Newbie 617 (Over!)

[Darox]

/comfirm

[Darox]

Vote: Bazza

cause Bazza is Australian slang.

I also think Mike is acting rather sinister. You know they must be evil if they have a mad scientist laugh!

[Darox]

caf19, Bazza-Scumfinder, mike-zim, and Qman have not posted since the game began.

But it was the weekend, so give them some leeway.

Votecount:

Brandi [2] (clammy, Armlx)
Mike-zim [1] (Brandi)
Clammy [1] (Angelmouse)

Not Voting [5] (Darox, caf19, Bazza-Scumfinder, Mike-zim, Qman)

[Darox]

Bazza and Qman still AWOL.

Unvote, Vote: Qman

Lets get this bandwagon rolling, maybe we might hear something from him.

[Darox]

Just got home. Memorial day weekend is teh fun.

More when I'm functional

Sorry, forgot that.
However, you didn't exactly say much in that post, so it wasn't totally unjustified.

I think prodding Bazza is a good idea.

[Darox]

Well i still cant see anyone suspicious. Damn it

How do you detect who is who?

FOS Clammy

very quick to make me look bad. but i am not sure if you are scum will keep an eye on it!

Clammy didn't vote for you, and asked a perfectly acceptable question, and you started getting defensive, and continue to do so after the incident had passed.

I'm not saying your scum, you could just be a jumpy townie, but I'll be watching.

Wrong play, let the mod sort it out in the case of people who just aren't posting unless they are active elsewhere on the site.

I had no intention of getting Qman even as far as -2, I wanted to see if I could get a rise out of him and spark some discussion.

[Darox]

While I agree with armlx that it is sometimes in the interest of the town to keep certain secrets safe, I am curious as to why he is so certain that mike-zim is innocent this early in the game.

anyhow from the posts i dont have a vote yet will wait to see how things unfold!!

Well i still cant see anyone suspicious. Damn it

How do you detect who is who?

To me, that looks more like a scum fishing for a safe wagon than any pro town playing.
Not only that, but he seemed to get rather defensive over the implied suspicious expressed by clammy that he was trying to lurk.

Active?

Why would i not want to look active? i thought the whole point was to be active? to try and sniff out the Mafia?

He then proceeds to FoS clammy for 'making him look bad'.

FOS Clammy

very quick to make me look bad. but i am not sure if you are scum will keep an eye on it!

Finally, he decides to round it off by posting a random vote on page three, long after the random voting had ended, and still has given no real opinions or comments. I realize it is still early in the game, and to early for these to be strong scumtells, but

FoS Mike-zim

.

As for the armlx v Brandi case, I'm not sure what armlx was getting at. He seemed to be defending his case on the idea that the second vote in the game would be a serious one, even when Brandi had stated it was not shortly afterwards. Honest misunderstanding and it seems to be resolved.

However, this phrase stuck out in particular.

I can also support a Brandi vote, but more for her opportunism in voting Mike Zim.

Opportunism? Considering the vote on mike was the first (and only) vote placed on mike this game, and that is was a random vote at that, I don't see how this is opportunism. Even if it were a serious vote, placing the first vote on someone is hardly jumping onto the bandwagon.

IGMEOY Armlx

[Darox]

Oh, and

Unvote Qman

as I don't think hes that suspicious, however he does need to start posting more.

[Darox]

I can see two possible reasons why you would be defending Mike.

However, neither of them make sense this early or in this game setup. The only way you would have a definite read on what mike is right now is if he is your scum buddy.

I think I know what you are doing, but I'm still curious as to why you are so certain of mike.

Votecount:

Brandi [1] (clammy)
Clammy [1] (Angelmouse)
Qman [1] (caf19)
Bazza [1] (Mike-zim)

Not Voting [5] (Darox, Bazza-Scumfinder, Qman)

If anyone needs a prod, feel free to ask.

[Darox]

For now, I am fine with Mike and armlx both staying alive today, but if I don't hear what armlx has to say on the matter day 2 then I think we should lynch both of them, starting with armlx.

Reason being, theres two likely reasons why he is doing this, and one of them involves them both being scum.

I would like to hear more from Angelmouse and Qman.

As for Bazza vs Caf, it does look like Bazza could be keeping his options open on both the popular targets, so that if anyone calls him out for jumping on someone at -1 or -2 he can claim he always suspected them.

I don't think Bazza is overtly scummy though. Yet.

It seems in this game that voting isn't as popular as throwing around FoS, and I guess you could claim later (Say, after a mislynch) that you didn't really think the person was that scummy.

But,

At this stage, I'd say they are roughly equal in level of aggression

If thats your believe, why are you calling him out on it?

[Darox]

I'm rather annoyed.
You completely ignored me.


And Armlx, thats not really good enough.
I want some indication at least, and there is still no logical way that you could be certain of mike on day one and be pro town.

[Darox]

Well, I had already guessed that armlx, but it'll do for today.

Brandis hit onto the point I was aiming at.

If thats your suspicion, why defend him so much when he was not under any immediate threat and so early in the game? Calling attention to him and defending him right from the start of the game based on his confirmation post is not what I would expect if you are trying to keep a protown role undercover.

@Brandi, armlx, Qman and Bazza:
Who do you think is most scummy and why?

Who do you think is least scummy and why?

[Darox]

Interesting (But not unexpected) results.

I'm not buying armlx's reasons for his most scummy list at all, they seem rather frivolous.

Once again I can see why armlx could be defending mike, but I'm still not buying that you felt so certain of his innocence that you needed to defend him zealously right from the beginning of the game.

I think Bazza and armlx are both rather suspicious.

Armlx for the reasons I have constantly mentioned, and Bazza particularly for his last post which contained elements I disagree with.

Words do not PROVE anyones innocence unless it's a role-claim which hasn't been counter-claimed.

I don't like the implied idea that we should accept what people claim as pure truth if they are not contested, especially if they claim a power role.

i did not attempt to start a bandwagon at all and you saying that i did makes me even more heavily suspicious of you.

Firstly the fact that armlx actually stated that you jumped onto a bandwagon, rather than starting one, and then then fact you used his suspicions as an excuse to claim him as scummy both look very shady to me.

The town should be suspicious of everybody, because they don't know who is on their side. Having someone think you are acting scummy is not a scumtell. (Unless they are trying to shift a bandwagon, but this is not the case)

What does ping the scumdar however is overreacting to suspicions, like you did just there.

I'm not liking either of them right now.

[Darox]

Most scummy (tie):
Brandi- She said she got it, yet she still voted him for it in her first post....
Bazza- The "flippant" remark sounds a lot like trying to push a wagon without actually making sense.

I called your reason frivolous because you also attacked Brandi for being flippant, namely for her random vote on mike-zim. Hypocritical would probably have been a better word.

I did not list Bazza as one of my suspects because of the flippant mark, but more because of his reaction to your suspicion.

What reasoning of mine was frivolous?

[Darox]

Ok, lets try to clarify here.

When I called Armlx's reasoning frivolous I was primarily responding to the reasoning for Bazza. He criticized Bazza for trying to push a wagon on Brandi

which he was already on.

Not only that, but he had a pretty weak case on the bandwagon, assuming that Brandi's random vote (Which was confirmed to be random before you even starting wagoning) was serious.

I shouldn't have used the word flippant, I was just comparing your actions to Bazza's as the reason why I considered your criticism of Bazza frivolous.

And my initial posting doesn't use the word flippant in reference to you at all, armlx.

As for your reasons to suspect Brandi, you are basing it off a random vote, which to me does seem rather lacking.
Again, what reasoning of mine was frivolous?

[Darox]

We really need the other players in here, the only people really discussing are me, Brandi, and Armlx, with a one off comment by Bazza.

Time to send out the prods?

[Darox]

I swear i am townie, voting for me is a mistake.

I really, really don't like that appeal.

Oh and, in this setup, theres no way to be certain (Unless you are that role) which power roles are actually in the game.
Just because someone claimed, say, doctor, and noone else speaks up, this doesn't mean the person claiming is the doctor or even pro town.
For starters, there might not even be a doctor in the setup, and if he is, and counter claims, it is rather likely that he will be #1 on the mafia hitlist.
And if the claimer is about to be lynched and is scum, outing the real doctor or avoiding the noose for a day will both benefit the mafia greatly.

Or are you trying to set it up so that no one questions your premade claim in case you need it?

I wasn't so sure before, but I think Bazza merits more attention today then Armlx.

Vote: Bazza-Scumfinder

[Darox]

Hey hey, the first sign that someone thinks I might be scummy. I was wondering when that would happen.

The reason I

suggested

that we should lynch one (Or both, depending on the outcome of the first) of them was because of armlx's rapid and zealous defense of mikezim based on two posts, which struck me as very odd. At that time, Bazza did not present himself as potential scum in my books, so I was pressuring armlx to see if I could turn up anything.

Although I wouldn't like to lynch them right away D2 without some more evidence, I have a worry that if we just let both of them slide because armlx has a feeling about mike being protown, then we could be letting the scum skip merrily down to the endgame without a fight. Like I said, theres only two likely reasons why he is defending him, one involves them being town, and one involves armlx (Or both) being scum.
If its the former, he's executed it badly.

I guess it did eventually achieve its ultimate goal of generating conversation, even if it wasn't the response from armlx/mike I was hoping for.

Oh and,
Who do you think is most scummy?

Who do you think is least scummy?

[Darox]

Ah, but who do you think is least scummy?

I'm not at all worried about your vote, and I'm not using "But it generated conversation" as a defense, I'm not defending my actions at all.

I'm just giving reasoning behind my logic. I thought that at the time it would help scumhunt.

I'd be more worried if you weren't suspicious. Townies shouldn't be that quick to trust anyone, and maintain a healthy dose of skepticism. Up until you showed up noone had even so much as FoS'ed me, and I was even listed as least scummy by two people. Agreeing with a person on an issue is one thing, not questioning that person is another.

And we still haven't heard from Qman or Angelmouse.

[Darox]

Read my post again, I am encouraging people to examine everybody more closely and not just follow them. Townies should be more suspicious of others than scum, because townies are in the dark, while mafia know exactly who is on their side and who isn't.
Thats not trying to convince people to not question my actions. I think playing "Follow the leader" is a bad idea overall.

Like I said before, I'm not defending my actions because I believed they were in the interests of the town at the time, and have not hurt the town since.

Still waiting for you to answer my question.

[Darox]

Show me where I convinced everyone to follow me?

Show me instances of town following me?

If anything, your attack has made me believe you're protown, because I think scum would have picked someone who has been under fire, or one of the people still AWOL as an easy lynch target.

Oh and, you've said lots about me, but whats your status on the armlx/mike connection and on Bazza?

Votecount:

Bazza [2] (Armlx, Darox)
Clammy [1] (Angelmouse)
Qman [1] (caf19)
Armlx [1] (Bazza)
Darox [1] (Clammy)

Not Voting [3] (Darox, Brandi, Qman)

If anyone needs a prod, feel free to ask.

[Darox]

I think its rather interesting that Bazza first listed me as the person he found least scummy, then after I voted for him, placed me as sure thing scum.

Happy with my vote.

I'm also going over all the new posts since I last spoke.

[Darox]

Lets start with everything directed at me first, from the top.

I'd be more worried if you weren't suspicious.

So you are saying we should be suspicious of you?

If anything, your attack has made me believe you're protown

So...attacking a person who hasn't done anything suspicious is pro-town? Obviously you believe Clammy's suspicions against you to be invalid. Does this mean you support straw-manning and red herrings? I'm very confused by your logic.

On the contrary, I found Clammy's point to be quite valid, I didn't exactly word it right and may have been a bit rash in saying it.

I felt that Clammy was town because he was pushing a legitimate point against someone wasn't under fire. To me, that looks more like proper scumhunting, which is pro town. Not only that, but I said

I think scum would have picked someone who has been under fire, or one of the people still AWOL as an easy lynch target.

The reason I was not unduly worried about being voted is because I think given what I have done so far that Clammy will focus more on helping the town than tunnel visioning me.

If we mislynch today here is how the "Armix then mike" plan works.
D1 mislynch, NK
5 town 2 scum
Is armis is town
3 town 2 scum after a nk and the mislynch.
Keep pushing that mike lynch, if he's town we lose.

Misinterpreting me. First and foremost, I said 'if' and 'think'.
Secondly, you missed out this

The reason I

suggested

that we should lynch one (Or both, depending on the outcome of the first) of them was because of armlx's rapid and zealous defense of mikezim based on two posts

This was not a set in stone plan to be followed no matter the cost.


With that out of the way, lets get to the juicy details.

Bazza's replys to all the attention he has recieved.

Firstly, Bazza's reply to my question "Who do you think is least scummy" he replies

Atm i find Darox the least suspicious.[/qoute]

Then, in the following two posts, I start seeing Bazza as potential scum and attack him.

Post 106
Post 116

Then finally, in post 152, Bazza responds to my suspicions with this.

99.9% mafia list in order of most suspicious: Armix (100%) Darox, Caf

He makes a further appeal, "there is no harm in telling the truth, and me saying it should not be underestimated"

Then, he goes on to say that the appeal to emotion was not a desperate attempt to not get wagoned, but in fact a clever trap to see who would attack him for doing something deliberately suspicious. Not only is this flawed logic, it doesn't apply because I had already given reasons why I found Bazza scummy, with the appeal simply being the icing on the cake.

Further down, in reference to Armlx defending Mike: "He doesn't want to commit to anyone else being townie this early as he knows he might have to change his mind later in the game."
Just like you changed your mind on me? Changing your opinion on someone based on their recent actions is a neutral tell.

Then you come up with a scum pairing based not only on perceived scummyness, but also a mysterious link between me and armlx.

I think I know what the link is. We are both voting for him. OMGUS does not look good at a time like this Bazza.

I like my vote where it is, thanks.

[Darox]

EBWOP: Heh, qoute.

Ignore that.

[Darox]

If that was the case, thats some terrible playing on Bazzas part.

I was pretty confused by the Caf addition as well. As far as I can tell, the only mention of Caf aside from listing him as "99.9% scum" is to defend against Caf's statement that Bazza seemed loose with his FoS's but held onto his vote tightly.

Doesn't look like something that merits being stuck on the "Obvious scum" list, but I guess it makes a kind of sense, cause its more of an 'OMGUS' list and it fits the pattern of people who have attacked him. Notice he adds Qman, who also votes for him, as a potential fourth scum (Four scum, we are in trouble )

I'd like to hear what Clammy thinks of me minus the "Deciding our D2+D3 lynches" thing.

I'd also like to hear more from Bazza, and more from people on Bazza.

[Darox]

I am looking at this argument, and one thing I want to say before I do a thorough read through is that, Bazza, this is important, so actually take it in.

Suspecting you for being scum because you 'deliberately' used scummy tactics does not make the people suspecting you scum. The logic behind that is so twisted and wrong it hurts to see it. If someone is acting scummy, its the towns duty to call them out on it and see how they react. If they act even scummier, as you did, its the towns duty to apply pressure until you either break or you bounce back.

Right now, you look like you've cracked, scumboy.

[Darox]

The only thing that is stopping Armix dying today is the fact that i am dying. Also, his whole day is mostly based on gunning after me. The town would also know that there was no alterior motive when it came to my suspicions of Armix.

I KNOW and recognise that Armix is mafia, if you guys don't go for him in Day 2 then you are making a big mistake.

My mafia list definitely has the two mafia in it. And trust me i don't make claims like that lightly.

(i think i deserve best newbie after this game)

Suspecting you for being scum because you 'deliberately' used scummy tactics does not make the people suspecting you scum. The logic behind that is so twisted and wrong it hurts to see it. If someone is acting scummy, its the towns duty to call them out on it and see how they react. If they act even scummier, as you did, its the towns duty to apply pressure until you either break or you bounce back.

Darox the whole argument you just presented i already refuted on Page 220.

Umm, no you didn't?

[Darox]

My plea was for two reasons, (1) there is no harm in telling the truth, and me saying it should not be underestimated (2) An experiment which has been useful in previous games...When someone is the victim of a bandwagon they purposely do a move that (although not incriminating) is questionable....the people who jump on that most aggresively and quickly are often scum.

Now there are two people who jumped on it, but their responses were very different...Darox and Brandi.....whereas Darox said she didn't like it....Brandi asked questions and inquired into my motivation. Therefore, brandi's way of expreesing her discomfort with it was FAR more pro-townie than Darox's. Oh yeah and Darox also condemned it without asking questions.

Point two is never a certainty but it was part of the intention behind the plea, and i do think it worked...It made you seem more townie and Armix and Darox even more scummy.

I will post my resons for Caf soon, it is pretty long, but i'll definitely post it within the next day. I'm far more suspicious of Darox though and know Mike is mafia.

To me, those look like you are saying "Haha, you voted for me as soon as I did the questionable act of appealing to emotion, therefor you are scum"

Oh and, please try stick to who you think is sure fire scum, it seems to vary wildly based on who seems most threatening at the time, or who you think you can shift the scrutiny onto.

If you are so sure I, Armlx, caf, mike, and Qman are scummy (All of whom you have listed as "Sure thing scum" at some point) I would like to hear some reasons why, other than that nice universal that we are either attacking you, or can be scapegoated.

[Darox]

We need the rest of the town in here.

Time to string up the weasel?

[Darox]

Agree with the point that Bazza not having a defense is more likely because his partner is smart enough to stay the hell away from that sinking ship than the lack of a partner.

I also would like to point out my suspicions over armlx have not died, but are just merely resting. I think Bazza is a better lynch today than armlx, who should be scrutinized a bit more D2.

I don't think Bazza has directly addressed any solid arguments against him, reading over again.

So, I ask again, to all the remaining townies. Can we string this weasel up?

[Darox]

I'd like to hear what Clammy thinks of me minus the "Deciding our D2+D3 lynches" thing.

I observe

you haven't messed up otherwise

you've kept your nose clean (null), have kept your defense to the point and relevant (town or cool scum, null), have been useful scum-hunting (town...unless the lynchee is too), have kept your options open (null), have remained generally contributing (town) and directing traffic subtly rather than overtly (null), especially late day, now that Baz looks dead (anxious scum).

So I'm far from closing the casebook on you, and your wanting me to overlook your most substantial flaw, the directing of town to two potential mis-lynches, heightens my alertness a little more. At this stage I suspect we'll talk more about this D2.

I think you are misinterpreting me on two points.
Firstly, I am not 'anxious to lynch bazza' as you might have infered from "Can we string this weasel up?", rather I was trying to get the town opinion on Bazza (Notably from those that have remained pretty quiet on the issue)

Secondly, I didn't ask you to ignore what I said about potential D2-3 lynches, I wanted to know if that was your only reason for suspecting me, as it was the only thing you had detailed about me until I asked.

Whats your opinion on Bazza? So far you have only mentioned that his attempts to redirect onto Armlx are "Interesting" and that his desperation could be either townie or scummy.

Is it a coincedence that you are picking 2 inactives and one with a bandwgon against him???

Seems like you are just going for the east targets.

Is it a coincidence that you are trying to shift the wagon from you to the second most suspected player? Seems like you are just going for the easy targets.

Perhaps if i did it at this point....But i could have done it earlier in the game when they were just as inactive and there wasn't as many votes on me.

Again you avoided my question....Do you think that because i am about to be killed off you are above questioning??? Or is it that you find my questioning probing and are afraid you are going to slip up???

You think that when you die all suspicion on armlx will drop, even if/when you turn up scum? Its pretty clear why armlx would be suspicious of people not giving any opinion on a potential lynch.

Oh and, the only person to to really 'jump' on your bandwagon is Qman. As for "one with a bandwgon against him?" of course he suspects you, because he was the one who first placed a serious vote against you.

That outcry that Armlx is going for easy targets, like 'one with a bandwgon against him' sounds like another appeal, and would make a kind of sense if armlx was wagonhopping. But he is not.

These poor and desperate attempts to redirect suspicion look more like trapped scum than desperate townie to me.

[Darox]

Oh, and Bazza, stop kidding yourself.

If you're playing townie, you're not doing a very good job of it.

[Darox]

He is not wagon hopping.
Hes still focused on you. How is that hard to see? He was asked what he would do if you turned up town, and he gave some alternate suspects. He is not trying to push for a angelmouse bandwagon now.

Looks like a pretty poor attempt to me.

Freaking out when someone looks at you with suspicion is not good play period, regardless of alignment. If you die and turn up town, I'll curse you for distracting us from finding scum, cause right now, you're looking very scummy.

How does you being the most suspicious make my opinion that armlx is the second most suspicious craplogic?

Oh and, your OMGUS suspicion threat didn't work before, the "You'll regret it if I die" threat isn't going to work now. Try coming up with a real defense, rather than threats to people suspecting you. I'm not going to shift my vote because you threw the newbie card at me and tried to make it look like I was making terrible mistakes.

Personally, if you die, and turn out scum, I would probably consider armlx to look less scummy, because trying to buss your partner while you are in the hangmens noose is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of, but then again, it wouldn't surprise me considering how desperately you are trying to worm your way out of it.

You've tried OMGUS a lot, tried to redirect the wagon, may I suggest some WIFOM next?

[Darox]

They are not poor and desperate,

he has no need AT ALL to wagon hop as his first wagon seems to be moving.

SO AGAIN CRAP LOGIC! maybe if i didn't have to constantly refute crap, misguided or inflated logic from 3 people who are determined to lynch me regardless of what i write, then people would stop looking at Armix through rose-tinted glasses. I have played well as townie....The fact that everything i say is being blown out of proportion and over-analyzed at every point is not my fault. If you were to look closesly enough you could find something scummy with everyones posts...the fact that 3 people are looking constantly for it in my posts do not help.

Firtsly, to answer Brandi's quote about me being mean. It was Darox who said i was playing crap if i were Townie....So maybe your quote should be directed at her.....i was just saying that if she thinks i'm playing bad....she is playing a lot worse.

Darox, the fact that so many townies in my position would have given up by now instead of arguing their case, and the fact that i have found the two scum, will mean that once you guys realise i am townie you will see that...If you had all paid a little more attention and looked at the posts in a non-biased way, i will have been the best townie.

NOW TO YOUR QUOTES AND QUESTIONS.

1. I never said that he was wagon hopping, so again i think you better re-read (this seems to be a constant problem with you) I stated the reasons why he WASN'T wagon hopping, because you said he wasn't acting scummy as he didn't wagon hop.

Added to the rest of armlx's points, it looks like you've been busted. Again.

Seriously town, we are wasting time here.

Can we get everyone in here and get a proper decision on this, so we can continue either way.

[Darox]

Yes Armlx, this is my first ever game of Mafia, here or anywhere else.

Bazza, your constant contradictions and omissions do nothing to further your defense in the slightest.

I was not 'biased against you from the start.' If you notice, I focused more on armlx/mike more than anyone else, it was only when you started getting overly defensive over random votes and innocent questioning that I decided to pressure you.

Caf was not looking for you as an easy lynch at the start either, and analyzing someones posts when they appear scummy is part of the game and important to scumhunting.

Pray tell, what redeeming qualities do you believe you have shown?



So we have 5 people willing to lynch Bazza, but we still don't have solid opinions from angel or mike, which I definitely think we should hear before we lynch him. I'd like to hear more from Brandi over whether she ultimately supports or opposes the Bazza lynch also.

Once we get this over with, we can start broadening our views more, and the results can help look for other scum.

[Darox]

Oh and, welcome to Bazza's "Sure thing scum" list clammy.

[Darox]

Oh, I reviewed post 298, and noticed I was slightly in the wrong with my interpretation of Bazza's words.

I stated that the idea that armlx was 'jumping on easy targets' would only make sense if armlx did in fact jump onto the Bazza bandwagon (wagon hopping) which he did not in fact do, because he was the one that first placed major suspicion on Bazza.

Then Bazza states that because he is not wagon hopping (As I showed) my logic is crap.

I misinterpret Bazza a bit here and reiterate that Armlx didn't wagon hop (And thus did not 'jump on an easy target')

Then Bazza attacks me in that I apparently put the words "Armlx is wagon hopping" into Bazza's mouth. He then states the reason he believed Armlx was not wagon hopping (Namely because he believed the wagon was succeeding.)

The core difference here is, Bazza initially argued that Armlx did wagon hop and jump onto the "easy target" of Bazza, when in fact armlx was the first to do so before Bazza was acting majorly suspicious. Then when I stated armlx never wagon hopped Bazza changes his tone and states he never once mentioned armlx changing from one wagon to another.

(which was inferred by his post "You seem to be suspecting the easy target with the bandwagon on him" which only carries significant weight if armlx was trying to redirect a wagon (Possibility, but given the pressure on armlx at the time, not that strong) or jumping on an existing wagon (Not the case))

What is important is Bazza turns his case from past to present tense. I stated that because armlx did not jump on an existing Bazza wagon his "easy targets" statement was flawed, then he stated that Armlx was not changing bandwagons from Bazza, which was obviously not the case and not what I was stating, although I did initially get caught out by Bazza's changing of the target of "wagon hopping" (From jumping onto Bazza, to jumping off of Bazza).

Oh, and Clammy, the remarks at the end of 298 are more of the same line as 'Can we string this weasel up?' because even then we still didn't have opinions from Qman, angelmouse, or yourself. I was getting annoyed with the back and forth between Bazza and armlx/me and wanted the rest of the town to speak up so we could reach a decision.

[Darox]

Fixing your arguments based on what people say to refute your points doesn't really work, as its a bit too late by then.

How many times have you taken others arguments and phrases now?

Oh and, cite references.

You keep saying you have refuted our arguments without said rebuttals not being torn apart, but you never show any examples.

Lets see these supposed arguments.

And I don't like the way you keep lamenting being killed, acting like you have given up, then posting another page of arguments. Its contradictory and annoying.

[Darox]

Time to prod mike, and wait for angel?

And I think its funny Bazza decided to give up again after I told him to show evidence.

[Darox]

You continue to fail to provide quotes of your evidence.

Try again next time.

Mod:

Prod Mike-Zim Done.

Votecount:

Bazza [4] (Armlx, Darox, Qman, Clammy)
Armlx [1] (Bazza)

Not Voting [4] (Darox, Brandi, caf19, Angelmouse)

[Darox]

Prohibitive townie?

That not good.
Sounds like I'm holding the town back.

As for Bazza's request for Qman to hold off to prevent him from being hammered, I disagree.

If someone does hammer Bazza without first letting both Angel and Mike give solid opinions on the lynch then that person will give us some interesting information and cause for serious discussion D2. Bazza already has 6 people willing to lynch him, hes going to be lynched either way unless some miracle happens. If someone slips up and hammers him prematurely it will give us some insight on the player.

Although, it does depend if you think Angel/Mike's opinions they give before Bazza's alignment is revealed will be that much more useful that it is not worth the risk of someone hammering.

Personally, I think hes fine at -1.

[Darox]

Time to start asking for replacements?

The only thing we really are waiting on for the end of D1 is the opinions of Mike and Angel, and it looks like they may need replacing.

[Darox]

Why did you tell mike off for his random vote on you. Not for random voting, but for voting you. You even encouraged voting other people and provided a defense

against a random vote

and then topped it all off with a HoS.

You didn't even demonstrate him to be acting scummy. You merely commented that his lack of involvement was not pro-town.
Which, it admittedly isn't, but not acting pro town does not necessarily equate to scummy behavior, just bad townie play.

Then he justifies his actions through my arguments given prior to his post.

Thus the start of my suspicions and the beginning the sequence of events that has lead to where we are now, the lynching of Bazza.

I am not in the habit of placing OMGUS accusations or votes

Who else finds this funny?

And finally, is there a reason everyone refers to armlx as 'armix'?
Its an L, not an I. I even checked when everyone started using 'armix'.

[Darox]

I think the more pressing issue is, if me, armlx, caf, Qman, and clammy are all part of this massive scum group with a grudge against Bazza, why haven't we won already?

You say "if someone tells you it's a random vote then why would you feel obliged to defend yourself against it?" but you

did

provide a defense and reasons why he should not so much as random vote yourself.

Using a HoS isn't really an effective way of getting a read on someone who had barely posted for three pages and hadn't contributed. I wouldn't be surprised if Mike didn't know what HoS meant.

You haven't explained the OMGUS except to claim you are a vanilla townie and hence claim that anyone that votes you is scum. (This, interestingly, is using further OMGUS to try and excuse the previous OMGUS)

[Darox]

Providing points against obvious jokes doesn't improve your defense or garner you any credibility.

If you look, you actually provide several reasons why he should not random vote you specifically. And besides, like I said, this was just the minor transgression that made me decide to pressure you and find all these inconsistencies.

And you completely fail to provide quotes and post numbers. Again.

Try again next time.

[Darox]

Lets have a vote. How many people think my suggesting that there is a 5 man scum group in a 9 player game was a serious attempt to provide evidence against bazza, and not in fact a joke?

Minor transgressions lead to increased pressure, which can lead to either further transgressions or not. I didn't take it very seriously until you started doing it more and more.


And in actuality it is 12 pages against you, and I have looked through it.

The reason I am asking you is not because I don't want to read over your words, its because

I can't find any of this supposed evidence and rebuttals you are constantly refering too.

[Darox]

Also, I'm getting pretty bored here. I'm tempted to say execute him and be done with it, but I think the opinions of the other two will prove useful for D2.

[Darox]

Bazza continues to avoid my questions and instead attacks meaningless points such as "Lets have a vote".

[Darox]

We still haven't heard from Angelmouse, which is irritating.

Hmm, I hadn't really considered Brandi that much.
Shall have to look into that a lot more D2.

[Darox]

Agree with the point that Bazza not having a defense is more likely because his partner is smart enough to stay the hell away from that sinking ship than the lack of a partner.

Given this, I think if you are looking for a partner it would be from the more hesitant ones to join, rather than actual opposition. Although, the partner

could

have decided earlier on it would be better to jump down on him hard.

Now with Darla joining that makes it 6/8 people voting (Or pseudo voting in order to prevent an early lynch), Brandi who has said she is willing to go along with it but

thinks Bazza is likely town than scum

, and of course Angelmouse, who is in the process of being replaced.

Of the 6 voters, 2, Armlx and Myself, were on it from the start, in posts 104 and 116 respectively.
Qman joined shortly afterwards in his first string of major posts, number 149.
Caf19, who expressed suspicions around the same time Armlx and I began pressuring Bazza, but did not state the desire to vote until post 173.
Clammy who was the last of the initial 5 to lynch group, who finally voted page 304.
Then finally, DarlaBlueEyes, who 'voted' shortly after replacing in for Mike, in post 394.

Looking at that, I'm not liking:
Clammy, who I felt gave some pretty weak reasons for supporting the Bazza lynch.
Brandi, who said she was ok with the lynch even though she said she believed Bazza was town.
And a special note on Darla, who pretty much went with the flow. Given she just replaced a lurking player however, this isn't too much indication of anything. We will just have to see tomorrow.

Aside from all that, Darla; what is your thoughts on Armlx defending mike-zim at the start of the game?

[Darox]

I just reread what I typed and realized I ignored the possibility of Bazza being town, but following that route doesn't seem to provide any sizable clues. It basically means anyone aside from Bazza could be scum.

Any one of the 4 joining early, could be scum seeing a wagon with potential and riding it early, Brandi, could be trying to garner townie points with the "I don't really think he's scum", Clammy, who in this simulation would look more like a scum jumping on the wagon near the end, and Darla/Angel are unaccounted for.

[Darox]

Not the same thing.
I didn't attack you for not jumping on the Bazza wagon. I attacked you for giving bad reasons to be on the Bazza wagon.

And previously, I thought you were town because if you were Bazza's partner and trying to derail his wagon, I thought you would focus it on one of the more obvious targets of the time, Armlx, Mike, or even Brandi.

And I don't even get what you are trying to say about lynching Bazza quickly.
Read my posts. I have constantly supported getting the entire towns opinions before we lynch him.


As for "Setting up Brandi Lynch D2", where did you get that?

I express suspicion towards Brandi for her seemingly contradictory statement. She clearly states she thinks its more likely Bazza is a dumb town than a scum, but is still ok with his lynch.

Expressing suspicion =/= Ordering a lynch

Flipping out with OMGUS isn't cool by the way, its one of the reasons Bazza is under so much fire.

Oh, I almost forgot my questions. After all, they provoke some interesting responses.

@Brandi: What is your opinion on Bazza, and on the suspicions laid against you.

@Clammy: Why did you assume that because I mentioned Brandi as a possible suspect I wanted her dead D2?

@Town: What is your opinions on Clammy and this recent turn of events?

[Darox]

Darla posted with me I see. This provokes a further question.

@Armlx: Are Darlas suggested motives for your defense true or do you still maintain your previous position?

[Darox]

Not the same thing.
I didn't attack you for not jumping on the Bazza wagon. I attacked you for giving bad reasons to be on the Bazza wagon.

Actually, yes you did attack me for jumping on late: "Clammy who was the last of the initial 5 to lynch group, who finally voted page 304."

I stated when you joined the wagon. This does not equal an attack. I stated Caf expressed suspicion early but didn't 'vote' (Stated he would vote if not for the three votes already on Bazza) until a while later. Does this mean I am attacking Caf? No. I stated armlx was the first person on the wagon. Does this mean I am attacking armlx? No. Aside from Darla who replaced recently, you were the last person to join the wagon. This is fact. Not an attack.

I expressed suspicions not because of the timing of your vote, but the reasons given for it which I felt were lacking.

And previously, I thought you were town because if you were Bazza's partner and trying to derail his wagon, I thought you would focus it on one of the more obvious targets of the time, Armlx, Mike, or even Brandi.

No, you said: "I felt that Clammy was town because he was pushing a legitimate point against someone wasn't under fire. To me, that looks more like proper scumhunting, which is pro town."

Yes. Look at both of them, and you will find they work together. Because you didn't attack one of the more obvious targets in order to derail Bazza's wagon, I assumed you were genuinely scumhunting rather than trying to save a partner.


---------------------

And I don't even get what you are trying to say about lynching Bazza quickly.
Read my posts. I have constantly supported getting the entire towns opinions before we lynch him.

Evidence i've already called you on with trying to rush a lynch today:

Time to string up the weasel?

So, I ask again, to all the remaining townies. Can we string this weasel up?

Seriously town, we are wasting time here.

Quoting out of context? If you read, the reason I posted words to that effect multiple times was because the game had stagnated and we were waiting on the opinions of 2 people, both of whom ended up needing replacement.


---------------------

As for "Setting up Brandi Lynch D2", where did you get that?

Here: "Brandi, who said she was ok with the lynch even though she said she believed Bazza was town."

Expressing suspicion =/= Ordering a lynch

Expressing suspicion doesn't mean I want someone lynched.
In fact, I had stated before

If someone is acting scummy, its the towns duty to call them out on it and see how they react. If they act even scummier, as you did, its the towns duty to apply pressure until you either break or you bounce back.

There is no mention of lynching here.

-------------

I express suspicion towards Brandi for her seemingly contradictory statement. She clearly states she thinks its more likely Bazza is a dumb town than a scum, but is still ok with his lynch.

Expressing suspicion =/= Ordering a lynch

And i didn't state you were ordering a lynch, subtly setting up D2 though it seems. If scum you know Bazza's alignment, and this dual set up of myself and Brandi gives you a bet each way, especially if Baz is town, and

that

gives me reason to think he is town considering i very much suspect you.

Are you saying I am scum because I have suspicions of more than one person at a time? This is pretty reaching. Qman mentioned at one point he thought I was a little suspicious, does this mean he was trying to set up a Darox lynch D2? How about armlx suggesting early that Brandi is suspicious?

---------------------
Oh, and this cements my opinion that you need to be looked into.

I said you gave weak reasons for joining the lynch, now you decide to leave the lynch and state you think Bazza is town. You've pretty much confirmed my suspicions, but we will have to see what happens to Bazza first.


As for Brandi, I still don't agree with her stance of 'I think hes a dumb town but I'm not going to try and stop you from lynching', but I can understand her reasoning that if town all he is doing is muddying the waters.

[Darox]

...

With your statement that I am misrepresenting you you are misrepresenting me.

It is quite obvious I am not calling for your lynch today. I was stating there that I was not calling for your lynch at all at this stage of the game.

I was following this logic.

If someone is acting scummy, its the towns duty to call them out on it and see how they react. If they act even scummier, as you did, its the towns duty to apply pressure until you either break or you bounce back.

It doesn't mention anywhere in there about setting up present or future lynches.

And, saying someone is suspicious then using that later as evidence to back up your beliefs is not straw manning. Straw manning is when you focus on a weak part of your opponents argument and ignore the stronger points to try and make your argument seem superior.

Next,
Where did you get the impression I was referring to you when I mentioned Brandi in my last sentence? I was actually referring to the town as a whole and specifically Caf.

Finally, I'll make this point nice and simple.

Suspecting someone is not scummy play, nor does it imply a desire to cause mis-lynches, unless said suspicions are without reason. As I clearly gave reasons for my suspicions, your accusation that I am trying to set up false lynches (

Based on a mere suspicion no less

) is void.

Question time!

Again,
@Town: What is your opinions on Clammy and this recent turn of events?

@Clammy: Care to give your reasons for voting Bazza? Did you have any intention of lynching him?

[Darox]

Oh, and happy birthday. =)

[Darox]

Armlx is having a birthday too?
Happy birthday to you too then.

[Darox]

It is quite obvious I am not calling for your lynch today. I was stating there that I was not calling for your lynch at all at this stage of the game.

This means I don't think you should be lynched at all this game, unless you do something scummy later to merit it.

Does not mean I am adverse to a D1 lynch but supportive of a D2 lynch.

I can't even begin to comprehend how you think expressing suspicions = Setting up D2-3 lynches, so I'm going to stop responding to it because you clearly won't listen to what I am saying.

If you really want a rebuttal, read over my last few posts again.

[Darox]

Are you suggesting if I find solid evidence that you are scummy and use it to suggest you as a reason why you should be high on the lynching list, that would make me scummy?

Are you suggesting that the points I made before were not perfectly valid?

Are you suggesting that I have been 'intimidated' by you and will that I will try to keep my nose clean?

[Darox]

EBWOP: Forget the first 'will'.

"and that I will try..."

[Darox]

Lets see...

Clammy. At the time of your voting, the only reasons you gave was that he was worried about being lynched (Null tell) and that he used your words ('tunnel visioned').

That is

not

a strong case. Not enough to put him at -1 to lynch.

As for my reasons on Brandi, like I said, I disagree with her belief that he is just a dumb town but that it can't hurt to lynch him. I believe that if you think someone is town, you should do your best to lynch a scum instead of said dumb townie.

Perfectly valid reasons for expressing suspicon.

i have no time to trek through and find the countless number of things that make her look scummy.

This seems to be a pretty common theme with you, alluding to mystical evidence than no one else can see, while never providing any solid references. I told you before, and I'll tell you again. Post your evidence clearly and with references. Otherwise I'm going to ignore any hintings of this magical evidence. Saying people are twisting your words but not showing this is is also included.

Finally, a Village Idiot is not a role, it is a description of the way a player plays. Badly.

[Darox]

Other way around.
I expressed some suspicions towards clammy and then he jumped off.

Q-Man found you the most scummy, thats why he voted you.
He was the third person to vote you. In no way was your death inevitable at that stage.

Brandi thinks (based on what she has said) you are a poor player who is doing nothing but disturb efforts to find real scum. This is not a good thing. Stop trying to portray it as such.

Counting up people who think you are scum (to varying degrees of certainty), I can see 5 people who do think you are, 1 person who leans more towards you being a VI, 1 person "defending you" (Although this isn't exactly much of a defense, more of a preferred focus on myself.)

And one person who is being replaced.

So well done, you are down from 6 out of the 5 needed for a lynch.

Bazza, you have posted several times over the period of 3 hours, and you

don't

have enough time to provide even basic samples of evidence? Pretty poor show.

[Darox]

I just read through Bazza's points, and wow.

Misquoting out of context, deliberate misrepresentation, straw manning, and making up points (How the hell do you think addressing a question '@Town' is a scumtell?)

I'll respond to it in detail when I get on a computer with decent keyboard, but I just wanted to say, if you look at Bazzas points, hes either repeating what clammy has said, misrepresenting me, or making up points.

He doesn't even know who is being replaced. (Its angelmouse, not Qman.)

Brandi, that was more or less what I believed your position to be, and although still I don't agree with letting someone who you believe to be town get lynched, looking at Bazza's posts, I can understand why you would be glad to get rid of him even if you think hes town.

Anyway, more from me in around 2-3 hours.

[Darox]

From the top.

Darox, being VI may not be a good thing, but i'm sure Brandi would rather get rid of scum.Clammy has pointed out things he has found strange about my play. Just because he isn't following your little bandwagon and has chosen to be a bit more objective doesn't mean that he is defending me.

Thanks for restating others views that I have already acknowledged.

QMan has not been replaced yet, therefore his opinion still counts and should not be disregarded. If you check back i think you'll find that he foundArmlx to be equally if not more suspicious.

Qman isn't being replaced, and voted for you. Not armlx, not me, you.
This is a pretty clear indication of who he found more scummy. Not only that, but where did I ever say that Qmans opinion should be disregarded? Hell, where did I say that the person being replaced should be disregarded? I didn't mention angelmouses stance because she hasn't given one.

On we go.

Preferred focus, is a very non-commital way of saying. He thinks you are scum.

Um, what? How is it non committal. Do tell, I'm sure its a wonderful story. Its not an issue of whether clammy thinks I am scum or not, its an issue of him focusing on me more than anyone else. I would be very much surprised if I was the only person Clammy had down as possible scum. Hence, 'preferred focus'. Instance of fabricating points.

Oh and i notice when pressure is put on you, you always revert back to me and how suspicious i am, attacking instead of defending is a classic scum trait.

Again, what?

Look at posts 403, 413, 415, 421, 423, and then try to find an instance of me trying to redirect clammy by saying "But look! Bazza is more suspicious than me! Leave me alone and attack him!"

If anything,

this is exactly what you were and continue to do by attacking armlx/myself.

[quote="Bazza']you say you have two possible reasons but neither of them make sense. Then you go on to say you think you know what he is doing.....so does that mean you had a 3rd possible reason OR did you change your mind and think that one of the initial 2 DID infact make sense?[/quote]

Wrong. The possibilities were armlx pro town, or armlx pro scum. One instance was that armlx was right and mike had given of a role tell. The reason that didn't make sense was how could armlx be sure, and if he was, why did he call attention to it, rather than keep quiet and let it slip under the radar.
The other instance was that armlx was scum and trying to defend mike to further his cause and improve his rep should mike die, but that didn't make sense because his quick and strong defense meant more focus would be heaped on him than mike, effectively ruining the point of that plan.
I thought it was more likely the pro town motive, because of the way he defended mike and because the scum action made much less sense.
The reason I am unsure is because there is very little that armlx could have used to 'discover' mikes role, much less enough to make him certain.
Just because I think one is more likely than the other doesn't mean I think it makes sense.
And lastly, as for "So other people suspect him less", I actually pushed him harder after that because I was unsure, and I didn't want to let it go unless he showed some reasoning.

If one of the distinct possibilities were them both being scum, then why would you be fine with them both staying alive???

This is a gold mine.

Because the other distinct possibility was that they were both town.

I thought that was pretty obvious. The reason I thought we should start with armlx was because he was the one acting more scummy. Mike zim could have been an innocent patsy, but armlx was the one making the noise.

Why would Day 2 be any different if both were to live?

Because if the scum had picked up on the obvious hint by armlx that mike was special, I expected him to be night killed. This would mean that A: armlx would explain himself. B: I would have a much better idea of what was going on, and what side armlx was on.

If he didn't get night killed, nor armlx, this meant either the scum didn't buy it or

one or both were scum themselves.

If that happened, I planned to pressure both mike and armlx a lot more.

{Obvious joke}So, did you see the conflict between me and clammy? Guess what, we don't really think the other is suspicious, we are just distancing from each other.{/Obvious joke}

Trying to appear Pro-townie and reitterating the fact that people hadn't found you suspicious. (something which you seemed proud of)

Reiterating? You mean saying it for the first time? Acting proud of it? You mean being shocked that it took so long?

If you read that quote, I state that I was worried about the lack of general suspicion. If everyone was focusing on a small group, it meant anyone not part of that group would get a free ride home. Seeing as this meant 6 players got a free ride, I was concerned, to say the least.

And now, my favorite parts.

Hyperbolic sarcasm in an attempt to strengthen your argument and make me look like a VI who is constantly OMGUS....when you know that isn't the case.

You're right, that isn't the case, because I don't believe you are a townie VI. I believe you are scum. And, please tell me how proposing that there is a 5 man scum group in a 9 player OPEN SETUP game could possibly be viewed as a point in an argument.

When i went on to defend it, you just dismissed it as a joke......despite the fact you had referred to it as a "pressing issue"

The joke was that I was responding to your scumlist cries with a mock serious tone, foreboding grave circumstances for the town.

This is one of many examples of you inflating or exaggerating arguments against me in the hopes that the would go unnoticed.

Hopes that it would go unnoticed? A point that goes unnoticed is a wasted point. Even if the joke this references was a real point, if I wanted it to go unnoticed I might as well have not posted it.

@ Townies was suspicious, AGAIN i ask you, how exactly would you knw who the townies were unless you were mafia. Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to ask everyone, or was this just ANOTHER attempt to seem pro-townie?

This is just... Bravo. I mean, misreading an obvious joke as a real point as one thing, but misreading posing a question to the town as a scumtell is solid gold comedy.

Also you accused my of OMGUS'ing earlier in the game, but you start to point out suspicions on Clammy when you realise he isn't following you 100%

I'll repeat myself nice and slowly.

I. Posted. My. Suspicions. On. Clammy. Before. Clammy. Removed. His. Vote. And. Started. Attacking. Me.
The. Obvious. Sign. That. Shows. This. Is. That. He. Uses. My. Suspicions. Of. Himself. As. Points. In. His. Attack.

your question to "the town" was a bit unbalanced don't you think? "recent turn of events." make it sound like it's a bad thing

Recent turn of events has no negative connotations whatsoever. It means things that have come to pass in the recent past.

Clammy unvoting you and voting me was a sudden change. There was no big deliberation where he states his uncertainty before moving his vote.

Right, I do believe thats all of your posts done. Not only that, but you managed to mess up even more.

Go on, post some more 'evidence' on me.

[Darox]

Oh, I see people posted while I 'slammed' Bazza's points.

I'm not understanding why you think armlx is defending me when he only refers to stuff that either references himself or why he thinks clammy is suspicious.

Compare that to the post I just made debunking all of Bazza's points, hes hardly answered Bazza for me.

Finally, Clammy. You still haven't answered my previous question.

@Clammy: Care to give your reasons for voting Bazza? Did you have any intention of lynching him?

[Darox]

I had a plethora of reasons for voting Bazza, to apply the L-1 and see if someone quick-hammered, to test various members of the crowd in ways yet to be revealed (but i'm sure they will be) as some will attest i like to do, to further the cracking of Baz and see if it would lead to a partner or an audacious move from others in the crowd (such as your D2+3 lynch setup of Brandi and myself) and because i honestly feel that if Baz is town he'd not be sorely missed.

I did notice it, but it doesn't answer certain points.

You imply that you were willing to lynch him, someone you have stated you feel is an innocent, as a 'test'. This is pretty much one of the reasons you are attacking me for, saying that I am 'deliberately setting up someone innocent to get lynched while absolving myself of responsibility'.

Care to explain the duplicity?

One thing I didn't explicitly ask, was "Care to explain your reasons you gave when you voted Bazza?"



And finally, on your reasons for voting Bazza, you mentioned his copying of your phrases as a reason.

If someone does hammer Bazza without first letting both Angel and Mike give solid opinions on the lynch then that person will give us some interesting information and cause for serious discussion D2. Bazza already has 6 people willing to lynch him, hes going to be lynched either way unless some miracle happens. If someone slips up and hammers him prematurely it will give us some insight on the player.

In my opinion, he is either scum, or VI. Honestly I'm leaning towards the latter. (...) he doesn't see how many mistakes he is making or how he is hindering the town. (...)a VI does nothing but make it harder for the rest of the town to win and completely puts them off towards scum hunting

Look at these, then look at your reason for voting Bazza, then look at your revised reasons for voting Bazza, then try to tell me with a straight face there is no hypocrisy here.

[Darox]

EBWOP: Phrases and ideas*

[Darox]

So then I said, no,

your mom

goes to college.

We need to threaten Flameaxe until he provides us with a replacement for Angel.

[Darox]

Progress? Blasphemy!

I'm only

slightly

disappointed we got Flay instead of Yossarian.

[Darox]

What makes you believe that inconsistency is the hobgoblin of scum, rather than village idiots? Has Bazza

really

been all that inconsistent? He attacks everyone who attacks him; he thinks armlx is obvscum, and he posts too damn much. He actually suspects more than just armlx, but that doesn't make him scum, just frustrated. I don't believe he's come out and said "Darox, armlx, AND X are all scum!"

Aside from the fact that consistently attacking people that attack him isn't really a point in favor of Bazza, he has been jumping back and forth all over the show.

Atm i find Darox the least suspicious.

Atm If i were to guess a mafia pairing now it would be (Armix, Darox)

I'm far more suspicious of Darox though and know Mike is mafia.
[...]
My certainty is based on dozens of posts and actions by Mike.
[...]
Armix's certainty came within the first page...i didn't suspect Armix til more recently when i thought out of his possible motives.
[...]
[

In reference to Armlx

] How certain am i??? 100%, i know he is mafia
[...]
I'm sure that if i live past today and Armix dies i'll be killed by the remaining mafia at night anyway.

Armix on the other hand should be dead, there is strong evidence against him, and if i die on Day 1 i urge everyone to go after him and Darox. [

This, interestingly, is what is used most against me, setting up lynches.

]
[...]
Armix and his mafia bud (Darox, or maybe Caf) [

And then he states hes not even sure about me, but advocates my lynch anyway

]

Speaking of pushing D2 and 3 lynches...

i know that i will probably die, but one good thing that will come of it is hopefully the townies will go after you and Darox afterwards

hopefully my team will not sway from my thoughts and kill you and Darox.

And back to Bazza's inconsistencies.

i haven't quite worked out who out of Darox and Caf is his buddy.....but i'd say 60/40 that it's most likely Darox.[

Can't decide if I am 100% scum or just maybe scum

]

After re-reading again, i think that Caf is more likely to be Armix's buddy than Darox

May i suggest that EVERYONE goes back to the start of the thread and re-reads the posts from the perspective that Mike (along with Darox or Caf) is mafia

my idea relates to Armix,Darox and Caf being mafia.

[In reference to Armlx] i am hoping that people who are 50/50 between us realise that killing you is a better option as your scum partner is more easy to recognise....than if i were to have one.

really don't see the point when two of the most vocal members in the game are mafia and have decided to team up on me [

References Armlx and Darox

]
[...]
I'm curious as to why Caf needs to wait on Angelmouse before she votes for me....If you think i'm scum Caf vote for me, if you don't then don't....is this just a ploy to seem pro-townie. [

This is not directly related, but I think its interesting that Bazza doesn't want Angel to talk before he gets hammered

]

I changed my mind from Darox being his most likely partner, because after re-reading i realised that there was a pretty noticable confrontation between Darox and armix nearer the beginning.
[...]
I also don't like the way you have been ripping apart and over-analyzing all of my posts. [

In reference to Caf

]

Darox is probably a misguided Townie Newb who is so arrogant in her beliefs about me

Caf19, as probable scum
[...]
Darox, most likely as a misguided townie

bandwagons are very detrimental to the town.

I am still undecided between who is Armix's scum buddy, between Caf and Darox. Both seem equally dillusional and agressive, and my opinion keeps going back and forth. Taking everything into consideration i'd probably say Caf19.

VOTE: ARMIX, CAF19 AND DAROX

I'd guess at you and Armlx being scum buddies but realise you could be the unhelpful townie and Caf could be scum.

Unvote: Vote Darox [

Previously voting Armlx

]

I keep thinking it's Darox who is Armlx's scum buddy but then you post and i revert back to you Caf

Is that enough evidence for you?

[Darox]

Last one of these, I promise.

This is actually an amalgamated quote from two different posts, but it was the start of my spidersense on Darox:

Unvote, Vote: Qman

Lets get this bandwagon rolling, maybe we might hear something from him.

Wrong play, let the mod sort it out in the case of people who just aren't posting unless they are active elsewhere on the site.

I had no intention of getting Qman even as far as -2, I wanted to see if I could get a rise out of him and spark some discussion.

Voting without actually intending to lynch someone is not good play. Stating out loud that you were never going to see it through to completion is even worse. This looks like avoidance of actual scumhunting; despite the fact that I think the flak Darox got at the time is overwrought (probably tunnel-visioning on armlx), I don't like this series of posts.

Bad play on my part. Should have realized that what I did wouldn't achieve much.

For now, I am fine with Mike and armlx both staying alive today, but if I don't hear what armlx has to say on the matter day 2 then I think we should lynch both of them, starting with armlx.

Not just one, but two future lynches. This is VERY confident for a week into D1.

I have responded to previous mentions of this here.

I swear i am townie, voting for me is a mistake.

I really, really don't like that appeal.

...

I wasn't so sure before, but I think Bazza merits more attention today then Armlx.

Vote: Bazza-Scumfinder

This seems "off" to me. Earlier he was all about armlx, now that the wagon has grown he shifts to Bazza. Maybe I missed some context, but this seems like Darox-armlx have distanced sufficiently, and now are going for the kill.

We need the rest of the town in here.

Time to string up the weasel?

Antsy much?

I already answered to both of these here as well as in this post.

Oh, and Clammy, the remarks at the end of 298 are more of the same line as 'Can we string this weasel up?' because even then we still didn't have opinions from Qman, angelmouse, or yourself. I was getting annoyed with the back and forth between Bazza and armlx/me and wanted the rest of the town to speak up so we could reach a decision.

Hey hey, the first sign that someone thinks I might be scummy. I was wondering when that would happen.

Not quite the reaction I would have expected from a first-time player, in a pro-town role, with their first suspicion leveled at them.

Up until then I felt like I was being largely ignored. I was also excited in being able to see what others thought I was doing wrong, in order to improve my gameplay. Given that you are assuming all first time players would act similarly, looks to be a weak tell.

I just reread what I typed and realized I ignored the possibility of Bazza being town, but following that route doesn't seem to provide any sizable clues. It basically means anyone aside from Bazza could be scum.

This jumps out at me as stirring the pot for D2. "Whoops, who could have expected that Bazza would be scum? Now what?!? Hey, how about...<person I lined up a case against earlier>..."

Scummy.

At this point he's said that Brandi, armlx, and clammy all need to be looked into D2.

I'm assuming you meant "Who could have expected that Bazza would be town," because if he is scum that was a good lynch.
I suggested Brandi or Clammy were possible buddies if Bazza turned out scum, and only if he turned out scum.
Suspicions against armlx were a continuation from my suspicions of his early actions towards mike. If Bazza turned out scum, I would be a bit less suspicious of Armlx, but if he turned out town I would be more suspicious of Armlx, because of his previous actions and the fact he was first on Bazza's case.

[Darox]

i said that if i die the townies will probably go after Armlx and you. why would that be the case if i was found to be mafia??? considering you two have been the most vocal in pushing for my lynch.

Read the quotes again, you didn't suggest we might be suspicious, you said we should be lynched without question.

[Darox]

Whats the vote count like at the moment?

[Darox]

Yeah, I am.

And armlx is spelt with a L, something Bazza also gets wrong a lot.

[Darox]

Time to make a list of vague feelings..

• 1.
  Bazza-Scumfinder
  Desperately trying to get anyone lynched but himself. He compromises his campaign against armlx by immediately jumping ship as soon as he sees a better shot at dodging the lynch. Doing so removed any remaining doubts I had that he might just be a really dumb townie.
  
• 2.
  armlx
  Mike-zim, and the defense thereof. Bad action as town or scum. Makes zero sense as town. Aside from that looks pretty neutral.
  
• 3.
  clammy
  Looked ok right up until he voted for Bazza because Bazza used the words 'tunnel visioned.' After I called him out on this, promptly jumps off the wagon and attacks me.
  
  
• caf19
  Neutral, seems to look shady in the eyes of others but I haven't really seen it.
  
• mike-zim
  DarlaBlueEyes
  Mostly silent despite being tagged by armlx as 'special', doesn't seem to get it. Seems vaguely townish. Darla replacing in seems to confirm this in part due to her responses to my queries on her opinion of mike/armlx.
  
• Brandi
  Neutral. Doesn't seem to really have a case on anyone.
  
• Qman
  Neutral positive, provides some decent coverage of the game, but seems to be summarizing more than anything.
  
• angelmouse
  Mr. Flay
  Replacing in for the silent Angelmouse. Provided good input, although does contradict self when discussing the armlx/mike connection. Misses some other details, but to be expected due to replacing in.

Oh, and finally, this seems to be happening a lot.

Saying "I think that guy is shady" =/= "Hand me the shotgun Billy"

Saying "I think that guy is shady" == "Whats your angle?/Who are you working for?"

[Darox]

Wait, you are using META in a newbie game as a first time mafiascum player to determine if armlx is scum?

Yeah, I don't buy it.

By the way, you didn't say they will 'probably' go after us, you said "i urge everyone to go after him and Darox." Ah, the convenience of posting a list of quotes showing why Bazza is guilty.

And you people honestly believe he is a dumb town rather than desperate scum? Hes doing everything in his power to lynch anyone but himself.

I think armlx is suspicious but I have problems with any lynch that Bazza supports.

Votecount:

Armlx [3] (Mr. Flay, Qman, Bazza)
Bazza [2] (Armlx, Darox)
Darox [1] (Clammy)

Not Voting [3] (Brandi, caf19, mike-zim)

[Darox]

No, not Darla's meta that thinks you are town.

Bazza's meta that convinces him you are scum.

[Darox]

Oh wait, slight misread.

i know by the way Armlx has played that he is scum"

Could be interpreted either way.

[Darox]

Posting from Paris, which means my keyboard is buggered. It's a nice city though.

Flay reminded me of another reason why I don't like Bazza's moves. He gets very friendly with anyone that seems to be remotely supportive of him.

I'm not going to vote armlx. Not while Bazza is still hanging about and crying for blood.

Way back yonder I said Clammy should help the town if he does more than focus solely on me. He hasn't done much else. For that, and other reasons already posted by myself, Clammy is creeping up to overtake armlx as my #2 suspect.

Greetings from Paris, it will be a while until I can next post.

[Darox]

My limited access is that I am in France, soon to be Germany.

I'm annoyed, to say the least. Bazza better start eating his ear like he promised for being wrong about armlx and crying for his blood.

Right now, I really don't like Clammy.

Hopped off Bazza's case as soon as I mentioned a passing suspicion, hopped off my case when the armlx wagon was gaining momentum, without giving good reasons for it. Look at clammy's votes on Bazza and Armlx, both times clammy provides some nonsense as reasoning.

On Bazza, Clammy stated that Bazza was 'stealing' arguments, by using the phrase 'tunnel visioned' that clammy had used in a post just before. Incidentally, I had used the phrase about 8-10 pages earlier.

On armlx, clammy stated he was not clammy's prefered lynch but was fine with putting him at L-1, and on top of that, clammy felt the need to add that armlx had 'the same birthday' thus was scummy.

It may be a while till I can next post, so I'm going to vote now.

Vote: Clammy

[Darox]

Clammy needs to reads what I typed way back when.

I voted clammy because he looks supicious and I wanted to see something happen. It did.

Happy with my vote for now.

[Darox]

Lets try and deal with some of this.

I voted and stayed on Bazza's case because I thought there was a good chance he was scum, and if he wasn't, I thought he would be a serious liability for the town if he survived to any kind of end game situation.

I voted clammy while he was on vacation because I am also on vacation and I decided to do it while I could. I wasn't worried too much about it because I thought the people in this game wouldn't do anything rash and lynch someone without giving them plenty of time to explain themselves.

Speaking of which, I don't quite understand some peoples justifications for putting me at L-1 this early in the day.

Clammy, I never said once that your case on me has been inconsistant and/or weakly justified. I said your votes on others have been.

Looking back.... in the very beginning. One specific thing I don't like:

Bazza and Qman still AWOL.

Unvote, Vote: Qman

Lets get this

bandwagon

rolling, maybe we might hear something from him.

and then a few posts later...

Wrong play, let the mod sort it out in the case of people who just aren't posting unless they are active elsewhere on the site.

I had no intention of getting Qman

even as far as -2

, I wanted to see if I could get a rise out of him and spark some discussion.

If you had no intention of getting him to 'even as fat as -2', then why blatantly state that you wanted a 'bandwagon'? Wanting bandwagons that early for something as trivial as being a tad bit inactive seems very fishy...

I can't believe this was overlooked.

Er, what?

This has been mentioned and explained previously. I didn't want to see Qman swinging from the gallows, because he certainly didn't do anything then to merit it, but I did want him to speak up more.

Reading over in general, there seem to be some major inconsistencies in Darox's level of towniness. At some points he seems very pro town, and at others he seems really scummy. The point of his so called suspicions against clammy is another major point of scuminess. It feels like he is just trying to muster up a new easy lynch target for D2... which it looks like he's been subtly trying to do since D1.

VOTE: Darox

Again, can someone please show me in the rule book where expressing suspicions = setting up a lynch?

Also, I don't get your final point. If expressing suspicion early then kickstarting a lynch mob ASAP D2 is scummy, that makes me the easy lynch and clammy and to a lesser extent yourself scummy.

I like Qmans posts on Darla, but not enough for now to change my vote, especially considering the two votes already on Darla.

When I get back home I need to do a re-read.

[Darox]

I was only critical of people that thought he was geniune town but still thought he should die.

I, like I said before, thought Bazza was scum. My thoughts about him being a liability as town were secondary and not why I was voting him, but they are the reason I don't feel that bad about him dying and flipping town.

When did I purposely express invalid suspicions? I didn't even mention anything Qman had done except that he was quiet. Like I have said before, I wanted to see if he would do anything with a couple of votes stacked against him.

What I want to see, actually, is Flay's opinions on Darla and Caf.

More from Darla would also be nice, of course.

[Darox]

Poke poke poke, is that all you do?

Still waiting for rundowns by others.

[Darox]

I'm still really waiting for flay and darla to come and say something about darla's actions. I want darla to speak up first though, due to recent occurrences.

Reading some of the earlier pages, I saw things that made me more suspicious of Mike-Zim/Darla, and made me think I was going in the wrong direction in regards to clammy.

Because of this, I will do the following.

Unvote, Vote: DarlaBlueEyes

Darla is now at L-1

You have no excuse for accidentally hammering.

[Darox]

Reading over the early game made me think I was going in the wrong direction and that you were in fact not as scummy as I believed.

Where as reading over mikes early game, Darla's replacing in, Darla's actions D2, and especially Darla's actions at the top of this page, convinced me I should act.

Caf, it was a variety of things, but things that stick out are armlx's comments on clammy, the various comments made by mike early, as well as of course Darla's comments when she first replaced in and everything she's done D2.

[Darox]

Darox, your last post is INCREDIBLY vague. Could you use less pronouns/dangling participles, please? Who is "you" in that first sentence?

My apologies.

I was referring to clammy in the first sentence.

[Darox]

The annoying thing about Brandi's phone posting is that all her paragraphs about the game get deleted/whatever and all the messages telling us she can't send anything get through.

[Darox]

What's also annoying is how Darox keeps claiming things to be annoying as if hes trying to use his peeves as valid suspicions.

Wait, what?

[Darox]

Brandi's last post means both Darla and myself are at L-1, with Mr. Flay holding the deciding vote.



Meanwhile, it's Darox's list.
From most townie to most scummy:
Qman - His play throughout the game has looked solid to me.
Mr. Flay - Similar to Qman, looks to be doing things right.
Clammy - Recent rereads have made me doubt my previous conviction that clammy is scum. Seems slightly dubious in places but comes out on the town side of neutral.
Caf19 - Enigma. Doesn't ever seem to come off overtly town or scum. I would place him as neutral, bordering on slightly scummy.
Brandi - Her arguments and actions end of D1 through to now look off. Moderately scummy.
DarlaBlueEyes - Scummy.

[Darox]

I've been wondering.

Qman, what would you do if Darla flipped town?

Clammy, what you would you do if Darla flipped scum? If I flipped town?
Brandi, what would you do if Darla flipped scum? If I flipped town?

Call it idle curiosity.

[Darox]

It seems my worries were not unjustified.

My fear was, if Darla did flip town, it looks real bad for our chances D3.

Brandi+clammy would go for me right off the bat, which puts me in L-1. I don't think Qman or Flay would hammer me, but I'm not liking those chances, especially since that leaves Caf19 as the decider, who is still largely unaccounted for.

I am reminded also of Bazza in Darla's last post, and we all know how that turned out. This is enough to remove my vote for now.

Unvote

[Darox]

@Brandi:

Clammy has had me pegged as scum for a long time, and should anyone but me die and flip town, will almost certainly vote me D3.
Given your last post, you are almost certainly going to vote me as well.

This means if just one of you is not scum, the remaining scum will hammer me.
Game over.

False dilemma? If I survive to D3 and we don't lynch scum, that looks like a pretty real possibility to me. Downplaying the danger of this isn't going to help us.

This is the main reason I don't want to see Darla go to the noose prematurely.

I loved the way you edited my words by the way.

Vote: Caf19

Votecount (Cause Flameaxe is lazy)
Brandi [1] - Qman
Darla [1] - Caf19
Darox [2] - Darla, Brandi
Caf19 [2] - clammy, Darox

Not Voting - Mr. Flay

7 Alive, 4 to lynch.

[Darox]

I'm not certain of Darla enough to risk lynching her today.

Brandi is currently my top suspect, but I don't have anything on caf. This worries me.

Hence my vote.

[Darox]

I have stated my reasons for voting Caf. I have already detailed that he seems rather enigmatic, and I think this doing this will help me decide how to act later today.

Of course, to do this he will need to post, so I will sign the petition to

get Caf19 prodded

.

[Darox]

Caf has said enough for me to do this.

Unvote, Vote Brandi

I am still uneasy about darla being todays lynch.

[Darox]

Votecount:
Darox [3] - DarlaBlueEyes, Brandi, clammy
DarlaBlueEyes [2] - Caf19, Mr. Flay
Brandi [2] - Qman, Darox

I'd be happier lynching Brandi, but if it comes down to it I will vote Darla.

Actually, since it looks like the town has decided with a 3/4 split that Darla is today's lynch, I will

Unvote, Vote DarlaBlueEyes

[Darox]

Darla, Brandi, and you are all set on me. That makes 3.

Caf19 hasn't moved his vote since the start of the day, Flay chose Darla, and Qman said he would rather Darla vote. And I'm not going to self hammer. That makes 4.

I don't see anyone else reaching as many as three votes.
Thus, 3/4 split between Darox/Darla.

As for the vote count, whats wrong with it? I did the vote count up till that point, then changed my vote.
I don't see how it shows me trying to cause an accidental lynch because A: The only person not voting on either me or Darla is Qman, who and stated very recently "[he] would still vastly prefer a darla lynch" and B: My vote is in the same post as the VC. It is in bold. It is not buried in text or at the end of a page long post.

[Darox]

I would regard you as a safer lynch Brandi.

It would make me feel less nervous waiting for the D2 lynch scene when the alignment is revealed.

However, both you and Darla are the people I suspect the most right now.

[Darox]

Brandi just hammered Darla. All my faith in the lynch has been lost.

[Darox]

It is not against the rules to inform a mod of in-game developments that require his attention.

[Darox]

Wait what?

"Bah"

[Darox]

Why was I the NK choice night two?