Newbie 1412 - GAME OVER

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak's Catchup Reads

Town

Mastin2

: Strongest town read in the game. His IC stuff is null, but his actual play is strongly town motivated.

Karnage

: He's been scumhunting and there's been solid town motivation behind his posts.

Null/Town

Hodge

: I'm not sure how to take his actions sometimes, but for the most part, what he does seems to come from genuine town motivation.

Hanasawa

: Gut. He reads as town to me.

Null

Smurf Ninja Fan

: He's said several things, such as the lurking comment, that would cause an immediate scum ping. However, I can't see scum being that blatant. He's most likely town, and I wouldn't be surprised if scum push for his mislynch at some point in this game.

Marjam7

: Typical newbie. Not sure how to take his actions, and therefore I can't read him at this time.

Scum

Phokdapolees

: I think several people have commented on it, but a lot of his posts have been filler. He's trying to create the impression that he's doing something, when he's really not. Scum tend to do this more than town.

Marquis

: He tries to appear to be helpful when he's really not. He stretches for reasons to vote people, more so than town tends to do so. And did I mention the buddying? Yeah, this slot's scum.

I'd vote Marquis, but it seems that my predecessor did it for me. More votes on this scumbag would be nice.

[Bulbazak]

How exactly am I trying to "create the impression that I'm doing something?" If this is about my second RVS vote again, just read my previous posts. Again, it was early on in the game, and nobody was saying anything. I was simply trying to keep discussion going. How is that a scumtell? And I changed my vote after that to something more serious.

You threw down a second RVS vote 2 posts after your first RVS vote. True, it was over 20 hours later, but that vote still did NOTHING to further discussion or the game in general. There were other ways to stimulate discussion, if that was what you were after, most notable being asking questions relating to someone's motivation or reasoning. For example, Karnage had just put down a serious vote on Mastin before that post. Why didn't you question him on it? The game was essentially out of RVS. RVS votes in general are not the best conversation starters, and another random vote outside of RVS was going to do NOTHING to further conversation. It was just a way to appear like you were trying to be proactive and stimulate discussion, when all you were really doing was trying to look town.

It's the first day, we really don't have that much information. I'm just using my own best guesses. Once we get to day 2, then we'll have actual evidence.

A lot of stuff can happen on d1. Scum can be caught on d1, in fact, scum can even be caught on the first page. Saying that nothing of importance happens on d1 is a copout for not scumhunting.

[Bulbazak]

What do you see in my play as being strongly town-oriented?

After the IC stuff, everything you do is geared toward finding scum, and it is not at all fake, as it is evident that you really want to find and lynch scum. Your question at the beginning of the game and subsequent annoyance, your interest in getting us out of RVS, and your wanting to make sure you had the truth of the matter in Marquis, all point to this. Your case on Marquis was terrific, and was in line with my thought process for the most part when I was reading the game. It was precise and spot on, which I rarely see at all from scum, as they tend to stretch for their points. There was no reaching whatsoever from you. You have also been more precise in your reasoning and argumentation than I've ever seen from you, and while that may be because you're the IC, I'd like to also believe that it's because you're town as well, and town in a teaching position to boot.

Where do you see the town-motivation from Karnage's posting?

His eagerness to get out of RVS, which you don't see often in scum, plus he has been frequently inquiring about other people's motives, which means he's actually scumhunting.

Why is Smurf listed as null, when everything you're listing places him as at least null-town if not town?

Because while I think scum wouldn't be that blatant, I can't discount it. Otherwise, I'd be falling into the Too Scummy to be Scum fallacy. This is a Newbie game, which means that we're going to see a lot of things that are outside the range of a normal game on this site, simply because new players are playing. A lot of things that would be considered scummy in other sections of the site are simply newb tells here and say nothing about alignment. People tend to get newbiness confused with scumminess all the time, but at the same time, I've seen instances of incredibly transparent scum, that again, was the cause of said player's newbiness. Therefore, I have no reason of knowing if Smurf's remarks thus far are coming from scummy looking town or obv. scum. I'd rather keep him in the null category until I see enough from his play to satisfy me either way.

What did you see in Marquis's post that you think was buddying?

i like your avatar. let's lynch scum together, my buddy

in hindsight my reasoning on mastin was bad and my vote was only on him because I was OMGUSing him. he actually looks town when I bother to read his posts UNVOTE: mastin

Take a look at that second paragraph. He's caught flak from his attempt to get you mislynched, and his response is to unvote you, throw up his hands and say, "Don't lynch me oh townie one. Let's be friends.". He's hoping that his unvote will pacify you enough to get you off his back. It's a self-preservation tactic. It's buddying. And it's scummy.

To be honest, I'm not quite sure how to take that first paragraph. I don't know enough about Marquis as scum to tell if it's buddying, or if he's communicating with his scum buddy.

[Bulbazak]

i'm here and i'm town and so is phok and bluba is conf biasing or scum who either way ignores my blatant sarcasm as did some other people ok sleepytime bye~

How am I conf. biasing? I read through the thread objectively upon replacing in and gave my reads. The fact that you are trying to dismiss them right off the bat by saying it's confirmation bias, tells me that I'm probably right on track.

More votes on Marquis, please.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, that should put Marquis at L-1. I don't want to see a hammer until after someone has given intent and Marquis has been given time to claim. Anyone who quickhammers is tomorrow's lynch. No exceptions.

[Bulbazak]

Phok locked onto the fact that Marjam hasn't been posting actively, and that showed some effort.

That doesn't make Phok town at all, especially since newb scum like to go after lurkers.

What made you declare Marjam's play as that of a "typical newbie"? (And for that matter, define what 'typical newbie' is.)

The whole lack of confidence in his play and the general sense that he's doing nothing. That's more of a newbie tell in these games than an actual scumtell. For an example, check out Mujie in Newbie 1377, and he was the town JK! Players who are especially new to the game tend to lack the confidence of more experienced players, and that lack of confidence tends to be misconstrued as scumminess. Give Marjam until d2 to get acclimated, and then if you want to build a scum case on him, do so on his actions and stances, not on how much he posts or how he posts.

Why did you join this game?

I had signed up as an SE in the Newbie queue, saw Amrun's request for a replacement, and though, "Eh, why not?".

What was it exactly from Marquis that shook your confidence in that scumread?

[Bulbazak]

His unvote and switch to Hodge--while being confusing and maybe-bad--is an acknowledgement that a mistake has been made. You can argue it's scum-acknowledging-they've-made-a-mistake, and yes, that's fully possible, but all the same, it weakened the read.

His initial switch to Hodge was him trying to pacify you by unvoting you. That shouldn't weaken the read. It should strengthen it.

Targeting Hodge is going against popular opinion, another thing most scum players are not fond of doing.

It depends on how ballsy the scum is, and Marquis has shown that he's willing to take on the IC.

103 weakens it even further, because it sounds

really,

really

legitimate

.

Explain this one to me, because I'm not seeing it.

And the last factor is, as previously mentioned, the ease of the wagon. Marquis is getting lynched a bit too easily for him to realistically be as strong a scumread as I originally had.

I hear this come up alot as reason to back off a wagon. However, you and I both have seen quickwagons develop on scum. I don't see how this is a tell.

The presence of Smurf, Hanasawa, and you, all make the wagon look worse. Smurf and Hanasawa both being scum candidates regardless of your alignment, and neither one having a particularly good reason to be on the wagon.

This I can kinda understand.

You being (as previously mentioned) highly "convenient" in your reads on players, which is concerning as well.

People tend to say this a lot about my catchup post whenever I replace in, and there's a lot of times that it's not true. What exactly is "convenient" about my reads, which were only made based on 4 pages of gameplay? How is it that I couldn't have come to those conclusions as town?

By the way. 103 makes it so that Marquis and phok, your top two scum candidates, cannot be scum together. "...Why?"

You really think that scum, with what could very well be their dieing breath, is going to screw their scumbuddy over by defending them very weakly in a very desperate tone of voice? HECK no. That was as legitimate as it comes. Argue wifom all you like; that. was. not. scum. wifom. It was either town legitimacy (in which case, Marquis is town), or scum legitimacy (in which case, Phok is town), but in either case, is legitimate.

"Why would scum-Marquis make a legitimate statement like that?"

As a last-ditch effort to appear pro-town. To cast wifom onto the slot and make people think they're scumbuddies, because on the surface, scum-defending-a-player makes said player look bad when you don't bother to analyze the reasons

why

they were; circumstances are everything. As something Marquis would say regardless of alignment. Take your pick. There's any number of reasons why Marquis would do it as scum, and dang-good reasons Marquis would do it as town, but absolutely no reasons why a scum-Marquis would defend a scum-Phok.

I think I've mentioned before that I've gone back and forth on whether they're scum together. Just because they're both top scumreads does not necessarily mean that I think they are scum together.

[Bulbazak]

Smurf just moved into Null/Scum.

[Bulbazak]

You went out of your way to make sure that Phok remained a scumspect regardless of Marquis's flip.

[Bulbazak]

Yeah... Not buying the JK claim. Especially since you claimed VT first and then switched. There's only one way I'd believe it, and that's if a BP would claim right now. And then, it's only because that would give us a conf. townie that is essentially unkillable, ensuring a town win.

[Bulbazak]

and if bp exists it shouldn't claim unless in danger of a lynch kk?

Why shouldn't they claim? If a BP claims, they're essentially an unkillable townie, since scum would have to waste shots on them 2 nights in order to kill them. Do you know how powerful that is? If used correctly, it essentially ensures town the game. Plus, it is the only role that would also confirm your claim, essentially making you confirmed town as well. Heck, at that point, scum might as well throw their hands up in the air and say, "I give up."

[Bulbazak]

Bulb, what do you think about Marquis's lying PR meta that he brought up?

The fact that he brought up his own meta means that his meta is not useful as a defense. Also, lying as town is never a good move, and I can think of very few times that it would actually be helpful, and very few people who could pull it off. Marquis is not one of them. Lying town hurts the town more than helps it.

[Bulbazak]

I think Marquis is lying scum.

[Bulbazak]

And I'd personally prefer for scum to miss a kill on any bp

A claimed BP presents a WIFOM issue for scum, though. Do they shoot at the conf. townie (i.e. the BP) and waste their shot, or do they try to get a guaranteed kill in. Either way, it's advantageous for town, since it give us a conf. townie for at least 2 day phases, and it gives us more momentum than scum.

[Bulbazak]

103 weakens it even further, because it sounds

really,

really

legitimate

.

Explain this one to me, because I'm not seeing it.

How exactly can I explain something seeming really legitimate? It just is. There's no quantifiable way of measuring legitimacy.

Okay, let's try this again. What about 103 made you think town rather than scum?

Just because they're both top scumreads does not necessarily mean that I think they are scum together.

So who's the other scum, then?

Currently I'm leaning Smurf.

If not a Phok-Marquis team, what do you see?

I don't know. Get back to me tomorrow after a flip.

Anywaaaaaay. I have a policy. It's called "don't lynch claimed PRs on day one, no matter how scummy they may seem".

Even when they originally claimed VT?

I'm reasonably certain Marquis is lying, yes.

At least once.

Also, I'm pretty sure Hana is town.

[Bulbazak]

So with Hanasawa and Marquis at L-2 each where do we go?

Here.

Unvote

Vote Phokdapolees

Hana vs. Phok. Everybody choose a side. You have less than an hour, and if we no lynch, I'll be asking everyone not on 1 of these 2 wagons why not?

[Bulbazak]

No. Hana's town. Although, she has no excuse not to be on the Phok wagon.

[Bulbazak]

15 minutes guys. Tick tock. Tick tock. If we no lynch, Hana and Smurf will have to answer to me.

[Bulbazak]

He claimed VT originally. Hammer Phok.

[Bulbazak]

I'm more looking at Bulba tbh as it was 2 pretty quick votes together and bulba in post 149 feels as though they are pressuring town into a lynch. Atm I believe the other scum could have been 1 of the other voters and i'm leaning on hana being the partner as I think Marquis may have voted to lynch purely so we didn't no lynch on day 1.

So why is it okay for Marquis to not want to no lynch, but when I don't want to no lynch, I'm scummy?

Vote Smurf Ninja Fan

Not sure who his partner is, but this is scum.

[Bulbazak]

Did you just pull an anorway or did you just give up, Bulb?

I'm not even sure what this means.

You say choose a side between Phok and Hana but then say Hana is town? Should you have just not asked people to vote Phok at the time if you did believe Hana to be town?

I did think Hana was town, and Phok was my preferred lynch. However, that close to deadline I just wanted people to vote one or the other so that we wouldn't no lynch. And even though I wouldn't like it, a Hana flip would tell us just as much as a Phok flip.

I'm more looking at Bulba tbh as it was 2 pretty quick votes together and bulba in post 149 feels as though they are pressuring town into a lynch. Atm I believe the other scum could have been 1 of the other voters and i'm leaning on hana being the partner as I think Marquis may have voted to lynch purely so we didn't no lynch on day 1.

So why is it okay for Marquis to not want to no lynch, but when I don't want to no lynch, I'm scummy?

Vote Smurf Ninja Fan

Not sure who his partner is, but this is scum.

Sorry can you show me a post where you said you didn't want to lynch? If you have I have missed it in a quick skim read. Marquis wasn't for a no lynch as shown in 161 but appeared to be forced into a vote last minute to ensure we got a lynch.

15 minutes guys. Tick tock. Tick tock. If we no lynch, Hana and Smurf will have to answer to me.

You then say if we no lynch Hana and Smurf would have to answer to you? If you agreed with a potential no lynch as you said why would people have to answer to you if they decided to no lynch?

I said that I didn't want to no lynch. Read my posts instead of trying to take everything I say out of context and paint me as scummy. A no lynch is the sign of a lazy or apathetic town, and those lose games. We needed a lynch, or more specifically a flip, to give us information to work off of.

Also can I ask why you are so focused on Smurf? You have voted without giving much reason and just exclaiming this is scum. If you consider Phok's choices Smurf was null at least and going on town.

Smurf Ninja Fan

: He's said several things, such as the lurking comment, that would cause an immediate scum ping. However, I can't see scum being that blatant. He's most likely town, and I wouldn't be surprised if scum push for his mislynch at some point in this game.

Why is Smurf listed as null, when everything you're listing places him as at least null-town if not town?

Because while I think scum wouldn't be that blatant, I can't discount it. Otherwise, I'd be falling into the Too Scummy to be Scum fallacy. This is a Newbie game, which means that we're going to see a lot of things that are outside the range of a normal game on this site, simply because new players are playing. A lot of things that would be considered scummy in other sections of the site are simply newb tells here and say nothing about alignment. People tend to get newbiness confused with scumminess all the time, but at the same time, I've seen instances of incredibly transparent scum, that again, was the cause of said player's newbiness. Therefore, I have no reason of knowing if Smurf's remarks thus far are coming from scummy looking town or obv. scum. I'd rather keep him in the null category until I see enough from his play to satisfy me either way.

Smurf just moved into Null/Scum.

You went out of your way to make sure that Phok remained a scumspect regardless of Marquis's flip.

15 minutes guys. Tick tock. Tick tock. If we no lynch, Hana and Smurf will have to answer to me.

I no longer believe that Smurf is Too Scummy to be Scum, but rather blatantly obvious scum.

[Bulbazak]

-Bulbazak is incredibly suspicious for the push on phok. I told you that phok was town and I think I laid out some fairly-decent reasons as to why, and yet, he managed to push that wagon through.

Just because you thought Phok was town doesn't mean anyone else did. I know I didn't. Also, we were seriously close to the deadline and there was no consensus. Of course I'm going to push for a lynch.

-The alternative wagon at the time was Hanasawa. This, to me, is beginning to point to a Bulbazak-Hanasawa team.

How does Hana being the other wagon close to deadline mean anything? All it meant was that people suspected her. You're stretching for this point, Mastin.

In a game like this, you need your scumbuddy alive.

I've proven that I can lose my scumpartner early in a Newbie game and still win. Honestly, if I was scum, that wouldn't bother me.

Bulbazak, however, is a type of player who can and has exploited the too-obvious-to-be-true argument as scum.

Only when it comes to who I keep around in Lylo. If you hand town an easy lynch, they'll be suspicious of it. If it's harder for them, they're more likely to see it as genuine.

But when there's two scum alive, it's actually optimal play to lie in the exact manner Marquis did. If I had the jailkeeper role and was outted, I would have done the EXACT thing Marquis did.

Town should never lie.

If it were to be true, it'd point to a SE with a fondness for pulling ballsy moves. (Like Bulbazak.)

While I like ballsy moves, no killing is not one of them. If I have a kill, I'm going to use it.

Bulbazak was not a town player, yesterday.

Really now. This is the first I've heard of my universal scumminess.

he spearheaded the Marquis attempted mislynch

Nope. That was you.

AND the successful Phok mislynch.

Town was going to No Lynch. Of course I pushed the Phok lynch hard!

Objectively speaking, I was not seen by scum by anyone at the end of yesterday, painting me as a more probable target.

Only newbie scum target the IC n1. However, we had a PR claim. Scum should have been targeting that.

In essence, there is no scum reason for a kill on Bulbazak.

I disagree with that, but then again, I'm vain. I don't mind living a bit longer.

Alright, so last week I was very busy in RL and not sleeping much so somehow I read marquis' claim as BP instead of JK. The thing is I am the jailkeeper so marquis is scum. I realized my mistake just before the deadline so I figured it was best to keep quiet since I though there was a chance phok could be scum and I didn't think we would be able to swing the votes to marquis quickly enough to avoid a no lynch.

Today I was thinking I could ride things out and see if I could find his partner before coming forward since even if they knew I was the JK they would avoid killing me since once I flip he would be insta-lynched. But I don't think I'm a good enough player to pull it off and I worried about being believed at lylo.

I'm going to re-read but I'm leaning toward either mastin or marjam. I think today's action so far clears bulbazak as town.

VOTE: marquis

Who did you JK?

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Vote Marquis

It actually makes sense given the circumstances. I didn't like the claim yesterday, but until the counterclaim today, it seemed as if he was confirmed. Not to mention that I actually believe the Karnage claim a lot better. Think about it. Why would you risk such a bad counter claim as scum? Karnage has more to lose at this point if he was scum than he has to gain. If he is lying, he's essentially guaranteed his lynch. And for what? To save me? If I'm town, why would he risk his life to deter my lynch? And if I'm scum, why put both of us in immediate danger? It just isn't the optimal play as scum. Not to mention the fact that if we were on a scum team together, I'd have him do the kill, since he had more credibility than I did. A Marquis JK, therefore, just doesn't make sense.

It is obvious at this point that Marquis is scum. The question is: Who is his partner? I have some ideas, although it depends on how ballsy and cunning Marquis is as scum, which I don't think is very. I think there is someone else pulling the strings of this scumteam. I still need to figure out who.

[Bulbazak]

Don't worry about it. I think I have a pretty good idea who the partner is. Karnage should definitely say who he's targeting. Scum may try to trick us with follow the JK, but sooner or later it will backfire on them. If Karnage is the JK, we have this game in the bag.

[Bulbazak]

Marquis, I've seen the No Defense defense done better.

[Bulbazak]

Town sometimes self votes too, but it rarely ends well and is very distracting. It is something that should be avoided at all costs, as all it does is muddy the waters and make scum look townier for doing so.

[Bulbazak]

Request prod on Marjam7

[Bulbazak]

I personally don't think Marquis could have thought of this by himself.

[Bulbazak]

*polishes glasses*

Hey look!

[Bulbazak]

I've advocated a BP claiming before, simply because their existence DOES semi-break this setup. There's no way that a BP would be NK'd at this point, which essentially gives us conf. town. Besides, even if scum fake claim BP without a counter claim, that'd still clear Mastin if Karnage is killed during the night. All that would do for scum is get them a step closer to Lylo before they die. The BP claim plan is solid.

[Bulbazak]

Although the "clear Mastin" part only works if the BP claim is fake and we know it. Meh. It's still solid.

[Bulbazak]

Mastin, there are 2 reasons why scum wouldn't NK you n1:

1.) You're scum

2.) You're town, and someone on the scum team is competent (not Marquis). Only newb or incompetent scum go for the IC on n1. This means that we're looking for an experienced player to be Marquis's partner.

[Bulbazak]

My point is that experienced players know that if no other option is available, the IC is normally protected on N1. Trying to kill the IC on n1 of a Newbie game is essentially wasting a shot.

P-edit: I was actually still thinking you-scum, but the JK should clear things once and for all.

[Bulbazak]

Who is scum if I'm not?

I'm leaning Hodge, simply because I didn't like his entrance into d2, and I got the same basic gut pings that I got near the beginning of the game. I stand by that Marquis's partner is competent and probably came up with the "JK Bulba" claim. Hodge, while being new to the site, strikes me as a competent player, and in many ways is a stronger player than Marquis.

And why do you think that I am Marquis's scumbuddy?

1.) The way you backed off the Marquis wagon after I entered and applied pressure of my own

2.) Saying that Marquis's claiming VT and then JK made sense for a JK. It does not, and is, in and of itself, evidence of scum trying to stay alive. Lying about your role when at L-1 is not ideal play for any PR.

3.) Given the way you attacked me after I pushed Marquis yesterday, and your approval of the Bulba wagon and Marquis's overall play, it makes me think that the "Bulba JK'd" plan was your idea. As I said, I think that Marquis has a stronger scumpartner who told him what to do last night. You fit that perfectly.

Also, I've been waiting for the inevitable Marquis lynch.

[Bulbazak]

So if everyone believes that Marquis is scum, why is no one else voting him, especially with only 2 days left until deadline?

[Bulbazak]

Really only scum would want the day to end too early as it deprives the town of info, providing all votes necessary happen.

I'm not trying to end the day early. I'm trying to prevent a no lynch when we have conf. scum. Mafiascum doesn't use plurality lynches in Newbie games, which means if deadline hits in the current game state, no lynch will occur. And given this town's track record thus far, I don't trust you guys to lynch scum right before the deadline on Monday.

[Bulbazak]

Tamuz, why are you asking these questions when we have neither?

[Bulbazak]

Why the Karnage vote?

[Bulbazak]

Because the vote is forced between JK claims and I think Karnage is the most likely to be scum between the two.

Why?

[Bulbazak]

Lets not get ahead of ourselves, there are questions to be answered.

Yes there are. Mine for starters.

[Bulbazak]

Tamuz, your questions are nonsense filler. Mine are actually game related. Answer my question.

[Bulbazak]

I answered a question of yours, all you've done is disparage me. I think you need to go to bed.

Probably, but I'd still like my question answered. Why is Karnage more likely to be scum over Marquis?

[Bulbazak]

I gave my reasons why I thought Marquis was scum on d1. They still hold true today. In fact, even more so. Karnage is a town read, and I buy his reasons for why he didn't CC d1. So, yeah, I have reasons why I believe that Karnage is the real JK. But you know what happens if I'm wrong? Then we lynch him. You haven't really explained much of why you are calling Karnage scum, other than "everybody has weak reasoning", "Marquis has given up" (Which he would also do as scum in this situation.), and "Karnage and everybody else is confident enough in their ability to break the game.". Maybe that's good enough reasoning for you to go against the flow, but it's not for me.

Karnage, don't bother JKing Mastin tonight. JK Tamuz instead. Scum just made this game easy.

[Bulbazak]

Unless you're claiming BP, I think it's already been established that there is no BP in this game.

[Bulbazak]

Why are you trying to shut down information, Bulbazak?

I'm not. I'm preventing the asking of pointless questions. We've already allowed for a BP claim, and there was none, which means that if there is a BP left, it's you. So unless you're claiming BP, which I doubt, then there is no reason to be asking such usless questions. In fact, that's essentially all you've done since replacing in. How about adding something of value to the discussion? Perhaps you can bus your buddy. That always helps.

P-edit: I've seen scum be this stupid before. Simply dismissing Tamuz as scum because "no scum in their right mind would do this" is bad play. I actually think that Tamuz as scum WOULD do this, especially given that he so out of sorts with the game and is not playing to a town wincon.

[Bulbazak]

Okay Mastin, riddle me this. How is this:

Hodge, who are scum?

Anorway. If you were a cop, who would you investigate tonight?

Karnage. If you were a doctor who would you protect tonight?

beneficial at this stage in the game? Answer: It's not! Tamuz tried not engaging in the game for the longest time. He threw out a Karnage scumread which he refused to substantiate, even after I pressed him multiple times. His final reasoning for said scumread essentially boils down to "Nobody has any reasons for Marquis being scum.", which is false, while he simultaneously doesn't give adequate reasons for Karnage to be scum.

As for this:

Why are you trying to shut down information, Bulbazak?

Tell me Mastin, how does this question:

Amrun: if a BP was in your game and they got hit, would you inform them?

help at all, especially given that there has not been a BP claim so far? The only way that'd make sense is if Tamuz is the BP, which if he was, he'd know there was no reason to ask such a question. Of course the mod is not going to tell the BP they got shot! That's the sort of question you ask to make yourself appear town. But let's say for the sake of argument that Tamuz is the BP, there would still be no reason to ask such a question, as Marjam was not going to be the NK in the first place. Why? Because he was absent, a lot of people were suspicious of him, and he would have made a great mislynch. So, again, no reason to ask. What Tamuz has asked so far are useless questions, which means that it's impossible to stifle information concerning them. Meanwhile, he's avoided answering important questions for as long as he possibly could. I'm not the one trying to shut down information here. He is.

P-edit: I don't have a reason to think Marquis is scum? Hmm... Let's think about this. Had a scum read on Marquis the entire game. Check. Had a town read on Karnage the entire game. Check. Karnage claimed to have JK'd Marquis on a night with no kill. Check. Marquis claimed to JK me, who I know to be town, and is using that as a reason to push my lynch. Check. Hmm... Which one do I think is real...? Answer: Karnage. Marquis is scum. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out.

As for Karnage wanting to lynch who he thinks the scumbuddy is, it's understandable if he knows that he's the real JK, and he can always JK Marquis during the night.

And yes, I'm being abrasive to you because you're either very stupid scum (Sorry Mastin, I'm not buying the "too scummy to be scum" argument.) or idiotic town. I'm choosing to believe the former.

[Bulbazak]

beneficial at this stage in the game? Answer: It's not! Tamuz tried not engaging in the game for the longest time.

Maybe its throwing something up while I read?
I can't read a game in 10 minutes you know.

Then how about you, I don't know, don't post anything until after you catch up? This is not a large game. You can catch up in less than a day.

[Bulbazak]

No, I'm being direct and trying to get some straight answers, while you try to weasel your way out of them.

[Bulbazak]

Counterpoint:

Vote Mastin2

Follow the JK.

[Bulbazak]

Mastin, you being targeted for a NK would have been a waste of said NK, especially since Karnage stated that he was going to JK you. That leaves you doing the killing and scum no killing. If scum decided to no kill, instead of taking the opportunity to kill the JK, then they are taking an awfully big risk. That type of gambit depends on the JK jailing wrong every night for the rest of the game. If he jails scum once, they lose. That's simply too big a risk for too little reward. The optimal play for scum in this case would be to kill Karnage. Hence, why I think you're scum.

@Tamuz: I thought your Hodge case yesterday was decent. However, given the JK result, I think it's unlikely that he's scum.

[Bulbazak]

There is no BP. If there was, scum could have just blocked Karnage and done whatever they wanted.

[Bulbazak]

You are so full of crap.

If I was scum I would have:

1.)Performed the NK n1.

2.)Killed Karnage n2.

Why? Because chaos is scum's best friend. No lynching in a "Follow the PR" type situation is too risky.

[Bulbazak]

But what if you were scum?

I would have killed Karnage last night.

[Bulbazak]

Why?

That leaves mastin alive, conf town and he's a strong player who is certain I'm town.

Because I'm not stupid enough not to use a kill. In your scenario, we have a confirmed town either way. Why not get rid of the conf. town who could make my life miserable in future nights? This almost sounds like you think conf. town Mastin would be able to somehow get scum-me lynched. Most likely, the result would be a Hodge lynch, so I'm not seeing where you're coming from. The best move for scum last night would have been to lynch Karnage. Period.

[Bulbazak]

First... how does Karnage get lynched last night? I really want to be right about hodge, but your foot is way past your mouth and in your stomache.

Come on. Even you can't be this dense. I obviously meant NK.

Nice framing q no-kill as stupid. I think it can be a well measured move here. If a scum doesn't think Karnage targets them, Karnage spearheads the kill on mastin, then Karnage dies that night.
I count 0 confirmed townies after that day.

Whoever Karnage JK'd would still be a conf. townie.

Will conf. town mastin get scum you lynched? Maybe scum you will get scum you lynched?

I think someone's been drinking the Kool-Aid.

[Bulbazak]

You claim you wouldn't waste your nightkill by choosing no-kill. But if you targeted me, you wouldn't be lying with your claim. You

wouldn't

be wasting the nightkill. You'd be gathering valuable info and testing the waters for tomorrow. If things played out in the most probable way, you'd end up having effectively no-killed and put me on the chopping block. But you'd have also gained info about Karnage which no-killing would have lost you. So a scum-you WOULD nightkill me.

What information would I gain? That Karnage is the JK? We already knew that. There is no adequate reason to try to kill someone that the JK has already announced is going to be JK'd. That's horribly bad play, and I can't believe you, as an IC, are suggesting it.

As scum, I display confirmation bias

I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.

Also, I'm finding this attack on my skill and play to be one last attempt at mudslinging. I've learned recently that in cases such as this, it is best to follow the freaking PR! Does this mean that I don't have other suspects? No. It just means that PoE points to Mastin. I actually do think that there is a case for a Mastin/Marquis scumteam. The biggest piece of evidence is that Mastin was pushing Marquis as scum, but when I replaced in, gave my own case on Marquis, and pushed hard on him, Mastin backed off of Marquis and started attacking me. This, ladies and gentlemen, is called chainsaw defending, where scum attacks the person who is attacking their partner. Even now, Mastin continues his attack. He's not looking back over the game and giving final thoughts. He's trying to get leverage to sling mud onto me and shift attention onto my slot so that maybe I'll be lynched instead of him.

The most unforgivable aspect of Mastin's play, however, is his misuse of Mafia theory and abuse of his position as IC. I have had a hard time believing some of the things that he's said theory-wise, as they don't make sense, and as someone who has written essays on mafia theory, Mastin should know it. A PR lying at L-1 is good town play? Bull crap. In a situation where the JK openly says who he's going to JK, and there is no kill, you should not lynch that person? Even you know that is the minority opinion. Scum in such a situation should still NK the person who the JK said he was going to JK? Are you high? Scum always deal in absolutes and focus so tightly on one person, leaving no other options only? Come on, Mastin! Experience would have told you that this is absolutely false, as one of the biggest scumtells is scum keeping their options open. At the very least, Mastin is displaying a complete ignorance of basic mafia theory. At most, he's breaking the #1 rule of being an IC, which is that an IC should never lie about mafia theory and the way the game is played.

Mastin, if you are scum and are doing this, I promise you that I will report you at the end of the game. I sincerely hope this isn't the case, because the IC position in a Newbie game is one that shouldn't be abused.

[Bulbazak]

Mastin, I'm the only one with my vote on you. Quit panicking.

[Bulbazak]

Tamuz, we have PRs for a reason: to help us catch scum. So when the JK jails someone when there's only 1 scum left, and there is no NK, then you lynch the person who was JK'd. It's not rocket science. In the meantime, I feel confident enough in my reads to go ahead with this lynch. If you don't, that's okay, but at the end of the day, this is the lynch that is happening.

[Bulbazak]

Must be a bad reason. This setup is incredibly town sided.

[Bulbazak]

Matrix 6

[Bulbazak]

Explain it to me then, because when I looked at the new setup, I noticed how incredibly lopsided it was. Keep in mind, this is coming from someone who has beat this setup as scum.

[Bulbazak]

Newbie set ups have moved consistently away from 'follow the cop' strategies (later follow the pr). The point was to introduce enough doubt in every row and column to devalue brainless info-role following games and reinforce making decisions based on scum-hunting. The point was to stop exactly the thing happening today. Scum-hunting has been discouraged today because "lol we're lynching mastin, who cares if anyone thinks he's actually scum."

Actually, I took the time to look it up in the wiki. The reason Matrix 6 was created was to give mods more variety in the roles and setups they could use, since some setups were being used more than others. It had nothing to do with "Follow the PR", as that is just part of the game in general.

I keep thinking you're saying set-up as if you know which row or column we're in. I don't know about you, but I don't know if there is a RB/BP or if the JK is the only PR.

Use your brain. It's obvious which setup we're in. No one claimed BP yesterday during massclaime, and if there was a roleblocker, Karnage would have been blocked. We only have the 1 PR, and there's only a goon left.

Bulba doesn't seem to like the idea of actually scum-hunting right now. Slightly off to me. What have you got against scum-hunting now as opposed to lynching mastin. Seems like a wasted lynch on mastin, he's pretty clearly town.

What don't you get from my stances on players d1&2? I have a pretty good town base, and I have ample reason to believe Mastin is scum. If for some reason he's town, and scum decided to no kill, then the last scum is somewhere in {Tamuz, Hodge, Smurf}. Tamuz is the most likely, as he explains why Marquis carried out the kill n1 (Marjam was absent.).

I still want an answer to the theory question;

In this situation why is it better to lynch the JK target rather than to lynch scummiest target and continue to JK the same target?

Because we have 1 scum left, and the JK is announcing his target, which happens to be a scumread. If there's no kill, refusing to lynch the JK target is refusing to lynch likely scum and end the game. That is playing against a town wincon. It's the same as if a cop gets a guilty on a player. You don't lynch someone else because "if we follow the PR we're not scumhunting...". You, instead, lynch the person with the guilty on them. That's part of scumhunting: Trusting your freaking PRs to do their job!

[Bulbazak]

Newbies used to be standard doc, cop, 3 townies 2 scum.

Hence why Matrix 6 was created: to add more variety, not to eliminate "follow the cop".

I don't think there is sufficient data to say absolutely whether there is or isn't a roleblocker/BP, use your brain.

There is a massclaim d2 to determine if scum have a roleblocker. Nobody claims BP. Tell me again that there is insufficient data.

Tamuz is the most likely, as he explains why Marquis carried out the kill n1 (Marjam was absent.).

huh? I'm pretty sure non-present scum can still have the kill action. This is just silly.

Depends on the mod. If scum want to make sure their kill goes through, that's probably not a safe bet to make.

Mastin doesn't happen to be a scum read to most of the town, you realize this, right? Or is everything getting lost in the rage boner this game seems to give you?

So everybody was just joking d2 when they were talking about Mastin being Marquis's scumpartner? Yeah, he's a universal townread.

Nobody has a guilty on them, so I'm just going to puff away the rest of what you said with that.

With 1 scum left, being JK'd on a night with no kill is essentially the same as a guilty. Are you naturally this dumb, or did you try really hard to get this way?

[Bulbazak]

Bulba just putting something forward, but when you say mass claim, at most we have 2 PR's its hardly a mass claim if both were to come forward? Just saying but in past mass claims were when there are 4/5 roles in a game, I could be wrong about whether it means that on this site though.

There are many types of massclaims. Yesterday we were doing a BP massclaim to determine if there was a roleblocker. Everybody claimed not BP, except for Tamuz, who immediately entered and started derping around. If there actually is a BP in this setup, it's him, and he's purposely denying the town information, which seems to fit into his general MO.

Just to add to the thing about a potential BP, anyone know if they were to claim could a scum use their role block ability to remove the 1 shot and therefore kill the BP in one night kill? Could be a reason they haven't claimed?

Bulletproof is a passive ability, which means that it can't be blocked. The only thing that would counter BP would be Strongman, but that isn't even a possibility in Matrix 6.

[Bulbazak]

Tamuz, stop proving me right every time we play together.

[Bulbazak]

Keep thinking that.

[Bulbazak]

Can we have a vote count?

[Bulbazak]

In that case, I expect intent to be given before a hammer, along with enough time for Mastin to get some final thoughts out. If anyone quickhammers, Karnage should JK them in the event Mastin is not scum.

[Bulbazak]

Mastin, part of me really hopes you're town, because if you're scum, my faith in you has been shattered.

[Bulbazak]

@Mod: Can we have a vote count, including when the actual deadline is?

[Bulbazak]

Vote Hodge

[Bulbazak]

It's either Hodge or Tamuz. If we're wrong on one today, we lynch the other tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Vote Tamuz

Actually, I'm going to go with my gut here. I still have a hard time understanding why Hodge wouldn't deliver the NK n1 if scum. It doesn't make sense. However, Tamuz's predecessor was not around n1, so Marquis delivering the kill does make sense in those circumstances.

[Bulbazak]

Tamuz, those types of bets are against the game rules. I've seen people modkilled for that.

[Bulbazak]

I think there may be 1 game where I haven't harassed you. There are better ways to go about proving your innocence if you're town.

P-edit: Sometimes circumstantial evidence nails scum. Given that Marquis fake claimed, he should have known that he was likely going to be targeted by the town PR. No matter how he was getting along with his scumpartner, Marquis should not have been the one carrying out the kill. That's the one thing about a Hodge-scum case that doesn't make sense. However, Tamuz's predecessor was absent at that time, and Tamuz had not replaced in yet. Marquis was all alone and had no choice but to carry out the kill. It's circumstantial, yes, but it's the only thing that makes sense given what we know.

[Bulbazak]

Tamuz, I don't think your case against Hodge is bad. However, I just can't get past Marquis delivering the NK when he was guaranteed to be targeted that night.

[Bulbazak]

If you were scum, how do you win, Bulbazak?

Do you mind rephrasing the question?

[Bulbazak]

Are you asking which order I'd push you 2 as scum? No clue, because I wouldn't have played this way if I was scum. I don't squander NKs.

[Bulbazak]

If I didn't answer your question, then what exactly

was

your question? Again, asking about what scum Bulba would do in this situation is hard to answer, because scum Bulba would not have made the choices to be in this situation.

[Bulbazak]

If Bulbazak is scum, which one is he more likely to push? If Bulbazak is town, which is he more likely to push? For both roles what reasoning would he give to assert one choice pair over another?

Again, tough question. My scum mantra is typically "What would town Bulba do?", although there are some obvious exceptions to the rule. I'm torn, because with that in mind, Tamuz would obviously be the push that I would go for as scum. However, Hodge is very tempting as well, and I wonder if I would pass up the opportunity to push him first, especially since I think a Tamuz lynch would work much better in Lylo. Actually, screw it, I'd be pushing Hodge right now if I was scum. That opportunity just screams to the scum side of my brain.

I've yet to see a game where a scum partner can't declare the kill to be done by someone else in the team. If you want to make this point, provide a game in a newbie where the mod disallowed Partner A to say Partner B makes the kill.

People rarely assume that they can make their partner perform the kill. I think I've only done so once, and that was out of pure desperation. Speaking from my own personal mod meta, I require scum to PM me their night kill choice, and usually from the one doing the NK. I can see how someone would not leap to the conclusion that they could still have their partner perform the kill if their partner was absent.

*On a general note: My computer died last night. I'm currently leeching what time I can off other computers, but I can't guarantee all of that time will go towards Mafia. Consider me on limited access until further notice. Hopefully, I can get a new computer soon. I just may not be posting as much in the interim (I'll see if I can get on at least once a day.).*

[Bulbazak]

It still makes 0 sense. Mastin basicaly hada 100% town read on me going into N2. Think that through in relation to the scenario that you're proposing.

To me, it's effectively a question of "Bulbazak, or hodge?" at this point. So I'm weighing Bulbazak, and weighing hodge. Since it's a fairly decent probability that I'm living to see D3 (the only way I wouldn't is if the scum nightkilled me successfully), I can afford to wait to form my conclusion on which is the most likely.

And Mastin can't be wrong?

[Bulbazak]

You didn't think through what I am saying.

I'm not saying "mastin says I'm town ergo I'm town". I'm saying "given mastin's stance on me, it makes no sense for me to set in motion the lynch on the aggressive player who is convinced I'm town if I were scum."

This is just WIFOM. You could have easily orchestrated Mastin's lynch as scum, and there are several good reasons why scum you would do so.

If you mean loaded as in 'held accountable to my answer come lylo' then I'll clarify... This is because I firmly believe that any talk in Lylo is a waste of time and gets scum an easy chance to confuse the person who has to do the hammer vote and I want to avoid that as much as I can. That's why I'm asking your opinion now as opposed to anything being said the next day.

Call me closed minded but this works for me.

Lylo is normally the best time to reconsider your stances, as you don't want to lynch incorrectly. Locking people into reads by that point could prove disasterous.

If I answer as I did people can shout that I'm scum trying to be unreadable
If I answer with a name then people can shout that I'm trying to set up lynches.

On top of that

if hodge weren't scum and I do reread and come to a different conclusion than that name, I get attacked for that. An explicit list that was made on a false axio can only hurt.

It's a "How long ago did you stop beating your wife?" type question.

Except Hana's question is not a loaded question. She's asking a simple question about your reads via PoE. She's not asking "Who did you shoot n2?", of which there is no correct answer.

[Bulbazak]

Dawww...

[Bulbazak]

Sorry about all that, Mastin. You really had me paranoid this game.

[Bulbazak]

One last piece of advice, and only because I disagreed with Mastin on this, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, SELF VOTE. It never turns out well. Some players can get away with it, but most of the time the move will backfire tremendously on you. Mastin's right, circumstances are never so bleak that you can't turn things around. Trust me, I've been able to turn large wagons on me around as both town and scum. Never give up, and never, ever, ever, self vote.