Mod Error Mafia [TM2015] - Game Over

[Iecerint]

Hi everyone!

I was a limited rolecop before the reroll. I could learn if my target's role was normal or not normal. I also knew a vanilla townie existed and was aligned with the town.

I'm kind of intrigued by this because I was a Tracker (just a tracker, no frills), and my flavor implied that i was the only investigative role. But that was probably just silliness.

VOTE: Cooper

Now I will finish reading the game.

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Oh actually legit proposing a who PL day one. He's gonna be a useless fuck and end up getting lynched anyways, let's get it over with today.

VOTE: who

Can you back this up?

It's mostly true from my experience with him.

Despite that, he does intentionally play to win the game (e.g., I was scum with him once and his lurky playstyle let him survive all the way to lylo as the only scum forever).

I was in a game with him in December I think as part of a hydra and he might have been more active, but it was hard to tell who was really posting in the hydra.

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I'll elaborate if I decide it's worth doing.

See, this is what I mean.

Irrationally cagey shit like this is usually town tbf.

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Though, Ceph is kinda playing goofy, so I can get where you're coming from. Maybe it's mostly the new avatar?

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@Ceph.
Are you in a bad mood? You seem needlessly antagonistic compared to the baseline I am used to.

Heh.

[It's intentional.]

Ah.

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Reck, you rolled scum this game eh?

This occurred to me, but if you check his posts you'll notice that he's on mobile.

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Unvote
Vote: Katsuki

The vote for

cooper

copper was other than random, and I don't think much of it anymore, so I'm switching to

my

preferred policy lynch in a scandalous RVS reversion.

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Reck, you rolled scum this game eh?

This occurred to me, but if you check his posts you'll notice that he's on mobile.

Can you explain what occurred to you here?

His posting seemed really pithy and his vote for Cabd seemed more like an attempt to establish gravitas than an attempt to vote someone whom he thought was scum.

But the brevity (and consequent lack of clear motivation behind some of his posts) could also be attributed to mobile posting.

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There have been like 5-6 nerfed investigative roles claimed by now, so it was probably a joke. I'm a little surprised no one else got similar flavor, though.

/shrug

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Yay LLD makes more sense now.

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Ya the salt was intense but whatever, some people are just born that way.

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(It was probably intended to nerf the claimed rolecop.)

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I was a Tracker (just a tracker, no frills)

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I'm going to be V/LA April 3rd - April 8th

I will have internet access, so I doubt it will affect my ability to participate very much.

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I'm not sure about this, but Mala is pretty insistent.

Notscience, could you speak to why you were somewhat demotivated going into this game?

You may decline to answer.

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I'm on vacation, but I'll drop in and say that my team has mentioned that Cabd could be scum, though I don't know how closely they've read. I haven't caught up all the way.

NS, not sure what it means, so maybe you read between lines when there weren't any margin notes. D:

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@NS - I wanted to not bother asking you because I thought copper was already exploring those areas by the time Mala asked, plus I thought there were potentially other reasons that didn't warrant investigation, but Mala insisted.

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Please don't end the day before I return and have a chance to read and make a real post.

That means not before some time Thursday.

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Hey guys, I'm back home late tomorrow, so I'll do a catch-up post at that time. Thanks for not quicklynching.

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I'm back home now. I have to prepare for work tomorrow, but I'll read this game as soon as possible.

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Here's through page 20:

Oh also forgot to mention this in my first posts but I have a role that I will likely never use barring consensus from people I have down as town, so I will be full claiming it when and if it becomes applicable.

I was entering the reread expecting that I would find Cabd scummiest, but this kind of thing makes me think town.

I have no idea who Chandra is.

It concerns me that I've been townbinned so quickly.

I've had you as relatively certain town since like page 2 due to your implied information on the mod list things. I imagine people are cagey about it because they don't want to highlight it. This is also relevant to Cabd treating you and Tier differently.

I figured out that Chandra is Cephrir.

Mollie's 349 is scummy, since it suggests she hasn't erad NS's posts earlier on the page particularly carefully. Weaker because it's Mollie.

Copper and Cephrir had different impressions of Cabd's activity level before he returned to the hgame (363).

I do not really understand everyone thinking that Shos is scum. Shos had been kind of a non-entity up to this point (379).

TierShift is not scum with Shos, because contradicting so many players' read on Shos would be too risky for the sense I have of him this game so far (381).

[I'm drinking a white russian now mmm.]

I think copper is town (389).

Shos always seems a little phlegmatic in games I play with him, re: Ceph's summary of his POV in 399.

Mollie is having fun. This makes me think she might be town after all.

T-Bone may be scum (409-411). EDIT: But 413 was townier. Meh.

@ Rhinox - Lack of participation is probably a relative scumtell for me, but the deal in this case is that I would have had to read the game on my phone, which I wasn't really prepared to do the way I needed to, because my computer was running some stuff for work during the whole break.

If scum have daytalk, Cephrir is not scum with Katsuki (430).

@Ice
What's Mala's read on Mollie?

She hasn't said anything about her. She was suspicious about NS, but hasn't mentioned it again, she said that LLD was town, and on Saturday she said that Shos was scum (though I personally don't get it). She's been out of it for the last few days due to a pet dying.

[Is mollie ever being added to the points charts?]

Katsuki's specificity on shos is nice (458).

And me not reading is apparently scum.

Please demonstrate how it is alignment indicative.

You don't care if your reads are accurate.

P.S. You're also scum for having a shitty reaction to your wagon.

FWIW, as much as I would hate to admit it, Katsuki not reading the game is actually not really all that alignment-indicative.

As town he regularly fakes investigative claims, fucking up games in the process. He also does the same I'M SMART YOU'RE DUMB thing without reading that he appears to be doing here as town. I think you should know this, come to think of it, because the example I was going to provide for you was D1 Inuyasha mafia. The context there was that scum had badly fucked up their fakeclaim and were obviously scum, but AP and I had to corral everyone into voting them, and Katsuki came out to try to grandstand on their behalf while showing that he had no idea what was going on in the process.

I remember that he was town that game because after we were killed N1, AP and I played 20 questions from the scumlist that AP received from a Mod, and I cackled for a long time when I realized that Katsuki was literally just fucking around.

(This is the sort of thing that makes Katsuki the preferred policy lynch by a landslide. Not that a policy lynch is necessary or advised really.)

I agree with Reckoner about Cabd tbh (494). But will revisit this if one or both of Shos and Katsuki flip scum later.

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Cabd's 505 is scummy. He delivers on his previously-promised content, but basically ignores any potentially alignment-relevant material from the previous several pages in the process.

Shos's comeback is kinda scummy (esp the score mechanic question in 517). Also, if the score thing is a mechanic that town knows (which makes Cephrir more likely town), that makes this scummier. This is because the score mechanic is potentially something that is a mystery to scum, so it's an easy thing to pivot to if they want to look like they're puzzle-solving. If Cephrir flips scum or we learn that scum had inside info here, this is nullified somewhat.

Not sure why Mollie changed her mind on shos (519), but I guess she's just impressed by the VOLUME and maybe didn't read it much? Which, I still think she's town probably, but that's my take.

Ceph seems to agree with mollie for some reason w/e.

Rhinox is town, or has like extreme tryhard Team Mafia friends and/or scumfriends. This is based on the timestamp business.

Shos trying to crumb makes him look townier (586).

Yeah thinking shos is pretty town now.

(Shos's posts here reminded me of his earlier post about Hated in lylo re: policy re: my previous rant about Katsuki, but w/e.)

I think that what copper says ABOUT shos's posts is a scumtell when applicable (612), but I didn't get the same vibe from shos's posts.

@ copper -- Katsuki would soft a strong role if he had basically anything. His meta of being ridiculous with it is what makes it so low-risk for him. Though he also does randomly claim VT at times.

I have never seen a lylo-less hated modifier. Is this meta on the site now? Maybe mod meta on this, or meta on one of the mods of games on this site? Though I could see Zora do this I guess.

@ Katsuki - I think LLD's vote on you is 100% policy, at least so far as she's explained it. (Mine was from like page 5 so basically the same time.)

Katsuki is rly getting serious now, so good enough.

See so I kinda want to scumread T-Bone largely because I'm townreading or ruling out so much of the playerlist, but I'm not sure about his expressing distance from shos and katsuki. I guess the previous page had some mixed stuff about shos, and Katsuki is probably not getting lynched through his harder soft claims. So meh. I changed my mind.

@NS, what are you implying by saying the LLD/shos interaction bugs you (e.g., one scum, both scum, etc)?

[Iecerint]

Ask mala when she gets back to revisit her read on me, tia.

Will do. She requested replacement yesterday, though she was kinda vague about it. I don't think she's followed the thread. But I will ask her.

katsuki was in that game?

Yes, though he was replaced by Oversoul subsequent to our death N1. I didn't notice this because we died N1. I get like really really angry when Katsuki does Katsuki stuff, so I remember him very vividly.

icerink was her scumread before or after your question or both

It wasn't "Iec NS is scum pressure him this way." It was like "Iec notty is demotivated this could be due to lots of things, but one possibility is that he wasn't scum and now he is, try asking about it."

Then I said I would find a way to ask about it if I could do it safely (i.e., because I wasn't sure if your demotivation could be related to some other aspect of a town role (whether Hated was part of it or otherwise)). Then she emphasized that I should definitely do it. By that time you were posting more because copper was prodding you a little, so I said I would just assess you based on how that played out. Mala insisted that copper's pressure was different from what she was suggesting. Then I finally agreed to do what she asked.

But, it was way before my question.

Looking back now, she also suggested that if you were scum who was demotivated, it was likely that you were not satisfied with your scumfriends. This was in a separate post that she made that I missed because most of the post is about general stuff rather than stuff specific to this game. Both those posts were Thursday.

there was a big lack of anything regarding me in that post Iece yup

This game in general has a big lack of anything regarding you tbf. You rival me in that regard, and you weren't even on vacation, though you do seem to have had a few fun nights. ^^;

[Iecerint]

Shos is easily scum, but you're very clearly busing him.

And I'm positive that it will be harder to lynch you later than it will be to lynch Shos, so I'm handling this today.

This post in particular jumps out.

It feels like duo-scum.

Gotcha.

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Overall Cabd makes sense as scum, with the nuance that Reckoner fits comfortably into some of the more high-profile potential scumteams, and Cabd is town if Reckoner is scum with them, because I think Cabd had enough negative rhetoric toward him for Reck to actually shift the wagons Cabd's direction.

T-Bone is the only other player who never really had a moment that made me go "Oh, that person is town." At least, not in a big way. But this does mean that at least someone that I had a moment like that for is scum. So there's that.

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Then you are a star active-lurker. Other than the Cabd bits (and apologizing for not being able to develop Cabdread due to Cabdlurk), I mainly remember intentions to post and references to fun drinking. And I guess some brief topical commentary.

But the only event that you created that I can remember (and that I think I did reference but I guess not?) was the Cabd stuff.

[Iecerint]

Unvote: Vote: Cabd

Katsuki's claim became too hard for me. Cabd is the most likely person to be scum. Shos did a few too many townie things for me to vote for him at this point I think. TierShift/T-Bone are possible dark horse candidates.

@NS: Mala said that the stuff that was bothering her isn't bothering her anymore. I think it was based mostly on your demotivation.

She responded pretty quickly after I asked, so I don't think she re-read anything. This suggests that you've been that way for awhile for her. I think this was based on all pre-copper stuff.

Pedit: awkward that Cabd is kinda ill during the escalation, but my vote is based mostly on content he's produced rather than present lurkiness, so.

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Katsuki's claim became too hard for me.

._.

?

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One thing that confuses me about Cephrir is that I feel like he would have picked up on players townreading him for crumbing knowledge about the score system, but then he expressed paranoia about people townreading him.

Like, I assume he crumbed it with knowledge that it would probably make people townread him. Which is fine. But then it's weird to get paranoid about people townreading you.

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If scum have knowledge of the score mechanic, I think they would probably infer that having knowledge of the score mechanic is a scum-specific phenomenon and would not imply knowledge of it in-thread. Further, it would not be that exactly one player appeared to have special knowledge of the mechanic.

It is possible that your scumteam could have recognized this and decided to have one player gambit appropriately, but probably less likely than the straightforward case.

You could also be some kind of 3rd party, but I doubt it because it would warp expected winrates too much for the overall Team Mafia scoring system.

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I assume he voted you based on an inference that my ONE WEIRD TRICK ABOUT CEPHRIR post was inviting pressure on you. Mostly it was just intended to address that you'd alluded to confusion on that point enough that I thought it might warrant clearing-up (whether because you didn't intend to imply it, or because your reads are being warped by something easy to understand). But he is welcome to correct me.

One thing that did occur to me about hyposcumCephrir is that it's possible that you did not intend to imply such knowledge as scum, and then simply neglected to correct people's inference. But I don't know why scumCephrir would express paranoia in that case, particularly.

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I don't think you're scum.

My point is that even the circumstances that allow you to be scum are pretty zany.

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(Which is probably relevant to people rationally townreading you in this game.)

(Which might be relevant to how you read players.)

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well I know how sneaky iceyrent can be

Mollie, when have you played with scumIec, other than Reckoning III meatworld games?

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I don't remember the one that isn't myko's game, but I guess I believe you.

The myko game was kinda unusual because I was culted that game.

I asked because I think I had to replace out of some recent games with you, so you may have remembered my alignment incorrectly, and I couldn't think of such games.

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Spoiler: only for mollie, mostly off-topic

One that AP modded (Sabotage 2.0) and one that dram modded. I think you were only in the former.

My point re: the culted game was more that I think my cult behaviors differ from my scum behaviors.

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Icerint, the fact you haven't asked Mala about Mollie is noted.

1. I didn't see your question; I've asked it now.

2. What on earth are you inferring to have been the scum motivation in neglecting to ask Mala about mollie?

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1. Mollie wasn't even in the game yet when all of Mala's substantive comments about this game took place, so she obviously wouldn't be in a position to comment on her.

I suppose I did respond to it; I didn't remember it. I have no motive to lie about this as scum, so your inference that I am intentionally lying about this seems pretty weird to me. Mollie is relatively obvtown IMO.

2. This is a crappy inference for the same reason that inferring that I intentionally lied about having forgotten about you asking Mala about mollie is crappy.

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Additional context here could probably clarify the chronology, but I'm not sure about how that's regulated.

I am conferring with Magua.

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1. I said you lied, not that you lied as scum

Is English your second language? Not being rude, serious question. A lie isn't the same thing as a mistake. It explicitly connotes intentionality (and scumminess).

You can confirm the timeline of Mala's comment by looking at my stuff with NotScience.

Taking it from your new/clarified intent (Iec forgot because he doesn't want to develop reads on a scumfriend), I don't really think I would be more likely to forget to ask Mala about my hypo-scumfriend if asked. That would probably stick out more and make me remember it better, if anything.

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I agree that scum can sometimes interact awkwardly and/or not interact. That idea is kinda relevant to some of how I've thought about certain slots in this game (e.g., Reck's reference to Cabd when shos/katsuki were dominant).

IMO, that is pretty different than me and mollie this game because I have referenced her behavior multiple times (cf., my catch-up comments) and she has referenced me a few times (albeit mostly cuz NS asked her to IIRC). I am skeptical that the "ignoring-one-another" tell you're referencing applies when scum are explicitly ASKED to interact (as in the case if you asking me to ask Mala about mollie), but we can agree to disagree, I guess.

FWIW I don't have any personal insight into whether Mala reads mollie well. The only person I know of who I know has said he can read mollie well is Nacho. In the game I played with the two of them he intimidated her into making a crappy fakeclaim. I think the only game I've played with both mala and mollie was the Reckoning III invitational, and the only thing* from Mala's slot that I remember from that game is that she was I think hydra'd with Tammy, who had a total meltdown re: mollie and was grossly inappropriate. I don't even remember for certain that Mala was the other head of that hydra, though. It's the one that's named for Tammy's cat. This is relevant to the idea that I would feel awkward about asking Mala in particular.

* I now also remember that slot's very clever hypoclaim, which I later used in the game with Nacho and mollie. ^_^

[Iecerint]

I want to make sure I understand what you originally meant by "lying"

1. You replied earlier that Mala hadn't given a read on Mollie in particular, so you did see the question,

don't lie

.

To me, this reads like you are inferring intentionality on my part (like, it reads like you are scolding me for lying). Am I mistaken?

[Iecerint]

1. I didn't see your question; I've asked it now.

Thinking about this more, I think what happened is that I originally interpreted your question as a question about the status of Mala's commentary on mollie, which is how I answered it originally ("What did she say?" "She didn't say anything" vs. "Please ask her about it!" "This is what she said:").

Then you said that I never asked Mala about mollie, which confused me.

Then I looked at your iso, ctrl+f Mala, found the question without the context of my response, asked Mala, posted that I had missed it before (because your complaint that I hadn't followed-through had given it new context).

So, I "forgot" about it because I didn't interpret it as a request to ask her something originally (but instead as a "What did she say about this other thing at that time"-type question).

That's the result of my introspection as I sit waiting for MATLAB to finish running. D:

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I agree that scum can sometimes interact awkwardly and/or not interact. That idea is kinda relevant to some of how I've thought about certain slots in this game (e.g., Reck's reference to Cabd when shos/katsuki were dominant).

IMO, that is pretty different than me and mollie this game because I have referenced her behavior multiple times (cf., my catch-up comments) and she has referenced me a few times (albeit mostly cuz NS asked her to IIRC). I am skeptical that the "ignoring-one-another" tell you're referencing applies when scum are explicitly ASKED to interact (as in the case if you asking me to ask Mala about mollie), but we can agree to disagree, I guess.

FWIW I don't have any personal insight into whether Mala reads mollie well. The only person I know of who I know has said he can read mollie well is Nacho. In the game I played with the two of them he intimidated her into making a crappy fakeclaim. I think the only game I've played with both mala and mollie was the Reckoning III invitational, and the only thing* from Mala's slot that I remember from that game is that she was I think hydra'd with Tammy, who had a total meltdown re: mollie and was grossly inappropriate. I don't even remember for certain that Mala was the other head of that hydra, though. It's the one that's named for Tammy's cat. This is relevant to the idea that I would feel awkward about asking Mala in particular.

* I now also remember that slot's very clever hypoclaim, which I later used in the game with Nacho and mollie. ^_^

mala was part of eaglekit (desp/mala hydra) who faked a cop guilty on me in the reckoning invitational, I think you are thinking of mina/tammy (waffles).

I had thought Desperafo was with kittymo, but yep, I mixed her up with Mina.

Mala is behind in her game and declined to comment for now, may get to it later.

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@Rhinox - Well, I guess you can either infer that I faked it or that I'm super town. I don't remember the discussion and do vaguely recall that being in the rule set, but was only thinking about how Cephrir's behavior could be read in the moment. I added that because I thought broadly about what was possible.

I normally only play mafia games where the structure is unknown, so I do not normally reason with certainty about such things on D1. As town I like to post without reviewing the thread because I think it can lead to organic towntells based on ignorance.

Meta-wise, I have made similar errors as town recently, albeit later in the game when the likely number of scum had been changed by flips. As scum I did something similar intentional very late game in Dynasty Warriors. I might be more likely to miss the in-thread discussion as scum, but I'd definitely know the distribution as scum.

The town game was Coyote's Zodiac mafia I think. Not equivalent circumstances, but it's hard to replicate current circumstances obviously.

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@Rhinox - Well, I guess you can either infer that I faked it or that I'm super town. I don't remember the discussion and do vaguely recall that being in the rule set, but was only thinking about how Cephrir's behavior could be read in the moment. I added that because I thought broadly about what was possible.

I normally only play mafia games where the structure is unknown, so I do not normally reason with certainty about such things on D1.

As town I like to post without reviewing the thread because I think it can lead to organic towntells based on ignorance.

Meta-wise, I have made similar errors as town recently, albeit later in the game when the likely number of scum had been changed by flips. As scum I did something similar intentional very late game in Dynasty Warriors. I might be more likely to miss the in-thread discussion as scum, but I'd definitely know the distribution as scum.

The town game was Coyote's Zodiac mafia I think. Not equivalent circumstances, but it's hard to replicate current circumstances obviously.

I don't see how super town would be a conclusion from this one comment. I mean, if you're scum who didn't read the ruleset you'd know there were 3 of you but you wouldn't know anything about 3rd parties. However, I asked because earlier in the game you also had a "If scum have daytalk..." comment, and well it is also public knowledge that scum have daytalk, and it was also something that was talked about in the thread before you made the comment.

I don't really wanna play the wifom game but the bolded is interesting because if that's how you think as town then it seems reasonable it would also be something you would try to fake as scum. I know when I've played as scum that it was part of my gameplan to try to fake towntells and I can link you to one of my past scumgames where I talked about that in the post game. Normally I wouldn't even acknowledge something like this like when you made the first comment because once the discussion is started it really is nothing but wifom, but the fact that you've done this twice now and the fact that you think 'super town' should be a possible conclusion for the 3rd party comment does have me concerned.

You explicitly asked for my take on it (I guess not mine per se but), and I'm telling you that I think it's a towntell for me. You are free to think whatever you want obvs.

The closest thing I could think of as a time when I subverted this as scum was in the Dynasty Warriors game I mentioned, so I made an effort to give you appropriate scum meta on this, too. In that game there was a miller who flipped as a Wu faction (he forgot to claim miller, lol), and I spent the entire game believing in a mythological Wu faction even as it became obvious that it probably didn't exist (or rather, that if it existed, town was totally fucked). It's not quite the same as here obvs, but that's the closest thing to a willful subversion I can think of.

As scum in general I think I am more likely to confer with scumfriends about this kind of thing before acting because I generally find that the scrutiny that errors bring can be more trouble than they're worth -- especially because as town I'm comfortable making errors because I know I didn't make them for scummy reasons, but as scum any faked errors ultimately had some kind of scum motivation, so I am skeptical that a clever person couldn't parse the difference.

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Did Cabd ever deliver post-fever content? That's kinda what I was waiting for.

But it looks like basically no so.

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I think notscience would be a pretty bad lynch.

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Do you only make them self-vote, or do you control their votes?

Do you have prod-powers over T-Bone forever, or only once?

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I think Cabd's role fits with what I am seeing about this game wrt to setup spec., once again we have a 10-3 setup in a themed game, this heavily implies we are going to have a lot of vanilla-like or. negative utility roles town side and I disagree with the interpretation that this role is naturally scum indicative, that's pretty big BS.

I think he's arguing that the

flavor

is scum indicative, not that the ability itself is.

For example, the flavor of my ability relates to mod errors, but the flavor of Cabd's ability relates to the mod actively fucking with the game.

This would be a bad reason to vote someone if there really were no other reason, but I don't know if that applies right now.

[Iecerint]

I think Ceph, NS, mollie, and I are pretty town.

I have at times thought Rhinox and shos were pretty town. Mala will get mad at me if I push LLD, but my read on her as cooled a little. Mala piped in and said that shos's reads were bad a bit ago, but I think she just meant normal-bad. Katsuki is off the table til D2.

That leaves Cabd, copper, T-Bone, TierShift, Reck as people that I think might be OK to lynch. Cabd is low-risk, low-reward as he has already claimed. I think TierShift might be the most likely scum at this point tbh, mostly because he's kinda really changed his activity level as deadline approaches and he's not a leading wagon. Copper is only down here because his push on me felt poorly-motivated and opportunistic to me (opportunistic because some people had vaguely expressed suspicion on me without voting in the few pages previous to it), but this will be easier to evaluate as we determine whether any of the people who had pressure at that point were scum.

[Iecerint]

@Ice
Poorly motivated? I asked you a question, you still haven't answered, you misremembered the question assuming the most benign interpretation, which at the very least is terrible play when you had 40 or so posts to keep track of, and my "push" did not even include a vote but consisted of asking you what's what... like what?

It was motivated by my not asking Mala about mollie, which in my opinion was pretty goofy.

I'm not sure what question you mean, though I guess you're being replaced now, so I can't get clarification.

Whether you voted for me is immaterial.

@Shos, the pattern of NS's increased activity in the thread seems to be motivated by wanting to solve the game rather than self-preservation. Refer to Tiershift and maybe Cabd for players for whom I think the opposite is true. In Cabd's case his illness may be partly responsible for this, but I think it can't fully account for it, and he also has already fullclaimed.

My list was based on the playerlist in the first Mod post, though I probably would have included myself in the town list either way. I do this pretty standardly, I think. You can refer to any game I replaced into and most other games to get a sense of this if you want (i.e., because I usually do a stream-of-consciousness catch-up plus a summary post when I do).

[Iecerint]

Because he claimed "loldontlynchmetodaybecauserole"

many strong much convince, i know

Ya this basically.

D2 he'll probably say he was roleblocked and ask for an extra day or whatever, whereupon there will be much hand-wringing.

[Iecerint]

Yes, let's lynch a player who is barely here

Not that bad a D1 strat tbf.

[Iecerint]

Lec, what do you think of T-bone?

1. It's an i.

2. I think he's scummy, but not in a dynamic or exciting way that would make me risk lynching him over Cabd. The only player who fits that bill for me is you, because if you flip scum I think we can infer something from your windows of higher activity and lower activity.

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I really really hate that strategy

If town want to lurk their way to a loss, that probably creates a pro-town meta in the long run. We just have to ruin maybe 10-20 games, and we will all find paradise.

@ Shos - Eh, I guess that's kinda similar to what I expressed about TierShift.

I think the difference for me is that T-Bone gives me village idiot vibes and TierShift doesn't. Then again, I guess T-Bone is the one with the Mafia Win banner.

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The only anti-town thing I can think about Ceph is that he went overboard on expressing paranoia to motivate people to explain the townieness and make it maybe unnecessarily salient, but that's just as much on me, so.

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Do you know why the thread was locked yesterday? Because I had caught up and realized that Copper had spoiled another on-going game for me [...]

This makes it more likely that he is town.

Copper's posts were super long-winded and in kinda uncomfortable English at times, so reading them closely enough to infer stuff about ongoing games suggests wanting to puzzle-solve suggests town.

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I don't have any experience I can remember with TierShift, so I'll have to defer to your judgment.

My inference was that TierShift's content patterns might have coincided with whether scumfriends were being pressured, etc.

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What did your avatar used to be? Maybe that would help me.

I think the main thing is your sentence structure, which includes lots of run-ons.

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@ Ceph -- Cabd could be scum and already claimed, so I think you need something compelling if you want to run anyone else up. He doesn't have to be dynamic or interesting anymore.

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I'd also feel more motivated to hunt elsewhere if he looked very invested in scumhunting, but it looks like he's basically just going to lurk and hope another wagon shoots up.

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Not sure what to make of Katsuki's Monday afternoon drunkposting.

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What did your avatar used to be? Maybe that would help me.

I think the main thing is your sentence structure, which includes lots of run-ons.

I had the Hypnotoad avatar for the longest time, and then changed it to it's current one as a jab at mastin who was so upset Marquis and I won the award this year. I'll try and structure sentences better for you? I'm not really planning out what I'm saying or anything, I'm just reacting to what's here.

HYPNOTOAD.

ILU.

Ya it's definitely the avatar. I normally associate your avatar with tons of gravitas and I play with hopes that senpai will acknowledge me.

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I mean your sentence structure was making me think you were town rather than scum so maybe keep on keepin on but thanks!

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Hallowed be thy name.

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Cephrir please stop that it is making me wonder if you are scum with Katsuki and this is all distancing prior to his unstoppable D2 fakeclaim.

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Katsuki being a butthole doesn't really mean he's scum.

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Because he claimed "loldontlynchmetodaybecauserole"

many strong much convince, i know

Ya this basically.

D2 he'll probably say he was roleblocked and ask for an extra day or whatever, whereupon there will be much hand-wringing.

he already proved his role

We're talking about Katsuki.

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I'm nit pushing you or any non-Cabd player because it's D1 and Cabd claimed and that should be it unless someone crumbs a daycop or innocent on Cabd.

Policy has absolutely changed the site meta before.

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If Cabd is town be basically only has himself to blame, and he shouldn't sign up for games he can't play (re: I lurk in Chicago).

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@Eddie -- for the main two wagons, Cabd has a kinda sketchy start and has lurked since then, perhaps partially due to illness, while Katsuki has been cagey and then /self-meta'd his cageyness as indicating a town alignment, but he also crumbed some kind of role that he indicated should survive until D2.

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I feel pretty strongly than Cabd is a good lynch at this point.

He should be the pretty clear default lynch and there are substantial attempts to push wagons on other players without a clear differentiating factor and/or whose lynch today has potential issues.

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Practically every lynch today of a dozen of people can be great. you want to lynch cabd only because he has already claimed? who are you SCUMREADS? who do you think will most likely yield a scumflip of, say, {Katsuki, Tbone, cabd}?

I categorically don't want to lynch T-Bone. This is mostly based on his readthrough having been careful enough to pick on copper talking about on ongoing game.

Katsuki might flip scum, but it's not any more likely than Cabd. Katsuki being an ass is just kinda par for the course. Pushing a wagon on him given the softclaim is anti-town. So lynching Katsuki rather than Cabd seems dumb to me, since he's not any more likely to flip scum, and you have the added risk of outing the nature of his role and then lynching Cabd anyway.

Someone you didn't list at all (TierShift) is the most likely to flip scum IMO, maybe more likely than Cabd, but your point (I think it was shos at least) that TierShift is more active and dominant as scum is enough for this not to beat Cabd.

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The T-Bone in this game is pretty different than the hypnotoad I remember, but I guess I haven't played with him in a long time.

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And the main game I remember (Dynasty Warriors) had him as scum with me.

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Of note, that game did include T-Bone having a fake fight with a scumfriend. But that wasn't initiated until like D3, and the circumstances were unique because both of them were under a lot of suspicion and the game mechanics allowed them to duel one another, such that scum would get a bonus from the "lynch" of the other player. So the fight was used tactically to justify an "emotional" duel with the other player. But something like that isn't clearly motivated here, so it's not the same.

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Iece you're doing this odd thing where you're doing your absolute hardest to always come back to me as your default no matter how many other questions or things other people point out. Why on earth?

No one has actually indicated any reasons that you are town. I have been pretty clear about why I disagree with the other wagons that people have proposed.

The fact that there is resistance to your wagon increases rather than decreases the chance that you are scum.

I don't blame you for voting for Katsuki.

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Like, when someone that everyone kind of agrees is scummy DOESN'T get lynched, but random flashwagons keep appearing, that is a red flag.

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I think this is going into a 1v1 between cabd and kats. I want kats dead more, although I think cabd will be the winning lynch eventually :/

Do you actually think Cabd is town?

There is no actual dichotomy between Cabd and Katsuki, so there is no 1v1. Rhetorical use of that term is annoying.

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Iec, I stopped liking your opinions on the last page as much as I was liking them before. Please go back!

I have this feeling about sundry

idiots

people who make idiotic decisions, e.g., randomly wanting to out 2-3 claims before lynching Cabd.

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Is he scummy though

Is he actually

I think the wagon was too easy in the first place and I realize I contributed to it

The towniest thing about Cabd is that he got sick and I feel kind of sorry for him for being sick and being lynched. His actual participation in the game has been scummy. A thing that I remember from my readthrough is when someone was suspicious of something, he promised a response, and then he gave a response post SPECIFICALLY TO THAT POINT like a day later while ignoring the actual thread. He was focused on appeasing perceived threats rather than evaluating the thread for content.

The wagon isn't easy when he won't die.

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How does that work in T-Bone's favor?[...]Usually, when actual ongoing games are mentioned, this results in a direct modkill[...]

The possibility that he was going for a modkill on copper is something that I had not considered. That is a reasonable point.

Regarding my thinking, basically I think that conscientiousness is townie. It's the same reason I got a townread on Rhinox awhile ago for attention to timestamps. Lack of conscientiousness is scummy (cf., Katsuki, Cabd, Reckoner), because having a lazy relationship to the content in the thread is what one is predisposed to do when they are scum and can't be arsed to fake-scumhunt.

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Is he scummy though

Is he actually

I think the wagon was too easy in the first place and I realize I contributed to it

The towniest thing about Cabd is that he got sick and I feel kind of sorry for him for being sick and being lynched. His actual participation in the game has been scummy. A thing that I remember from my readthrough is when someone was suspicious of something, he promised a response, and then he gave a response post SPECIFICALLY TO THAT POINT like a day later while ignoring the actual thread. He was focused on appeasing perceived threats rather than evaluating the thread for content.

The wagon isn't easy when he won't die.

The other towniest thing about Cabd is that Reckoner and Katsuki think he is scum. <_<

Awk.

Still, 100% of the reasons to townread Cabd are based on either his absence of other players. And other players' actions can also be interpreted as indicating scumCabd (though it would mean that at least some of my major townreads are scum, etc).

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How does that work in T-Bone's favor?[...]Usually, when actual ongoing games are mentioned, this results in a direct modkill[...]

The possibility that he was going for a modkill on copper is something that I had not considered. That is a reasonable point.

Actually this is an extremely reasonable point.

I am seriously considering being a sinful person and flashwagoning a conscientious townread.

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I've asked my kabal.

Whether he's town for noticing or scum for how he used it after noticing.

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Conscientiousness tells might be weaker in team mafia.

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I meant cabal.

We know he didn't just skim for his own stuff, though, based on the ongoing thing.

Unless the ongoing thing involved him, I guess.

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I don't think it's a low blow. It's a reasonable strategy. Same with faking V/LA (e.g., similarly, while I think Cabd likely did have some kind of illness, I am skeptical that it fully accounts for his total absence while he was a major topic of discussion).

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I mean, heck, "respected" players on the site like mastin have guides that basically advocate tactical replacement.

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(Which IMO is way more inappropriate than noticing someone else's violation of site rules and using them to your advantage.)

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It's my understanding that site regulations about that kind of thing are that they don't modkill on the grounds that it creates a perverse incentive.

But I was recently in a game where the mods decided to modkill people for EXTREMELY trivial stuff. So maybe that has changed.

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When you declare yourself v/la to try and strategically avoid the game is different, because now you are using outside influences on the game to influence it, and that is against the spirit of the game, unsportsmanlike, and all that stuff.

I'm not talking about faking V/LAs. For example, I am not at all suggesting that Cabd is faking an illness -- I think it's extremely likely that he had an illness, that it is correlated with reduced posting patterns sitewide, etc. Hence, I have 0% interest in Cabd's stool samples; I am sure he had E. coli or whatever.

However, there's a sliding scale of V/LAs. There's V/LA where you're on vacation, but have great internet access. There's V/LA where you have the fire-poops and can't function normally, but can post on a computer. There's V/LA where you are inside a volcano doing science and you absolutely aren't going to post at all.

If you are in a high-pressure position in-game, I think you are generally more motivated to "waste" your vacation or suffer during fire-poops and check-in periodically, especially in the intermediate types of V/LAs. This doesn't mean that you're a bad person the times when you'd rather enjoy the vacation or just rest and get better -- it just means the game circumstances were not the sort that would motivate you into extraordinary action. Hence, I don't see it as a personal attack. There's nothing "moral" about playing the game while you're sick or enjoying life or whatever.

Interpreting how a player posts during a V/LA -- just like interpreting how a player posts under pressure or after pressure has dissipated -- is part of playing the game.

Seeking Modkills is not valid either. I don't believe in 'win-at-all-costs'. Modkills are meant as a punishment to a player who breaks rules, not as an extra kill mechanic for scum (or town). That once again falls under unsportsmanlike conduct and has no place in mafia.

Modkills are part of the game whether we like it or not. Lately, they have felt more like part of the game than you or I might like, but that's neither here nor there. Given that something is part of the game, I think it's impossible to play to your wincon and be in the game while being willfully ignorant of those types of interactions. So I think being mindful of such things just marks you (or whomever) as a savvy player rather than an unethical one.

Anyway, being careful enough to notice the thing in the first place is still a towntell. And I doubt a Team Mafia partner would have noticed it on your behalf in this case, since you noticed it because it specifically related to you. This is relevant because a Team Mafia partner noticing it is what would reduce the town-relevance of conscientiousness.

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NB: There's a bit of hypocrisy on this front on my part, because I had a V/LA this phase during which I didn't follow the game very closely. I had internet access, but only via phone, but I did keep up with the social dimensions of the site.

People inferred that I was scum during my absence to a certain extent, and I didn't throw a fit and irrationally take it personally.

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Like, if town would stop having meltdowns, it would be a lot easier to identify the feigned outrage.

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T-Bone doesn't think Shos is scum; he was just being OUTRAGED by the TRULY OUTRAGEOUS modkill implications.

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I mean, I'm pretty sure he legit said as much.

But it's an OK question tho!

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This game is pretty high on content.

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It's notscience iirc.

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I assume he has a reason for the degree of softing he did.

If he doesn't, you can evaluate it when he claims.

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Let's lynch Cabd please.

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I assume he has a reason for the degree of softing he did.

If he doesn't, you can evaluate it when he claims.

I havent been noticing at all, actually; but either way, ive crumbed falsely many times as scum

Dude, I have personally alluding to his crumbing like 100 times as a rationale for the 11th hour push on him being dumb.

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also theres this thing called a scum roleblocker that makes this play really awful

I even brought this up as the corollary.

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Is it possible iece is a lyncher for me or something? That's about the only way this shit makes sense.

lol

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Better question is whether Reck has a post restriction.

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Corollary meaning like side-point from something I already said. The corollary is that the phantom roleblocker will show his head if he is scum.

Allude means to refer to indirectly, as when you are talking about something sensitive.

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I can't help you with the other stuff, other than that you should probably read the posts of players you want to lynch. It's not like Katsuki has terribly dense ones.

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BUT LMAO EVEN REROLL COULDNT KEEP ME FROM DRAWING AN AWESOME ROLE

ill probably try and find a replacement because its important that my role stays alive til D2

Here are relevant Katsuki posts from ages ago.

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I would quote all my commentary on Katsuki's posts, but I have to get on a plane for DC pretty shortly and I still need to pack.

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Yak is his name for me. The first letter in my name is pronounced as a y.

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i'm not actually voting you right now

the reason i'm interested in you claiming is that i don't think there is a role that meets the specifications it would have to for your play to make sense

Do you only play normals or something?

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Please support our troops and lunch Cadb thanks.

I'm literally on a plane atm.

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Lynch not eat

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Not to mention everyone seems to call him Yakarint so I just joined along

It's yekerint. The first vowel is the vowel in egg.

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The time to judge him on that is when he claims.

If he is town, he can evaluate that better than you.

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i feel like you've all forgotten that lynching townies is bad

It's not really that huge a deal on D1 in particular tbf.

Live a little.

That's what makes this silliness so silly.

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The chance of me changing my vote to other than Cabd is 0% @ TBone.

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nop
I'm just a little dazzled at how the hell the katsuki wagon went through.

100% this.

I can't trust you people with anything.

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vote kats

Et tu Cephrir.

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I am intrigued by reck's scrotum.

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Hmm.

Well, if Cephrir is town and Bins flipped town, that means a lot of the last-minute push on Katsuki was town.

Shos/NS/Tiershift are just next to that.

I will process and evaluate.

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Cabd is still the most informative lynch, but scum opting not to push for Katsuki might indicate that both were town and scum were already satisfied with D1 and had emotionally checked-out.

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In which case, someone who vote-parked and didn't really elaborate on his perspective is more likely to be scum.

Which immediately brings to mind Reck more than anyone else.

But I want to glance through again, since this isn't necessarily the kind of thing that makes someone stand out.

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It's also possible that an earlier shift to Katsuki was scum and town just jumped in to hammer after it was inevitable, but my recollection is that Katsuki was not obviously a more "inevitable" lynch than Cabd, so I don't think this is quite as likely because scum would have gotten nervous and pushed it farther toward Katsuki in that case (unless the Katsuki wagon already had 2 scum or something maybe).

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Less likely than baseline after T-Bone's claim, but still possible.

Though they could be scum together. But this seems too inelegant for that.

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Regarding the double-miller thing, the original Theme game had lots of goofy stuff like that IIRC, so I don't think two millers is that implausible.

Katsuki probably neglected to claim that aspect because he had the same impression.

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Cephrir being scum would explain Katsuki being the lynch, but it would also highly imply that Cephrir was scum with Cabd.

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T-Bone, if you had negative results on both Eddie and Cephrir, why did you only reach out to Cephrir?

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You may decline to answer.

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I think I have figured out your intentions now that I have reflected on it.

Answer however you think best.

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highly imply that Cephrir was scum with Cabd.

DINGDINGDINGDINGDING

See, my concern with this is that scumReck is probably going to stick to his talking points on this stuff, so the fact that you endorse that viewpoint makes me more wary of it, even when there's some unrelated circumstantial stuff that's consistent with it.

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Like, my impression is that you think that mainly because you already thought it, rather than that you are actually evaluating who is scum based on what is happening in the game.

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I had not noticed that silly Bins post from yesterday. lol.

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It's not about hypocrisy. The implication is that you are a mafia miller who thought it was unfair that discussion of a mafia miller in the previous game would invite scrutiny into your role.

That's a good response to it, though.

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This kinda sounds to me like scum were NOT on the katsuki wagon, and were bussing cabd

This is a relatively low-probability situation.

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I think Reck's scum

T-Bone is still an option but his handling of his role today really took the edge off my desire to steamroll him

Cabd could be scum still but I've never had strong feelings, he's just not here

Iec seems town, Eddie is town, you (shos) are town, Tier feels townish but I'm not very sure about that, same with Rhinox

LLD made me think she was town at some point but I have no idea why

This is a good post, thanks.

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I think T-Bone is a pretty bad lynch.

I think there is possibly no one I am less interested in lynching.

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EVERY POST CEPHRIR MAKES MAKES ME CRINGE

THEN IG O 'OFHUCK IM BAD AT GAMES' AND I THINK IM WRONG

THEN I FEEL CONVICTION TO PURSEU IT ANYAYWY

I relate, except that I stop at the second line usually.

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T-Bone is pretty obviously town. If he's scum, he's basically cleared Eddie for no reason or tied himself to Eddie after either flips. Neither was necessary. He tried to do something with the piece of information he had something to do with (Cephrir).

Shos has the worst reads in the universe and I'm not sure whether it's because he's scum.

Cephrir had the worst Katsuki vote in the universe and I'm not sure whether it's because he's scum.

Reck's performance totally lacks depth and it's Reck and I'm not sure whether it's because he's scum enjoying the likes of Shos and Cephrir.

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If you can't see a trajectory leading to that vote from me I suggest you may not have read the game.

My recollection of your "trajectory" is basically that you spend the last real-life week of D1 complaining about how much you weren't enjoying or getting into the game.

Whenever I pointed out that Cabd was categorically a better lynch than Katsuki, you would shift the burden of proof to me and ask why

Cabd

was definitely scum.

I mean, Katsuki was kind of antagonistic toward you, like he is wont to be, but I don't really know why that alone would make you do something so irrational. (By irrational, I mean something motivated mostly by anger rather than by who is a good lynch).

When someone points out stuff like the above to you, you complain that people are reading you as if you are stupid.

I think that's a summary of the types of content I remember about you, other than the previous implication that you had knowledge about the mechanic, which turns out to have not been the case.

To your credit, you didn't act "caught" when T-Bone probed you IMO (teammates are more skeptical of this than I am), and you didn't nightkill Bins last night, meaning that you are only scum if you are scum who has a pretty nice PR.

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I was calling him scum quite a lot.

Thanks for that brilliant summary :/

So I just skimmed your iso via ctrl+f katsuki and then ctrl+f kats, and you were actually even more fence-oriented on him than I remembered tbf?

It's possible that the opinions you're talking about are all hidden in pronouns or something, though. It would seem pretty careless to deliberately lie about something like that.

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He's obviously town relative to being the leading wagon in the game.

My comfort with using strong language stemmed from my team using pretty extreme language, which gave me more confidence.

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What is your goal in suggesting that T-Bone is only probably town rather than obviously town?

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Also Eddie didn't answer my question so obvious confirm-bias must be scum.

You are not doing anyone favors by making posts like this.

If I understand you correctly, you know Eddie is town, so there is no need to antagonize him.

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I see.

My inference from your treatment of Cephrir and Eddie had been that Cephrir targeted someone who wasn't the nightkill and that Eddie targeted no one, implying that Eddie was town unless scum have 2 members without a night action.

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Antagonizing people for no reason is why people wanted to lynch Katsuki.

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If someone took no action last night, the chance of their being scum is very low. It would probably only happen if scum only has 1 PR that targets players.

Or if they're a ninja. Which isn't out of the question given that you apparently got multiple targets.

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Cephrir's response I thought implied he had targeted someone.

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I've been deliberately obfuscating what I do or don't know and what I did or didn't do.

Please only continue to do that if you are scum.

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Like, T-Bone could have reasonably come out and said that you didn't target anyone and pushed a lynch on you purely on those grounds.

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You don't know what rolefishing is.

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In games of mafia that are not mountainous, you use night actions to reduce the possibilities of who is scum after night results have been claimed. Or you assess people's reactions after the claim to infer that something might be up. That's not rolefishing.

Further, indicating that someone is rolefishing is the same as indicating that they are scum, since that's an alignment-linked way to characterize the situation.

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Vote: Cabd

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If Cabd is town he should take a hiatus from the game.

If he flips scum, the probability that Cephrir is scum is much higher.

Cabd-scum would be consistent with Cephrir taking no action as scum, because Cabd has a confirmed day action, which probably implies he lacks a night action, so he could perform the kill.

Though you'd think they wouldn't have him perform it the night after he was the alternawagon to town. So that's goofy.

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There was no reason for you to claim not having a night action, just as it was counter-productive to have previously implied you used one last night.

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I find it frustrating because usually lapses like this (well, some of them) indicate a scum alignment, but it's useless when they're so ubiquitous, let alone intentionally performed.

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Cabd, what is your opinion on literally anything?

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Not counting your reads during N1!

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There could be some sort of big scary win-by attrition (Iec/Rhinox/Tier/maybe LLD) scumteam out there, but that's the only scenario that springs to mind where Cabd isn't scum.

^_^

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Unvote; Vote: shos

L-2

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Unvote

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I think a single flip will clear up a lot for me.

I'm content to hang out for a bit for Wisdom's readthrough and Reck/LLD's weekend promises.

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T-Bone is pretty obviously town. If he's scum, he's basically cleared Eddie for no reason or tied himself to Eddie after either flips. Neither was necessary. He tried to do something with the piece of information he had something to do with (Cephrir).

Shos has the worst reads in the universe and I'm not sure whether it's because he's scum.

Cephrir had the worst Katsuki vote in the universe and I'm not sure whether it's because he's scum.

Reck's performance totally lacks depth and it's Reck and I'm not sure whether it's because he's scum enjoying the likes of Shos and Cephrir.

This post has how I still feel about you kinda. Wisdom's point that you were behaving strangely toward your reads was enough to make me want to switch from Cabd to you. It also spells out some other people I have thoughts about. Wisdom changing his mind made me unvote.

Other than Wisdom replacing in, I don't think anything since Tuesday has really changed my view of the game. The main events I remember were lots of people saying that would bring content this weekend.

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A wild LLD appears!

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Wisdom, can you explain the reck read in a way that will convince me?

Reck is the main question mark that makes me feel like the game doesn't make sense as I see it.

If you can't, no need to explain.

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The basis for Wisdom suspecting LLD is not hard to understand at all.

The idea is that Cabd is probably not any townier than null for anyone, so dramatic grandstanding to protect him doesn't make sense from someone without an agenda. People with an agenda are sometimes scum.

If Cabd is town, the agenda is whiteknighting. If Cabd is scum, the agenda is trying to stall at L-1 + additional pressure while Cabd gets back to the thread and they work something out.

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Is Vi involved in the mod team here?

One of Vi's games had a mechanic where dead players could spend currency to give points to living players as a way to indirectly endorse their perspective. Scum could fuck with this by giving points in misleading ways, too.

But I think points changed D1, too, so I guess this theory is out.

Give points to this post as if the theory is in.

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Vote: LLD

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I'm kind of inclined to just go with the ghosts of christmas past.

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No further vote changes. Though they may have used all their juice.

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Nobody up to this point has actually done anything like that and nobody is explaining their push/read on me in anything other than vague conditionals and gut and policy.

Admittedly, 90% of my opinion on your slot relates to it being YOU that occupies the slot.

Your work drama stuff is legit and I can see that having hampered your ability.

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ActionDan is wondering why there was a massclaim in this game, but I haven't gotten there yet.

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Honestly if I didn't like Kagami would just go back to voting Cabd.

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Yeah but this is about my read on you. Your predecessors were scummy, I am scumreading your slot. I feel like you've been towning it up but this thing you have done doesn't make sense to me from a town perspective.

This is concordant with my own opinion about the recent Wisdom-swing.

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I think T-Bone is the least likely player in this game to be scum.

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@ Shos --

No further vote changes. Though they may have used all their juice.

This is referring to the point changes in the vote counts. Awhile ago, Everyone on the Cabd wagon for 4 points and everyone on the T-Bone wagon and one other wagon idr lost 1-3 points.

I made a post that described my theory about the points (dead players grant them) based on a high-profile game Vi did once and said GIVE ME POINTS IF THIS IS ACCURATE. Points did not change.

Juice being used up meant maybe the point-givers can only provide N points per phase or something. If they spent them all on the Cabd wagon thing, there aren't any left to endorse particular theories.

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also do tell me what doesn't make sense in my "swing" since you agree with tbone

I have gone over this ad nauseum during this day-phase. Mainly it's for how he used his information at the start of the day. Though, now that I mention that, it's slightly goofy that he would still scumread you despite that result. I had forgotten that you were Eddie his result target until just now.

My recollection is that you were the one who went so far as to say "T-Bone is obviously town, just read his posts" earlier today and I was like "Oh, thank god, a sane person joined this game" (I haven't rechecked, so maybe it was someone else). I think you were on LLD at the time. Since your focus has shifted twice. That's fine and I guess it's your meta; even though you play a lot I don't remember playing with you before this game much, so I wasn't prepared for it.

My thought process was that I went to the most recent page upon waking up this afternoon, saw the thread, noticed that you were suddenly pushing T-Bone of all people, and groaned a little. Then I started reading. I'm not done reading.

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Nobody up to this point has actually done anything like that and nobody is explaining their push/read on me in anything other than vague conditionals and gut and policy.

Admittedly, 90% of my opinion on your slot relates to it being YOU that occupies the slot.

Your work drama stuff is legit and I can see that having hampered your ability.

Yeah, I mean... just to elaborate on my real life circumstances, this game

began

the day after I got laid off from my job. I posted pretty frequently for the first... week or so? But then between constantly going to job interviews and being home for Easter/dealing with family and putting our resumes and the general "I am worthless" depression that accompanies losing a job, I just lost my way. (Plus... my team has given almost ZERO attention to this game as opposed to some of the others, which has left me pretty much soloing this right now.)

Then, I started my new job last week, and was just not prepared for the dramatic mental toll it would take on me while I adjust. Trying to get back to it now.

ActionDan is wondering why there was a massclaim in this game, but I haven't gotten there yet.

Is Dan pretending to read but not actually reading and thinking that the list of claims from last game is actually a massclaim in this game? Classic Daniel.

Honestly if I didn't like Kagami would just go back to voting Cabd.

Wait, why did Kagami want you off Cabd?

Yes, I legit hadn't made the connection between this game and your personal life until maybe a week ago, and I still kind of periodically forgot about it while evaluating you unless I reflected carefully and remembered. It differs significantly from Cabd's approach, where he'd report in on having an illness or the pressures of living in Chicago and being employed every time someone called him out.

Yes, Dan is apparently pretending to read. I glanced at my team thread before reading through this one and posted here after seeing the top page and maybe starting glancing through the earliest ones.

And yeah, just referring to the fact of Kagami replacing in.

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@iecerint But do you agree with tbone that my shifts dont make sense from town? Or do you just find them odd?

Not scummy. More like they make me angry kind of, or maybe more like disappointed.

Disappointed because I thought you had a perspective similar to mine, but now it seems like your approach is just kind of haphazard and I just liked what appeared to be your perspective.

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I don't remember playing with you before this game

also yeah, unless you have an alt we haven't played together before

Someone from 2009-2011 also used an L avatar, so I associate you with him.

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Unvote; Vote: Cabd

L-2

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His response to me saying I hope he's scum so I can lynch him is to immediately start discrediting me and calling me scum.

His "reasons" for targeting me http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 30523(121) were really shallow [see response in (146)]... after this takedown of his post, he says all he really wanted was for me to admit it was early D1.

Supposedly, that was the thrust of his push against me. And then... outta nowhere... later... shitty reasonless vote!

Since then, nothing. He has reiterated a desire to lynch me, but has yet to actually put a solid reason behind his vote (not that I've seen). Now, his voice is just one of many, joining a choir of reasonless parrots.

I'm town, and I'm pretty goddamn confident the swell of people shouting that I'm scum without actually moving on it means 1) it's an easy, agreeable wagon to hide behind because I'm lurking, and 2) scum are just setting their sights on juicier targets first before rolling me up as the free mislynch later.

I agree that Cephrir is really scummy. Basically the only reason I am not 100% on the Ceph wagon are points-knowledge (but he admitted he made that up, claimed intent being avoiding others fishing for who knew, admittedly no obvious scum motive in claiming to have made it up) and T-Bone's claim that he took no action last night.

[Iecerint]

Ceph-wagon in the metaphorical sense I guess, as there is no literal Ceph wagon.

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His response to me saying I hope he's scum so I can lynch him is to immediately start discrediting me and calling me scum.

His "reasons" for targeting me http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 30523(121) were really shallow [see response in (146)]... after this takedown of his post, he says all he really wanted was for me to admit it was early D1.

Supposedly, that was the thrust of his push against me. And then... outta nowhere... later... shitty reasonless vote!

Since then, nothing. He has reiterated a desire to lynch me, but has yet to actually put a solid reason behind his vote (not that I've seen). Now, his voice is just one of many, joining a choir of reasonless parrots.

I'm town, and I'm pretty goddamn confident the swell of people shouting that I'm scum without actually moving on it means 1) it's an easy, agreeable wagon to hide behind because I'm lurking, and 2) scum are just setting their sights on juicier targets first before rolling me up as the free mislynch later.

I agree that Cephrir is really scummy. Basically the only reason I am not 100% on the Ceph wagon are points-knowledge (but he admitted he made that up, claimed intent being avoiding others fishing for who knew, admittedly no obvious scum motive in claiming to have made it up) and T-Bone's claim that he took no action last night.

These + the angels giving Cabd wagon points make me prefer Cabd.

[Iecerint]

Other than Cabd and Ceph, who else?

pedit: @Iecerint

Probably TierShift. I've actually been scumreading him basically all game and only put it aside because someone (shos?) told me that he has a scummy meta when town.

NS for darker horse, if only due to lack of activity.

The validity of lack of activity tells today will be clearer when the alignment of high-drama wagons is resolved, which leads me away from wanting to lynch TierShift even when I get more skeptical of shos's perspectives.

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tier's low content is actually town indicative. he's town leader when scum. but the case is not the low content - the case is the intentional lurking and appearing

In retrospect, his actual attitude toward the content is more ambivalent, but I took this as nullifying my concerns. I think he says something else in another post, too.

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If Ceph actually is scum, it opens up the possibility that T-Bone could simply be lying about Ceph's action. This may become clear is Ceph ever flips and has an action.

T-Bone's claim still seems high-risk for no reason, though (e.g., above).

T-Bone is not someone I would want to lynch today.

[Iecerint]

Nobody up to this point has actually done anything like that and nobody is explaining their push/read on me in anything other than vague conditionals and gut and policy.

Admittedly, 90% of my opinion on your slot relates to it being YOU that occupies the slot.

Your work drama stuff is legit and I can see that having hampered your ability.

Yeah, I mean... just to elaborate on my real life circumstances, this game

began

the day after I got laid off from my job. I posted pretty frequently for the first... week or so? But then between constantly going to job interviews and being home for Easter/dealing with family and putting our resumes and the general "I am worthless" depression that accompanies losing a job, I just lost my way. (Plus... my team has given almost ZERO attention to this game as opposed to some of the others, which has left me pretty much soloing this right now.)

Then, I started my new job last week, and was just not prepared for the dramatic mental toll it would take on me while I adjust. Trying to get back to it now.

ActionDan is wondering why there was a massclaim in this game, but I haven't gotten there yet.

Is Dan pretending to read but not actually reading and thinking that the list of claims from last game is actually a massclaim in this game? Classic Daniel.

Honestly if I didn't like Kagami would just go back to voting Cabd.

Wait, why did Kagami want you off Cabd?

Yes, I legit hadn't made the connection between this game and your personal life until maybe a week ago, and I still kind of periodically forgot about it while evaluating you unless I reflected carefully and remembered. It differs significantly from Cabd's approach, where he'd report in on having an illness or the pressures of living in Chicago and being employed every time someone called him out.

Yes, Dan is apparently pretending to read. I glanced at my team thread before reading through this one and posted here after seeing the top page and maybe starting glancing through the earliest ones.

And yeah, just referring to the fact of Kagami replacing in.

Additional context here that occurred to me -- the connection occurred to me while I was in DC on a subway.

Potentially gleanfromable idk.

[Iecerint]

When you are scum and someone asks what action you took, you sometimes panic and name a plausible target (e.g., because you assume that town must have some kind of positive track result). This ends in you claiming contrary to the result and being caught. I inferred that this was what T-Bone was attempting.

One weird thing is that he did this only to Cephrir. At the time, I assumed this was because only Cephrir took an action. But he later claimed that neither of them took an action. Weirderer, Cephrir IMPLIED that he had taken an action (though not 100%) and T-Bone didn't jump on it. Though Cephrir's relevant content (something like "Why would you ever do that given what the answer is?") could just be saying "Why do that when you know I didn't target anyone?"

He since claimed that he did it only to Cephrir because he was more likely to get a good result on Cephrir (which I assumed meant Cephrir took an action unlike Eddie, but was apparently actually just a reference to Cephrir's activity level).

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Like I said, after being rung up to L-2 yesterday, I expected to be rung up today and decided to out my information. And one of the things I did was test Ceph with a vague claim to see if he would scum-panic or not. Like I don't understand how that is not clear and where anyone is having trouble understanding. I'm certainly not going to let myself get lynched knowing these things.

Meh, it was pretty unnecessary concern on your part IMO. Today was going to be about assessing the alternawagon (Cabd) and how in the hell Katsuki ended up getting lynched.

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Why did you fish me given the result I know you got?

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My inference from that at the time was that Cephrir had taken an action (unlike Eddie), which was why you pressured Cephrir, but Cephrir had targeted someone that implied his alignment was town, so he was indignant.

The reality is that no one targeted anyone.

Which means Cephrir (and Wisdom) are probably town unless they are a ninja or the scum have 2 goons. Or T-Bone is scum with them.

[Iecerint]

X-shot is also possible, that's true.

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I think it was worth me pointing out 'these players didn't do the kill', but I can't make the inference that they are more likely one alignment over the other.

The chance of their being scum is lower just with that, because there is one scum slot that they cannot inhabit. It drops more than that when you add the inference that scum PRs take a targeted action that isn't the kill, but like you point out there are exceptions that keep this from being absolute.

Pedit: @Wisdom - Something like that would functionally fit into my "2 goons" scenario. The logic is just that scum night-PRs and scum killers target people, so the type of scum remaining is less than the baseline. It applies to your slot, too.

[Iecerint]

Just reread the start of D2, because you clearly missed the main important event today.

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GreyICE, I would agree with you a lot more if the original set-up hadn't had a miller. Also, he DID suggest Supah Sekret Powahs re: knowledge of the point system (which he's since said he doesn't have), though not related to miller.

Cephrir did have a pretty townie early game for sure in terms of activity and so on.

Anyway, I don't want to lynch Cephrir for boring nightaction-probability reasons, so I'm not really going to dispute current actions on Cephrir with you.

[Iecerint]

Just reread the start of D2, because you clearly missed the main important event today.

Care to summarize?

The posts that led Shos to ask me to remind him about the start of D2 already WERE a summary. Just read my "today" iso and you'll get it.

Basically T-Bone claimed null-track on Cephrir and Eddie=Wisdom in a way that implied otherwise on Cephrir at first, but was not inconsistent with null-tracks. There's slight weirdness on treating Cephrir and Eddie asymmetrically given identical results, but he justified it by Cephrir's higher activity level.

[Iecerint]

I inferred track because he used language like "didn't perform the kill" and "null result," but I don't remember him actually using the T word I guess.

T-Bone, if there is no reason for being cagey (e.g., variance in ideal scum messing-with depending upon your claim), it is better to lock yourself into the specifics now.

[Iecerint]

STOP FUCKING MISREPPING ME

The dramatic irony is real.

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Ryoukai.