Newbie 1480 (Game Over)

[hayatoBL]

Hi everyone.

VOTE: HighShroomish

A random vote. Not a serious one!

[hayatoBL]

1. How much experience do you have with mafia, be it irl or forum based?

2. What's your opinion on Lynch all Lurkers/Liars? (yes, I know I hit on these in the intro)

3. How much of a day's time is right to use (ie, the whole day or is it okay to end it short)?

4. Which alignment do you prefer to play as?

1. I started September last year and haven't played mafia elsewhere. That means some of these newbies might have more experience than me.

2. I can think of several lies that might be town-beneficial. It depends on the situation really. I won't lynch lurkers unless it's MyLo/LyLo.

3. I'd say use the whole day. Unless there is nothing more to discuss.

4. Definitely town. It's more relaxing.

[hayatoBL]

I won't lynch lurkers unless it's MyLo/LyLo.

What?

I'm not sure what you want. Can you be less vague with your question, please?

I understand playing lurky is anti-town. But so is lynching lurkers. Playing lurky is non-allignment indicative. Although *all* of the lurkers I played with up until now were town, I believe it's either a playstyle or stems from
a silly strategy that PR should play lurky.

So, yes. I'm against lynching lurkers, but I don't encourage town to play lurky. So, don't do it.

[hayatoBL]

^ I'll get to that in a bit.

TCold: Let's try to win this time, shall we?

[hayatoBL]

Well, I've managed to salvage some of my post.

TCold: I really hope you're town this game. Let's see what you've learned over the months.

Enough small talk.

There were questions regarding my stance on liars and lurkers.

Liars

Spoiler:

An example of a bad lie. You're a VT. You're at L-1. You thought it would be a good idea, if you claimed PR and avoid yourself from getting lynched, thus saving town from a mislynch. But you noticed later that it wasn't a good idea.

An example of a good lie. You're a 2-shot Cop. You got a guilty result last night. So you start D2 with claiming yourself as 1-shot Cop, hoping scum won't lynch you the following day. This is a good lie.

This example is however not relevant to the Newbie games. But, there *are* good lies besides for reaction testing in Newbie games. I'll give you examples post-game, if anyone is still interested.

Lurkers

Spoiler:

Lynching lurkers (like any other policy lynch) deprives town from information. Lynching lurkers on D1 deprives us from info for D2. Lynching lurkers on D2 deprives us info on D3. So, why should we lynch lurkers again?

So, the option ‘lynching lurkers’ should only be open at a Lylo/Mylo. If we didn’t lynch correctly at MyLo/LyLo, we’ll lose, so any info we get after is useless.

Of course, priority is lynching scummy players over lurkers.

Tl;dr.
1. Not *all* lies are bad. If you’re unsure of the consequence, then don’t do it.
2. No lynch lurkers Today. Nor Tomorrow.

[hayatoBL]

Things I remembered posting:

I scum-read Eden for being too showy with his scum-hunting, and notscience for faking town-reads.

Town read HighShroom for promising posts.

I urged people to vote random, semi-serious or serious.

And I asked people not to consider me an experienced player.

[hayatoBL]

Eden: Well, sure I can elaborate. But, I prefer doing it with evidence.

Luckily for me :

Everyone should ready the Global Announcement by Kison about game data. It IS there, it just may take a day or two to sync it back up with the last backup from a day before.

[hayatoBL]

hayato

- Why are my townreads "fake"?

We'll get to that later.

Why does promising to do x make someone town?

Promising to

post

makes him town.

I can't quote it yet, but HighShroomish(from now on HS) promised a 'decent sized post later'.

When playing as scum, not only you have to post something not suspicious, but also you have to further your wincon.

Scum promising posts only serves to add pressure to themselves. What if the contents of the post promised is not appropriate later? Isn't it better when playing as scum to keep options open? If scum hadn't promised and shit happens, scum can choose not to say what he would have promised to say.

I could promise you I'll use my compulsive day vig and hit scum both D1 and D2, does that make me town?

[hayatoBL]

If there is a need to rephrase that, let me now. Something is off.

[hayatoBL]

*know

[hayatoBL]

Well, that was based on my own experience. There's no reason for scum to add pressure to themselves. I saw a behaviour that might come from a town, so I made my opinion based on that.

I'll talk about those fake reads later. I'm sure Mod will grant us more time for this.

[hayatoBL]

I'm fighting the urge to start a hayato wagon at the moment.

You shouldn't fight any urges. If you're town, you should behave as natural as possible to allow people to town-read you more easily. But you're the IC.

For one, it's furthering scum's wincon by shucking all suspicion. While yes, they could be attempting to accomplish x, shucking suspicion is really important to do as scum.

You have to admit. Almost every action can be interpreted both ways.

"Jack is posting a lot of contents. He is town" OR "Jack is posting a lot of contents. He's desperate for town cred. He is scum."

"John is asking Jack if He's doc. Role-fishing is scummy!" OR "John is too scummy to be scum. He's town"

HiShroo *might* be trying to shuck suspicion with that post, but I'm gonna say 'That's not it' for now.

I await how my townreads are "fake"

If those posts does not come soon, I'll just present the case.

I'm currently hung up on if this is newbtown or scum. The fact he's willing to challenge the IC leans more towards the former, most scum newbies tend to avoid confronting the IC.

You won't regret this.

[hayatoBL]

I think jaye is town. I can smell town-paranoia.

[hayatoBL]

In other news, Android is really an expert. He has right now two scum reads and 5 town reads.

[hayatoBL]

I think its about time I did one of these:

notsci - seems to be one of the more argumentative members, either just wants to promote discussion (therefore town) or desperate to deflect attention away (therefore scum) however for me former is more likely, so maybe town

How did you arrived to 'notsci is more likely town'?

[hayatoBL]

jaye and android are mafia

Let me guess. Alignment-tell? If so, then I think it's too early.

[hayatoBL]

By fighting the urge, it's more of a "stay in townbloc NS over scumhunting ns," based on my knowledge of how things go.

Why did you discredit android's reads rather than comment on them and try to get a better understanding for why he thinks that why?

What's to discredit?

Putting aside his reads on you, there wasn't any other reads from him which caught my attention. His reads are mostly based on activity, not on contents of a discussion. I would call them 'safe' reads, not in any way disputable.

Solely the number of his town reads and scum reads caught my intention. He had almost finished narrowing down his lynch pool, while most of us has two or three non-null reads. That bothered me.

[hayatoBL]

Eden: I'll try my best to remember what we lost and explain my suspicions towards you and notsci.

For those of you who missed those posts, be patient. They will come back later.

notsci's townreads

Spoiler:

notsci made two townreads. One on you and one on Android.

There was a talk between you and HiShroo about ‘giving reads’. HiShroo was against. You was for. And for that notsci read you as town.

Android preferred an interesting game. Also, notsci read him as town.

So, his town reads were based on opinion on how to play the game and preference. How is that alignment-indicative?

Would you have a different opinion on how to play the game, if you had the opposite alignment you’re having right now? Or perhaps the likelihood of getting town-role increase if you have a certain opinion about the game?

The same with preference.

It felt at that time, as if he’s pulling town-reads out of a hat.

I wouldn't be suprised, if it came from a Newbie, but from an IC?

Tl;dr

It felt fake.

And you didn’t feel that way?

[hayatoBL]

Eden scum-hunts

Spoiler:

You have the most word-count and you have the most post-count. That's good.

But some of those are just excessive, not needed. For instance:

lol, wtf @ Volition

If Volition is mafia that's a pretty bold opening move. Volition, you care to share any of your reasons for why you think either of jaye or Android122 are mafia?

That question was unnecessary. Jaye has already asked that question. Why would you ask the same one again?

Your preliminary reads (on page 1, I think). There are a lot of words, but less content. That list reads basically you’re saying hayato and DDR slightly scum and all other nulls. It felt like you just want to post a lot of words to look like you’re scum-hunting.

Also, you asked certain players reads on specific players. A question in almost every post. One example: You asked my reads on HiShroo and TCold. I answered it with : “No reads” or something like that. And there was no continuation to that discussion. It’s like you had done what you wanted, which is to post the question and that’s it.

This is how I felt: It felt like you are scum who was given a To-Do-List.
1. Make a long list of reads – check.
2. Urge people to contribute – check
3. Question somebody something – check

Tl;dr

Eden is hungry for town-cred.

If I am wrong and you’re town, I hope you won’t be discouraged and continue scum-hunting, however you see fit.

[hayatoBL]

I’ve done some rethinking and I think my scum-read on notscience was bad.

But no, I disagree wholeheartedly on his points about giving town reads based on opinion on how to play a game. For an example, I think we shouldn't lynch lurkers. I'm 100% sure that, if I had a different alignment role than I’m having right now, I would say the same.

And I’m very sure, Eden will be for giving reads independent of alignment.

I still think Eden is scum. Also, Android might be scum.

[hayatoBL]

@Eden

My replies are in bold. And I've cut the part about my scum-read on notscience. If there's anything you want to know about that, please feel free to ask.

Spoiler:

But some of those are just excessive, not needed. For instance:

lol, wtf @ Volition

If Volition is mafia that's a pretty bold opening move. Volition, you care to share any of your reasons for why you think either of jaye or Android122 are mafia?

That question was unnecessary. Jaye has already asked that question. Why would you ask the same one again?

Why the hell wouldn't I? I wanted to know the answer. I don't give a shit what other people have done. You'd have a point if most of my questions to people were just echoing what others have said, but that's almost impossible by definition (since I have the most words and most posts) and definitely isn't true regardless (most of my questions posed have been original content).

Question=/=content. Asking a question like "TCold, if you're a compusive dayvig, who would you shoot?" isn't content.

Your preliminary reads (on page 1, I think). There are a lot of words, but less content. That list reads basically you’re saying hayato and DDR slightly scum and all other nulls. It felt like you just want to post a lot of words to look like you’re scum-hunting.

There's plenty of content, everything in that list either stated my read on a player or explained it by commenting on what the player had said up to that point. And sure, I guess a scum player could try scumhunting really hard really early to look town, but there was absolutely no pressure on me to look like I was scumhunting, so your assigned motive doesn't fit.

There are a lot of words but zero stance was taken. Null reads at almost all the players. Two *slight* scum reads which you basically can take back anytime. I never said, that your list was a response to pressure. I said: That list is just a lot of words, an attempt to look like you're scum-hunting.

Also, you asked certain players reads on specific players. A question in almost every post. One example: You asked my reads on HiShroo and TCold. I answered it with : “No reads” or something like that. And there was no continuation to that discussion. It’s like you had done what you wanted, which is to post the question and that’s it.

Again, if I were doing this for the significant majority of my questions, this point would stick, but the fact that we're even having this back-and-forth at all should be proof positive that this isn't what's happening. If I'm just trying to ask my questions and skate by on that, I have no motive to press you for the reasons why you think I'm suspicious.

When someone post a question, there has to be intent of the question and results of the question. Twice you asked me about my reads. HiShroom and TCold. I felt no intent to that question(random question) and there was no results.

This is how I felt: It felt like you are scum who was given a To-Do-List.
1. Make a long list of reads – check.
2. Urge people to contribute – check
3. Question somebody something – check

Tl;dr

Eden is hungry for town-cred.

A to-do list from whom, Santa Claus? A scum partner that isn't even guaranteed to be sufficiently qualified to give me a to-do list and expect me to follow orders? And do you really think, based off my play so far, that if I were given a to-do list I'd pay the slightest heed to it?

Ok. I underestimated you. You are able to come up with that To-Do-List yourself, without the help from your scum-partner. I was obsessed with the idea, that you were scum with notscience. I thought he was coaching you in scum-QT.

If I am wrong and you’re town, I hope you won’t be discouraged and continue scum-hunting, however you see fit.

Good news! I wasn't going to change anything I was doing or be discouraged regardless of what you said.


TL;DR: Your arguments aren't wrong (there's too little confirmed data to say that absolutely), but your assignments of motives for my behavior don't match up with the current incentive structure of the game at all and make them significantly likely to be misguided. [and to be clear this is my best attempt to speak from a 'neutral' POV, leaving out my own knowledge that I'm town]

[hayatoBL]

Lynching lurkers (like any other policy lynch) deprives town from information. Lynching lurkers on D1 deprives us from info for D2. Lynching lurkers on D2 deprives us info on D3. So, why should we lynch lurkers again?

So, the option ‘lynching lurkers’ should only be open at a Lylo/Mylo. If we didn’t lynch correctly at MyLo/LyLo, we’ll lose, so any info we get after is useless.

Of course, priority is lynching scummy players over lurkers.

Tl;dr.

But lurkers may be scum, He was in the only other game I've played. Wouldn't your policy mean lurking is a safe play for scum?

And what the hell does Tl;dr. mean?

Why we don't lynch lurkers.

Lurkers

may

be scum. Lurking is anti-town. But lurking is non-alignment indicative. From a town player's point of view the chance of getting a good lynch by lynching a lurker is 1/8 (since lurking is non-alignment indicative), which is equivalent to random lynching.

About information. Imagine 5 people decided to lynch TCold right now. And let's say TCold flips town. What happens tomorrow? How do you differentiate that 5 players? Each of them will start saying, "He was lurking. He deserves it". People who weren't on the wagon will say "Told you it's bad to lynch lurker." It's a policy lynch, which would deny us a lot of info, which we will get if instead we lynch players based on case and arguments.

How we should deal with lurkers.

By following a set of rules.

PROTECT - town players.
INVESTIGATE - Lurkers
LYNCH - Scummy players.

Mafia does not know, whether we have an investigative role or not. At least, right now they don't. If everyone is playing with the above rules, mafia will be afraid to lurk. Of course, I wasn't going to start the game by suggesting this rules to avoid from actual scum to lurk.

Remember, we can only afford two mislynches. Lynches are very valuable and should not be used on lurkers. If by MyLo or LyLo, there is still an uninvestigated lurker, then we should consider lynching that lurker.

Consider

it but not necessarily do it!

TL;DR means a Too Long Don't Read version of a long post. Not everyone likes to read a long post. So, there's a summary just to spark enough interest so that people read.

[hayatoBL]

I cut your post a bit.

While I'm waiting for posts to come back to do a more detailed rereading and reads list, some quick thoughts:

Opinion changed on hayato; he might be RL busy, but he dropped off after saying his piece, hasn't voted his scumreads or seriously pushed for either of them to be lynched, and still has his vote on HighShroomish from the RVS despite clearing him and only him as town so far. Moderate scum read.


Right now my top two suspects are TCold and hayatoBL and I'm not sure which one I'd rather out of the game. I'm actually thinking hayato a little more now -- I'd rather kill the guy I suspect for the things he

has

said than the guy I suspect for the things he

hasn't

said. Second tier is jaye, Android and HighShroomish in no particular order, and I think everyone else is town.

VOTE: hayatoBL

I

was

and am busy in RL. No way to prove that though.

My vote is clearly still on RVS, so no way I can argue about that.

Pretty sure I've said somewhere jaye is my town-read also. And now Volition too.

Can you elaborate on what I

have

said that makes me scum?

UNVOTE: HighShroomish

[hayatoBL]

Eden is saying he wants more from me. To be honest I don't have that much new to contribute, my opinions are pretty much still the same as when I posted my read list.

However I now do feel more strongly that Jaye is town as I think he is trying to contribute as much as possible, and probably feels going back and commenting on old posts is better than nothing. Of course I'm sure he'll explain his reasoning later, but keep in mind he is new like me so may do things that you wouldn't expect.

I get the impression Dizzy is town, no massively strong reasoning, just gut feeling.

still struggling to get a strong read on either hayoto or highshroomish, they seem to be happy to continue with moderate contribution, they seem keen to not say anything too extreme

TCold still hasn't said anything to make me feel he isn't scum and Eden hasn't said anything to make me feel he isn't town.

Who in your opininon are the top three contributors of this game?

Who in this game said something extreme?
Give me examples for this one.

[hayatoBL]

Why we don't lynch lurkers.

Lurkers may be scum. Lurking is anti-town. But lurking is non-alignment indicative. From a town player's point of view the chance of getting a good lynch by lynching a lurker is 1/8 (since lurking is non-alignment indicative), which is equivalent to random lynching.

Oops. 2/9. Since we have two scums.

[hayatoBL]

VOTE: Android122

[hayatoBL]

I asked you a question. And your response was 'mushy oatmeals'. Maybe I don't like mushy oatmeals.

I will talk about it in detail, when everyone has time to give reaction towards my vote. I want to give town points to any like-minded people.


Meanwhile,

your only scum-read is on TCold. The guy who never said anything. Don't you feel like you have to try better than that?

[hayatoBL]

Did you had a look at 114? You still think we should lynch lurkers?

[hayatoBL]

@Zaicon Please prod notscience & TCold. Thanks.

Eden: Response to 115 and 121 please.

[hayatoBL]

HiShroo: Your vote is still on RVS. We have one week left. Don't you think it's time for a much serious vote?

[hayatoBL]

I don't know about Tcold

Spoiler: Hayato's post

Why we don't lynch lurkers.

Lurkers

may

be scum. Lurking is anti-town. But lurking is non-alignment indicative. From a town player's point of view the chance of getting a good lynch by lynching a lurker is 1/8 (since lurking is non-alignment indicative), which is equivalent to random lynching.

About information. Imagine 5 people decided to lynch TCold right now. And let's say TCold flips town. What happens tomorrow? How do you differentiate that 5 players? Each of them will start saying, "He was lurking. He deserves it". People who weren't on the wagon will say "Told you it's bad to lynch lurker." It's a policy lynch, which would deny us a lot of info, which we will get if instead we lynch players based on case and arguments.

How we should deal with lurkers.

By following a set of rules.

PROTECT - town players.
INVESTIGATE - Lurkers
LYNCH - Scummy players.

Mafia does not know, whether we have an investigative role or not. At least, right now they don't. If everyone is playing with the above rules, mafia will be afraid to lurk. Of course, I wasn't going to start the game by suggesting this rules to avoid from actual scum to lurk.

Remember, we can only afford two mislynches. Lynches are very valuable and should not be used on lurkers. If by MyLo or LyLo, there is still an uninvestigated lurker, then we should consider lynching that lurker.

Consider

it but not necessarily do it!

Well obviously we should protect town and lynch scum if we can.
I agree lurking is not necessarily scummy - but I do think it is anti-town since it screws us up.

Maybe I'm being stupid but I don't see the thing about info. Whoever we lynch there will be people justifying what they did.

1

Are you saying that when an active player flips it tells us more?

But if they are scum they will have defended some townies and attacked others and can attack their buddy at some point to disassociate themselves.
And flipped town may not have got any of their judgements right.

2

Am I missing something here?

I didn't know the numbers about only having 2 mislynches. Thanks.

So. I think my rules are
- lynch suspected scum
- if unsure, lynch lurkers

UNVOTE: HiShroo
Not because I definitely think he's town but because I'm not sure. Will think more.

1. Remember that I'm not a good player, but I believe lynching active players gives you more info. There are arguments which can tell us who supports what or against what. And to which extent. Not if you lynch lurkers, though. But you should ask our IC. He should answer all theories as a neutral party.

2. Oh. I didn't mean reads from the lynchee. If the lynchee is super-good as town, then maybe you can trust his judgements. I really meant the information you'll get from the arguments people presented.

[hayatoBL]

@hayato
What do you think of HiShroo now?

Still think the guy's town. I try to imagine myself as scum. Do I purposely behave like HiShroo did and get more votes on myself?

I know, he's annoyingly uncooperative and putting him at L-1 so that he make reads is a smart move.

and
It sounds from 32 and 33 as though you have played with Tcold before. Did he play in the same style then as he is in this game?

Yes, I played with him in my first Newbie game. And no, he played differently. He was town and he was not one of the lurkers.

[hayatoBL]

Mods: Can I get that underline end command fixed? ty

Spoiler: hayato's post

I cut your post a bit.

While I'm waiting for posts to come back to do a more detailed rereading and reads list, some quick thoughts:

Opinion changed on hayato; he might be RL busy, but he dropped off after saying his piece, hasn't voted his scumreads or seriously pushed for either of them to be lynched, and still has his vote on HighShroomish from the RVS despite clearing him and only him as town so far. Moderate scum read.


Right now my top two suspects are TCold and hayatoBL and I'm not sure which one I'd rather out of the game. I'm actually thinking hayato a little more now -- I'd rather kill the guy I suspect for the things he

has

said than the guy I suspect for the things he

hasn't

said. Second tier is jaye, Android and HighShroomish in no particular order, and I think everyone else is town.

VOTE: hayatoBL

I

was

and am busy in RL. No way to prove that though.

My vote is clearly still on RVS, so no way I can argue about that.

Pretty sure I've said somewhere jaye is my town-read also. And now Volition too.

Can you elaborate on what I

have

said that makes me scum?

UNVOTE: HighShroomish

In short: You haven't made a serious effort to get your scum reads lynched. After I called you on not pursuing either scum read, you backed off of notscience, maintained your position on me, but didn't go after me, opting instead to... go after Android? But not really in a way that's pushing a case against him, either, almost as though you felt you needed to be more consistent in terms of pursuing suspects and picked an easy target. I also haven't seen a lot of scumhunting effort, again most of it came after I called you on the lack of it.

Well, I did put a case on you and notscience, did I not? Actually I did voted you. I thought you were pretending to have forgotten about that.

The vote was among the missing post.

Right now, I really think Android is scum. I'm not sure if he's an easy target, but I try to lynch scummy players. I don't care if it's hard or easy to lynch.

Spoiler: hayato's post

I asked you a question. And your response was 'mushy oatmeals'. Maybe I don't like mushy oatmeals.

I will talk about it in detail, when everyone has time to give reaction towards my vote. I want to give town points to any like-minded people.


Meanwhile,

your only scum-read is on TCold. The guy who never said anything. Don't you feel like you have to try better than that?

Looks like you're trying too hard to be visible while scumhunting...

I can see where Android hasn't been the ideal town player, but I don't buy this at all. First, if this is a sign of someone being scum, how come you didn't try seriously to get me lynched back when I was pushing TCold as well? Or notscience? Second, this isn't his only scum read; he's been on HighShroomish ever since the reads list you (wrongfully) lampooned back on the first couple of pages. Third, where are you trying even that hard? At least he's actually voted his scum read and made some effort to get him lynched. Even now, if Android is your supposed scum read, you're

still

not pushing to get him lynched! By your

own admission

this is a vote to gauge reactions and not seriously pushing a case.

I don't buy it and you've done nothing to change my opinion that you're scum.

Actually you misunderstood, I have yet to present my case on Android. Stay tuned.

[hayatoBL]

Why we should lynch Android.

Spoiler: Backpedalling

Recently, Android backpedalled after he was given pressure. First he made a negative comment about me and HiShroo, which he could not back up after being questioned about it:

still struggling to get a strong read on either hayoto or highshroomish, they seem to be happy to continue with moderate contribution, they seem keen to not say anything too extreme

He answered with a very vague response, not wanting to admit that I was one of the top contributor of the game, because this would contradict to what he has said earlier:

top 3 contributors: Eden has contributed by far the most, my second and third would be hard as I think yourself highsroomish jaye and myself have all contributed similar amounts.

The same about posting something extreme. After questioned, he quickly backpedalled and said I’m maybe town.

In [ma]tters of extreme comments, my comment on liars seems to have caused debate, volitions opening statement was extreme, although he seems to have fallen in line a bit more since then. TColds lack of comments could also be seen as extreme.

Actually looking back you did go against Eden in post 90 which was unusual so I take back that you haven't done anything extreme, you did that.

In which case my opinion of you has changed to maybe town.

I think this is typical newbie-scum thinking that people won’t check his reads, thus carelessly gave negative comments without thinking it through.

Spoiler: Reopening mislynch possibilities

I agree on Volition's argument about Android’s vote on TCold. It seems like he waited for the TCold wagon to move before putting a vote on TCold. But that’s not all.

This is taken from Android’s earlier list:

I think its about time I did one of these:
Hayato - has contributed a fair amount, maybe town

He says, I am maybe town.

And then he made this post, where he made a negative comment about me (see argument Backpedalling).

still struggling to get a strong read on either hayoto or highshroomish, they seem to be happy to continue with moderate contribution, they seem keen to not say anything too extreme

Now, what happened in between these two posts?

What happened was Eden unvoted TCold and voted me. TCold’s wagon lost steam, so he needed to open up new lynch avenues. Thus, slowly he turned away from his town reads on me and gave me a negative comment. Probably, so that later when he does put a vote on me, it won't look too sudden.

That leads to my first argument, backpedalling.

Spoiler: Etc.

Overall, if Android is town, he’s a weak player.
1. He has only one strong scum read on TCold(which isn't actually a scum-read). He has slight scum read on HiShroo.
2. Didn’t really pushed any of his scum reads.
3. Never questions anybody about anything.


Or he's not weak. He's just scum and it's hard to play as scum

TL;DR
Android shows typical scum behaviour. Lack of paranoia, lack of effort in scum-hunting, made attempts to open up new mislynches possibilities. In his attempt to open up a mislynch, he made a weak argument. When questioned about it he quickly backpedalled.

[hayatoBL]

I'm beat, but I'm satisfied now I have everything out.

@Everyone - Please consider my argument. If there are sentences which are unclear, I'll be very happy to rephrase. I have confidence in this read of mine.

@Eden - If you're town, please take a step back, cool your head and pretend for a second that I might be town.

If in the end people disagree, I'm Ok, as I know I'm not good at convincing others. I'm happy as long as people read it.

Though, I'm happier if we get to put a rope around Android's neck.

[hayatoBL]

^Though I'm pretty sure jaye did not vote to lynch.

I will be happy, if you wait first until jaye confirm what he wants to do.

[hayatoBL]

Or even better. We wait for TCold's replacement and hear what he has to say, right?

Android: To your 154, you said how you did scum-hunting in 150.

Well, may I remind you, that post 150 happend after clearly I've put you under pressure, after clearly I told you, that I have something on you.

[hayatoBL]

Backpedalling

This entire thing is blowing up nothing. He said that you were a "moderate" contributor and then ranked you in the second tier of contributors... that's exactly where I would expect someone who has "moderately" contributed to be. There is no contradiction here. You're trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

1. If he's scum, he's backpedalling. If he's town, he made a mistake. He admitted it himself in 154. But it *isn't* nothing.

2. He *didn't* ranked me in the second tier. He was being vague about it. I think he is afraid to contradict himself.

Reopening mislynch possibilities

This is also incorrect. For one, town move their votes and change their opinions all the time; a charge of inconsistency doesn't mean anything for alignment. More importantly, though, the two quotes you gave aren't contradictory at all. He called you "maybe town" in his reads list and then later said he was "struggling to get a strong read" on you. Even

more

importantly, why did you lampoon his reads in your post #71 if you're going to cite them as serious evidence of anything in your post #152? This makes it really obvious to me that you're reaching -- you didn't take them seriously until it was convenient for you to use to make Android look bad.

1. Town change their opinions, but they have reasonings to support that change. Android had a poor reasoning for changing his opinion about me, which after being questioned about it, he backpedalled.

2. He called me 'maybe town' in 67. In 108, it was unclear how he read me, but he categorized me with HS, one of his scum reads. Furthermore, in 118 Android says,

In which case my opinion of you

has changed to maybe town

.

which shows, that in 108 he actually read me something lower than maybe town(null or scum). Conclusion, there is a change of read there. He read maybe town in 67, but read me something lower than maybe town in 108. *This one is very important. Can you confirm to me that you understood this one?

3. What's wrong with criticizing a post he made and citing them as serious evidence later?

Overall, if Android is town, he’s a weak player.
1. He has only one strong scum read on TCold(which isn't actually a scum-read). He has slight scum read on HiShroo.
2. Didn’t really pushed any of his scum reads.
3. Never questions anybody about anything.

I agree with all of these points, which is why I'm not clearing him as town. This is true of about half the game though, so while it does allow us to narrow down suspects to an extent, on its own I'm not any more willing to kill Android over this than Shroomish, TCold, jaye or you.

But your case against him says more about you than him, and it's not good. Your case boils down to "He changed his mind about how he viewed me, so he's scum," which (a) isn't even true and (b) wouldn't follow even if it were true.

I would like to urge you to read with a clear head and mind. Seriously. Because, now I have reasons to believe you can't be scum together with Android. Please ask me to rephrase if something is unclear.

[hayatoBL]

I disagree about "Reopening mislynch opportunities". I would class "maybe town" and "moderate contribution" etc as being more or less in line with the other (depending on what the person in question has said, of course).

My 172 has something that can counter that. It shows that Android was in fact changing his reads from 'maybe town' to 'less than maybe town'. Please take a look.

[hayatoBL]

Eden:

I read it with a perfectly clear head and mind and concluded that your case is a load of crap. It is the height of arrogance to dismiss all criticism of your case as coming from someone who "isn't reading with a clear head and mind." You didn't do any scumhunting until I called you out on it (something, incidentally, that you criticized Android for doing, or rather not doing, in the past few posts) and the bulk of your case against Android is criticizing things that aren't alignment indicative (changing his mind on a read). You haven't done anything to establish that you're someone I can trust. Why should I be expected to fall in lockstep with your case?

I said clear head and mind because I'm worried you're reading with a mindset, that I'm scum. And that will effect your judgement. There's no arrogance there.

I did scum-hunt. It saddens me to hear you say that.

Don't trust me, trust the evidence.

Why as scum would I so badly want a specific player lynched? I'm town with a very good feeling with this lynch.

[hayatoBL]

Changing his mind on a read isn't alignment indicative. I agree with that.

But town can *always* explain that change, because it occured naturally to them.

Android couldn't. Therefore, he is scum.

Perhaps, there are other reasons which made you think Android is town. Any town reads you have on him, that I could counter?

[hayatoBL]

2) liars can make the game more interesting, but lurkers add no value so no reason not to lynch

This one? I can say, notscience could be Android's partner. They planned those question and answer.

Any other town reads on Android, which I'm not aware of?

[hayatoBL]

Volition:

Looking back at your 110, you think jaye's scum. Like you said, scum-jaye is probably voting HiShro because he might be trying to distance himself from HiShro (in your theory his scum-partner) knowing that HiShroo's lynch isn't going to happen. So you put your vote on HiShroo to see what would happen. I would say, this is a pressure vote, not a vote to lynch.

What do you think about your theory now?

I'd suggest you put your vote elsewhere, because:

1) It's getting pretty late for a pressure vote.

2) jaye is town

[hayatoBL]

I find read lists useful, even early in D1, cos they highlight other people's behaviour I might not have noticed and, more, because they tell me about the reader. So

android - too early to tell but he's playing the inexperienced card hard
Dizzy - nothing suspicious so far - I like his avatar - town for now
eden - doing lots of work - town to me
HiShroo - discouraging reads is a bit scummy
Hayato - sounds experienced and claims not really - likes HiShroo for town - town for now but could be

clever scum

notsci - difficult to tell with ICs -

asked us what alignment we liked and then told us off for talking about PRs - could be well-intentioned or scum

Tcold - doesn't say anything - how to tell?

So lots of day left but HiShroo favourite at the moment for scum, with Hayato and notsci to be watched. Want Tcold to show himself more
VOTE: HiShroo

Bolded part is town-paranoia. Paranoia is hard to fake.

[hayatoBL]

I'll just make a preemptive explanation.

When notscience asked about which alignment we would like to play as, he didn't say: 'Don't talk about PR!'

Yes, his question clearly asked only for alignment, not roles.

But, people like to elaborate. And they did. After a few posts notscience stopped them and said, 'Don't talk about PR'.

So, to think that "Maybe notscience is scummy, not warning earlier about PR and waited for a few posts before doing so" is townish.

I'm not giving scum-points to notscience for this. But I'm proving, that jaye's paranoia is genuine.

[hayatoBL]

Also Hayoto seems very set in his opinions, first heavily going for me, and now defending Jaye, even though there isn't a massive amount of suspicion on him. This doesn't say much for now, but I feel if later in the game on of them (Jaye and Hayoto) are revealed to be scum, I would be suspicious of the other.

I need people to vote you.

Volition can vote.

Volition's vote on HiShroo is because he thinks jaye is scum.

I defended jaye, hoping Volition can put his vote on you.

Do you disagree with my town-read on jaye?

[hayatoBL]

You're avoiding the question. You had a scum-read on jaye because he puts him on L-1. That's all good.

But I want you to read my 190 and 191 and tell me if you agree or not. If not, why not?

You can have town reads on a person based on post X, but scum reads on that same person based on post Y. You weighted it out and try to figure it out, which is more likely, town or scum. Did you did that? If so, which conclusion, did you arrived with jaye?

[hayatoBL]

Let's see, how others react to my town reads on jaye.

Can you please give me your reads on notscience and volition? Thanks.

[hayatoBL]

Finally, a wagon I actually like.

UNVOTE: Android122
VOTE: notscience

[hayatoBL]

@HiShroo

I don't really see your argument about notscience posting his readslists before you makes him scum.

I like your argument "notscience is afraid to look scummy", which fits to eden's argument "Let others do the lifting". As it happend, I didn't see how him changing his view about me from scum to town is a scum-tell. But now I can see why would scum-notscience do that.

And I agree with Eden's 207.

[hayatoBL]

Volition:

If you put somebody on L-1, you have to say it.

L-1 for notscience.

[hayatoBL]

volition= originally his conspicuous start made me think town, but he seems to haver faded away since then. Therefore I still think town, but much more mildly now.

NotScience: in the early game, he was probably the most consistent player (except Eden) as he often presented valid arguments that help the town. However his opinion that he should be allowed to keep his opinions to himself is very worrying to me, because that would be a very good position for scum to be in. His early contribution made me feel strongly town for him, but more recently I have felt strongly scum, net result is no read to be honest,

if he goes back to contributing heavily now that he has been called out, he will fall on town side for me, but if he does as HS has done and try to avoid giving any information, I will think scum

This is a bad post.

You openly told notscience, what he should do in order for you to town-read him.

Do you really think scum-notscience will read this post and then decide to behave like HS?

[hayatoBL]

Player who wants to hammer should declare the intention first and wait for notscience to claim.

[hayatoBL]

No, he's just here to hang out.

[hayatoBL]

Yes, he is. Sorry.

Thanks for playing btw.

Bad luck indeed to get a scum-role in your very first game.

[hayatoBL]

@Zaicon - I think it is not unreasonable to request for extra time. We had site outage and missing posts, which slowed down town a bit. FormerFish was just replaced in, so he would need time to settle. May I suggest that we get 48 hours extra time?

[hayatoBL]

@Everyone

I think, we should reach a decision soon. Deciding on a lynch very late is dangerous for town. We should force someone to claim right now. In case, they claim to be an important role, we have to discuss who we want to lynch as a replacement. Just a reminder that we don't have much time left.

[hayatoBL]

Yes! So notscience is conf scum & eden is conf town.

I think Eden could have done it in a more elegant way. But the past is past. You claiming BP is quite clever though. It's believable.

I'm glad that I stop myself from tunelling you. Man, I was blinded.

[hayatoBL]

I think an Android-notscience team makes the most sense.

One of the scum-newbie mistake is that they do not talk about their scum-partner. If notscience is a newbie, then jaye is most probably his scum partner. But, remember notscience is not a newbie. So I think he knows, what he shouldn't be doing.

What's your opinion on Lynch all Lurkers/Liars? (yes, I know I hit on these in the intro)

2) liars can make the game more interesting, but lurkers add no value so no reason not to lynch

/quote]

He prefered an interesting game where town lied. Would you ever in a million years see scum say that? No.

This is notscience exaggerating town reads on Android. A way to boost town-cred for Android.

I have more, but I'm writing bit by bit in case Zaicon swoops in and close the thread.

[hayatoBL]

Ah, fuck. That notscience post supposed to be outside that android's post.

[hayatoBL]

^At first, I thought he was buddying Android and boosting town reads on you. One of the reason, why I was obsessed with notscience-eden scum team.

Good job eden-san.

Notscience avoided from commenting on my case on Android.

He wants to see first what are people's reactions towards my case. If everyone disagrees with my case, he can just pretend my case never happend. If people agree, then he can bus his partner.

Why would scum-notscience *not* promote discussion towards a town-Android? If Android is town, isn't it better to look at that case so that he can pretend to be busy without risking lynching his scum partner?

[hayatoBL]

I think its about time I did one of these:

Dizzy - not a lot to go off, no judgement
eden - seems to proactive for scum, therefore fairly certain to be town
HiShroo - doesn't seem to keen to form an opinion, maybe scum
Hayato - has contributed a fair amount, maybe town
notsci - seems to be one of the more argumentative members, either just wants to promote discussion (therefore town) or desperate to deflect attention away (therefore scum) however for me former is more likely, so maybe town
Tcold - as I said above, fairly certain to be scum
jaye - seems happy to contribute, fairly certain town
volition- just jumped in but has an opposing opinion to everyone else, therefore happy to attract attention, so probably town.

volition= originally his conspicuous start made me think town, but he seems to haver faded away since then. Therefore I still think town, but much more mildly now.

NotScience: in the early game, he was probably the most consistent player (except Eden) as he often presented valid arguments that help the town. However his opinion that he should be allowed to keep his opinions to himself is very worrying to me, because that would be a very good position for scum to be in. His early contribution made me feel strongly town for him, but more recently I have felt strongly scum, net result is no read to be honest,

if he goes back to contributing heavily now that he has been called out, he will fall on town side for me, but if he does as HS has done and try to avoid giving any information, I will think scum

This is Android over-explaining, when talking about his scum-partner. More words, when talking about his scum-partner. This is scum over-justifying his reads on a scum-partner.

In the second post, Android post a lot, and said null, a scum-newbie mistake.

Scum normally wants to town-read their partner to avoid lynching him. But he also wants to be on the wagon, just in case his partner really is getting lynched. So the safest way, is to null read him.

Not to mention, that bolded part where he tells notscience, what he should do in order for him to town-read him.

[hayatoBL]

I think its about time I did one of these:

Dizzy - not a lot to go off, no judgement
eden - seems to proactive for scum, therefore fairly certain to be town
HiShroo - doesn't seem to keen to form an opinion, maybe scum
Hayato - has contributed a fair amount, maybe town
notsci - seems to be one of the more argumentative members, either just wants to promote discussion (therefore town) or desperate to deflect attention away (therefore scum) however for me former is more likely, so maybe town
Tcold - as I said above, fairly certain to be scum
jaye - seems happy to contribute, fairly certain town
volition- just jumped in but has an opposing opinion to everyone else, therefore happy to attract attention, so probably town.

In other news, Android is really an expert. He has right now two scum reads and 5 town reads.

Why did you discredit android's reads rather than comment on them and try to get a better understanding for why he thinks that why?

This is notscience cleverly changing the subject, making me look bad and making android look like the victim.

[hayatoBL]

Your plan was risky, Eden. What if, we had a doc? And he was lurking this whole time. He saw you claimed 1-shot BP, and immediately calls you a liar. You'll get lynched.

Notscience will be free, just like that.

[hayatoBL]

hmm...I saw your case on jaye. It's possible but I would like an Android lynch tomorrow.

I think I'll consider it first.

[hayatoBL]

Actually, you can drop the act about being the cop, now. Because I'm the cop.

I know why you keep pretending to be the cop, because you want people to believe that you are the cop. You get yourself lynched. The real cop investigates jaye.

But, I can't let people lie in a newbie-game. So, I'm going have to stop you right there.

Anyways, I'm going to investigate Android tomorrow, but I'm most likely going to get lynched, being the cop and all. (Unless we have a doc)

But you pretending to be cop, gets our first-scum lynched. So, good job.

[hayatoBL]

Not lynched, but killed.

[hayatoBL]

Sorry Android. I suck.

VOTE: jaye

[hayatoBL]

jaye really is scum, right? Or are you looking for reaction?

[hayatoBL]

And there I was with jaye and his town paranoia and all. Damn it. Can't believe I was death tunelling Android all this time.



Good job eden. I hang my head in shame.

[hayatoBL]

Eden, it was a risky move nonetheless. What if notscience claimed VT?

[hayatoBL]

Oh. Forgot about that.

Sorry to you too for tunneling you.

[hayatoBL]

You use the URL tag. Like this. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=39228 or Newbie 1480

Not bad for first time playing as maf, jaye. You really fooled me. But next time, I won't be easily fooled.

I think MVP goes to eden. I don't like his lie, but it spared us from having to wait next day for a counter-claim. And his investigation was spot on. Eden played exactly how a PR should. Like normal. No need to lurk.

Props to HiShroo for turning the game around. I still think your playstyle is silly. (Giving reads only when you're at L-1)



Never had a perfect win before.

Thanks everyone for playing with me. Would play again.

[hayatoBL]

I never played as mafia with someone I played before. But I'm pretty sure my level of paranoia is very low when playing as maf, you'd catch me in an instant.

[hayatoBL]

Interesting.

About "fake reads":
Actually my accusation towards you weren't a strong one. It's very normal for me to put a couple of town reads (HiShroo) and scum reads (notscience and eden) early in the game, only just to spark discussion. Whatever reaction that came from those discussions would probably form my strong reads on people.

I was expecting for you to, in response towards my accusation, say something in the line of "My town reads on Android and eden weren't that strong. Those were my best townreads at that point." Yet you chose to be stubborn about it, and say, "No, no, Android and eden is definitely town" which would normally increase my suspicions towards you.

Unfortunately, a bad idea came to my mind. I started thinking, that you might be one of those IC, who is not really good and therefore it would have been possible for town-notscience to have a silly townreads and be convinced about it.

So, I drew that conclusion and let you go.

tl;dr
I think a town-notscience would have admitted that, those townreads were not that strong and were only your best townreads at that point. Admitting so would have decrease my own suspicion towards you.


The reason I voted you later, is because you had the strongest allignment-tell with Android. I was dead certain, that Android was scum and looking at interactions, you were most likely his scum partner. The Android wagon wasn't going to work, so I decided to lynch his scum-partne, since more people want that to happen.

In other words, I voted the right person for the wrong reasons. I was merely lucky and therefore town was lucky. But of course, DDR would have voted you in my place anyway, so it wouldn't have changed much if I didn't voted you.

[hayatoBL]

Sebastian: N-no, y-you misunderstood. I meant town was lucky with that one vote from me, which is not *that* lucky, but a tiny bit lucky.

And then I added, "But DDR (or other town players) might have voted notscience anyway". So, overall it was almost sheer talent(eden and other great players like TCold) that got us the win (and a tiny bit of luck from my side)"

Btw you're selective-quoting post game!!!

[hayatoBL]

Owh. I meant HiShroo.

TCold sucked more than I do. Two terrible SEs and one underperformed IC. This game is not a good example for newbies, I think.