Newbie 1252: The Other Game Town Wins!

[Majiffy]

Hi. I'm your token game

asshole

IC

asshole IC. Feel free to ask me questions about whatever, I'll do my best to answer them.
Also, unfortunately I'm in the middle of a hectic weekend, but I'll be back to posting actively sometime Monday night (appx 48-50 hrs from this post). I may also be posting later tonight.

I'm not much a fan of RVS (random voting stage), although feel free to do so if you're comfortable with it. I would like every player in the game to answer the following questions:

What experience (if any) do you have playing mafia?
Do you prefer playing town, or playing scum (and if you have no experience, do you think you'd prefer trying to hide amongst other players or try to find the hiding players?)

Danke, talk to you all soon.

[Majiffy]

Sorry, said Monday night when I meant Sunday night, so I'll be on later this evening when I get out of the studio.

Addressing some questions...

Okay, I'll take you up on that... why would someone self-vote as the first thing they said in the thread, and why shouldn't the rest of us take them (yeah, him, her, whatever pronoun they prefer) up on their offer?

Never seen it done before (at least in RVS) but he's an SE and I assume he has his reasons for it... I suppose you could, if you want.

A self-vote can also be used by scum when they know they're going to be lynched to deny town of one information-filled vote on the wagon, potentially to exclude a town player, a scum buddy, or just to throw off VCA (vote-count analysis)

Why does this matter? What could you possibly learn about a player from this question that would further your knowledge of their alignment?

It has less to do with alignment and more to do with how much explaining I'll have to do.

[Majiffy]

This game really needs some more activity. For anyone who hasn't posted, get on here and post!

[Majiffy]

Sigh. In the future, try to let reaction tests run until everyone has reacted to them...

Also, really unique username. Also I feel your personality will be pleasurable in this game. Welcome to MS!

[Majiffy]

Fuji - votes are one of the most powerful assets a townie has. Don't be afraid to use them, even in the early game.

Hossaim - Appearing pro-town isn't always indicative of being town. There are a lot of players that look pro-town even as scum. It is a nice place to start, but look more for

contradictions in what people do/say

, and anything that may appear to be counter-productive such as

trying to slow/halt conversation

,

"muddying the waters"

(calling a lot of players scum or scummy without really giving reasons, or trying to rustle up the feathers of players by being intentionally obtuse or demeaning),

dismantling wagons that they don't think are on townies

,

wagon hopping / voting erratically

, etc.

They're not always tried-and-true, but they're usually good signs to keep an eye open for. But with anything, try to keep in mind

motive

. If it seems more likely to be a town-motivated action/statement than a scum-motivated action/statement, then it may not be worth following up on. Conversely, if it seems scum-motivated, chase it.

[Majiffy]

Well said. First time ICing?

Yeeeeep.

[Majiffy]

Yay!

A wild Thor has entered!

A wild Thor appeared!

Well fuck

you

, then.

YOU AND I ARE DOING IT WRONG!?!?!
Majiffy also stands a decent chance of being scum, though it *might* just be new IC jitters.
Meh, he can be fourth candidate to lynch after we run the train on Robo, RXK, and that slot that hasn't shown up yet (the case on that one will be 'lurking' If you say it often enough suddenly a player becomes scummy and you can lynch them.)

Yeah I'm trying to be nicer this game

Though actually Post 32 is why Hoss is obv. town.

Really? I don't see it. Certainly not a scummy post in any way but I don't think it's a real town tell.

You see, the thing is, when you trick or pressure people. You don't tell them you are pressuring them. Notice how I didn't even care you voted me.

lol'd.

[Majiffy]

I'm sorry, Thor, did you essentially just equate someone as town because they had sound logic?


This is not the Thor you are looking for.

[Majiffy]

I'm not trying to get him lynched, I just think you're being a bit quick on the obvtown reads. This is not the Thor I know and love.

Which means you're probably town, because haven't you been scum in every game I've played with you?

[Majiffy]

More an inquiry than a problem. I just don't see what you see, I suppose.

[Majiffy]

[Majiffy]

That'll do 'er.

VOTE: RXK

Thanks Thor.

p-edit: No, no way to fix them. You could

bold

a request to the mod and see if they'll fix it for you, however.

[Majiffy]

Yep. I'll elaborate later.

[Majiffy]

Robo wagon won't be reached any time soon. And if it is, it'll be quite suspect. I need to see more from you and Iknal, as well as ANYTHING from zabriel. Or at least a replacement of his slot.

[Majiffy]

Also, any comments on the other happenings of the game since your last post, 194?

[Majiffy]

Thor is qualified as an IC as well, yes. In fact, he was qualified as an IC before I even came to this site.

[Majiffy]

>Making Ravioli
>Eating Ravioli
>Posting.

I'll be on to read/answer questions/etc. shortly.

[Majiffy]

...This is WIFOM. (IC can elaborate on that) ... if Majiffy leaves for quite sometime then me or Thor or Iknal will be around.

I'm typically on in the evenings EST just for everyone's information.

OK, so what do you use as an alternative to "random" votes to get enough information to act on?

Reaction tests, agitating other players (which I unfortunately have to refrain from in this game given my title) and mafia-related questions such as the two I posed at the start of the game. I tend to take a while to solidify my reads.

I don't see a problem with this, since self-votes are so obviously a reaction test. So exposing it as such really has no effect at all.

This is a newbie game. Some players may not even know what a reaction test is, and thus valuable information can be gained from even something as like a self-vote.

@Thor

; when did you create the RXK wagon? You just coaxed me out of my shell

Increasingly annoyed by Robo's insistence on playing anti-town, given his SE title.

[Majiffy]

Oh forgot about the WIFOM bit: basically it's trying to out-think your opponent who is also trying to out-think you whom you are trying to out-think, ad infinitum.

This video is a fine example.

[Majiffy]

@Majiffy - just tell me who first mentioned him as scum and who ganered the reactions you voted him on. I'll credit that person with creating the wagon.
You could also rgue who has dome *more* than me for that wagon and I'll maybe credit that person instead. Whichever.

My vote started the laaaaayndsliiiiiide yeeeeeah.

Alright, fine. You win this one, Thor.

Also, what the heck, anti-town? How?

You're voting against your wincon, which is anti-game regardless of alignment.
You're not participating meaningfully in scumhunting, which hurts town if you are town.
You're not attempting to get votes off you, which hurts town if you are town.
Shall I continue?

[Majiffy]

This just in: my asian roomate is playing a racing game. He keeps crashing into walls. My life is complete.

[Majiffy]

1. Voting yourself is not against your wincon.
2. Just because you don't understand my methods doesn't mean they aren't working.
3. Why, do you believe nothing could be gained form my death? Do you think that we are more likely to hit scum if we didn't vote me?
4. Yes. For you haven't posted any reasoning on why what I'm doing is anti-town. Maybe my methods are misleading but not anti-town.

1. Unless your wincon is fool (which isn't in this setup), or you're scum trying to deny VCA information in the event of your inevitable lynch, then yes. It is.
2. Your methods, if town, are only yielding more votes on you. If you're town and getting lynched, that's not helping town.
3. See above. And if you're town, then yes.
4. See above. My reasoning is quite sufficient to provide evidence of anti-town behavior.

[Majiffy]

On review of Robo, I'd say I am very against his lynch today. While his play has been rather opaquely anti-town (that is, pro-town but rather obscured by his [presumably newfound] love of being cryptic and trying of new techniques) I'm fairly confident he's town. His play, from a town perspective, clearly shows his posts are geared towards himself understanding other players' alignments, even though he hasn't shared them yet. I'd like anyone who is sheeping Thor just to sheep Thor because he's Thor (yes, I know it's attractive) to instead move to the RXK wagon with me.

[Majiffy]

You should

probably

check nhammen's post wherein he voted you. He mentioned one of the main points. The rest will come later.

[Majiffy]

@194

, no, you've been giving some good content. I'd just like to see more posts, as long as you can keep up the content-to-post ratio. Frankly, you're one of the townier players this game, thus far.

I'm on an iPod touch right now, quoting posts is a bitch but if I'm remembering my post correctly I was trying to understand where Thor was coming from. I think that was me saying I should have been more clear in my post to Fujiko over voting conservatism.

I still don't really get it. I agree with what he said about this game not having information. There isn't much to go on.

Why don't you properly try to explain your train of thought during that entire post for me next time you're on a more user-friendly interface?

[Majiffy]

What experience (if any) do you have playing mafia?

Why does this matter? What could you possibly learn about a player from this question that would further your knowledge of their alignment?

Showing interest in my mindstate, thus, trying to allege my alignment.

Robocopter, It's called getting discussion going. If you want to random vote it's generally a bad idea to vote yourself.

Pfft, are you saying that random doesn't include me? Random = any person in the game. I believe I'm part of that group.

Invitation for further communication and thus information

If its scummy then why don't you vote me? Its your only lead, then its all you got to stand on at this point in time.

Invitation to offer up public information, thus beneficial to town. Also a good way to usher in reactions from both his own self vote and the vote of Hossaim.

All I read here is "scared that the vote will attract attention".

Vote me, bro.

You call me scummish, live up to your word.

Same as the above, different player.

This is just the first four posts after his self-vote. I can outline the rest if you'd like. Robo is town.

[Majiffy]

1. You take this as attempting to analyze you - I take it as an attack on you and trying to cut down your scumhunting efforts (though, honestly, I agree with it)
2. There's an "invitation" there? Um...I feel like you're stretching already.
3. Eh, I'll agree there is a theretical gain to town if he gets people to vote. That said, it's not actually a proactive or productive attempt at that.
You show him attacking someone, a null post, and two bully posts where the arguable "town" energy is that he wants votes (and also, votes that he has bullied onto himself because...that will help...town?)
Meh. You really have a strong read off that? It makes me suspect you more, not him less. What am I missing here?

1) Pray tell, how do you see that as an attack rather than a mere question of motive/line-of-thinking?
2) Possible. That being said, there are many more posts to be quoted that really back that up.
3+4) Again, you have to think he's been playing this game as reactionary, and he's only a 2-game player so far. He's attempting to get reactions off a test he doesn't quite understand yet, IMO.

Anyway, I'm most interested in why you think he's been attacking me. I read your subsequent vote but I just don't see the scum motivation there.

[Majiffy]

*EBWOP (edited by way of posting) ... "your subsequent post ..."

[Majiffy]

Game mechanics/norms/etc question: if someone is at L-1, are they typically given a chance to react before someone places the final vote?

Yes. When someone is at L-1, it is customary (also HIGHLY expected) that the person who intends to hammer states intent and waits for a claim.

Question: Does anybody actually see what the point is behind the Robo Wagon? Or is this an actual wagon?

I think it started as a pressure wagon and has become a stagnant apathywagon.

How do you see it as a question?

Perhaps the question marks.

Look, I use that *exact wording all the bloody time*. I mean it as an attack on the method and my hope is to destroy and quash that method of posting. I actually don't care about their inner thoughts except that I hope they'll express them and then realize there is no information gained and thus stop doing the derp RQS stuff.
Did he follow up on your explanation? Did he take your explanation and apply it in any way to his reads? Did he respond to your explanation with his explanation of why he disagreed?
Or did he just say that what you're doing doesn't help town/scumhunting?

There wasn't anything to follow up on after my response. It was pretty clear-cut.

Why are you making such a big stink about this? Do you really feel he is scum that vehemently?

Invitation to discussion? Who has he had good discussion with thus far? He's deflected and mocked, he hasn't had discussion though.

An invitation isn't always answered. Next.

Robo is not a 2 game player, so...whut?

Thats the only title I'm allowed. Once you play 2 you are automatically SE.

^ Threw me off. Wording sounds like he's only played 2 games.

You know your mod is Asian -____-

Look at that! How are you at driving games?

VOTE: Hossaim
Let's see where this takes us.

[Majiffy]

Wait how did you start on this post before 169 when you quoted 169 in it?

[Majiffy]

I'll also note that not everything ended with a question mark is a true invitation to discussion.

And I'll note that my comment about the question mark was addressed to "how do you see it as a question?" and not anything about invitation to discussion, which I addressed separately.

I'm making a stink about this because I *do* think he's scummy and the level of your defense intrigues me and I want to understand what you're seeing that I'm not. You seem to have issues with the attack on the logic though insomuch as you don't have a lot of defenses to it - you think I'm reading that wrong?

I don't know what you're asking about here.

Can you show me any post where he drew reactions from his reaction test? That would shut me up pretty well methinks, y'know, by showing he got reactions and then applied them as tells to others, thus proving he was doing the reaction test with a town intent.

No, he hasn't, but lack of evidence is not evidence of the contrary. We've already seen Robo is playing intentionally vague/cryptic/obtuse, so his not outing of any real semblance of reads isn't out of character. I think he's playing more VI than scum though.

[Majiffy]

So you think he's town because he's playing so badly?
How does that work? (and, for the record, just because you're playing obtuse doesn't mean I'm getting town vibes from you - natch)

I don't see scum motivation for the

kind

of badly he's playing, no. Hence the town read.

his vote on me is based off of my response to....

a Thor post

.

Previous to this is unimportant. You should still note that my vote on you is based on your post. Thor just coaxed it out of you. It could have gone either way, and you went the scummier way.

At the very least Majiffy is screwing the town over with wagonriding instead of actively trying to build cases and gather information for the town to build on.

Like the most you've done is slapfight with Thor over Robocopter.

Do something.

You don't think my actions are doing something? Pray tell, which ones, specifically?

[Majiffy]

Stupid town trying out a new technique and being incredibly unsuccessful with it. Unfortunately, also too stubborn to give up the ghost.

[Majiffy]

Look at the attention it drew. He's been here since 2009, and played a plethora of games. I'm sure as scum he would know it's a bad idea.

[Majiffy]

Robo I want reads (and subsequent references to posts to support those reads) on every player of the game in your next post.

[Majiffy]

Argh, out of time... I'll be back tonight to post.

[Majiffy]

Not happy with Robo or his 'reads'. Or his reason for not doing as I asked.

I'll elaborate more later on. Robo, if you'd like to change my opinion of you by then, feel free to do as I asked.

[Majiffy]

Umm, somethings wrong with that votecount regarding votes on me.

You're right. It says two people are voting you. Let me make that accurate.

UNVOTE: Hossaim
VOTE: Robo

Anti-town behavior, no sign of ever changing your ways or attempting to scumhunt, and then you post

this

bullshit?

Robo, I want reads. Robo, I want explanations. Robo, order the pizza. Robo, take out the trash. Robo, wear some pants.

I'll have you know that you'll only get half of what you want. Giving a full set of reads with total evidence gives scum stuff to coast on. Which i will not do. I will give you my reads though.

Pfft.

Here.

194 - Null-Town
Fujiko - Null-Town
Thor665 - Null
nhammen - Town
RXK - Null
TheHossaim - Scum
Iknal - Null
Robo - Sexy
Majiffy - Town

As you can see I'm missing a scumread.

That scum read was RXK, but hes looking better now. Still a few problems but he sifted into null range for me. I'll get a new partner for Hoss.

The reason I asked for evidence is to suffice that you didn't pull it out of your ass, and that your reaction test was actually a reaction test, and that you garnered reads out of them. Needless to say, this looks like your entire play this game has been complete fuck-all, and these reads are ludicrous; Two town reads, one scum read, and the rest essentially null? (And no, null-town does not qualify as a non-null read)

Furthermore, bolded. Where does it say...

anywhere

that you need to have two scum reads on page 9 of a game?
Let me answer that for you:

nowhere

.

You reek to high heaven, and even if you're town, you're better off lynched.

[Majiffy]

You give scum information on who to nightkill, and you give scum information on who they should be attacking.

Scum that aren't up their own ass can figure this out themselves.

You are willing to lynch town?

D1 with a useless SE when I'm likely to be NK'ed? Yes.

And not scumhunting? Have you even looked at my Hossaim case?

Hossaim case speaks for itself. You didn't need to make it.

Been upgrading and customizing my PC for the past few days, now runs a windows based Linux VOS. Anyway, my thoughts.

[flip flop flip flop flip flop flip flip]

I am therefore going to

Vote: Robocopter87

You're scum. Thanks for the information I needed.

UNVOTE: Robo
VOTE: The Hossaim

This is today's lynch, kiddos. Click the link, read the post, and memorize why he's scum; no stance taken, jumps on an easy wagon.

This is easily noticed, intelligently made scum maneuver.

@Thor
I don't like how maffi just slid onto my bandwagon for no apparent reason, just to "see where it goes". But there isn't anything else other than that from him that's been scummy so ill let it slip.

Cute appeal to another experienced player, rather than to the whole town.

This is another classic scum-slip in newbie games

(note: only in newbie games, I don't have the experience to classify this as a game-wide scumtell for more experienced players)

Also:

Robo is still town.

That being said.... Robo, fucking improve your play,

ffs.

[Majiffy]

Ummm... Thor asked him a question, and he answered...

Ah didn't see the question. Regardless, the other point still stands.

and alive in 7 ongoing games

Ouch!

Says who?

Says anyone with a fucking brain? The sentence is kind of self-explanatory.

Useless? Maybe in the beginning. I'm totally fine now.

We'll see. Note, I'm not voting you.

BS. You would've yelled at me for not making it.

Probably. But that's not a point in your favor as "scumhunting".

Still town? You unvoted me in the same post as this sentence. You accuse Hossaim of flipflopping and then you turn right around and do it yourself.

My play is fine.

Gee, I unvoted you in the same post that I called you town in? Wow, why does that not make any sense? Oh wait, it makes perfect sense.

If I didn't find Hossaim's wagon to be better then my vote would have just changed to you.

Probably because you're a dolt.

[Majiffy]

Let me know If I made an error

You're missing Thor and Rach on there.

[Majiffy]

I've never seen anyone who honestly believed that posting full reads early game when a person is almost dead think its beneficial at all. My reasons for not giving you full sets is sound. You are being super stubborn.

If you're town, any kind of way you can help other players determine your alignment (like, for example, showing that you're actually

doing something

) is beneficial to town. I'm not being stubborn, you're being a dolt.

I hunted for scum. I voted a scummy person. THAT PERSON IS NOW ALMOST DEAD AND

YOU ARE ON THE WAGON

.

I scumhunted just fine.

No, but whatever. Keep thinking that way if you want. You're VI from here on out AFAIC.

Still

town. You were voting me, which means you thought me to be scum. Then you unvoted me and said I was still town. You didn't think I was still town, you had just been voting me.

Vote =/= Think They're Scum

How are you an SE?

This is just wrong. You just attacked me. Not my play. (There is a term for this, I just don't remember it.)

It's called an ad hom. And it's not an ad hom, btw, because I'm not discrediting your argument by saying it's because you're a dolt. I'm just calling you a dolt. Because you are one.

Dude, if you are mad, then don't post. Go walk or something.

I'mnotevenmad.jpg

Don't attack players personally, you are the IC. And as the IC you just made a terrible example to your newer players. Explain your opinions in a more logical way. Straight yelling won't accomplish anything.

Though I feel you just are having a bad day, this quote still is extremely scummy. You just blew your top at a minor accusation. Why such a huge reaction?

Blew my top? What?

Fucking VI.

[Majiffy]

I clearly presented a case on Hossaim. I showed my reads on other players. Because I didn't go super in depth doesn't make me scum or a dolt. (Whatever that means.)

Scumhunting implies more than one scum read, thanks.

You're a dolt for other reasons.

Really? Thats your argument?

This is me ending a conversation with a brick wall, is what it is.

What? Are you drunk? Whats your deal? You seem to be making incredibly irrational decisions.

Nice deflection? You realize votes can be used for more than just lynching, right?

As long as you play 2 games on this site you are an SE. Regardless of play. You know this, why would you even ask?

I just can't wrap my mind around how bad you are after 2+ games. (Side note: and with over 20, talk about terribad)

You are responding to my arguments by calling me a dolt. You aren't even making good points anymore, you are just calling me stupid.

No, I'm not responding to your arguments because you

are

a dolt. There's a fine line, you should get some reading comprehension.

You just asked how I thought you blew your top and swore in the same response.

I want to vote you for this mess, but I can't help but feel its just too ridiculous for him to be honestly responding.

Seriously man, you are blowing your IC ideals right out the window.

Swearing =/= being upset. I rather enjoy the aesthetics of several cusswords.

You want to vote me because I disagree with you? Typical terribad VI behavior.

Where the hell did everyone else go in this game?

[Majiffy]

I can see how scum would find something like that useful, actually. Also, does everyone usually have a read on everyone at this point? I have reads on some but not others.

We have a ton of experienced players in this game; if the scum is experienced, they'll know which players are the most pro-town/which players people read as town and kill them anyway. If the scum is noob, they'll kill the experienced players. This isn't an exact science, but games tend to follow that trend. I'm more interested in being able to determine Robo's alignment and how helpful he's really willing to be with town by offering his reads and reasonings why (information is

the

biggest asset town gains as time progresses).

No it doesn't. Scumhunting is the process of finding scum. There isn't anything regarding the amount you are attempting to catch at once. The actual possibility of me nailing both scum on Day One is ridiculous(Though I have done it. However it was total luck.)

You can just stop saying I'm a dolt now.

Scumhunting also includes removing town-like players from the list of possible scumspects. You're giving me dumb answers, and you're either a dolt or you're intentionally giving me dumb answers. So which is it; are you being intentionally obtuse and anti-town, or are you a dolt?

Answer carefully.

No its not, its you not knowing how to respond and reverting to being a total jerk.

k

Nice deflection?

You realize votes can be used for more than just lynching, right?

Well obviously

, but if you are voting someone, it means

you think they are scum

.

You haven't even described how I am bad.
You have started to just use the same argument over and over.
That argument being, "You are a dolt".

No, I started calling you a dolt because of reasons I gave earlier. But thanks for proving your doltness by continuing to be a dolt.

And now you are going to refuse to respond to my arguments.
And you are calling me the VI.

Yes. If this game had a vig, I would be

begging

for a bullet for you.

So you are doing all this conversation with a clear head? Then you got your gift, I found my second scumread.

No, I want to vote you because you went from a logical, townie motivated player to an irrational uncooperative jerk. Which is very anti town.

And now you are asking where everybody went. Whats the matter? Can't handle this conversation?

Funny, you started an irrational, uncooperative dumbfuck. And even more anti-town. Why don't you advocate your own lynch?

And no, because I want an active game.

Don't you?

[Majiffy]

More anti-town by the second? He's been anti-town since his first post. Doesn't make him any less of a townie, though. It's called a VI.

And I agree, 194 is shining town, just not as active as I'd like.

[Majiffy]

Yes he is. You're just too Thor'ed up to see it. I'll explain when I'm sober.

[Majiffy]

Honestly I wouldn't care about tunneling

TheHossaim

(4) [L-1!!!] - Robocopter87, RXK, Fujiko,

Majiffy

k.

Also, I got slapped on the wrist so I have to be nice again. So, in accordance to such, I will stop responding to Robo.

[Majiffy]

Oh forgot about this tab.

I'll explain when I'm sober.

So _that's_ how the experienced players deal with this game

Yeah you should see a game with me and Tierce together. It's a drunkfest

[Majiffy]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4127821
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4130924
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4133303
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p4137770 (haha 194 had post 194)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4146165

Read these posts and tell me you still think he's scum, Thor. Other than low activity I really don't see why you're calling him scum.

[Majiffy]

Reads aside from my vote:

Fujiko

has a chance of flipping scum.

Thor665

is just as unreadable to me as always. I don't think I'll ever be able to get a read on him because he always looks town to me.

Iknal

read maybe town (three posts).

Rach

hasn't posted enough (one post) to solidify anything.

The rest are town.

[Majiffy]

(Seriously, who says that anymore?:P)

Who said they wanted him lynched? No one. But I don't want him lynched anyway.

On the Thor note, if you clearly would go to the link in his sig labeled, "Thor Strategy Guide". It is the same exact thing that I would say here. Also, don't speak about that game. Its ongoing. Just read the paragraph.

1) I'm 23 going on 24. You're 6 years younger than me, leave me with my own damned lingo
2) Thor is voting him. Or was, can't remember. I don't pay attention much to Thor till he hits lylo since I can't read him.
3) Eh? Was I speaking of an ongoing game?

@Thor

: It's the tone in which he says it, and the nature of his narrative. Screams town to me. I'll be surprised if 194 ever flips scum.

[Majiffy]

Essentially gut, but with a blend of his line of thinking. I'm not seeing scum there, I'm sorry. And as long as both of us are alive, I will fight you tooth and nail over 194's lynch.

[Majiffy]

inb4 WIFOM fyi.

[Majiffy]

He seems legitimately busy and Robo is town for pretty much fucking obvious reasons.

p-edit...

1) Why did you even respond to this? This is completely extra-threadacular (or whatever you would call fluff)
2) You mean that

one vote

? Yeah, definitely a lynch option.
3) How does this respond at all to my question?

[Majiffy]

Also, your defense of my attacks on 194's "town" posts is to say 194 seems busy...is that even a defense? That might explain the lurk, but I never even called the lurk scummy so...does not answer my accusations for me.

Erm.

What line of thinking? He hates lurkers (even though he is one) and is sure Robo is obv. town for reasons to be explained later.

The only things you bring up here is "hating lurkers even though he is one" and calling Robo obv. town which is a read I completely agree with... So... I don't see your case.

[Majiffy]

Yeah I'm happy with this lynch. Claim please, Hossaim.

[Majiffy]

Thor

- It is mostly gut. But it's a really

strong

gut. Also, we're only 12 pages in and on d1, you should know by now that my reads really start to solidify a lot once we get some flips and some more pages of info.

[Majiffy]

Majiffy, could you explain this?

You're reading the tone incorrectly. "... more than one scum read"

was talking about his reads comprised ONLY of one read, a scum read. "... 2 scum reads"

is in reference to (I think?) Robo saying that his 'second scum read slot' was currently empty. Paraphrasing, but something stupid like that.

And 194 hasn't figured out how to vote yet

Lol'd.

[Majiffy]

Lol. I know how to vote. You actually base part of your accusation over me on "he bandwagoned RXK and then jumped out of the wagon". As far as I know, I need to have a vote in order to bandwagon.

Not necessarily. Voicing your support for a wagon is just as much wagoning as voting, even if you aren't part of the lynching mob. In fact, it could even be seen as a scum tell by avoiding a lynch on a townie while appearing like you support it.

You should vote Robo because

in general his posts have been Anti-town

, and a little all over the place. I have explainedd this previously, im not repeating myself.

80% of you're posts have been town,

20% of you're posts have been scummy.

20% of posts begin scummy is too high a percentage.

Last I checked, "in general" implies a majority. 20% does not a majority make.

I can say that the you buddied to Laura. But if I cannot show where you buddied to Laura then you didn't buddy to Laura.

Not logically sound but could be if you did a little rewording.

[Majiffy]

Do I really have to go through you're posts and pick out witch ones are anit-town or scummy?

God this people ask a lot.

It's called making a case.

Also, in the future, try just doing links if you're going to post a thousand quotes. This is going to be a cunt to read.

Read it all. That case sucked.

[Majiffy]

what's your read on Hoss now that he did that and what's your take on Robo being so pedantic about the accusation?

Bad case doesn't change a scum read. Hoss is still scum.
Robo being pedantic is just typical dolt being dolt. He's still town IMO.

And as far as 194 is concerned, he's staying town until I get heartburn and my gut is effectively cut from the equation.

[Majiffy]

I just think you're wrong, and I haven't seen any real reasons for my reads to change.

[Majiffy]

Robo and Hoss are acting exactly as they would given my reads.
194's "dodge" was probably less intentional than you prescribe it to be; I had just quoted that bit about not knowing how to vote in the post directly prior. 194 probably came on, saw that, and posted.

As for your "case that needed responding to", these are the only things I can discern were really brought up;

You defined 'active' lurking, which is a different thing, and which you are not doing. Still, your quick response to my attack and your over-sensitivity about the lurking word even when I didn't call it scummy by itself just goes to show that, yes, you are lurking, and that you are worried of having that term stick to you.

Second, I actually suspect the more likely pairing is 194scum and Robotown.
Third, Thank you for letting me know you'd distance from a buddy - so...RXK then? It might explain your odd vote pattern there.

The first, yes, could use a response. The second... ok?

I'm really not seeing your case whatsoever.

[Majiffy]

Her response (n your mind) was not to read the thread, or to act kinda goldfish like, and only really respond to things you quoted.

Even on her response to things you quoted - do you see any meat there, or do you agree it can be taken as an active lurk style post?

Not if he only came on quickly to check the thread, which the post had the feel of. Seeing my post as the last one on the thread, and only quickly going through, makes sense he'd respond to something quick/easy and save the meat for when he has more time.

In fact, how Maffijy has been supporting me is a bit uncomfortable.

Pray tell why someone supporting a town read against an attack the person doesn't see as very strong should make the town read feel uncomfortable.

Alright, I'm back. Remember when nu metal was still a thing? I found a bunch of CDs from like 2003, my taste in music was awful.

You take that back! Many good bands came out of the numetal phase.

From a town perspective: this makes no sense.

No one right now is confirmed town (well, except me ), but let's say both you and Robocopter are both town and that mafia have decided to NK you after you have lynched Robocopter for playing stupidly.

Robocopter flips town: Town is now -1 player.
You get NKed and flip town: Town is now -2 players and go into day two with 5 players left.

If you think a guy is town, don't even entertain the thought of lynching him for poor play. Ignore him, consider him a wasted slot. Make fun of him for all I care, but willingly lynching him to put the town at a numerical disadvantage this early, or at any point in the game, is pretty much as anti-town as any VI can possibly be.

Not if he's so anti-town he's going to get lynched later in the game. Use the MLs while you have them, methinks. What if scum pushes him for a lynch at lylo and some newbie hammers because "ehh he's sucked all game"?

Then

we're fucked.

hello officer this is dog i have contradiction on line 2

Ok, you're dumb-or-scum. Gotcha.

Thor, what was your read on RXK?

Also, cute lining-up-of-lynches in your next post, RXK. I'm actually starting to think you'd be a better lynch than Hossaim at the moment.

Thor is well Thor.

Ain't that the damned truth. Are you ever able to read him? Because I sure can't.

Also,

Thor: Do you think Robo's coppin' our DGAF, Fuck All Yall Niggas attitude?

[Majiffy]

I'm curious as to why no one hammered Hossaim with a week at L-1.

[Majiffy]

Why, what do you think the reason was?

Scum couldn't or wouldn't hammer,

either

because

they didn't want to bus or

were afraid of being the hammer.

Hoss is town. And unfortunately likely to die.

UNVOTE: The Hossaim
VOTE: RXK

That's L-1.

Also, Thor I'd like to hear why you think I'm a viable lynch.

[Majiffy]

I'm sorry, you want myself and Robo lynched but you hammer RXK? You realize there's only two scum, right?

[Majiffy]

You really aught to have more of a case than they pushed for my lynch if you intend to lynch either of us. OMGUS does not a sound case make.

[Majiffy]

It's called twilight. In most games, players are allowed to continue communicating in-thread, although some mods do make rules stating that once the hammer is posted, players will receive strikes for posting any more until the next day phase.

I'm fairly certain no newbie games have that rule, however. I've only experienced it once, and that's in a large theme game.

[Majiffy]

I'm leaning heavily towards Majiffy and Rach as scum at this point, but the fact that Hoss was bringing up the WIFOM possibility before night has me a little uneasy. Not enough that I would consider lynching Hoss when the other two are more scummy. In fact, I will do what I should have done yesterday when Majiffy was defending Robo and
VOTE: Majiffy

I'm sorry, what? Thor wasn't voicing me as

the

lynch. Thor died. Robo hasn't flipped. And my defense of Robo is what you're going to push me on? You can rightly fuck the hell off, sir.

Also, Thor I miss you bb <3 We'll play again soon, promise.

I'll sober up and do some analysis. Thor death isn't too surprising; shows scum is newb and probably afraid of aggressive, pro-town players. Thus we're looking for lurkers and semi-scum newbs.

[Majiffy]

Depends. Outside of newbie games, aggressive players such as myself and Thor are often considered unreadable or anti-town, mostly due to our disagreeableness. Because of this, we make easy lynch candidates. The "pro-town" is debatable. Personally, I didn't see much town motivation in Thor's play, mostly because I consider him unreadable; as we have similar playstyles, I assume he felt the same of me. We tend to play the same as town or scum and thus are a wildcard and either incredibly invaluable or incredibly dangerous, depending on how the other players read us, and our alignments.

[Majiffy]

Good question.

Well, TheHossaim didn't work out, so...

Vote: Majiffy

Really? If it weren't so early on the wagon this would be incredibly scummy.

OK, where is everyone?

That's a damned good question. Also, with Thor gone, we can't have our late-night/early morning back-and-forths.

This game is definitely too heavily plagued with inactivity, though.

V/LA (More LA than V) til July 21 but I will post as much as I can. I should have done this sooner with all that is going on.

[Majiffy]

Rach when you get time I'd like to see you gather some updated reads and place a vote since you'll be away for a bit.

[Majiffy]

Nope... Too much wifom in the "why didn't they kill me" bit. Hoss is still a good lynch for the day.

[Majiffy]

Easily; look at his behavior. He's lynch material and you know it.

[Majiffy]

Claims don't mean anything. Especially a still-living Doctor claim. I'm not seeing experienced scum here, so they probably didn't leave him alive for WIFOM reasons; newbscum kills off PRs and experienced players first.

RXK

(5) [LYNCH!] -

Thor665

,

Robocopter87

, Fujiko,

Majiffy

, TheHossaim
TheHossaim (1) [L-4] -

RXK

Rachmarie (1) [L-4] -

194

Not Voting: RachMarie,

nhammen

Colored to fit my reads. I'm fairly positive At least one scum was on the wagon, if not both. Honestly I think by tomorrow's flip I'll have this in the bag if not by the end of the day. Hossaim is

the

lynch today, and my quick VCA confirms.

VOTE: TheHossaim

State intent before any hammer please. We don't want a repeat of yesterday.

[Majiffy]

However if you want to keep Hoss alive for the (IMO incredibly unlikely) chance he is legit scum, I will support a Rach or Fuj lynch. I would, however, have to see some exceptional evidence to support it aside from my POE.

[Majiffy]

EBWOP *legit town

[Majiffy]

Also if we mislynch today, mass claim is tomorrow.

[Majiffy]

No... Hoss hammer wasn't jitters. PRs don't get lynched d1, regardless of if their claim is legit or not. You played on EM, right? I feel like you should know that, but maybe I'm mistaking you for someone else.

As far as your activity, I'd (and everyone else) would like it

if you give ANY ideas on ANYTHING that has gone on. If you have an idea, positive or negative, please share
Bolded goes to all newbies.

[Majiffy]

WIFOM is a game I don't really fuck around with much; when I find someone scummy, I find them scummy, unless I find latter town motivation for their actions.

I'm assuming lack of exp. scum based on the Thor kill (the most experienced player in the game) and lack of PR Claim kill. I expect myself or the doc claim to die next (whom of which, I very much believe is scum)

[Majiffy]

Basically, exp scum would have gone for someone such as yourself or Robo; the townies that are considered 'town' by the majority. Inexperienced scum shows their newbness by going by the more experienced and well-versed players first. Before we get a hammer, I need to analyze Thor's and my own preferences for lynch and see if we disagree/agree/etc on anyone so I can give a properly adjusted list of good lynch potentials to read.

[Majiffy]

So, they are newbscum cuz they killed Thor first, but if they were newbscum, they would have killed Hoss rather than Thor? Come again?

If Hoss were town, which I've said is highly unlikely.

Stop being selective and read the whole thread, please.

Honestly, I have a pretty significant town read on Fuji, much more that my townread on 194 even, so would not support his lynch. The main reason that I am down to Majiffy and Rach is POE, although POE also leaves Robo in my mind, but much farther behind. However, that POE leaves out Hoss, who I am going back and forth on. One of my main concerns is that with Iknal and now Rach, we seem to have almost no information on that player slot.

It is far too early to build your entire case on POE. Sorry, but this is just unacceptable.

[Majiffy]

I'm not being selective, and I understand that you are only making that point if Hoss is town. My problem, is that your point makes no sense to me if Hoss is town, and I was attempting to clarify that. So let me restate your arguments in the way I am interpreting them in the case that Hoss is town (so I will add "If Hoss is Town" to the front of each), and you tell me where I am mistaken.

Argument 1: If Hoss is Town, the fact that Thor was killed first implies that the scum team are newbscum.
Argument 2: If Hoss is Town, a newbscum team would probably have killed Hoss first rather than killing Thor first.
Argument 3: If Hoss is Town, by Argument 1, scum are newbscum, so by Argument 2, they would probably have killed Hoss first. This contradicts the what has occurred, so thus the assumption that Hoss is town is probably false.

You're reading this entirely wrong;

"Hoss is scum, thus"; repleaces "if Hoss is town"
Silly kid.

Oh, may I ask why? Also, I didn't say my entire case, I said my main case. Because frankly, I haven't seen too many strong scmtells in this game, but I have seen some pretty significant towntells. As stated before, the way you strongly came to the defense of Robo and 194 made me feel uneasy. Iknal made one kinda scummy post before replacing out, and I haven't seen enough of Rach to get a read. The fact that the two of you are who remains after POE, and that the two of you both have minor scumpoints (when nobody in this game has anything more than minor scumpoints) indicates to me rather strongly that at least one of you two is scum.

So you haven't seen any strong scumtells, you've seen a few (easily fakeable) towntells. And yet I'm scum. Ok.

194 and Robo are my strongest town reads. Why the fuck

wouldn't

I come to their defense?

Fuck you

if you have a problem with that.

So your entire case relies on "minor scumpoints"? Oh yeah, you're going to be a really fucking useful scumhunter.

[Majiffy]

If Hoss is scum it doesn't make any sense for mafia to bus if the wagon is stagnant. You aren't thinking clearly.

[Majiffy]

There's no bussing if he isn't scum, then they'd just hammer the mislynch.

And yes, I understand you don't think he's scum. But you keep asking me these questions with the frame of mind that he's

not

scum, whereas everything I've been saying is from the point of view that he

is

scum.

So basically, you're asking nonsensical questions.

[Majiffy]

@Majiffy: If hoss is scum and its a newbscumteam, then who is his partner?

I don't look for associatives until I have scum flips.

So essentially you said, "Hoss is scum, so Thor's death implies that scum is newbscum. newbscum would kill Hoss if he was town, so Hoss is scum." So, the final argument is that "Hoss is scum" implies "Hoss is scum". While I can't argue with that statement (it being a tautology and all), I must say that the statement is completely useless.

Strawman.

The two are unrelated; Thor's death implies newbscum has nothing to do with Hoss being scum, it just happens to

also

be the case that Hoss is scum. Hoss being scum is nowhere in the premises.

Good day.

Which is exactly why my main case is POE, which you for some reason got all up in arms about.

Yes, because it's too damned early and we've not enough flips to go on POE. POE should be reserved for when you have enough flips that you can discount scum by means of associative tells on confirmed flips, confirmed reports, etc. Things that are

confirmed

.

[Majiffy]

I don't think you understand the definition of strawman.

I have a dual major, one of which includes Philosophy. So thanks.

Strawman is when you misinterpret/skew an argument/position to make it easier to attack. Which is

exactly

what you've done.

In post 428 you stated "I'm not seeing experienced scum here, so they probably didn't leave him alive for WIFOM reasons; newbscum kills off PRs and experienced players first." This is a place where you DO state a connection between a newbscum team and Hoss being scum. In multiple places you have made seemingly contradictory statements.

"Not seeing experienced scum" therefore "Didn't leave him alive for WIFOM".
Again, Hoss being scum is in the conclusion,

not

the premise, as "didn't leave him alive for wifom" and "alive" -> Scum

There's nothing contradictory here, you're just fumbling your logic.

However, this is a discussion over whether your logic is correct (it isn't) not a discussion over your alignment. So I don't see the point in continuing this line of thought, unless you would like to continue it.

It's cute how you tag this onto the end of the argument. You shouldn't have posted if you didn't think it was worth discussing. You used this entire post to discredit me, and that's incredibly scummy behavior.

@Majiffy: Usually I would agree with you, however in this scenario I think it is befitting because you claim that this team is composed of newbscum. Which mean both scum are newbs. There is only a handful of newbs here, I would like to know who you believe to be connected to him. And if you don't want to look for connections, just some possible newbs for this team.

Personally I don't think we should base our choices of the nightkill. It is so ridiculously WIFOMy.

NKA is incredibly successful in my opinion, whereas trying to connect scum so early in the game with no scum flips has never resulted in a correct scum team in any game I've played in, from

anyone

. It's useless to talk about it now.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4178216
nhammen continues the logic discussion despite saying it's not worth discussing, wherein he continues to sling mud.

Consider yourself one of my scum reads, bucko.

[Majiffy]

What excellent points? The false statement that my logic is wrong? That's not a point, that's a false claim. That I've already demonstrated to be false.

And I ascribe to Occam's Razor. I find it more likely it's newbscum rather than WIFOM heavy experienced scum playing newbscum expecting a game full of experienced players to think it's newbscum with such limited newbs.

[Majiffy]

And you have demonstrated my claims to be false in the same sense that Creationists have "demonstrated" evolution to be false.

Also, on an entirely different note, your Night Kill Analysis is failing, because if you paid attention to Thor's scumlist, there was not a single newb in this game on that list. I remember his list perfectly, because it matched mine, except I did not include Robo on an equal level with the rest of the list. You, Rach, and Robo was his list. So even if we assume your statement about newbscum is true, why would newbscum target a player that doesn't even suspect them?

Experienced players are typically seen as a threat to newbs for more than just suspecting them. They get killed for having sway over town, the perception they're unlynchable, or the fear that they may eventually catch on.

How many newbie games have you played?

[Majiffy]

You can say it all you want, by my experience predominates heresay.

[Majiffy]

I claim he's scum because of my scum read on him. I claim the team is newbscum because Thor died.

So in essence, yes.

[Majiffy]

So.

If my information is correct then I have some things I need to tell you.

1. Hoss is an un cc'ed Doctor.
2. If it is a newbscumteam then I am amazed that Hoss pulled off a Doctor claim without screwing something up and getting away with it.
3. You are voting someone you shouldn't be.

3 is unfounded claim because;

a) he's a scum-read of mine; should I not be voting scum reads?

No.

b) Possible Open-Slot setups; Cop/Doc, Cop/JK, Cop/VT, Doc/JK, Doc/VT, JK/VT.
That means scum has a 50% chance off the starting block of not being CC'ed. Not bad odds.

This nullifies 1 and 2 in light of point A.

[Majiffy]

Moreso than the luck of experienced scum WIFOMing in an experienced-player filled game hoping they'll all think they're not WIFOMing.

[Majiffy]

Townie doesn't replace out at L-1 with no way out...

[Majiffy]

Rach you really aught to weigh in on the rest of the game.

Fuji - not if he considers himself caught already. Deception implies not already being caught-scum.

[Majiffy]

=\

[Majiffy]

Zorbag is satisfactorily town for now.

UNVOTE: Zorbag
194 lynch is bad, though.

[Majiffy]

Well as long as it's solid.

[Majiffy]

As solid as a solid rock.

As solid as my c-


Nope, not going to say it.

[Majiffy]

No I don't give replacements a clean slate. However, if the replacement's attitude and posting manner seems to come from a town's point of view, I think they should be given a grace period of further analysis.

[Majiffy]

Could you two stop focusing so much on each other and focus a tad more on the rest of the players? I feel a bit like sending you both to your rooms without supper here.

194, nhammen, Fujiko, RachMarie, Troll

Who would you like me to focus on out of this list? I have a town read on 2, 2 don't post much, and one just replaced in with one post.

[Majiffy]

On the converse, can't read person 2, reference player 1.

[Majiffy]

I was out of town for the weekend. I'll catch up later tonight.

[Majiffy]

So, my first reaction to this post is to instinctively seperate the five names into the listed groups. Earlier you stated your town reads as Robo, 194, and myself. But after this, you gave me scumpoints. So, did you forget I had scumpoints, or something else?

I just grabbed the names from the most recent vote-count. Also, way to dodge the question.

Majjify, is it still mostly gut for 194? Can you point to stretches of pro-town play or at least provide pro-town motivation for the play that we've got to counter what I'm seeing as scum motivation? Also, what's your take on my assumptions about day two play by a scum team in which they're leaving a claimed doctor who was at L-1 the previous day alive? Am I painting a reasonable picture there?

Almost entirely gut-read. 194 hasn't posted enough to make a town-case, but I really feel his posts have been earnest in helping town.

I'd have to re-read the case and the d2 analysis, I read them earlier but my memory is godfully awful. I'll do that after this post and get back to you.

There are a couple of reasons. As I told Majiffy himself, a large reason was that I

have

had a town read on everyone but Majiffy and Rach. An additional, but unspoken (untyped?) point is that Thor's scumlist just before he died was Majiffy, Rach, and Robo, and so there was a bit of night kill analysis there as well.

...

In fact, now that I think about it, this can't be a personality issue, because if he defended all of his townreads that strongly, he would have done the same for 194! Also, he kept saying Robo was town when he was voting him and not-so-subtly piling evidence on him... and still calling him town (see #208, #214, and his subsequent posts).

I know this gets into WIFOM territory, but I don't kill Thor.

194 hasn't been up for lynch. Completely different scenarios; I was trying to save Robo from lynch, as opposed to 194 who has not had a shred of suspicion up to Troll's replace-in.

My vote on Robo was pressure to get him to play better. It's worked.

VOTE: 194

That's L-1, I believe?

Already?

This fucking lynch is retarded. And the pile-on will show scum. Going to do some wagon analysis in a bit.

[Majiffy]

Not seeing any viable case in 511 for 194 vote. Feel free to bring up paraphrased segments for easy replies, but... Not seeing anything.
I'm not seeing scum in myself, robo and 194. And I feel the argument for one of us being scum is entirely circumstantial and here-say.
Argument for 194 lynch seems entirely circumstantial and POE. Fuck that. Scum's on this wagon.

Argument that 194 killed Thor because of pressure is an ok point, but honestly that's the only viable point I see and that can be held by anyone who feels pressured by Thor (read as: nearly anyone in this game)

Gunna do wagon analysis. This reeks of scum.

[Majiffy]

You never "pressured" me into anything. You weren't the reason that I picked up the pace. Part of self voting was to just act foolish.

If I recall correctly, the only thing you did was call me stupid over and over.

This wagon is not stupid. 3 people want and Thor also wanted 194 to die. You gave no reasons behind why you think to be a stupid lynch. Just calling stuff stupid doesn't make it any better.

Seriously? This is what you poke your head in for? I liked you more as the idiot that didn't post. Fuck off, man.

Also, maybe you could

read my posts

wherein I said I would return with further information on the things I didn't elaborate on.

[Majiffy]

This really hit home to me.

Troll's case really is an excellent case.

And though I usually wish to have my own reasons for voting people, i believe it important to get this thing rolling while I gather up my own reasons.

VOTE: 194

No. But you're town, so I'll ignore your stupidity for now.

VOTE: 194

That's L-1, I believe?

Cut the rest of your post out cuz - guess what? - you said nothing about 194 other than "he's one of my scum reads".

Fuck you. Here's our scum.

VOTE: Fujiko

[Majiffy]

Woah wait a minute here

Majiffy WTF?

All we get is I did not kill Thor (which since there are 2 scum left does not mean anything, in fact in Open 397 when I was scum I used that since one of my scum buds actually did the killing.) Then a major defending of 194?? Calling the wagon retarded?

This does not impress and plus scum points for you.

Looking forward to your wagon analysis.

Meanwhile it is ISO time for this game.

Good job reading my posts, nitwit.

[Majiffy]

Seriously, you have an anger problem. I'm not going to [redacted] off. This is a Mafia game.

You walk in here and say that you think the 194 lynch is retarded and that he is town. I have all right to step in and ask why you are chainsaw defending him.

But, as I said before, calling me stupid doesn't create a proper response to what I say.

Maybe if you read my [redacted] posts you'd [redacted] realize you're [redacted redacted], you [redacted redacted]

Seriously. Read my posts you pisspot.

However, I have noticed something: remember all those Maffijy posts about "Mafia is mostlikely newbscum"? Well, I have just found a reason for them.
If you ask in this game who are the newb players, first answer will probably contain me (This one is my very first Mafiascum game, in fact). So, Maffijy is hinting at this "look at 194, he's most likely scum". He in fact avoided to answer the question directly when Robo asked, in order to not contradict his open defense of me.

Are you retarded? I'm the only one defending you, you fuckwit.

[Majiffy]

@Majiffy, I realize that it's probably part of your game and you can play how you want, but I'd appreciate it if you toned down the insults a bit. It probably doesn't do much to move us closer to seeing the reasoning that people are working with at this point which I think is valuable.

Regardless of that, when you say that my day two reasons for one of you, robocopter87 and 194 almost certainly being scum is entirely circumstantial and here-say how much of that is due to the fact that it assumes that I'm the doctor? If I were to suddenly flip doctor and be out of the game and the day were to continue would it still be a worthless point?

I think your push on 194 is heresay. Robo is town, and I don't know why you're even considering him.

I can't tone down the insults. It's who I am; I hate people.

[Majiffy]

So, Maffijy is hinting at this "look at 194, he's most likely scum".

He in fact avoided to answer the question directly when Robo asked, in order to not contradict his open defense of me.

Are you retarded?

I'm the only one defending you

, you fuckwit.

I know you are the only one defending me. But that doesn't mean I have to do the opposite.

...

but I'm not that "fuckwit".

Read the bolded. Now read your post. Now read the bolded. Now shut up and sit in the corner.

Troll, I'll get to your post later when I'm on my laptop and not on my ultra-high-res-making-the-fonts-tiny work computer.

[Majiffy]

@Majiffy, I'll look forward to it.

-Zorblag R'Lyeh

In the studio till 4:30 AM last night, back in in about ~45 minutes. So this will have to be delayed until I get home tonight.

And you accuse me of dodging questions? Answer the question please.

Your question was in reference to your misinterpretation of the facts. But yes, I still think you're town, I'm just much less sure of that read.

194

,

nhammen

, Fujiko, RachMarie, Troll

wasn't even directed at me. So two things: 1) Who are the two townreads on that list and who are the two people that don't post much?

Does this make it easier for you?

2) Why do you accuse me of dodging a question that is not directed at me? Because it seems to me that you just took any excuse you could to throw suspicion on me. And I just unvoted you, but now it goes right back on. VOTE: Majiffy

Oh my,

how dare

I mistake someone responding to a pointed question with a post as having been the person who I addressed that question to!

Your vote looks incredibly advantageous.

194 raises a good point in #545 (that I believe I made earlier, but am not sure). Majiffy claims to believe there is a newbscum team. And yet, the only 2 newbs remaining in this game are 194 and Fujiko. Thus, if there is a newbscum team, 194 is scum. But he defends 194, so how can he believe there is a newbscum team?

This has already been addressed.

Every statement you have made about a newbscum team has been hinting that he is scum, while you still explicitly stated he was town.

Now, it is possible that you were referring to Fuji and Hoss as the supposed newbscum. But, you only mentioned Fuji as potential scum once prior to the newbscum argument (with no reasons, which is exactly what you are saying Fuji is scummy for). And your 194 townread is gut. So, this doesn't really make sense. And if one of these players flips town, then your hints are most definitely calling 194 scum. Hinting someone is scum while calling them town is a scum move.

Also, it seems to me that almost every piece of evidence you have come up with confirms the opinion that you already had. This indicates to me that either you are tailoring your "evidence" to fit your "reads", or you are only seeing evidence that fits a very strong confirmation bias of yours.

There've

never

been any hints of 194 as scum. Bring me

one

quote that proves otherwise. I don't hint. I'm very blatantly in-your-face about my reads and that goes for either alignment. This whole "hinting" argument against me is complete bullshit.

Oh, you mean I'm bringing up the things I've seen that made me feel a certain way? Did Newton have a confirmation bias about gravity? You're just skewing the facts now.

[Majiffy]

Finally have time.

Suppose we've got a newbie game in which there is a mislynched vanilla townie day one and someone who's not scum claims doctor with no counter claims after being brought to L-1. Let's also have the doctor claimant make a pretty poor hammer to end the day. Assuming scum didn't kill the player during the night how likely do you think they would be to have at least one of the two scum members jump on an inevitable wagon on the doctor claimant the next day? You can use whatever scale you'd like. I'm clearly trying to describe this game and look at what the scum team would do assuming I'm not a member of it so feel free to fill in any more details you want that would bring the hypothetical in line with what we've got. If the caliber of the scum team makes a difference I'm happy to hear what you think the cases might look like.

Breaking this down, I'm going to give you the points I agree with in your d2 analysis;

So here's my issue with Day 2 so far. I know that I'm the doctor and that TheHossaim claimed it yesterday. I'm still alive today for a reason. To oversimplify slightly, either the scum didn't believe the claim (that's pretty unlikely,) they had other things to worry about than a doctor (in which case it'd be Thor665 as he was the kill,) or they figured that TheHossaim was in a weak enough position at the start of Day 2 that they'd have a fair chance of letting the town kill him without needing to use a night kill of their own. It could be a possibility of those but they're the main things that are likely to have been going through scum heads.

I agree if you're town, this is accurate. Also, there's not a whole lot I can say in regards to arguing a majority of your d2 standpoint as it's geared from Hoss/Zor town perspective and thus not logically unsound. However, I found Hoss incredibly scummy (you're well on your way to reversing that read, however) and so I'm definitely not ruling out the fact that a majority of your logic thus is incorrect (although sound) as it relies on an incorrect premise (Hoss/Zor town)

The players that have voted for TheHossaim today have been robocopter87, 194 and Majjify. Rach Marie, it's worth noting, did post early in Day 2 to day that she would be V/LA. She would have known that was coming up I suspect and thus if she's scum she wouldn't have been the partner who was supposed to be on the TheHossaim wagon early. Fujiko and nhammen were both on and cast votes other places early; they'd almost certainly given the game thought during the first night so they wouldn't have been the scum that was supposed to get an early vote on TheHossaim. And that's everyone left in the game other than TheHossaim.

At least one (and probably exactly one) of 194, Majiffy and robocopter87 is likely to be scum. We probably also have one scum in the Fujiko, nhammen, Rach Marie group.

As Zor-town, I would agree with this assessment. As Zor-scum, I agree with the latter (Fuj/nham/Rach scum) with nham being the least likely. I've read your reasons for voting 194 but frankly I'm still seeing him as town so I disagree just on the nature of that alone. Could be confirmation bias, but I doubt it.

194 killing Thor to protect his ass would make sense, but there's just as much WIFOM as to "why not kill the doctor" as there is "lets frame 194". So that part is kind of out the window.

Now that that's out of the way,

I'm going to be V/LA for the next two (2) days

. I'm working on polishing off a beat for a hip hop artist I'm getting into the studio in the very near future, and I need to focus my time and energy at home on doing that.

[Majiffy]

Also, sorry for the wall. Anyone not interested in my Zor d2 analysis breakdown can feel free to ignore the above.

[Majiffy]

I'm back. The song is uploading, and I'll post it at the bottom of my catch-up post when it is. Just the instrumental so far, but if anyone is interested in hearing the finished copy (provided this incredibly-unreliable-artist gets back to me) just send me a PM.

[Majiffy]

Scum fake claiming day one know that they won't get killed during the night; they have time to get ready for it going into day two. Had he been scum, TheHossaim would have been working with that knowledge from the minute that he typed the doctor claim the first time. He's either going to play through that once day two has started or he's just going to have given up by the time the day starts. He's not going to bother with his confused post and then bail. That's a reaction that's much more likely to come from actually confused and frustrated town who've just learned that they're still alive and then decide that the game isn't worth it as they've got no way to get through the day.

For now, this will satisfy me; particularly in light of how pro-town you've been. At the moment, I'll consider your slot town.

In light of this; I'll vote 194 at the end of this post provided he's not at L-1 or another more suitable wagon has been brought up.

Rach is a good vote...
Fuji is a good vote...

At what point did I become one of your townreads again?

Your general play reads as town, so I'm willing to chalk off a few rather scummy posts in light of them. Just stop doing them, cuz it'll make my life easier.

I would think that if I asked someone a question, I would remember who it was that I asked...

You put far too much stock in an ex-hippie alcoholic's memory.

Every statement about newbscum has been hinting at 194 being scum, even though you have never addressed him by name. And yes, you could have been referring to two specific newbs, but you didn't say they were the scumteam. You were more general than that.

This is just false. I've been continually calling 194 town, so to even allude that I've been hinting he's scum is just sticking your head firmly up your own buttocks and then yelling profusely about the smell.

I'm saying that I believe that if you are town, then you are forming conclusions and then gathering evidence based on those conclusions, rather than gathering evidence and forming conclusions based on that evidence.

I understand what you're saying, I'm just disagreeing on the point that it is the case.

Oh good another Rach vote.

You should stop joining other games.

This guy, right here. He's a winner.

194 has incredibly bandwagony reads. Not happy with that.

Fuji is a girl? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I know, right?

Fuji - sorry if I've been referring to you as 'he', but that gender is now stuck in my head with your name so you're stuck with it.

Fuji's vote reeks of both bandwagon and self-preservation.
VOTE: Fuji
This is the better lynch.

Rach, post more. Please, for the love of god. Post more.

Song still isn't done uploading, so maybe when it's done I'll post a link.

[Majiffy]

Beat

[Majiffy]

I wouldn't mind stating intent if it hadn't been for the fact that my stronger scum read jumped on it, and that it gained speed so fast.

[Majiffy]

Glad you like it. Unfortunately the artist that was supposed to spit over it is a flake. :\

[Majiffy]

[Majiffy]

I have the strangest boner right now.

Also, I totally remember seeing that in one of the Futurama movies.

[Majiffy]

y u no invite me, I'm a perfect Fry. Especially if Tierce is Leila.

[Majiffy]

Mod, I believe everyone should be voting Fujiko.

Amidoinitrite?

[Majiffy]

Fuji; hey, I had to try it

[Majiffy]

Has this game died?

Rach, Nham, where u go

[Majiffy]

Giving his reads is not a reason enough to withdraw from discussion.

[Majiffy]

Also

Stating intent to hammer RachMarie

because what the fuck. This game is starting to bore me, and usually I don't get bored by short-ish games like Newbie games. I blame the inactives.

[Majiffy]

Well, given that roundabout 2.5 pages of discussion have occurred, I'd like at least an "I don't really have anything to say about any of this" post so that I know he at least read it.

[Majiffy]

I'd just like to see active participants is all.

[Majiffy]

Kill either, one of those two is scum. I don't care who you kill. Kill it with fire.

This is exactly how I feel. I'm happy with today's wagons.

I'm going to do an ISO of both and make up my mind which one I want to hammer on.

[Majiffy]

2 votes and growing support for his lynch, with Rach as the only viable alternative.

[Majiffy]

Got the day off so I'll be doing those ISOs later tonight.

[Majiffy]

I prefer the Rach lynch. I want a claim in your next post, Rach.

[Majiffy]

I'm with Robo on this. Blood god grows restless.

[Majiffy]

Stating intent to hammer. 194 is the right choice. Robo is the only other pick that makes sense (excepting 194) with Thor dying before Hoss since his claim was apparently legit.

Also we're at a 50/50 setup is doc/cop. Could still be doc/vt or doc/jk. We'll see if a counterclaim arises from either nhammen or 194.

[Majiffy]

VOTE: Fujiko
Autowin.

[Majiffy]

Hey bro u scum?

[Majiffy]

Oh good i'm still in this game.

VOTE: 194
Still autowiin.

[Majiffy]

Can't believe I was so off with 194. Annoying.

Dead QT was a fun read.

194 - Nice job. Counterclaim killed you, but in general I think you played well.
Fujiko - Same. Wouldn't have lynched you had it not been autowin and didn't matter who got lynched first.
nhammen - Supertown. Nice job.
Robocopter87 (SE) - See above.
Majiffy (IC) - Keep calm and DFTBA.
RXK - We didn't really get to play a whole lot for me to say much, but you played well.
Thor665 - Thor is Thor.
RachMarie - I was kind of miffed at your lack of activity, but I do gather it was personal reasons and these things happen. In the future you should probably replace out if you can't give a slot the attention it needs; it's just kind to the other players to do so, methinks.
Zorblag - You made for a nice breath of fresh air. It was fun playing with you
Elmo - Yeah I really don't like having to be nice. SE all the way from here on out, methinks.

Sorry

(not really)

to everyone about my attitude. It's how I am. If we play future games, you'll get used to it.

[Majiffy]

I can never trust a Thor, especially one with such a magnificent beard.

[Majiffy]

Can I... can I touch it? Just a little touch...

[Majiffy]

[Majiffy]

A++ Would stroke again.

[Majiffy]

Can't believe I was so off with 194. Annoying.

I'm irritated I was that far off on my read of you. What do y'all look for in scum anyway?

It's hard to say, but one of my personal favorites is a cognitive disconnect in reads/actions/behavior. If you're seeing a lot of glaring contradictions, there's got to be a reason behind it.

Rach - What did I say? I don't remember.

[Majiffy]

Oh, and I'm working on a Thor read technique. I'll let ya know

[Majiffy]

Lolol

[Majiffy]

Hey I'm INTJ too!

We should totally have a party sometime.

[Majiffy]

Oh god can we do a mason pair? And we'll just start masoning people in order of obnoxiousness or bullheadedness.

[Majiffy]

Rofl.

[Majiffy]

That's actually cool three of us are in one game - it's one of the rarer personality types (indeed, the 2nd most rare after the rather uncommon INFJ). I suspect the aspects of the game of Mafia tend to appeal to us more than with some other personality types.

That's what I'm thinking.

[Majiffy]

It was too good not to put in my signature, especially since I've been pushed multiple times based entirely on attitude/playstyle and nothing alignment-based.