NG 1479: Somebody's Gonna Die! (OVER!)

[goodmorning]

ALL RIGHT

So I just read the game. And it was weird. I couldn't keep half the replacements straight. But let me try anyway.

HighShroomish (replaced Dritan; chitmap2510) - This guy is Town. I believed the VT claim when it was made and I like the thought processes that Shroomy has been working with.
HiddenInTheDark - I'm not sure. Started out really really Town, but some of his more recent posts have been... ew. One of {HITD, Victor} is Scum.
jon_h61 SE - Hasn't done anything overtly scummy, but then, he wouldn't. The whole time I was reading my gut was shouting about him too. But my gut has been wrong before. I'm reserving judgement on him til I can read him real-time.
Matti (replaced Drone67; SafetyDance) - Safety was Town. I read Safety well. Therefore TOWN.
VictorDeAngelo - Has contradicted himself a time or two. Is that scummy? Not necessarily. Again, either he or HITD is Scum.
YurikoJasmine - Looks Town to me, based on pretty much every single one of her posts being absolutely wonderful.

So I'm going to treat Matti and Shroomy as very town for the rest of the game. Those reads aren't going to change unless something drastic happens. Yuriko is a weaker townread.
I keep PoEing it down to jon/{HITD, Victor} and I really don't want it to be jon? I don't know.

[goodmorning]

jon_h61 SE - Hasn't done anything overtly scummy, but then, he wouldn't. The whole time I was reading my gut was shouting about him too. But my gut has been wrong before. I'm reserving judgement on him til I can read him real-time.

How would you know I wouldn't do something scummy? I've only been scum twice, both times as replacements, and lost both times. The first time I survived until the Day before LYLO, the second I didn't last a day (real time). But thank you for the compliment? If being accused of being a good liar

is

a compliment.

I remember playing with you in N1402. Not that you were Scum then, but you seemed competent.

His only giving Town reads isn't something I've ever seen a Townie do before.

Really?

Why do you say "and I really don't want it to be jon?"? This sounds like the beginning of a push to me. Are you saying I'm too Townie to be Town?

I'm saying I'm personally hoping it's someone else.

Can you elaborate on Victor's cog dis?

Wasn't cog-dis. Was contradictions. HITD brought them up about a zillion times.

What did Safety do that gave you this firm Town read?

It's largely just based on meta and the fact that I'm very familiar with his.

If Yuriko "Looks Town to me, based on pretty much every single one of her posts being absolutely wonderful.", why is she a weaker Town read?

Because I've never played Yuriko before and so it's possible she could be snowing me. Besides which, it's more that the other two are stronger because they're based in what I absolutely know about Safety and the type of newb Dritan was.

I keep PoEing it down to jon/{HITD, Victor} and I really don't want it to be jon? I don't know.

If you think I'm the lynchpin here, why say you really don't want it to be me??? It doesn't sound much like you're reserving judgement to me.

Because I don't want it to be you. I'm reserving judgement on your slot, but that's just where PoE puts me.

I don't like the "too Townie to be Town" gm starts with.

If only that was what I said.

@ gm You said you believed Dritan's VT claim, what did you think of HITD's VT claim?

Plausible, but almost too desperate? And the timing didn't really make sense from where I sit.

[goodmorning]

In no way am I worried about what anyone has to think of me haha. I do have a question, what is meta?

Meta is the way that people have a history of playing.

[goodmorning]

His two townclears (Matti/Dritan) feel pretty artificial.

In what way? And before you ask, I'm 100% certain of Matti and 98% of Shroomy.

(since I am somewhat sceptical that HITD would have thrown so much pressure towards Jon at the start of Day when I was such an easier target)

Why do you not think HITD could have bussed? jon didn't look likely to be lynched today (and probably still doesn't, but one never knows), and if HITD goes and flips Scum, then that would make jon look rather clear.

He also seems to ignored Jon calls to expand on his reads to make his points clearer - yet he responded to most of the rest albeit in a brief fashion.

Quote this for me.

@jon: Why ask me questions if you weren't in any way interested in the answers, or in answering the questions I put to you in return?

[goodmorning]

Really?

No, I've never seen anyone only give Town reads, especially the way Espe did. Not even newbies, excluding those who flake after a few days. I did play with a ten year old(?) that started out saying everyone was Town, but when he got pressured on it, he picked out a player or two he thought was scummy. Espe never did, and I called him on it, but he still refused. In the game I read with you and him in it (you were scum), he didn't play that way. Mini 1520. So I'll stand on that. No, I've never seen someone play the way Espe was. Even his Town reads were vague.

As far as only giving townreads: it's a strategy I've seen used occasionally insofar as it limits Scum's knowledge. These sorts of things particularly happen with ICs in newbie games (I've gone further and held back all but one or two reads a time or two) because the position bestows some extra attention. And, as ICs typically expect to die, it can later (postmortem) be somewhat effective at directing lynches/nightkills.
Why do you think Espe would be more likely not to share scumreads as Scum than as Town?
Also, this was apparently his first IC game. I'm not massively surprised his play was as it was, particularly given the replace-out.

Wasn't cog-dis. Was contradictions. HITD brought them up about a zillion times.

Anything other than the "believing Dritan's claim"? If I thought someone was scum, a pre-hammer claim of VT wouldn't make me suddenly believe they were Town.

I don't know what you're talking about here.

Though what I've seen, claiming VT gets you strung up more often than claiming a PR. For

some

reason.

Ha. Only if you claim the right PR.

If only that was what I said.

No, you didn't say that, but I felt you were implying that. If I should have come to a different conclusion from your post, I don't know what it was. It sure looked you were seeding doubt, in preparation of pushing a wagon.[/quote]
Not having done anything too scummy doesn't mean you've done anything particularly towny either.

Did everyone else realize it was Marathon weekend on Mafiascum? I guess since I go straight to my bookmarks I missed the announcements. That makes me sad.

I did, but I don't typically do Marathons.

SIDE NOTE:

We now know we are either in column A or row 1. Scum have either a Role blocker or goon.

The RB is useless now that our JK has flipped.

It's going to be an all scum hunting game, instead of relying on Powers.

I was looking at the setups again, and I thought I remembered someone saying something along the lines of the bolded. No prizes for guessing what I think of it.

[goodmorning]

You think that Jon was trying to out the RB'er in the thought that he would out himself for the next night lynch? Even though the RB'er is still useful as in blocking a night kill from happening.

Uh... what? The RB is a Scum role.

are you suggesting that jon_h61 seems to state there IS a RB in play?

Presupposes scum knowledge?

Yes.

His two townclears (Matti/Dritan) feel pretty artificial.

In what way? And before you ask, I'm 100% certain of Matti and 98% of Shroomy.

Firstly the percentages make it feel more artificial :p - How can you be 2% less sure on Shroomy.

As for my original point you have towncleared two players you have been suspicious this game and not given any good reasoning.

1. The percentages are merely there to exaggerate my point: I am certain of Matti and very nearly so of Shroomy at this point.

2. I have towncleared two players. What would my motivation be for doing this as Scum?

(since I am somewhat sceptical that HITD would have thrown so much pressure towards Jon at the start of Day when I was such an easier target)

Why do you not think HITD could have bussed? jon didn't look likely to be lynched today (and probably still doesn't, but one never knows), and if HITD goes and flips Scum, then that would make jon look rather clear.

Possible but it only really works if either Jon or HITD thought they were likely to be the lynch today. Otherwise I see scum looking for another mislynch target.

Plenty of time to look for other mislynches after a distancing bus.

You bit where you didn't expand your reasonings. Sure

That was funny, but unhelpful. If it's really a point of concern for you then why aren't you more interested in getting it cleared up?

IC-Question:

How does a roleblocker work with the bullet proof townie? (any experienced player can answer)

The bulletproof townie doesn't have an active role, but a passive one. Since being bulletproof doesn't count as an action, the RB has no effect.

[goodmorning]

Except that, as Matti said,
"are you suggesting that jon_h61 seems to state there IS a RB in play?

Presupposes scum knowledge?"

[goodmorning]

are you suggesting that jon_h61 seems to state there IS a RB in play?

Presupposes scum knowledge?

Yes.

So what does me speculating about the role setup do to make me scummy? In Row 1 scum have a Goon, in Column A scum get a Role Blocker. There's

nothing

for scum to role block. This is a straw man at it's finest.

I suggest to everyone, especially Town to keep a sharp eye on all of goodmorning's scum hunting from now on. I'll get to more later. I'm grilling out and I don't want to burn our food!

See, this is you not taking it seriously.
"We now know we are either in column A or row 1. Scum have either a Role blocker or goon."
This part of your post was fine.
"The RB is useless now that our JK has flipped."
This part of your post was less fine. You spoke positively as though there was a RB in the setup and you knew it.

1. The percentages are merely there to exaggerate my point: I am certain of Matti and very nearly so of Shroomy at this point.2. I have towncleared two players. What would my motivation be for doing this as Scum?

I can think of a couple. To get Town on your side, or maybe to get Town to think scum are Town. I'm sticking with gm as scum unless something drastic happens.

So I would limit my lynch options and would choose to clear Matti, a somewhat inactive slot that I could probably push pretty easily, and Shroomy, who seems suspicious of people calling him Town?
If I was Scum I'd probably have cleared Yuriko, as it's fairly obvious she's not going to be lynched.

That double post was weird. I already know scum's going to use it against me. I say let them.

ughhh this line could not be any more AtF if it triedddd

He never once questioned why I was calling him out, but tried to explain why he was doing it like he was talking to Town. Because he knew he was talking to Town.

It's quite possible he thought of it as a theory question and attempted to explain it to help the newbs. I don't know, I wasn't there.

It sure looked like he was doing his best not to make enemies.

I've not seen him care about making enemies as Scum.

She starts off saying something close to what RC said, taking it a step farther.

I don't know what you're referencing, but obviously I need to go back and read that slot again.

She warns everyone that she feels I'm a competent player.

Why would that be a warning? That word is weird in that sentence.

She says she hopes it's not me, and that she's reserving judgement, but immediately starts her push on me.

Oh really?

1

As far as only giving townreads: it's a strategy I've seen used occasionally insofar as it limits Scum's knowledge.

2

These sorts of things particularly happen with ICs in newbie games (I've gone further and held back all but one or two reads a time or two) because the position bestows some extra attention.

3

And, as ICs typically expect to die, it can later (postmortem) be somewhat effective at directing lynches/nightkills.

4

Why do you think Espe would be more likely not to share scumreads as Scum than as Town?

5

Also, this was apparently his first IC game. I'm not massively surprised his play was as it was, particularly given the replace-out.

1. First, how does not having scum reads limit scum's knowledge help Town in the first place? By making scum not think you suspect them, so the IC can live longer? Survival isn't what the IC, or anybody, should be going for. Finding, and lynching scum is what should be taking place. When you limit scum's info, as you say. you've helped keep Town without info not just on the other players, but on yourself too. Scum want to do that.
2. It gets you attention, but what was he using that attention for? Espe never did anything, his only motive I could see is trying to staying alive.
3. If you don't give reads, then how is everyone else supposed to know who you suspected? Especially if you thought you were likely to die. You might be right that it'd help direct NKs, but I'm not sure how that'd work, except maybe it'd make scum think you were safe to keep around, and make them go after a bigger threat.
4. He was trying not to draw attention to himself by calling Town scum, and didn't want to bus what he considered a weaker partner? He may have had other reasons, but that's my guess.
5. Even with this being his first time as an IC, I don't think that's enough reason for this unrealistic shift in his play. No, I'm pretty confidant this slot is scum.

1. If the Scum are both Newbs, the IC's reads can often be a road map for the game. Survival is unnecessary.
2. What is your point?
3. Obviously, if you give townreads, you suspect the people you haven't townread, no?
4. So you think that he instead drew attention to himself by not calling anyone Scum? That stands out far more for everyone than one person whining "boo hoo, you're reading me wrong."
5. Do you have any meta of him playing this way as Scum?

It's weird, it appears he's going after Matti like he thinks they're scum, but has vote parked on you. I'd actually forgotten he was voting you. Being vague can sometimes trip up scum, and maybe that was what he's attempting to do. I think I had him as Town from his interactions with Matti, but after rereading his ISO, I have to put him back to Nullish. There's only two scum though, and today I'm more interested in gm.

Look at you keeping your options open.

I know I'm probably the lynch today. I'm OK with that. But if I go today, jon needs to go tomorrow. No talking himself out of it.

[goodmorning]

And Jon hit the nail on the head with the vagueness thing.

What "vagueness thing?"

I know I'm probably the lynch today. I'm OK with that. But if I go today, jon needs to go tomorrow. No talking himself out of it.

OK, deal. I have a quick question for you, if I'm scum, who's my partner? Speaking of AtE... You realize if we're both Town it's game over.

I realize that you aren't Town. I further realize that I'm not going to win this fight because I am standing on one shaky pillar, but if I can take you down with me then I'll feel satisfied with this game. And I realize I'm going first. I'm OK with that because I know what my flip will be.
If you're Scum, your partner is either HITD or Victor, as I've said.

This part of your post was less fine. You spoke positively as though there was a RB in the setup and you knew it.

Blatant lie. The only thing I know positively is my Role PM.

I said that you spoke as if you knew it. I heavily suspect that you are blatantly lying when you say you don't.

So I would limit my lynch options and would choose to clear Matti, a somewhat inactive slot that I could probably push pretty easily, and Shroomy, who seems suspicious of people calling him Town? If I was Scum I'd probably have cleared Yuriko, as it's fairly obvious she's not going to be lynched.

You wouldn't have to worry about that until much later in the game. Yuriko would have been harder to sell that you were reading them 98% or 100% is my guess.

It is later in the game. This is, for all intents and purposes, a Micro. Anything past D1 is late.
As for Yuriko being a harder sell: not likely. And at any rate I wouldn't have to sell at a 100% confidence rate.

It's quite possible he thought of it as a theory question and attempted to explain it to help the newbs. I don't know, I wasn't there.

Town, go back and read the part we're talking about and see if you think this is even a possibility. I called him out pretty forcefully for Espe to think I was asking a theory question.

Why are you continually trying to manipulate people? It's equally possible that he didn't want to answer you straight for any number of reasons. Stop trying to make me attack or defend him. It's not going to happen.

I don't know what you're referencing, but obviously I need to go back and read that slot again.

Personally I felt he might have been a good addition to Town if He hadn't been NKd.

I remember only that EEEE was obvtowning. I didn't really read most of RC's stuff.

Why would that be a warning? That word is weird in that sentence.

Not really, you were making me sound like a threat, like if I was scum it'd be too hard to lynch me. Similar to the Lynch the IC Policy.

You are Scum, and it's going to be damned hard to get you lynched with me posting from a townslot that's being almost universally scumread.
As far as you being competent: you are. Me saying so was not intended as a warning but a note.

Oh really?

Let's hear your version of events.

I reserved judgement. Didn't last long.

1. If the Scum are both Newbs, the IC's reads can often be a road map for the game. Survival is unnecessary.2. What is your point?3. Obviously, if you give townreads, you suspect the people you haven't townread, no?4. So you think that he instead drew attention to himself by not calling anyone Scum? That stands out far more for everyone than one person whining "boo hoo, you're reading me wrong."5. Do you have any meta of him playing this way as Scum?

1. Vague Town reads?
2. I pretty much felt the same way for the original

2.

3. Espe didn't come off that way,

at all

. It's funny you're even trying to make his play appear that way.
4. Exactly.
5. No.

1. Yes.
2. My original 2 was elaborating on my original 1, and I don't know why you separated them except to look like you were saying more than you actually were.
3. I don't understand why you're trying to box me into talking about Espe. I am not in his head. Do you disagree that the people you aren't townreading would be the people you'd be ok with lynching?
4. So you think Scum-Espe made himself stand out more than he had to?
5. Then why do you keep talking about his playstyle like you know it?

My

only

reservation is I had a player I when head to head with in my last Road to Rome game was Town. I tried to warn him it might be TvT several times, but he never relented. If I remember right he was NKd, we lost anyway.

aaaaand AtF. Again.

Firstly I don't fully understand the way I'm being cleared by goodmorning. Is this because someone in the slot previously is just super-town for you? - And you've never got them wrong...ever?

Precisely this. And I have never got Safety wrong, ever.

Since my scum read and attempt at pushing on someone to see where that gets us was pretty poor and since goodmorning has come in she is going to town on my strongest town read in jon_h61 I'm kind of struggling to get my head around things.

I'm ISOing and seeing what else I can contribute - any thoughts on the process gratefully received.

You may want to put extra focus on posts that were made while you were in the game. That can sometimes trigger you thinking things like, "oh yeah, the timing was a bit weird on that."

There's a fifty percent chance of a RB in play from the matrix6 setup. If we don't have a BP townie, the point becomes null though.

That's true.

Firstly the percentages make it feel more artificial :p - How can you be 2% less sure on Shroomy.

As for my original point you have towncleared two players you have been suspicious this game and not given any good reasoning.

1. The percentages are merely there to exaggerate my point: I am certain of Matti and very nearly so of Shroomy at this point.

2. I have towncleared two players. What would my motivation be for doing this as Scum?

Let's not tangent. Instead let's have you explain your reasons for clearing these two players. Explain what they did which was so obviously townie in your eyes.

Matti's slot was once occupied by Safety, whom I have never read wrong. I realize there's a first time for everything, but this isn't it.
Shroomy was once Dritan, whose VT claim was so obv-newbTown that I would be astonished if he was Scum.

Possible but it only really works if either Jon or HITD thought they were likely to be the lynch today. Otherwise I see scum looking for another mislynch target.

Plenty of time to look for other mislynches after a distancing bus.

I have my opinion, you have yours. I just don't get any scumbuddy vibes off their interactions. If I'm wrong your gonna need to present some actual evidence.

I don't make associative cases before flips.

That was funny, but unhelpful. If it's really a point of concern for you then why aren't you more interested in getting it cleared up?

You asked a silly question, you get a silly answer. How about instead of all the couterattacking you clear up your own mess by actually expanding your reasoning?

Because I'm not seeing where things were unsatisfactorily explained, and if you think that I didn't make myself clear enough all you have to do is tell me. I'm not psychic. I can't read your mind to see what you have problems with.

Also, thanks to Shroomy I AM AT L-1. DON'T GO LYNCHING ME WILLY-NILLY.

[goodmorning]

@ gm Pretend I'm Town and my AtF worked itself on me. I'm Town, you're Town. Who do you see stoking the fires to get us to tear ourselves apart. Don't pretend this scenario never happens. Who beside me or you is scum? Short of that who (and why) is my scum partner?

You mean, assuming that we're both Town, who do I see pushing our fight? I don't see anyone outside pushing our fight. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I'm saying it's not happening here.
If I still assume you're Town, then Scum would still be one of HITD and Victor. The other, I suppose, would have to be Yuriko.
If you're asking me to make an associative case before a scumflip, no.

Convince me and I promise that no matter how hard you rail against me I'll not vote you again this game.

No self-respecting townie would ever say this.

I don't care about your scum read on me, I'd have to have a partner if I was scum. Go.

If you're asking me to make an associative case before a scumflip, no.

As added incentive
UNVOTE:

Why would you unvoting me give me any incentive to do anything. Were you under the impression you were dealing with someone who's afraid of votes?

@gm Just to let you know 473 doesn't convince me of anything. I just don't want to wall war with you right now. Unless you insist.

I am also not interested in any more great walls.
If any of the points in it are especially important I'll pull them tonight.

Vote: jon

[goodmorning]

IC_question: What does AtF mean?

Appeal to Fear.

Matti's slot was once occupied by Safety, whom I have never read wrong. I realize there's a first time for everything, but this isn't it.
Shroomy was once Dritan, whose VT claim was so obv-newbTown that I would be astonished if he was Scum.

Safety made 6 posts and half barely contained any content. I remain sceptical that you could know a player that well to townclear him. I dislike how after repeated calls you still don't highlight anything Safety did to make such a strong townread and instead say trust me.

Because it's not really based on what he said. It's based on his style of play this game and my experience with him.

The reasoning for HS is fairly weak - though at this point I trust HS slot a little more than I trust Matti's slot.

I've played a lot of newbie games. I believe the claim. I can say no more.

You asked a silly question, you get a silly answer. How about instead of all the couterattacking you clear up your own mess by actually expanding your reasoning?

Because I'm not seeing where things were unsatisfactorily explained, and if you think that I didn't make myself clear enough all you have to do is tell me. I'm not psychic. I can't read your mind to see what you have problems with.

The response was originally barning what Jon said in 428. You've had a lot of back and forth with Jon but you still haven't presented any real case around his posting. That said it's reasonably moot since I won't be voting Jon toDay (and you seem convinced that either me or HITD are Jon's scumbuddy so that's hardly gonna surprise you).

So you want me to elaborate on why I think jon is Scum?
That's interesting, because I wasn't of that opinion at the time that jon posted 428.

No self-respecting townie would ever say this.

No self respecting Townie would want to make sure they're not making a mistake? OK, I gave you your chance.

No self-respecting townie would try to make a vote deal with their top scumspect over something so utterly stupid and distracting as an associative case. Further, no self-respecting townie would make any kind of vote deal that involved the word never.

@Victor if it were up to me both suit fine for me. I don't exactly know what gm is trying to do here and apparently I'm scum to him. For what reason I don't know. That's why my vote is staying on gm.

You're seriously OMGUSing on page 20????

Spoiler: Recent Scumgames, for reference

O547 (replaced in)
MT1520 (goodnight, hydra with Bulba)
N1477 (my first and only Scum-IC game)

Everyone should read the last one and decide whether they really think I'm Scum here.

[goodmorning]

I've done a lot of reading of Mafia games lately and I've seen scum "Town hunting" quite a bit.

If you haven't seen Town doing it then you've been reading the wrong games. notsci, especially, is well-known for townhunting being his primary strategy.

There's a lot of other things I haven't liked about her rebuttals, but winning (or losing) arguments doesn't make the person's Role PM. Sometimes it's gut that finds the scum.

Being honest here:
I read the game before I got my role PM. Do you know what I was convinced it was going to say? "with your partner, jon."
When I found I was actually Town, I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. I thought, "maybe it was all just associative tells which I now know are false."

But I think now that I was right about you even if I was wrong about me.

IF

we have the 1 shot bullet proof,

lolololololololol

@ gm In 474 I was (and still am) very skeptical that I was(am) wrong, but wanted to offer you a chance to help steer me in a different direction if you were Town.

There is no possible universe in which you would have listened anyway. Even had I poured time into an incredibly convincing and utterly false post full of associative tells and things I don't like to do pre-scumflip, you would just have said, "well, that doesn't really convince me."
And as either alignment, that would have been the correct thing to say.

But it was more like swatting you with an olive branch that was on fire. For

that

, I apologize.

Would you like to know why it was that way? That was where I became certain you were Scum and equally certain that I wasn't going to be able to do anything about it.
I have never before felt so frustrated by a Mafia game, and there have been some bad ones.

[goodmorning]

@ gm Then how about this, pretend I've been lynched. And pretend I was scum. Who would you be voting next, and how sure would you feel?

Now pretend I flipped Town. Who would you be voting, and how sure would you be?

HITD for both unless Victor was to collapse and claim Scum. I would be somewhat sure.

If me and gm keep on it can easily drown out other things. Like where the other scum is. You say I'm scum, I say you are. Enough said.

Fine. You should expect that I might possibly attempt a coherent case on you if I find the time. Other than that, keeping this to a minimum is good by me.

@ gm What should I call you? gm just doesn't strike me as what you like to be called.

gm is fine. Doesn't really matter to me what I'm called as long as I can tell it's me.

It all boils down to her entrance. Before then I think I was leaning null-Town-ish.

Uh... I don't think so?
Why would you try to pull together a wagon, even a deadline wagon, on a potentially valuable player that you were null-town reading?

I think it's better to give Reads than to not. Holding some things back is OK too, but when reads start to be so vague they start looking scummie.

I'm not sure what you expect. I still have strong townreads on Shroomy and Matti. I still think Yuriko's probably Town. I'm inclining away from Victor-Scum, and very much towards you-Scum, but that's all that's changed since my replacing in.

I've explained why I have those strong townreads on Shroomy and Matti. I'm not going to waste my time explaining Yuriko-Town unless someone wants to seriously tell me they scumread her. I won't explain why I no longer much think Victor is Scum.
I feel like our back and forth contains enough of my explanations on you for the time being.
As for HITD: I'd rather focus on you.

[goodmorning]

Uh... I don't think so?Why would you try to pull together a wagon, even a deadline wagon, on a potentially valuable player that you were null-town reading?

I'm trying to get people to commit, not say "it's too late in the Day to scum hunt".
You don't have to "start a wagon" to say who you're suspicious of.

I'm referring to your behaviour towards Espe yesterday.

Enough said.Fine. You should expect that I might possibly attempt a coherent case on you if I find the time. Other than that, keeping this to a minimum is good by me.

I'm betting you're scum because of your cases, I'd love to see another. I can point you a couple of times where I've turned on a dime on a Town read close to the end of the game, to hammer them and win the game. But it's impossible for me to change a scum read?

I have no idea what you're saying. That's certainly not the direction I was going there.
Also, what cases? I haven't made any yet.

Uh... I don't think so?

How was I reading your slot then? WOW, what a brain dead moment. If anything,

that's

what you should push. All these d@#$e, umm, great replacements. I'm speechless about that. Too little sleep, too much time. Sleep deprivation = the brain's deadly enemy. Believe it or not I was thinking for some reason you were someone else's replacement beside Espe.

To clarify, you're saying that you had a null-Town read on someone besides Espe, and that you thought I had replaced that person?

As for HITD: I'd rather focus on you.

I'd prefer you did it in thread, where we can see the interactions.

Did what in the thread?

[goodmorning]

not really sure why she is going after Jon so hard.

Because he's Scum.

I'm not entirely unwilling to compromise on HITD.

[goodmorning]

I'm not reading those walls right now.

I will read them tomorrow morning when I am awake.

I am interested to see what neil has to say about the game.

[goodmorning]

VOTE: HiddenInTheDark

Let's do this then.

Vote: HITD

About the Shroomy-Matti-Victor thing... much of it seems like a great fuss over rather little.

There was a quote in there which now I can't find in which someone said they had heard Scum tend to be on the middle of a wagon.
[IC]Scum generally tend to do whatever the fuck they want. Confusing the VCA has become a thing recently. Yes, some hide in the middle. But some hide in plain sight by starting or ending wagons because WIFOM.[/IC]

[goodmorning]

Nice OMGUS vote there.

Whose vote are you saying is an OMGUS vote?

I've pretty much given it my all. If I die, I die. People will realize who is scum and I hope people push on who I think is the scum. GoodMorning pretty much voted me because I was at L-2 and she wasn't going to vote herself. So watch her.

I've been scumreading you since I replaced in. I voted you because nobody seems to want to vote for jon.

IF I'm NKd, Town please question gm about what she did in the night!

Uh... What?

I would love it if you were to die, but between you and me we both know it's far more likely to be neil.

[goodmorning]

I voted for Jon near the beginning, wasn't much to hold.

I don't know what your point is here?

Also, your vote is an OMGUS vote.

In what way?
Fun fact: I have never (outside jokes in RVS) OMGUS'd anybody.

[goodmorning]

1. I had a scumread on you
2. deadline approacheth
3. jon wasn't getting lynched

None of that is part of an OMGUS.

[goodmorning]

I would love it if you were to die, but between you and me we both know it's far more likely to be neil.

Why would I say this and then kill neil anyway?

Also, yes, I am familiar with neil. No, I probably wouldn't kill

the one person who apparently believed I was Town

over someone heavily suspecting me like jon, and if anyone wants to continue to speculate on the NK then they need to stop it because WIFOM is only beneficial to Scum. (OH HEY LOOK WHO BROUGHT IT UP EH?)

This is MYLO and is extremely important to the win.

I

can't afford to be lynched anymore.

This is LyLo.
The wording of this comes from Scum. Excited Scum with an easy mislynch in LyLo.
I'll try and make it hard for you but I'm not sure what more I can do.

If I was scum, I would have killed anyone but neil! That would have been a dance I would have never turned down!

Gosh, Scum could never say anything like this! /sarcasm

Scum did something smart when they killed him, so that another point against gm.

Not sure whether to be flattered or disappoint.

Another thing that worries me about gm is how she didn't want to try to address anyone else as scum when she was scum reading me. I attempted to engage her in looking at others several times. I think our(gm's and mine) next conversations are going to be critical to the game.

So tunneling worries you? Bullshit. You and I both know that a solid tunnel is not particularly alignment-indicative. You're getting overexcited at the prospect of winning this game and that's making you feel like you need an extremely solid case to seal the deal. You feeling like you need an extremely solid case to seal the deal is what's leading to you making graspy points. And you making graspy points should lead to other people realizing that something's not right here.

[goodmorning]

Fine. Pretend both of us are Town for a minute. Who in the hell is Scum?

Don't even "lack of real scumhunting" me. If you want to go there things are not going to be pretty.

[goodmorning]

1. You didn't answer my "who is Scum if both of us are Town" question.
2. There is nothing graspy or vague about saying you've cleared someone based on never having read one of their predecessors wrong ever.

[goodmorning]

So you, who is ducking out of reads, are accusing me of the same.

[goodmorning]

I'm sure as hell trying to get a good read on you, then I'll decide what else to do. Sure you san say you're doing the same, but all I see is you saying " You scum!" . I don't see that you're trying to work anything out.

Obviously me asking you questions is totally not trying to figure you out or anything, nope

Obviously you assuming I'm Scum and not really answering my questions means you are trying to figure me out, yup

@ gm Can you give me a game or two that you endgamed in as Town? You've got a lot of games to have to go through just to be looking for that kind of info.

Do you mean games in which I was alive in LyLo?

[goodmorning]

O547 - Survived, Scum
LN169 - Survived, Town (game did not get to LyLo)
M289 - Survived, Town
N1458 - Survived, Town (game did not get to LyLo)
MT1520 - Survived, Scum (goodnight, hydra with Bulba)
MT1488 - Mislynched in LyLo, Town
O524 - Survived, Scum
N1426 - Endgamed, Town

This is all the games I've made it to LyLo/the end in since October, from most recent to least. I realise you requested Town ones specifically, but if someone else wants the Scum ones I don't want to go through them again.

Older ones are on my wiki. I can think of 2 in which I won as 3p and at least 3 in which I was mislynched in LyLo off the top of my head. Oh, and the one in which I was daykilled in LyLo by the Scum. That one... that one was weird.

You, specifically, might remember N1402.

PEDIT: You can lose in LyLo even if you aren't lynched, but only if you're Town.

[goodmorning]

I would love it if you were to die, but between you and me we both know it's far more likely to be neil.

Why would I say this and then kill neil anyway?

Also, yes, I am familiar with neil. No, I probably wouldn't kill

the one person who apparently believed I was Town

over someone heavily suspecting me like jon, and if anyone wants to continue to speculate on the NK then they need to stop it because WIFOM is only beneficial to Scum. (OH HEY LOOK WHO BROUGHT IT UP EH?)

So the conversation on the NK ends as soon as you defend yourself because everything else is WIFOM. Seems convenient. Answer me this, if Jon had been the NK who would have been the most likely to benefit?

Actually all discussions of the NK are WIFOM.
Presuming jon is Town, probably me. It would have gotten me out of a tunnel which wasn't going anywhere and gotten rid of the linchpin of the suspicion on me.

This is MYLO and is extremely important to the win.

I

can't afford to be lynched anymore.

This is LyLo.

The wording of this comes from Scum. Excited Scum with an easy mislynch in LyLo.

I'll try and make it hard for you but I'm not sure what more I can do.

@GM

- The bold seems off to me. What exactly are you seeing in Jon's post?

"I can't afford to be lynched anymore" is what I'm seeing in jon's post. It's a small, teasing "look at me I am so Town and you are so not haha."

Maybe I'm reading too much into it because I'm annoyed.

So tunneling worries you? Bullshit. You and I both know that a solid tunnel is not particularly alignment-indicative. You're getting overexcited at the prospect of winning this game and that's making you feel like you need an extremely solid case to seal the deal. You feeling like you need an extremely solid case to seal the deal is what's leading to you making graspy points. And you making graspy points should lead to other people realizing that something's not right here.

There seems to be some jumps in your thinking here GM.

Not really.

Fine. Pretend both of us are Town for a minute. Who in the hell is Scum?

@gm What's your thoughts on Victor?

Any follow up coming for either of these questions guys?
He followed up mine. He said, basically, IDEK. Yet he expects me to have an answer to it.

I didn't follow up his, because he keeps multiposting and I keep missing them. The answer to it is that I still think you somewhat likely to be Scum, though I am considering Shroomy with that vote/unvote despite the convincing claim.

[goodmorning]

Maybe I'm reading too much into it because I'm annoyed.

If

you're Town, and you're scum reading me because you're annoyed at me, I ask you to take another look and see if you think I'm trying to out scum or not. The warm fuzzy feelings will come when we lynch scum.

I have issues with that one particular phrase perhaps because of annoyance. My read on you is much much more than that.

Plus I'd really like the others to show up so there can be some interactions with them.

Yeah, I'm going to be sliding back posting and working more on reading for this reason.

[goodmorning]

You already know what everyone else thinks. You wouldn't be calling for a 1v1 if you didn't think you could win it.

And I can't even be properly disappointed in you because it's good strategy.

[goodmorning]

He followed up mine. He said, basically, IDEK. Yet he expects me to have an answer to it.

You're right I didn't give out any scum reads yet, and it might have been unfair to ask for yours. I'm still working on figuring you out. Plus I'd really like the others to show up so there can be some interactions with them.

@ gm Forget about me, who else is scum? I want your opinion because if you're Town, who might be on the block soon, you should be trying to point me to the true scum.

1. And here I thought it would be difficult to contradict oneself within 8 posts.
2. You were the one who brought up the fact that this is, in fact, LyLo/MyLo. If I get lynched the game is over. I hardly need to point

anyone

to

any

other Scum but you, because you chose this battle and I'm fairly sure I don't get to win it.
3. I've stated my opinion multiple times. You, on the other hand, seem to have been taking an awful lot of posts to say an awful lot of nothing. If nobody is willing to see this, fine. I'll at least be able to take it as a teaching opportunity.

The truth is I think you have to die for Town to win, and I'm asking town to step up, if they think I'm right.

If you really felt this way you would have stomped my lynch through yesterday. Why didn't you?
(Keep in mind that "benefit of the doubt" has no place in games of Mafia, and that you were the main driving force behind my reaching L-1.)

@Everyone who isn't jon:
1. Does anyone have any objections to narrowing today's lynch field to jon and me?
2. Now would be a good time to ask me any questions that you could possibly want answered.

[goodmorning]

Is it just me, or do you talk about jon twice as often as you talk about anyone else?
Also, why didn't you answer my question?

[goodmorning]

Is it just me, or do you talk about jon twice as often as you talk about anyone else?

What point are you trying to make?

What point do you think I'm trying to make? Does everything I say have to be making a point?

Also, why didn't you answer my question?

What question?

@Everyone who isn't jon:
1. Does anyone have any objections to narrowing today's lynch field to jon and me?
2. Now would be a good time to ask me any questions that you could possibly want answered.

[goodmorning]

ohffs

effort is not indicative of alignment matti

srsly

[goodmorning]

And now I'm 0 for 2 on LyLo deathtunnels. Sorry jon.

[goodmorning]

@Void: just be as clear as you can be, and don't say anything you aren't willing to defend or at least explain. I didn't read your posts that closely because you'd flipped when I replaced in, but I feel like clarity and confidence are two big things for everyone to have.

[goodmorning]

@ gm What made you think that I was scum, enough that you called for a 1v1? I'll take any constructive criticism, I'll even listen to plain criticism. That

seems

to be my main problem, right now.

I mean, pretty much everything.

I started reading convinced that we were going to be Scum together. When we weren't I figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, but some of your arguments just struck me as too... shallow? I don't know if that's really the word I mean, but it works, I guess.