NG 1479: Somebody's Gonna Die! (OVER!)

Matti · Post Post #329 (isolation #0) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:52 am

Checking in, starting reading now.

Initial questions if you care to get back to me while I'm catching up - yes I'm likely to find the answers by reading, yes it'll be useful if you add something here to help me out as I don't have too long.

(Cherry-picking the more experienced players and the top voted player for now)

(Espeonage)
- As the most experienced player here I'd be interested to hear you outline why you voted Edosurist 16 days ago and haven't changed your vote since then?

(jon_h61)
-You were the first to vote for Voidwalker1234 (assuming Mr.Flay reports votes on players in chronological order) - what was it that convinced you to put your vote on him more than a week ago?

(RedCoyote)
- You're a replacement as well and started by a full review of the thread ending up with your vote also going to VoidWalker1234 what is the single thing that makes him a better choice for your vote than the others?

(Voidwalker1234)
- You changed your vote a couple of times at the start of the game but are now voting VictorDeAngelo after your preferred scum read Dritan was replaced - you have both SE players in your vote list - what have they missed about VictorDeAngelo that you've picked up on? You moved your vote from Dritan when he was replaced - what is it about chitmap2510's play that makes you feel they are town more than Dritan's play did?

I'm GMT so more later on this evening after I get through the thread.

Matti · Post Post #332 (isolation #1) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:04 am

In post 330, Voidwalker1234 wrote:@Matti: From the beginning, a few things, one the tunneling on Dritan, the quickly ending RVS, and overall the whole thing of gut feeling. I will go by gut-feeling with most things, partly logic. The only reason I'm the main lynch is because I'm a useless townie who has a major tendency to get lynched Day 1, as proved by everyone on my wagon. Overall, I know I'm getting lynched as I'm a lynch magnet, the town who's scum, and that if the wagon on me falls I will be amazed. So, who's the hammer?

I'll try to respond as replies come in as well as reviewing the thread as I want to get some sort of dialogue going to get a feel for each of you.

Gut is fine as long as it isn't contradicted by logic - How many games have you played in (this is my first)? How quickly did RVS end and how much faster than other games was that? Did it REALLY end quickly or did it just feel like it?

No hammer until closer to deadline.

Why have you seemingly given up Voidwalker1234? Almost inviting the hammer and predicting your lynch - these things don't help. If you die, if I die, we can generate useful info in our flip but until then we talk.

I agree chitmap2510 being the vote that placed you under the hammer is always worthy of scrutiny and would feel scummy for anyone but why does that make RedCoyote seem scummy for you?

Ok so which two players give you your strongest town reads?

Unvote

While I catch up

Matti · Post Post #337 (isolation #2) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:01 am

In post 336, RedCoyote wrote:
Matti 329 wrote:You're a replacement as well and started by a full review of the thread ending up with your vote also going to VoidWalker1234 what is the single thing that makes him a better choice for your vote than the others?
Unjust deference. I'm less inclined to believe that Void's passivity is just "how he plays" than I am to believe he is strategically trying to manipulate the town.

If Voidwalker1234 is so new (I can only find him posting in this one game thread) is it likely that he is manipulating town? Was it just an easier route to a lynch of one of your scum reads on Voidwalker1234 than Espeonage or chitmap2510/Dritan?

I don't understand what the "Unjust defence." refers to, could you elaborate?

Matti · Post Post #340 (isolation #3) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 pm

In post 339, RedCoyote wrote:Sure. I don't buy into the idea of being "so new" that you can't be good at Mafia. Even if you accept that notion, how do you get around the fact that Void claims to be experienced with the game on other websites?

Huh - I read straight passed that post - duly noted - I had him down as much more newbie than you represent him.

Actually he restates when he talks about the other site deleting old posts or threads or somesuch. Hmmmn.

In post 339, RedCoyote wrote: When I say unjust deference, I just mean he's deferring to other players without sufficient reason to do so. He says things like, "does that make me sound more town?" and "Where does everyone think I should vote?" These are not things that I think a townie wants to say. After all, a townie only knows of one person that is town, themselves.

Scrap my previous point. I read "defence" instead of "deference"

Matti · Post Post #341 (isolation #4) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:30 pm

(HiddenInTheDark)

While I'm getting my head around why you are scum-reading VictorDeAngelo as regards the Dritan belief/vote position - what makes Voidwalker1234 lean town for you? Can you explain why you seem to to have jon_h61 leaning scum as well?

(jon_h61)

Similar question but reversed really, why so suspicious of HITD is it just for him fishing for town cred early on?

Matti · Post Post #342 (isolation #5) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:34 pm

I'm 2/3 way through the thread then to review and get my thoughts up here. Sleeping first, will post more tomorrow.

Matti · Post Post #358 (isolation #6) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:57 am

In post 352, YurikoJasmine wrote:
In post 329, Matti wrote:Checking in, starting reading now.

Initial questions if you care to get back to me while I'm catching up - yes I'm likely to find the answers by reading, yes it'll be useful if you add something here to help me out as I don't have too long.

(Cherry-picking the more experienced players and the top voted player for now)

(Espeonage)
- As the most experienced player here I'd be interested to hear you outline why you voted Edosurist 16 days ago and haven't changed your vote since then?

(jon_h61)
-You were the first to vote for Voidwalker1234 (assuming Mr.Flay reports votes on players in chronological order) - what was it that convinced you to put your vote on him more than a week ago?

(RedCoyote)
- You're a replacement as well and started by a full review of the thread ending up with your vote also going to VoidWalker1234 what is the single thing that makes him a better choice for your vote than the others?

(Voidwalker1234)
- You changed your vote a couple of times at the start of the game but are now voting VictorDeAngelo after your preferred scum read Dritan was replaced - you have both SE players in your vote list - what have they missed about VictorDeAngelo that you've picked up on? You moved your vote from Dritan when he was replaced - what is it about chitmap2510's play that makes you feel they are town more than Dritan's play did?

I'm GMT so more later on this evening after I get through the thread.
I hate to say it but this post looks very much IIOA (information instead of analysis) to me. Care to share some views and opinions on those acts?

Read the rest of my posts please.

As mentioned I'll get a review of my thoughts up here, it will now be this evening when I'm back from work. Please let me know if you feel I've suggested I won't get an update out soonest.

I think 24 hours to review this thread and get my thoughts out is reasonable do you disagree?

Matti · Post Post #364 (isolation #7) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:25 am

So I had this post ready a few days ago and the Yuri seemed to think it wasn't worth waiting for and dropped the hammer. I see how we got into this situation but it's frustrating to put the effort in to reading and analysing the thread (especially for a new player not used to this) then effectively have someone say "nope don't need to hear that".

(YurikoJasmine)
For clarity my post 358 was explaining that I did not like your assertion that my post 329 seemed IIOA. My point in 358 being I had been in the game less than 24 hours then and any analysis would be sketchy unless I gave it a good go. I tried to say that I would get a review into the thread within 24 hours of the point I joined - some 6 hours short of the deadline. I wasn't suggesting there was 24 hours to go until the deadline.

I'm frustrated at being called for IIOA when my stated intention was to start what conversations I could to help me understand the game and the other players. Simply refuting that attempt with your comments in 352 is both frustrating for me and counter-productive for town.

Onto the review I had planned:-
--------------------------------------

To borrow shamelessly from RedCoyote in post 276

[Town]

--jon_h61-----HiddenInTheDark----RedCoyote--YurikoJasmine--VictorDeAngelo--Voidwalker1234-Espeonage----chitmap2510-----

[Scum]

jon_h61

-- My strongest town read based on the signs he is picking up in others and talking about (HiddenInTheDark potentially trying for town cred in 126 for example). I don't always agree with his assertions however the way he is going about this game feels very town.

HiddenInTheDark

-- Another town read, not as strong as jon_h61 but still significant. To note is that his early interactions with Dritan felt quite town but more recent play less so, that said his reluctance to vote on Espeonage in 315 and query the motives of those thinking it rang true for town. I didn't like your read of VoidWalker1234 based solely on what you'd seen in another game which you didn't provide any evidence for - that said nobody pushed you for the evidence: Could you provide a link to the game where Voidwalker1234's play was replicated by another player?

RedCoyote

-- Almost all the posts put up by RedCoyote seemed organised and pro-town. Not always as fully explained as I'd like, but then I'm a new player looking for an explanation in everything and he has only been in the game a few more days than me. Not enough posts or time in game from him for me to read as stronger town - town<null.

YurikoJasmine

-- Smaller contributions but useful ones and seems to be pushing town agenda - even considering personal annoyances she still comes across with town at heart, same read as RedCoyote small town read.

VictorDeAngelo

-- As with HiddenInTheDark; your early exchanges with Dritan felt very pointed and town-leaning if a little aggressive. However while you've been organised and proactive later on your interaction with HiddenInTheDark seems to be slowing down progress of the town. Active and very small town read leaning null. read.

Voidwalker1234

-- Your playstyle is one that forces me to make an initial call on how to view you 1) new town with a playstyle of "woe is me, I'm just like this" or 2) this is a clever act to get you as far as you can in the game. I'll express disappointment if it is 1) and suprise if it is 2). I felt from reading games that choosing 2) would only be counter-productive unless you landed in a very inactive game. It seems to have done just that here. Despite you seeming to make out that RedCoyote is scummy in 331 which makes little sense to me, the odd voting on VictorDeAngelo, and the odd language when you talked about bussing over the VictorDeAngelo/Dritan interaction earlier on - I still have you as misplaced weak town/null read you just don't feel that scummy.

Espeonage

-- I'm a little confused by your play - perhaps you simply have low activity naturally at the start of games but I would have appreciated more of a town lead from you early on. That said I agreed with your call of Voidwalker1234 as town in 280 but you seemed to be advocating waiting until day 2 to see if he changed his playstyle - potentially taking us to no lynch on day 1. This seems counter-productive for town which is why I say your play seems odd - coupled with a vote on RedCoyote that seems to have gathered no following - mostly due to the lack of reasoning behind it - and the response to Dritan in 280 states that you'll come back with a response to the case against you. I don't believe you have done this, please point me to it if so and I will happily reassess. This kind of play just doesn't feel like town no matter how much "playing your way into the game" - 302 you are doing. I don't want our IC to be scum but you are leaning that way for me at the moment. null>scum read.

chitmap2510

-- I kind of feel for you as another replacement player with 5 posts with content to your name over the last week so I found it difficult to have you as my strongest scum read, but there you are. Why? - well some of it does come from your slot, not your play, early in the game where I'm getting scum feel from the emotion of Dritan. In particular the whole "scum stays in the shadows" around post 83 seemed a little bit like a justification for posting as much as he did (with limited content) which I trace back to the slot not the player. Additionally in 281 you vote Voidwalker1234 and I feel your reasons are pretty clear however I'd appreciate if you can clear up your standings towards VictorDeAngelo and Espeonage who you also addressed in that post. You seemed to have a reasonable line of inquiry into Espeonage that was rebuffed with a single sentence in 282. In fact you ask him about being dismissive and how you feel it's suspicious - he then dismisses you with a single sentence and you let it go? Are you being a little bit over-awed by tangling with the IC in this game? I don't think he answers were suitable - why do you?
As regards VictorDeAngelo you seem to have doubts about his voting for Dritan, well, actually you seem to be agreeing with HiddenInTheDark about it from what I read. I'm not calling you for the opinion more for the way you choose to voice it. Scum read.

Right now I'm happy that we have jon_h61 and HiddenInTheDark as town providing they aren't about to change their general playstyle and as long as RedCoyote and YurikoJasmine are consistently town-leaning in their play we should be able to work well with a solid town base.

VictorDeAngelo and Voidwalker1234 I'm not really sold on as scum so for me they need to contribute to town's agenda more and quit the bickering that irritates me when it seems to go nowhere and reveal nothing new.

That leaves me with two scummier players by POE - Espeonage, and chitmap2510. I can address my issues with both of these in more detail if required - I'm not reading them super strong scum and I'm pulling my thoughts together from the notes I've made going through the thread and looking at some ISOs.

I'm sure there is a bunch of stuff I've missed and could still learn / pick up on as this is the first time I've produced a post with my reads in a game of mafia so I'm happy to discuss the above and defend/critique the comments as needed.

--------------------------------------

Ok so that was my original post rendered slightly obsolete by YurikoJasmine's hammer and the events of the night. I wanted to put it up anyway as 1) It might gives us something useful to work from 2) You all get to have something to interact with from me 3) I said I would and I got all bloody minded about it once I saw YurikoJasmine had posted the hammer.

(HiddenInTheDark)
I see your reasoning for the vote on jon_h61 and while I agree there is good reason to look at why he did what he did, vote-wise, I don't believe it's worth a vote is it? jon_h61 sits in my town list so you'll have to do a lot of convincing if you want my vote.

I only have VictorDeAngelo as a small town read so I'd love to hear anything beyond what you've already said about why he is scum.

(VictorDeAngelo)
FOS on you from HiddenInTheDark - If I remove the pro-town actions I see in your posts with Dritan you look a lot scummier - so if that was down to his playstyle why are you town?

In particular can you address the claim request on Dritan with no intent to hammer?

Matti · Post Post #378 (isolation #8) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:14 am

(HiddenInTheDark)

I'm just not convinced by your argument for voting jon_h61 - I can see why you are thinking that way but it just isn't enough for me.
As you might guess I don't find your reasons for voting Voidwalker1234 and your supporting information very solid either. I can believe it's a gut read on your part but it doesn't stand up very well in my view to much scrutiny.
You're a town read of mine but simply less so now based on this thinking alone. - Only a weak town read for me - still town though.

(VictoDeAngelo)

I don't know if it's your style to be this aggressive normally - it came out earlier in the game and I pointed out I didn't like it then.
Looking at your other game 1465 I'm inclined to believe you just act like this - I 'm not a fan as I think it polarises people unnecessarily.

Regarding my previous post and the 'baffling' question to you -
I agree if you remove one side of a balanced picture then you change the overall - naturally if I remove some of your pro-town reading actions you feel scummier.
This doesn't remove the need (in my view) for the question that follows this thinking -
If your natural response to Dritan was to seem town and that was due to the playstyle in his slot - justify why I should read you as town - because if anything you are null and this attitude doesn't help me see you as any more like town.

Perhaps this is more a question I've been asking myself that I chose to pose to you at the same time - however I would appreciate a response that is less dismissive please.

I appreciate that attitude is not alignment dependant but you aren't helping us see you as town in my opinion. (There is of course the argument that only town wouldn't care about that)

(Espeonage)

Post 376 - Could you explain why you feel a wagon taking time to reach lynch means there is a minimum of one scum on it please? It isn't clear to me and it seems like something basic I should figure out.

jon_h61 looks good to you - glad to hear - how about HiddenInTheDark? - do you see him as misplaced town actions or something scummier?

(all)

I'm struggling with the Dritan/chitmap2510/HighShroomish slot - I'll be very open about this. chitmap2510 was my strongest scum read and now he has replaced out - if I review my reasons for the scum read and accept that he was only partly active then I see his play in a somewhat different light and my read changes, obviously. HighShroomish arriving and voting like that just throws it all back the other way to feel scummier on gut only. I'd really like to hear more from him.

(HighShroomish)

Do you share your previous slot-owner's view that HiddenInTheDark, VictorDeAngelo, and Voidwalker1234 are scum suspects (268,271,281) ?
I'll assume you do regarding HiddenInTheDark due to the vote - can you fill in a little more detail on him? I feel he's played as a gut-town at the moment - have I missed something that you think is significant scum-play?

RedCoyote tribute scum scale

[Town]

---jon_h61--------HiddenInTheDark-YurikoJasmine---VictorDeAngelo---Espeonage--chitmap2510-------

[Scum]

Matti · Post Post #384 (isolation #9) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:21 am

In post 379, Espeonage wrote:Wagon analysis is when you use wagons and voting to determine people's alignment. It gets really useful lategame with lots of flips but it's always has an element of conjecture. If Void had just gone through quickly then it generally means that wagons analysis could go either way. I tend to think that when a wagon stalls at L-1 or L-2 it's because the scum are already on the wagon and aren't pushing it through. By the same token, if I lynch is going to happen then scum might try to stay off the wagon to not draw suspicion after the flip.

In this case though I'm of the opinion that a scum was an pusher of the Void lynch just because of the stall it had.

I haven't looked yet to see if anyone had no reasoning for being on him, but that's what I'll be searching for now that I've identified some suspects.

I see what you mean, thanks that is helpful. Could you elaborate on the "analysis could go either way" comment please?

If the lynch went through quickly it could be due to the fact that the mafia had hammer and L-1 or that they had sufficient support and were votes 1 + 2 and town completed the hammer and L-1.
I understand it's just another analysis tool, I'm seeking to learn here, so why would anything but a quick L-1 and hammer, or just hammer with little interactions, claims etc raise suspicion? Would it not raise any flags for you if you felt there was a general case agaiunst the lynchee and only be an issue if the lynch seemingly came out of nowhere?

I appreciate there is an element of conjecture to the whole analysis - it seems epitomised by the fact you can pick one of two premises to begin:

1) The mafia want to avoid the wagon to prevent suspicion if they think the lynch will go through
2) The mafia want the lynch to go through and therefore will be on the wagon - the quicker the lynch there is then possibility that mafia have accelerated the process somewhere on the wagon

So a slow lynch and you look for mafia biased off the wagon.

A faster lynch look for it on the wagon.

- Is that how you are thinking?

If so with the description of the Voidwalker1234 lynch as stalling then you want to be looking off the wagon don't you? That doesn't chime with your suspicion on VictorDeAngelo and chitmap2510.

Matti · Post Post #387 (isolation #10) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:47 am

In post 385, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
@Matti - Aggression is just my playstyle I guess. I don't believe you can catch scum by sitting back and hoping for them to out themselves. I don't mind people being put off by the way I play, but I would say your better reading players based on their actions rather than their playstyles.

Ok, I can see that philosophy working for you, fine - if you think I'm solely reading players based on their playstyles then you are mistaken. Is a playstyle a useful way of getting information in addition to other sources - for me yes of course it is - do you not think so? How we each weight the importance of that information is down to the individual.

In post 385, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
As for your question you still have me confused. If I'm null then reread me, or see what I do next. Other than telling you to use the iso button I don't see what you could be expecting me to say

I'm not explaining myself very well - in essence it was thoughts on a player and I was attempting to ask for ideas. It happened to be that the player and the person I was asking were you. Let's leave it there as I've clearly confused you or myself or both and this isn't getting us any further forward.

In post 385, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
And if you're just looking for a way to attack me over my playstyle then just come out and do and stop beating around the bush.

I'm not looking to attack - I'm trying to put my reasoning down in these posts and see if it chimes with anyone. I noticed you being aggressive. I said I didn't like it. I pointed out what I believe to be the down side of that type of attitude. I believe that is just your playstyle from looking at another game.

Where do you feel I'm going to go from there in attacking you? It serves no purpose to do so - you have your position and play, which I fully support - it IS your choice to play however you like. I don't have to like it and I've posted as much to make sure that anyone going through my reads understands this and can take account of it, or not. I feel this is useful to us to limit emotional bias in reads and isn't an attack on your playstyle.

I'm happy for you to explain why it IS an attack on your playstyle and to take the discussion forward from there.

Matti · Post Post #393 (isolation #11) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:24 am

In post 389, HighShroomish wrote:@jon You can call me HS. I also go by shroomy, shroomster, HighShroom, High, HighS, The Fabolous and Wonderful Lord of Shroomtopia, and yes, shrooms.
Alright HITD, why should you not be lynched because of your play(and no, 'because it's coming from a town player' or anything weak like that won't cut it)

(HighShroomish)

I'm looking forward to content from you and the quoted post is a good start, let's help it along.

1) From your reading of the thread thus far would you tell me who your top town and scum read are?

2) How do you read your slot's previous player, chitmap2510?

3) HiddenInTheDark, while his play isn't perfect town play, still feels like he is town motivated no matter how scummy and uncomfortable I feel with bits of his explanations. I don't like the way he effectively responds with "Well that just the way it is - sorry". I'd love to see more explanation - but it isn't there. So if you take out the bad explanations - what do you make of the rest of his play, is he scumhunting? does his interaction with other players make you feel town or scum about him? Will he be useful to town in the later parts of the game?

Do you prefer to play town or scum in mafia games?

Matti · Post Post #396 (isolation #12) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:14 am

In post 394, jon_h61 wrote: Chitmap jumped on with the fourth vote, I have reasons I'm not willing to share ATM to believe Victor's Town. If it becomes an issue later, I'll share then.

I'm town reading you so hard and you go and say this. I appreciate you have your reasons for not wanting to share - but you do see how this looks, right? At least to me this is far and away the scummiest thing you've done. Is there any explanation you've got short of actually giving your reasons?

Matti · Post Post #398 (isolation #13) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:59 am

In post 397, HighShroomish wrote:
In post 393, Matti wrote:
(HighShroomish)

I'm looking forward to content from you and the quoted post is a good start, let's help it along.

1) From your reading of the thread thus far would you tell me who your top town and scum read are?

2) How do you read your slot's previous player, chitmap2510?

3) HiddenInTheDark, while his play isn't perfect town play, still feels like he is town motivated no matter how scummy and uncomfortable I feel with bits of his explanations. I don't like the way he effectively responds with "Well that just the way it is - sorry". I'd love to see more explanation - but it isn't there. So if you take out the bad explanations - what do you make of the rest of his play, is he scumhunting? does his interaction with other players make you feel town or scum about him? Will he be useful to town in the later parts of the game?

Do you prefer to play town or scum in mafia games?
1) I'm the most town as fuck guy around here.
HITD is obviously my top scum-read.
2) I avoid my predecessor's post on policy. a.k.a. I don't have one.
3) You cannot separate a player from any of his posts unless they have a post restriction. You can't have the good part(I'm being generous) of HITD without the bad. I don't even like any of it. I don't think I've mentioned parallelism in this game yet, but this looks a lot like newb scum from another game. Very much so.

I've never rolled scum, so I can't really say I have a preference.

Thanks for your reply HighShroomish I'm gonna go with a few follow ups to keep us all ticking along:

1) Excluding yourself who is your strongest town read?

2) Read chitmap2510's posts - tell me whether you read him town or scum please. Policy isn't a good enough excuse.

3) I agree - it's hard to see passed the points I mention about HiddenInTheDark. I think I'm stuck on a strong town vibe I had from his early posts that I just can't shake - but in not being able to stick a solid reason on my town read it I'm doing exactly the same thing I'm saying is making me think he is scummy when he does :- a poorly supported line of thinking.

Regarding the parallelism - is the other new scum game one that he has played in or just something that strikes you as familiar from another player? Is it a game you've played in or read?

I'm now starting to question all my reads - which leaves me with a big pile of uncertainty in the middle - no use. I'm off to re-read ISOs and find someone to put a vote on.

[Town]

-------jon_h61-----YurikoJasmine--HiddenInTheDark-Espeonage-VictorDeAngelo--HighShroomish---------

[Scum]

Matti · Post Post #406 (isolation #14) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:44 pm

In post 404, VictorDeAngelo wrote:Some thoughts -

Matti's final question of 393 has the whiff of protecting HITD.

Assuming you are referring to question 3) final part "Will he be useful in the later parts of the game" ? and not "Do you like playing scum or town?" - If so then my thinking here is that even if I accept he is town (and I'm not sold on that - more later) then I'm not convinced he is an asset later in the game - perhaps he will have more information to work with then but I'm not sure - I'd rather have someone who can put a set of reasons together that help me understand their thinking rather than "I have some evidence I can't show you" or "because I do". I was wondering if HighShroomish thought similarly - hence the question.

If you are referring to another question - please be more specific and I'll get back everyone on that.

In post 404, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
396 also looks bad.

Assuming that you mean looks scummy? I'm asking a player I consider very town a question about his thinking on you. I'm even going so far as to make sure he understands he isn't under pressure to reveal his specific info/knowledge but attempt to learn a bit more about what sort of knowledge it is - and therefore by default lean a bit more about you. If he is reading you town and you aren't then I can see why you've had such a strong reaction to this. You are normally more organised in pointing out the things you see as bad play or flaws - simply "looks bad" is a bit of a aberration it feels. Would you care to go into more detail on how this post "looks bad" from your point of view?

I'll let you get back to us all on that - but taking your premise a little further "that I am scummy" due to 396 - then what exactly am I doing in this post as scum - sucking up to jon_h61 for town cred? having some sort of scum conversation? Naturally I don't see it, but I'm happy to discuss what you think is happening to bust a few myths and get us moving forward.

Spoiler:

Note - If instead of 'looks bad' = 'looks scummy' you actually meant 'looks bad' = 'bad play' then I'd appreciate if you can explain the bad play and what a better course of action would be - I'll take all advice under consideration.

In post 404, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
Also HITD, what is your current read on Espeonage? With reasons please.

Also very interested in this - doubt we'll get anything though.

With more ISOs reviewed I'm still feeling my strongest scum read on the dritan/chitmap2510/HighShroomish slot - HighShroomish is very welcome into the game but his posts so far have done nothing to significantly change my reads. As mentioned in 398 it's time to place a vote -

Vote : HighShroomish

Matti · Post Post #409 (isolation #15) » Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:37 am

In post 408, HighShroomish wrote:And that should answer your 404 victor.

He asked you about jon_h61 and YurikoJasmine. So I don't believe it's answered. Stop shying away from giving information or interacting - if you are town then this should be a relatively straightforward thing to do.

In post 407, HighShroomish wrote:2) Mmm not happening. I prefer not to feel discouraged or cocky when replacing in. I probably will on the next game day, when it won't be affecting my play in any way.

Ok - I can see your reasons - makes me feel like you aren't bothering to interactl with me much beyond simple answers however.

In post 407, HighShroomish wrote:
Regarding parallelism- not a game with him. I would constantly be talking to him with random subjects the whole game more than likely. It's a game I read with another new scum. Please don't make me link it. I read like 20 games on here before I joined, and I have no clue which ones had what in them. Heck I don't even remember 90% of the names...

Ok, more words, thanks. So your vote right now is on HiddenInTheDark - who, in my view, seems scummiest when he has gut reads he can't back up - or won't. You then proceed to do the same thing in the quote above. In response to a question about him.

Either you are being lazy, which I can allow but I don't think helps us, and are using the HiddenInTheDark position (by some form of monkey-see monkey-do) which hasn't got him lynched yet - or you are just blustering and this is all cobblers.

To probe slightly further - what you are saying is that you can remember clearly reading another game on here before you joined this site (Dec 15th 2013) and that this memory was jogged when you reviewed HiddenInTheDark's play after replacing into this game (mid March 2014). You don't remember the game, the names of the players (was it definately newbie scum?), and don't seem to want to link it, yet you are convinced this is newbie scum play that you've seen before in the game you read previously. I believe the phrase you used was "very much so" in describing how close to newbie scum play you felt HiddenInTheDark's play was - not something you do when unsure of yourself.

Bravo - I applaud this analysis I think this gives us a solid position to go forward, certainly for you, and perhaps for the rest of us - now, you know what's coming next don't you, all you have to do is - link the game and highlight the player. and their playstyle that runs parallel to HiddenInTheDark's play please.

Either do that or I call cobblers on the whole response and am even happier with my vote being on you.

To be clear, if you put the effort into the search and produce this link to the newbie scum game and I'll need to reassess my view of your slot. The vote is there to make you interact one way or another

(VictorDeAngelo)

I can see where you are going with your next post delighting in the "Matti white knighting HiddenInTheDark" scenario. Take that view by all means :

(Everyone)

HighShroomish jumps on HiddenInTheDarks bandwagon very quickly after he joins the game.

He has pretty limited support for this line of reasoning (without mirroring your/VictorDeAngelo's views).

His actions mimic some of those of HiddenInTheDark that I say make HiddenInTheDark look scummier.

Are you/VictorDeAngelo tunnelling on HiddenInTheDark now to the detriment of other cases?

VictorDeAngelo has voted for HighShroomish's slot before - has his recent play persuaded you he is not worth a vote?

I'm prepared to be talked around about HiddenInTheDark as town but feelings and gut won't do it. I think the above are solid examples of poor to scum play by HighShroomish, until someone can give me a better case or show me how I'm reading the above wrong - my vote stays.

Matti · Post Post #445 (isolation #16) » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:58 am

are you suggesting that jon_h61 seems to state there IS a RB in play?

Presupposes scum knowledge?

Matti · Post Post #469 (isolation #17) » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:17 am

Firstly I don't fully understand the way I'm being cleared by goodmorning. Is this because someone in the slot previously is just super-town for you? - And you've never got them wrong...ever? Or is it more of a position to work from in a sea of uncertainty? - I raise it as I'm suprised by the 100% figure more than anything to be honest.

I'm liking your playstyle however I'm still suspicious of the slot from Espeonage's time. I can understand you have a better view on how he plays and how might be a potential way for him to play as his first IC game - however I'm hardly going to take that on board much from the next person in the slot that I already suspect.

In post 463, goodmorning wrote:
I know I'm probably the lynch today. I'm OK with that. But if I go today, jon needs to go tomorrow. No talking himself out of it.

Don't like that though.

My thoughts behind HighShroomish being scum got fairly heavily attacked by both HighShroomish and VictorDeAngelo and haven't made any progress since - so assume I'm either talking rubbish or I'm seeing something nobody else is.

Since my scum read and attempt at pushing on someone to see where that gets us was pretty poor and since goodmorning has come in she is going to town on my strongest town read in jon_h61 I'm kind of struggling to get my head around things.

I'm ISOing and seeing what else I can contribute - any thoughts on the process gratefully received.

Matti · Post Post #490 (isolation #18) » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:46 am

My three scumspects are still VictorDeAngelo, but I suspect that is more OMGUS against his method of playing, Espeonage's slot which is seeming a little more town by dint of goodmorning's reasoning than anything else but still feels scummy and as Ive attempted to rationalise in previous posts - HighShroomish due to previous slot occupants and initial posts.

Matti · Post Post #525 (isolation #19) » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:26 am

Warning wall of text folks

Spoiler:

HighShroomish - Interaction, this is great. And what I've wanted with you from the start. This is more interaction than I felt you've given all game. For me the more the interaction the more town - but what do I know.

I feel that you joined the game and then immediately joined the only existing vote on a player with limited explanation.

You responded to initial questions from me with a joke response and a refusal to offer information on your own slot. This got me OMGUSing you - gotta be fair and state that.

You cite HiddenInTheDarks playstyle as a newb scum tell from another game. I ask you to provide backup which you don't.

I'm asking for some evidence which could bring me on board with your scum read that is within your power to present and you are choosing not to.

So I guess you are just lazy or feel you don't need to convince me of your case and get my vote - ok.

"And I reccommend you don't doubt my memory. I don't take notes for a reason." you say in 419

What - you're telling me to just believe you when you say you remember another game where, for instance, someone played like me so I must be scum - don't you dare doubt my memory! I think this game you are supposed to doubt things - it's you that brought your memory into this.

What does you taking notes, or not, have to do with HiddenInTheDark being scum? - Nothing.

What does this have to do with you having a convincing scum read without presenting the damning evidence you talked about? - Everything

You followed VictorDeAngelo in voting on HiddenInTheDark at the start - I think this is HighShroomish looking for an easy vote.

You put nothing out about any player unless responding to questions - this doesn't seem pro town to me but could be playstyle I guess.

You seem convinced HiddenInTheDark is scum following VictorDeAngelo's vote - then echo jon_h61's thinking on goodmorning and move your vote there from HiddenInTheDark. I'd assume therefore that they are scum partners because nobody has refuted the case (unproven despite evidence available and asked for) about HiddenInTheDark. Or is goodmorning the easier lynch now?

442 - You have one scum read on jon_h61 or goodmorning from the townclears on you. The two players who have been interacting the most and there was a high likelihood of today's lynch coming from that pair. Setting yourself up for the easy vote again in my view.

Then we have 3 posts in 40 minutes - after jon_h61 highlights that we are near to deadline and you haven't produced anything from this crap-ton of info you've been getting yet we get:-

The theatrical setup of 517 and 518 lead through to your thoughts on me in 519 that I addressed above - the other players can read them and decide.

The summary is -
Post 519 contained emotional language, some misunderstandings from you, some scratching around from you, some points I completely agree with, and some points I'd like further explained.

You've found a player in me who's clearly not town read you before - and who has not posted for 3 days - and convinced yourself I'm scum. I think if you believed you had a solid case you wouldn't need all the theatre and pointed language to be clear about how I've slipped if I was scum.

I'm going to allow myself a little licence here and be glad that you've done independant work and actually found a player nobody else thought was scum and pushed a move on them - oh but wait no, you just followed on the coat tails of VictorDeAngelo (513), again, and took the hint from jon_h61 in 498.

I credit you with seeing how the wind blows very well but I think you are playing the game of going with the wind rather than thinking for yourself.

Now if you can remove my OMGUS of HighShroomish which I freely admit is an element here - then I still feel he has scum elements - I'd like to know what you all think.

My vote stays - convince me it should be elsewhere I don't think HiddenInTheDark is scum.

Matti · Post Post #529 (isolation #20) » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:27 pm

HighShroomish wrote:No clue what happened to the formatting at the end, sorry.
Fixed. Something about carving up the
tag into two quote blocks blew up the formatting. -Flay

Thanks for the reply HighShroomish - I'm at work now so have just scanned it - I'll get a better response out later today - 9-10 hours from now dependent upon work.

Matti · Post Post #594 (isolation #21) » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:38 pm

HighShroomish - not forgotten - will post tonight after I get out of work

Matti · Post Post #610 (isolation #22) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:52 pm

In post 605, HighShroomish wrote:Matti, I'm waiting.

I appreciate the patience - I haven't forgotten and I'm not avoiding intentionally.

I got out of work at 10pm last night and am back here now. I'll get something together today.

Matti · Post Post #616 (isolation #23) » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:18 am

I'm going to address the parts of HighShroomish's last wall post that I think will either take me forward as a player or us forward as a town. Apologies if it seems like I'm ignoring anything, please highlight those elements and I'll revisit them if you'd like. I'm trying not to get into a position where we are just head to head to no town benefit. Plus I'm tight on time.

In post 519, HighShroomish wrote:
2) Your interactions with me have a good amount of bull shit in them.

I would counter with your recent posts about me have a significant amount of bias in them and seem scummier because of it.

I don't feel there is any bull shit in my interactions with you that I won't have addressed in this post - point them out to me and I'll deal with them if I can - if not and I'm just lying to get you lynched - you got me - do the work and earn the lynch.

I think I explained fairly decently what the bull shit was. The only thing is you didn't quote it.

Then I'm missing it, sorry, help me out and highlight it in a way I simply can't miss and let's get to that. I don't think I bull shitted you.

in post 526, HighShroomish wrote:

This is where my post gets a bit confusing. This goes back up to the area of the posts before our interaction. It's fluff. Scum/town hunting is pulling reactions out of people and getting answers to questions, getting reads. You've just been picking them up as you've been going along.

Our interaction was started with questions from me - how have I been picking reads up as I go along - genuinely interested in learning a decent alternative to what I've been doing so far.

Regarding the HiddenInTheDark stuff :

"Okay, that was a rather harsh on my part. You can't create a read on someone if you exclude some of there posts. No matter if you take out the good or the bad. It will probably give you a wrong impression of that person. You have to take into calculation all their posts, as they all are part of their play."
I guess I viewed things a little differently from you however I can see why you reacted the way you did - :shrug: I'm trying to find ways to look at things and get information out. I'm not necessarily going to hit a good way or method first time each time.

You are right you can't ignore scummy play - I guess what I'm trying to put across was that while I felt there was scummy play from HiddenInTheDark - no arguments there - my over-riding feeling was one of misplaced or messed up town. So I was looking to see if there was any support for this idea from you - but in a rather messed up manner.

I appreciate the pointers and the discussion on this it really helps me clarify a lot of my thinking by having to justify it like this.

In post 519, HighShroomish wrote:
"And then Matti proceeds to agree with me that you can't separate a player from his posts. WHAT THE FUCK."

At no point do I ask you to separate the player from the posts.

Uh, yeah you did...

No I don't believe I did as I was looking at a player from some of his posts - different views again, this is a contest that doesn't help.

In post 519, HighShroomish wrote:
3) As far as I can tell, in his 409, he thinks I'm tunneling HITD. I asked him one question. I'm tunneling on Matti more than HITD, and I'm not even tunneling!

I did not mean to imply you were tunnelling - it was directed to VictorDeAngelo - it was a poorly worded post. The comments were to everyone so I feel it's clear that the (you) in question wasn't HighShroomish.

Thanks for clearing that up.

No bother - we are getting there and I'm learning a lot.

In post 519, HighShroomish wrote:
4) This should sum up another part of his 409 decently as well-
You memory better be perfect as hell or you are definitely scum.

I'm sorry this doesn't make sense to me - please expand on it. -

You explained this one - I now understand what you meant by that post.

My aim was not to say remember perfectly or be scum but to say that I'd like you to offer some support for your position that isn't just your opinion. I appreciate it's a lot to do, but in one way of viewing it, you offer an opinion and, with a chance to back it up, don't. I see that as somewhat scummy. I shouldn't have cast doubt on your memory that was childish.

And that jaw is going to need to get a bit stronger if you want to get into wall wars

You aren't wrong. I'm struggling to keep up with all this and keep things straight.

HighShroomish wrote:

I'm struggling not to write a huge thesis to this already big post. Please don't tempt me. It would probably get me mod killed or force replaced.

Ok, I'm struggling with the size of your posts as it is I don't need any more to deal with! I still feel the way that I stated above - that your playstyle is strongly built around your (pretty strong) force of playing and posting. I guess I feel it keenly as a new player - glass jaw again perhaps?

In post 519, HighShroomish wrote:
"And he goes with the flow, except that he isn't changing his read on me"

So exactly how am I going with the flow? By being the only player voting for you? By making you be the only player voting for me? This sentence makes no sense to me - could you please explain [2] it further?
You are spot on about me not posting for 3 days but some of your points seem contradictory I'm going with the flow, except....Doesn't work for me - but I'm biased.
By having the same reads as most of the other players except for the fact that you are scum reading me.
In post 519, HighShroomish wrote:
", which he could hardly do now without drawing suspicion. "

I totally disagree. I think you can change reads anytime based on posts and interactions.
Simply swapping votes with little to no reason would DEFINATELY draw suspicion. I'm not swapping MY vote.

If you suddenly stopped voting me along with giving up on trying to get people to vote me, then that would most definitely draw some sort of suspicion.

So you agree with me - great. Facts: I stopped being active in the thread and kept my vote on you. My read on you was slightly scummy.

I was actually very serious in saying I was the most town as fuck GUY around here. And did I mention I said nothing about girl?(yes, I just did that)

I totally missed that.

And that wasn't OMGUS. What I did with voting you was more OMGUS than what you did.

Ok I'm not understanding OMGUS in that case - I had understood it was the response to something that another player has done that you don't agree with hence the reaction OhMyGodYouSuck. No?

I'm on the "coat tails of VictorDeAngelo" because he posted before I was able to. I "took the hint from jon_h61" because I was busy up until then.

I see how you dismiss my points however I don't know if that's true or not and I will never find out. I say your play feels scummy to me because of my points above (if I don't accept your explanation).

Now if you can remove my OMGUS of HighShroomish which I freely admit is an element here - then I still feel he has scum elements.

Yours wasn't OMGUS. Just sayin.

Damnit - trying to walk the walk and failing. So I just reacted to your response then, no OMGUS - whatever that is.

My vote stays - convince me it should be elsewhere I don't think HiddenInTheDark is scum.

It's easy to say now but I'm happy at least that I could see the newb town struggling in HiddenInTheDark's play though it is easy to see why I could. So I've been able to get some reads right at least.

Right now HighShroomish and myself are busy back and forwarding about each other to much more effect on his part than mine, no surprise there really. I don't like his play style but his method of countering my points seems organised and I'd normally attribute town leaning to something like that so he's less scummy because of this. Now his willingness to interact and try and help out with my learning helps my view as well. I don't see much benefit in scum doing that, or am I being naive?

That said I'm hardly promoting the interaction with these absences - my apologies all around - if this is not enough for you guys I'll replace out. We have 10 + days to discuss and vote and I don't want to limit our time if that'll affect town's chances. I've got a variable work schedule that I can't predict and it's been very busy. I'll do my very best to post once a day but I just can't guarantee it.

Responding to a few other points, chime in if I don't answer any points you've put to me:

jon_h61 (531) asked about my mafia experience. :- I've played the game two games in real life and this is my first game on the interwebs. I was town once and mafia once in those games.

VictoDeAngelo (611) said "Matti replaces into the SD/Drone role. He only focuses on four players - Espe/Jon/RC/Void - he just why are you voting for the person your voting for in four different ways. Looking back this questioning feels kinda forced"

I explain in that post why I pick those four players:

"Initial questions if you care to get back to me while I'm catching up - yes I'm likely to find the answers by reading, yes it'll be useful if you add something here to help me out as I don't have too long.
(Cherry-picking the more experienced players and the top voted player for now)"

I question HiddenInTheDark in (341), VictorDeAngelo and HiddenInTheDark in (364), VictorDeAngelo and Espeonage and HighShroomish in (378).

Hope that clears that up?

VictorDeAngelo also asked who I would have voted for in day 1 - my post (364) details my reads as I got caught up. I'm those reads I felt Espeonage and chitmap2510 were scummiest but not super scum so one of those would have received my vote

Everyone wants more interaction from me and some reads so I'll summarise my position on the four of you:

HighShroomish - Scum read originally from the chitmap2510 days and his earliest interactions which is starting to fade a bit with the walls and me having to make myself understood.

VictorDeAngelo - original nullish read moved scummy and has become more town as he contributes - would be a bit stronger town but, as with HighShroomish, I'm not a fan of the playstyle and in particular his interactions with dritan and Drone67 in the early part of the game. I find his recent reviews useful to me.

jon_h61 - Seems town. Felt like that at the start and still does unless I'm missing something obvious? His focussing on other players is a slight negative aspect but his willingness to talk (and talk and talk) around those points makes him feel town.

[Note - is what jon_h61 is doing to goodmorning tunnelling?]

goodmorning - Town read of my slot based solely on her read of SafetyDance. While I'm the beneficiary I'm not wholly happy that as town we guarantee town based on read alone. That's like me accepting what HighShroomish tells me without questioning it. Not a huge fan. However, the playstyle of goodmorning is one I like with some of her points making sense to me as a newb. I'm reading this slot null due to goodmorning's slight town lean and Espeonage's scum lean

HighShroomish - could you outline why you voted goodmorning yesterday - is it all obvious in the thread or are you adding in anything else?

[TOWN] --- jon_h61 --- VictorDeAngelo - goodmorning - HighShroomish -------- [SCUM]

6 possible pairs of SCUM in this list of which I'll discount those including jon_h61 for the moment -

1) VictorDeAngelo + goodmorning
2) goodmorning + HighShroomish
3) Highshroomish + VictorDeAngelo

I'll get to looking into those pairs now and will get back soon as I can.

Matti · Post Post #618 (isolation #24) » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:37 pm

Sorry for the text wall goodmorning.

If I can be less verbose I will.

I thought HighShroomish made the point that my lack of effort in 'disappearing' was close to a scum tell? Wouldn't that make effort alignment indicative at that point?

Matti · Post Post #622 (isolation #25) » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:25 pm

jon_h61 wrote:
In post 618, Matti wrote:Sorry for the text wall goodmorning.

If I can be less verbose I will.

I thought HighShroomish made the point that my lack of effort in 'disappearing' was close to a scum tell? Wouldn't that make effort alignment indicative at that point?
If you're Town and get hung up on trying to look like you're doing the "Townie" thing, you've just fallen into a trap. If you're scum, well, carry on.

On the issue of walls, lots of people skip them. They're mostly for the two players walling back and forth. I, personally, read every one of them. But conciseness
is
a virtue.

How on earth have I fallen into a trap? Could you explain please?

Either I'm town and I explained why I thought a point had been made regarding effort and alignment or I'm scum and I did the same.

Again, I get the feeling I'm missing something.

------------------

My gut/original reads put the chitmap2510 and Espeonage slots a bit more scummy than the others.

Matti · Post Post #626 (isolation #26) » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:57 pm

I don't

think

I'm worried about looking too town - but right now I'm pretty confused. I'm concerned with answering HighShroomish's points as clearly as I understand them with may aim to either show him how I'm town and what my thought processes were - or to fail in this and learn from the process.

If goodmorning is scum then who is her partner?

Matti · Post Post #627 (isolation #27) » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:58 pm

Um, isn't a GM vote now inviting a scum hammer?

Matti · Post Post #630 (isolation #28) » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:02 pm

Vote Goodmorning

Matti · Post Post #631 (isolation #29) » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:03 pm

Vote: goodmorning

Matti · Post Post #637 (isolation #30) » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:32 pm

I don't get the goodmorning / Matti scum team - for me goodmorning / HighShroomish feels more likely still - but I'm wall-biased.

I see what you mean re the scum making people look bad. My aim is to be clear on what I'm thinking and work on town to make sure they see that. It's pretty naive but then again I'm not at the level where I can play as HighShroomish seems to be doing with movement from town-scum-town.

Matti · Post Post #653 (isolation #31) » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:26 am

Thanks for hosting Mr Flay and apologies for my absences at times.

Newbie replacing into a scum position was a horrible way to play my first game on here - thanks to all the other players and naturally my scum partner, cheers Victor.

I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on my play if you have them.

HS - I can see why you don't have those walls often, it must take it out of you. Your playstyle confused the crap out of me as a new player.

I thought Victor trod a nice line between scum and town, HITD I really felt for, along with VoidWalker who just got themselves on the wrong end of a lynch. I felt that RC and Neil were just unlucky and didn't have much chance - we got lucky with the kill on RC.

I couldn't believe our luck with goodmorning's read on my slot so it made it much easier to trade posts with HS especially after goodmorning intimated she wasn't reading the walls. I'm lucky goodmorning read my slot town and that jon never really looked at it either.

I'm not clear on if HS had a case or just found a suitable target to push on - nobody seemed to pick up on thankfully.

Thanks for the game all.

Matti · Post Post #675 (isolation #32) » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:18 am

No problem with linking the mafia qt.

It'll show exactly how behind the game I was.

Lucky win for me tbh.