posts in the dead thread that town (specifically TTTT) had also been affected by that behavior, but it was cool, I understand that's how he wants to play, and I don't feel any ill-will towards him personally and some people will be perfectly happy to play with him in that manner, but some, like myself, will chose not to in future.

His response to that was to accuse me of being a fucking lying snake about TTTT being affected, and TTTTs post, whilst worded quite aggressively, is confirming the fact that my read of the situation was correct; to which T02s reply was "You are saying that to spite me".

I'm ready to drop this. Without naming names, I'm sure all the SEs in this game can think of at least one other member of this community, perhaps more than one, for whom this sort of aggressive push-back is also part of their personality or play-style [and indeed that a) accusing others of not wanting to be subject to it to be evidence of bullying, abuse, or morally reprehensible on the part of those players and b)carrying it over to post-game and asking those players never to play with them again is also part of that package in those cases as well] and some players subsequently chose not to be involved in games they feature in, and some players are perfectly OK with it.

It's OK if your thoughts on the matter fall on that more forgiving and tolerant side, Itailano, but I don't think it is fair to criticize TTTT for falling down on the other side of that decision.
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Post Post #1133 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 3:00 am

Post by Takemikazuchi02 »

@Val

I will drop the insults and I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
You point to TTTT as proof that I was toxic but when you read the thread, I only became agressive with him after he made these shitty posts because two people disagreed with him on the greeting "tell". He has no business lecturing anyone on how they aren't fun to play with, the reason he replaced out is himself.
The reason I didn't believe you is because you used TTTT instead of giving your own explanation.
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Post Post #1134 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 3:04 am

Post by Takemikazuchi02 »

I went overboard with the insults and i'm sorry for that but I still think you're lying.
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Post Post #1135 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 4:00 am

Post by ItalianoVD »

I get that TTTT didn’t want to play because of Take, but my point is not about taking sides, it’s about making the new players time here better so that they want to play and not leave. I understand players clash, but player retention should be more important than wining an argument.
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Post Post #1136 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 4:01 am

Post by ItalianoVD »

*winning*
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Post Post #1137 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 4:31 am

Post by Val89 »

It is not, not ever has been my motivation to win an argument at the expense of player retention.

My intention was to attempt to correct what appeared to be a misconception, that my saying that I found the game less enjoyable then I might otherwise have done, was entirely a scum play, and had no basis in reality.

Given the last post, it is clear my attempt to correct has been and likley always will be unsuccessful, and T02 will continue to believe I was lying about it, but I felt it was important to try. I understand my comfort is not the only consideration, but there might be others who feel the same way who do not feel comfortable participating in this discussion given the heat still simmering under the surface. I know for context I very nearly quit the site (and did leave for a period) after newbie 2070, the second I participated in and didn't say anything about it.

I could have said nothing and simply shadow-
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Post Post #1138 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 4:38 am

Post by Val89 »

Apologies for the misclick. Continuing..

I could have said nothing and simply shadow-blacklisted him, particularly given the request he made not to play with me in future, but I also think its important that, even if T02 still belives it was a scum play, that other people who might be seeing this discussion or might on the future, that it was not. I have done so now.

I hope every new player who participated in this game continues to remain a part of this community, and that includes T02.
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Post Post #1139 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 5:58 am

Post by TTTT »

In post 1133, Takemikazuchi02 wrote:I only became agressive with him after he made these shitty posts 199 213 because two people disagreed with him on the greeting "tell".
Yeah that's not what happened
I never even brought up the tell
someone else did (I think BigT)
and then two of you got obsessed with it and made it a giant distraction even though nobody was advocating a gamesolve based on that tell
And everybody was saying drop it
You were arguing about something that nobody really cared about
And you were being personally insulting about it
The "shitty posts" I wrote were in response to being lectured to about a topic that was irrelevant to the game, by someone who didn't even bother to try and understand the topic they were lecturing about
Aspho's post was grandstanding
My response was probably more combative than it should have been
But that's part of the game

Newbie games are won by town when they townbloc
It was pretty easy in this game for scum to hide day1 because of silly arguments
I do hope you stick around
But I also hope you will stop with the insults and chill out
it's a team game
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Post Post #1140 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 6:05 am

Post by TTTT »

In post 1135, ItalianoVD wrote:I get that TTTT didn’t want to play because of Take, but my point is not about taking sides, it’s about making the new players time here better so that they want to play and not leave. I understand players clash, but player retention should be more important than wining an argument.
I agree
but players also need to learn how to behave and should be told when they are stepping over the line
Takemikazuchi02 wrote: Fuck you for implying this. I'm not the reason he left and you know it. You're such a fucking lying snake holy shit.
I was right about you, you're the worst person I have ever played mafia with so I'll repeat what I said, fuck off.
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Post Post #1141 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 6:08 am

Post by TTTT »

Anyway, I'd like to move on

@Furtive and @Val
I think you both played well and sometimes it's near impossible to win as scum
Looking back on the game now, is there anything you wish you'd done differently? I remember being puzzled by a night action but can't remember which one it was.
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Post Post #1142 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 6:30 am

Post by furtiveglance »

I kinda thought Aspho was PR day 1 based on coasting/confident tone, but Corn was still a good nightkill for being townread. Maybe at 7 I should have counterclaimed Aspho. I considered it, but they had softed quite well. If I'd known how much would be read into Day 3, I would have led on Val. I just thought people would be more wary of bussing at 5 than they were.
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Post Post #1143 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 6:50 am

Post by Val89 »

I thought Corn was potentially the JK because of the deal made about the
possibly
someone might die N1, but I realised too late that could be accounted for by the fact there had been a doc save in the previous game.

N2, we wanted Aspho in the 5 way, but couldn't risk Italiano surviving to give results while using the block on Aspho.

As far as what I would do different, I think I should have used the time in twilight after the hammer to explain why Furtive outting me (and I believe that was a actual honest drive by mistake, with Furtive having posted before checking our mafia pt, but they will have to confirm that) had changed the calculation on how to play D4. I said in passing that I thought the better plan was to push Val/BigT to Mala than vice versa, and having spent a while discussing the other plan I don't blame Furtive for deciding to go the other way, but I think I could have spent that twilight time before the "Val can no longer post" more effectively.

I won't be voting someone I was already voting 'for emphasis' ever again, as either alignment, given the number of people who missed I was already voting for Aspho on D1.
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Post Post #1144 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 8:29 am

Post by TistDaniel »

In post 1143, Val89 wrote:I won't be voting someone I was already voting 'for emphasis' ever again, as either alignment, given the number of people who missed I was already voting for Aspho on D1.

Oh, I picked up on that while rereading you. I figured it was unintentional though. At the time, I thought Ash was your partner, and you were neglecting details while putting on a show of distancing.
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Post Post #1145 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 10:01 am

Post by Val89 »

Your working theory at the time was that I voted for my scum partner, then forgot I was doing so and so voted her again for distance, and that lack of attention to detail with respect to whom I was voting for was scum indicative?

I know it's difficult to say retrospectively, but I see you jailed BigT from the Mod Pt, so out of interest, what do you think would have been your reaction to a no-kill N3?
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Post Post #1146 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 12:37 pm

Post by TistDaniel »

I probably would have thought Terp got careless and forgot to block.

I expected to be blocked and I expected to be killed. I said as much when I submitted my action--that there was virtually no chance it would even matter.

I did briefly consider the possibility that scum would leave me alive if my read on Terp was wrong, and I took another look at furtive so I wouldn't be flat-footed if I did end up living, but I still ended up concluding there was no way furtive could be scum.
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Post Post #1147 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 12:42 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Despite your reads being wrong I'd say your replacement in had a significant positive impact on the town so i wouldn't worry too much about that.

Well played to everyone this game
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #1148 (ISO) » Wed May 11, 2022 2:55 pm

Post by catboi »

In post 1146, TistDaniel wrote:I probably would have thought Terp got careless and forgot to block.

I expected to be blocked and I expected to be killed. I said as much when I submitted my action--that there was virtually no chance it would even matter.

I did briefly consider the possibility that scum would leave me alive if my read on Terp was wrong, and I took another look at furtive so I wouldn't be flat-footed if I did end up living, but I still ended up concluding there was no way furtive could be scum.
My personal perspective is that you were right on the read that mattered, which was the mafia you voted that day. Everything after that was outside you control so being wrong on fg isn't as important. The way things were going prior to your replace-in, I thought
maybe
furtive gets flipped day 3 but then val probably wins day 4, so you coming in with that read was a huge momentum swing (also sucks for val given all his work to that point was basically undone by something beyond his control, but not a lot that can be done about that)
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Post Post #1149 (ISO) » Thu May 12, 2022 3:49 am

Post by Val89 »

There is another consideration in that you are eventually going to roll scum, and it may well prove helpful to have town games with bad reads - if you are correct all the time, you are going to very quickly acquire a burden of proficiency that's going to have people asking "why are you now pushing town when you usually scum-hunt so well?". I would never deliberately play less then your best as either alignment to improve your chances at the other, but I wouldn't feel sad about being accidentally wrong on occasion because that may prove helpful to your game as a whole.

I asked the question in any case because I had thought about how a no-kill scenario might play out; and specifically said that furtive should not role-block you in that circumstance. Furtive was quick to tell me they didn't want you in the ELO, and I accepted that given that it would be furtive actually playing the thing, although in hindsight perhaps I should have been more careful about pointing out/correcting that it would be a final 4, not a 3 - but it occurs to me that furtive could not have been elimed in a 4 way ELO if you held strong to that town read. It's perhaps instructive to think about in case a scenario like this arises in future.

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