Newbie 1429 - N is for Newbie (game over)

[Windblown]

Karnage is the only person I've played with out of the people in this game

he must be scum

Vote: Karnage

[Windblown]

I'm personally taking it as newb. Like someone who wants to enter the community but scared of.someone yelling at them for.making a mistake - I know the feeling. But null, I personally don't factor newness or veteran status into my own thoughts on players.@

[Windblown]

What do(n't) you like about the people you mentioned? Is this game-relevant stuff or just "oh hey you look cool, oh you're not" ?

[Windblown]

From my experiences people new to the game (and therefore RVS) might tend to freak out about having a few votes thrown their way haphazardly, so I don’t see that as too much of a bad thing on Beginner.

I don’t like how Yiley is just taking Nacho’s questions and developing them into his own point on Yiley when I’m pretty sure his vote on Beginner was just RVS.

Wow at Beginner’s wall of text haha. At first reading over it seemed like it was an overreaction to Nacho’s vote on him but he does bring up a good point about scum’s “scumhunting” ultimately being fake and how it correlates to Nacho’s play (though I disagree but w/e). Though I do think the example to epicmafia isn’t as relevant as he wants it to be because of the lack of ranking here.

Bit suspicious of caled too for not saying anything in 1 post (the only thing she talked about was basically what Beginner said to Yiley)

[Windblown]

not sure if I want the champagne or the explanation more

but seriously I don't like people who go all "aha I have found the scum team and I will vote them and you guys should too" and not say anything else

Yiley what are your suspicions? Are they any different than Nacho's?

[Windblown]

Why the unvote? It seemed from your last post on Nacho you still had reasonable suspicion on him.

[Windblown]

Yiley what’s so scummy about Karnage? I don’t think you’ve addressed any of his posts yet you have him as more scum than Beginner whom you’ve at least talked about.

I don’t take it too badly if someone promises a set time but actually delivers later – something might’ve went up. Regardless I do agree that the content he did post at aforementioned later time isn’t quite what I was hoping for when he promised “an individualized read list” – as I said a few lines up I don’t get his scum read on Karnage at all. Or his “null/town” read on Caled when he has people who have contributed more as null or null/scum (Nacho Beginner Bulba)

Unvote

Vote Yiley

Also want to keep an eye on caled when she does put up some content like she promised.

[Windblown]

oh didn't see new posts and therefore his unvote

I think my post still stands though

[Windblown]

Or you could contribute something, Caled, like you said you were.

[Windblown]

So I personally advise to keep an eye out on things like the first two parts of #107 – because while questioning is good to make sure you’re not just going along with what people say, if it gets to the point where you’re answering a question with a question a la

Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead

that Karnage is doing in the middle of 107 I feel it just goes up into smoke really quickly and is just fluff trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

That being said, isn’t the nature of RVS enough to justify a random vote? Or is the why more pointed at the change (iirc, Nacho changed votes from someone to Yiley)

#108 - “more probable that it was a reaction test” – just strikes me funnily. If it’s your own reaction test, wouldn’t you know it was a reaction test and thus say so? Though I agree the self-vote in the long run shouldn’t mean much. Am not sure how to take Bulba’s vote on the “quick to please” reasoning as of yet.

@Beginner – is not laying down an RVS vote that scummy to you?

[Windblown]

Voting people who look to scummy to you is scummy now?

[Windblown]

Beginner is totally freaking out* over this lol

Most of the points are logical but some things, like the end of #135, are bs (I know you’re satirizing Bulba’s quote but still) because Bulba is taking that assumption from the way Yiley acts (unsure of himself, uncertain with votes, showing unfamiliarity with terms) while scumbag shows signs of some experience at least.

Stuff like #136 isn’t townish either – “My argument is flawless and you should see it my way”

Not sure what arbitrary indiscretion means

Things like #145 are also overly aggressive – I don’t want to make people accountable for activity if they have an excuse and if you were to press him like that when he could quite possibly have other stuff going on that he didn’t feel like mentioning (RL > Internet) that’s just over the top imo. If he were to be here posting, but not really contributing, and promising stuff later like Caled is doing, yet still not really contributing, THEN we reach a problem.

Speaking of which, because I have seen caled post here yet see nothing (so much stuff to comment on about Beginner yet she just brings up a clearly sarcastic point [ok sarcasm isn’t the easiest thing over the Internet, but my point stands])…

Unvote
Vote Caled

*freaking out isn’t scummy to me, it’s actually somewhat townish to me because he’s clearly trying to push his case and it doesn’t seem like scum fabricating a case to mislynch. This is mainly gut and just reading tone of posting.

[Windblown]

How is Karnage 'noob town'?

[Windblown]

I was slightly exaggerating about the whole 'freaking out' thing.

I can back Bulba's explanation of how different sites have different metas - the site I'm from is less formal and because we're all a smaller group we can act more relaxed with each other. I can already tell looking at some other games that mafiascum is more 'professional' and some of the players from the site I play mafia on who are also here try to make jokes / lighten the mood but are seen as not adding content or being a hindrance to the goal of scumhunting.

Also don't understand how the most recent content has been just 'WIFOM and non-serious talk' as scumbag said, and if it has, why he didn't do anything to bring it away from it.

[Windblown]

#224 - if they haven't been posting and not prodded/replaced isn't that an error on the mod's part

just want to point out that just because several people have me as Town doesn't mean your townread on me is 'right' Yiley. Just because you're learning doesn't mean you can't think someone is or isn't town. How do you not have much reason for your two scum reads? Even if they're gut that means something you've read should rub you the wrong way.

I agree with 209 btw

Am of the opinion that lots of scumreads doesn't necsesarily = noncommittal. While I do think it's unhealthy someone like Beginner might just have high expectations (and yeah I do think this is true because he's really going after his top scum reads.) Although I don't like how he votes Karnage in one post and then swears he's going to work for a Bulba lynch in the same post.

I noticed that caled hasn't responded to the questions of why she's voting someone for voting someone they find scummy and how that action itself is scummy so I'm very confident in my vote there (not to mention the false promises of content that nacho mentioned)

@GIF what do you think about your predecessor's condemnation of like...the midsection of this topic being nothing but "wifom and non-serious talk"?

[Windblown]

Of course you think he's town.

I meant do you think it's accurate and if so why or why not?

[Windblown]

Because he had never answered.

[Windblown]

Although two people in this game might be seeing what you are doing with a bunch of smilies it's not exactly the best method to display a case if some of us don't know what you exactly mean by those.

I will have to do a reread on Karnage to give my opinion, I said one thing about how I didn't like him answering questions with questions but other than that not much. Will post later.

[Windblown]

Read through Karnage, nothing much stands out to me.

Interesting how out of the 4 posts Yiley brings up 2 are Karnage calling Yiley scummy or voting him. Another I can't find reasoning for, and the last is Karnage talking about disliking Beginner's walls.

[Windblown]

Short post before I go out

Nothing particular really stuck out to me on scumbag, as I've said, don't like how he called out some of us for "WIFOMing and off-topic posting" when he didn't explain.

I have no meta knowledge of any of you although there have been links posted in here or referred to. Do I have to go look at those? Or can I get a fairly clear picture just from in-game? Cause I really don't like having to resort to other games as a significant point in making a case for people unless their meta is really unique.

[Windblown]

Bulba, can you elaborate on why you have a scum read on scumbag/GIF and does the latter's replacement affect that at all; and if so, to what point?

[Windblown]

Hm. I actually don't see GIF putting that much effort into the game - a read over his ISO is some sparse comments on a few bad posts and asking a few questions to people. Only thing that seems really active is voting Karnage for having a lot of nulls after he responded to Bulba talking to Beginner about having too many scum reads.

I'll be on tonight as well (PST), though if my calculations are correct I'll be sleeping at deadline, although my vote is already properly placed in my eyes.

[Windblown]

re: Beginner's question in 371 - gives me a slightly scummy read on that slot.
Excellent that we got an extension too, if we can at least get caled to give a full read/elaborate why she thinks Ffery and myself might be scum, that would help point us in a better direction for tomorrow.

Bert what is town about caled's post that you quoted in 397?

[Windblown]

Oh yeah since a look through Nacho's ISO didn't really help me get a town/scum read on him so I can sympathize with fery's #442 or whatever number it was. I did look through some other game with him as town and he put a lot more effort in, so that's troubling.

[Windblown]

I'm here, school just started, so busy and whatnot. Will try to make a post when I can.

What exactly is 'carefree'? When I think of the word I imagine a kind of aggressive play but that's obviously not the case.

It would be a stronger conviction if he wasn't a sub (of a sub), but I can see Beginner's case on Bert being scum trying to not hop on a wagon he knows to be village in order to gain town cred only because Bert's explanation to his townread on caled was imo pretty weak.

As for the lynch/nightkill affecting my reads on players I'll have to look at a few ISO's later cause I was working under the impression that caled was going to flip scum.

[Windblown]

re: Nacho's late push on Yiley - I didn't see it too badly cause he kinda defused the questions aimed towards him pretty well from my perspective upon first reading it, but now I just reread and he responded by answering in the form of putting forth a ridiculous 'scum master plan' that you wouldn't think he would do:

It is close to deadline to start a new push, but it surprises me that you think my plan today was to bus my partner for the entire day and then suddenly I get afraid he'll actually be lynched so I launch a giant campaign to save him last minute...

and now that caled flipped town that's not necessarily the case although he could be scum trying to cast his vote on someone else so that no one looks at them when they look at the names of the people on the caled wagon. I don't think this is the case here though because I'm not feeling ridiculous enough to believe this theory.

It might be a good idea to check through his opinions on both caled and Yiley to see if this was any sudden change of heart which could be suspicious.

[Windblown]

oops I knew that post would be hard to read

Nacho votes Yiley. People question him about it cause it was late. He answers with that quote. At the moment, it seemed like a good answer to me because I thought caled was scum and if she flipped that way it wouldn't reflect bad on Nacho cause I agree, no one would bus that partner in that way (at least I think). But then she flipped town, and one could see that action as scum trying to distance themselves from a town wagon so that no one suspects them. I think it's far-fetched but Bert asked me about it so I just shared.

summary: Nacho's late push on Yiley isn't that suspicious, BUT I wonder what his rationale was for it.

[Windblown]

Vote Karnage

Felt he'd be more active and engaged as town. I don't have a strong read on anyone right now but if I had to pick anyone now it'd be him. If he's being replaced though that's a different story so eh.

[Windblown]

@Bulba: he was the second in line on my list of scum reads on d1 but as I said it wasn't strong. I also wanted to do something with my vote cause I noticed I wasn't voting someone and this game is kind of stagnating a bit.

[Windblown]

@Nacho - when did you start thinking he is probably faking being clueless?

[Windblown]

Do you think some people are just not cut out for mafia regardless of how much info they've read? (@anyone)

I'm starting to feel anyone can pick up the game so I would sympathize with you on the Yiley concerns.

@Karnage: what is your stance on Yiley? Not sure if I remember right now.

[Windblown]

gotta make a note to myself to reread Bulba's take on Yiley I guess

Mr. Me since I've had a complete null on Yiley, townreads on Beginner and Bert, and null-town on Nacho, I guess it's kinda POE between Karnage and Bulba and some of the latter's recent posts stuck out as town while Karnage has been uncharacteristically inactive (ok I didn't check out his meta THAT much but it's from what I remember) and when he has been posting it isn't really pushing anyone.

[Windblown]

Seems like his vote to Nacho is trying to subtly indicate that he now think Yiley is town, or at least less scummy, than Nacho. I guess that makes sense, but in the light of his recent stances I feel it's fairly significant.

Also found it funny in 591 how he's calling Nacho out for 180s when he is kind of doing it (both today and d1 with caled...kinda? yeah I still haven't reread but since the weekend is coming up I should have some time)

[Windblown]

I apologize for the inactivity as of late cause I honestly am not on the computer all that often since I started college. It's the weekend though and oh deadline is like in 7 hours. k I will promise you that I will post before deadline else hold this to me.

Unvote

cause of the sub though. I just noticed the whole wagon just shifted to Bulba from Yiley, which is agreeable to me.

Time to get caught up.

[Windblown]

Re: 601 – not a hedge. I wasn’t going to hammer until close to the deadline but whoops lost track of time, so I’m still down for hammering around now.

Bulba’s reasoning for his 180 seems to be fine, but the fact that he picked Yiley to do a 180 on makes it easy (well ok Nacho also did a 180 involving Yiley and this is very conflicting nvm)

Okay trying to read the back and forth between Bulba and Nacho and it seems like they’re just reiterating the same points.

Re: Bert’s 644 – Tamuz gets points for pointing out my dip in activity, not reading his posts much right now cause I’m focused on bulba v nacho

I don’t like his [Bulba’s] 3rd paragraph in 635 though mostly cause it seems to be giving a reason and restating it in different words, and it doesn’t really sound wholesome to me.

Going to take it upon me to examine both Nacho’s and Bulba’s explanations (and attacks on the other) regarding their own 180s on Yiley.

First (in response to Bulba asking him why he did a 180 on Yiley)

You and that awkward timing. I've felt niggling paranoia about Yiley all game because there's always the question of how experienced a new player is. We can guess that Yiley probably is new (he would be playing a more aggressive game otherwise), but I don't know if he can fake reads at all (and if he can't, why wouldn't he?). If he really really has no idea at all, then I would pretty much expect this play to look the same regardless of alignment, and regardless of how many games he's read. What I didn't like about your switch was that it came at an unnatural time; you went from pretty consistently Yiley-town, Yiley-town to Yiley-scum at a point in the game where a wagon was stalling and it was getting to be about time for you-scum to attempt to pursue a mislynch, and based on something pretty much arbitrary (in my opinion).

To be honest this doesn’t really explain Nacho’s thought process. He just says that he isn’t sure how experienced Yiley is. He thinks Yiley is probably new, but doesn’t factor this into why he switched viewpoints on him. All he says is that if Yiley was clueless and therefore his behavior genuine, then it would be a null read because either town or scum would act like him. Then he just goes to point out Bulba’s own shift was shifty (no pun intended).

My point of view has shifted constantly this game. At the beginning, I thought that Scumbag and Beginner were scum. Then Beginner became town based on his posts, and my view on the Scumbag slot changed with each subsequent replacement from Scumbag-"scum" to GiF-"town" to Bert-"who the heck knows". We have Yiley, who either can't seem to grasp this game, or is doing a great job at laying low, Windblown, who seems to be too "hands off" for my liking, and then you, Nacho, whose play as town normally leaves an impression on me, but whose play in this game is real forgettable, who does a complete 180 on who he thinks is scum whenever he feels like it, who is playing way too dumb for my liking, who actually doesn't have a clear stance on who he thinks is town or scum. I'll be honest, every time I've thought I had a handle on this game, something would happen to pull the rug out from under my feet and make me start all over again. However, your recent play is helping me put things back together, and I know this: I'm not dealing with town Nacho this game.

Saying Nacho is scum for being difficult to read, playing ‘forgettably,’ doing 180s (ok), and doesn’t have clear town/scum reads (I’d say he probably has solid town reads, but scum reads not so much). I really only think the 180 one is valid here.

@Nacho: Why did you ask Yiley if you were being a bad IC if you didn't plan on rectifying it? I would have imagined that after that question you'd be attempting to ask Yiley questions about what he was not understanding and trying to help him learn how to play. However, you didn't. You just let the question drop. It's almost like you never planned on addressing that issue in the first place, like the question was just for show.

@Yiley: If you were having trouble understanding the game, why didn't you ask more questions? The SEs and the IC are here to help in that regard. I would think that if you were as lost as you're proclaiming that you'd try to clarify how the game is played, but you didn't. Even after you stated that Nacho was doing a horrible job at being an IC, you still never sought to gain clarification on how the game was played. Why was that?

For the record, I no longer think Nacho/Yiley is an either/or choice.

I feel this post with the whole ‘helpful SE vibe’ thing, especially calling out Nacho on appearing to help Yiley and then not, was made a bit too late, but I’m willing to disregard it for now.

His 180s are scumtells because the time he chose to switch makes absolutely no sense, which is something that I've stated in thread a few times, if not many times.

I’d say that an 11th hour 180 at the end of d1 is also a time where switching also makes no sense. I’d also have to agree with Bulba’s 1st paragraph in 635 that the timing of your 2nd 180 also makes no sense.

Re: 2nd paragraph of 635 – would it be too much if I asked for specific examples?

Okay 640 is a pretty important post.

You do a complete 180 on Yiley when his wagon starts to build, again, with no reason. You still say that you're unsure about his cluelessness, so your reasoning for the vote has not changed. There is no evidence of a changed stance anywhere. It makes me wonder if any of these pushes were genuine in the first place.

My original push on Yiley was to sort him. My current push on you is to sort you, but I feel like I'm constantly throwing myself against a brick wall as far as you/Yiley goes. Yiley I can't get anything worth anything out of because all he gives me is random reads now and then, but they don't seem opportunistic, he seems overly afraid of you flipping town, acknowledges he looks scummy, etc. etc. etc. So I constantly flip back and forth with him, but I currently lean town on him. I currently lean town on him because I don't know why the fuck you're 180'ing back and forth, I don't know why the hell you decided to make the pushes on Yiley when you did, and I don't know why you've seemed so sure in each push you've made and not alluded to any sort of doubt and why you're not even willing to admit little things, like you were pretty much reading Yiley as strong town until recently and then later you jumped all over him.

You're also not even coming close to explaining one question I asked you.
One.
I asked you why Yiley reading games is such a big deal and means he can't be playing this way as town. You say you expect him to have a basic idea of how the game works after reading one game, but you don't expect him to have a basic idea of how the game works after reading the newbie guide on the wiki? You don't expect him to have a basic idea of how the game works after playing the game to this point? I sure as hell would but I also wouldn't expect any sort of scum whatsoever to act this way. And when Yiley's play exceeds my expectations regardless of alignment, I'm forced to deal with him in a weird ass way: do I push him and then lynch him even though I don't feel very good about his lynch? No, we already did that with caled and can't afford another mislynch like that. He showed no changes in behavior when we made a random push on him except for "I know why I'm being voted", so then came the votecount in #43, with Me, you, and Beginner on a Yiley wagon. I know there's probably scum in {You, Beginner, Yiley}, Beginner's a strong townread me based on his play and all we got left is you and Yiley. So, hypothetically, if I sort out you, I can sort out Yiley because you two are probably not scum together. Your reaction to my attack on you feels like you'd react to me as scum, thus why I haven't budged and thus why I'm starting to lean town on Yiley.

Maybe forgettable is the wrong word. Your play isn't really leaving that much of an impression on me. Normally when you're town, you play in a way that grabs me and informs me that you're town. There have been 1 or 2 exceptions, but generally this is the case. In this game, your play hasn't impressed me at all, and there were points d1 where I forgot you were even in the game. It worries me that I wasn't able to get a read on you at all, and I'm starting to wonder if that isn't the sign of your scumplay.

Okay. I'm very sorry that my play has not had an incredible impression on you. It should be leaving an impression on you now. Why isn't it? Are you completely blinded because I'm pushing on you and not on someone else? Why weren't you attacking me when I was going after Yiley? Sure, you were voting me, but you were voting me in a very passive way and not at all in the way I'd expect you to go after people.

What was Bulb's scum motivation behind taking such a drastic "360" on Yiley?

He took the 180 on Yiley because the wagon on Yiley was stalling, no one's posting and Yiley was consistently pretty weird. It's following his win condition as scum to push Yiley a bit and give the dead wagon a little more life.

Admittedly, Nacho’s reasoning for changing reads on Yiley is pretty weak. It seems like he gets town reads from Yiley’s really honest (is that the right descriptor idk) reactions to him getting pressured.

His case against Bulba for switching only when he saw that Yiley had read 3 beginner games works though. Yeah, there’s not much difference between reading the guide and reading games.

Another point against Bulba is how he pointed out this passive scum-hunting thing – I’m pretty sure I’ve only seen lots of activity from Bulba when Beginner was making a case against him (forgive me if I’m wrong but there are 27 pages and I really don’t want to go back).

Last thing is interesting. Is it scummier to ‘abandon ship’ on a wagon you started or suddenly jump on deck onto a lynch once it gets fairly strong support? At first instinct I think it’s the latter.

Conclusion: no idea if I made more points against Bulba or Nacho, but I’m still leaning toward scum on Bulba.

I'll be honest I really don't feel much better than how I did before going through everything since page 24, but I'm pretty committed to placing my vote on Bulba before I go to sleep.

[Windblown]

I'm still going to be around for an hour, so I want to see if either posts something between now and then. Making most use of my time.

[Windblown]

I'm off.

Vote Bulbazak

[Windblown]

lol at Bulba's 55

I'm surprised no one was really addressing #832 and posts around that cause I found that turn-around pretty suspicious, too bad I was dead for that. Anyways it was an intense LYLO finish so definitely worth following.