Newbie 1320 -- Game Over

[Remembrance]

Yes! I knew it godfather, I knew the reason you were trying to dissuade me was because you pmed too! I'm on to your deceptive ways.

I'll do a read up of everyone, as I see them, for now I will be honest since this is my first game. And I have virtually no experience at this.

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Oh, and /confirm not sure if necessary but might as well.

1. I have received a nice reputation bonus from the person who I replaced.
2. My current buddy scum team is Cat and Gadial as buddies. Mostly, this is because they've been walking awkwardly around each other all game. I think Cat's lack of interest in his own bad spell as suspect is because he's hoping that other players will lose interest and move on as other players give out tells. (Which is what happened)
3. My solo scum tell (person I most suspect if I'm wrong on the other team) Is Cub because of a few posts he made, one where he wrote what was equivalent to "well, I better post now or they'll start to suspect me" and also his lurking and for lack of a better word "moderating" the discussion around Cat. I think he was doing this to start up a chain of lynchers.

That is all for now, I think I will put my money where my mouth is here

Vote Mr Zephyr

Thoughts?

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Hi Mr. Ree, Is there anything you would like me to do particularly with my posts? Other than that, I have nothing to say because you're my #4 as my scum. I read another poster saying your play style was to "stay" neutral. But obviously, this makes you suspicious because neutral usually means "I hope they forget about me so I can stay for the whole game." Which I imagine is pretty selfish, your win/loss ratio seems to imply this as well. Er, assuming I understand this.

Actually, I have a question about your play style Mr. Ree. When pushed, do you tend to get more involved?

Also, Hi everybody and thanks for inviting me Nobody.

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When I pmed Nobody I immediately started reading the thread. You can confirm this by reading my post in the newb queue.

I was also reading my Biology text book.

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Wait....Fail turtle was already on this guy. Lol. Obviously he convinced no one to get on the gravy train. I am going to try and change that.

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Hmm you have a point about refusing to answer questions. But at the same time, if you're scum then giving you information that you could use to pin a newbie to the wall wouldn't exactly be hard for you to do. I'm not quite sure how I would react if a "wagon?" Got on me because I've never really had to defend myself before.

That said, could you humor me and vote for Zephyr? I really do think he:
1: Knew I was obv. town because he's scum.
2: (using terms I saw on wiki, Thanks Godfather!i) Tried to bus his teammate who was going inactive.
3: Realized his partner wasn't going to get bussed so left off to get an easy town kill.

Now obviously as a newbie I should be wary of trying hard to make the facts go my way rather than me going with the facts. Still, I think this is a fair compromise from you to show you're willing to be a bit more active and I get my way, what say you sir?

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Fair enough!

Firstly, if you don't mind, I am going to summarize without block quoting the person Gavian/Zephyr in question. This is mostly because since I believe it's ugly. Also, I don't really think, given our ability to have words permanently in text that I'm going to run into many players making an, "opps, I admitted I'm a scum in my dialogue." Instead, i find it more about general activity and actions. Therefore, I don't think a single sentence will seal the deal for me to win an argument.

1. First few posts by Gadian can be summarized as "I'm not doing much, but that could change, should I see an opportunity."

2." Catlord - At first I thought he was town but I'm not sure now. He seems to be over-thinking things a tad, at least about Cub's vote on shaboo. But he could just be a cautious townie who's over-thinking things a bit So at the moment my read on him is null." This is his most detailed first reading. Which is all kinds of "well, should I or shouldn't I?"

3. Notes my predecessor as "likely town" which was not contradicted by Zephyr, who became even more sure of it.

4. Gadian- "Now I will admit that if someone was to have a very convincing case on someone, after a bit of rereading the game, I would probably go with it." He's been like this the whole game so far. He even mentions that he hasn't been as "active as he should be in deciding." Note, he isn't particularly inactive post wise, just inactive in any kind of investigation whatsoever. Now it's far to say that hasn't had much time (he got replaced after all). But just because he doesn't have much time doesn't excuse his lack of voting in any direction or even bothering to at least throw a question out there and then let everyone else pick up the pieces. He does nothing.

5. Zephyr shows up: "VOTE: Catlord because he's fucking obvscum. Why isn't he dead yet? More on this later." Writes a fairly convincing piece than says "J.K. just reaction fishing, going to go vote insanity since all he's done the whole game is defend himself providing plenty of info which I just used to rationalize my vote on Cat."

6. I think he switched to insanity to establish consistency and rationalizing why he got off Cat. For later. But it just comes off as hypocritical to me. If he had carefully read (which he obviously did) then why did he attack insanity who has already done nothing but talk about himself? People were on and continue to be on his case. Zephyr even criticizes Kuro for the same activity of attacking Shaboo when the pressure was already on!

7. Zephyr has been a good reader, noticed that he was not in the best position town cred wise because of Gadian, and has been trying to establish Town cred but has not yet been investigated himself. At the very least now is a good time to see how he likes being hit with the heat.

8. "If neutrality is a scumtell with one person it's a scumtell in every person" This adds to sixth argument and is consistent to defending Gadian's actions.


There's probably more, but if this isn't enough, then 3 more pieces aren't going to convince you.

Tell me how I did, since this is the first argument I've made so far.

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Just because it's near my bed time doesn't excuse how bad this post looked. I should have checked my spacing. The first paragraph was useless. There were many grammatical and punctuation errors. That was a painful test post. And I'm sorry. Please chalk it up to "overexcited newbie." I will do better in the morning.

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I read what you wrote Hawk. You're right, it is not a good basis for accusation. That stated Gadian is, regardless of Zephyr, not looking good in my books. I don't think it's possible to defend

his play.

I have a quick question before going to bed. I heard that there is a night time where scum can talk to each other, but everyone else can't. When is this time?

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Confirmed. Will be reading today and then getting up a comprehensive reads post.

Hi Rob, I read your post in the queue, I'll refrain from doing it in the future.

Response to MrZephyr's points.

1. The point of accusing you to be scum because you know I'm scum has already been refuted by Eagle. I appreciate a second telling off though!

2. If you turned around and called me scum I would say that you're wasting everyone's time. I will answer every question honestly and I'll provide plenty of evidence against myself in the process. Pressuring me won't reveal much that you don't already know regardless if you're scum or not. Better to waste resources on players you know are generally quiet.

3. You said there was nothing you could do to remedy Gadian's play, yet you admit to starting out strong like you did to remedy his play. (To stop players wasting their time accusing you).

4. You stopped pursuing Insanity because he was a jerk? I don't think being a jerk or being polite are tells or admissions to anything. You're right to it being somewhat detrimental to the game, but he is providing information about himself which is, I think, a quarter of the job of a town member. Also, he can easily make the excuse that he's defending himself in order to see who's scum by accessing their reactions. A lot of his posts come off this way.

5. This point confuses me. You're basically saying that you don't want to be accused and lynched by scum. Which is perfectly reasonable as a player. But it doesn't actually say anything.

6. I will continue to try then.

Additional notes: I don't think Mafia was scum because his first game he got lynched day 1 as town. If he were scum I think he would stay for the novelty. This might be what you called "meta" Mr. Ree.

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I think an important point to make is that Gadian was not playing investigative reporter. Unless your definition of investigative reporter is birdwatching.

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Re-read the whole thread again.

Okay, going to make another push for Zephyr pressure. This is going to be more personalized. I want 3 other votes on him.

Mr. Ree.
1. Amish point against Zephyr.

I should clarify that it's not that I didn't read the pages, I just didn't bother analyzing them the same way

I did the first 10 pages or so"

Gadian's last post was post #224 This means he only read up to where he stopped posting. This points to him having read Gadian's posts and, while this might come of as straw-manny, admits to being less interested in anyone elses.

Mr. Insanity.

1. You state you were up for voting for either Zephyr or Hawk. I'm asking you follow up on that. Obviously I need to give you a reason to vote for Zephyr over Hawk. Comes up in point 2.

2. I think you're town, Hawk is not sure. I will defend you if you get on this wagon and you can get off it if you don't like where it is going. zephyr and Hawk agree that you're suspicious, when you're merely doing your thing. If you survive round two it will not be difficult for them to agree (regardless of their alignment) to lynch you just to be safe. They'll do this because they don't like your play style. Which I don't think is that uncommon on this site.

Mr. Cub.

1. You agree on one of my lines of attack. I agree it doesn't link him to cat in anyway. The pairing is a gut move on my part. But notice I attacked Zephyr over Cat, even though he doesn't have a wagon and is less likely to get lynched as a result. The reason I did that, is because Cat is successfully defending himself. But Zephyr hasn't had to. Please vote on Zephyr.

Additional question: Mr. Ree. I realize I don't actually know what to look for when scum-hunting, can you tell me what I should be looking for when scum-hunting? I've been reading the Wiki too, but some personalized advice would help.

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Okay Insanity.

Hawk I'm neutral on. It goes into WIFOM? territory. I won't go into Wifom unless you want it (If you want it ask, and I'll write it up). For now I'll just give a general feel, which I assume is worthless to you based on your love of logic.

I think that Hawk is either active town trying to lead, or active scum trying to lead. The only other thing I've noticed is that he's associated himself with a bunch of players. Sometimes it looks like he's stealing the opinions of others instead of agreeing with them and I don't necessarily disagree with Kuro's point that it looks like his questions are set ups.

However, Hawk has been willing to give information about himself, which makes me hesitate to throw him under the bus right now. This is because there's plenty you can tie to him. The way he's covering his tracks is in itself a tell, which I think is valuable.

Like I said, if you want Wifom, I'll give you Wifom. Just make sure you have a paper bag after.

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The part where I said he's covering his tracks. This is something that someone who believes themselves under scrutiny does to protect their partner or to protect themselves to save other townies time.

The reason I say null is because I can interpret his actions 10 different ways. But they're just narratives, one created by Kuro. Some of it, such as Hawk agreeing with an unusual number of players, is temporal-evidence, but not legitimate until he gets killed. Either way he's providing evidence. Which is something other players haven't done (hint, hint Zephyr).

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I am actually starting to get tired of your base-less attacks. If you have something legit to say, then do it, but quit attacking people on personal merit. I have put a lot of time into this game and no, my reasoning isn't weak. It may

look

weak to you, but its not. Do you honestly think scum is going to hand themselves over to us on a silver-platter?

If you want me to point out everything I have done and accomplished in the game I could make a whole super-long post about it, but there wouldn't be a point to it

.

Not a bad idea, could you summarize it while I wait for Ree to post and Rob to catch up?

Obviously, since I'm asking you to. I will provide two reasons for you to do so.

1. It allows you to get perspective on what you've done so far.
2. It allows me to see where you're coming from, I have a hard time understanding your posts, especially this post, which seems like an attention grabber and a waste of Insanities time as well as towns. Go on, for science.

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I think once Rob catches up we'll be in position to hammer (if Zephyr wants to defend himself, he can post in between then).

Thanks for your support Ree, Insanity. I partly pursued Zephyr as hard as I did because of your "analyzing wagon" post, it really hit home how important actions are in this game. I think I'll stick to pressuring for people to DO stuff rather than talk for the rest of this game (if I don't get stabbed/shot).

Also, no pressure, but could you respond to post #414 (dunno how to link it)? Thanks.

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I meant the additional parts section of 414, not the whole post.*

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Uh, you got replaced dude.

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Np! Never lose that easy going spirit. It makes you charming.

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Now, before I go to bed I would just like to say one last thing to all of you. I imagine at this point Zephyr is preparing a large argument, working the wheels in that ol' noggin of his and hoping that Kuro will be a sufficient distraction to get people off his case. But before you post that, and convince me, convince me hard with your amazing argument that absolutely obliterates my sunk cost fallacy and hard-earned confirmation bias, I would like to make an argument in return sir. I call it:

An appeal to pity

As you know, I am a complete newbie at this game, I am tiny, inexperienced, and frankly, have no clue what I'm doing. You were here, once Zephyr, you were here. In my shoes. Now, I wanted to start off my first game with a bang, Zephyr, a bang. I imagine that most newbies get lynched within the first day, maybe the second if they're lucky. Unable to defend themselves and contradicting themselves all over the place they're found easy targets by wiser scum who don't want to waste the night kill. For them, it is like taking candy from a baby Zephyr, Candy. From. A baby. You wouldn't steal candy from a baby would you Zephyr? No, of course you wouldn't. You're better than that. As you know, I will one day get out of this newbie pool and enter the big kids table, with their glassy stares and scarred, sexy visages, cigars in their mouths, with a stony continence. they'll have that on me, Zephyr they'll have

stories.

but I won't. Not unless you do something for me. I am appealing to your humanity when I ask you to do this, with my tiny voice I am stretching my deflated lungs here. I am pleading with you, Zephyr, please take your vote, the vote that changes everything, the vote that defines you as a human being in this place, and vote to kill yourself. I am asking this of you for you this for two reasons: 1) I want to be the first newbie that convinced scum(or town) to kill himself with his own vote on his first day with an appeal to pity argument. I will be remembered for this, take a look at my name Zephyr, I don't desire much, I just want to be...Remembered. 2) I will take it as a formal apology for forcing me to read your league of legends posts while examining your meta, I felt sick afterward.

That is all. I expect to see a dead body in here when I wake up. Have a good evening guys!

[Remembrance]

Good morning fellows, I’ve responses for you at the bottom of my post, but first I want to deal with Zephyr’s counter arguments. Those not Zephyr don’t have to read it because it’s mostly flavored criticism, and also really long. With that said: Ethos/pathos/minor role play on.

1. Hi Zethyr, if you think I responded to your post within 6 minutes, then you give me too much credit. If I didn’t respond to your post, then how did I predict you would attack Kuro? Easy, it was the most selfish thing I could think of. You’ve devalued an important aspect of a who-dunnit game where you cannot win without the assistance of other players: argument. You’ve put the truth on hold for self-preservation, turned the sacred search for truth, into mere sophistry. DO YOU THINK IT’S OKAY TO THROW THAT VOTE AROUND WILLY-NILLY LIKE IT AIN’T NO THANG? HAVE YOU NO DECENCY? PEOPLE’S LIVES HANG IN THE BALANCE MAN, AND WHAT’S WORSE, YOUR ARGUMENT FOR DOING SO IS THINNER THAN THE PAPER USED FOR YOUR VOTE (There’s no paper here, it’s the internet). I DEMAND YOU UNVOTE THAT MAN RIGHT NOW, YOU DO NOT THROW A MAN UNDER THE TROUGH TO PROTECT YOURSELF. BEFORE USING THAT VOTE AGAIN ASK YOURSELF IF IT WOULDN’T BE BETTER SPENT ON YOURSELF FOR THE BENEFIT OF YOUR COMMUNITY. I’m totally new to this game, so, I’m unsure if this is a legitimate scum-tell, but I think that the fact you’ve done this shows that you’re scum, or town that forgot who he was (that or you’re just confusing me, but that can be cleared up once you’re dead!).

2. The reason we should not lynch Kuro this round is because he has presented himself as a hypothesis crafter, like Ree. He has demonstrated his craft by presenting an explanation for Hawk’s slightly-off actions, and somewhat convincingly at that. While this is a selfish style of play (basically asking to be kept alive to provide helpful input in the second round once the evidence accumulates), it is still a legitimate play style. In the next round, if they cannot pay up on their promise to provide good explanations for behavior witnessed in round one, then they have betrayed that promise and are now semi-scummy. I will investigate them and their hypotheses when, not before, they give them, dead-line mid-round two.

3. You, on the other hand, have presented yourself as a searcher, like me, someone trying to extort explanations and actions from other players for evidence for the hypothesis crafters. It is our job to build wagons and question people. You’ve proven no good at hypothesis, especially after this Kuro accusation. As searchers we take the brunt of the scrutiny and die willingly to provide timely evidence for the other players. A problem that has cropped up at this point for you is that by stretching the truth like this to get people off you, you've also devalued your worth as a searcher. If you're willing to postpone your search to stay alive, why not just kill you and have a better searcher in round two? Also, I reject your "give me time to build a case on Hawk" You've failed to provide a single convincing argument or hypothesis.

4. When a person dies, and a player flips, a piece of the 9 person puzzle gets “set” and we now know, in general, what that player was doing and thinking. We can use that information to analyze their interaction with their perspective in mind. There are 19 pages worth of posts, there’s plenty to analyze and somebody has to die so we can work on new evidence. As a town member, die with dignity so that we can use it for a town victory.

5. With that overblown piece, I end with your own post

“I'm willing to let this guy hang”

With an addition that I think much improves it

“For the good of the community.”

Off/Pathos/ethos/minor role play.

P.S. We can still be buddies, right? :<

@ProHawk It’s good to know my humor is likable

@Cub, I appreciate that you Loled, I’ll look at that game when I have time later.

@Mr. Ree. I’m glad you enjoyed it! If you really enjoyed it maybe, you could post it in the award 2013 thread later for a funny post award. I doubt it will be the funniest, but hey, they might get a kick out of it. In reply to your question about Mafia, that was a mistake on my part, I meant The Godfather. A player who replaced in then replaced out almost instantly. I think Rob is not scum because God father replaced out so quickly for the reasoning mentioned.

@Everyone else, please don’t kill Zephyr until Rob posts what he makes of these events, he seems like a really good player and I think his input matters.

(I’m not the boss of you, but someone has to say it, might as well be the wordy one)

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When you catch up, tell me what you think of my reasoning for your innocence.

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You mean it's a non-sequitur. I'll keep that in mind for after Ron posts. I'm extremely comfortable with Zephyr right now though. I've provided my arguments, it's up to the rest of you to decide if they suck or not.

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Okay Rob, I'm glad we could get your input.

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You've provided 3 things to our discussion.

1. Evidence of Cat on Lurking status
2. A voting pattern showing sheep.
3. Heavy amounts of projection onto cat.

Two of these things support your argument. One of them does not.

I''ll think about changing my vote, but I'd like you to give a reason why we shouldn't lynch Zephyr then, lynch cat next round. Zephyr has no reason to be kept around.

[Remembrance]

Also, you've stated that Zephyr is completely neutral. Don't you find that strange given the amount Zephyr has posted recently? It is because his arguments have a way of getting us nowhere. They do not provide evidence of anything but his sheer inability to prevent himself from contradiction.

[Remembrance]

Projection is not really the right word, I'll give you my meaning: Looking at the actions of another player and thinking about how you would react. Using your own reactions and habits as a basis for their actions. Just because you think and act a certain way, doesn't mean everyone else does. It is taking a walk in their shoes without considering the history of their personalities(where the shoes have been before you got in them). This is unfortunate, since, if he had some meta, I'd be more willing to accept this part of your argument.

Before providing a short, summarized list, I just want to remind you that these reasons are bad. Please evaluate them individually. If you find one as valid compound it with all other valid entries. If Zephyr is spared we can pick over this list later. I'll be frank, none of these are definitive proof that Zephyr is scum.

1. Amish tell.
2. Early random voting, with poorly constructed reasoning for doing so. When he had good reasons to keep up the pressure he left off (Cat). Uses a flimsy excuse to vote insanity, and an even flimsier one when backing off ("he didn't respond the way I wanted, /vote," "He's a jerk, /unvote.")
3. Selfish voting to keep self alive (Kuro).
4. Contradictions, often found in own posts. You used WIFOM as a reason not to keep Cat alive, I used it before you did, as a reason to end Zephyr. See Insanities post #426 for one of many examples, they actually got so bad that I decided not to comment on them.
5. Poorly constructed hypotheses and narratives on other player's actions (not going to be helpful round 2).
6. Gadian's "investigative reporting."
7. Didn't vote himself after my appeal to pity. The man is heartless, which is a scum tell.

That said, I read cat's post while making this one, and it comes off really suspicious. It's something I would write if I was under suspicion when I was 15. But maybe now that I'm older, I've just become prejudiced. Anyway, I don't want to lynch cat this round. But if I absolutely had to choose someone other than Zephyr, I'd choose Cat.

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Re: 7: Literally just something that came into my head and I thought was funny. See how you posted that image of that guy with the sun-glasses? Same thing. Mine was more creative though

Okay. Unfortunately Zephyr has just tried to "buddy" you. He's also is flirting his vote. Of course, you will respond with "he also had him as a scum read initially." But if he had him as a true scum read, would he really have flipped off him that fast? Sorry, court your vote else where. Try Cub.

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Actually, I take back what I said. No need for posturing, I really don't think you're scum Rob. for my own reasons. But I'm not interested in changing my vote right now. I'm waiting for something.

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At this point, I'm tunnel visioning but even his posting style is changing. Look how organized he suddenly is. He's trying to remove this criticism of his play. But not mentioning it out right.

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Zephyr, you're the apple of my eye. I'm talking about you and it's near my bed time. I'm glad Kuro made a move. But I don't know what to make of it yet.

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Town cop.

Ah Fudge.

/Unvote MrZephyr

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Wait, why "town cop" and not just cop?

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It just occurred to me that if Zephyr's scum then there's no way to get a counter-claim because he'll know there is no other cop. Therefore, two players would have to confirm a power role to 100% lynch cat. This would help his scum buddy (if he's scum). So, it's hard to lynch Zephyr right now...Hmm.

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Oh, I didn't know that they couldn't see their roles. I thought they knew who everyone was. It just occurred to me that, that makes no sense. Either, because it would give them a huge advantage. @_@)

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Give me a bit, Rob. Then I'll vote Cat.

Going to go re-read Zephyr's posts to reconcile his play with his claimed role.

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Gadian's play fits the bill better. It would explain his unwillingness to stand out.

Not seeing a cop's play in Zephyrs. But this may just be because I'm inexperienced. The only thing, I get from this claim, is that it explains his selfish voting and case-building.

I don't like it, no matter how I look at Zephyr's post. Still, with the role claim he might be worth keeping around until someone contradicts him. It also gives us a trail to work with, he's provided evidence we can use against him later. So I'll withdraw the lack of constructive evidence accusation.

You got your vote from Hawk, that's 3 votes. I see no reason to put him at L-1 until Ree posts. Once he does, I'll lynch Cat.

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He's at L-1 btw. Intent to Hammer, but not until Ree posts and Zephyr answers Rob's question about bread crumb trails.

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Okay guys, I'm going to be gone for about 8 hours, so if someone is lynched before I get back, here were my town and scum reads at the end of day 1:

Town: Insanity, Rob, Cub.

Neutral: (they want to be here, minus hawk) Kuro, Ree, Hawk.

Scummy: Cat, Zephyr.

My Will: In the unfortunate occurrence of my sudden passing please consider the following actions:
1. Ask Ree and Kuro to provide their hypotheses for town scum. Only look at their logical, not ethical or emotional arguments. They don’t get to use that since they’re getting a free pass round one. If they do not provide adequate information (or, if they give scummy hypotheses), pressure them, a lot.

2. Let Rob be Rob. I really do think he’s town as all hell. Day 3, if he makes it, restart your assumption and think about it.

3. Pressure Cub a bit. He’s always looked perfect town in his games. Might as well shake him violently and see if anything falls out.

4. Hawk, try asking fewer questions and letting people respond to them. I’ve realized, I need to chill with my posts too, it’s unfair to expect a response to everything. Just take what they choose not to respond to as evidence. Also, It’s not a bad idea to look Hawk over, I never said anything, but he’s never bothered to question me. Maybe I’m just bitter at the lack of attention from those sexy avatar eyes.

5. Cat, If he is not lynched today, lynch if there is so much as a suspect phrase.

6. Insanity. Yeah, I have no clue. Just do your thing, see where it takes you.

7. Zephyr: If he survives, leave off him until near the end of day 2. He might have gotten a read and is trying to do something with it. Still, I find his posting suspect.

[Remembrance]

Reading up on detecting cops.

Looked at Wiki, he pings up to 5% as cop (quick voting).
Scum reads, he pings 30% (5% comes from an admittedly insane person, Zephyr pinged 3 on his list, he had no percentages, so I put 2% on 2 of his reads I thought were legit and 1% on one I don't really agree with)
Overall, I don't care that he pinged 30%, I don't want to lynch a potential cop day 1.
Gunna let Ree say his piece tomorrow. Then Imma hammer cat. (unless Ree comes up with something amazing).

I've been reading what Cat has been saying and I don't like his case that much though. The only scummy thing he's ever said is

I was just about to jump on this small bandwagon, but I realised that since it takes five to lynch and two Mafia...having three votes on a person we are not sure about does not sound like a good idea...

But at this point, it's better than nothing.

Usually, I don't like using direct questioning, but can you show me the tells you left as cop Zephyr? Thanks.

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then my little joke tag when I talked about laundry and my night job.

color me impressed.

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Don't make me regret sparing you Zephyr.

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Rob, put your piece in, I know you're online. Then I'm voting Cat. (I'll make an effort post, after you post)

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Okay, effort post time. I've reread the thread for the third time.

First off, Zephyr just hit 45% scum ping. If he had claimed vanilla town, he would've been lynched. He knows it, and we know it. He

had

to claim cop, regardless if he is scum or actual cop. For this reason, I reject Ree comparing himself to Zephyr. I think Ree would use smaller scum tells and look for who picked up on them for an easy lynch, as well as examining the wagon. Ree wouldn't have used this many scum tells because it would just get him lynched and defeat the purpose(no point guaranteeing his lynch as town). Especially given his role as cop. I don't see a reason for this much suspicious activity, resulting in a claim 1st day, just to scum hunt day 1. From the previous sentence, you can surmise that I disprove of Zephyr's actions this round, if he was an actual cop. This recent exchange between Zephyr and Cat makes both of them more suspicious in my eyes too (it looks like scum talking to scum).

While, I'm new and you're an I.C. Ree, I disagree with our lack of stuff to go off of. We have lines of inquiry on Rob, Kuro, Hawk, you, and most recently Cub. We can (or you guys can if I die) question insanity and get things going on him day 2 if you/we want. I just hope you guys can come up with a better reason than "I don't like his playstyle, boohoo."

With that said,

/Vote Catlord

Why? Because I sympathize. It's unfortunate, but some of us are a little more obsessive than others. Good luck with your exams!

See you later, Space Cat.

[Remembrance]

It's okay, I suspected this move would raise suspicion. High time I got questioned anyway.

Just remember, Rob, projection. You don't know how or why I can sympathize with Cat. So take yourself out of my shoes and think logically about it. You might make a good guess

[Remembrance]

You probably just spared me, now that I think of it. Thanks Rob. I look forward to discussing my actions day 2. Just get ready for some awkward truth telling.

[Remembrance]

I just executed an innocent man and now my buddy is dead. This sucks.

[Remembrance]

At first, I was thinking of arguing why I must be town. However, I think I'm going to be a bit more...neutral this time and just wait for it to come up before crushing the opposition's argument. That said, I need an adult. Ree, what should I have done? What are some things I should be doing to look for scum? I've read a few Mafia theory threads, and I intend to follow their advice while also remembering to be myself and formulate my own plans. Hopefully, I will not kill an innocent man this round.

I look forward to seeing what everyone thinks about everyone else now that the first round is over.

[Remembrance]

I've already looked, Ree is spotless (In that he has nothing that could point to him as scum). Kuror, slightly less so, but he's pretty low my list.

Rob, why do you think that Hawk is not scum just because he protected cat so much? Cat wasn't that dangerous, from a gameplay perspective. He didn't have much time, his reads were somewhat flimsy, and he could barely defend himself. Scum want guys like him around because it's unlikely they could form a convincing argument to get themselves off a lynch late game or convince others to lynch a positive scum read.

[Remembrance]

Er, Rob. Hawk was the first player to support lynching Cat after your case. If he was "going against the grain" then why didn't he stay convinced Cat was not scum? He has the excuse of time, I'll give him that, but I'm not so sure Hawk is as town as you're saying.

[Remembrance]

Sorry, the second person to be convinced.

Also, Grats on winning the other game CUb I'll try to win so you can get another!

[Remembrance]

In case you're unaware, no lynches are incredibly anti-town]

I knew, that was one of the reason's I lynched Cat. I've been reading mafia theory.

[Remembrance]

Zephyr, I'm trying to be calm and polite when I say this, but why would you validate another role. Why would you confirm what the other power role was to the scum? What benefit does town get by knowing we have a jail keeper. -_-

[Remembrance]

The only reasonable thing I can think of right now, the only answer that makes any sort of sense,

"I need to tell my scum buddy they have a Jail keeper! GOGOGOGOGOGO"

Regardless,

/Vote MrZephyr

I might change my mind, If a good explanation can be given since I just hanged an innocent player.

[Remembrance]

Tell me how my logic is poor, ProHawk. Tell me why Zephyr giving away another Town's power role is good for town. He didn't have to say anything, he could've said something fantastically stupid, like, "I investigated Cub, he was innocent." instead of doing that.

[Remembrance]

Nope. My arguments aren't dumb, you just made a mistake Zephyr. You gave away a power role of towns. You can't say that wasn't, at best a mistake.

Also, seriously, I have been following other leads. I was tunelling you because I had nothing better day 1. Today, however, I have more information and am observing their actions.

Getting angry is just a tactic to get someone off your case. I'm used to people getting angry and defensive regardless of whether they're guilty or not. For now I keep my vote where it is.

[Remembrance]

There were other ways to do it, Hawk.

Oh well.

/Unvote MrZephyr

Still, I really do want to understand why anyone would Jail keep Zephyr. It's strange, because he's pretty useless if he can't hunt. In reverse, giving out that there was a jail keep is anti-town in my books. Being truthful is well and good, but I don't give out all my reads or information for a reason. If someone's under suspicion, do I tell them what I'm looking for? No, because if I did, they wouldn't do it.

[Remembrance]

I know, they were the two I was investigating.

[Remembrance]

I'm glad, we think alike

[Remembrance]

Wow, Hawk. I'm going to ask this question again.

"If you want me to point out everything I have done and accomplished in the game I could make a whole super-long post about it, but there wouldn't be a point to it."

"Not a bad idea, could you summarize it while I wait for Ree to post and Rob to catch up?"

Not asking for science this time Hawk. Give this information to me. Or your heavy scum.

[Remembrance]

*you're*

[Remembrance]

My notes on you and Robduring the last 3 days for your enjoyment Hawk:

Ahem*
"Rob-scum?" Used weak reasoning. Acted strangely after lynch. Distanced from Zephyr. Used Wifom. Accused me of being less town because of posting style. Focused on words, not intentions.

Scummy-Hawk: voted, then explained afterword. Asks questions and sometimes plays interference. Can be wildly defensive. Carefuly posting style. Asked to know Zephyr's read day 2, suspicious.

[Remembrance]

There's a bit more, but it has already been stated by other players in thread.

These, by the way, are scum tells from players on Mafia theory. They aren't my opinion, but the opinion of older, experienced players.

[Remembrance]

Since you're not responding to me,

/Vote ProHawk

[Remembrance]

Because a Cop usually makes the scum talk to link him to his scum buddy. I read it in a thread. Asking about it off the bat robs town of information.

[Remembrance]

Also, my WIFOM on Hawk actually holds. Cat is a convenient player to have around. If I were scum, I would keep Cat alive, and try to lynch someone else, probably Kuro. Since he's able to get people lynched with his narratives. Note, who Hawk wanted dead.

[Remembrance]

Point, but you're assuming that he can't get information just because he's already claimed cop and that a scum wouldn't want to know first thing what his reads were to know if he was still in the game. It is somewhat circumstantial though.

Zephyr, you have anything to say? You're just sitting in the lobby.

[Remembrance]

The "buddying" being done was not mentioned until the last moment. This is a defensive counter-measure, not a legitimate scum read. The reason he's not willing to give up his notes, is because he doesn't have any relating to who's scum or not. I was able to write quite a few of my notes in a second, but he just outright refused to release any of them. If he was town, he would have put in the effort.

Gunna relax on posting now. See what sticks. Ask questions if you want Insanity. It might take me a bit to respond to, I have some work to do.

[Remembrance]

You don't have notes, and you're using reaction tests as a form of scum hunting?

[Remembrance]

If you hadn't noticed, you don't make good cases against players. You ask questions. When asking questions you are looking for responses. If you don't know what you're looking for in a response then, you can't single it out as evidence and the action is ineffectual. The fact you're relying on your memory for reaction tests, which are heavily reliant on note taking implies (unless you have a hard core memory) you've been rereading the thread, A lot. I could quote a particular piece about scum tending to re-read threads more to protect themselves, but as an SE, I'm sure you're aware of it.

There are 25 pages or 26 now. Relying on your memory for all that information is simply ineffectual. More likely, you just don't have enough time to rephrase your notes in the time given.

[Remembrance]

Let's see. V/La until tuesday. Hawk almost broke his neck unvoting Kuror, quick builds case against Ree. Using voting patterns similar to pattern of action used against Cat, who turned up town. Yup. Furthermore, this case relies on someone being scum flipped who was on the Wagon. In conclusion. Your argument is invalid. We just killed someone for a similarly, scummy voting pattern. I want something better.

Note too, these are both OMGUS votes Insanity, Kuro. But you guys know that.

[Remembrance]

Oh, by the way, Scum have three days to talk and make plans with each other. This sure is convenient.

[Remembrance]

If one scum is off the wagon. Then that implies a player was on the wagon. Since no one has been scum flipped who was on the wagon, there's no argument. Last argument killed town using these results. I'm going to make this response short to the question of me not hammering Cat with 0.01 seconds to go. Here, I'll quote this back for you, "Kuror, why did you ask for an extension,"

[Remembrance]

I wouldn't take this bet to the casino. Rob used your meta to defend you. Yet you're now intentionally ignoring Ree's. And if you think it's ironic that I lynched him with less than two days to go, well, you're stretching that one pretty thin.

Worse, he just said he's V/LA you're getting nothing new from him, yet there you are, ultra prepared and ready to go lynch the guy. Now who's rushing?

[Remembrance]

"Keep in mind that differences in play-style aren't scummy. You're not looking for one action or play style that only scum performs. Many actions (all?) could be performed by both town and scum under the right circumstances. You're looking for motivations. You're looking for whether the actions someone is taking are town motivated or scum motivated in the context of the situation and everything that is going on. Being able to properly evaluate those comes with time."

Note, that I'm aware of play style discrimination. I've mentioned it 2-3 times when defending insanity.

Rob, let me you ask a question. Is there a reason, a pro-town reason for Zephyr to have given away that we have a jailor? Is there a reason for Hawk to defend him? Is there a reason Hawk had a whole post ready to convince people to lynch Ree, while feigning to go for Kuro? Except for opportunism?

If you can answer these questions, I will take a 3rd look at Ree's posts.

[Remembrance]

If you can't get anything new from him, then that means you're prepared to lynch him, here and now.

[Remembrance]

My brain just exploded.

[Remembrance]

Ah well. I'm too new at this, I guess I just don't have the necessary charisma/posting style. Still, I have to try to win this, for Cub and Cat.

Here insanity,

Why I can't be scum,

Read post #527 and #529. I can provide other examples that point to things that cannot make me scum this game.

[Remembrance]

Which I would know, if I received a post as scum.

[Remembrance]

Also, you might want to re-post that vote as "insanity," Mod might not accept it.

[Remembrance]

Sure

1. Ree casts himself as scummy to build a wagon.
2. Lo, and behold.

[Remembrance]

You just want him dead before he returns so he can't turn in his reads. That's really all I can say on this matter at this point. One of those that just voted on him is town. If you're town, unvote. Before we get him killed a few hours into day 2.

[Remembrance]

I've followed another game of his. They won that game btw. He crushed his wagon so fast it was beautiful.

[Remembrance]

Micro 11, I...Don't know how to link

[Remembrance]

3. Is very true, and I feel bad for using it. Rob. My apologies. I try to do better than using leading questions.

That said, in the midst of my post, I was writing a suggestion for how Zephyr could have played it, I'll rewrite it. "I can't tell you my result, there's a good reason for that, I promise. In the mean time I will now try to build a better case against Kuro." I can come up with a few more ways to deal with this Rob, it's not very hard. If he got pressed, he could have revealed why he kept the information hidden, I would have accepted that reason.

[Remembrance]

Cool! With that said, I doubt Kuro's going to kill ree. So you guys are going nowhere unless you can build a better case...against an absent sick person.

See you guys, I'll post tomorrow night.

[Remembrance]

Second, when looking at bad wagons (town-wagons), Mr_Ree was on two for sure - possibly even three bad wagons.

Cub, Hawk, and Zephyr.

Sorry for doing a post and run, but not a lot of time.

1. As noted by Insanity, Cub is an invalid argument.
2. How was Zephyr a bad wagon? he was acting like a bizarro starfish (he still is, but after reviewing his meta, at least I know it's not intentional).
3. Putting yourself on there is just poor taste, and means absolutely nothing.

Be back tonight.

[Remembrance]

Intentionally acting scummy is not an excuse for acting scummy because it's impossible to determine whether it was truly intentional. If anyone claims to do this EVER, you policy lynch them immediately. Burn it with fire.

1 Word sir, Thor.

Oh my god, what is happening. So now we're at L-1 for Hawk.

Anyway, Hawk all I meant with putting yourself in as evidence is that it's not really the nature of the game. Anything that has the words "I'm not scum," Or "I'm town" is inherently worthless in an online play session. I can't see your face here. I imagine if I played this game in real life, I couldn't keep a straight face if I were scum. But here, the words are hot air. I don't need much of an imagination to guess the number of times scum have said the equivalent of what you just said about being town.

Also, I'm disinclined to recognize voting patterns right now. I mean look at my voting pattern.
1 Zephyr
5 Cat
1 Zephyr
1 Hawk

Notice how I always vote first or last? Isn't that scummy, it's a pattern! If we had lynched Zephyr, your criticism of Ree standing on the side lines breaks. He couldn't have known Zephyr would claim Cop.

[Remembrance]

Asking questions because I don't want to kill scum.

Hawk: Why did you have that whole thing prepared to lynch Ree, when you voted Kuro? Where did that come from? I want to understand your mind set here.

Ree: You said you were going to be V/La till tuesday, are you actually sick? Don't play with my sympathies sir!

[Remembrance]

This directly contradicts what you told Insanity about "spending a lot of time on this game." It never occurred to you to think about your reads until the game came back up?

[Remembrance]

Heck, you were a neutral read until I looked and compared your posts with Kuro's in ISO after I hammered Cat.
Rob was pure Town because I personality profiled The Godfather as an extrovert (therefore always seeking new experiences), but after looking at his (Rob's) Meta, I realize he just plays that way regardless if he's scum or not. so I just chalked that one up to "unsubstantiated."

I find it strange that your reads didn't change in 3 days. Maybe not impossible, but strange.

[Remembrance]

The days after Cat died.

[Remembrance]

That kinda goes against what I've learned in psychology.

Also, put simply means to place. It has no time order. For example, "he put his hat down." would imply he did it right then and there. It's not necessarily past tense. But that's...really irrelevant to this discussion and not a scum tell.

[Remembrance]

I don't really feel he's town. I just know there is zero evidence against him. As in, I've read all his posts. and there's nothing scummy about them. The only thing that has come off scummy from him, is his request to keep Zephyr locked up. That can be better spent else where. Theory has nothing on him. It has quite a lot to say about you and Rob though. (As well as Zephyr, actually, way too much on Zephyr. Scary, it's like he's scum personified).


1. Look, all I want is circumstances to go with the vote pattern. I don't want twisted results like Hawk and Rob gave.

If you turn up town and I will probably just quote what Ree said back to him, then vote him. (Two dead Town members on my hands is going to to hurt so bad).

Post 266# in this game, Hawk. Micro 11. There's your link. It is his meta. I understand your argument that people's play style change. In fact, one of the scum tells is a player being unable to adjust outside of their meta.

@Ree: Based on scum theory, the 3rd is the most scummy. But sometimes Scum will go #2 to get things going (Rob).
@Rob: Policy lynching scummy players sort of contradicts your earlier advice and I am not confused. Clarify.

Unrelated newbie player question: The person is asking not the player. How can you link to other games? I feel technically inept right now, and it's annoying not being able to provide evidence.

if I didn't answer your question, Hawk. Please go on and tell me "You didn't answer my question." And I will create giant wall, of what I think.

[Remembrance]

Asking questions because I don't want to kill scum.

wut?

[Remembrance]

Thanks Hawk, you're a true friend. Now read my appeal to pity. Is no scum going to bite? Will no scum step forward? No one wants to vote themselves for my amus- tattered soul to find redemption for killing an innocent man?

I told him it was selfish. Read my post in reply. That's not a scum read though, it just pretty much says "Yup, I'm an experienced and therefore difficult person to beat in this game." Which is normal, given he's the I.C.

[Remembrance]

You've admitted to being scummy Zephyr. You admitted it in your introduction post in the general forum, this might be a misquote but it went something like, "I tend to get lynched early because I act scummy, that's just how I am." I wish I had read that earlier. It would have made me less quick to judge. But then again, League of legends posts. Could not. Read. All. Of. It.

[Remembrance]

Could you actually point to a particular contradiction? I have a thing against contradictions, because people can control others actions by asking them to conform to previous stances(recall). That's sort of scummy, Hawk. In all honesty, (in all honesty? have you been lying to me?) You might want to build a case on me before you try this subtle stuff. It confuses me.

[Remembrance]

I'm saying that your wording was poor. In all honesty.

[Remembrance]

Hey, I didn't put the scum tell there Prohawk. Someone else did.

[Remembrance]

Thanks! You're a somebody!

[Remembrance]

You can't use wagon theory to lynch cat and then say "that stuff is outdated" Rob, that makes me feel old. Oh and it's a contradiction, but you knew that.

[Remembrance]

You're asking me to do calculus before learning algebra Rob, that's not very I.C. of you.

Will respond to your argument for Cat's in 4-5 hours. Feel free to ask me about it if I forget.

[Remembrance]

I had a terrible feeling that was the case. *sigh* I'm two for two at outing power roles now. I am a genius.

/unvote Prohawk

Sorry Hawk.

[Remembrance]

Oh, and I'm not lynching Ree. Your arguments still don't make sense. Count it as a point against your style of play if you want. I was listening, I was reading your arguments. In general, your argument is based on the premise that sitting on the sidelines is scummy. Everything else is circumstantial hoohah.

Also, I'm canceling my take down of your arguments against Cat, Rob. I need to rethink how I'm playing and why I suck, not why other people suck.

For now I will put my reads up because that is a thing people do:

Town: Insanity, Kuro.

Neutral: Ree, Rob. Hawk. Zephyr.

Scum: [Nobody until I figure out why I suck, maybe put me here. I'm so good at hunting down power roles, I wish I was scum. So I didn't have egg all over my face]

.

[Remembrance]

Hawk, I have considered your argument. If you don't believe me then that's up to your discretion. Maybe Rob will add to your evidence. Maybe we do have Ree-Kuro scum team. I can't tell. I'm pretty much realizing that players dump scum tells on themselves and that apparently none of them work. Rob may be right, in that scum tells are worthless. But then, so are your arguments against Ree.

[Remembrance]

Your arguments from what I understand them to be.

1. He sat on the bench at the last minute. Not shy with vote early (Called RVS? I think).
2. Players that are scum in newbie games usually have one scum on, one scum off the wagon.
3. Three players, Ree supported lynching, most likely all of them are town.
4. Ree staunchly defended Cat at the end of the day.

I had a wall here. Then I decided to delete it.

Refutations:
1. RVS. Day 1.
2. Rob mentioned how Scum intentionally mess with player expectations. There's a possibility that both are off or that both were on the wagon.
3. The probability of me uncovering two power roles is lower than the probability of a town suspecting 4 Town members. That is to say, it's not unlikely.
4. This could be a scum tell, yes.

Still, I will question Ree. You're right, next time I will make a list to summarize people's arguments. Before I become unconvinced of their authenticity. Next time, I'm going to practice Rogerian argument. If I survive to day 3.

[Remembrance]

I...Refuse to believe that an I.C. introduction post is scummy. I don't care how much of a newbie I am. Trying to read the rest of it, but it just I can't see into your perspective on this Rob. can you summarize your points. Thanks.

@Kuro: Bye Kuro. I'll think about it.

[Remembrance]

Because they're designed to be welcoming. He wouldn't be much of an I.C. If his introductory post discouraged questions. It's inherently a "Hey there, this is a game. You can play it here." It's so the community doesn't become isolated and unwelcoming to new visitors.

[Remembrance]

Some online communities handle new members much in the same way a mother welcomes rats into her house: with pesticide.

[Remembrance]

This hurts website revenue. If traffic falls, then good advertisers won't pay to advertise on their site. Tee-shirts only help so much. A lot of advertisements are pay per click too, so they need new people to come around. Mr. Ree's opening post is simply one part of a large set up that keeps the place open.

[Remembrance]

I did read your wall. I didn't understand your perspective.

Deductive reasoning time:

All I.C. initially buddy on their opening post.
Ree is an I.C.
Ree buddys on initial posts.

the rest of your stuff is valid(ish). As a narrative.

I wasn't here when the game started, so he couldn't have stroked my ego. Except in the case he somehow knew my reads.Not impossible given how I asked you why hawk wasn't scummy because he defended Cat.

[Remembrance]

Hi Ree, please build an actual case against Kuro before voting and or cutting him loose. Or at least, give some sort of reasoning other than process of elimination. That was scum theory, scum tell (which is quickly turning out to be worthless(ish).

[Remembrance]

Scum tell hit list on Ree:

1. Told the jailor what to do with Zephyr.
2. Courted brownie points by defending Cat (invalidish).
3. Used process of elimination (Yeah, I don't know either).
4. Lurky(ish).
5. Faked a V/La. a.k.a lying.
6. Possibly played a 1/off 1/on scum wagon game.
7. Possible buddying, which I sort of disagree on. The idea of buddying as a scum tell in the first place seems somewhat invalid. This game is one where you have to court votes. Logos is only one side of the spectrum.

I think that's it. Some of those are mine, some of those are other players.

[Remembrance]

What a twist.
Explain.

[Remembrance]

Okay. I think now is a good time to do one of those claim things I've read about. How do those go Rob? Let's do that. That way we can confirm who's town and who isn't. I know it might be pointless, but I think it can save us unnecessary problems later down the line.

[Remembrance]

I have no objections. Since I was the one that asked for it.

[Remembrance]

Guys, let's add a twist to this. For every claim, the person has to give a scum tell. Pretty please with a cherry on top.

[Remembrance]

Do you have any objections to a mass claim Ree? I want to get it out of the way first.

[Remembrance]

It's popcorn Ree, and you forgot to give a scum tell.

[Remembrance]

Townie.

[Remembrance]

I can't believe you asked me that Rob. I'm hurt.

[Remembrance]

Also, it's a newbie game. I'm trying to learn. Adding scum tells such as "Going to re-read the thread 34x" is a learning experience.

Insanity. Claim.

[Remembrance]

Asked me if I was town. You just gave someone else an opportunity for wiggle room. I should've been last (Before Kuro).

[Remembrance]

Sure. I'll give a hypothesis. Ree wants a 1vs1 because he wants to go out with a bang. He wants an epic duel the likes of which, this board has never seen. There will be graphs, there will be power points, there WILL be raised eyebrows and gasps. No man will escape unscathed because TONIGHT Ree AND Rob are going, TO RUMBLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

[Remembrance]

Fair enough Zephyr. I will give you a few metaphorical meta bones.

1. Rob is scum, more often than the average.
2. Why is Rob scum so much?
3. Discuss.

[Remembrance]

Why do you keep bolding stuff wrong?

[Remembrance]

The only thing I have on Insanity is that he's playing coordinated. He's playing like he's in a duet.

That's my "Gut" or my own play style or whatever you called it Rob. I don't like my gut though. I've pretty much suspected everyone at one point or another. So I can't be wrong!

[Remembrance]

Yeah I know Hawk, that's another thing that makes me suspect Rob. It's the kind of thing he'd do.

[Remembrance]

Yeah, I know that. It's just I can recall a game where Rob got a good kill in the first round. His first I think. Dunno about Ree though. It could be. I'm just confused at this point. You're now confirmed Town though, Hawk. Unless Kuro was the jail keeper all this time.

I have a question. If a Jail keeper protects Zephyr, but the Jail keeper is killed. Does Zephyr get to investigate?

[Remembrance]

I hope you're working on that Case Ree. I'll be really sad if you go out quietly. I already sold tickets.

[Remembrance]

Just dug through Insanities vote record:

1
1
3
2
4
3
3

This might explain Rob's subtle defense of Insanity. Not much to go off of though.

[Remembrance]

Thanks, special.
Hawk. It just occurred to me that the chances of your death are practically 100% You're a dead man walking.

Reasoning: Scum want to prevent a situation where they get jailed in Lylo. Thus, they will kill the jailor. There's no reason to jail Zephyr this round. Your only hope is to correctly guess who the killer is.

1.You need to think about who to jail, Hawk.
2. You need to think about who you're going to investigate Zephyr. You'll only get one shot, unless Hawk gets lucky.

Maybe you guys knew that already, but I'm working my newbie brain here.

[Remembrance]

This game is bleeding into real life. there was a IRL murder 3 doors down from my apt yesterday. Vla till things get sorted.

Wow, sorry to hear that. Glad you weren't hurt.

Gunna think about who I want to pursue.

Right now, I'm leaning Rob and Insanity. It would just be wrong if there wasn't a newbie in the scum team. It wouldn't be very educational.

I need to think what questions I want to ask.... Okay one question for Rob13 below. While waiting for Kuro to get back from his trip.

1. Why did you suspect me when I killed Catlord? To me it sounded like you knew Cat would turn up town and were working on shifting suspicion.

[Remembrance]

Prohawk the problem with your idea is that if you announce who you jail, then the scum can just decide not to kill anyone to do a frame job. Also,

One of you must send the moderator

a PM with your choice of who to kill and who is performing the kill before the Night deadline.

If you say who, then the scum can just send the other guy to do the kill. It's ineffectual at stopping them; you have to hope they decide to perform the kill with the person you selected. Or else you won't block them.

That might be a good idea. Going into LyLo with a confirmed townie would be extremely useful.

Rob13 just earned 1 scum point. Good job, Hawk.

[Remembrance]

How sure are you about this Hawk?

[Remembrance]

Because Rob constantly sounds more confident than he has any right to be. I understand confidence is essential to get people behind you on a lynch, but it doesn't change the fact this is a game of probability. Rob just landed a serious, objective scum tell. He's a pre-IC, the fact he didn't know that rule says something serious. It sends off warning bells.

[Remembrance]

Actually, I just post flippantly when people are near death. It's supposed to be dramatic irony. I guess it didn't come off that way.

[Remembrance]

Well, I just thought about it. I have a game plan. I do not expect you guys to agree with this, you're all way more experienced than I am and therefore have more efficient means of operating than I do. But, as newbie town I think it important for me to flex my muscles. See where it takes me.

Why Rob Is Scum

1. Rob is competent scum. If you disagree, please check his meta.

2. Scum theory: Scum play as town. Their advantage is that they can do actions that benefit scum to give them an advantage

3. They weigh the dangers of making such moves and are careful not to arouse suspicion, they will only move when the benefits outweigh the cost

4. This move by Rob was one such move. If Hawk announces who he will jail keep, then he and his partner are covered and gain an additional advantage. The only cost is minor and any suspicion can be waved off as paranoia or ignorance of the rules

4b. The benefit: They will know who will be jailed and can tell the other member to kill, therefore guaranteeing themselves a safe slot into Lylo(If Hawk chooses one of them) AND a kill

5. Calculated inaction. Rob13 saw my accusation and said nothing. He will deny this. He was not sure how to respond to the accusation made by me and so choose to ignore it.

5b.We already know he previews his posts.

Game Plan

1. Lynch Rob
2. Jail Insanity.
3. Investigate Kuro.

Branch A [No deaths]
1.The day starts fresh, no one died.
2. /nolynch
3. Jail Insanity
4. Investigate Insanity

Branch B [ProHawk is killed]
1. If Kuro is innocent, It is either Ree or Insanity.
2. Lynch one, investigate the other.

I'm sorry ProHawk. I want to buddy you here, but I'm sort of a jerk, I guess.
Going to bed, will say hello in the morning. Oh, and /Vote Rob13

[Remembrance]

Sorry, made a mistake in branch B. If Prohawk dies and Kuro is innocent, than Ree is 100% guilty.

[Remembrance]

Actually, I may be a genius.

In branch B.
1. If Kuro is innocent and Prohawk dies. Then it has to be Ree.
2. If Kuro is guilty and ProHawk dies. Then Ree is his scum buddy.
I just realized. We won the game. Wow, I am awesome. Give me a clap on the shoulder. I deserve one.

[Remembrance]

To summarize:
1. Kuro Innocent, Insanity Jailed -> Prohawk death -> Ree
2. Kuro Guilty, Insanity jailed -> Prohawk death -> Ree
3. Kuro Innocent -> No town death -> /nolynch to victory.

The only way this doesn't work is if I'm scum or Zephyr lied.

[Remembrance]

No, see that's the beauty in it. It only takes two turns to win. If Hawk dies then its Ree by default. Here,

Rob town ->
1. Day 3: Insanity(town), Kuro (guilty) Ree (Scum), Remembrance (Town), Zephyr. Win.

Rob Scum ->
1. Ree Scum or Insanity Scum. Win.2.

Worst case scenario: Rob Town, Hawk dies, Kuro Innocent.

Day 3: Insanity (Scum) Kuro (Town), Ree(scum), Remembrance (town), Zephyr(Town).
Day 4: Kuro/Remembrance/Insanity(scum)

The only way we lose is if I'm scum. Anyone want to come to the batter cage with that?

[Remembrance]

Oh, but it's bed time. Sorry Insanity. We'll talk about this model later. Post a refutation if you'd like. See, where I'm wrong.

[Remembrance]

I feel that this game is over. Let me explain the last few bits.

1. Hawk is confirmed Town.
2. Zephyr lying is statistically unlikely.
3. No scum would do what I just did. Because, if we accept the premises, then the best thing for scum to do would be to kill Zephyr, which saves our JK.
4. Any vanilla town that argues against this model is, by default. Anti-town. Since it is the most probable way to win. (feel free to examine it, be impressed)
5. I have not been voted against since I joined this game. Not Once.
6. Read post in response to Insanity about being innocent. Just put me in Iso, and you'll find a question that makes it impossible for me to be scum. Unless, I planted that...That would be well, that would be awesome. But that's crazy, and I'm not that good. I wish I was that good.

I think we're done here. Don't be mean guys. Do the right thing. For

Cub and Cat

Also, I hope this model holds up and I didn't just embarrass myself.

I leave you with this question:

Are you willing to put your faith in... A STUPID NEWBIE?

(Oh man, I can't sleep).

[Remembrance]

I'm never going to post this late again...I realize it's dangerous. Please ignore everything I just said, except the first bit(Rob vote post). Sorry, for the 4 posts in a row, Good night.

[Remembrance]

*shrug* that fell pretty flat. In retrospect. My bad. I was way too tired when posting that. That said, still keeping vote where it is. To me, that was pretty much a scum tell. I did not have to reach across the aisle to see where you were coming from to make that assessment of your actions. It's not about "you playing scum" it's about the fact that only a scum benefits from the action, objectively. That was one of the few times I didn't have to tunnel or reach. And yes, I recognize how that makes me look since I had a "gameplan" where I told people how to vote, in reality I should have kept my mouth shut and just let Hawk get killed so we would've auto-won.

@ Zephyr sure enough, the model actually fails if anyone but Hawk dies. It would be more preferable for Pro to live then for Hawk to live.
So the model fails when holding to scrutiny and I did just embarrass myself.

That said, chainsaw defense? seriously? Here,

Stallin' Defense

The general form of the Stallin' Defense is "a player who attempts to stall a major wagon or a lynch, especially by calling for additional discussion, and especially on a wagon that led or will clearly lead to a lynch, is very probably scum".

EDIT: Further investigation has indicated to Tarhalindur that this is a null tell and should not be trusted. the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell.

Null-tell sir, null tell. And like I said, I really want a defense of that gameplay question I had. If no one tries to reveal how that question was faked. Then I consider it valid evidence.

[Remembrance]

And no, Insanity's argument did not work. It implies I have not read the message, something that is at best, reaching for the moon and back again.

[Remembrance]

Actually Zephyr, if you don't die, you're probably scum (If Ree turns up town). Since we auto win, if you survive another day.

While I hate creating false dilemmas, my accusation is one. All I have to do is change my premise to "Rob is competent." As competent town, he wouldn't have told Hawk to do that. As Competent scum he would've told Hawk to do that. The other possible explanation are: He didn't know (ad hominem).

@ Hawk, you're right. That if Ree turns up scum, then it would be optimal for you to announce who you will jail, but only in twilight should you do that.

@Zephyr: The no lynches thing, the only scenario where I said it would be optimal to no lynch is if Insanity is jailed and no kills occur. The /nolynch thing is to make sure it isn't a frame up job. I'm not sure if you can no lynch indefinitely, but the basic idea behind that play is that we could investigate everyone else, then kill Insanity (since no kills would occur each /no lynch day as long as Insanity is trapped). It's just a "there's only one way to be sure" thing.

[Remembrance]

YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD SOLVE EVERYONE'S PROBLEMS?
If we stopped theorycrafting night actions and tried to find scum the normal way instead.

Okay, that's fair. I didn't know whether theory crafting was appropriate or not. I'll keep this stuff to myself from now on.
Questions:
@Insanity, Town read on Rob: Why? (yes, I know it's obvious to you, but obviously, it's not obvious to me).
@Rob, only question I have right now is my primary accusation. Answer when you have time.

@Everyone: Explanation for overzealous defense of Ree. In general, you probably know why I defended Ree so much. But to explain myself clearly, I defended him because Hawk's argument was an axe strike to the throat. You were right when you said you came off too strong Hawk, you did and I panicked and tried to control the situation. I just don't agree with lynching someone day 2 within minutes without a cop saying "guilty" regardless of what kind of argument it is. Basic scum tells were just not enough for me. Unless they come in bunches.

@anyone, can I use outside game (general thread/mafia thread) information to question players? For example, in the mafia scum hunting thread you said "...." Why is that? I know I'm not supposed to cite on going games, but what about ongoing threads? Thanks.

[Remembrance]

Thank you, you remind me of Alfred from batman at this point. (Except, I'm no batman ).

Since that's settled:

@Ree, in the mafia scum winrate thread, you were criticized a lot for your playstyle. With many declaring they would policy lynch you. Given your present circumstances, do you regret not taking their advice?

[Remembrance]

I'll ask the question simply: Why did you agree with Hawk about posting his night actions. That's all I want to know.

[Remembrance]

Good enough for me, for now. I'll be questioning people until Kuro gets back.

/Unvote Rob13

[Remembrance]

The reason I asked Ree that question Rob, is because I don't use questions the same way you and Hawk do. I write down what I'm looking for in their response. It makes things easier to digest and understand.

Traps set for your question:
1. Time. How long did it take him to answer that question?
2. Will he dismiss it as a pointless question?
3. Did he reread the thread to respond to make sure he understood the question?
4. Will he respond that he didn't know?

I think you can see what the implications of these anwsers are Rob.
1. If it took you too long, I would have supposed you were scum, as a town would instantly respond with their actual reason.
2. Anti-town, refusing questioning that is legitimate hinders town's ability to hunt scum (if no one responds, then how are we supposed to win?)
3. How careful was he in responding? A careful response would indicate scum, as that's their game after all.
4. You didn't, but I would chalk that up as unusual.

You actually failed 2. But since this is the internet, there's no way to know if you saw my response 1 minute after you made those 2 posts. So I have to chalk that up to imagination. Thus, 1/4. Innocentish.

[Remembrance]

Yeah, I recognize that. I thought there was a good chance that you would exit the thread, see my post and respond immediately. Hence why you weren't marked off for it. There's no way to be sure

You got marked off for responding with an effort post. Your response was not haphazard and markedly different than every other response you've made in this game so far. Even your analysis of all my points against Zephyr was written in a consistent style, that stayed consistent until just now. It was a relatively fair evaluation, for me anyway.

[Remembrance]

Following up with some questions of my own:

1. Why does it have to be Rob? Why not Insanity or Kuro?
2. Insanity has taken on the role of "critical paper evaluation guy" except, he hasn't evaluated Rob's arguments.
3. Not very active(gave an excuse, yes).
4. Been hitting that beetle juice tell, quite hard, for a while now.

[Remembrance]

Zephyr, can you clarify your questions for Insanity? You said you had questions to ask, but you've gotten sidetracked.

[Remembrance]

Rob, do you have any questions for Insanity?

[Remembrance]

Yeah, I can see how we'd be about even. Thanks for that evaluation of his play. So, you're just gunna sit on Ree then until he suffocates? Okay.

[Remembrance]

Preview edit: Yeah Rob13, I can do basic process of elimination, I was already writing out your reads for you. It was going to be a joke post. But then you replied too fast

[Remembrance]

I'm glad you've put some thought into this Rob. You've worked hard to discover Kuro as scum. By basic process of elimination you've outed the fellow. Now all you have to do is create a narrative that fits and we'll win this.

[Remembrance]

I'm so excited! I can't contain it! Good job Hawk! Good Job Rob! Best buddies forever! We sure made a great team didn't we? Heck yeah!

Let Ree respond before making the assertion he's ignoring your arguments, if you had read his posts you'd have realized he's not done yet.

[Remembrance]

Do you always do that Rob13? Because at this point, every time I've ever done anything you "reevaluate your reads" on me. It's just tiresome at this point. The first time I was like "that was weird sure." But now it just seems that when anyone ever questions you, you're quick to fire back with something as worthless as "my reads changed". You've ignored Insanities existence and only pay attention to me, because I'm actively questioning others. Sorry that I don't think you're auto town. -_-

I did that because if you're town, you're forgetting that there are two scum. Not one. Your lack of investigation into anyone else is troubling to me as town, regardless if you're scum or not. I was actually changing my reads on you and your way of thinking. I was criticising you for not thinking, about anything but lynching Ree.

[Remembrance]

If you're not scum Ree, then Insanity is probably Scum. Other than that, I think Rob's possibly town and Kuro's responses have been VERY naturalistic so far. This game is hard, and almost everyone here is experienced at covering their footsteps. Zephyr is right to complain about Lylo Wifom, because it will really depend on what he has to say and how he's going to legitimize himself and his case for or against another player. I've been thinking about it, but I don't know. Sorry I don't have a more solid plan. I'll probably have one if/when you're lynched.

[Remembrance]

Ree, if you defend yourself adequately, I will not vote you just to please Hawk, nor to make Rob13 feel better. I will do everything I can not to get town lynched. And I will vote my second best guess.

Rob13, you're weird and I don't get you. But in general I don't take this kinda stuff personally. You need to stop OMGUSING and being reactionary to what other people are doing and instead play an offensive game. You're town, not homeland defense. Good night fellows. Better luck in the morning, I hope.

[Remembrance]

It's late so I need to be careful with my posting. I tend to post stupid stuff.

Your evaluation of my style is pretty accurate, and I could make a list of the the slight deviations between Zephyr and Hawk.

The fact that you're returning to the beginning makes me question whether the sorrow and unsurity is actually genuine.

I was in the midst of transition. Even after I put in all that posting effort, I removed my vote after you responded with a valid defense. That's the first time I've done that without the person claiming (with the exception of the hiccup early day 1). Small steps people.

Do I always change my reads? Hell yeah. Everything you say or do (or anyone says and does) is going to make me rethink my read on them. I want to make sure we're lynching scum.

You never asked a single question of Catlord. So I guess, you don't always give people a chance.

Look at how, in #892, his post is specifically directed at Ree. He isn't directing his post at the town. He's directing it at Ree. What? Why?

Uh, because he asked a question? I should have quoted him. I was responding to Ree's "What if I flip town?" question.

Please tell me what you meant by your "second best guess." Who is your "first best" and why are you settling for second?

I meant it's looking bad for Ree, and was implying I would kill him if he did not give a legitimate defense. Second best is Insanity.

Rob from now on I'm going to ask you, before you suspect me again. To read posts #527 and #529. It's evidence, don't ignore the evidence. If you want to suspect me debunk the evidence. Thank you.

[Remembrance]

Uh...what? How is #527 and #529 at all related to anything?

The reason these posts are relevant is because I would have known that I would not receive the number of power roles of the town for this game, if I were scum. Since the message would have contained/not contained them. Is it really that difficult to understand? Insanity got it, his refutation was that I might not have "read" my message.

[Remembrance]

Oh, Insanity has not posted for 2 days. I guess I can ask for a prod now?

Humbly requesting that Insanity change his avatar, I liked his old one more. And that he be prodded with a cattle prod.

[Remembrance]

Because after Hawk, I realized that I can completely misinterpret a person's actions. In retrospect it was obvious that he got defensive of Zephyr because he jailed him. Therefore, the past is important to understanding the context of any game. Each post matters,and that question is ridiculously good evidence, but only if people bother to remember and understand it.

[Remembrance]

Except for the I.C.'s opening post*

[Remembrance]

I love you Rob, my first vote against me in Mafia! Aww yeah baby!

[Remembrance]

What points? You did the same dumb thing I told you not to. Project unto others. You're flat out wrong.

[Remembrance]

Anecdotes? HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA...^25

[Remembrance]

Did you read my post? You weren't going to dig up the evidence so I did. You're lazy Rob13. And your case isn't worthy of a response.

[Remembrance]

Also, that isn't a straw man, you used an anecdote. That's the entirety of your case. An. Anecdote. I've been told about anecdotes a lot. A lot about anecdotes. You hear them in commercials "I lost weight in just 2 days." Try this new drink and "you'll build muscle in no time." During a hot summer's day I was robbed!" don't go out during a hot summer's day. That's the level of your argument against me, a thing you did once, as a gambit.

[Remembrance]

1. Need evidence.
2. Town are the investigators, they have just as much need to remember posts as Scum do.
3. I...Isoed myself to find the post number, unless you think I'm supposed to remember which # my post was, which would be a contradiction of point 2.
4. Too-town argument.
5. The razor, you know the one.
6. False conclusion based off weak premises, some of which you have used to debunk your argument against me.

I didn't even have to try that hard to refute this ROB13.

[Remembrance]

6. * "False conclusion, based off weak premises, some of which you used to debunk my argument against you."

[Remembrance]

Unvote me now, thanks. Unless you have a reason not to.

[Remembrance]

1. Anecdote. Not valid evidence, ask a scientist. ask a teacher.
2. Amish tell, you rejected this as a premise for lynching Zephyr, now you're using it here. Contradiction (found one).
3. No, you have not refuted this as evidence, simply twisted it to suit your needs.
4. # request of evidence of best way to catch scum. Look at Ree. Look at his win-rate. He's better than you are at catching scum and he plays nothing like you.
5. It does, very much so. This part of your argument relies on not taking my evidence at face value, that it must be a gambit and a trick, not a way to protect myself from a mislynch.

6. Thanks for telling me my argument was bad.

Good Hawk, I'm happy. I was worried you were tunneling Ree.

Preview: Gah! you really aren't reading the thread, I already asked for a prod.

[Remembrance]

Why I should be worried? If I get lynched It's not like I'll die in real life. and You guys have another day to go. I wlll not vote myself and I will try to defend myself adequately. I will do what I'm supposed to. If I can't, I will try to build a case against Insanity and try to get him lynched (this is going to earn me L-1).

[Remembrance]

Oh, I stand corrected then Hawk.

[Remembrance]

Sorry for looking back at my own posts to get the posts #, I won't do it next time? *giggle*

[Remembrance]

Well, you like to keep stuff to yourself, I won't even bother asking what you found interesting. Because you won't answer. Lest you find someone trip up while questioning me. Fire away.

How should I present a vote count should I need to do so in my case against Insanity (should I need to)? I don't know how. Since I doubt a series of 1's and 3's are going to look very convincing.

[Remembrance]

1. You refused to answer Ree's question about scum teams (or anything else) in detail, citing motives you would not reveal to catch scum. Rob13, did the same thing "I'm looking for you to do something in your posts." Which was apparently my dramatic irony line when players are near death. (You'll hear one from me too, if I get that close).

I will be evaluating Insanities vote's in my case against him should I need to. I wanted more time, but I have quite a bit on him. But, he's a difficult one, and is really good at breaking down people's arguments, so I wanted something nigh indisputable. For now, I just wanted to question him. So, I'd like to know how to present one without writing it like this:
1. He voted first against _____
2. He voted second against ____
3. Then he voted third against ____
It looks crummy.

[Remembrance]

That's not much of a game plan Hawk. Just ask me questions or repeat particular points you're interested in me defending. Rob's accusations are made to trap me. So I need to argue with that in mind.

[Remembrance]

I wrote that because I wrote a rebuttal without straw-manning. Since that's what he asked, I assumed he would unvote me on the strength of my argument. But instead he argued further, then tried used a framing strategy not unlike, what a politician would do. Even using the word "politician" there was an example of framing, because of the prejudice and distaste toward politicians in western nations.

1. Another example: "It's a clean, quiet, friendly neighborhood where the children can play on the street without fear." This is pretty usual for people working on arguments, we often do it without even realizing it.

To all the other newbies in the game, this is why you always pressure everyone.

The only other newbie in this game, besides me, is Insanity. so "all the other newbies in this game" only means Insanity. This is another example of subconscious defamation, but doesn't fit the situation.

[Remembrance]

Yes, that was what I was looking for and I appreciate you doing that. Thank you very much. I was actually hoping Insanity would vote me after his prod by Rob13 to make it even more incriminating, but it will have to do.

[Remembrance]

Town have no motivation to investigate THEMSELVES. Did town-you entertain the possibility that you were scum and therefore you needed to investigate yourself? Didn't think so.

A leap in logic. To repair, without straw-manning.

1. Town have no reason to read their own posts.
2. Remembrance, read and remembers(pun) his own posts.
3. Ergo, he is scum.

If this is not part of your argument and this is a straw-man please tell me and I will revise thank you.

[Remembrance]

Wow. Okay. This might take a while. But I will be honest.

1. I don't like anecdotes and the fact you used it to support your claim was funny to me.
2. Okay.
3. I'm trying to defend myself. So I don't get mislynched. You used that defense as a basis for lynching me. That's fine.
4. True, I was criticizing that it was the "best way." That was the core of what I was getting at. Data demonstrates that your way of investigation is good, because of the results you said you've had. Here, if I get lynched. It will demonstrate two particular anecdotes (Cat and me) that has been lynched by your methodology and will demonstrate 2 mislynches in a row. Hence, not best.
5. Click on my name. Go to my second post in the newbie queue. The first questions I ever asked had to do with the edit button. Why? Because from other forums I frequent, I tend to write drafts, post them, then edit them. The fact I couldn't do that here did not change my habit of rereading my own writing for errors. In this game i have double posted 2-4 times with a * because I reread my post and noticed an error. That's just how I am, I reread my stuff for mistakes.
5a. Here, this is the actual fallacy you've used here. It's called the third cause fallacy. It means that there might be other causes for the behavior. My behavior has another cause. But you're dead set on this one. And I realize there might be no way to convince you to get your vote off me. That's how sure I am you want me dead.
6. No? I was saying pointing out that what happened to Ree was similar. He said your argument was bad then you made fun of him for doing that. You did the same thing, so I thought it was ironic.

Going to work hard to defend myself now:

1. I read my own posts, not as a defense mechanism, but as an editing tool to catch my mistakes.
2. This isn't good enough for you. I am absolutely sure it is not good enough for you. Thus, I will make an appeal. What can I do to convince you that I am town? Because you're going to have to give me a chance here. Because your logical fallacies: hasty generalizations, third cause fallacy, appeal to probability; appeal to authority, base-rate fallacy, and mind projection fallacy are simply not enough to convince you otherwise.

[Remembrance]

*Ignore the last points of part of point 5a. Because I missed it and can't edit it. -_-

[Remembrance]

It's come up in my head. But never specifically for that reason. For example, "Did that come off annoying?" or "gah, I wrote scum instead of Town there, I know someone's going to comment on it."

[Remembrance]

No. I thought that Scum knew town's power roles off the bat. And that Zephyr claimed because he knew there were no cops. Thus, he could safely claim without risking anything for the initial round. I thought they knew which power roles town had, but did not know who had them. After posting it, and rereading it for errors, I realized its implication.

[Remembrance]

*after being corrected. Kingdom, edit button, etc.

[Remembrance]

Top picks:

1. Insanity (having a seriously bad time building a case against him though, he was very neutral, made few mistakes and his votes did not reflect his neutral and fence sitting stance, since they were pretty much murder votes (votes that put players close to L-1. I consider the first two votes pressure, the third, intent to kill).
2. Don't know. I've, looked at Kuro, Looked at Rob13, looked at everyone but Hawk, (He's picture perfect). I just don't see a second scum right now.

@I noticed it too Ree, (Rob13 getting off) but he'd have to be oblivious to miss that. Or Town, or the opposite of town, WIFOMY.

[Remembrance]

Whelp, stuff happened. It's not very polite for a newcomer to do this, especially after how many replacements this game has already had. I apologize, hope you guys the best, and hope you enjoy the rest of the game.

SomebodySpecial requesting replacement, sorry for bailing like a jerk.

[Remembrance]

Hello everyone, I’m back. Sorry for replacing out like that. I’m completely read up, so you guys (and girl) have no need to wait on my account.
First off, I want to say that I was preparing a pretty big end of game review. While reviewing everything and writing notes on player performances, I pretty much put the pieces together on who the last scum was (I hope). So, who do I think is the last scum? Well…
I’d like to recount a /head desk moment at the beginning of day two.

This translation is courtesy of Remembrance Translations: Translations, You’ll Remember.

begins post#607 onward

Hi I'm the mafia role cop, just checking in to confirm that ProHawk's the JK. Go scum!

gunna go buddy to get some of that sweet, sweet ethos.

Hey, do you think there's enough ethos for the both of us? /vote MrRee

My brain just exploded

Abort! Abort!

Oh shi- *Jumps off the moving wagon*

Do, do you think they noticed?

Hey Sanity, How many town does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

I do not know Rob13, tell me.

6 to hold the ladder 1 to hang himself with the wiring.

LOL!

LOL!

God these guys are

idiots

I know.

*Bites into handkerchief* just thinking about it makes me want to hang myself in shame.

Annnnnnyyywayyy, I’ll be doing this in narrative order as to why I think Rachmarie is scum. I will not be including day 1 information, Insanity did a pretty good job that day and, in general, it’s just not obvious. I want to make this argument post friendly and easy to read. Thus, while I know this is probably annoying, I have not quoted the specific instances. Please feel free to Iso Insanity and Rachmarie for the brought up instances, in fact, I insist.

1. As previously mentioned at the beginning of day 2, the narrative fits for Insanity to be the Mafia role cop who coded out to Rob13 that ProHawk was the town P.R. This explains Rob13’s behavior and explains Insanity’s 180 degree flip vote to Hawk early day 2.

2. Insanity tried to shut both I and Zephyr down when we correctly guessed Rob13 was scum. He interjected both times and not subtly either. He also defended Rob13, saying he: “was one of the most pro-town members” without providing any evidence I might add.

3. Rob13 had Insanity as “Neutral.” scum do this so that they can bus their friend at a moment’s notice and move in for the credibility it brings. He also began to “swing around” near the end of day 2, positioning himself to bus his buddy in lylo if he needed to.

4. When I openly began investigating Insanity, Rob13 started to pressure me. I fully believe he was doing it to simultaneously test the waters for a lynch against me and to hinder my investigation on Insanity.

5. When Rachmarie replaced in, she specifically mentioned “Not having read Insanity’s posts” to avoid the amish tell. That post was not natural. Rob said that being self-aware of what scum is and what’s not scum and acting on this knowledge to drop town tells is a scum tell. I agree, but only if there is other evidence to support it. Rachmarie had read the thread and then made that post. That’s evidence she was aware of the implied meaning behind her post.

6. When Rachmarie hammered Ree, she put her reads up. Two things to note here: 1) Rob13 was dead center in her reads (I hear scum do this a lot). And 2 she read Rob13 as neutral, putting herself in position to bus Rob13 and create a parallel where either (Rob13 or Rachmarie) could lynch the other for town cred.

7. On day 3, Rachmarie was not on the wagon to kill Rob13. Needless to say, she would have jumped on. Nevertheless, the hesitation and wait-and-see approach was there.

8. Mr Ree said she was scum after being killed. Remember, his specialty IS examining wagons. I trust Mr. Ree, his expertise plus win record tell us he’s probably right. He was right about Rob13, why not Rachmarie?

8a. Her meta argument that she has never lynched someone without having them claim regardless of alignment, is flimsy in light of the net evidence against her. Meta, is a weak defense (it’s still a defense though).

9. Rachmarie has presented herself as knowledgeable about Kuro, Rob13, and Elmo. She’s only doing this so that she can conveniently lynch anyone she wants.

10. Day 4 I thought you(Hawk) were fishing scum by accusing Zephyr, like you did when you voted me. While this turned out not to be the case, it still worked as a trap. Rachmarie was cornered scum, by providing her an out; you gave her the opportunity to act. And she immediately went for it by voting for Zephyr.

11. Rachmarie was indeed painting Zephyr. After my “Rob13” experience and watching a few other games, I realized scum try to lock town into getting lynched. Townies are more interested in the truth and tend to ask questions. Rob13, did not ask questions. Rachmarie did not ask investigative questions of Zephyr either. She just voted and basically said, “seems to be the case” because it was convenient.

12. I disagree that scum would not try to kill Zephyr. Zephyr would have announced a guilty verdict (she is scum after all). Once the accusation came in, players (I hope) would Iso Rachmarie and find what I’ve found to be convincing evidence of her guilt. Rachmarie had to kill Zephyr; you’re simply overthinking this Prohawk.

13. Rachmarie called me competent and said I had the right stuff to make a good mafia player. She said this because I was right with my accusations, “gut read,” and game plan day 2. For another example of a scum slip, look at Rob13’s post when discussing meta. Notice he mentioned how meta was effective and after the game he would elaborate? That was in reference to the “Rob13 would night kill cub, it’s the kind of thing he’d do” comment I and Ree made.

14. While, this may be a bit of a cheap shot. I’ll bet Rachmarie is competent. So, I am laying the “burden of proficiency” fallacy on her. If she’s such an experienced scum hunter, and both I and Kuro agree that killing Zephyr is a bad idea. Why’s she so gung-ho about it? Similarly, if Insanity thought Rob13 was town and he suspected Zephyr (who I believe is town), Hawk (Who we know is town), Kuro(who I think is obv. Town), and Me (Who’s ultra newbie-tastic town), and Ree said he was “logical”, why’s he so bad at catching scum? (‘S CUZ HE’S THE SCUM).

15. I respect your cautious play here, Hawk. You’re playing with the worst case scenario in mind. As such, I am willing to negotiate. We do not have to lynch Rachmarie today, we can /no lynch. I will do this under three conditions.

1. I will not accept a lynch of either Zephyr or Kuro. Kuro, because he is obv. Town in my books (this is not buddying, simply an evaluation of his play).
2. You and Zephyr will jail and investigate Rachmarie. No ifs, ands, or buts. You need to trust players you have as a town read. I am town, I think Kuro and Zephyr are town and you’re 100% town. Please trust me; my argument is a good one.
3. If we choose to go this route (or choose to lynch her today), I request that you guys give me time to post before we lynch Rachmarie. I have an alternative request that I’ve been saving, it’s another appeal. It’s less funny, but I think it’s a feel-good way to end the game.

To summarize, I think Rachmarie is scum. What do you guys think?

[Remembrance]

I didn't say the compliment wasn't genuine.

[Remembrance]

I didn't say you hadn't played with those players before.

Don't sell yourself short Rachmarie.

[Remembrance]

I didn't say a meta defense wasn't a defense, just a weak one.

[Remembrance]

Also, the fact you immediately defended yourself instead of loling and wondering how I came to be so wrong is a scum tell.

Rob13, had no sense of humor either.

I call this new scum tell: The tell.

Pedit: Sure thing Rach