Newbie 1480 (Game Over)

[Eden]

How much experience do you have with mafia, be it irl or forum based?

What's your opinion on Lynch all Lurkers/Liars? (yes, I know I hit on these in the intro)

How much of a day's time is right to use (ie, the whole day or is it okay to end it short)?

Which alignment do you prefer to play as?

1) Technically my career is nine years long, but there are serious (i.e. multi-year) stretches of inactivity in there. The only really pertinent experience is from June 2013 onward. I know my way around the game well enough.

2) The only rule that should be respected is that there are no rules, and every action should be subject to individual circumstance, context and interpretation. That said, liars and lurkers are inherently anti-town, and in absence of better lynches, there is nothing wrong with targeting either group. Liars in particular need a really good reason for lying.

3) There are diminishing marginal returns to time, as with any other resource; maximizing quantity of time used should not be a priority, as there will come a point where the expected marginal utility gained from an alignment flip on lynch outweighs the expected marginal utility of additional time. Determining that point can't be done right now; we'll have to play and see.

4) Vanilla town. Power roles handicap my ability to be a good town player, and I detest having to be scum.

I'm not voting during an official "random voting stage"; this is completely counterproductive because you are outright announcing that your vote has no meaning behind it, so no one should be remotely bothered by it. It's akin to bluffing in poker, and then immediately announcing that you're bluffing.

[Eden]

I'm aware that the early posting stage is productive, but the actual voting aspect of it isn't if people know what they're doing.

[Eden]

@Eden-Counter-question to four- How would you propose starting a game with limited if any information on the other people?

Asking these questions and observing players' answers and responses to one another. The questions are valuable, especially with a site as large as this and especially in a game with players who are new to the site and thus haven't played with one another. The interactions are more valuable still. Normally I spend a little time talking about the format to start, but (a) this generally doesn't give a lot in the way of reads, and (b) in this case, the format is unknowable unless you happened upon a scum role or town PR role.

[Eden]

For my part, I don't get disinterested as a function of my role. I just detest drawing something besides vanilla town because it requires you to place importance on your survival, which puts you on the defensive, which isn't fun. But the game's still fundamentally enjoyable and I'm pretty active in it.

[Eden]

2. I can think of several lies that might be town-beneficial. It depends on the situation really. I won't lynch lurkers unless it's MyLo/LyLo.

Care to explain the logic behind this? I see a multitude of issues with not killing lurkers as a policy and without being able to see your logic, it's hard to tell how you would address those issues. Also what kind of lies might be town-beneficial? I wouldn't policy lynch liars, but I would be hard-pressed to see lying as town-beneficial at all outside of very short-term reaction testing.

Pretend you couldn't hide it and you made a statement like "man i love drawing cop" and you are overzealous throughout the game. What do you think scum will do?

Speculating on who they'd nightkill is more or less a waste; just giving my read on the question, if I were scum, I wouldn't put any stock into what people state their preferred roles are, or at least not enough to let it sway my nightkill choice. Moot point regardless though.

What do you think of Shroomish and Dizzy's answers?

Let's do one better and get some preliminary reads.

notscience

: no read yet. Normally I'd read the excessive, showy displays of helpfulness to newer players as scum buddying, but your "role" in this game (of sorts) as an IC requires it. You seem like the type that would struggle to lurk if he had to, so I trust that as the day moves on I'll get a better read. Asked a good sequence of questions throughout -- the initial questions seem standard fare in these games regardless of alignment, but calling attention to hayate's comment on when to lynch lurkers ostensibly is pro-town.

Eden

: hundred thousand hundred trillion percent town #TYBG

DizzyDotRocks

: slightly suspicious. The posting style rubs me the wrong way a little bit, seems more like someone who wants everyone to get along instead of someone hunting down scum, but it's early and I know people who play town much less combatively than I do. It's slightly weird that she said she preferred not to RVS, but then put a vote down anyway; especially after I said the same and pointedly didn't vote, why the eagerness to conform? I like the initiative in asking hayate about what kind of lies are okay in his book though, I had the same question.

HighShroomish

: no read yet. Concerning how many games he has going all at once, but that might be standard here for all I know. Took a hard stance against killing lurkers on principle, and everything else is really soft stuff; nothing steering me one way or another.

hayatoBL

: slightly suspicious. Why so eager to tell us all that his vote isn't serious? He might as well be holding a neon sign saying "I'm trying to do something without actually having an impact on the game." Only answer of note is the one I called out earlier; answer to that will tell me where I want to go to start this game.

Android122

: no read yet. I definitely disagree with his take on liars; they might momentarily make the game more interesting, but the implication that this is apparently okay or a reason not to kill them is plain wrong. "Interesting" play at the expense of sound play is a losing bet nine times out of 10, and the 10th time is a fluke. There's plenty of other ways to make a game interesting. All other answers were safe.

jaye

: no read yet. Nothing jumped out at me worth commenting on; everything said was essentially what someone else said before, but that's not indicative of anything yet.

asdfhillary, TCold

: have not posted yet.

two real suspects right now are DDR and hayato, but no one else has really established themselves as clearly town yet, and I don't necessarily think DDR and hayato are mafia together if one of them actually does flip mafia; that's just where I would go right now based on what we've seen thus far.

[Eden]

I understand playing lurky is anti-town. But so is lynching lurkers. Playing lurky is non-alignment indicative.

If lynching lurkers is anti-town, why would you wait until you absolutely must catch scum to lynch lurkers? LYLO/MYLO is absolutely the worst time to go after inactives because you don't have any time to spare.

[Eden]

I only said I think liars make the game interesting because as a new player, I don't understand the high level strategies of experienced players, so for me anything that messes up these strategies is to my benefit.

Why would derailing good play benefit you?

[Eden]

To @Eden I highly recommend you not post reads lists until you absolutely have to. It gives scum a road map as to who might be an easy lynch.

This is a painfully terrible objection to posting reads. Anyone naming a suspect gives scum a road map to an easy lynch. Do you suggest we not share reads at all?

Also- if any one tries to get solid reads like "so-and-so is confirmed town because so-and-so was scum" I will, again, do everything in my power to lynch you. The only way I won't try to PL you is if you state well before the lynch that if the lynchee is scum, then (insert name) is too.

This is a terrible policy. I'll conclude what I decide is correct from lynch flips regardless of your empty threats, and I highly encourage everyone else to do so as well. Stop trying to narrow the boundaries of acceptable conclusions from a lynch flip.

@Eden how do you even have any reads. There were only like 20 posts at the time. And also- you call hayato and DDR slightly scummy, but then call them "two real suspects" at the bottom of the post. How can there even be two "real" suspects on page one already, even if it is a newbie game.

I accidentally a few words, that sentence should start with "the only two real suspects". I already explained what I thought about each player; feel free to revisit them.

[Eden]

Ok, that makes more sense, I think I just misread what you meant in your previous post.

DizzyDotRocks, hayatoBL, your RVS targets have both spoken in the thread now. What do you think about them now that they've had a chance to say something?

[Eden]

mafiascum was down most of yesterday, there's about a page or so of posts missing.

[Eden]

I scum-read Eden for being too showy with his scum-hunting, and notscience for faking town-reads.

Town read HighShroom for promising posts.

I asked for explanations of all of these, because you can't possibly expect to get away with just throwing that up there without any explanation.

I was going to wait to come back to it until after the site posts got restored, but if you can remember doing this you can remember why, so let's hear it.

[Eden]

*that = all three of those claimed reads

[Eden]

Right, makes sense. I was going to wait until the posts came back up before asking initially, but you brought it up so I figured I'd see if we could get that ball rolling earlier. I'm cool with waiting for actual posts.

[Eden]

Actually, now that you mention it...

notscience, congrats! You're a Pretend 1-Shot Compulsive Day-Vig. Shoot someone and tell me why.

[Eden]

Well yeah, but why?

[You're right, they do, but no one else is biting. smh]

[Eden]

Promising to

post

makes him town.

I can't quote it yet, but HighShroomish(from now on HS) promised a 'decent sized post later'.

When playing as scum, not only you have to post something not suspicious, but also you have to further your wincon.

Scum promising posts only serves to add pressure to themselves. What if the contents of the post promised is not appropriate later? Isn't it better when playing as scum to keep options open? If scum hadn't promised and shit happens, scum can choose not to say what he would have promised to say.

Promises don't mean shit; I'm actually inclined to see it as a scum read if anything at all, because if you're town and you want to say something, why not just say it? Or if you don't have time to say it, why not just wait until you do and say it then? Promising to do something is just a way to be visible and ostensibly involved while not actually doing anything.

I'm not saying he's scum, to be clear -- promising to do something doesn't mean anything, town or scum. I am saying that reading him town based on an empty promise to do something makes no sense at all. You want to talk about "fake" town reads....

[Eden]

I don't think hayato is mafia. I disagree with almost all his takes so far that I've seen, but disagreeing with me != mafia behavior. And he's right about one thing -- there's no reason for mafia to be putting themselves in the spotlight this early and putting pressure on themselves.

I'd rather TCold, for one. Relatively experienced player, clearly keeping up with the thread, but not doing anything of substance... I wouldn't feel bad about taking him out. HighShroomish is raising flags for me as well, but I'm going to give him a pass until the old posts come up and he can deliver on his promised message. But I don't think hayato is scum right now.

[Eden]

lol, wtf @ Volition

If Volition is mafia that's a pretty bold opening move. Volition, you care to share any of your reasons for why you think either of jaye or Android122 are mafia?

[Eden]

This waiting game for posts to reappear is so frustrating.

hayatoBL

: Tell me what you can about me and notscience from your initial accusations. I get that you can't go back and cite specific posts yet, but tell me what you can right now.

HighShroomish

: Where is that post you promised? At this point we don't have time to keep waiting for posts to reappear, so go ahead with what you can without the posts.

Volition

: Explain your scum reads.

DizzyDotRocks

: Give me a list of reads.

notscience

: Do you think hayato is scummy or not, and why do you even care about "being in townbloc"? If you're town then just scumhunt...

Meanwhile TCold has done nothing at all to convince me he's not scum since I openly said I thought he was scum. Only one step from there...

VOTE: TCold

[Eden]

Ah. I'm not a fan of process of elimination outside of select circumstances (mainly endgame stuff that's not relevant right now)... that's not really scumhunting, IMO. But if it's your style then do you; I'll decide what I think of it as we go along.

If you're going to townhunt though then tell me where you stand with the rest of the players right now. I want to start getting people really on the record here so we can get some more productive discussion going. We're averaging like 20 posts a day, for 9 people, which is terrible; you aren't the chief cause but you're definitely able to break us out of here, so let's get something going.

[Eden]

UNVOTE: TCold

I'm going to be out for the evening and I don't want him hammered in the meantime. We're way too early in the game for that. My vote will go back on once I'm able to access a computer consistently (i.e. tomorrow morning/afternoon). For purposes of vote analysis pretend my vote is on him until I come back.

[Eden]

notsci made two townreads. One on you and one on Android.

There was a talk between you and HiShroo about ‘giving reads’. HiShroo was against. You was for. And for that notsci read you as town.

Android preferred an interesting game. Also, notsci read him as town.

So, his town reads were based on opinion on how to play the game and preference. How is that alignment-indicative?

Would you have a different opinion on how to play the game, if you had the opposite alignment you’re having right now? Or perhaps the likelihood of getting town-role increase if you have a certain opinion about the game?

The same with preference.

Preference and opinion wouldn't necessarily change, but you can bet your hide that expressions of them would. The mafia do not want the town to get active and organized; an inactive and/or disorganized town is the best ticket to a mafia victory. Mafia typically haven't got a reason to be so active in encouraging people to get reads out and pressing people for reads. Likewise with Android, especially given how widespread the belief that "lynch all liars" is a perfectly acceptable strategy, point-blank saying "I like it when town lie because it makes the game more interesting and nerfs the good town players" is suicidal if he is mafia.

Neither of those are 100% ironclad proofs that either me or Android are town, but they certainly provide enough justification to read us as town, so I definitely don't see where you conclude they're fake.

It felt at that time, as if he’s pulling town-reads out of a hat.

I wouldn't be suprised, if it came from a Newbie, but from an IC?

Tl;dr

It felt fake.

And you didn’t feel that way?

No, and your explanation certainly hasn't done anything to change that. You can't just call someone's town reads fake like it's a fact and then turn around and go "I just felt that way, what, you didn't?"

But some of those are just excessive, not needed. For instance:

lol, wtf @ Volition

If Volition is mafia that's a pretty bold opening move. Volition, you care to share any of your reasons for why you think either of jaye or Android122 are mafia?

That question was unnecessary. Jaye has already asked that question. Why would you ask the same one again?

Why the hell wouldn't I? I wanted to know the answer. I don't give a shit what other people have done. You'd have a point if most of my questions to people were just echoing what others have said, but that's almost impossible by definition (since I have the most words and most posts) and definitely isn't true regardless (most of my questions posed have been original content).

Your preliminary reads (on page 1, I think). There are a lot of words, but less content. That list reads basically you’re saying hayato and DDR slightly scum and all other nulls. It felt like you just want to post a lot of words to look like you’re scum-hunting.

There's plenty of content, everything in that list either stated my read on a player or explained it by commenting on what the player had said up to that point. And sure, I guess a scum player could try scumhunting really hard really early to look town, but there was absolutely no pressure on me to look like I was scumhunting, so your assigned motive doesn't fit.

Also, you asked certain players reads on specific players. A question in almost every post. One example: You asked my reads on HiShroo and TCold. I answered it with : “No reads” or something like that. And there was no continuation to that discussion. It’s like you had done what you wanted, which is to post the question and that’s it.

Again, if I were doing this for the significant majority of my questions, this point would stick, but the fact that we're even having this back-and-forth at all should be proof positive that this isn't what's happening. If I'm just trying to ask my questions and skate by on that, I have no motive to press you for the reasons why you think I'm suspicious.

This is how I felt: It felt like you are scum who was given a To-Do-List.
1. Make a long list of reads – check.
2. Urge people to contribute – check
3. Question somebody something – check

Tl;dr

Eden is hungry for town-cred.

A to-do list from whom, Santa Claus? A scum partner that isn't even guaranteed to be sufficiently qualified to give me a to-do list and expect me to follow orders? And do you really think, based off my play so far, that if I were given a to-do list I'd pay the slightest heed to it?

If I am wrong and you’re town, I hope you won’t be discouraged and continue scum-hunting, however you see fit.

Good news! I wasn't going to change anything I was doing or be discouraged regardless of what you said.


TL;DR: Your arguments aren't wrong (there's too little confirmed data to say that absolutely), but your assignments of motives for my behavior don't match up with the current incentive structure of the game at all and make them significantly likely to be misguided. [and to be clear this is my best attempt to speak from a 'neutral' POV, leaving out my own knowledge that I'm town]

[Eden]

I agree and disagree with 96 and 97. It depends on the individual context; I'll cover more of that as we go along and the context develops more clearly.

Looking at the individual TCold voters/FOSers, I think it's mostly town-driven. TCold might be an "easy lynch" right now relative to the others, but we can't simply sum it up there; we have to ask

why

he's an easy lynch. He's an easy lynch because he's not doing anything pro-town and he's repeatedly chosen not to address the accusations against him in a substantial way. That's more likely to be a town-driven lynch than a mafia-driven lynch.

[Eden]

While I'm waiting for posts to come back to do a more detailed rereading and reads list, some quick thoughts:

• Still pretty sure notscience and Volition are town. Nothing changed either way there and I think their reads are genuine and on-point.
  
• Adding Dizzy to the town list. She's posted more lately, given me a good list of reads, and asked good questions to potential suspects.
  
• Opinion changed on hayato; he might be RL busy, but he dropped off after saying his piece, hasn't voted his scumreads or seriously pushed for either of them to be lynched, and still has his vote on HighShroomish from the RVS despite clearing him and only him as town so far. Moderate scum read.
  
• TCold
  still
  hasn't done anything to help town this game smh
  
• I don't understand jaye's last post revisiting something old and thoroughly off-subject, especially without adding new content. I also don't get the HighShroomish vote, what he did (with "discouraging reads" in jaye's words) wasn't scum, just (arguably) wrong. Neutral read for now, maybe a little scum.
  
• Android still floats solidly in newbie territory for me, from a more experienced player I'd find the behavior scummy for sure. I want more from him.
  
• I can't quite tell what to do with HighShroomish right now. Maybe once the posts come back and he has everything he wanted to make his post we'll know, but I'm not seeing much out of him.

Right now my top two suspects are TCold and hayatoBL and I'm not sure which one I'd rather out of the game. I'm actually thinking hayato a little more now -- I'd rather kill the guy I suspect for the things he

has

said than the guy I suspect for the things he

hasn't

said. Second tier is jaye, Android and HighShroomish in no particular order, and I think everyone else is town.

VOTE: hayatoBL

[Eden]

ugh running up on 24 hours.

I've been going through the thread, summarizing everything a player has said and analyzing it for town/scum reads. I wanted to post the whole thing at once but I figure I ought to put something out there to (a) avoid a prod and (b) give y'all something to work with.

Volition

Spoiler: Volition Summary

- Replaces in for asdfhillary, immediately calls jaye and Android122 mafia without an explanation.
- Clarifies initial post, saying the accusations weren't random but that he left them unexplained to allow him to gauge reactions to them for later. Claims that Android is just posting to keep up with the game and not looking to advance the game. Claims that jaye's reads look like forced scumhunting and not genuine. Says he doesn't like the TCold wagon, calling out Android for not starting the lynch despite FOSing TCold, and jumping onto it after others did. Reads DizzyDotRocks as town, citing genuine, natural answers to RVS questions. Reads HighShroomish as trying to sound as normal as possible, rigid. Asks notscience why he reads Android as town, and HS why he's voting for him.
- Names jaye and HS as biggest scum reads but expresses doubt that both are mafia (citing jaye voting HS). Names Eden, DDR, hayato town reads. Says notscience is null because attempts to advance the town don't seem genuine. Votes HS.

Analysis

: Rationale for voting HS needs fleshing out. For the most part, checks out as town -- despite low post count, he's been proactive, putting himself out there with unique reads and giving reasonable takes for his scum reads. Volition is town.

[Eden]

HighShroomish[/u/

Spoiler: Summary

- Answers RVS questions: no answers stick out here; random-votes asdfhillary
- Challenges my posts: recommends not posting read lists, expresses skepticism that I have reads. Says he will policy lynch people who try to confirm town based off of a scum flip.
- Responds to jaye: says we "could start trying to get a read" instead of... saying who we have scum reads on? Then says an early read list isn't useful.
- Observes that posts disappeared.
- Echoes DDR re: waiting for posts to reappear.
- Promised big post here! ...some unproductive talk about mafia theory, clarification that he is experienced, and openly states he's too lazy to remove RVS vote after the game left RVS (even literally asking Volition to "wake [him] up").
- Null read on TCold (inactive).
- Clarifies earlier comment, stating he never thought DDR was scum.
- Further clarification.
- States that he thinks DDR is town, says that he would "jump-start this game into actual happenings instead of just sitting around and chatting" but missing posts are stopping him.
- Can't tell if Android thinks he's a contributor
- Continues to bemoan the missing posts and votes notscience for not contributing
- Refuses to give any reads unless necessary

Analysis

: This guy is really scummy, the only argument I can make in his defense is that he's being so sloppily scummy that it's hard to believe scum would actually be this careless. I don't care. Highlights:

- After repeatedly talking up a "big post" promise, the delivered post had absolutely nothing helpful in it.
- Openly not giving a shit about the game, as evidenced by the fact that he has done no scumhunting and is literally waiting on other people to give him someone to vote for.
- Complains about the game not having "actual happenings" while doing jack shit to create any "actual happenings" by way of scumhunting, AND decrying people (namely me) who did work to try to move past "just sitting around and chatting."
- Vote for notscience is incredibly opportunistic; again appealing to magic invisible posts that no one can possibly use to falsify his case, he decides that "something notscience said earlier was really scummy" and votes for him. Uh... hello? If so, why did it take until now for you to do that? Way too convenient that this comes after notscience was prodded.
- Insistence on not giving any reads at all is really antitown at this point.

What more need be said? HighShroomish is scum.

UNVOTE: hayatoBL
VOTE: HighShroomish

[Eden]

Mods: Can I get that underline end command fixed? ty

I cut your post a bit.

While I'm waiting for posts to come back to do a more detailed rereading and reads list, some quick thoughts:

Opinion changed on hayato; he might be RL busy, but he dropped off after saying his piece, hasn't voted his scumreads or seriously pushed for either of them to be lynched, and still has his vote on HighShroomish from the RVS despite clearing him and only him as town so far. Moderate scum read.


Right now my top two suspects are TCold and hayatoBL and I'm not sure which one I'd rather out of the game. I'm actually thinking hayato a little more now -- I'd rather kill the guy I suspect for the things he

has

said than the guy I suspect for the things he

hasn't

said. Second tier is jaye, Android and HighShroomish in no particular order, and I think everyone else is town.

VOTE: hayatoBL

I

was

and am busy in RL. No way to prove that though.

My vote is clearly still on RVS, so no way I can argue about that.

Pretty sure I've said somewhere jaye is my town-read also. And now Volition too.

Can you elaborate on what I

have

said that makes me scum?

UNVOTE: HighShroomish

In short: You haven't made a serious effort to get your scum reads lynched. After I called you on not pursuing either scum read, you backed off of notscience, maintained your position on me, but didn't go after me, opting instead to... go after Android? But not really in a way that's pushing a case against him, either, almost as though you felt you needed to be more consistent in terms of pursuing suspects and picked an easy target. I also haven't seen a lot of scumhunting effort, again most of it came after I called you on the lack of it.

I asked you a question. And your response was 'mushy oatmeals'. Maybe I don't like mushy oatmeals.

I will talk about it in detail, when everyone has time to give reaction towards my vote. I want to give town points to any like-minded people.


Meanwhile,

your only scum-read is on TCold. The guy who never said anything. Don't you feel like you have to try better than that?

Looks like you're trying too hard to be visible while scumhunting...

I can see where Android hasn't been the ideal town player, but I don't buy this at all. First, if this is a sign of someone being scum, how come you didn't try seriously to get me lynched back when I was pushing TCold as well? Or notscience? Second, this isn't his only scum read; he's been on HighShroomish ever since the reads list you (wrongfully) lampooned back on the first couple of pages. Third, where are you trying even that hard? At least he's actually voted his scum read and made some effort to get him lynched. Even now, if Android is your supposed scum read, you're

still

not pushing to get him lynched! By your

own admission

this is a vote to gauge reactions and not seriously pushing a case.

I don't buy it and you've done nothing to change my opinion that you're scum.

[Eden]

Eden, what do you think of hayato's townread on HS, said townread was based on the "big post" promise?

What do you think of HS's vote on me, a pseudo-prod vote instead of opting for someone based on-to use your words- something not said versus said?

What does everyone think of TCold's slot? [/color]

- Realistically I can't read anything one way or the other re: hayato townreading HS. I think the reason is bunk and also the kind of argument I would expect a scum to use to clear a teammate,

but

I could also see it being town and just a bad read. If I'm going to kill hayato today it's not going to be for that.

- The vote on you was super convenient and the blatant unwillingness to scumhunt or do anything helpful at all isn't helping his case. "I want to see you talk" votes are dumb if announced as such; the point of voting for someone "to make them talk" is that you

don't

tell them why you're voting for them and force them to get more involved to clear themselves in your eyes. So he more or less neutralized the only legitimate reason he had to vote for you in the post in which he voted for you... I don't believe it comes from a good place.

- I want TCold replaced -- if he's town then hopefully his replacement will actually do something to help the game instead of forcing us to lynch him to figure out whose side he's even on; and if he's mafia then our expecting as much above will force his replacement to get involved in the game, which will give us some material to get a real read on. Right now he's doing possibly the worst thing he can if he's town, the replacement

literally

cannot hurt our position at all.

[Eden]

UNVOTE: TCold
VOTE: HighShroomish

We're now L-2. Anyone care to take it up to L-1 so we can actually try to get something vaguely helpful out of him?

[Eden]

Backpedalling

This entire thing is blowing up nothing. He said that you were a "moderate" contributor and then ranked you in the second tier of contributors... that's exactly where I would expect someone who has "moderately" contributed to be. There is no contradiction here. You're trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Reopening mislynch possibilities

This is also incorrect. For one, town move their votes and change their opinions all the time; a charge of inconsistency doesn't mean anything for alignment. More importantly, though, the two quotes you gave aren't contradictory at all. He called you "maybe town" in his reads list and then later said he was "struggling to get a strong read" on you. Even

more

importantly, why did you lampoon his reads in your post #71 if you're going to cite them as serious evidence of anything in your post #152? This makes it really obvious to me that you're reaching -- you didn't take them seriously until it was convenient for you to use to make Android look bad.

Overall, if Android is town, he’s a weak player.
1. He has only one strong scum read on TCold(which isn't actually a scum-read). He has slight scum read on HiShroo.
2. Didn’t really pushed any of his scum reads.
3. Never questions anybody about anything.

I agree with all of these points, which is why I'm not clearing him as town. This is true of about half the game though, so while it does allow us to narrow down suspects to an extent, on its own I'm not any more willing to kill Android over this than Shroomish, TCold, jaye or you.

But your case against him says more about you than him, and it's not good. Your case boils down to "He changed his mind about how he viewed me, so he's scum," which (a) isn't even true and (b) wouldn't follow even if it were true.

[Eden]

Oh, shoot. Didn't even realize I was at L-1.

Town
DDR
Slight Town
Eden
Volition
Null
Hayato
TCold
Android
Slight Scum
Jaye
SCUM
notscience
I'm VT.

That's

all you have

at L-1? After all the talk of "big posts" and "reads list" this is the entire sum of your contributions, a list that might as well have been scrapped together out of thin air?

[Eden]

Or even better. We wait for TCold's replacement and hear what he has to say, right?

Actually, if TCold really is going to be replaced, then yes.

UNVOTE: HighShroomish

[Eden]

This entire thing is blowing up nothing. He said that you were a "moderate" contributor and then ranked you in the second tier of contributors... that's exactly where I would expect someone who has "moderately" contributed to be. There is no contradiction here. You're trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

1. If he's scum, he's backpedalling. If he's town, he made a mistake. He admitted it himself in 154. But it *isn't* nothing.

2. He *didn't* ranked me in the second tier. He was being vague about it. I think he is afraid to contradict himself.

Yes he did rank you second-tier... He ranked you in a group with a few other people, behind me (as the clear top contributor). That's

exactly

what second-tier means. With that said though:

Android, in post #154 you said what hayato described as "backpedalling" "was a genuine mistake". In what way was it mistaken?

This is also incorrect. For one, town move their votes and change their opinions all the time; a charge of inconsistency doesn't mean anything for alignment. More importantly, though, the two quotes you gave aren't contradictory at all. He called you "maybe town" in his reads list and then later said he was "struggling to get a strong read" on you. Even

more

importantly, why did you lampoon his reads in your post #71 if you're going to cite them as serious evidence of anything in your post #152? This makes it really obvious to me that you're reaching -- you didn't take them seriously until it was convenient for you to use to make Android look bad.

1. Town change their opinions, but they have reasonings to support that change. Android had a poor reasoning for changing his opinion about me, which after being questioned about it, he backpedalled.

2. He called me 'maybe town' in 67. In 108, it was unclear how he read me, but he categorized me with HS, one of his scum reads. Furthermore, in 118 Android says,

In which case my opinion of you

has changed to maybe town

.

which shows, that in 108 he actually read me something lower than maybe town(null or scum). Conclusion, there is a change of read there. He read maybe town in 67, but read me something lower than maybe town in 108. *This one is very important. Can you confirm to me that you understood this one?

Save the condescending bullshit, I understood what he was saying.

You changed your argument from the post I responded to earlier to this one. First it was that he "contradicted himself", which I refuted in full. Now you're saying that he "changed his read," which is correct, which is NOT contradicting himself (as he isn't attempting to maintain, simultaneously, that you are "maybe town" and "lower than maybe town"), and which is, again, NOT alignment-indicative.

3. What's wrong with criticizing a post he made and citing them as serious evidence later?

I dunno, maybe waiting until someone put your feet to the fire to take it seriously after dismissing it out of hand earlier? I'm not convinced it's coming from a good place, is the problem. I've agreed with some of your arguments against Android. The problem hasn't been what you've said, it's overwhelmingly been the context in which you've said it.

I agree with all of these points, which is why I'm not clearing him as town. This is true of about half the game though, so while it does allow us to narrow down suspects to an extent, on its own I'm not any more willing to kill Android over this than Shroomish, TCold, jaye or you.

But your case against him says more about you than him, and it's not good. Your case boils down to "He changed his mind about how he viewed me, so he's scum," which (a) isn't even true and (b) wouldn't follow even if it were true.

I would like to urge you to read with a clear head and mind. Seriously. Because, now I have reasons to believe you can't be scum together with Android. Please ask me to rephrase if something is unclear.

I read it with a perfectly clear head and mind and concluded that your case is a load of crap. It is the height of arrogance to dismiss all criticism of your case as coming from someone who "isn't reading with a clear head and mind." You didn't do any scumhunting until I called you out on it (something, incidentally, that you criticized Android for doing, or rather not doing, in the past few posts) and the bulk of your case against Android is criticizing things that aren't alignment indicative (changing his mind on a read). You haven't done anything to establish that you're someone I can trust. Why should I be expected to fall in lockstep with your case?

[Eden]

If a player is prodded, that player has 24 hours to make an in-game post before a replacement will be found.

He has two more hours before he's being replaced. I want TCold/his replacement to say something before we kill Shroomish.

But for God's sake, people, scumhunt. I really don't like hayato's case against Android and I don't think it's coming from the right place, but he's the

only one aside from me who's doing it

, which is basically making me have to leave him alive by default. I'm not going to win this game for you by myself. Paging notscience (who knows better), Dizzy and Volition (who I'm fairly sure are town) in particular, but also Android, jaye, Shroomsish and TCold/replacement -- literally everyone except hayato.

[Eden]

So you think notscience is scum from not contributing?

I actually agree that his non-contribution is really suspect, particularly given his status as the IC.

My question now is

why aren't you doing anything at all either to figure out why he's not contributing or to get him lynched?

[Eden]

For instance, my only vote this game has been on a slot that's provided nothing really.

My townreads have been stated in-thread, but I'm holding my cards close because there's always this subconcious sheeping that happens and I prefer to see other's thoughts WITHOUT my influence.

Yeah, see, there's a huge problem with that though. It's not that you aren't stating reads, it's that as far as I can tell, you're not being proactive in trying to get reads.

What could you possibly have on jaye, though? Or TCold or HighShroomish? There hasn't been substantial interaction b/t them and the rest of the board for you to read off of. And you're not asking them questions or really getting your hands dirty to

get

those interactions going.

You say you're keeping up, but I'm not seeing that you're really involved. That worries me.

[Eden]

Studying for an exam and sleeping soon, but real quick before I go -- I'm still not buying the Android case, he still just looks like a newbie town player to me. But I'm a

lot

more convinced that hayato is town at this point. I'll elaborate on that and more post-exam tomorrow.

[Eden]

Sup guys. Anything I should know for my catch up?

Everyone sucks and we have no idea what we're doing.

[Eden]

Sup guys. Anything I should know for my catch up?

Everyone sucks and we have no idea what we're doing.

Do you suck as well. You guys should be trying to find scum. Not going well?

Yup! I can make solid cases for everyone but Dizzy, hayato and myself being scum. There's only two scum, so I've got four false positives. That's pretty shitty if you ask me! It'd be great if you could knock yourself off the list.

[Eden]

VOTE: notscience

He's been content to let me (and others) do the lifting, buddying, not been proactive beyond the initial RQS stage (which was apparently his obligation as the IC anyway) and resistant both to give reads and to find scum. No way a town IC would let this day get to this point without a solid case building up, imo.

[Eden]

Good post by Shroomish and I'm completely unimpressed by notscience's reply. Does not read like it's coming from a genuine place at all. Interaction doesn't read mafia-mafia so I'm thinking HS is town, and people need to get their votes off of him ASAP.

[Eden]

UNVOTE: notscience

As of now my vote is going back on him, but he promised reads/cases on people today, and he needs to claim if nothing else. I am completely comfortable hammering him after he posts, if he gets back to L-1 and his production at the end doesn't satisfy me.

[Eden]

So notscience

I need to know

Who is your partner and why is it jaye

[Eden]

Volition moved without explaining his vote, which bothers me. I had town-read him earlier but I'm back to neutral due to a lack of contributions. hayato's been wary for quite some time and I'm not convinced he's scum, I'm sure Dizzy's town, I KNOW I'm town... I'm not really positive about Shroomish but I lean more town on him for his more recent posts under pressure.

This wagon might be

wrong

but I don't think it's

scum

. Looks town-driven to me.

What I want to know is why I can't find a single instance of the word "jaye" in your ISO??? As in I literally c/p'd and didn't find it, where I found every other slot at least once. It's almost like you don't see a need to do anything to find his alignment. You know something about jaye that you want to share with the rest of the class?

[Eden]

@Zaicon - I think it is not unreasonable to request for extra time. We had site outage and missing posts, which slowed down town a bit. FormerFish was just replaced in, so he would need time to settle. May I suggest that we get 48 hours extra time?

Seconding this request. I kinda think/hope we won't use the full 48 hrs' extension, but I'd like to have it.

I'd like everyone to answer the following question, at least think about it if you don't want to state your answer in thread.

What town motive is there to be in the middle of the pack instead of one of the forerunners, especially as the IC? To lurking?

I don't see one so why have you been doing it?

And do you have any cases that aren't obvious?

[Eden]

I should refine the last question's focus -- I think what you said about me and Dizzy is true, and also well-established, so while I'm glad you're giving us things to go off of for tomorrow and beyond, I'd like it more if I could get your observations about people who haven't come under much scrutiny.

I specifically highlighted jaye earlier so I'd like you to start there, but Volition and, as you mentioned you were doing next, Android would also be helpful.

[Eden]

I'll do Jaye and Volition after Android's. Probably won't be for a few hours however.

I might claim soon though because this is getting dangerously close to deadline. I'd rather we get another wagon going though >.>

That's fine re: the other 3 just as long as you do them.

And I think I have the answer to your question. You're a town PR, aren't you? Lurking/not leading would make you less liable to be targeted for a kill (ESPECIALLY as the IC), and I can't see any reason why you would feel the need to announce that you "might claim soon" (as opposed to claiming outright) if you had nothing to hide (i.e. were vanilla town).

[Eden]

Can I pre-emptively prod literally half the players in the game? This is ridiculous. I haven't seen anything to make me change my mind about notscience and jaye being the scumteam, but at the rate we're going this might end up in a no-lynch because people refuse to play.

[Eden]

I'm the town 1-shot bulletproof.

Your move.

[Eden]

I'm the town 1-shot bulletproof.

Your move.

To be clear "your move" was directed at notscience. I'm not stopping at his jailkeeper/tracker soft claim and neither should anyone else.

[Eden]

I am off your wagon. Are you a power role or not? Why should I believe you if you are, and why did you lie about being a power role for no reason if you aren't?

[Eden]

Oh, thought that was "just kidding."

In that case

VOTE: notscience

notscience got snared in the trap and it's time to kill him.

I'm the cop.

Rationale: I know I'm the cop. When notscience claimed a power role, I therefore knew he could only be doctor, or scum lying. I also knew, based on the Matrix6 setup, that if notscience were the doctor, he would know I'm lying if I claimed to be the jailkeeper or 1-shot bulletproof town. Thus, if notscience were telling the truth, he would have immediately tried to get me lynched because he would know I fake claimed. If he were mafia, then he would try to get away from the subject of his specific role: it would be ideal for him to be known as an "unidentified power role" because it would give him flexibility to change his story later as it's needed. I picked the 1-shot bulletproof town because I wanted to give him an option for his fake claim (jailkeeper or tracker), as I did in my post:

I'm not stopping

at his jailkeeper/tracker soft claim

and neither should anyone else.

I wanted him to make an explicit role claim, in his own words, so he would have no room to wiggle out of it once I caught him.

Now let's talk about his partner. I already called attention to the fact that

nowhere in his ISO does the word "jaye" appear

. I consider this

very

strong evidence that jaye is his partner because there is absolutely no reason for a town player not to have engaged

only

one player the

whole

turn. I believe he has consciously avoided mentioning jaye as much as possible for the same reason he wanted to get away from not claiming a specific power role: he wanted to maintain as much flexibility to say something about his scum partner as possible.

I will be scanning jaye tonight and we'll go from there tomorrow.

[Eden]

Quick who are your scum reads

/s

[Eden]

No that was absolutely the right call on his part

He got caught and after townreading me so hard didn't have a way to argue out of it, was at L-1 with my vote, so he went ahead and killed the phase so his partner wouldn't have to say anything potentially incriminating

[Eden]

Speaking of, before this gets locked, notes:

- notscience hasn't engaged jaye *at all* this game, only player he hasn't; if notscience flips scum then absolutely scan jaye

vote analysis:

- vote counts 1.1 and 1.2 were during RVS, nothing useful to glean from them; notscience didn't vote during RVS despite asking us all to (???)

- vote count 1.3 is first real count; highlights: notscience and TCold no vote, no real wagons forming yet

- vote count 1.4 shows HighShroomish wagon: jaye jumped off HS then got back on but didn't want him to get hammered (what happened to real vote?), hayato and Android stay on outliers, HS votes for NS

- vote count 1.5 only has Eden remove vote to avoid hammer

- vote count 1.6 shows massive swing away from HS and toward NS, hayato gets off outlier to vote NS without giving a lot of reasons

major questions to ask:

- volition, why did you move away from jaye and Shroomish to vote notscience?

- jaye, what changed from the initial vote on HS to the unvote, and then why haven't you moved off?

possible scumteams:

- notscience/jaye looks like a winning ticket for the moment, neither have done anything helpful or cleared themselves and the total lack of interaction between them is telling

[redacted; none of them had notscience in it]

---

Reads:

town: Eden, Shroomish, hayato, Dizzy
null: Android, Volition, Formerfish
scum: jaye, notscience

[Eden]

Some more specifics now that that's out of the way. This could get locked at any minute so I'm going one player at a time per post, sorry for spam.

Shroomish

: Really cleared himself to a big extent in my mind when he tried to attack notscience real hard as soon as he got an opening and the pressure was off. I don't think a scum player on the verge of getting lynched would call attention to his partner with a vote on him that would stick out (which his isolated vote on notscience in votecount 1.4 absolutely was), nor would he back that up by attacking once his partner was starting to get votes.

[Eden]

Dizzy

: Hasn't said all that much but everything that has been said has rung true with me. Pretty sure she's town. Weakest town read right now but it is what it is. Not sure what to make of notscience choosing to do his other townread case on her, it's probably WIFOM at this point but it's the only thing holding me back from being more sure about her town status, so take it FWIW.

[Eden]

hayato

: Has been way too eager to clash with me and others to be mafia imo. It's the same rationale notscience gave for me being town. I'm also thinking town here because of the way notscience was "not sure whether he should start a hayato wagon or not" back on the first few pages. If you're scum there you don't call attention to how suspect your partner is like that -- you either go hard on him to get town credit (although this is a terrible strategy) or you don't pay it any heed and stir something up elsewhere.

[Eden]

Volition

: I liked his intro post but he hasn't done anything ever since. I'm worried about the switch onto notscience for no stated reason at all, as it's possible he was scum and saw the writing on the wall and tried to get town cred. I don't think that's it, though. He's my least scum read out of my null reads.

[Eden]

Android

: All gut that I think he's town. Everything just seems like it's coming from the right place as a new town player. But I know that's nothing but my intuition and I don't want to put him in the town pile when admittedly he hasn't done a thing this game to really solidify himself as town. He really, really needs to try to be more involved in finding mafia.

[Eden]

Formerfish

: Nothing has happened yet with him, my gut says that his "wtf are you doing??" type reactions there were genuine, but I'm not calling him town for that because (a) it's just a gut read with literally nothing behind it and (b) he could be scum freaking out over some wild role claim shenanigans involving his partner.

[Eden]

jaye

: Has posted enough to be visible, but at least half the things he's said this game have been blatantly sheeped from me, he hasn't really made an effort to catch anyone on his own in any serious way, and his interactions (or lack thereof) with notscience are

much

more damning than the other players'. I really didn't like this post:

@NS I didn't realise you haven't read me

For my view on you, I haven't got much useful from your posts. Partly perhaps because I haven't understood all of them (what is tunnelling?)
And I don't see the distinction between scum hunting and looking for town - I thought most of us try to do both.

I can't see that you're inconsistent - but you haven't said much apart from liking Eden a lot. Alright that might be IC trying not to lead (In my previous game the IC was big on "I'm not saying what I know in case you all start sheeping". I thought it was suspicious but they turned out to be town so I have to accept it's not alignment indicative - just irritating)

I wait your post/list with interest

It just seemed

really

forced and in light of the fact that notscience is now scum it looks awful. I think he's notscience's partner and I will be scanning him tonight.

[Eden]

Miscellaneous stuff/preemptive responses

"B-b-b-but Edeennn ur da cop y did u claim d1 ur gona die an waste da cop!!!!!"

1) I actually didn't. The cop's ability to scan at night isn't his only special weapon in this format. The information I had on the game state by knowing there's a cop in the game was another weapon as well. It let me catch notscience as you can see. That's the same thing as scanning someone guilty and claiming with that information.

2) Even if I had claimed without using any of the cop's special abilities, me being the cop literally doesn't mean shit for my performance or actions in the game. Sure, I have a special ability to scan people at night that no one else has. Who gives a fuck? Did that magically make my wincon change? No? Then being a good townie is still the top priority. Town power roles should NOT nerf their game in order to stay alive. If you're a town PR, you are not special. You're not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You're the same townie made of the same decaying organic matter as everything else. Your primary responsibility is still to be a good townie. That means being active in discussion, that means scumhunting, that means calling out people you suspect even if you could just let them go and scan the next night to confirm. That's why I outed: catching scum and being a good townie (which means not lying, most of the time; this is why I said "everything's situational" WAY back in my 1st post) is the top priority.

So, I'm almost certainly not going to be here tomorrow. You guys need to step up and fill the void I'm going to leave behind. Dizzy, hayato, Shroomish, you guys are clearly town to me, I want you leading discussion tomorrow. Everyone else, I want you active and involved and finding scum.

Good luck!

[Eden]

b-but i-i-i thought that w-was e-el-elegant, hayato-san ;_;

Quick, while we have time, who do you think is notscience's partner? You were suspicious of him longer than most so I figure you've given it some thought.

[Eden]

I can see Android/notscience, yeah. I've been discounting his reaction to Android for a while because I figured notscience was just buddying me, but that would be a good place for notscience to let Android hide in as insurance if he were caught.

[Eden]

If the real doc were to out, then you would have three power role claims. Worst case I'm lynched, I would flip cop, you'd have a confirmed doctor (if not outright nightkilled, then confirmed for pushing the lynch and calling my bluff), notscience goes day 2. Same situation as when you lynch a cop to confirm scans. The more likely case is that people believe me when I retract my 1-shot BP claim, claim cop and explain my reasoning, we lynch notscience day 1, just like we are now. I've been way too town for you guys just to lynch me for briefly lying about my role as part of a plan whose logic I spelled out pretty clearly and understandably in my reveal post.

If y'all still find that risky, that's fine; I'm more inclined to take risks than most people in my experience, both in mafia and RL. But I don't see this as an especially risky play.

re: jaye/Android -- if we're fortunate, I'll have a scan on jaye tomorrow and we can move straight to Android if I'm wrong. I wouldn't be especially bothered by either of them getting the boot; I think it's jaye but we have time. (Even if I don't!)

[Eden]

That's really noble of you, but your life's worth more than that. Don't throw it away to protect me. That's not your job. Find scum, that's your job.

[Eden]

Shut up Android ur good

I GOTTEM COACH

VOTE: jaye

[Eden]

On a scale of 1 to 10



This game was

2

easy

http://mirrors.rit.edu/instantCSI/

[Eden]

ok frends ggs all

this was a gr8 game and i had gr8 fun, would gladly play with y'all again

[Eden]

are you fuckin serious

i'm the cop

lmao

how is this even a question

[Eden]

aight sorry i'll stop being rude and explain

There were only two ways I could have pulled off the trap on notscience d1 now that a mafia roleblocker is confirmed: I was cop, I was doctor or I was a goon. If I were doctor then I would have been shot last night because I was the only serious cop claim and I couldn't protect myself. If I were a goon then the real power roles would have spoken up during the trap (remember there is always at least one PR in the game and often 2 in this setup!). Neither of these happened, ergo I'm cop.

[Eden]

This isn't about "safety," it's just paranoia. You're not thinking this through to its logical conclusion at all. This scenario

cannot

have happened if I weren't the cop.

Walk through it. The only way I could have set up the trap to catch notscience is if I knew 1-shot BP, tracker and jailkeeper weren't in the game. Only the cop and doctor can know that. I can't be the doctor because I'm still alive and there was no kill last night, indicating that the doctor chose to save me. Therefore I must be the cop.

[Eden]

Oh wait, actually, even better. If I were the doctor then I wouldn't necessarily know that the tracker isn't in the game: column C contains the doctor/tracker combo. So I have to be the cop, it's literally the only role that can with 100% certainty say that the 1-shot BP, jailkeeper and tracker are all not in the game.

[Eden]

Nah he's really maf I ain't playin

[Eden]

Then I'd have stayed on him for lying about being a power role when he was being pressured as a vanilla town.

[Eden]

Lol, no prob, you weren't actually tunneling all that hard imo. It was my job to talk you down from it as much as it was your job to step back and see it. We got it settled.

[Eden]

why would I or anyone else apologize for making you not be useless by threatening to kill you?

[Eden]

yea I'm fucking with ya and waiting for Zaicon now lol

[Eden]

whoooooooooooo we did it fam

would be curious to see the mafia QT

[Eden]

There's a statistical analysis floating around somewhere for Matrix6 and I know it looks at D1 scum guilties, but I couldn't find D2 data to see. This was pretty quick though for sure.

[Eden]

And i woke up and found myself dead. Congratulations town.

Now I know the answer to 2 of NS questions.
I prefer being town to mafia. As mafia you can't react naturally.
And town lies can be spectacularly useful.

I'd like to play with you all again - on the same side preferably

Wake up dead, hmm?

That's exactly why I loathe being mafia. I'm way too much of a straight shooter naturally to be effective at manipulating people over the long run. It's just uncomfortable, even in context of a game like this, y'know?

Nice playing with ya. Nice playing with all of ya! Let's get another game going sometime!

[Eden]

I'm still mad I couldn't be town.

The biggest issue with how I play scum is that it's terrible in a playlist I've never played with before, I suck at tonality, and I have trouble dealing with apathy as scum because I get so bored lying

oh god I feel you so much hahahah

You won't believe how happy I was to draw town. I was mad I drew cop because I felt I was good enough without being cop and that it was a waste of the resource. I'm ultimately glad I did, because I was able to use my game state knowledge to confirm notscience scum (believe it or not, I wasn't completely sure before then), but vanilla town is my game.

In other words, I voted the right person for the wrong reasons. I was merely lucky

and therefore town was lucky

.

A-

hem

.

[Eden]

its aite fam we still came out on top