Newbie #1185 (Game Over!)

Workdawg · Post Post #9 (isolation #0) » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:28 am

This is my first game as IC, though I have 7 newbie games under my belt so far.
Please refer to the following spoiler text for my IC introduction information. Obviously since this is my first game, it will be constantly evolving. If you have any questions not covered in the below, PLEASE feel free to ask, I am here to help!

Spoiler: IC Intro

I have played a game very similar to mafia IRL, but most of my experience is here. 7 games down, you can see my record in my sig.

I'm from the US, GMT-6 right now I think, due to daylight savings time.

If you want to check out all my other games, you can browse my wiki page here: http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Workdawg

Lastly VOTE: syndrome, for having a name that I can't tell if it's inappropriate or not.. <.<

Workdawg · Post Post #23 (isolation #1) » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:00 pm

Bandwagons are essential for many reasons. Putting pressure on a potentially scummy player, providing evidence that might prove useful later, etc.

Others have mentioned that D1 is a rough day as it's pretty much all based on speculation. That's very true. We'll have ZERO factual information to use until D1 ends, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't hunt for scum. It's still very possible for scum to make mistakes and do things that end up making themselves look scummy. If we can catch scum D1, it's a huge advantage to us.

I'm not sure if I have a different definition of "bandwagoning" from the fathom/Tierce, but the way you both seem to be referring to it is simply piling votes onto someone and seeing how they react. While I suppose it might be accurate to call that "bandwagonning", I would advise everyone to have at least some reason behind their vote when they place it. Joining a wagon "just because" is generally pretty scummy. If you see fit to vote someone, you have to be prepared for them to be lynched... so make sure if you aren't ready for that, you make sure the danger of that person being lynched is low. I suppose if we use that assumption, that bandwagonning is done without reason, than discussion would probably be more fruitful. However, the normal course of scumhunting generally involves discussion, that leads to votes, and eventually a bandwagon on whoever seems the most scummy at any given time.

@fathom

- To answer your question about your interactions with Tierce. You're probably right that it's been the most "meaningful" thing to happen so far, but really that's just because it's been the first real interaction between any of us that doesn't involve theory discussion or the random "how much have you played" type stuff. That said, I'm not totally sure what to make of Tierce's post 15. He's obviously poking at fathom for a couple, likely insignificant things, but there is one quote that I'm not really sure what he's talking about...

@Tierce

Can you elaborate on what you mean with the following quote?

Tierce in 15 wrote:And Sampson: IGMEOY, scum-partner who has already spilled the beans to fathom42 before Day 1.

Workdawg · Post Post #24 (isolation #2) » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:01 pm

In post 20, syndromeofadown wrote:Really, until we have more information there are no "tells" and voting is mostly random/arbitrary. Don't take day 1 so seriously. If you want to discuss something, discuss, but I doubt you'll figure out anything very meaningful.

I touched on this above, but I disagree with this overall. D1 is still important and it concerns me that SOAD seems to be trying to stifle conversation because it won't be very meaningful.

Are you trying to discourage conversation so we don't find out you're scum, SOAD?

VOTE: SOAD

Workdawg · Post Post #32 (isolation #3) » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:59 pm

In post 27, Tierce wrote:She, not he, please.

Terribly sorry, I didn't know. There's actually a profile setting for gender (you can see mine below my avatar. Might avoid confusion in the future.

In post 28, syndromeofadown wrote:Workdawg, you realize you voted for me twice? Or was the second vote just for emphasis?

Haha, I forgot who my RVS vote was on. The second can be taken seriously based on the content of that post.

In post 30, fathom42 wrote:Oops, meant to say @ Workdawg in my last post. Sorry if I confused anyone!

Nope, I was confused by Tierce's scumbuddy accusations.
---

Tierce seems town to me, for now.

Workdawg · Post Post #45 (isolation #4) » Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:57 pm

I guess I'll chime in on this, I don't like where it's going at all. Question everything... ask for clarification if you're confused about something. It's true that there might be times where someone doesn't want to reveal their intentions, but in a vast majority of cases, it won't do much harm, IMO. If you're doing something like reaction fishing, that's fine... but then you can simply ignore the question until you've got your reaction. Pretty simple.

Discouraging people from asking for clarification is only going to make it easier for scum to hide their intentions.

Workdawg · Post Post #64 (isolation #5) » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:15 am

Look at that content! A few notes about the SOAD/Shii exchange. First of all, some more theory discussion. You could argue that RVS is over the moment I voted for SOAD a second time. It wasn't a random vote. Secondly, there ARE scumtells D1 and it's silly that SOAD continues to write off D1 as a lost cause. I THINK this is just a miscommunication of sorts. It's true that we will have no absolute proof of scum on D1, but that doesn't mean scum won't act scummy and say thing that can be obvious scumtells. If you see something that seems off or rubs you the wrong way, pursue that because it MIGHT be scum, and the additional pressure of having someone attacking them might make them slip up more. Generally, I disagree with almost everything SOAD is saying. That's NOT a scumtell because it's simply a playstyle issue, but it is something I'm going to call him out on.

SOAD's vote for Shii smells of distancing. Notice how he votes, but then says it's not an attack? He wants to vote for Shii, but he doesn't want people to think he is scummy for doing it. This is scum mentality as they need to vote for someone, but if that person flips town, they will be scrutinized (everyone on the wagon will) and saying "I'm not attacking you" is a good one. (Really it's not, but for some reason people like to do that).

Unfortunately, the rest of this conversation reverted back to junky theory discussion.

Shii in 52 wrote:@ Everyone, please start voting, we'll get nowhere fast here.

I agree, let's hear it people. Pick a person you feel unsure about, tell us why, and lay down a vote. (Note, do NOT lynch anyone yet. If you're vote would lynch, then just say that and don't vote) We need to get everyone involved and voting is a good way to do so.

Workdawg · Post Post #83 (isolation #6) » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:45 pm

In post 67, syndromeofadown wrote:No, I do not see how it is scummy. Strange, yes. Scummy, no.

I agree with this, actually. SOAD being confrontational is not necessarily scummy. I can come across that way when I really find someone to attack.

In post 71, Shiidaji wrote:
In post 64, Workdawg wrote:SOAD's vote for Shii smells of distancing. Notice how he votes, but then says it's not an attack? He wants to vote for Shii, but he doesn't want people to think he is scummy for doing it. This is scum mentality as they need to vote for someone, but if that person flips town, they will be scrutinized (everyone on the wagon will) and saying "I'm not attacking you" is a good one. (Really it's not, but for some reason people like to do that).

Distancing refers to a scum-scum interaction that is an attempt to create disassociation, iirc.

I disagree with Cav here, SOAD's playstyle is quite the opposite of confrontational, in this case at least.

I feel that distancing has a bit more broad definition than simply scum buddy interactions. Typically, distancing can be applied to pretty much any scenario or behavior where the player seems to want to disassociate themselves from, or avoid the blame for something. In this case, I accused SOAD of distancing because he voted for Shii, but seemed like he didn't want to be blamed for it.

In post 75, Tierce wrote:VOTE: inte
There won't be any chillin' in the back. If you're town, we need your contribute. That behavior is as scummy as could be. We don't know
anything at all
about you.

This times 100. Lurking is scummy, providing no content in your few posts is even more scummy. I realize this is your first game, so I'll give you some slack... but as others have said, we need EVERYONE to participate in finding scum. You don't have to be correct about everything you post, but you do need to post your thoughts on what's going on. If you aren't posting, why should we let you live when you could be scum? Your post 81 is actually pretty good. Good insight there, though I think you're definition of OMGUS might be a bit off. OMGUS is "oh my god, you suck" and refers to the scenario where someone votes for another player simply because that player voted for them. fathom isn't "OMGUSing" you. He voted for you for a valid reason.

Workdawg · Post Post #89 (isolation #7) » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:28 pm

LOL, so you have no other input except my record to go on? 89 posts and you don't have even the slightest clue who might be scum?

Workdawg · Post Post #97 (isolation #8) » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:39 am

I agree with pretty much everything Tierce said in 94. She has a lot of good points in there.

I think fathom was referring to SOAD's vote on me (not Sampson) in 91, actually.

An interesting thing about my record. I really only earned one of those scum wins, I feel. In the two most recent games, I don't feel like the win was really earned.

In one, town quicklynched their way into a loss. The entire game was 9 pages long with town hammering themselves D1 and D2, then voting and allowing my scumbuddy and I to quicklynch D3 for a flawless win. It's true, my partner and I did a good job of not getting caught, but really it was the town who lost the game for themselves, not us who won as scum.

In another, it came down to LYLO (lynch scum or lose, for town) and I made a gambit to win and claimed cop. I messed up and was caught dead-to-rights by the real cop. We got into a heated debate and he was getting very upset that the rest of the town didn't see his logic (which was totally accurate). The last town player ended up being replaced out and hammered the real cop out of spite because he was getting belligerent and yelling at everyone. I should have lost that game for sure, and that's why there is a * next to my scum record on my wiki page.

I will be reviewing the thread later today and trying to gather some more thoughts.

Workdawg · Post Post #120 (isolation #9) » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:25 pm

Sorry, I ended up getting tied up in another game all day. The day just ended though, so I'll have time to dedicated to getting fully caught up here tomorrow.

When I first read SOADs post speculating about the setup, I thought he was questioning how the game setup worked. Upon further reading, it looks like he might be speculating about how it has actually been applied to this game. Generally this is bad for town, as speculation like this could potentially give scum additional clues to who the power roles are. I don't think he is scummy for doing it, but I wouldn't talk about it anymore.

Workdawg · Post Post #123 (isolation #10) » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:41 am

Let's see...

Haycorn

- I don't get many scummy vibes from her. I think the case she's presented for her vote on SOAD is reasonable, though maybe a little misguided. Normally scum want to try and coast under the radar, not drawing too much attention to themselves. Haycorn's reason for voting SOAD is because he seemed like he was bickering with Shii and trying to provoke him for no real reason. I can see this argument, but it seems counter productive for a scum player to do. There are a couple things about her ISO that concern me though. The "sorry" immediately after her vote seems a bit off. There's really no reason to apologize for a vote. Even if you have a bad reason for voting, your reason should support the vote. The other thing is the confusion about the wagon. As someone else mentioned, generally anytime people are voting for the same person, it's considered a wagon. This can easily be chalked up to a newbie mistake though.

inte

- It's hard to get a read on him. I get the sense that English isn't his first language due to some strange wording. However, I think he's got some interesting analysis of various posts and I think he's got some potential to be helpful to town because of that; if we can overcome the language barrier. The lurking was pretty scummy, but it's possible that was just a newbie mistake. It's hard to say as I've seen both newbtown and newbscum do that.

@inte

- I like the fact that you are posting now, keep it up. Tell us what you think, it can only help the town!

SOAD

- Something about SOAD is still rubbing me the wrong way. My vote for him was simply a pressure vote and the reason I provided was actually really crappy, but his reaction to it was fine. I'm having trouble grasping his reasoning for being reluctant to scumhunt. Yes, we don't and won't have any facts today. It's very likely that we will lynch a townie today. But the discussions and reactions that are generated by making a case against someone, voting for them, and the eventual lynch will all give us a lot of information to look back on D2. We shouldn't be afraid to scumhunt just because we might lynch a townie today. If no one scumhunts, then there is no point in even having a D1. His vote for me based on my record, and then his "is that ethical" thing... I just don't know about that. He's literally posted no real analysis of anything that I can see. Massive IIOA (information instead of analysis) going on her. This is generally a scumtell. Also,

@SOAD

- I understand the desire to not out your suspect, because the longer you wait, the more potential evidence you can gather, but you really should tell us who it is and why you think they are scummy. Their reaction to being called out as scum will probably give us a lot more information than waiting to see if they slip up any more. In addition, having 8 sets of eyes scrutinizing that persons play is going to be a lot more effective than only 1.

Workdawg · Post Post #146 (isolation #11) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:49 am

Sorry guys, been really busy lately with wrestling starting up and SWTOR beta this weekend. I'll get my ass in gear Monday, V/LA until then.

Workdawg · Post Post #189 (isolation #12) » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:40 am

I am VERY sorry for my recent absence. Holiday combined with SWTOR test weekend = ALL my time was taken up. I know it's bad for the IC to go V/LA for that reason, but it's SWTOR!

I normally don't like to have my vote sitting on no one, and that's really the only reason it's remained on SOAD for so long. I'm going to

UNVOTE

now, but I imagine I'll probably vote again by the end of this post.

Anyway. Here's all the text:

First

BB in 156 wrote: "What does this NOT mean?
- I am town (I could be scum, watch out!)" I loled at this. You may want to reword it.

---snip---

Workdawg is a great player, as scum and town(despite his record not showing it, I can say from experience).

The first part was meant to invoke LOLs. The second, thanks! *immediately narrows eyes and looks for buddying* My shitty town record is a result of too much second guessing myself, and I am really working on that from now on.

BB in 158 wrote:Also, quick question, if you suddenly turned into a DayCop(A cop who can check someone's alignment during the day) who would you check right now and why?

That's a really interesting question... I think probably Tierce. She's posting a lot, and she's leaning town for me right now based on that and the logic in her posts, but when my gut reaction is less sure. IIRC, she's posted some interesting things that have rubbed me the wrong way. I'll have to review her ISO after this post to try and put my finger on exactly what. Getting an exact read (via daycop) on her would make me feel a lot better.

haycorn 159 - Definitely feeling the haycorn scum that people are mentioning. Lots of filler... and then he makes a conscience effort to avoid it. Seems forced to me.

haycorn 162 - I actually rather like the analysis of SOAD here. The comments about SOAD putting himself "above accusation" do seem to ring true to me. I'll have to look into this further. I'm not as convinced as BB about SOAD yet... that might change by the time I'm caught up though.

Tierce 163 - Tierce seems to have had an opposite reaction to 162 here. I don't feel like 162 was out of line. haycorn's analysis of SOAD's playstyle is very relevant to the game and it concerns me that Tierce seems to be trying to brush it off. The comment about writing abilities I do agree with though.

SOAD 176 - Yes. That pretty much sums it up, lol. haycorn does seem to be occupied with self-preservation and not appearing scummy, both scummy behaviors... but both also natural newbie behaviors. The "defend yourself first" part I also generally agree with. I think being scum gives you a lot more incentive to try and defend yourself rather than scumhunt; probably because scumhunting is a futile effort but defending yourself is not as scum. They both kind of come naturally to a scum mindset. In general I would encourage people to scumhunt and let that act as a defense. That's not to say you should ignore questions or cases against you, but getting into a big debate with someone over your scumminess when you are town isn't really helping anyone.

haycorn 183 - That was unexpected. As BB said, if anyone is the JK (meaning haycorn is fakeclaiming), they need to claim now.

Updated reads:

haycorn: Her claim could go towards justifying her desire for self preservation, but at the same time, I find it easy to write that off as a newb tell anyway. Leaning town.
BB: probably town
SOAD: null-maybe town. Hard to say, I'd like to hear why BB is so sure about him.
Tierce: null
inte: my intial reaction to his latest posts was to wonder if the same person is posting, lol. Leaning town
Shii: null

fathom, sampson: MOAR POSTS