Newbie 1452: You Only Van Twice (Over!)

[alongtimeago]

VOTE: SatanHellYeah

[alongtimeago]

1. I live in Central Standard Time, which is I think -6:00.
2. The goal is to post at least once every day, if not more.
3. This will be my first non-face to face game, and my first game of Mafia period in a few years.
4. I think that lynching liars is something that I would be down for unless they had a reallly good reason for lying. As for lurkers, I'm not sure what I think of lynching them since I've never been able to experience it before.
5. I generally enjoy having any role that lets me gain information my opponents don't have, whether it's being in the Mafia myself or having a position like Cop or Soda Jerk that can give me info.

[alongtimeago]

What made you decide to change your vote SHY? Was it still RVS, or did he do something that you found scummy?
Also, a question for everybody. When do you think is the right time to move out of RVS and into serious voting?

[alongtimeago]

Interesting; I was saying that it "goes without saying" from the point of view (pov) of someone referring to themselves. We all know our own alignments, and town will proclaim town because they are town and scum will proclaim town because not doing so is as rational as self voting (which I agree with all the ICs when they say its almost never a good idea in newbie games).

Under what circumstances do you think it would be acceptable to perform a self-vote?

You however have taken my comment to be from the pov of scum referring to you. The spin is subtle but there: you are implying that there is some scummyness to my comment (hell I fell for it on first take, almost said "hah, your right that does sound a bit scummy!") when there isn't if you look at it from the intended pov.

I don't agree with this at all. To me, jon's reply simply answered your question based on how he interpreted "goes without saying." When I read your reply to jon, it seems like you pounced on one sentence to use as the reason for your vote, rather than the actual meaning of his reply. Also, if that is how you plan on establishing your POV when you ask questions this game, could you please elaborate your questions a little more so that those of us without telepathy have a chance of figuring out what you're intending to ask?
I do agree with you on the need for votes this early on so, since you are currently the scummiest looking player to me because of this little exchange,
VOTE: Lootifer

[alongtimeago]

I don't really see how whether or not something is a "claim" is dependent on proof. But you guys would know more about that than me.

What did you mean with that last sentence?

[alongtimeago]

I can see where you are coming from Loot, the whole thing to me just looks like bad communication on both ends. However, I have no better place to put my vote, so for now it stays.

[alongtimeago]

[*]As I mentioned before, I want more content from Rach. I'd also like to hear more from alongtimeago and Mala. @you three amigos: Who is your strongest town read right now and why?

Right now, my strongest town read lies on TAM. He seems to have been actively scumhunting this whole time, although most of it was directed at you and your unwillingness to RQS.

Spoiler: in which I do TAM's scumhunting for him

In post 30, jon_h61 wrote:
I think it's more likely to come from scum not wanting to give away anything that can be used against them

What exactly could one give up? GMT-6? That's such a scummy timezone! You are reaching.

Though phrased flippantly, this is accurate.

TAM wrote:
and am slightly suspicious of him being an alt... Which makes me even more curious for his answers to the RQS because as some of you may have noted... I did ask how many games have been played and it would be intriguing to learn if he had played any offsite.

First of all, thank you. I'm not an alt though and I've never played offsite nor IRL. I have a grand total of 237 posts to my name. I want this to be a fun game and I'm looking forward to improving my play.

This essentially answers your # of games played question. I honestly have no idea. I'd have to look at my post history just the same as you would. Probably 4 (including 2 currently).

TAM wrote:
I EXTREMELY dislike AbboTT's play

I get that, I'm sorry. As I've said elsewhere. I'm not here to make friends. I'm here to murder liars.

Again, not another bulleted response, but it gets to the spirit of your lynch all liars question. Townies rarely have reason to lie. Should that be an instalynch? No. I generally disapprove of all policy lynches. See my post 16 where you and I discussed this on page one.

Why did you refer to the answers of your RQS as scumhunting?

[alongtimeago]

@ jon:

Firstly by stalemate I mean:

I imagine

(playing inexperience card again...) that - this is my take when considering it objectively - good quality, experienced players will quickly reach endless cyclic or WIFOM debates as no one will be giving away obvious scum tells.

I feel like if the players are all good enough to not give off any scum tells, they will have developed a plan for what to do if they don't have scum reads on any players. And even if that fails, there is always NKA, though that could lead to even more WIFOM. Speaking of NKA though...

(Trust me, you want to see WIFOM, wait for me to analyze a night kill that isn't me... I've mastered it into an Art form.)

Does this mean that you view yourself as very talented at night kill analysis or really bad? Would you recommend it in a game like this with mostly relatively new players? And, most importantly, how

does

NKA work? I've never been able to understand how people manage to reach any conclusions from it without having outside information i.e. Cop etc.

[alongtimeago]

Right now, my strongest town read lies on TAM. He seems to have been actively scumhunting this whole time, although most of it was directed at you and your unwillingness to RQS.

I read that slightly differently. To me TAM's argument is based on AbboTT being obtuse/evasive. As I mention earlier this obtuse/evasive behaviour is fairly obvious; while it's WIFOM, I just get a feeling that TAM (rather than AbboTT) is coming across more scummy in their their back and forth dialog.

When I look at their back and forth it seems like it started out as TAM trying to scumhunt but then he just got a bit frustrated with AbboTT and it degenerated into just an argument.

Oh and NKA is night kill analysis?

Yes it is.

[alongtimeago]

Also what is your exact read on Mala... Because even for this point in the game, You seem a bit narrow in scope, there should be more null reads. The fact that you have so many town reads so early is not something I find particularly town by nature.

For me it's easier to make a town circle than put together a pair of mafia.

If there is 9 people in the game and 7 of them are town, why would I not make a list of 7? The alternative is I could of just listed two people I thought were mafia. It's the exact same thing. Simply it was the way I put the game together in my mind. There are a number of people I threw in the list who I'm unsure about but there is no reason to kick them out of the circle without some input from Rach and Mala. I simply want the two of them to step up as town and then we can see who jumps.

I'm not sure I understand your meaning here. If creating a town list is easier than creating a scum list, why do you find creating the town list easier? After all, by your logic the two are essentially one and the same.

[alongtimeago]

Time's posts have been more focused on the current hunt topic. He seems to be asking the right questions (86, 52, 41), but he's not sharing the conclusions he is drawing from those questions. At least, he's not telling us how the answers he gets is moving him towards his conclusions. @Time: What did you think of my answer to the question you posed in 86?

In the end, my #79 reads stand on all three of them. I want more.

• More posts from Rach
  
• More effort from Mala
  
• More sharing from Time

Why did you refer to the answers of your RQS as scumhunting?

The word "scumhunting" in this context could be swapped out for "homework" or "job."

I assume that's why he wants the information, to hunt scum. I compiled the information for him.

I'm still not totally sure why you chose to use scumhunting as the topic of your list. Was it meant to imply that TAM wasn't actually scumhunting and was just trying to argue with you for argument's sake or am I looking too deep and there's just some implication I'm missing?

[alongtimeago]

No, I wasn't being sarcastic or anything like that. A little but smart-assed, though. I was compiling some information for him so he didn't have to track it down himself.

I assumed the reason he wanted the information was to aid his read on me i.e., to aid his scumhunting endeavors.

I think you're just reading into it too closely. I actually thought to myself as I typed it, "Somebody won't like this. Not sure who, but somebody won't." Lol

If there is a chance for me to read to much out of something the odds are that I will take it. Although, I still think that that was a weird way of phrasing you list.

[alongtimeago]

Isn't lurking a generally accepted scumtell? Even if it's not a scumtell, it needs to be punished. Inversely, I don't see how anybody could argue that low post count/content could be considered pro-town.

Mala is sinking into the background to me. I don't know if she's doing that on purpose or not. Either way, I'm happy leaving my vote here for now.

In the case of Rach, no it's not a scum tell. She is known to be very very lurky as either alignment. I mean she does super lurk as scum, but her posts are different when she does it when she's town.

If this is what you view as normal lurking, I would be horrified to see what you would classify as "super lurking". Also, from which of her three posts are you getting your pro-town vibe from? Her post post 22 is just RQS answers, post 31 is just her bantering with someone she thought she remembered from a previous game, and post 100 is her complaining about how lynchable she always seems and promising future activity. Which of these posts is making you think 'town'?

[alongtimeago]

I never said I had a pro-town vibe on her. I never stated I had a town or a scum read on her. She's null and I have said that quite a bit i my prior posts and that I need to see more from her.

Ah my mistake I misread that as saying this game she was pro-town.

I have only skimmed and will dedicate some more time tomorrow to a proper analysis. But I will say this: I am getting annoyed with the non-readable (for me at least) content from Abbott, tam and a small amount from time in 115 on lurking. This is the second time its happened (first one for me being the rqs back and forth) and all I can think of is you guys are straying into dialog that isnt useful on purpose.

When you say unreadable, what do you mean? Do you mean it doesn't make sense to you why we are discussing it, or do you mean you literally can't understand what we're talking about?
Also, could someone who has played in these games before tell me, is it common for games to just go dead like this over weekends?

[alongtimeago]

Sorry I haven't been postin the last few days, there has been a lot of snow in my part of the country and I haven't had alintermet access for the last few days. My connection should be more stable now, so later i will be able to post a little later tonite.

[alongtimeago]

Sorry I haven't been postin the last few days, there has been a lot of snow in my part of the country and I haven't had alintermet access for the last few days. My connection should be more stable now, so later i will be able to post a little later tonite.

I should never post from my phone ever again.

This will be my first non-face to face game, and my first game of Mafia period in a few years.

What was your experience with face to face Mafia. How many(often) games did you play?

I played about a dozen games four or five years ago.

I feel like if the players are all good enough to not give off any scum tells, they will have developed a plan for

what to do if they don't have scum reads on any players.

And even if that fails, there is always NKA, though that could lead to even more WIFOM. Speaking of NKA though...

So far this has never been a problem in any game I've played. Though there

is

one game that ended in a tie on Mafiascum. I've only seen a NoLynch once, it was Day One and I didn't think even then it was going to be a NoLynch. I had voted in the morning and was sure a lynch was going to go through. When I came back that evening, the Day was closed in NO LYNCH. Suprisingly Town won despite the NoLynch.

Sorry I haven't been postin the last few days, there has been a lot of snow in my part of the country and I haven't had alintermet access for the last few days. My connection should be more stable now, so later i will be able to post a little later tonite.

Stay safe in the Meat World.

My problem with time is that my son played a very similar style here at Mafiascum for his first game. It went into LYLO, and even then Town was sweating. I'd really like to see more work from him. I'm not sure what I need from him to be convinced he's Town. He is definitely still high in my scum list.

I don't understand the part about your son, but that is mainly because unless I am misreading this, it never says what your son's alignment was. What was he? Did Town choose correctly at LyLo?

@ Everyone If the deadline was today, who would be your top 2 compromise lynches.

Would anyone like to set up a time in the future to discuss our Day 1 lynch in real time?

I'd especially like to hear from my top two scum reads.

How is this different than what SHY did when he asked who we would support in a vote between TAM and AbboTT (63)? And you called him out on that post two different times, once in 105 and then again in 131.

[alongtimeago]

I'm just asking everyone who their compromise lynches would be, or rather your top 2 scummiest players. We need to start seeing who we might be able to come together for a lynch. NL is not an option.

SHY asks

us

who we would choose between the two, and then says he thinks both are Town. There's a little cog-dis going on here. Why is he asking us to choose and in the same (metaphorical) breath tell us he isn't choosing?

Do you find my behavior scummy? If so, please explain.

The reason it seemed rather scummy to me was because I forgot how close the deadline was to coming due. Now that I see how close it is, I can understand why you felt the need to bring up making a compromise lynch. Could someone with more experience than me explain why a D1 NL is so bad? It seems like it would be safer than a mislynch.

My lack of theory knowledge aside, at this point the two who I would be most in favor of lynching are SHY and Rach. SHY because right now he is the scummiest to me because of his attitude, and Rach because I think a wagon on her might get her to finally show up and start participating. So for now,
VOTE: SatanHellYeah

[alongtimeago]

I've typically found it to be a newbscum tell if the game's been going on for a fair few days, their activity has been perfectly decent (not only posting when required), and when they get pressure put on them they go and lurk (hoping someone else will slip up) or completely stop posting, hoping their replacement will get them out of stuff. I find that to be especially true when the newb is scum, more so than town). And it certainly adds onto my SHY case. SHY has also slipped down onto the scum level with Rach.

I'd be comfortable with both a SHY and a Rach lynch today, but at the moment I'd prefer to get the now-lurkier one out of the way so we can have more activity.

VOTE: SHY. Is that L-1 or a hammer or something? I think so.

I probably won't be around again before the next game day if it is indeed an L-1 or hammer, so just letting you all know.

It seems a little bit strange that you voted for him without knowing if it would be a hammer, especially considering that he hadn't shown up to give his defense yet since he got into the lynch range. Why didn't you wait for him if you thought it would be a hammer, or at least count up the votes before hand?

[alongtimeago]

I honestly did think that vanishing was a newbscum tell. I've seen that before. I guess some people just vanish after any pressure whatsoever.

I... honestly, I was convinced that SHY was scum because of... everything, and I didn't really feel the need, although I had a feeling it was L-1. Also, nobody else said L-1 so... yep. He didn't look like he'd come back anyway.

I still don't think that you should have possibly hammered before he had had a chance to defend himself. It seems pretty anti-town to do that, especially since he hadn't claimed yet. Also, looking back it seems incredibly strange that you didn't know what if you were hammering or not, considering that there was a vote count five posts before you. All of this behavior just seems really off to me.
VOTE: Hermy

[alongtimeago]

I honestly did think that vanishing was a newbscum tell. I've seen that before. I guess some people just vanish after any pressure whatsoever.

I... honestly, I was convinced that SHY was scum because of... everything, and I didn't really feel the need, although I had a feeling it was L-1. Also, nobody else said L-1 so... yep. He didn't look like he'd come back anyway.

I still don't think that you should have possibly hammered before he had had a chance to defend himself. It seems pretty anti-town to do that, especially since he hadn't claimed yet. Also, looking back it seems incredibly strange that you didn't know what if you were hammering or not, considering that there was a vote count five posts before you. All of this behavior just seems really off to me.
VOTE: Hermy

Well this is awkward, but I forgot to put this in my last post: L-1 on hermy.

[alongtimeago]

alongtimeago, Misreps Hermy as the hammer (it was Loot that hammered.) Scumspect number 2.

I never said Hermy was the hammerer, I commented on how strange it was the she placed her vote without checking if it was the hammering vote or not, which, in this case, it wasn't.

Also, I apologize for moving too fast at the beginning of D2. As I mentioned in RQS, I have only played face-to-face Mafia before this, and when I played then, generally after the first night things started moving very quickly for the rest of the day sessions.

[alongtimeago]

That is L-1, Hermy

[alongtimeago]

I checked his games to see if he's been mafia in any finished games and he hasn't. So I see this as a possible slip because face it. He has been playing this game for a while (09) and he has obv had a handle on voting and coding the two other day phrases, but why all of a sudden did he just use the wrong coding tags.

It seems a bit strange that you would point to his being around since 2009 as a sign of experience when to date he has still only played in three games before this one. Also, it looks like his first games were in 2007, based on his join date.

Right, tis getting good!

Firstly can someone tell me why abbotts mistake was a scumslip? I completely understand why it could be an XML/HTML/etc mix up, but I cant see the other side of the argument here.

Secondly I dont think TAMs vote is such a big gambit Abbott. TAM voting you makes perfect sense if he's scum. Like he says (and surprised he didnt bring it up in 318) he has been riding you all game long and voting on you is a safe option in terms of defendability.

Thirdly I want to hear your case on Mal, Abbott. You were adamant that she was scum, I want to know why.

Fourthly I know what your reasons were for not claiming Mal, but to me you are #2 on my scumlist. That being said I dont think anyone, other than myself, is 100% town right now.

Just for clarification, that last bit is saying that for you TAM > Abbott as far as scuminess goes, right? Or is someone else your number one read right now?

Because I didn't claim and stalled it out doesnt make it scummy. Outside of the road to Rome you know why experienced players do that.

For those of us who don't know why that isn't scummy, would you mind elaborating? Because in my eyes, it looks like scum not wanting to claim a role that ends up not being in the setup.

p-edit: Wait, how does no one jumping on your vote mean that the scum are people currently not voting? Wouldn't the opposite be true? Also, I feel like you're being a bit too reckless with your votes if you are town or you're scum trying to get a quick mislynch and you're just trying to handwave it away by saying you always act this way in endgame scenarios. Also, your explanation of why you and Mala can't be a scumteam made no sense to me. Mind explaining it a little more for me?

[alongtimeago]

EBWODP

Right, tis getting good!

Firstly can someone tell me why abbotts mistake was a scumslip? I completely understand why it could be an XML/HTML/etc mix up, but I cant see the other side of the argument here.

Secondly I dont think TAMs vote is such a big gambit Abbott. TAM voting you makes perfect sense if he's scum. Like he says (and surprised he didnt bring it up in 318) he has been riding you all game long and voting on you is a safe option in terms of defendability.

Thirdly I want to hear your case on Mal, Abbott. You were adamant that she was scum, I want to know why.

Fourthly I know what your reasons were for not claiming Mal, but to me you are #2 on my scumlist. That being said I dont think anyone, other than myself, is 100% town right now.

Just for clarification, that last bit is saying that for you TAM > Abbott as far as scuminess goes, right? Or is someone else your number one read right now?

Never mind reading is hard. I totally misread this and missed you starting to address Mala.

[alongtimeago]

Because, If AbboTT isn't scum virtue of Cop-Clear (and I will check that. And be pissed if I can't find anything that would lead to me believing she crumbed her clear.)
And I'm not scum, Then logically scum is in [Mala, Lootifer, Alongtimeago]

This literally makes 0 sense to me. If both you and Abbott are town, then why wouldn't the two remaining scum players have just quick-hammered one of you?

If AbboTT or I ARE scum, then Mala and Lootifer are most likely Not scum. Mala more so than Lootifer. You however are, because presumably scum would hop on a buddy's wagon since it's not worth it to them at this point.

Again, I do not understand what this means. How have I jumped on Abbott's wagon? Also, why would scum want to lynch their teammate at this point? Why would keeping around half of their team be 'not worth it to them'?

Also, It doesn't benefit scum to act this risky and it DEFINITELY doesn't make sense what AbboTT is claiming.

Right now, I am still unconvinced that opening us up to losing the game on the spot not once but twice is a clear sign that you are working with the town's best interest in mind.

[alongtimeago]

Who the hell is AYT. God. Put a martini in me and I start talking nonsense. ALT / ALTA / whatever you wanna call the guy. Is there a shortened name you prefer

@alongtimeago

?

Really, anything is fine. Time, ALT, ALTA, whatever floats your boat.

right now, I could make a very convincing argument for AbboTT and Lootifer Scumteam.

Why? Because why else would scum NOT jump on such an easy lynch?

Think about it. A Lootifer/Mala scumteam doesn't make sense. AbboTT would have been easily lynched or Lootifer easily caught.

However, when I changed my vote, again, no one hopped on and it was again plenty of time to make a quick lynch.

Also, just to invalidate one of your other points. Alongtimeago was NOT on/active during my first vote unless you have solid evidence to prove otherwise, and since you don't, my logic makes sense. Also you seem to ignore the idea that SINCE I KNOW MY OWN ALIGNMENT, I would leave out the option that you brought up. Now what interests me is. Why you are unwilling to assume your precious AbboTT is scum WITHOUT me. I noticed you didn't even cross out the second option. It's because you know Mala/alongtimeago to be town.

First of all, I'm reasonably certain that Lootifer did cross off the second option in his post. More importantly, these two quotes seem pretty contradictory to me. In one you use the fact that nobody quickhammered as a sign that both players you voted were scum, and yet in the next quote you bash Lootifer for not providing evidence that I was online during your first vote, without providing any evidence of your own that I never logged on during that time. Going back to the first post, by that same logic you need to provide evidence to all of us that every player was online when such an 'easy lynch' was available to them.

[alongtimeago]

Okay... So because I didn't flip out at a dead player who self voted right when day ended makes me suspicious?

Did it occur to you that I'd rather save my breath where I can yell at the player themselves?

Also You'll notice I DID acknowledge your acknowledging that AbboTT/Me is a scum team you can see.

HOWEVER, You in the same breath ruled him out as scum if he is NOT scum with me.

So, basically. You've cleared him, since for him to be even possible scum, I have to be scum.

You don't even acknowledge that I can be right on him but wrong on you.

Please explain how an AbboTT/Mala or an AbboTT/Alongtimeago is impossible? Is Me being scum the only way that AbboTT can be scum?

Or are you trying to hide behind the fact that You've done jackshit in this game and have been called out for being scum twice now.

Logcially, if I am town, you have to be scum. We have seen more than enough activity from all players such that the game would be over if it was anything different. The only outside possibility is our scum pair are playing very cautiously and are waiting for the perfect moment to ensure their quicklynch comes off without a hitch. Therefore I am fairly certain one of us is scum, and I am 100% sure it's not me. Abbott may or may not be scum, but his alignment is secondary here: you are my number one scum read by a significant margin.

That means I am going to vote for you. The only alternative scenario is the game ends abruptly with a quicklynch. I would, however, prefer to hammer since the vote that puts your on L-1 is a useful data point.

I think I agree with Lootifer that TAM is scum. TAM continually makes points based off of what I view as shaky reasoning, especially his insistence regarding when people did or did not view the game after today started. That, combined with what I see as incredibly reckless voting play throughout today, leads me to the conclusion that TAM is scum.
VOTE: TAM

[alongtimeago]

Yeah, I'd planned to make a quicklynch strategy with you during the night, but I'd forgotten. Oh well, we still got there in the end. Also, I suppose my lurkiness probably didn't making an unplanned quicklynch any easier to accomplish.

[alongtimeago]

Looking at the QT, I don't think AbboTT or I ever successfully predicted the events of the daytime. Even the people we planned to get lynched all survived to the very end un-lynched. Also, my plan if AbboTT had gotten lynched today was to kill Mal tonight since I figured with Loot and TAM together in the last day I had a pretty good shot of getting out alive.

[alongtimeago]

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/KA27yhxrZJn Here is the scum QT. Come, bask in the glory of our poor prediction skills.