Newbie 783 - Mongol Mafia - Game Over

[ekiM]

/confirming

[ekiM]

Hi, ivan.

No lynch is no good; it cedes control of the game to the scum and pins our hopes on power roles we may not even have.

Vote: Jarmo

. Lurker scum.

[ekiM]

I've played a couple of games on another forum, and have a couple of finished games here. I'm a newbie, but I'd like to think I'm picking things up fairly quickly.

Jarmo, Pablo Molinero: Do you think it's productive to vote for people for not knowing basic theory? Is there any possibility that Blyndsikick is wily scum who knows that NL is bad and is aiming to somehow trick us into doing it anyway?

[ekiM]

At this point in the discussion, I have to go off what is out there. For the moment, he seems the best vote to me. It may change, at which point, my vote will change.

We;re all kind of going blindly in the dark together. We go off what we have.

Purely out of interest, did you actually find his move scummy or was it one of those reflexive vote-for-the-anti-town-newbie moves?

I play on debate.org, however games regularly consist of 25-ish people... we get all sorts of roles, roles that might be truly detrimental if lynched and usually enough information is gained on night phase 1 to help the town come day phase 2... It kinda never occurred to me that with this few people, and such a limited amount of resources as far as night actions go that we might not get info come tomorrow, hence my no-lynch vote...

Anyone else fine it vaguely amusing that debate.org Mafia games are more about power roles than, well, debate?

What is everyone's favorite role (or what you most want to play as if you've never played before)? I find the deduction of being plain-ol' vanilla town is the most fun and that I still have no damned idea how to play as a good mafia member.

Vanilla townie. It's more fun to be figuring things out than to pretend to be.

And

Vote: ekiM

for questioning my brilliance in his last post.

Pff. Voting for the newbie who suggests no lynch isn't especially brilliant!

Unvote

Vote: Jarmo

Bandwagon-a-go-go.

I heartily endorse this.

[ekiM]

At this point in the discussion, I have to go off what is out there. For the moment, he seems the best vote to me. It may change, at which point, my vote will change.

We;re all kind of going blindly in the dark together. We go off what we have.

Purely out of interest, did you actually find his move scummy or was it one of those reflexive vote-for-the-anti-town-newbie moves?

It was a vote for the anti-townie move. This, remember, was prior to knowing he was such a newbie (granted the thread kind more or less gives the odds of him being a newbie). I've found those voting for no lynch the first day right off the bat tend to be either mafia or those that aren't quite sure how to play through a game. Both ways, in my opinion, can hurt the townie chances of winning.

Interesting. Can you link to any games where mafia have seriously pushed for a no lynch on day one (and it would advantage them if it went through)?

[ekiM]

Unvote

.

Shadeaux, you've put Jarmo at L-1 without comment on that. Care to explain that?

FoS: Shadeaux

Vote: purple princess

, I find nothing scummy whatsoever in what you quote from Pablo Molinero. Was that really the best thing you could find in the thread to comment on and draw suspicions from? I think it would be more useful if you commented on the Jarmo wagon, the people on it, and reactions to it.

[ekiM]

Was that really the best thing you could find in the thread to comment on and draw suspicions from?

First day voting is essentially random,there is no real information to make decisions on, instead relying on gut feelings or potential slip ups. Reasoning at this early stage isn't as important as provoking a reaction ( and hence potentially revealling more information for the whole town's benefit). It would seem my vote did its job.

Are you saying your vote for Pablo was random? I'm not liking two random votes.

What reaction were you hoping to elicit by voting for a seemingly nonsensical reason? What have reactions to your vote told you?

I also don't like the defeatist sentiment. The first day can be much better than random, if we play well.

I think it would be more useful if you commented on the Jarmo wagon, the people on it, and reactions to it.

re the Jarmo wagon - i don't beleve he has done anything in particular to deserve any of the votes he has gotten so far. This has all escalted from your initial vote for him (for being lurker scum, which i think hes pretty much proven to be untrue) as there has been so little discussion so far that anyone defending themselves is likely to attract more votes (either through lack of information, inexperience of voters or through trying to jump on a "safe" bandwagon and get an innocent killed)

You talk about my initial vote for Jarmo as though I intended "lurker scum" to be a serious reason. It was not, and I think that's fairly clear. I was placing a second vote on someone because starting up mini-bandwagons is a good way to get activity going.

I wonder, why have you only directly discussed my reason for voting Jarmo? What do you think of Danny putting a third vote on him? How about Shadeaux putting Jarmo at L-1 with little comment?

[ekiM]

Initially directed at PP, but it would be helpful if everyone weighed in on the wagon and reactions to it.

[ekiM]

All townies win if the town wins right? Regardless of if dead or alive. If so then I'm more than fine with this happening.

How does provoking suspicion of yourself help the town win, though?

This is LITERALLY my first game. As such i know practically nothing about Mafia game theory, tactics or tells. I find the best way to learn is by jumping straight in, so if you see me doing anything particularly wrong please explain why so.

This is exactly why some (semi) random voting is a good thing.

Incongruous.

Anyway, random voting is fine. Random voting a second time is more dubious.

If everyone "plays well" then surely first day IS a random vote?

I'm not sure. Do you think so? The town are trying to generate information, detect scum, and direct lynches towards scum. The scum are trying to avoid attention and direct lynches towards townies and away from themselves. If one outplays the other, the other gets lynched. What happens if both parties are equally skilled? Anyway, this is kind of tangential...

For lack of better suspicion, really. Indeed it's shoddy evidence at best, but it's D1 after all.

But thinking about it, even hovering at L-1, I honestly doubted any proper townie would've quick-lynched without much further consideration (despite being a newbie game).

A scum, however, might be quite tempted to. And Jarmo would've definitely been obligated to scrounge a defense, or at least talk more. Surely it looks scummy on my part, but I'd risk it to put the pressure.

Why didn't you point out that you were putting him at L-1?

[ekiM]

Welcome. Thoughts please!

[ekiM]

OK, so you were aware you were putting him at L-1 without saying so. Were you setting a trap as you describe? Or were you scum leaving a townie at L-1 hoping a newbie might not realize he was at L-1 and hammer him, taking out a townie and setting themself up to get lynched on Day 2. Hmm?

[ekiM]

I don't think either would quick lynch intentionally. It seems to me that someone caught by your trap would most likely be a careless newbie making a mistake. That's not a trap that a townie would want to set.

But I'm beating a dead horse now.

You wanna move on from this subject? Well, I can see why.

Unvote; Vote Shadeaux

.

[ekiM]

Did Shadeaux ever explain why he "gambled" that he could "trap" a newbie scum into quicklynching, and why this wasn't a disaster waiting to happen? Sorry, this guy is still reeking.

I have no idea why Icerint has a pro-town read on FT.

Pablo - why are you voting PP then suggesting a lurker lynch?

Mod: Penguana?

Everyone else: DDD is right; voting someone who just isn't here does nothing.

[ekiM]

I'd like a proper explanation from him. I actually found the last thing he said on the subject quite scummy:

Sure you can toss the two options around all day. Do YOU think a townie would've quick-lynched Jarmo? Or a scum would've been more likely? I gambled the latter. But I'm beating a dead horse now.

That's scarcely a good explanation, and he makes like we have to move on, there's no point discussing this. I don't buy it and vote him, and he hasn't responded to that at all. I wonder why?

Also, ivan's "let's not talk about Shadeaux, let's talk about PP" thing was.. well.

[ekiM]

Let's play player analysis:

DebonairDannDiPietro: No anti-town behavior here. Sassy! Semi-experienced, so am I expecting anything scummy yet? No.

Furpants_Tom: As Blind Psychic, called for no lynch. That's a newb-tell. As Furpants_Tom, mostly neutral.

sitting here, with my vote dangling on someone who is clearly not under threat is only going to make me look scummier

Not a great thing to say. I like the idea of getting everyone active. Not liking the suggestion to get people who are passive-lurking up to L-whatever. They need prods.

ivanavich: Playing much the same as he did in the last game I played with him. Quite terse. I don't like this:

Wo cares if Shadoux put him at l1 when you compare it to PP voting with no good reason and when confronted about it changed to random vote.

or this

So by your reasoning you can tell if someone is mafia by placing a vote on him/her asking questions and examing the answers given?

I think you should try putting the person under pressure by having3-4 votes and then asking some important questions.

Mostly neutral so far I guess.

Iecerint: As Jarmo said.. not much. Voted for the NL guy, and got bandwagonned without saying much. Meh. Nothing to complain about in Icerint's post.

Pablo Molinero: A pro-town looking IC. Who wouldda thunk it?

Penguana: Who?

Mod: does this guy need a replacement?

PP: Awful vote for Pablo. Saying it's OK to draw suspicion because she's a good townie who doesn't care if she dies is facepalmworthy. Since then, quiet and non committal. Her "defence" post is lame, but actually smells like town, especially putting her suspicions out there.

Shadeaux: Putting someone at L-1 without warning that you've done so is bad. Claiming it was a trap is worse. Saying "well, maybe it could've ruined the town, but let's forget it" is facepalmworthy. Ignoring my vote on him is... well, maybe I'm being egotistical here but I thought it was at least worth responding to. Scum! Maybe.

Slow game is slow. Maybe if everyone posts their thoughts we'll actually get someplace?

[ekiM]

I don't necessarily mind you grilling me, as I do acknowledge that your suspicions are perfectly acceptable. I twice explained what I could in two posts -- however poor you think my explanation was -- hence why I said I'm beating a dead horse (as I'm just repeating myself now), but not necessarily that you are.

I don't really have anything else to ask you about that vote. I think putting someone at L-1 on a fairly random bandwagon in a newbie game without passing comment is anti-town because someone might hammer in error, possibly costing us two townies for nothing. If it was just a mistake on your part, that'd have been fine. Trying to spin it as a cunning trap to catch a scumbag doesn't smell right to me at all, because it seems just as likely to go horribly wrong as to achieve anything.

There's not much else to say about it, I suppose.

But, sure, what more would you like to ask me? (other than that you think "it's scummy", which even I myself admitted as much)

Who is scum?

FT clarified it, but he's right: it was because of my view of Mr. NL's behavior. I'll quote the relevant text from my own post below

If you think FT's no good and I'm giving his predecessor too much of the benefit of the doubt, please let me know.

Well like I said I think suggesting NL is completely a null-tell. Inexperienced scum can still work out that they ought to try and suggest things that are pro-town, and inexperienced players often don't intuitively understand the reason NLD1 is bad, whether they are scum or town. If he'd played before in a PR-heavy environment where NL really was good for town, and he was trying to look good as scum...

I think it's a null-tell.

FT has been pretty neutral so far in his posts, I feel. Nothing especially scummy, but no heavily pro-town incisive comments either. Early days.

Re: Penguana - that's an interesting post you've highlighted. It could indeed be scum twisting the truth to their own ends, or it could just be someone not paying attention. Hopefully the dude will come back or get replaced soon! This stage in the game is pretty slow if a few of the players aren't even active.

[ekiM]

Welcome, Katy.

Well like I said I think suggesting NL is completely a null-tell. Inexperienced scum can still work out that they ought to try and suggest things that are pro-town, and inexperienced players often don't intuitively understand the reason NLD1 is bad, whether they are scum or town.

If he'd played before in a PR-heavy environment where NL really was good for town, and he was trying to look good as scum...

.

I think it's a null-tell.

FT has been pretty neutral so far in his posts, I feel. Nothing especially scummy, but no heavily pro-town incisive comments either. Early days.

Italics are mine. You're correct that it could be that I'm underestimating BS/FT. However, his lack of avatar and so forth lead me to believe that I'm not. Sure, it's circumstantial, but it's just Day 1, what can ya do. :p

He said he'd played before in a PR-heavy environment.

I play on debate.org, however games regularly consist of 25-ish people... we get all sorts of roles, roles that might be truly detrimental if lynched and usually enough information is gained on night phase 1 to help the town come day phase 2... It kinda never occurred to me that with this few people, and such a limited amount of resources as far as night actions go that we might not get info come tomorrow, hence my no-lynch vote...

Even though voting for penguana to pressure him maybe wasn't necessarily so sharp in hindsight, I'd like to suggest that taking PP back to L-2 from L-1 was a pro-town move in a game like this.

That wasn't his stated rationale. I find your need to justify your read on FT interesting.

[ekiM]

Haven't seen either of Shadeaux or PP since the start of the weekend. Their behavior has been suspect, but I want to hear more from them. Deadline is about six days time.

Katy seems fine.

Hoping DDD, Pablo, FT can give some more comment.

[ekiM]

Haven't seen either of Shadeaux or PP since the start of the weekend. Their behavior has been suspect, but I want to hear more from them. Deadline is about six days time.

Katy seems fine.

Hoping DDD, Pablo, FT can give some more comment.

[ekiM]

OK, I'm not liking Tracker's contributions at all. The calls for cogent contributions while adding little are unhelpful. 184 complains about lack of depth in posting, whilst giving no reasons for most of his reads. I'm not sure what the distinction between "making observations" and "adding to the game" is supposed to be. I hate his defense of Shadow's L-1 move. He's not taking any firm stances. "No particular order, but in descending order of scumminess" is just bizarre. "Amlost ready to place a pressure vote" --- if you tell us a vote is just for pressure, it does nothing. OK he 'pressure voted' DDD. This is a useless vote, and useless votes are anti-town.

Where is FT's promised analysis? Hmm. He's been jovial, which is OK, but seems to be lacking a little now we lead up to deadline.

Happy with my vote. Will be around more than I have been over the next few days.

[ekiM]

ok

i should clarify the list,

i didn't arrange them in groups for nothing

the top 2 groups were the scummier

middle were the nuetral reads

bottom were the townish reads,

if the village wants to post lists in order, i'll post lists in order, but i think that it's a mistake, and unless someone can convince me otherwise, i don't think i'll change it.

You already posted lists in order but said that you didn't.

lurking isn't a solid scum tell, that's why i'm hesitant to vote on it, or anything like it. the only reason to vote on it is to encourage lurkers to stop,

the game is picking up now so it's not as much of a problem

Backtracking.

ekim you said that he hated my defense of my shadow's action, can you be more specific?

preferabably quotes, but you can paraphrase if you like.

You basically repeated what Shadow had said, which had already been found wanting.

Deadline is in the middle of the night for me. I'll be able to check the thread again before I go to bed in ~5 hours time. After that though I won't be around to move my vote.

[ekiM]

Oh man, I sure have sucked at life for the past couple of weeks.

I still have no pbpa. And I can't claim to have read the thread closely enough to have gotten a better feel for either semioldguy or tracker. I do know, however, that I thought Purple Princess was much dodgier than Shadeaux, and that carries over to SOG.

Vote: Semioldguy

I realise that my vote at this point has no effect barring a switch from one of the tracker voters; but it's important to flag my suspicions in a verifiable way, so that the rest of you can properly analyse me later. I also promise that if I haven't managed to put in some proper analysis by about a week into the next day, I'll request a replacement. Sorry about this.

Idea: He knows tracker is town and is posting this to make it clear that he's more suspicious of someone else, that so he looks good when the (at that point fairly inevitable) flip comes. Still being vague enough to allow him to change his mind later. Never came up with the goods analysis-wise.

unvote
vote: Semioldguy

putting SOG at L-1, nobody shove him into the noose w/o more info however, it's not that time yet. we need more analysis before lynching,

Wow, just read up to this. If you don't want him lynched, don't put him at L-1. I get that you're not keen on a lynching, but this is just raw scumtell. How is tracker not dead already?

His last two posts are the proverbial nails in my opinion. In ISO 18 he reneges completely on the lurker hunt and admits to it being not a solid scum-tell, so his biggest contribution to the game was a pointless endeavor. Then in his last post he votes for SOG putting him at L-1, despite having expressed basically no interest in him previously and with no reasons in his post that I can see.

QFT

It's hammer-time.

Unvote

Vote: tracker

I don't see how this is a scumtell at all, let alone a reason for a lynch without asking for a claim.

Coupled with his failing to deliver analyses he promised, general lack of contribution.

Vote: Furpants_Tom

[ekiM]

Unvote

Hello, Michel.

I'll stop harassing you if 4 players ask me to. I count you and ivan so far.

Please do, the theory blather is a pointless distraction. Accusing DDD of trying to convince everyone to discard all tells and lynch randomly is... interesting, also.

eKim: Why is he picking on Jarmo so much day 1? First he calls him out as lurker scum on day 1 at the beginning of the game when he hadn’t had chance to post yet. When Jarmo begins posting, he continues endorsing votes on him enthusiastically for little reason that I can see.

As game goes on, however, I agree completely with his reasoning. I would like to get an explanation for his leaning on Jarmo so heavily from the get-go, but in general I am thinking he is town.

Calling him lurker scum was my random vote. I endorsed a bandwagon on him at the start to get the game moving.

I ask you all for your input on whether I should seek a replacement or not. I would say 3 people chiming in would do the trick.

If you can keep playing, do so.

ekiM, I would really like you to participate more.

OK. I have to admit it's simply been apathy on my part. Games where nearly every player is replaced are highly demoralizing. I'll do my best.

What is your current read of ivan?

Ivan is being fairly quiet. He is less involved than he was in the previous game that I played with him. Nothing hackle-raising though. His outlines of his thoughts seem consistent with being town, and I haven't seen anything from him that I would call a scumtell. At a guess, town.

---

Thinking.

[ekiM]

ekiM, in your ISO (reading you in isolation. This can be done by selecting "display posts from previous: all posts by ekiM" and pressing go)posts 5-8, you are putting quite a bit of pressure on purple princess. After that, though, you completely drop the subject, focussing almost entirely on Shadeaux/tracker during day 1. Why?

Because I thought Shadeaux/tracker was scum.

Iecerint, roleclaim please.

[ekiM]

As it stands, there's plenty of time until the deadline, I just came up with an Argument H, and ekiM and ivan haven't weighed-in on the circumstances yet.

Argument H begins "If I was set on...". This is strawmanning and/or begging the question. It's not necessary for you to have planned the whole time to lynch tracker then SOG for it to be scummy for you to later argue that we should lynch SOG largely because he was the second biggest wagon yesterday and tracker flipped town.

Moreover, this post you cited doesn't even seem to suggest at all strongly that towntrackerflip clears SOG.

I consider ekiM's last post to be completely unsatisfying. It does not contain anything about recent discussion.

The recent discussion is completely unsatisfying. It does not contain anything to elucidate who is scummy.

359: Ice continues to push the bad argument that one of tracker and SOG should be scum because two newbies wouldn't have made play errors on day one.

360-364 cruft

365: Ice 'It seems like you've played with ekiM before. Does he always use ellipses in his posts as he's been doing?' --- what?

366 - 374 cruft

376 - 378 reasonable posts I have nothing to say about

379-381 - bad arguments from ice

383 - SOG called 379 scummy I agree

384 - bad rebuttal

... and this becomes too tedious to continue. Sorry. These walls of text are not doing it for me.

The answer given to my question does not explain why he did no longer discuss PP.

I'm not sure what more explanation you're hoping for. I thought PP's vote on Pablo was terrible and her participation was lacking so I focussed on her for a while. I found Shadeaux's uncommented vote to L-1 more egregious so I moved onto him. PP's later contributions were weak but that seemed more like a symptom of newness than something more sinister.

Asking for a claim strongly implies he's willing to vote. He hasn't given any reasons for being willing to vote though.

Because I think Iecerint is likely scum.

• Selectively citing dead players as support.
  
• Extensive theoretical discussion and weak scumhunting.
  
• False dichotomy between tracker and SOG.
  
• Pushing on SOG based on little.

[ekiM]

A great wailing and gnashing of teeth. Sorry, I am in crunch mode at work and am having trouble finding the time. I've spent a couple of hours reading and putting together this (still woefully inadequate) post. I hope I will have more time to give to this in a few days and I'm sorry for letting you all down with my current level of participation.

I don't follow this; maybe you misunderstood/I was unclear about Argument H? If the recent post doesn't clarify/change matters, please clarify the above for me.

No, I just think it's a bad argument.

Like 4 times up til now that I've noticed you've kind of hinted that something someone has done was scummy without really explaining it, and then you add an ellipsis afterwards. I can recall offhand that you did this in response to BS-defense (you were implying, I think, that I was scum-protecting-scum, but you were vague) and when I attacked penguana for making shit up (you were implying, tautologically, that I could be correct or not, but you were again vague). I think you'd also done it again at someone just before I asked ivan about it. If you always do it, then it's just a stylistic thing, but if you don't and it's some kind of tool for letting people take what they will out of your posts, then it could be a scumtell based on meta. So I've asked ivan about his prior experience with you, as he has it and I don't.

This is a serious complaint? If you're not sure what I'm saying, ask for clarification.

What, you think it'd be pro-town to follow tracker's intuitions to you and DDD (and me as the "neutraler" read)? I think Pablo seemed somewhat more competent than tracker, and I don't think I'm alone in that opinion.

I don't think it's pro-town to treat dead townies reads as somehow privileged. Yes, we know they were made in good faith, but they were also Day 1 reads that were based on little.

Most of my "theoretical discussion" has been an attack on DDD's theoretical discussion, which is as reasonable a form of scumhunting as any, and I didn't even wait for Michel to do it for me.

No, it's pointless masturbation that makes the thread fat and bloated with ephemera and nearly impossible for me to follow closely enough in any reasonable timeframe. It's a distraction. Distractions are anti-town.

3. I didn't make a dichotomy; I listed all 4 possible conditions and assigned subjective probabilities to each. Reread Argument H.

4. I've listed over and over and over my reasons for suspecting SOG. You are choosing to ignore/disregard them

Uh, no. I just think they're bad reasons. How about you do a summary post where you don't waffle for a dozen sentences where one would do and sum up the top five points in you view against SOG.

After all, Argument H was based largely around your own requirements for a towntell, and I couldn't have delivered it to you if you hadn't told me them. I've been pretty active this game, so I have a lot of material to draw from (and I'm town, so I know I can give a town explanation for all of it).

Are you really unaware of how obnoxious and unpersuasive this is?

I would love if the people who are actually voting for Iecerint would give me a summary of their cases against him. All of this "Argument H" and "Shadetrack vs. PPSOG" is bogging me down and if I can get some nutshells then I can look again at relevant posts in context and try to think about it for myself.

• First of all he was on tracker's wagon and that is where I am looking for scum first off. He's the worst looking player on there by a long way (actually, worst in the game).
  
• His argument are generally poor, shifting, and disposable. He doesn't seem sincere in them. When scumhunting is severely lacking, it is sometimes because the player is scum. I could write volumes of complaints about his attempts at scumhunting in this point but others have done that and I don't want to bog down the thread even more.
  
• He's spending a lot of time pointing back at his past words and explaining how they are towntells. That's a raging scumtell, in my view.
  
• His waffly waffles make the thread inscrutable without adding any value. Possibly just incompetence, possibly scummy.

I know this isn't directed at me, but I can probably nutshell Argument H for you:

1. Scum that want to double mislynch players X and Y won't argue that lynching X will reduce Y's action's scumminess.
2. Iec did that.
3. Therefore, he was not scum that wanted to double mislynch players X and Y."

Just because you weren't planning on that originally doesn't mean that's not what you're doing today. Argument H has zero value.

I've been as active as can be trying to provide the town with as much evidence as I can of my townhood.

Seems like you're missing the fucking point by a very wide margin, son.

At the very beginning of Day 1, that did seem to be true of eKim but soon after the initial random voting stage, eKim's thinking in his posts seemed spot on to me. It was basically in agreement with my own thoughts about the events as I read through them and so I shrugged it off at the time as not seeing anything particularly suspicious. I did feel, and still do, that I'd like to hear more from him in general, but so far I feel that he's the person I would put at the top of my town list.

Yes sorry sorry.

3. Specific to my Argument H, DDD would almost have to be in on it for it to have been malicious on my part. The alternative is that I feigned misinterpreting PP's vote the entire game, was lucky enough to have no one correct me until I planned to use that fact, and then got DDD to correct me JUST as I had had the opportunity (which I could have made pages earlier) to post my reasons for tracker > SOG to free me up for suspecting you Day 2. If you don't think that is remote, I don't know what to say to you, other than that I hope you're not town.

Wow, or you could just say "Oh wait, I was wrong about that making it less likely he's scum, maybe he is after all"?? And who has been suggesting you had a fiendish plan all along? Nobody. Strawman.

Moreover, I think (and have stated) that a great scum tactic would be tell the town to ignore all tells, as they can trivially all be explained away. Doing as much leads to random lynches and a scum win on average, unless town has power roles to save the day. Incidentally, you and DDD have done this, and I think it's scummy.

Wow, please quote me where anyone said "ignore all tells". If not, please chalk up another scummy mark against you. Don't misrepresent people, ever. It's obvious, and, ding ding ding, SCUMMY.

Do any of the other players agree with Iecerint's responses or perspectives on this page?

I barely agree with a thing he says. And the vast majority of today has been him arguing with various people. It's infuriating. I don't understand how anyone can constantly make terrible arguments in good faith.

I think both eKim and Katy are playing this game on cruise control and it worries me that there's not enough interaction between those two and everyone else to get a real good read. I have no idea what eKim thinks of any other player besides Iecerint

I'm trying to rectify this, sorry.

---

• DDD - Hmmmmmm, I think he definitely has the upper hand when he grapples with Iecerint. I was feeling quite uneasy about DDD throught yesterday and some of today, after a while of thinking about it though I think it's more of a posting style thing though, it just unsettles me a little.
  
• Ivan - This way this guy is playing feels very much the same as it did when I played with him in a previous newbie game as town. He's not contributing as much as a lot of people, but he's putting his thoughts out there. I am concerned that if he's scum, we won't really have a lot of clues, but he feels townie to me.
  
• Michel - A competent player obviously and he's making fair arguments everywhere. Called for a delay on the Iecerint claiming business which is pretty pro-town I think (unless he's scum with Iece.....). I'm looking forwards to his completed analysis.
  
• Katy - KAty... obviously knows what she's doing. I feel like I haven't seen too much in the way of firm opinions from her. No way to compare meta, so I don't know what to read into this. I feel she could get a bit more involved (yes, I'm a hypocrite). edit: she has a recent post which makes me feel a bit better about knowing where she's coming from and says she will post more soon.
  
• SOG - Generally feel his scumhunting and analysis is good and fairly to the point. Some of the diversions with Iece are boggilingly pointless but oh well. Wasn't going after tracker yesterday, even as he was second biggest wagon, which I'm going to count in his favor. Doggedly stuck to Iece yesterday and today. Tunnelling? Maybe a bit, what does he think of everyone else?
  
• Iecerint - Scum? I think so. I fucking hope so. I'm boggled a lot if not.

Scum: Iece. Possible partners? Tricky, thinking Michel or Katy. They've both left themselves room to find him not scummy after their re-reads and argue for lynching someone else. DDD on an outside chance.

---

Probably not completely fair coming from me, but have you ever tried being concise? Since I went to bed yesterday evening, you made 7 lengthy posts, versus 6 from all other players together (most of which are a result of SOG arguing with you). When doing my reread, there were 6 players I had to read. The other 5 players in this game together made (including replacements) made about 200 posts (roughly 40 each). You made 110, most of them of considerable length. I post daily, and spent at least an hour before each post simply catching up with everything you wrote. Ivan has admitted he is short on time, and has posted about once every 2 or 3 days. So every time he logs on for this game, he has about 3 hours of reading to do before he can even post.

Agree about 237%. You don't need to write 1000000 words if your argument is clear in your mind. If it isn't clear, why not?

---

What would be awesome from everyone would be a SHORT summary of your thoughts on the game. You don't have to do every player but your top suspects and possible partners at least would be good. If you want to break out the walls of text to evaluate everything, do that too I guess.

[ekiM]

This [ekiM's use of ellipses] is a serious complaint? If you're not sure what I'm saying, ask for clarification.

I'll use short sentences so that this is minimally "complex," OK? It's not a complaint. It's a question for ivan. He has played with you before. I haven't. He knows your style. I don't. You have often used ellipses in conjunction with vague posts. This helps ekiMscum because he can lead people to wrong conclusions while appearing relatively blameless. I suspect you find this concern legitimate because you accused me of the same thing Day 1.

ivan, please answer the question. does ekiM always use ellipses as he has been doing? if not, is there reason to believe he uses them when scum?

If you read a post by me (or anyone) and it's vague, you should point this out and ask for clarification. That's perfectly reasonable, and yes if someone is chronically vague in a game it can be a decent scumtell. Getting animated about the use of a punctuation symbol, on the other hand...

The unwarranted condescension isn't working in your favor, by the way.

Argument H has zero value.

You're missing that Michel specifically accused me of trying to double-mislynch tracker and SOG. Argument H was intended specifically for that. I'm not saying that Argument H is some kind of ULTRATELL that blocks all scum attacks against me or something. But I do think it debunks Michel's main gripe with me as well as can be hoped without any scum caught.

You're missing that it's already been refuted.

3. Specific to my Argument H, DDD would almost have to be in on it for it to have been malicious on my part. The alternative is that I feigned misinterpreting PP's vote the entire game, was lucky enough to have no one correct me until I planned to use that fact, and then got DDD to correct me JUST as I had had the opportunity (which I could have made pages earlier) to post my reasons for tracker > SOG to free me up for suspecting you Day 2. If you don't think that is remote, I don't know what to say to you, other than that I hope you're not town.

Wow, or you could just say "Oh wait, I was wrong about that making it less likely he's scum, maybe he is after all"?? And who has been suggesting you had a fiendish plan all along? Nobody. Strawman.

ekiM, you fail at at least one of reading, thinking, and expressing your views. Does anyone else see some connection he's attempting to make here?

I think the problem is on your end. Argument H is garbage, that has been explained to you by at least myself and Michel and you just ignore that and repeat it.

If you really need it said, again:

• A post in the past where you express a weak belief that tracker flipping town makes SOG less scummy doesn't obviate what you've done with regards to the false dichotomy since then.
  
• You weren't closing off the possibility of an SOG lynch, or basing it solely on the PP connection (though you've said you were).
  
• You explicitly asked people to critique your reasoning in that post.
  
• Again, making that post then simply doesn't imply that you've never been trying to get a double mislynch on D1's two big wagons.

[*]Iecerint - Scum? I think so. I fucking hope so. I'm boggled a lot if not.

Prepare to be boggled, then.



Hope any town players who've been suckered into attacking me (and, let's face it, there are necessarily several) have thought of what to do when I turn up town. Mafia's already had plenty of time to work it out.

"Whatever will you do when I flip town??" is way scummy.

You don't need to write 1000000 words if your argument is clear in your mind. If it isn't clear, why not?

The greater portion of my long posts are responses to the 8-10 things I have to respond to whenever I check-in, coupled with, you know, actually needing to do something other than answer attacks on occasion. But since I have so much respect for your wisdom, I've taken your advice in this post and ignored most of your garbage. If I ignored it, please cross-supply either ":roll:" or "lol" to it, and it'll pretty accurately convey my views. And hell, this is STILL a mammoth post.

No need to be an ass because people have asked you to fix your terrible prose style. Curse to yourself if you must, but I don't care to hear it.

I think ivan is town. Probably Michel, too, since I don't think he has a scum motive to go to all this trouble AND the rest of you have made it clear that crappier arguments will suffice. Maybe Katy. I'm thinking bad thoughts about the rest of you (SOG, DDD, ekiM). Then again, it should be evident after a few pages of interrogation that I hardly have a neutral perspective.

Why do you think ivan is town? Why do you think each of SOG, DDD, and myself are bad (other than that we suspect you and take issue with your style and arguments)?

ekiM -- Why did you specifically (sarcastically, if not ironically) ask me to make a post reiterating why I find SOG scummy? Why didn't you ask me to do the same for DDD, for example?

Check the context.

Why haven't you responded to my (sincere) request?

I find it odd that you give SOG points for knowing that tracker was town.

I didn't. I gave him points for not pushing the other big wagon when he was potentially under threat. It is possible that he knew tracker was town and wanted to make himself look better (isn't this the kind of reasoning you're endlessly whining about?), but it appears to me more likely that he was genuinely looking for scum.

I find it odd that you need to misrepresent what people say in practically every post. Are you illiterate, incompetent, or duplicitous?

'm taking no action as yet, but I've pretty much made up my mind. I'll wait for more discussion, but as there's been a claim, I don't think there's much more to do. No one's unvoted and I don't think it's likely anyone will, nonetheless, I'll give it the night just in case and give people time for any objections. Otherwise I intend to vote tomorrow.

You should at least wait for Michel to post his full analysis and people to respond a little.

[ekiM]

If you read a post by me (or anyone) and it's vague, you should point this out and ask for clarification. That's perfectly reasonable, and yes if someone is chronically vague in a game it can be a decent scumtell. Getting animated about the use of a punctuation symbol, on the other hand...

Next time someone is using a potential style-based scumtell, I'll be sure to warn them about it. "ekiM, I think your use of ellipsis may be a bit odd. Keep an eye on it; people might think you're scum!"

Maybe you could actually point out where I've been vague and why it is bothersome instead of continuing this utterly bizarre harping on about the use of a piece of punctuation? It's almost like you don't believe what you're saying at all...

You're missing that it's already been refuted.

Not when you posted that, bro.

• A post in the past where you express a weak belief that tracker flipping town makes SOG less scummy doesn't obviate what you've done with regards to the false dichotomy since then.
  
• You weren't closing off the possibility of an SOG lynch, or basing it solely on the PP connection (though you've said you were).
  
• You explicitly asked people to critique your reasoning in that post.
  
• Again, making that post then simply doesn't imply that you've never been trying to get a double mislynch on D1's two big wagons.

1. I posted LOTS of posts in the past where I express the belief that tracker flipping town makes SOG less scummy.

Or are you saying that posts in the past are categorically useless? Also, I'm starting to think you don't know the definition of "dichotomy." It means there are two possibilities. I listed four.

2. That part's true -- I'm happy to report that SOGPP have done plenty of sketchy things other than PP voting for Pablo at a very awkward time.

I find it laughable that you would consider this a net point against me. I also went out my of my way to correct Michel by pointing out that his "solely" qualifier would not be satisfied for this very reason; the only player who said "solely" was Michel.

3. This is true, and it's the best argument against Argument H.

I'd still argue that this venture would have been a very risky venture for Iecscum. I'd also point out that it's certainly pro-town to ask for players to weigh-in on theories like that in general.

4.

What, are you arguing that it's categorically scummy to suspect SOG? That strikes me as bull.

I think Michel's argument was that the manner of attack was the sketchy part -- a vote in the first post of Day 2 and "tunnel-vision" on those two players.

I have since attempted to demonstrate that my behavior is not parsimoniously interpreted that way because 1) I provided evidence that SOG could be partially vindicated by towntrack and 2) if anything, I have DDD tunnelvision.

It's like you're not even trying anymore. Caught scum? I've highlighted the ridiculous misrepresentations in red and the completely irrelevant waffle in yellow. What's left isn't very much.

I wonder if you would be so good as to read and respond to what I've actually said about your 'Argument H': saying at some point on D1 that tracker-town makes SOG less scummy doesn't mean a thing when your point was refuted easily and you then try on D2 to push the line that one of the two of them is probably scum anyway.

Why haven't you responded to my (sincere) request?

I'd just quote an old post, and you've already said that those didn't satisfy you. I also didn't interpret your request to be sincere.

Why are you so utterly unhelpful? You're happy to waffle for PAGES saying the same couple of things over and over again, but I ask you for a few bullet points on why you suspect someone and you won't comply. What to make of that, hmm?

I don't like the delay from MichelSabelheart at all. I find that delaying an inevitable lynch to be a slight scum tell. When a lynch has been determined (as I am considering this one to be as there are three people voting and more than one who claim Iecerint as their top suspect) then extra information is really most helpful to the scum as it can help them determine a night kill that can benefit them by either preparing to set up a mislynch or have a better idea of what to plan for the next day as far as town suspicions and arguments go.

He's said he's writing a full analysis of the game and doesn't have much time during the weekdays. I'm not sure what's problematic here.

[ekiM]

Maybe you could actually point out where I've been vague and why it is bothersome instead of continuing this utterly bizarre harping on about the use of a piece of punctuation?

It's almost like you don't believe what you're saying at all...

Thankfully, I don't have to look very hard because you somewhat amusingly did just what I've referred to right here. What is your point in surmising that I don't believe what I'm saying? Do you think it's scummy? Do you think it's anti-town? Are you just baiting me? Your intent is not transparent.

How strange, in a post about your bitching about my use of ellipsis, I happen to use ellipsis. What to make of it? It's almost like I did it intentionally to mock you for asking a stupid question.

If you really can't understand: asking Ivan if I've used a certain type of punctuation in the past is fucking bizarre. Apparently your real question is "is ekiM's 'vagueness' scummy?". If that's what you're implying, just straight-up say it, quote where I've been vague, say why it troubles you, and ask for explanation. Why are you so incapable of being direct? It's incredibly aggravating.

Just because you describe something as "irrelevant" or "distortion" doesn't make it so. I stand by everything in that post, and I think that your color-by-numbers and vague denunciation just make you look bad.

Oh, I'm shaking, I'm shaking.

If you have a more specific question about something (e.g. "why is X relevant"), I would be happy to answer it.

I have some questions! Where did I say or imply that posts in the past are categorically useless? Do you really not understand that the dichotomy I'm referring to is the idea that one of SOG and tracker must've been scum? Where did I say or imply that suspecting SOG is categorically scummy?

Do you think a chronic pattern of misrepresenting people throughout a game is scummy?

Your color-by-numbers'd post

was

my response to your list about Argument H; don't pretend I didn't respond to it. Your new statement is just as silly. Obviously, when an argument is debunked, it doesn't make much sense to adhere to it anymore. The point of bringing up the Argument was that Iecscum got very lucky that DDD debunked his argument; otherwise, he'd be stuck behind his own argument and would have a harder time abusing that poor townie, SOG, Day 2.

Can you read? Can you comprehend English? To say that it's scummy to push the idea that one or the other of tracker-SOG must be scum after a tracker-town flip DOES NOT REQUIRE us to posit that you were planning all along to do this. THEREFORE quoting something you said ages ago that would slightly undermine that push if it had stood up to scrutiny is IRRELEVANT.

You're happy to waffle for PAGES saying the same couple of things over and over again,

Get it right the first time, and I won't have to repeat it. Keep asking the same question, and you'll get the same answer.

But I ask you for a few bullet points on why you suspect someone and you won't comply. What to make of that, hmm?

You have shown no willingness to read or think critically about my posts. Players who have shown said willingness to engage at some level include Michel, Katy, ivan, and SOG. I would be happy to repost an old quote if they think it would be useful, but as they (with the possible exception of ivan) have presumably read my posts, I doubt that they would find it useful.

What the fuck is wrong with you? I don't have time to read tens of thousands of words of crap to find this. Take TWO MINUTES to write some bullet points summarizing why you suspect SOG. That shouldn't be a challenge. You should have just done it when I asked, instead of dragging it out for DAYS.

Just to be helpful, because eKiM might need this for his analysis, I asked a very similar question of Iecerint and he answered it briefly in 379 at the bottom.

Gosh, someone who's actually trying to help the other players in the game. How refreshing! Post 379 unfortunately he is mostly giving a list of names without explaining why they mean much ("PPragequit, PBPA, asking me to explain things and not really following up on his questions, claimgate, the relative purity of other players") I still want Iece to in his own words list each reason he suspects SOG and say WHY it is scummy, providing post numbers where relevant. He seems to have no trouble spending ages wanking about how I'm not following him properly, but he REFUSES to summarise his thoughts on something for me. It's unacceptable.

[ekiM]

We're now in LYLO---Lynch or Lose. If we don't lynch scum today we lose. Nobody should vote yet, because a townie vote on another townie can be followed by two scum for the win.

I'd like to propose a massclaim. Everyone claims their role and actions if any. What do people think?

[ekiM]

Are both Ivan and DDD inactive right now? :\ I will try and do some analysis, but maybe not until the weekend. I'd really like to do the massclaim before we do any serious discussion, though.

Mod and everyone else: Please note my signature. Out of the country, not expecting to even touch a computer for that week.

If you want me to be replaced, that's fine, but I'd prefer to keep playing.

[ekiM]

I'm a vanilla townie.

Katy?

[ekiM]

Mod: Any chance of a deadline extension today?

Uh, ok. The deadline will be pushed back to July 20th.

[ekiM]

I'm going on vacation in nine hours and still waiting on Brandi to claim...

Brandi please claim and pick the next person to claim ASAP. Day 3 is just this page.

[ekiM]

Hey everybody, sorry for needing to be replaced. I unexpectedly didn't have access when I got back.

Thanks to Kublai Khan for some great modding and flavor. Sorry for all the replacements and not helping on that score.

Well played mafiosos. A consummate performance, I think.

Good game, all.