Newbie 1460: The Not-So InnocentVillage [GAME OVER!]

[Naio]

VOTE: snifit

you again!

[Naio]

WIFOMGUS

also, a OMGUS during RVS doesn't mean anything... if i keep the vote on him through the day, though, feel free to call me out on it.

[Naio]

oh, and no, there isnt any history other than we have another active game at the moment. you an alt, hunter? or just quoting the wiki for us?

[Naio]

I'd like to say a lot more, but we need to wait a bit longer until we have more than 2 people putting up content. no sense arguing when most people havent had their first post yet.

i will say this - not only was my post not "edgy" - but i was just correcting hunter when OMGUS was relevant. Disclaimer, i had to look it up myself to see what it stood for, and i was referring to this:
"Occasionally a Scum player will use it to cover a strategic vote, feigning outrage to get someone else closer to a lynch."

thats a direct quote from the wiki, which prompted my reply about an OMGUS in RVS not meaning anything.

[Naio]

ugh... noob games...

you guys are being idiots. literally 3 people (including me) have posted.

[Naio]

VOTE: the hunter

i meant 3 people posting "content", the other 2 were just RVS.

[Naio]

The part he left out actually supports his behavior, so I don't see anything scummy about it.

It was the fact he left it out. Like I said, it wasn't that scummy, but there's barely anything to go on

VOTE: the hunter

i meant 3 people posting "content", the other 2 were just RVS.

are you going to give a reason for your vote?

nothing more than the reasons DC listed. why, are you looking for a soapbox to stand on?

[Naio]

whoops. happy new year.

snifit, deciding someone is scum after 1 post is silly.. i figured you should know better than that.

[Naio]

scum:
snifit - trying to call out scum by 1 post, as i said earlier. get off it, i'm not scum.
hunter - from his early posts

leaning scum:
soccerboy - mostly gut feeling
fferylit (mostly due to being IC and being very inactive)
drake crusader (disagree with some of his reads, disagree with A LOT of his reasoning for his reads.)

[Naio]

Hunter, I really cant tell if you're scum, or bad town.

you wont let go of this OMGUS thing that you read in the wiki. it _literally_ means nothing, maybe our lovely SE could also help explain that to you?

as far as i can tell from snifit though, he's just playing a very accusational and blunt game, which looking through some of his old games is just his style. i'm downgrading him to "leaning scum" from "scum".

so, updated list:

scum:
hunter

leaning scum:
soccerboy
snifit
fferylit
drake crusader

[Naio]

it's the only thing you have said about me all game, and presumably still pinging me with a scum read per your post in #78.

so no, you havent directly mentioned it -- but you've mentioned me multiple times since, all referring to the OMGUS.

[Naio]

i feel low posts (which i've seen across multiple games) mostly due to new years and holidays. hopefully it will pick up next week.

[Naio]

Interesting observations, fferyllt. He's only played one game though so I'm not sure how concrete your town read (I'm guessing here - you didn't actually say) is.

@Naio, do you understand 78 now?

i understood it the first time - as i said earlier, still just cant tell if you're playing bad town, or scum.

but to be honest, even though you're still my top scum read - i'm a bit over it at this point. just not enough content to really bring out a lot of reads on others.

[Naio]

i'm back to null on snifit, he just requested replacement out of all his games so assuming something personal going on which explains his lack of posting, which was one of the reasons i had him leaning scum in the first place.

i'm seeing a very close tman & hunter team, though, comments on that, guys?
(which is odd because hunter is voting tman, but from his first posts also know that it seems he read the wiki pretty thoroughly so maybe he's bussing?)

[Naio]

Naio:

I don’t like the way he’s been on Hunter’s case about something that Hunter hasn’t brought up since the beginning of the game.

Leaning scum.

I've already answered this. you constantly bringing it up is very scummy.

VOTE: tman2nd

[Naio]

i'm back to null on snifit, he just requested replacement out of all his games so assuming something personal going on which explains his lack of posting, which was one of the reasons i had him leaning scum in the first place.

i'm seeing a very close tman & hunter team, though, comments on that, guys?
(which is odd because hunter is voting tman, but from his first posts also know that it seems he read the wiki pretty thoroughly so maybe he's bussing?)

I double ISO'd them. They've both been fairly prolific given the overall low number of posts in this game, so I'd expect a fair amount of interaction between them. Did you put significance to their putting down RVS votes on the same player?

err, i actually didnt even notice they RVS'd the same person. my read of them being on a team was from 2-3 times i posted, hunter would respond and tman would immediately back him up with a similar comment. and they were both very much pushing a lynch on me, could lean 2 noobscum thinking they could get an easy lynch?

[Naio]

Go ahead, replace him.

lol

[Naio]

Hunter, where have you gone?!?! as soon as i stop calling you out you disappear.

i dont mind the extension i guess i need more time for the tman wagon to build anyway. guys read through his ISO, look at his interaction with hunter, and let me know what you think.

[Naio]

And what's the point of 176? Have you convinced yourself that you're going to find everything tman posts scummy or laughable?

mostly, yes. maybe i'm noobily tunneling on him, and if he flips town at some point then "that ones on me" but he's a very strong scum read for me.

[Naio]

Just a quick list of my overall thoughts/reads

Hopkirk is town.
Tman seems like town and just a bit new to mafiascum’s style.
Drake seems town.
Wisdom is leaning town.
Hunter is pretty null.
Ffy is pretty null.
Xay is leaning scum a little bit.
Toonami is leaning scum.
Naio is likely scum.

I am aware I haven’t spoken about naio/why they are scum. I’m taking a break for a while but I’ll go through my case there latter.

my list is almost completely opposite of yours.


you guys are completely absurd to be calling me scum. it started with hunter misreading an OMGUS, and then me commenting on it a few times, and both hunter and tman barking at me about it. after i started to tell them to just let it go, they bark at me for not letting it go myself?!?!?

THEN other people jump into the conversation and didnt read any of the posts thoroughly, and tell me i'm the one thats still harping on it. then they start asking me questions that i keep answering about hunter's read on me, and tman completely ignores my answers and asks me the same questions again. THEN, all of a sudden i'm a team with snifit, i'm a team with DC, where are these things coming from? i barely interacted with either of them - i've spoken nearly exclusively TO ONLY hunter and tman, and ABOUT hunter and tman. in fact, going through my own ISO i cant find a single place outside of about 2 sentences regarding snifit that i have a conversation about anyone other than those 2??

i dont think it's him "not used" to this type of game, he's simply not reading the posts.

instead of doing an ISO on me or tman or hunter, this game is only 8 pages. read through the whole thing and you can clearly see where and WHO are clouding the game with this BS.

and, if nothing else, look at the guy who is arguably the most experienced, and his comments. theres a reason he flip flopped on his read before he left the game. i'm going to quote all 4 of his posts:

VOTE: Naio

Naio and Drake Crusader are the scum team. Game over.

Finding scum is comically easy in Newbie games. When things look scummy, they are.
Naio's #18 is a scumpost, so that's one scum.

Unvote

Naio's not scum.

Mod: request replacement

[Naio]

Naio's case against Tman

It seems to me like some people are taking this part of the game too seriously. We don't really have much to go on yet.

very very small scum read, practically null - why wouldn't we take it seriously

It's been a while since Hunter mentioned the OMGUS thing.

either just not paying attention, or huge scum read. this is flat out wrong and the

1st time

he is bringing it up.

Interesting observations, fferyllt. He's only played one game though so I'm not sure how concrete your town read (I'm guessing here - you didn't actually say) is.

@Naio, do you understand 78 now?

i understood it the first time - as i said earlier, still just cant tell if you're playing bad town, or scum.

but to be honest, even though you're still my top scum read - i'm a bit over it at this point. just not enough content to really bring out a lot of reads on others.

It doesn't seem like you understand it. He wasn't fosing you in that post. He was simply asking why Drake Crusader wasn't acting on his fos.

second time bringing it up

- same as above, but surprised that after i told him he was wrong he kept trying to push the point, so more scummy.

Here are my reads.

Naio:

I don’t like the way he’s been on Hunter’s case about something that Hunter hasn’t brought up since the beginning of the game.

Leaning scum.

AGAIN with the same thing, I wasnt bringing up the case.

3rd time saying the same thing

cant be him "not paying attention" so huge scum read here.

I don’t like the way he’s been on Hunter’s case about something that Hunter hasn’t brought up since the beginning of the game.

Why is that something scum would do?

Well, it would be fine if he had just accused the Hunter of bringing the OMGUS thing again and then retracted when it was pointed out that he was misunderstanding the Hunter's post, but he persisted at it.

FOURTH TIME SAYING THE SAME EXACT THING

, when i had been saying over and over that the conversation should be over and we're done with it. SCUM.

It was a random vote generated using random.org. Why would it be scummy anyway?

small scum, very defensive and why explain that you went to the lengths of random.org? seems overly-defensive

Welcome!

Early game i agreed with toonami that drake and naio seemed scummiest- why did you decide they weren't scum?

When did he change his mind about Naio?

The tman wagon seems to be a policy lynch for lying about his previous forum, he does seem like he could be doing more since he does have past experience. @Tman- how many games have you played before?

I didn't mean to lie. I kind of misspoke. The point I was trying to make is that there is not nearly this much scumhunting on day 1 on that forum. As for games I have played, I have played a number of games on the other forum, but I am not experienced with this level of scum hunting, and this is my first game here.

1) STILL Trying to push people on me, just wont let it go.
2) THEN admitting he lied. Whether it's a town or a scum, lying is lynchable for me.



listen, if tman isnt scum, fine, but he's BY FAR the best choice for a scum lynch today for all of these reasons

[Naio]

to everyone saying hunter didnt bring it up again.

It's the ONLY thing he ever brought up against me, and constantly said over and over following that, that i was scum. he didnt say "nevermind about the OMGUS, you're scum because XYZ" - he said "omgus looks like you are scum" and then every time he mentioned me afterwards, he again said i was scum without any additional information.

To me, thats constantly leaning on one stupid comment.

it's funny, because i clearly remember putting my RVS on snifit and saying "if i say 'you again!' in a noob game, its totally going to turn into a shitstorm by people over-reading a null comment, so i probably shouldnt" but then i said "fuck it" and this is what it's turned into.


all these posts, all everything, realize it all came from 2 words - "you again!"

but you know what, vote me, i'm being way to aggressive for D1 mostly because i'm frustrated and i can see why you're all trying to wagon me. im not playing anything at all like my current meta.

once i flip town, though, everyone take a strong look at Hopkirk and Tman

[Naio]

i have let this go SO MANY TIMES. i even made a wall of text explaining how many times i let it go and tman wouldnt shut up about it.

my point is - since 100 posts ago, that it's the only thing hunter ever said against me and he continued to push a scum read on me. i let it go a very long time ago.

[Naio]

post which questions would you like me to answer and i'll do so.

[Naio]

oh, guess you're referring to 195. gimme a min typing response now.

[Naio]

your questions in bold.

Firstly Wifomgus implies logic, which there was none of. Secondly he voted first and you voted second which means you think you’re using his logic against him? Explain this

using logic against who? snifit? its rvs. no logic hidden in my snifit vote.

Why.

when only 2 people put up content and its the first few posts of day1, arguing over BS is stupid and wastes time.

From a noob slot. The first bit sounds like a joke/subtle discredit. Why is voting you for what they view as scummy better than waiting for other people to vote randomly? Surely you aren’t saying people shouldn’t vote seriously until everyone has done a random vote because that would be scummy as hell.

same answer as above. this has nothing to do with how many people RVS - dont care if 1 or all people RVS, but i think trying to find scum after 1 post is silly, and even sillier when its only 2 people that have posted anything

other than an RVS.

He hadn’t mentioned it again and this is the main reason for your read on him. This is you trying to mislynch someone based on a false argument.

i swear if i have to write this same thing one more time. i'm just going to fucking quote it.

it's the only thing you have said about me all game, and presumably still pinging me with a scum read per your post in #78.

so no, you havent directly mentioned it -- but you've mentioned me multiple times since, all referring to the OMGUS.

it's the only thing you have said about me all game, and presumably still pinging me with a scum read per your post in #78.

so no, you havent directly mentioned it -- but you've mentioned me multiple times since, all referring to the OMGUS.

Naio:

I don’t like the way he’s been on Hunter’s case about something that Hunter hasn’t brought up since the beginning of the game.

Leaning scum.

I've already answered this. you constantly bringing it up is very scummy.

VOTE: tman2nd

to everyone saying hunter didnt bring it up again.

It's the ONLY thing he ever brought up against me, and constantly said over and over following that, that i was scum. he didnt say "nevermind about the OMGUS, you're scum because XYZ" - he said "omgus looks like you are scum" and then every time he mentioned me afterwards, he again said i was scum without any additional information.

Then why was he the only person you were talking about and why didn’t you ask him anything/ talk to him about anything (other than omgus theory)?

answered in #206

Of your 5 top scum: One is scum because you disagree with them. One is scum for thinking one of your posts was scummy (another you say is scum because they think you omgusing is bad (though it isn’t but it’s effectively a scumread against someone because they disagree with you)). Another is because of two things: 1.) Being the Ic-not scummy, 2.) Being inactive. This is after you admit most people are inactive and thaat’s ignoring the fact that activity being poor doesn’t make someone scum. The last you don’t say why with logic so I can’t fault that logic :p .

i dont follow your question here. yes those were my scum reads at that time, and yes those were my reasonings for the reads at that time.

He raised a perfectly valid point. Instead of responding you vote him. This is with no justification.

how is writing "i've answered this multiple times" not a response? and since when do you need a justification to place a vote?

If a lot of your read is from associative tells… Then why try and lynch him INSTEAD of building a case on someone you think is scummy?

asking people to read an ISO doesnt mean anything other than asking people to read an ISO.

He's not saying he did lie. Here you seem ok with lynching town and seem to want to give yourself excuses to come back to later after you’ve said you wouldn’t.

what?

He’s played multiple games off site on a very different site but none of this site… Why does that make you think he’s used to this type of game?

what?

Give actual reasons that what hunter said in the first place was scummy and scum motivated.

biggest reason hunter (and tman) were scummy was because they were constantly ganging up on me.

[Naio]

Who do you think is scum if tman is town?

I'd like you to answer this. And most specifically, what you think about ffery, Toomai and Xayzeck.

i dont have my reads publicized on anyone else at the moment.

[Naio]

uhhh, no.

i'll give you 1 of them, there's no reason to list all my reads. IF you want all of them, put me at L-1 and you'll get them.

toomai is playing like a noob scum but i dont think he is scum, more null lurker.

[Naio]

i dont have time to write up all my details. i said the only thing i feel is pertinent until the end of the day.

[Naio]

anyone have a votecount?

[Naio]

toomai, anything to say?

here's a handy countdown for everyone's reference:
(expired on 2014-01-10 16:01:09)

[Naio]

Unless tman or naio ccs then he's cop.

MY vote will switch to xay if there is no cc.

no cc here

[Naio]

intend to hammer. xay - any claims?

ff- i dont feel like someone changing their trajectory for their read on you over the course of 100 posts.

[Naio]

oops, i didnt end my sentence. lets try again

ff- i dont feel like someone changing their trajectory for their read on you over the course of 100 posts is a large scumtell by itself. especially since the post before your wall, xay said himself he did a 180 on you?

still

intend to hammer

[Naio]

intend to hammer. xay - any claims?

ff- i dont feel like someone changing their trajectory for their read on you over the course of 100 posts.

Those posts were while I was on v/la for the most part. There was nothing new in the thread from me that caused that change of mind. When I came back, he had nothing - no questions or anything for me. He was basically set up to point at Wisdom and say "because he said so" when I was looking like a pretty credible day 1 lynch.

um, no.

you made 17 out of the 106 posts

between 143 and 269, when xay changed his mind. also not counting a mis-post or 2 when you were signed into the wrong account. i'm a little shocked an experienced player would make such a big mistake like this.

i'm voting you first thing tomorrow. i think we made a mistake here not lynching you day1.

i understand we need a lynch day1, however my top scum reads at the moment are still tman and ff. drake is also leaning scum.

that being said, it's hammertime



VOTE: Xayzeck


PEDIT: holy crap you beat me by 30 seconds. i'm totally on board

UNVOTE:

VOTE: ffery

[Naio]

by my count, thats

L-2

on ff folks.

wisdom - if we cant wagon ff by end of day, im not ending this day with no lynch and will be switching back to xay. you on board with that?

[Naio]

i understand we need a lynch day1, however my top scum reads at the moment are still tman and ff. drake is also leaning scum.

this is supposed to read as "still tman, and now FF" - prior to recent posts, havent discussed ff since #79 and have not had a scum read on her until recently.

[Naio]

drake is also leaning scum.

Why?

promise i'll answer in full tomorrow, dont want to muddy up the waters at the moment since we need to keep things clear to get one of these 2 guys lynched.

in case you are skimming the thread, read this

- wisdom and i are currently pushing on FF for a lynch, currently L-2. wisdom and i switched from xay to FF, and if we do not get enough votes for FF by end of day, we are switching back to xay.

Current time left is: (expired on 2014-01-11 16:01:09)

[Naio]

within 2 hours and 30 minutes from this post I'll be hammering xay.

would really prefer someone hammer FF instead. much stronger chance in my book that ff is scum than xay is.

[Naio]

VOTE: tman
think this is hammer, going to count quickly - theres no time left in the day.

by the way:

Xay is probably flipping scum.
If not then tman and Naio scum team.

most uninformed comment i've ever seen. i've been calling tman scum all day.

[Naio]

ok my vote wasnt needed. hopkirk, look at my ISO and if tman flips scum, tell me why i would be his teammate.

[Naio]

Xay is probably flipping scum.
If not then tman and Naio scum team.

Not that likely naio (or you that much) is with tman.

get your story straight, man.

[Naio]

You bring up something that makes me realize my point is unlikely then complain when i change my view? Pick one.

you say i "bring up something". my "something" was "go read the thread".

why did you say we were team in the first place with 0 evidence to support it? trying to get an easy mislynch tomorrow?

[Naio]

IMO, Hopkirk shit the bed at the end of the day yesterday. I called him out on a couple things and his response was "oh I changed my mind after you have a compelling argument". The problem with this is, my entire argument was just "go read my posts".

seems super scummy.

VOTE: hopkirk

[Naio]

OMGUS much, hopkirk?

[Naio]

Yes you are omgusing.
You know since i built a big case on you yesterday and said i thought you were scum most of yesterday.
And said you were almost certainly scum.
Then you voted me.

wtf are you talking about????????????

"built a big case on me yesterday" you literally wrote 5 words about me - the only time i can see you mention me is when you said me & tman were scum team. told you "go read my posts", and a post later you changed your mind.

today, i continue my case that i started right before night1 and vote you, and then you are now calling me scum. and you still haven't presented a case against me

are you just flat-out lying at this point?

[Naio]

well this is partially my fault.

i searched through your ISO for "naio" and that gigantic wall post of yours you didnt say "naio" once so it didnt pop up. that was a real-life week ago and i have multiple games i cant be expected to remember everything

please quote me next time so this doenst happen rather than just copy/pasting without references.

all this being said, at the least my vote on you was not an OMGUS because i completely forgot you attacked me in the first place. you can pick apart my accusation for other reasons if you'd like, but it's not an OMGUS.

[Naio]

what? when did i say that i remembered 195? i clearly said the only time you referenced me was when you called me and tman a team, which was something you said at the end of D1.

[Naio]

220
You quote big parts of it...

dude, that was my point...

i responded to it fully a week ago, but as i wrote in #480, your post was a week ago and i didnt remember it TODAY. i'm not saying i didnt remember it back when you wrote it...

[Naio]

i'll vote Xay IF we agree to vote hop if xay flips town.

but i still have a larger scumread on hop.

[Naio]

i think we all want to see a case at this point. so yes, please do.

[Naio]

wisdom, with that comment, do you have any strong scum reads yet?

[Naio]

So what happened with Xay and FF because now your on Hopkirk ?

you werent there. we were dealing with hours left and a notable chance of the day ending nolynch, i had to go to sleep and wake up early from my alarm to make sure we got a lynch through for goodness sake. at that point my #1 goal was to make sure we got a lynch, my #2 goal was comparing the nuances of who i felt was scummier than another. i think the urgency is fairly clear in my post here:

we need to keep things clear to get one of these 2 guys lynched.

in case you are skimming the thread, read this

- wisdom and i are currently pushing on FF for a lynch, currently L-2. wisdom and i switched from xay to FF, and if we do not get enough votes for FF by end of day, we are switching back to xay.

Current time left is: (expired on 2014-01-11 16:01:09)

[Naio]

Who did you protect FF ? Curious to know who and why you chose that person.

I protected Toomai. Why Toomai should be obvious, and why the protect wasn't likely to matter should also be obvious.

as much as i like this, lets say you are scum.

1) toomai claims. you know he's not scum, and you know that he's smart enough not to claim a PR as a VT.
2) its a calculated risk and certainly possible to claim doc as the "2" row. if it were the other option, the B row, there are no PR's and no one could counter-claim you
3) then he dies - of course you got roleblocked.

it's actually a really solid scum play. did this happen?

[Naio]

whoops my bad completely forgot about that. here are the reads on his posts. will only quote things from D1 for now.

Is the current debate between Naio and The Hunter a chance to cover up a scum such as Naio trying drop the subject now that people have watched it go back and forth for basically 3 pages.

This is just DC sheeping others that were calling us out on our argument, and posting for the sake of posting. also i dont know how having a very vocal argument about something people are calling scummy is "covering up" anything.

i'm back to null on snifit, he just requested replacement out of all his games so assuming something personal going on which explains his lack of posting, which was one of the reasons i had him leaning scum in the first place.

i'm seeing a very close tman & hunter team, though, comments on that, guys?
(which is odd because hunter is voting tman, but from his first posts also know that it seems he read the wiki pretty thoroughly so maybe he's bussing?)

I wanted to go back to this post. It gave me a very interesting idea. What about a Naio&Snifit team ?
Looking at Xayzeck (replaces Snifit) He votes in his first post with a floppy reason. Then he unvotes and says he isn't very good at scum hunting. (that's what I believe he was referring to)
Naio on the other hand, brings up bussing and a possible scum pair in his last post. When Snifit requested out. Naio brings his vote to a null again. After going from a scum -> leading scum -> null. That could be a perfect bussing the buddy move.
This will be my point of interest.

me & snifit team is just wrong. we blatantly backed each other up, even if i were scum that would be an extremely risky move and wouldnt make any sense. grasping at straws here.

Haha.

"hey guys the reason I was talking to them like they are town is because it was a test"

Yeah, no. At least you admitted that you did in fact talk to us like you know we are town. As good as a scumclaim.

How does that resemble a scumclaim? Having never encountered one being my first game I was scum. I am curious to know how that works ?

this might just be a legit noob question, but if not it feels scummy.

I've got no decent scumreads at the moment. I believe most of the attention now is on ff, but since she's v/la there's nothing we can't really push.

I'll read through the pages and try to look for something. Don't expect much though I'm not good at it

DC had tons of scumreads, and then all of a sudden none. FF was posting significantly during her V/LA so theres no reason you couldnt have asked questions or commented on her. then the whole "oh dont mind me i'm not good at this game" comment.

How does that resemble a scumclaim? Having never encountered one being my first game I was scum. I am curious to know how that works ?

Wisdom: She talks to us like she knows we are town
ffery: False, I am not townreading you.
Wisdom: Bullshit, you were whining about me reading you wrong. That means you think I am town.
ffery: Oh that? Oh it was because.. uhm.. I was talking to you like you are town to see how you will react.

In the last one she doesn't fight off my accusation anymore, she just admits she's guilty of that and tries to find an excuse.

Well that does explain a lot! So with 1 day and 20 hours left at the time of this post I soppose that if Jason doesn't post I will then make a decision to place my vote. FF or Naio it seems to be the lynch choices.

first of all - 4 posts earlier, he had no scum reads. secondly, no. at no time were me & ff the lynch choices. seems like a weak scum play to get people to wagon us. FF i could see you make an argument for maybe the 3rd most likely lynch, but generally just wrong.

Toomai -
Your last post just screams a red flag. I know I posted that I don't like FF. However, I have to handle a gut scream over a possible case. Toomai you don't seem to me like your making a town logic. Your vote makes me question what role you are. You go from not very sure where to put him to never mentioned him again to a vote. With the deadline so close and the wagon building this just makes me want to see you flip scum.

VOTE: Toomai

FF wagon hop on. We gotta lynch someone before the end. He isn't one of us.

sheeping again. just because you state that you are sheeping, doesnt mean that you arent. and forcing the "one of us" seems... forced?

yeah. I had actually thought at one point to ask for the graph tomorrow because working up a quick day 1 graph wouldn't take as much effort, especially given there were only 8 or so pages at the time.

What do you mean by graph? :0

Not really much to say. Honestly, I don't believe his claim to be a town cop. I would feel it would be too risky to claim the power role. However, no one else has counter claimed it so I guess it leaves things up in the air. Judging by how I feel Toomai has played I don't enjoy the idea of going into day 2 with a town who posts like a scum but, may actually be a scum but, has claimed cop.
If he is the town cop. This would leave then a possible tman lynch or naio <- my personal feeling.
What do ?

you dont believe his claim, and in the next sentence say it would be too risky to claim? this is just a wishy washy post that says nothing except the fact that you flip flopped. and again, pushing the me or tman vote when i was never on the table.

[Naio]

honestly, i'd defend myself more from Hop if he didnt do this SAME EXACT THING yesterday, and then proceed to flip flop and vote 4 different people over the course of the next 2-3 pages.

if this is your way of scumhunting i cant say i think it's effective. gonna do a brief skim of your meta and see if anything pops out.

[Naio]

so, a quick 5 minute read of hopkirks meta.. is that unfortunately unless i'm missing something, you've been town in every finished game i could find.

unfortunately, you were vote-happy in pretty much all your games so i dont think that is telling us anything. the biggest difference comparing your other games to this one is that you generally send very few long posts, where in this game its how you kicked it off and how you seem to be continuing to play.

[Naio]

I'm making longer posts for a reason. As i said at the end of my last game-death note- i found 2/3 of the scum team and was voting them throughout but nobody believed me. Thus i'm trying a new play style that should be more effective at getting scum lynched.

I am not saying you're scum for flip flopping. my vote switches when it is needed elsewhere.

your new playstyle is to vote a bunch of people hecticly and sling accusations around as fast as possible?

i can almost guarantee you will be able to, at the end of this game, say "look see i was voting the scum team!" - because you've been voting everyone.

[Naio]

ok hopkirk if there is any chance that you're actually town (doubtful) you just have to settle down. stop voting people non-stop and stop changing your top scum reads after every 5 posts. as i said here:

i can almost guarantee you will be able to, at the end of this game, say "look see i was voting the scum team!" - because you've been voting everyone.

[Naio]

Naio, wanna vote drake?

what makes you think he's not just noob town?

[Naio]

The fact that someone has to be scum.

I don't get why you ask this after making a case on him.

i made my case, i'd like to see your reads on him. dont think thats too much to ask.

[Naio]

My read on him is scum.

you called me out yesterday for not wanting to explain my reads, now you're doing the same thing.

drake didnt even make your top scumlist yesterday, and we didnt list any of your top 3 scum.

even though i feel you're town, you're not giving us much to go on here.

who are your top 3 scum at this point, and at least a brief explanation why, other than "they are scum".

thanks

[Naio]

we didnt list any of your top 3 scum.

"list" should be "lynch". i'm tired. also, awesome double post.

Mod - feel free to clean up the double post. thanks

fixed -IV

[Naio]

did i just go from town to definite scumteam with ff in 6 posts of you talking to yourself?

anyway - regarding ff - had a strong read on her in 335 once i caught her tripped up in her V/LA excuse, and then she followed up with reasoning behind it which i agreed with.

the only reason i havent spoken about ff is i've been speaking about hopkirk after his much more scummy actions right before N1.

and as far as being a team with ff, i dont usually like to defend something so acutely, but i feel that my 335 post and the posts following would be a miserable scumteam play with ff. i have no idea why i'd spend most of my post yelling at FF instead of just hammering someone i would have known was town and could have easily hammered without repercussions. and then i immediately switch to FF and push FF over the next few posts.

honestly, i think it would be easier to make a case for me being a teammate with anyone else in this entire game other than FF. i actively tried to get her lynched D1, at this point i dont feel comfortable lynching a claimed PR especially since there was no counterclaim. the reasoning i put together in 507: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5613325 could have happened, but for this case i'm going to defer to ockham's razor

[Naio]

Considering how hard i pushed on FF at the end of D1, when instead of just putting my vote on Xay and convincing 1 more person to vote xay - i cant see anywhere you think that i'm team with ff.

[Naio]

so here's my dilemma. i know i'm not scum, and i'm leaning towards FF being scum at this point. but no matter what way i move forward, i think i hurt us.

So here are my options:

1) I push for FF being scum
1a) FF flips town - I'm cleared of scumblock, but we've mislynched and

Result: MYLO with 2 scum remaining

1b) FF flips scum - i have to make a case for myself tomorrow and prove we are not a team, but unlikely that i can win over unless there is a blunder by the scum team.

Result: MYLO with 1 scum remaining OR naio clears name

2) I push for FF being town
2a) FF flips town - I'm cleared of scumblock, but we've mislynched and

Result: MYLO with 2 scum remaining

2b) FF flips scum - I have nearly zero chance of clearing my name from being on the scumteam tomorrow.

Result: MYLO with 1 scum remaining

3) FF doesnt get lynched
3a) i get mislynched

Result: MYLO with 2 scum remaining

3b) we lynch someone else

Result: multiple

so basically, if FF doesnt flip scum we're likely screwed anyway, but i literally have no idea what my play should be at this point since all plays lead to crappy options.

[Naio]

Why do you think Ffy flipping town clean you?

Neither of you are but eh.

because as far as i can tell, the only real scum read on me is that i would be scum with ff. even though i pushed for a lynch yesterday.

[Naio]

I've got to admit this "if we do not get enough votes for FF by end of day, we are switching back to xay. " was well played. Kinda.

i assume you're saying this was a good TOWN play. the motivation behind this was that i didnt want to end D1 without a lynch, when there were hours left and there was certainly a chance of that happening if the FF push didnt go through.

[Naio]

i want to intent to hammer here, but i cant tell if it hurts us. all the reasons i listed in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5616244

here's my thought process. If FF doesnt flip scum, we're at MYLO either way with 2 scum left.

if FF flips scum, and i had a part of the voting process, my case tomorrow for the fact that i'm not on a scum team will be easier to convince people of. if i dont vote at all or push a town case on ff, and they flip scum, we get in mylo either way.

so talking through it helped me i guess. if i have to choose a result, i'm going to choose the chance of MYLO with 1 scum and a chance to defend myself, over the certainty of MYLO with 2 scum or even certainty of MYLO with 1 scum.

so all that being said,

intent to hammer

and nacho i'll give you the time as you requested to catch up.

[Naio]

If this fails we all know I'm getting quick lynched in mylo tomorrow. Nacho dies at night then scum wins. (Possibly drake being lynched instead of me but same concept)

too late to cover youself, bud

If you're voting because you think it makes you look town then you're not playing like town.

you are starting to frustrate me because it's clear you're not reading the game. this is the 4th or 5th time this has happened. i wouldn't mind if you were pushing an agenda with the way you post, but it's extremely clear you're just skimming through posts and making everyone else explain things to you multiple times. you really have to read the game, man.

i dont think i could be more clear for the purpose of my vote, considering i've laid out my entire thought process, and well as worked through all the possible scenarios. if FF is lynched and flips scum, the possible scenario is better than any of the other likely scenarios (aka, comparing mylo's)

[Naio]

yeah of course VT.

you guys are making a big mistake here and putting yourselves in mylo if you lynch me. if i get lynched you'll have to reread the entire thread, but you'll have to start with wisdom and hop since they are the 2 that want to vote me the most.

i'm going to be not posting for the next 16ish hours, birthday party tonight till late. if there is an intend to hammer on me i wont get to my final response until tomorrow.

do what you have to do, i'm telling you you're putting yourselves in mylo. i dont know why no one is watching my super-obvious town game.


and as far as i can tell, there hasnt been scum reasoning on me (there's been plenty of town reads on me) with the exception of being the likely partner IF ff is scum.

wisdom went from definite-town on me to definite-scum after 6 posts of posting to himself with no one else talking, and the only reasoning is FF. then the comment "oh lets lynch naio in case he's drake's partner". why not lynch the actual scumreads first?

i want to post more and explain how absurd this all is, but i have to go. honestly just read my ISO and ASK PEOPLE WHAT THEIR READ IS ON ME. judge me on others' reads on me, not just wagoning.

[Naio]

Ok so i'll preface this by saying i'm a bit inebriated - but i've got nothing more than what i've already said to convince you all that you're voting town.. all i can say is my posts speak for themselves, and i havent seen a solid scumread on me other than some random 3rd degree anecdotal comments.

i'd be happy with a drake or FF lynch today. i've gotta feel between drake, hopkirk, and FF there are 2 scum.

if someone actually wants to give me a case as to why i'm at L-1, i'd be happy to respond, i've got nothing to hide.

[Naio]

seriously, where did everyone go? need moar content..

[Naio]

If naio is town why did you vote him.

because DC is scum and i'm not?

[Naio]

i cant figure out why wisdom is tunneling on me, and knowing that he's wrong, is a bad town or good scum scenario more likely for him?

will have to look more into that tomorrow.

[Naio]

by my count that's L-1. FF,

i intend to hammer

. do you have anything else to say?

[Naio]

is it going to be really really long?

[Naio]

well i'm not going to put a time limit on it but my intent to hammer still stands

[Naio]

So you decided that ffery was scum?

given the circumstances, i feel she is the best lynch. i've gone through my entire thought process, and this is the 2nd time i've had the intent to hammer on FF.

[Naio]

Is she scum?

i'm not sure what you're playing at. considering i want to hammer her i feel it's pretty clear. she's either my #1 or #2 scumread and i'm more than happy with the lynch.

and if she's not scum, its going to be something like you/wisdom. but then we're in mylo with 2 scum so it's going to be hard enough anyway.

[Naio]

fine, then someone else can hammer as this is the 2nd time i've "waited" for FF to make a post and someone else changed their vote.

VOTE: ffery

[Naio]

i've made my cases. ffery is more experienced than me, and if it comes down to arguing me vs. her, she's going to win. after i flip town, make sure you lynch her tomorrow.

i've made all the cases i've had to make, so i guess the only thing left is to respond to her in defense of myself, which i'll do in the next post.

honestly i should have hammered when i had the chance.

[Naio]

Sorry, couldnt find a better way to do this than copy/paste.

Green text is mine.

72 This is Naio's first reads list. Around this post and through much of day 1 was a bizarre focus on The Hunter for his wiki-based OMGUS thing, which Naio mischaracterized as something The Hunter brought up continuously and wouldn't let go of, despite being corrected multiple times. I thought this level of wrong-headedness was probably a town thing.

Also of note, he had 5 players in his scumpile. Let's see how those reads develop and how he goes about refining them.

Between this post and 104 he focuses almost entirely on The Hunter. Then in 104 he throws out a comment about a tman/Hunter scumteam. Tman didn't make an appearance in either of his earlier 5-player scumpiles, and there's no trajectory at all here regarding what prompts this read though it appeared to have something to do with tman pointing up that he was wrong about Hunter contining to harp on the so-called OMGUS about the wiki. In 144 he switches his vote to tman. In 145 after I asked about the vote, he indicated that he thinks tman was repeatedly defending hunter from naio.

i explained my tman read as being due to him ganging up with hunter when there seemed to be little reason to. and it wasnt just trying to correct me, it was going "yeah, what he said!". clearly now we can see it was just noob town play

As a parenthetical I'd say that I would file newb-to-new-ish scum entangling themselves that way under “now I've seen everything”. IME newer scum (and a lot of experienced scum) are far more likely to avoid interactions than defend each other. I'm sure it's happened, but I've never seen two new-to-ms scum defend each other that way in a newbie game and it's not the first thing I think when I see this kind of interaction in a game.

just what i wrote, i think hindsight is 20/20.

182 was prompted, but it has a bit of a distancing feel.

its actually just an honest comment. and reinforcing my scum read on hunter.

193 is a sort of appeal to absent authority as a defense against the foses he picked up at that point. It's like he was grabbing any defense, however weak, to throw back at suspicions.

this is me being frustrated that no one seems to be listening to the same thing i'm saying over and over, has nothing to do with a defense, just venting frustration

194This was the huge wall case against tman that boiled down to “he keeps bringing up the wiki OMGUS thing. Which is ironic given that's what naio had earlier accused Hunter of doing.

this is me again venting frustration in the form of a case on tman

This is the point where I ask myself “It's interesting/ironic/odd/etc., but is it scummy?” Moving on.

220 The final line is a pretty good summary of his case on hunter and tman:

biggest reason hunter (and tman) were scummy was because they were constantly ganging up on me.

just as i wrote above, tman became more scummy to me than hunter at this point because of his incessant piling-on.

I may try using this defense sometime. Or maybe not. :/

330, 331, 335 – this is the kind of AH HA sequence that I have trouble sorting whether it comes from enthusiastic town or scum motivation. Someone posts something factually incorrect and it comes down to whether their perception of the past is reasonable or not. And usually someone else jumps on the error as scummy. I misspeak at least once in most games, so I have a lot of experience seeing reactions to this kind of error as well as experience retracting something I'm wrong about. This, though, was one of the most over the top AH HA's I've ever drawn. And I want to call that scummy.

You had a definitive statement that was your sole defense for something i thought was extremely scummy. since it was your only defense, saying "i was wrong" then means that you had no defense at all. 333 is super scummy.

341 This looks townish and it's one of the few things that I've seen as strongly town in my review, doing some extra effort to make sure that a nolynch doesn't take place.

+1 town

435 also looks pretty town at first blush – claims he's been seeing tman as scum all day and doesn't shade his vote as a compromise. His iso does indicate that he was seeing tman as possible scum during the middle of the game day. But he hasn't really pushed the tman lynch since roughly the time of that wall.

+2 town

i had very minimal support on a tman lynch for the majority of the day, and trying to wagon him myself with hours left i didnt feel was a possibility. as i wrote in my post, i was very happy with the tman lynch.

Which brings us to day 2, and his initial vote on hopkirk. This vote has an omgusy quality.
469 is a reflect back on the last few posts of day 1:

Xay is probably flipping scum.
If not then tman and Naio scum team.

Not that likely naio (or you that much) is with tman.

get your story straight, man.

It's a decent catch of an inconsistency. In fact it reminds me a little of his AH HA post to me.

You bring up something that makes me realize my point is unlikely then complain when i change my view? Pick one.

you say i "bring up something". my "something" was "go read the thread".

why did you say we were team in the first place with 0 evidence to support it? trying to get an easy mislynch tomorrow?

And further detail.

IMO, Hopkirk shit the bed at the end of the day yesterday. I called him out on a couple things and his response was "oh I changed my mind after you have a compelling argument". The problem with this is, my entire argument was just "go read my posts".

seems super scummy.

VOTE: hopkirk

I'm really not seeing what was scummy about hopkirk reviewing and then changing his mind. Would it have been better if “go read my posts” had been ignored?

it wasnt "reviewing" it was simply "read". making accusations without making sure your accusation has ground is a scummy play in my book. town would make sure what they were saying had some basis behind it.

480 I liked this admission of error, didn't care much for the blame aspect “quote me next time so this doesn't happen”. It's a level of belligerence that seems out of synch with hopkirk's offense.

+2.5 town

487 setting up mislynches?

nope. just re-affirming my scumread on hop

526 I like that he did some meta research on his main scumspect.

+3.5 town

547 This exchange is interesting. Naio had just posted a Drake analysis and Wisdom asked him if he'd vote Drake, and he wants to know why Wisdom doesn't think he's noobtown. 549 He asks Wisdom for his own Drake read. 551 is good pushback too.

+4.5 town

565 Makes a decent case for not being scum with me. And I agree, we're not a scum team, whether he is scum or not.

+5.5 town

595 This post is something that only I can see from the perspective of knowing my alignment. I can't even fathom this as any sort of genuine scumhunting. If he's town and thinks I'm scum then he should have been pushing for my lynch. End of story. 614 gives me more of the same vibe of being too concerned about appearances and I feel like he sees my townflip as a survival mechanism more than anything here.

684 he doesn't call me scum, he calls me “the best lynch”.

And, as my wagon inexplicably (to me anyway) minisculy softens, he votes me to bring the count back to L-1.

because i just realized that was not the 2nd, but the 3rd time in this game i was about to hammer you and someone else wussed out. i want to lynch you right now.

[Naio]

so, in conclusion, you raise almost as many townreads as you do other comments on my play.

if you guys want to vote me, read through the 5 and a half townreads that the one person who would REALLY want me to be scum gave me, and then tell me if you still want to lynch me.

[Naio]

It's a rare and usually quite short ISO where there are no posts whatsoever that could come from a town-mindset. In working through your ISO, for my own read-confidence I weighed everything, not just the posts I felt showed survival-oriented scummy mindset. But I'm not going to overlook that kind of stuff. I've lost two recent games because I went with the preponderance, and discounted the handful of posts that indicated scum.

my argument isnt that there arent posts that could be scummy. my argument is that overall, i've played a significantly stronger town-game than i have made scum-looking posts.

[Naio]

well that sucks. GL town.

i've made my cases. ffery is more experienced than me, and if it comes down to arguing me vs. her, she's going to win. after i flip town, make sure you lynch her tomorrow.

[Naio]

<<<<<<<< why didnt you just look at my user avatar!!!
<<<<<<<<

[Naio]

<<<<<<<< why didnt you just look at my user avatar!!!
<<<<<<<<

[Naio]

i am VT. no reason to lie at this point.

totally think ff is scum, and we (well, you guys) are sitting at mylo with 2 scum.

clearly my mistake for leaving FF at L-1 with intent to hammer for so long. sorry guys

[Naio]

sincerely and honestly though, clap clap for FF flipping the wagon onto me. i was the most obvious choice, but still, from having two intents to hammer and then escaping the day - i applaud your maneuvering.

i was just thinking what a dick move it would be if i were actually scum and wasting everyones time. cant tell if dick move, or hilarious.

[Naio]

Naio seems like the kind of person who'd continue saying he was town at this point.

that hurts you dont even know me bro!

[Naio]

Why aren't you posting your other scum reads?

i think it hurts town more than helps it. make scum reads which will carry more weight as i'll be confirmed town, will help scum craftily set up a shot at night, making it harder to actually find your partner.

so stop pushing me to do it!

[Naio]

FINE!
you are my top scumread. drake is your partner. hopkirk is a meanie and confusing but town. wisdom is either awesome town or awesome scum but i'd say town. others TBD


that being said, i'll stop spamming the thread - i'm out guys, time to hang out in the dead QT with my 2 biggest scumreads that ended up flipping town. awkwarrrddddd

thanks for the fun game mod & everyone. byeeeeee

[Naio]

good game guys. never suspected nacho, fantastic scum game.

also, i told you guys that ffery would just out-talk me in D2 need more practice...