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Post #23 (isolation #2) » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:40 pm
Postby Nominull »
In post 21, TRG wrote:Drake beat me to the punch... Nominull's vote seems very sketchy. If you're gonna hop on an early wagon at least state your intent without looking ambiguous.
What was your reason for voting me without stating your intent Nominull?
VOTE: Nominull
Maybe you'd like to explain what was "very sketchy" about my vote? Why would a scum player have done what I did?
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Post #25 (isolation #3) » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:13 pm
Postby Nominull »
I asked why a scum player would have done what I did. That's not an answer. You always have a choice as to whether or not you assume I'm scum. Why did you make the choice you made?
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Post #27 (isolation #4) » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:33 pm
Postby Nominull »
In post 26, Spaces wrote:Hmmm... While I don't think that throwing a vote out without an explanation is necessarily scummy (maybe he had to go run off to do some errands and wanted to speak up real quick), what's more interesting to me is the fact that he very quickly said:
In post 23, Nominull wrote:Why would a scum player have done what I did?
This sounds a little prepared. Like, "Oh man, a mafia player would NEVER do what I did, therefore there's NO WAY I could be mafia!"
No. Anything town can do to look town, mafia can do to look town. That's not what I meant. The question might be more explicitly asked, "why would a scum player be more likely to do what I did than a town player would be"? This is the fundamental question you need to answer before you can call an action scummy, and I feel like it is my duty in the newbiegames to teach the newbies this important fact. Otherwise they will just go along lynching anyone who acts odd in any way and letting the mafia run away with the games just by standing back and being as bland as possible.
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Post #46 (isolation #5) » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:35 pm
Postby Nominull »
In post 33, Ravenpaw wrote:Wow we have an '02er here, that's pretty cool.
Hey everyone.
I have good news, Nom and I were recently scumbuddies in a game so it gave me a pretty good insight to how he operates as scum, so if he's scum here I should be able to pick up on it easily enough. Unless of course he's decided to change his meta since then, but we'll see.
In the meantime
Vote: SecondEngineer
I didn't like your justification of your use of the sarcasm tag.
If you aren't familiar with me as town, how do you hope to distinguish?
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Post #47 (isolation #6) » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:41 pm
Postby Nominull »
I had many reasons for my vote on TRG. I like to place my vote on the person I find most suspicious, and that was TRG. (Ellipses are a scum tell...) Also, I thought that placing a third vote might help us get out of RVS which is terrible and which I hate. Also I wanted to see how everyone would react if I put a third vote on with zero reasoning. (Not a reaction test on TRG specifically, more a general stirring of the pot.) And also I wanted to make a pedagogical point about the difference between weird and scum, which I've already explained.
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Post #69 (isolation #8) » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:36 pm
Postby Nominull »
In post 67, SecondEngineer wrote:Forgive me if I seem a little nervous. I've been pretty excited to play a game of online mafia. From what I've learned about this game it seems to be entirely about diplomacy and mind games. If I'm nervous, it's because I'm not really sure how to do this diplomacy very well yet (but I want to, hence the carefully thought out words). I'm doing my best to truly explain all of thought processes. I'm trying to give you all every opportunity to get into my head; to reveal as much as I can.
As I said, I'm very excited to be playing, and as it's my first time, I think nervousness should be expected. So the fact that many of you have found me nervous, in my opinion, proves that I've been quite open.
There are three aspects to the game of mafia - analysis, deception, and persuasion. Diplomacy is persuasion, deception is mind games, but analysis is important too. At least, it's important if you're town! Deception is less important for townies, analysis is less important for mafia.
In post 87, notscience wrote:If you're more interested in Nominull why didn't you vote him?
Why did yojump straight to apologies?
I'm an evil mafia scum
To be honest I kinda felt like I should have applied pressure to second after Tigris' and Jacob's posts saying i screwed up applying pressure. If you think that seems scummy ok, but i'm going to go ahead and consider the arguments more closely from here on in.
VOTE: Montosh
Eyerolling instead of explanation, emotion instead of argument.
I've been pretty quiet most of the game. I didn't really want this to be the case though. The problem is that I don't really know what to talk about. I guess I could analyze people, but I still really don't have much of an idea on how to do that (But I guess I can only learn through practice).
So I feel that I've been playing very defensively. Most of my posts have been attempts to deflect the attacks towards me. I realize this is very suspicious. Playing defensively seems like it'd do very little to help the town.
The reason I've been nervous is the same reason I've been playing so defensively. The first post I made in the game was labeled suspicious. Right off the bat this unsettled me and so I nervously set out to stop any accusations against me so I could actually start scumhunting. I assumed that any accusations I made while under fire would only make me more suspicious. On top of this I had no real leads on a legitimate target to focus on.
So mostly, I've been trying to lower suspicions on myself without casting baseless aspersions on someone who I don't have any real leads on.
This post could be taken as a pretty defensive one as well, so I'll try to do some analysis in a bit.
Yeah, we aren't lynching this ever.
Eh, it's nice that he's opening up, but "I guess I could analyze people, but I still really don't have much of an idea on how to do that" seems like newb-scum talk to me. Not gonna take him off the watch-list.
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Post #94 (isolation #11) » Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:09 pm
Postby Nominull »
Newbscum tends to be very cautious in making arguments, since they know the arguments they're making are false. Analysis isn't that hard, at least to try. What's hard is
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Post #114 (isolation #12) » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:53 am
Postby Nominull »
In post 112, Spaces wrote:No one's saying you're a stupid townie. And I read post #74, and it didn't seem compelling to me. Just because someone says they used to be scum buddies so they might know how someone operates as scum doesn't really mean anything about their alignment
this
game.
Sure it does. It could be interpreted as an attempt to buddy up to me ("hey, remember that game we were scum in together, don't we still have a lot of positive feelings toward each other based on the natural camaraderie of the mafia?"), or it could be interpreted as an attempt to seem more authoritative later when she says that something I did is similar to a strategy I used as scum in the game we were in together (despite that being pointless since she had not been in a game where I was town). It was not a neutral action, certainly.
notscience has better claim to understanding my meta, since he's been in games with me as both scum and town. But meta is evil so if he doesn't want to exploit that that's perfectly ok by me.
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Post #115 (isolation #13) » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:57 am
Postby Nominull »
My perspective on this is that you're extremely ginger about playing the game, Montosh, throwing around FOS's when they could easily have been votes. And it's weird that you put your FOS on me based on Ravenpaw's misbehavior: if you think I'm scum because Ravenpaw is acting like scum that's buddied with me, you should lynch her first, since your belief that I'm scum is predicated on her being scum and therefore is necessarily weaker.
(In general I would advise you to avoid associative tells from people whose alignments are not yet publicly known! It is hard enough to peg one scum, pegging two together is practically impossible. That goes for you too, notscience.)
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Post #136 (isolation #15) » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:34 pm
Postby Nominull »
Townreads are nonsense. Scumreads are much more meaningful. I'm more worried about TRG only having two scumreads, one of which is nullscum. Where's your proper townie paranoia?
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Post #161 (isolation #16) » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:28 pm
Postby Nominull »
In post 155, notscience wrote:You aren't arguing with me, you're taking anything I say, focusing on little key words then saying NO ITS NOT TRUE THAT HAS NO MERIT YOU ARE MAKING YOURSELF OBVSCUM
While you accuse me of having nothing in the semblence of the case, you are sitting there doing nothing except trying to discredit me.
You aren't trying to find peoples alignments. Your initial vote on me wasn't because you thought me scum, it was due to something my predecessor did that you voted the other person before and got called out for. You're trying to throw shit and see what sticks.
If your predecessor was scum that makes you scum, notsci. Makes perfect sense.
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Post #178 (isolation #17) » Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:23 pm
Postby Nominull »
The reason people play that way is because it lets them get away with pushing positions with little in the way of backup. It works better as town if you're actually any good at analysis though.
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Post #189 (isolation #18) » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:27 pm
Postby Nominull »
In post 187, Montosh wrote:
Thanks for the advice TRG, but i'm not "giving in" just yet. And I am trying to find the real scum, I think I already have, and hopefully my future arguments will be more convincing.
And if you do decide to lynch me, please be sure to reread this thread carefully, you may not like what you see.
If you have something to say Montosh you should just say it. Vague hints and implications are the tools of those who can't rely on the simple truth.
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Post #199 (isolation #19) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:47 am
Postby Nominull »
In post 196, TRG wrote:Another aspect about this NS/Montosh interaction that I find interesting is the fact that Spaces seems to take quite a bit of offense to NS throwing Drake into the mix as well. He's the only person actively challenging NS's idea that Drake could be mafia as well.
Could be nothing going on... But like I said his reaction to Drake being thrown in the mix is interesting.
*Please don't bring in associative tells for people whose alignment is not publicly known.* It will only confuse you. I hate that I have to keep saying this over and over.
In post 196, TRG wrote:Another aspect about this NS/Montosh interaction that I find interesting is the fact that Spaces seems to take quite a bit of offense to NS throwing Drake into the mix as well. He's the only person actively challenging NS's idea that Drake could be mafia as well.
Could be nothing going on... But like I said his reaction to Drake being thrown in the mix is interesting.
*Please don't bring in associative tells for people whose alignment is not publicly known.* It will only confuse you. I hate that I have to keep saying this over and over.
I understand that I just made a note of it for later in the game.
But regardless Spaces did a good job of explaining himself so it's not really relevant anymore.
Making public notes of things and going "hmm... interesting" is rumor and innuendo. It's a useful tool for scum to blacken people's names without having to take an open position, and virtuous townies should avoid doing it.
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Post #206 (isolation #21) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:55 am
Postby Nominull »
In post 203, TRG wrote:I remember you stating earlier that using three dots "..." is considered scummy behavior.
Why is that exactly? That's just how I post in general. I do have a bad habit of overusing it though.
Again, because of the "rumor and innuendo" effect. You use ellipses to leave something implicit rather than making it explicit, which is useful for scum who want to push a position without having to take credit for it.
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Post #235 (isolation #22) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:43 pm
Postby Nominull »
In post 230, JacobSavage wrote:Becuse we're scum together and we're trying to screw with VCA later in teh game but ssh don't tell anyone its a big secret.
This is really defensive over a very reasonable request, that you explain your vote. VOTE: JacobSavage
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Post #292 (isolation #32) » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:11 pm
Postby Nominull »
I'm gonna do something real scummy here, but we don't have long to deadline and that "lynch the IC" plan did seem sorta bad.
VOTE: Drake Crusader
That's L-1, please state your intent before placing the lynching vote. Drake, you may wish to claim, as we have very little time remaining. If we believe your claim we will need time to find a new lynch target (Montosh).
Let it be known I would prefer a lynch on Montosh, but notsci has stopped trying to lynch his "obvscum" in favor of lynching someone for trying not to lynch their "obvscum".
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Post #295 (isolation #33) » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:51 pm
Postby Nominull »
In post 293, Spaces wrote:Nominull, you feel like Montosh is more likely scum? To me, wanting to lynch a town over your mafia-read is more scummy than the vote-jumping and defensive nature of Montosh.
It's weird, but it's reasonably plausible that Drake Crusader is just communicating badly/being understood badly. In particular, I can't figure out why people think he thinks Jacob is town. He was a scumread when he made a list of reads and he never said anything non-hypothetical to indicate otherwise.
Yeah you know what I don't think I can do this. Get back on Montosh guys. VOTE: Montosh
In post 301, Nominull wrote:Two more votes. We don't want to fail to reach a lynch, you guys.
Well, you do if you're lynching a townie...
That's not really even true. It's better to lynch a townie than to no-lynch, because that way at least you have the information from the lynch of the townie that you can work from the next day. If we no-lynch, the mafia get a free kill and then we're back in the exact same situation we were in today.
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Post #333 (isolation #38) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:53 am
Postby Nominull »
Welcome to the game, Brian Skies! Get owned, scum!
VOTE: notscience
Terrible town is a good cover story for you to use, but it was a bridge too far when you denied Montosh's claim during twilight citing "a metric fuckton of evidence". Nobody is
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Post #349 (isolation #40) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:54 am
Postby Nominull »
In post 348, Brian Skies wrote:
105 I'd find it hard to believe that this is scum-notscience at this point. He makes too much sense.
He's making
sense
, but if sense serves the purposes of the mafia they will freely make sense. It's clear that in this case Montosh blew it and let the scum sensibly lynch him.
As a general rule of thumb pushing to lynch a townie is not a towntell.
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Post #363 (isolation #41) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:08 pm
Postby Nominull »
If I had had the information to present I wouldn't have voted for Drake, Brian. I kept thinking about my vote after I had placed it and concluded that it was in the wrong place. I like to be pretty generous with my vote so that people know where I stand, and in that case we were staring down a deadline so I didn't have an eternity to dilly-dally anyhow.
Today's lynch should be notscience. Named by lynched town, pushed hard to lynch town, called town "obvscum", unnatural actions during twilight, not helpful as a scumhunter.
That self-vote, didn't you see it? Self-voting is highly suspect under the best of conditions, and in this case he wasn't under enough pressure that it really would make sense for it to be legit frustration. If the best he can come up with to defend himself is this passive-aggressive nonsense, that's a really good sign he's scum.
Seriously, self-voting in that circumstance as town is so pointlessly bad that I'd say either he's scum or he's violating the rule about playing to your wincondition. Town would never even
suspect
that was a good idea, so either he's not town or he's sabotaging the game.
Because I hardcore tunneled a now confirmed town. So far to the point, that it is an EXTREMELY easy lylo bait. If I make it to lylo, we have no chance at winning the game.
I could explain the various reasons this is a silly argument, but I don't want to confuse people into thinking we shouldn't lynch you.
Newbies, remember to ask me after the game why notscience's argument here is silly.
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Post #407 (isolation #48) » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:55 pm
Postby Nominull »
Well, I can understand how you feel, but in theory the easy obvious lynches should be
harder
for scum to manipulate. If there is some real uncertainty about someone, scum can tip the scales one way or the other by taking sides, or even if one of them takes sides while the other dithers. Whereas if someone is obviously scum (or obviously town, though that's harder to have happen), all they can do by fighting the consensus is draw attention to themselves.
We get down to the task of finding scum, no longer distracted by notscience jumping up and down shouting "I'm scum, I'm scum, come lynch me!"? What a clichéd appeal to emotion.
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Post #414 (isolation #50) » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:14 pm
Postby Nominull »
In post 413, Brian Skies wrote:@Nom: It still bothers the crap out of me that you're pushing notscience because he pushed his scum-read and was wrong. YOU THOUGHT HE WAS SCUMMY TOO! WHERE'S THE ACCOUNTABILITY?
Also
VOTE: Nominull
No, not just because of that. People make mistakes. I understand that. But what notscience did was paint a giant sign with "I'm Making A Mistake!" written on it, in order to hide behind. Read his posting during twilight.
And then he self-voted! Man, if I ever self-vote, I'll help you lynch me, how's that for accountability.
We get down to the task of finding scum, no longer distracted by notscience jumping up and down shouting "I'm scum, I'm scum, come lynch me!"? What a clichéd appeal to emotion.
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Post #436 (isolation #55) » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:05 pm
Postby Nominull »
For me to be deflecting blame, blame would have had to have been coming towards me in the first place. What reasonable person would blame me for Montosh's death?
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Post #444 (isolation #57) » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:38 pm
Postby Nominull »
It absolutely destroys games when people replace in, make a single post to say "I'm going to read the game now!" and then drop off the face of the earth. This happens all the time and it's hugely disruptive, something needs to be done about it.
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Post #446 (isolation #58) » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:03 pm
Postby Nominull »
Yeah I prefer the term mafia to scum, but I usually use the word scum anyway, just because everybody else does. I think part of the reason people say "scum" is because "mafia" is three syllables and "scum" is only one.
I want to hear from PrivateI's replacement and I hope we get a deadline extension to make that possible.
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Post #459 (isolation #60) » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:33 pm
Postby Nominull »
hurry and give us your thoughts Irish Pope! I still strongly feel we should lynch notscience but notscience if you're town now would be a good time to make a last ditch defense case and/or claim and/or give us final reads so we know what to do tomorrow.