Mewbie: 2092 [Finished]

[Ryno56]

My perspective is a funny one. I was widely townread earlier in the game. I expected to come into ELo as the deciding vote between you two. Somehow you've both flipped it around on me, and one of you is going to kick yourself for that. Trust the reads of all the other townies who townread me, and wonder to yourself: why have scum kept me alive? Remember that scum are trying to set up a miselim.

The biggest red flag about Somnus is the Furtive nightkill. Furtive was certain that Somnus was scum. Either Somnus killed furtive or Goldfish killed furtive trying to frame Somnus, but that seems incredibly risky. The optimal kill for Goldfish was Cat.

Goldfish has been barely active today, but reading their other game, it seems like this is fairly normal for them. It's also possible they are scum sitting back and letting me hang myself. The main evidence in favour of Goldfish is the interaction with RCE. It seems like scum trying to get town to claim early. If that was scum interacting with scum then it's a very clever play.

I'm undecided between the two of you, but I've been leaning Somnus since the start. Seems like we're all holding back our vote which doesn't help me decide.

[GoldfishFromTheMoon]

If either of you are online let me know, real time interaction helps me sort people.

It's getting kind of late, I'll be online for the next few hours and then I probably won't be around till an hour or so before the deadline so I don't know if I'll vote now or then, but if you have more questions for me ask them soon ish so I'll be able to answer them.

[Somnus]

My perspective is a funny one. I was widely townread earlier in the game. I expected to come into ELo as the deciding vote between you two. Somehow you've both flipped it around on me, and one of you is going to kick yourself for that. Trust the reads of all the other townies who townread me, and wonder to yourself: why have scum kept me alive? Remember that scum are trying to set up a miselim.

The biggest red flag about Somnus is the Furtive nightkill. Furtive was certain that Somnus was scum. Either Somnus killed furtive or Goldfish killed furtive trying to frame Somnus, but that seems incredibly risky. The optimal kill for Goldfish was Cat.

Goldfish has been barely active today, but reading their other game, it seems like this is fairly normal for them. It's also possible they are scum sitting back and letting me hang myself. The main evidence in favour of Goldfish is the interaction with RCE. It seems like scum trying to get town to claim early. If that was scum interacting with scum then it's a very clever play.

I'm undecided between the two of you, but I've been leaning Somnus since the start. Seems like we're all holding back our vote which doesn't help me decide.

Thoughts:

1.) I'm having a hard time believing you thought you were going to be the deciding vote heading into eLo. Heading into Night 3, you were quite literally the unanimous scum read by all of the remaining players: myself, Goldfish, and Cat. It's probably been a good 2 weeks since you got some early townreads from a couple of players based on the limited content we had in the early parts of Day 1. I didn't really understand the couple of early town-reads of you, and I wasn't one of them. Most of your ISO on Days 1 and 3 read to me as:

"Player X said something completely innocuous and NAI? Very scummy!"

And as far as Day 4, the one post a day except for what was an objectively bad reaction to being questioned on Wednesday, certainly hasn't helped. Goldfish's inactivity during Day 4 and the lack of interactions between the two of you hasn't helped me either.

Isis town-read me the whole game while she was around (and never mentioned you once). Cat had Goldfish and I above you in her initial reads-list and after very briefly considering Scum!Goldfish during Day 3 twilight, seemed very convinced that you were mafia. Goldfish quickly realized early in this game that Scum!Somnus is not present with us in this game. Whether she realized that because she's informed or because she made an accurate read is TBD. Point being, you're not even remotely as widely town-read in this game as you keep trying to make it appear.

2.) If you're as widely town-read as you keep insisting you are (you're not, but I'll go along with it since you believe you are), why would mafia keep you alive as a mis-lim? Mafia doesn't keep widely town-read players around as mis-lims. Widely town-read players are by definition, nearly impossible to mis-lim. They night-kill them. So I know you didn't mean to make yourself look suspicious when you said this, and I'll try and write it off as just bad logic rather than blatantly dishonest, but the point you're trying to sell would actually make you look worse, not better.

3.) I have fully deconstructed your obsession with faulty Night-Kill analysis already in Day 4, but if you insist, we can revisit. You were town-read by literally 1 of the 3 people night-killed. I was town-read by 2 of them. So what? That neither clears me as town, nor does it make you mafia. It's a bad case to make, both as town and as scum, and I can tell it's not something you're going to consider reflecting on in this game, but for your own good, in future games, I suggest you try and escape this kind of Level 0 thinking regardless of alignment. It's going to be very easy to manipulate you via Night Kills when you're town, if not outright frame you. And as mafia, it's going to look like a really lazy and low-hanging-fruit push (as it potentially does here).

Additionally, it's hypocritical, considering Cat was kept alive when she was pretending to town-read you (she walked it back and explained it during Day 3 twilight) and then as soon as you became her biggest scum-read, she then died. On top of all of that, it was something you immediately attributed to Alianna on Day 3. Nowhere during Day 3 did you mention my name in regards to the Night Kill. That was mysteriously a new Ryno development as soon as we got to eLo.

If your biggest case against someone is something that you don't know that they even did rather than the things they have verifiably said and done in the game, as well as something that could just as easily be attributed to you, if not more so, that should give you some pause and some self-reflection. I explained on Day 3 how that bizarre Night Kill, more than anyone, would most likely benefit you, and I wasn't even voting for you on Day 3. If I were scum, it's the kind of lazy push I could make on someone rather than the things they have verifiably said and done.

As Goldfish pointed out, the pretend reads-list by Enigma looks very much like he's trying to protect you. To me, it looks like he was trying to set up Goldfish, furtive, and I as potential mis-lims without committing to "Goldfish and Somnus are scum". And potentially, if he had gotten his way and mis-limmed furtive on Day 1, to set up Alianna. I don't know. That's what it looks like to me. Should I use that to build a case against you and clear Goldfish when it's something you didn't say or do?

Goldfish would potentially benefit from leaving Cat alive for another day since Cat was town-reading her, but I'm certainly not going to use that and try to push that as a reason for Goldfish is mafia. I have verifiable concerns about Goldfish that I've already talked about, and none of it has to do with speculating on things that I can't prove she has said or done. Again, that's the kind of lazy case that mafia might do rather than exploring what someone has verifiably said and done in a game.

As a bonus: In all 3 games I've played on this site, there has been a confirmed town power role going into Night 2. Here's the brief history of my night-kills as scum on this site:

Newbie 2087 - Night 1: I killed a mason Night 1.

Newbie 2087 - Night 2: My partner got to E-1 on Day 2 and claimed mason. This outed the other mason in a counter-claim. After my partner was executed Day 2, I killed the other mason.

Newbie 2087 - Night 3: There were no town power roles left and I killed one of the 3 remaining Vanilla Townies.

Newbie 2090 - Night 1: I rolecopped someone who ended up being the doctor and killed a vanilla townie while trying to hit a PR. The townie originally suspected me early on in Day 1, but by the end of Day 1, they had hammered someone else and were very suspicious of furtive. I don't night-kill based on who currently or previously suspected me.

Newbie 2090 - Night 2: I had my partner kill the confirmed doctor, even though we had the tracker narrowed down to 2 people and there was a pretty good chance at that point that the tracker could get a guilty on my partner (it did).

Whenever I've had a chance to kill a confirmed town power role, I have. Keeping a confirmed town power role alive during a night phase isn't in my playbook.

4.) Goldfish was quite active in the other game, and has been for the majority of this one until Day 4. If you just pulled up post-count from her previous game and didn't actually read through any of the game (as it appears you probably did), you'd miss out on the fact that she replaced into the game very very late into Day 1, and the game ended after maybe a page worth of posts on Day 3. For how long she was in that game, she was very active.

[Somnus]

If either of you are online let me know, real time interaction helps me sort people.

It's getting kind of late, I'll be online for the next few hours and then I probably won't be around till an hour or so before the deadline so I don't know if I'll vote now or then, but if you have more questions for me ask them soon ish so I'll be able to answer them.

I've got about an hour or so and then won't be back on the PC until around 7 PM eastern.

[Somnus]

If either of you are online let me know, real time interaction helps me sort people.

It's getting kind of late, I'll be online for the next few hours and then I probably won't be around till an hour or so before the deadline so I don't know if I'll vote now or then, but if you have more questions for me ask them soon ish so I'll be able to answer them.

Kind of wish I had pried for more information from Cat on your playstyle while she was still around.

[GoldfishFromTheMoon]

If either of you are online let me know, real time interaction helps me sort people.

It's getting kind of late, I'll be online for the next few hours and then I probably won't be around till an hour or so before the deadline so I don't know if I'll vote now or then, but if you have more questions for me ask them soon ish so I'll be able to answer them.

Kind of wish I had pried for more information from Cat on your playstyle while she was still around.

Yeah I'm still wishing she was alive to back me up lol, she would know I'm town.

[Somnus]

If either of you are online let me know, real time interaction helps me sort people.

It's getting kind of late, I'll be online for the next few hours and then I probably won't be around till an hour or so before the deadline so I don't know if I'll vote now or then, but if you have more questions for me ask them soon ish so I'll be able to answer them.

Kind of wish I had pried for more information from Cat on your playstyle while she was still around.

Yeah I'm still wishing she was alive to back me up lol, she would know I'm town.

Explain. Any particular reasons?

[GoldfishFromTheMoon]

Somnus I have a question for you, you've previously said that you prefer not having people make massive wall posts of analysis as town, and also that you find that very easy to fake as scum, day 4 and the end of 3 you've started making a lot of big wall posts. Is there a reason for you doing that when you've previously said you don't like it.

Note this is not intended as a scum accusation it's just something that didn't entirely make sense which stood pit to me and I'd like a reason for.

[GoldfishFromTheMoon]

If either of you are online let me know, real time interaction helps me sort people.

It's getting kind of late, I'll be online for the next few hours and then I probably won't be around till an hour or so before the deadline so I don't know if I'll vote now or then, but if you have more questions for me ask them soon ish so I'll be able to answer them.

Kind of wish I had pried for more information from Cat on your playstyle while she was still around.

Yeah I'm still wishing she was alive to back me up lol, she would know I'm town.

Explain. Any particular reasons?

As in reasons why she would townread me?

[GoldfishFromTheMoon]

Somnus I have a question for you, you've previously said that you prefer not having people make massive wall posts of analysis as town, and also that you find that very easy to fake as scum, day 4 and the end of 3 you've started making a lot of big wall posts. Is there a reason for you doing that when you've previously said you don't like it.

Note this is not intended as a scum accusation it's just something that didn't entirely make sense which stood pit to me and I'd like a reason for.

That pit is supposed to be out,
ahh the typos.

[Ryno56]

Was going to post, but will read the posts that have just come through

[Somnus]

Somnus I have a question for you, you've previously said that you prefer not having people make massive wall posts of analysis as town, and also that you find that very easy to fake as scum, day 4 and the end of 3 you've started making a lot of big wall posts. Is there a reason for you doing that when you've previously said you don't like it.

Note this is not intended as a scum accusation it's just something that didn't entirely make sense which stood pit to me and I'd like a reason for.

I don't like to unless I feel it's necessary. It's not something I refuse to do, but after re-reading my entire 1st game back in February, I was putting myself to sleep with some of my overly-long posts. It feels like I'm giving people homework, but if I have a lot of things to say about a person or a particular post, I'd rather do that than break it up into 10 shorter posts.

[Somnus]

If either of you are online let me know, real time interaction helps me sort people.

It's getting kind of late, I'll be online for the next few hours and then I probably won't be around till an hour or so before the deadline so I don't know if I'll vote now or then, but if you have more questions for me ask them soon ish so I'll be able to answer them.

Kind of wish I had pried for more information from Cat on your playstyle while she was still around.

Yeah I'm still wishing she was alive to back me up lol, she would know I'm town.

Explain. Any particular reasons?

As in reasons why she would townread me?

Yes.

[Ryno56]

I'll cut through and make this simple. I know I'm town. Somnus, if you are town, then you've gone very badly wrong. If you are scum, then you're going to great efforts to make a case against me, hoping to convince Goldfish. I'm leaning towards the latter, and it seems like it's working.

If Goldfish is town, they are not really helping... Sorry Goldfish, that's nothing personal, but you haven't really contributed much. I don't really know what sort of a case you have for either of us. If Goldfish is scum, they are riding to an easy win. I can see that being the case.

I wish both of you weren't going to wait until the very end of the deadline to vote. That doesn't help. But I would like to get more of a sense on what Goldfish is thinking.

[Ryno56]

I won't be able to play this game of waiting until the deadline to vote at the last second, which puts me at a disadvantage.

[Somnus]

I'll cut through and make this simple. I know I'm town. Somnus, if you are town, then you've gone very badly wrong. If you are scum, then you're going to great efforts to make a case against me, hoping to convince Goldfish. I'm leaning towards the latter, and it seems like it's working.

If Goldfish is town, they are not really helping... Sorry Goldfish, that's nothing personal, but you haven't really contributed much. I don't really know what sort of a case you have for either of us. If Goldfish is scum, they are riding to an easy win. I can see that being the case.

I wish both of you weren't going to wait until the very end of the deadline to vote. That doesn't help. But I would like to get more of a sense on what Goldfish is thinking.

I never said I was going to wait until the deadline. I was waiting for more content from either of you during eLo and for the most part, it never really happened.

[GoldfishFromTheMoon]

I'll cut through and make this simple. I know I'm town. Somnus, if you are town, then you've gone very badly wrong. If you are scum, then you're going to great efforts to make a case against me, hoping to convince Goldfish. I'm leaning towards the latter, and it seems like it's working.

If Goldfish is town, they are not really helping... Sorry Goldfish, that's nothing personal, but you haven't really contributed much. I don't really know what sort of a case you have for either of us. If Goldfish is scum, they are riding to an easy win. I can see that being the case.

I wish both of you weren't going to wait until the very end of the deadline to vote. That doesn't help. But I would like to get more of a sense on what Goldfish is thinking.

Ouch,
If you are town Ryno I'm sorry if I've seemed unhelpful.

I get that I haven't really got a case, I don't really like writing cases because I feel like I could make a case against anyone if I tried hard enough and I've found the times I make cases i end up convincing myself to miseliminate people.

[GoldfishFromTheMoon]

If either of you are online let me know, real time interaction helps me sort people.

It's getting kind of late, I'll be online for the next few hours and then I probably won't be around till an hour or so before the deadline so I don't know if I'll vote now or then, but if you have more questions for me ask them soon ish so I'll be able to answer them.

Kind of wish I had pried for more information from Cat on your playstyle while she was still around.

Yeah I'm still wishing she was alive to back me up lol, she would know I'm town.

Explain. Any particular reasons?

As in reasons why she would townread me?

Yes.

I don't really have time to go into it now because I'm not sure how relevant it is but I have a particular scum playstyle that cat would recognise.

[GoldfishFromTheMoon]

I won't be able to play this game of waiting until the deadline to vote at the last second, which puts me at a disadvantage.

You're complaining about us not voting yet so if you want us to start voting then lead by example. Asking other people to vote while not doing it yourself is not a great move.

[Somnus]

Give me something though. You don't have to type a novel, but a couple of the traits Cat would recognize and how you tend to play as scum.

[Ryno56]

Goldfish, could you make the case for myself being scum, then make the case for Somnus? What reasons are there for or against? That will help me understand your point of view.

[Ryno56]

I won't be able to play this game of waiting until the deadline to vote at the last second, which puts me at a disadvantage.

You're complaining about us not voting yet so if you want us to start voting then lead by example. Asking other people to vote while not doing it yourself is not a great move.

It's a game of chicken. Scum don't want to vote first, town don't want to vote first. We're all waiting until somebody blinks. I'm holding back at least until I hear your thoughts on the game.

[GoldfishFromTheMoon]

Give me something though. You don't have to type a novel, but a couple of the traits Cat would recognize and how you tend to play as scum.

Ok,

As scum I wouldn't have claimed at E-2, And I probably would have fakeclaimed a PR in that situation (another thing on that point if I was scum with RCE don't you think I would have claimed tracker since I was the first of us to get close to elimination and the scum probably discussed the fakeclaim together)

The ACPA townblock definitely wouldn't have happened with scum!me, it just looks too suspicious and scum me is pretty cautious.

General tone is a thing.

As scum I'm a lot more confident then as town, being hedgy with my reads and randomly going back on stuff is a town trait for me, scum me likes to come up with more made up reads and analysis and then stick to them.

[Somnus]

Give me something though. You don't have to type a novel, but a couple of the traits Cat would recognize and how you tend to play as scum.

Ok,

As scum I wouldn't have claimed at E-2, And I probably would have fakeclaimed a PR in that situation (another thing on that point if I was scum with RCE don't you think I would have claimed tracker since I was the first of us to get close to elimination and the scum probably discussed the fakeclaim together)

The ACPA townblock definitely wouldn't have happened with scum!me, it just looks too suspicious and scum me is pretty cautious.

General tone is a thing.

As scum I'm a lot more confident then as town, being hedgy with my reads and randomly going back on stuff is a town trait for me, scum me likes to come up with more made up reads and analysis and then stick to them.

I'd say that scum doesn't always make the textbook play of claiming tracker in that spot. The most recently completed newbie game, the two mafia were eliminated back to back on Days 1 and 2, and the one on Day 1 claimed VT.

Were your reads hedgy in this game? I'd have to go back and look. I don't recall them being so.

[GoldfishFromTheMoon]

I don't think I ever gave a read on the full playerlist, scum me would have done that, town me wouldn't.