Mini 2332: A Mid-scummer Nights Dream | Meowhalla (Spoiler-Free)

[Prism]

I remember when I thought I was busy in high school in college. Oh, those sweet halcyon days of youth.

[Prism]

and in college*

[Prism]

I've got the confbias and I'm biased from having just finished a game with Black, but I struggle to see how Von Payne is not incredibly obviously towny in this endgame discussion
Black is posting like textbook town endgame and Sunflower is posting like textbook scum endgame

I think Ydrasse kind of realises this with her post asking to see examples of Black in endgame? It's just whether she values that evidence over whatever she thinks makes Von Payne scummy otherwise

I doubt Ydrasse believes in either of these stereotypes as actually indicative.

[Klick]

Why's that

[Prism]

Why's that

This is speculative. I think she resists strong binary classifications of behavior that are grounded more in general folk psychology than in player-specific meta. The best folk psychology generalizations are still unacceptably overbroad while most of them are outright wrong.

The shorter version: she doesn't believe, or believes only weakly, in sweeping categories of objectively scummy and townie behavior.

We are vastly different players, but I suspect this is an area where we share common ground.

[Prism]

That isn't to say that I reject all forms of guessing at someone's mental state. If I think someone is arguing in bad faith or doesn't believe what they're typing, I'm going to find it scummy even if I've never seen them before.

But for example, I'm not going to see someone posting defensively as very probative of alignment in and of itself. I'd put the traditional 1v1/three way arguments like "more focused on why they're town than me being scum" and a whole range of tonal behaviors in that same bucket.

[Prism]

Very tangential and no one asked, but a good model of how I tend to read players is my Dragon read Day 1. I had a mental model for what I expected from Dragon as town, and I wanted to test the initial hypothesis. I knew there was a large margin for error, but I grew a bit more confident that it was workable after the first round.

I was annoyed with everyone jumping to defend Dragon-town not because I thought they were wrong, but because it actually gave Dragon more confidence and comfort in his posting at a time when I wanted him uncomfortable and doubting his own tone. I got an initial reaction that suggested a stronger shove would either tip the scale, either turning his scumposting completely wooden or getting a raw self-righteousness that was town-indicative. The town set him back on his feet before I got that. I put Dragon as a townlean by the very end of the day, but I wanted to rough him up a bit more in order to get something decisive.

But I wouldn't really follow that approach to random players, and most of my scumreads take a similar approach.

[Klick]

I strongly agree with a lot of what you've just said in response to me and think I wrote my original post lazily in such a way that it looks like the opposite
I've found myself arguing against objective tells quite a lot lately

'Textbook' was a bad choice of words to convey what I mean, and I'm saying it with a lot of care towards understanding how specifically Black and fireisredsir play

I think Black's approach so far this day has been very authentic and an unintuitive angle to take if she were scum. The things she's posting are inextricably tied to how she's currently feeling because she's town in this situation. Whereas fire's posting is... I guess 'refined' is the best word I can think of for it. The point of what fire is posting atm is to play out the endgame to its conclusion, which doesn't necessarily = scum but is more likely to be what scum!fire would be doing than town!fire due to the current dynamics.

[Klick]

Very tangential and no one asked, but a good model of how I tend to read players is my Dragon read Day 1. I had a mental model for what I expected from Dragon as town, and I wanted to test the initial hypothesis. I knew there was a large margin for error, but I grew a bit more confident that it was workable after the first round.

I was annoyed with everyone jumping to defend Dragon-town not because I thought they were wrong, but because it actually gave Dragon more confidence and comfort in his posting at a time when I wanted him uncomfortable and doubting his own tone. I got an initial reaction that suggested a stronger shove would either tip the scale, either turning his scumposting completely wooden or getting a raw self-righteousness that was town-indicative. The town set him back on his feet before I got that. I put Dragon as a townlean by the very end of the day, but I wanted to rough him up a bit more in order to get something decisive.

But I wouldn't really follow that approach to random players, and most of my scumreads take a similar approach.

I find I commonly use a more knock-off, mental-math, in-the-moment-planning version of what you've described here basically

[GuyInFreezer]

What

Did we just win

[Cabd]

GG scum wins.

[Prism]

We will find a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Have faith.

Another day of mafiascum.net

[morph the cat]

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