Newbie 1495 (DAY 4) - The One where Everyone got Murdered

[Jcozmo]

Hello, I need some time for a read through, I'm about 4 pages in, but I've got to head to work, I'll move through as quickly as possible and try and get back and post late tonight/early tomorrow latest(EST)

[Jcozmo]

1) I think he didn't have any notable actions, appears to me we was simply not playing either way.

2) I haven't played this game enough that I could say what his playable is in general, but in this particular game I lean towards scum

3) Naming a top 2 is difficult but #1 for me at this time would be Zayzeck

[Jcozmo]

Sorry, a few typos from auto correct, mean "he" for "we" in #1, and "play style" for "playable in #2

[Jcozmo]

1) I think he didn't have any notable actions, appears to me

he

was simply not playing either way.

2) I haven't played this game enough that I could say what his

play style

is in general, but in this particular game I lean towards scum

3) Naming a top 2 is difficult but #1 for me at this time would be

Xayzeck

Sorry had to fix multiple words now that I'm at a computer instead of my phone.

[Jcozmo]

Well I think that's two separate issues.

1. I was asked a question and answered it. You are asking a different question so I'll answer that as well. IMO He hasn't taken a line in this game that furthers the townie agenda, and that seems clearer to me than with others who have muddied the waters more. Several other people here have had or still seem to be of that same opinion (scum) yet no one has really voted that way and I'm really not sure why. After posting my first impression I went over some iso's and that point seems more pronounced. I feel like the lack of contribution by the replaced players has something to do with it.

Your other statement doesn't make much sense to me. Of course you know nothing about me, that's the whole reason I'm even in this game currently, I'm not sure why my having an opinion when I had 430 posts-worth of material to work with would be troubling.

[Jcozmo]

Can you explain your scumread on Xayzeck?

Just saying he's scum at this point when we have nothing to read you with is troubling.

....

Why didn't Enomis' post

similar

to this did not bother you then...?

Here are some reasons:
1) Enomis is a player that you have played with. He is a nonentity to me, whereas you already know his modus operandi.
2) Jcozmo is a replacement with no prior game experience. He replaced someone that did nothing but straight up parrot what another player (the cop) was saying, which was a rather bland list of reads anyway.
3) You beat me to it.

Though the one thing I would like to point out is that his response is kind of shitty. I don't really like the way he writes this giant post that boils down to "lol u suk ur wrong." His townread on Wolfy is alright...I guess? I still think it's kind of a stretch, but if multiple people are saying it then I might just be wrong about Wolfy.

Well I think that's two separate issues.

1. I was asked a question and answered it. You are asking a different question so I'll answer that as well. IMO He hasn't taken a line in this game that furthers the townie agenda, and that seems clearer to me than with others who have muddied the waters more. Several other people here have had or still seem to be of that same opinion (scum) yet no one has really voted that way and I'm really not sure why. After posting my first impression I went over some iso's and that point seems more pronounced. I feel like the lack of contribution by the replaced players has something to do with it.

Your other statement doesn't make much sense to me. Of course you know nothing about me, that's the whole reason I'm even in this game currently, I'm not sure why my having an opinion when I had 430 posts-worth of material to work with would be troubling.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but your whole scumread basically boils down to "he hasn't been contributing?" Why is it that not contributing makes him scum in this circumstance? If people contribute, are they automatically town?

The fact that you only have one scumread based off of someone "not contributing" is somewhat odd. Contributions are not an inherently townie trait; scum can push town players under the guise of "being town." They have voices as well. If scum players contribute to mislynches, how would you go about finding them?

Here's another question: who do you currently townread? What is the reasoning behind that?

You've jumped to quite a few conclusions there. And put some words in my mouth.

No I would not say my whole scumread boils down to not contributing - It's what he has contributed that leads me to a scumread. No, I do not have only one scumread. I said that naming a top 2 is difficult. Naming a top 1 was not.

Who do I town read?

Mora, BBT, and MM - The first two for fairly transparent scumhunting throughout, the last due mostly to the panic claim incident.

If you are looking for a hyper-analyzed report for each read I have this will be disappointing, because I won't have that. I read here somewhere, and agree, that true scumslips are likely rarer than advertised. Most posts are made with a purpose, and what those are set to accomplish leads me to a general feel for the motivations of the poster. I read this game thread in context and then followed up by reviewing ISO's to confirm or change my "gut" feel on specific people. This is where my initial reads have come from from.

[Jcozmo]

If Wolfy is town, then the only people I'd probably vote off today are Xayzeck and Mala, unless I'm forgetting someone.

Those are my favourites too...
But I still haven't heard enough from enomis or jcozmo in particular so I'm not in a great rush.

So, jcozmo, let's have some reads with reasons.
Do you agree with Moratorium that I am town?
What about BBT?
Are you in the Mala camp where one of us must be scum?
What about Shinobi, Mala, Mora and enomis?
You've already said you think Xayzeck is scum - is that still the case?

1. Do you agree with Moratorium that I am town? No, not particularly. But I also don't know Mora's mother.
2. What about BBT? See above post
3. Are you in the Mala camp where one of us must be scum? No, this line didn't make a ton of sense to me. I'm not saying that one isn't, but I didn't agree with the reasoning that corners one of the two as scum.
4. What about Shinobi, Mala, Mora and enomis? For mora, see my last post. The others are Null to Null leans one way or the other for me.
5. You've already said you think Xayzeck is scum - is that still the case? Yes, I'm still comfortable with my what I said 11 hours ago. I guess I'm just headstrong like that.

[Jcozmo]

@Mala:
LOL. As if i will just play a completely different approach as scum from my town one. If i am like that, everyone would be catching my scum game all day. Also, i tend to change my town approaches. Maybe it's just adapting to the game?
Also, the reason i am abit out of sync with my meta is i just came back from a hiatus?

Are you still going on with your wolfy/BBT scum thingy? The logic is just bad. And how did Xayz/eno scum thingy form up? Or is that just POE.
In my opinion, you are playing pretty bad this game. Your scum reading seems off. I am not sure if its because you are just scum or because you are just having a bad game.(which you say you can't read newbies and stuff)

This bothers me. I have seen scum AND town both use this argument as a counterargument, but usually see it from scum more.

People play differently as either alignments to mess meta up so tbh anything is possible and this is very WIFOMY.

Or the reason why you are out of sync is because you replaced into a scum slot..?

Yep, I still believe at least one of them are scum. The logic isn't bad, but thanks for trying to dismiss anything I say. If you actually read the thread Xayz posted something that looked like a scum slip and I just don't like your slot. Your pred never posted anything of value to be fair so your intro in didn't give me warm and fuzzies.

Again nice dismissal of my reads.

I don't like you, you are scum and please eat rope, before or after I die, preferably before.

The last flailing words of a dying cat. This guy is your biggest suspicion, huh? You are presenting a wifom argument about wifom. Get lynched, please.

@mala:
And i am scum because you don't like me.

No, you are scum because it's convenient.

Deadline is in three days. At least two other players not currently voting for Mala have explicitly expressed a scum read on her. I'm pointing this out explicitly here because the last page or so of conversation feels.... like a distraction. Votes on Malakittens, por favor.

Why Mala over Xayzeck?

[Jcozmo]

I'll still definitely listening to anyone who feels like taking the time to convince me otherwise, but at the moment my vote is Xayzeck. That seems like the lowest hanging scum-fruit to me. I dont see the case for Mala being that strong.

VOTE: Xayzeck

[Jcozmo]

Why Mala over Xayzeck?

Because she's the Wolfy/BBT false dilemma originator (#214)

Valid point.

Because "We can either have a doc or a BP." after a cop claim seems like a scumslip.

I think this seems more like a mistake to me, the whole matrix scenario round-about I felt was a dead end with nothing to be learned, JMO though.

Because no reads, no scumhunting all day.

She did offer reads at one point before the wagon started, earlier than Xayzeck.

Because wifom arguments and "woe is me I'm terrible Day 1" instead of, you know, participation.
Because now, here, at the cusp of death, suddenly scumhunting, on a target with barely any posts, for bad reasons.

Valid, however I'm not sure that others here would not react similarly if put at L-1 at this point

Xayzeck is probably still in my top three (shinobi). Don't like him because of that meta-read on RVS stage and lurker-lynching mentality.

My responses in bold above. Agree on Xayzeck, are you meaning that you have Shinobi as the other in your top 3? I tend to lean that way as well.

[Jcozmo]

I'll still definitely listening to anyone who feels like taking the time to convince me otherwise, but at the moment my vote is Xayzeck. That seems like the lowest hanging scum-fruit to me. I dont see the case for Mala being that strong.

VOTE: Xayzeck

Why can't I be low hanging fruit as town? May I know why you are scumreading me? If you're confident in mescum, who would my buddy be and why?

I just feel overall, if you are looking at what on Day 1, a town is trying to accomplish and what a scum would be trying to accomplish, your posts lean (to me) decidedly towards the latter. And I know that while Wolfy was more in the role of lynch-the-lurker ring leader (noted), it seemed like you may have seen an opportunity there and attempted to capitalize on it.

[Jcozmo]

I'll still definitely listening to anyone who feels like taking the time to convince me otherwise, but at the moment my vote is Xayzeck. That seems like the lowest hanging scum-fruit to me. I dont see the case for Mala being that strong.

VOTE: Xayzeck

Why can't I be low hanging fruit as town? May I know why you are scumreading me? If you're confident in mescum, who would my buddy be and why?

I just feel overall, if you are looking at what on Day 1, a town is trying to accomplish and what a scum would be trying to accomplish, your posts lean (to me) decidedly towards the latter. And I know that while Wolfy was more in the role of lynch-the-lurker ring leader (noted), it seemed like you may have seen an opportunity there and attempted to capitalize on it.

Correction - Wolfy was not ring leader for lynch the lurker - Just another that seemed to be nudging the wagon like Xayzeck.

[Jcozmo]

it seemed like you may have seen an opportunity there and attempted to capitalize on it

opportunity to lynch lurkers? I do recall saying that lynching lurkers would be a good idea after BBT did the paragraph on it, but I have yet to push for a lynch or a lurker for reasons I believe I have said before.

Am I misunderstanding you here?

Are you misunderstanding me? No, not really. What I read was BBT making some points (which in context the no-shows were really hurting the game at the time) about lynching a lurker, and then rather quickly two others (yourself and wolfy) started to nudge that cart down the hill.

[Jcozmo]

I just feel overall, if you are looking at what on Day 1, a town is trying to accomplish and what a scum would be trying to accomplish, your posts lean (to me) decidedly towards the latter. And I know that while Wolfy was more in the role of lynch-the-lurker ring leader (noted), it seemed like you may have seen an opportunity there and attempted to capitalize on it.

I'll still definitely listening to anyone who feels like taking the time to convince me otherwise, but at the moment my vote is Xayzeck. That seems like the lowest hanging scum-fruit to me. I dont see the case for Mala being that strong.

If you are looking for a hyper-analyzed report for each read I have this will be disappointing, because I won't have that.... I read this game thread in context and then followed up by reviewing ISO's to confirm or change my "gut" feel on specific people. This is where my initial reads have come from from.

....*stare*....

Hi there, Jcozmo. I see you've joined our little game of Mafia here. Welcome! I'm sure glad that you were able to replace in and get rid of that other lurking player whose name I conveniently forget at the moment. Say, would you care to step over here a moment and discuss a thing? I promise it will be short and to the point.

...

So, I see you've voted for Xayzeck. Hey, man, that's cool, he's all evil and shit, that's probably a super good move and you're probably a super smooth guy for doing it. So here's the thing.. it's just a little thing, it knaws at me, but it's little, it's a triffle, I'm sure you can explain it all away and I'll go back to driving the MalaMobile down this bigass black tunnel to D2-LynchMoraVille.

Um... all those words you used up there? See those grey boxes like? Those words.... they don't mean anything. It's literally a big bunch of no information whatsoever.... so.... is there any chance that, you know, quote a thing? One thing... anything! A thing that Xayzeck says that kinda backs up the whole grey boxes of shitwords you've got going on up there?

I'd hate to use a word like... uh... "evidence"... because then I wouldn't hear the end of it from... someone....

But yeah....

I like your sense of humor, its right up my alley. Well for the most part, you're right in that I'm not saying a whole lot specifically. There are two things with regards to Xayzeck, bear with me because I'm going to start off with some more "meaningless" bullshit.

1. In general his posts are seemingly there to distract, throw out bread crumbs in random directions. He's not trying to outright lead any wagons, and he's not furthering the investigation in any way that I can see. If forced I guess I'll end up getting quotes, but its right there in the ISO for anyone to see what I mean.

2. If you demand a specific incident the best I've got is that when BBT went ahead and made the case for lynching the lurker, he seemed to like that idea. And that luke warm nudge was pretty much the strongest push he has made towards lynching

anyone

to this point. That does not seem very "towny" to me, 18-19 pages into the game.

No, it isn't a case I'd be bringing to any courtroom. But I'm not sold on Mala's case being scummier.

[Jcozmo]

There's a huge difference between my scum and town play. If you see me prod dodging and getting prodded there's a huge chance I'm scum. If you are activity I'm likely town.

Code: Select all

Micro 7, scum				              2nd highest poster, not prodded
Mini 1344, scum                        2nd highest poster, prodded early D1
Mini 1387, scum				            5th highest poster, not prodded
Micro 66, scum				             4th highest poster, not prodded
Open 425, scum                         5th highest poster, prodded early D1
Newbie 1309, scum			             3rd highest poster, not prodded
Mini 1420, scum				            replaced in, not prodded

This game				                  4th highest poster, not prodded

These are the scum games on your wiki. Your record does not correlate with your statement.

How can we get the town version of this?

[Jcozmo]

Shinobi setting off every alarm in the station.

I was about to post this anyways, after re-reading the last time he put Mala at L-1, but then I come back to the present and see another dance step.

Don't even know how to process that yet.

[Jcozmo]

We have 3 days left. 3 days... Mala has 3 votes and 2 people are not voting. Shinobi can't commit and Xayzeck doesn't want to place his vote on her either.

I think we're looking at a very serious possibility of a no lynch on D1 unless we sort ourselves out.

This assumes that Mala is the only option for this group. I mean, any lynch is better than no lynch D1, so if it was 30 seconds left on the clock and it was hammer Mala or NL, I'd pick up the hammer. That being said it's not who I'd rather lynch, hence my current vote.

[Jcozmo]

Saying you take a completely different approach as scum and town while you had a scum game ongoing where you were active is like lying straight to our face.
VOTE: malakittens
This is

L-1

.

I knew that game would cause problems because that's the first scum game that was decent of mine in... 6 months.. All of my others suck. I was excited for the game for multiple reasons and you don't have access to scum gt. but I planned to manipliate the playerlist and my meta for that game. Also I played with every single player but one/two and I'm sick of them reading me like the back of their hand

Well that's enough for me. You deny the relevance of your old games and cite your newest example to the contrary of what you are selling as an outlier.

You've pushed meta so hard all game, so be it . Live by your meta, die by your meta.

Stating intent to hammer.

[Jcozmo]

Why am I suddenly not in the list when I was at the bottom of your list?

I'm still not seeing the mala thing to be honest. It just feels like townflailing over scumflailing right now.

Who is

your

strongest scumread then?

[Jcozmo]

Well I was hoping for more info before a hammer - didn't expect that much.

Xayzeck, again, what are your current reads?

[Jcozmo]

I don't know how I'm gonna make it through a full day one. I guess I'll need to do multiple games....

[Jcozmo]

What is a policy Lynch?

[Jcozmo]

Then, I saw this. Is this a scum slip? He seems certain there is a roleblocker...or am I reading too much into it? Either way, I'm really not sure about Enomis anymore and Mala's last ditch attempts to save herself may have actually worked.

It doesn't seem like Mala has much to do with this sudden turn around at all if you ask me.

[Jcozmo]

What the fuck is going on here?

A day ago Mora is driving the Mala wagon to the gallows, enomis puts here at L-1, I state intent to hammer. Shinobi halts everyone in there tracks for no actual reason that I can see to this point, a few posts later theres a train being run on enomis by Shinobi and Xayzeck and Mora's talking about non-existent scum slips (first actual bit of bad logic I've seen from him).

Why did Shinobi literally halt the lynch on Mala? Thats the key question right now for me.

[Jcozmo]

@Jcozmo: What do you make of this? What do you think of my arguments on Xayzeck/Shinobi?

I'm trying to figure out why Shinobi stuck his neck out so far for Mala. I actually don't think its all that likely she flips scum. So thats what I'm currently trying to reconcile. Also trying to understand this new enomis wagon and who benefits and why.

[Jcozmo]

@Jcozmo: What do you make of this? What do you think of my arguments on Xayzeck/Shinobi?

I'm trying to figure out why Shinobi stuck his neck out so far for Mala. I actually don't think its all that likely she flips scum. So thats what I'm currently trying to reconcile. Also trying to understand this new enomis wagon and who benefits and why.

Huh. And you stated intent to hammer and said you were convinced. What?

No i said it was enough. I stated intent for more information and was in no real hurry to drop it. I've never thought the case was great for Mala, I've been consistent on that. But I put here at #4 of 9, so it wouldn't have been close to the worst person the lynch D1.

[Jcozmo]

Huh. Then what do you mean by enough. Isn't enough => I am satisfied with lynching mala today and i scumread her.

What information did you expect to get by stating intent besides mala claiming?

I was just looking for more, I didnt have an expected outcome. As for the rest of what you are asking, keep in mind I'm trying to figure this game out on the fly, but I'm not sure its 100% critical that you hit scum D1. If shes #4 on my list, thats close enough to not be an egregious error and does provide enough clues as to how my remaining outlook would shake out with 7 left.

Meaning, as I understand it, Day one isnt lylo. So saying its enough to lynch D1 (

saying

mind, you, the hammer wasnt dropped with the known information at that point) doesnt to me necessarily have to mean I'm reading 100% scum.

[Jcozmo]

Shinobi:

You are an expert on only answer part of my questions and ignore other parts.
Shall i give you the prize for being selective questions answerer?

And for your townread,
The only thing i see you are townreading her of is because of her reposting her reads even before she die.
Any other stuff?
Thats all the big post of yours stated.

Did i just hear you say:"The issue is town and scum both lie"?? and i told you to give me a town motivation in this case and you could give me none but say it was a mistake. A mistake to what? A mistake to lie?
-------------------------------------------------

@Jcozmo:
Ok. What number is she on your list.

#4 (Xayzeck,Shinobi,Wolfy), but there is so much now to really digest, today's been crazy. So much more from you, more from shinobi, have to re-evaluate.

I kind of want someone to put you at L-1, just too see what happens. No offense, but Enomis @ L-2 has really been invigorating for the game so far.

[Jcozmo]

What lie Shinobi? Explain further.

[Jcozmo]

this shinobi-enomis "argument" just took a turn for the dumb

Indeed

[Jcozmo]

He pretty much said he was going to sleep. Less than 36 hours to go....

[Jcozmo]

Yeah I was having a few beers after work friday, hence my last couple of posts that day. What a freakin loonie train on Eno that was. Christ. I was reading on my phone and was going to respond but by the time I was home it was done. Not that I didnt see that coming Friday afternoon, it was either Mala or Eno, neither of which I though was scum but Eno wasn't even on the radar for me.

For Day 2, No ones play makes less sense as town than Shinobi's, who was high on my list of scum-possibles well before he went off the deep end. He was "so certain" Eno was scum for basically no valid reasons whatsoever, then after it becomes apparent that isnt the case, he starts lobbing grenades for Day 2 lynch candidates. He can go ahead and attempt to explain in a little more detail how I'm "scumreading like a motherfucker", that should contain some wonderfully thought out reasoning and logic, much like his long-winded reads on Wolfy and Eno.

What I see is he wanted Wolfy lynched because he had a 500-word open and shut case that he IMMEDIATELY abandoned when called out for it, then jumped on and off various wagons of town members until Lynch day.

So I'm inclined to vote Shinobi.

At the same time scums choice to NK Wolfy, not the claimed cop or anyone else, needs to be discussed. IMO a Wolfy lynch points directly at Shinobi, so that seems like a pretty stupid freaking NK if I'm Shinobi.

[Jcozmo]

I feel you have missed a very obvious, and quite important question out, why Wolfy? What the hell do scum gain from killing him? I felt sure that you [Mora] or myself was a N1 kill. I don't understand what a Wolfy death achieves?

Exactly.

[Jcozmo]

@Jcozmo - What do you feel scum gain from killing Wolfy?

There is only one obvious thing they gain IMO - Misdirection

Who was Wolfy on to? No one - No one at all. He voted for half the player in this game, and none for very long or for very pointed reasons. He was a non-threat to scum.

[Jcozmo]

It would be just dandy if we had a cop with some information for us D2......

[Jcozmo]

In fact to save myself the time can everyone answer that question; What do you think scum tried to achieve with killing Wolfy?

As well as, why did scum leave the cop claim alive?

You should answer those too BBT.

[Jcozmo]

I did review the ISO, there is nothing there. Scum killed him to either 1) Misdirect a D2 lynch to a specific player or 2) As Shinobi pointed out, just eliminate a town with extremely low chances of being mislynched in the near-term.

Either way I think its ballsy to not kill the cop claim gambling on lack of participation so far.

[Jcozmo]

Lots of stuff to address, I'll do it when I get home

It's obv we have doc though, so tbh atm I'm looking at Mora. Kept putting people at L-1, risking doc claims. That's scum motivation for me. I'll look through ISOs and think about it tho

Why would it be obvious we have a doc when the NK went through?

[Jcozmo]

Anyway right now I'm leaning Mora, whether or not it's a toss up between him or Shinobi or not

Can you tell me why, so I can address it further?

Basically if I were told "would you rather lynch Mora or <insert name here>" I would almost always say you.

Except maybe with Jcoz

Everybody else is townier than you

While the townread I had on you initially has kinda gone down with what enomis and the rest have said about you.

Vague as fuck and you'll probably hate me for it too

So wait, let me get this straight - You now feel that I am the scummiest person left alive at this point?

Please elaborate.

I am going to be semi MIA for a bit I have a few meetings here.

[Jcozmo]

IMO a Wolfy lynch points directly at Shinobi, so that seems like a pretty stupid freaking NK if I'm Shinobi.

Can you explain this to me? I don't get it.

I'm not Jcozmo, but I'll answer anyway: It's a wifom NK targeting argument.

I sincerely doubt Mora and Mala are buddies though, I don't expect Mora to bus Mala, and Mala to throw a fit at him. I mean, it could happen, but I weigh it as unlikely.

I, too, doubt that I am scum.

Correct, and one I'm willing to let go of after a night to think about it. Also agree with Xayzeck that essentially most of the NK talk is wifom arguments and worth less than my initial feelings yesterday. Still, if the NK was centered around things like "towny least likely to be mislynched", why wolfy and not BBT? That is a much stronger "unlikely to be lynched D2" candidate IYAM. But maybe he's a stronger candidate for doc protection and so round and round we go.......blah blah blah......I get the point.

[Jcozmo]

Wagon build on enomis...
1. Mala
2. Xayzeck
3. Shinobi
4. Mora
5.

None of us on the wagon so I'm looking at a scum driven wagon here...

really concerned that Mala's gone quiet again now the pressure is on enomis.
really concerned at Mora's back-off on Mala - starting to think that we're being played by an M&M (not MM) scum team.

I don't want to hammer but I even less want to no lynch.

I'm assuming since my vote is on you that you think i am one of the three...
I don't want your head on a platter - I voted you because I believed you were scum
If you convince me you're town I won't be trying to lynch you.
Only diamonds are forever.

I also include as a reason your false dilemma - me or BBT.

Anyways, looks like the wind is changing...

I am also trying to get my head around why Shinobi defended Mala so strongly? That's not scum play to me.

OK, so after ISO'ing Wolfy it seems pretty clear who he had in his sights.

*He states a scum-driven wagon on Enomis, I'm in agreement with this.

*Points finger towards a Mala and Mora scum-team, I'm down with that as well.

*Restates his reasons for voting Mala, showing he hasn't changed his mind on her yet.

*Then I noticed something pretty interesting. I think he was one of the only people left who felt sure that Shinobi is town. So, with a lot of people doubting Shinobi after his late D1 actions, kill his biggest defender in Wolfy, and it should be a pretty easy D2 lynch, right?

You said you ISO'd Wolfy Jcozmo, I'm surprised you missed this.

What do you think of what I have posted?

First, as far as me missing something, I don't think that I did. I don't think any of that specifies a target for Wolfy particularly when it's not taken out of context and looking at his whole ISO. I also think Wolfy being Shinobi's "biggest defender" its a huge stretch based on that single line, which basically just repeats what I had stated a few posts earlier. No where that I can see does he say he's sure Shinobi is town. He doesnt even come close to saying that. What he's saying is actually close to the opposite by saying that Enomis is a scum driven wagon, and his strongest town reads arent on it.

He also stated and you agree that he thought a potential Mora and Mala scum team was likely, which I feel is pretty close to the

least

likely scum team. If they are, then more power to them for an Oscar worth D1 performance. Hats off. I'm not buying that though.

I do find myself agreeing that its a scum driven wagon on Enomis though.

1. Mala
2. Xayzeck
3. Shinobi
4. Mora

5. BBT

2 of these five ARE scum, and 4 of the five were on the Enomis wagon. We are at an unbelievable disadvantage right now due to the cop claim D1. Sorry to keep piling on, MM, its just the truth.

I find myself leaning towards Mala as town, which leads me down a path that leans me toward Shinobi being town.

The case against Mora is almost too easy at this point. The points people are bringing up are valid, but I'm still getting a weird feeling that lynch is a trap.

By process of elimination that leaves you BBT, and Xayzeck as maybe #1a scum team possibilty, with a completely legit possibility that its one of that team plus Mora as #1b and #1c.

Now I'm just going to go back, re-read and question why I lean town on Shinobi if Mala is town. Perhaps that isnt valid.

[Jcozmo]

First, as far as me missing something, I don't think that I did. I don't think any of that specifies a target for Wolfy particularly when it's not taken out of context and looking at his whole ISO. I also think Wolfy being Shinobi's "biggest defender" its a huge stretch based on that single line, which basically just repeats what I had stated a few posts earlier. No where that I can see does he say he's sure Shinobi is town. He doesnt even come close to saying that. What he's saying is actually close to the opposite by saying that Enomis is a scum driven wagon, and his strongest town reads arent on it.

He also stated and you agree that he thought a potential Mora and Mala scum team was likely, which I feel is pretty close to the

least

likely scum team. If they are, then more power to them for an Oscar worth D1 performance. Hats off. I'm not buying that though.

I do find myself agreeing that its a scum driven wagon on Enomis though.

1. Mala
2. Xayzeck
3. Shinobi
4. Mora

5. BBT

2 of these five ARE scum, and 4 of the five were on the Enomis wagon. We are at an unbelievable disadvantage right now due to the cop claim D1. Sorry to keep piling on, MM, its just the truth.

I find myself leaning towards Mala as town, which leads me down a path that leans me toward Shinobi being town.

The case against Mora is almost too easy at this point. The points people are bringing up are valid, but I'm still getting a weird feeling that lynch is a trap.

By process of elimination that leaves you BBT, and Xayzeck as maybe #1a scum team possibilty, with a completely legit possibility that its one of that team plus Mora as #1b and #1c.

Now I'm just going to go back, re-read and question why I lean town on Shinobi if Mala is town. Perhaps that isnt valid.

It's not taken out of context. They are his last few posts of who he is pointing his finger at, I'm not sure why you're dismissing that. His whole ISO doesn't matter, it's what happened towards the end of D1 when the activity starting picking up that really matters.

How is it a huge stretch? He stated he didn't think Shinobi was scum based on his defence of Mala. Did anybody else state this? Or was everybody else in doubt of Shinobi's actions? I think you will find it's the latter.

Mala's flip had the potential to provide a lot of information that would have cleared some people and put suspicion on others. We were deprived of that due to all the last minute panic voting.

The last part is interesting. So I go from 'towniest person' to 'part of your number one scum team' in not a very long time at all.

Can you elaborate on your Mala being town read please. I think you will find this more appropriate than looking into Shinobi's actions.

Why is the case on Mora too easy? And if it is, why does this mean he isn't scum? People are bringing up valid points, and then you just dismiss them in your next phrase.

Case on Mora is too easy...but he could be part of a 'b' or 'c' scum team. Do you find that contradictory?

The ONLY definitive statement he makes is that its a scum driven wagon (which I agree with) and that he sees Mala and Mora a good possibility (which I strongly disagree with). You are making it out like what was saying made him a target for the NK, which I don't think those quotes make a strong case for.

How is it a huge stretch? Jesus man, he says ONE LINE "this seems town to me" and that means he "certain" Shinobi is town? Really? Thats not a stretch? He later calls out his town reads and guess who is NOT on the list? Shinobi.

My statements about Mora arent contradictory in the slightest, maybe you ought to read the post again - I say the points are valid, but it seems like a trap (just a feeling) then I dont even put his possibility of being even #2, its just 1b and 1c - why? because I didnt "dismiss" the points toward him at all.

Mala being town is just always been my read, and that got stronger as she was closest to lynch. I just never bought into that wagon. I think questioning my "read" on Shinobi is still the best option I have.

On you, its like I said, its more a process of elimination more than anything incriminating. We are all shooting in the dark here, essentially. I wouldnt say I scumread you to this point. I just have certain reasons why I think other people had town tells stronger than your participation. And I only have 5 to chose from in the first place.

[Jcozmo]

START OF DAY 2

Wolfy was murdered, he was a

Vanilla Townie

Day 2 starts now, deadline on the 13^thApril at 2200 BST ((expired on 2014-05-13 22:00:00))

Is there something wrong with this deadline? Besides it being in the past, we dont seriously get 2 weeks for D2 do we?

[Jcozmo]

First, as far as me missing something, I don't think that I did. I don't think any of that specifies a target for Wolfy particularly when it's not taken out of context and looking at his whole ISO. I also think Wolfy being Shinobi's "biggest defender" its a huge stretch based on that single line, which basically just repeats what I had stated a few posts earlier. No where that I can see does he say he's sure Shinobi is town. He doesnt even come close to saying that. What he's saying is actually close to the opposite by saying that Enomis is a scum driven wagon, and his strongest town reads arent on it.

He also stated and you agree that he thought a potential Mora and Mala scum team was likely, which I feel is pretty close to the

least

likely scum team. If they are, then more power to them for an Oscar worth D1 performance. Hats off. I'm not buying that though.

I do find myself agreeing that its a scum driven wagon on Enomis though.

1. Mala
2. Xayzeck
3. Shinobi
4. Mora

5. BBT

2 of these five ARE scum, and 4 of the five were on the Enomis wagon. We are at an unbelievable disadvantage right now due to the cop claim D1. Sorry to keep piling on, MM, its just the truth.

I find myself leaning towards Mala as town, which leads me down a path that leans me toward Shinobi being town.

The case against Mora is almost too easy at this point. The points people are bringing up are valid, but I'm still getting a weird feeling that lynch is a trap.

By process of elimination that leaves you BBT, and Xayzeck as maybe #1a scum team possibilty, with a completely legit possibility that its one of that team plus Mora as #1b and #1c.

Now I'm just going to go back, re-read and question why I lean town on Shinobi if Mala is town. Perhaps that isnt valid.

It's not taken out of context. They are his last few posts of who he is pointing his finger at, I'm not sure why you're dismissing that. His whole ISO doesn't matter, it's what happened towards the end of D1 when the activity starting picking up that really matters.

How is it a huge stretch? He stated he didn't think Shinobi was scum based on his defence of Mala. Did anybody else state this? Or was everybody else in doubt of Shinobi's actions? I think you will find it's the latter.

Mala's flip had the potential to provide a lot of information that would have cleared some people and put suspicion on others. We were deprived of that due to all the last minute panic voting.

The last part is interesting. So I go from 'towniest person' to 'part of your number one scum team' in not a very long time at all.

Can you elaborate on your Mala being town read please. I think you will find this more appropriate than looking into Shinobi's actions.

Why is the case on Mora too easy? And if it is, why does this mean he isn't scum? People are bringing up valid points, and then you just dismiss them in your next phrase.

Case on Mora is too easy...but he could be part of a 'b' or 'c' scum team. Do you find that contradictory?

The ONLY definitive statement he makes is that its a scum driven wagon (which I agree with) and that he sees Mala and Mora as a good possibility (which I strongly disagree with). You are making it out like what Wolfy was saying made him a target for the NK, which I don't think those quotes make a strong case for.

How is it a huge stretch? Jesus man, he says ONE LINE "this seems town to me" and that means he's "certain" Shinobi is town? Really? That's not a stretch? He later calls out his town reads and guess who is NOT on the list? Shinobi.

My statements about Mora aren't contradictory in the slightest, maybe you ought to read the post again - I say the points are valid, but it seems like a trap (just a feeling) then I don't even put his possibility of being part of the scum team at #2, its just 1b and 1c - why? because I didn't "dismiss" the points toward him at all.

Mala being town is just always been my read, and that got stronger as she was closest to lynch. I just never bought into that wagon. I think questioning my "read" on Shinobi is still the best option I have.

On you, its like I said, its more a process of elimination more than anything incriminating. We are all shooting in the dark here, essentially. I wouldn't say I scumread you to this point. I just have certain reasons why I think other people had town tells stronger than your participation. And I only have 5 to chose from in the first place.

Editing by double post. Was typing quickly because I was annoyed at the bad logic (IMO) that BBT was using for a couple things.

[Jcozmo]

The ONLY definitive statement he makes is that its a scum driven wagon (which I agree with) and that he sees Mala and Mora a good possibility (which I strongly disagree with). You are making it out like what was saying made him a target for the NK, which I don't think those quotes make a strong case for.

How is it a huge stretch? Jesus man, he says ONE LINE "this seems town to me" and that means he "certain" Shinobi is town? Really? Thats not a stretch? He later calls out his town reads and guess who is NOT on the list? Shinobi.

My statements about Mora arent contradictory in the slightest, maybe you ought to read the post again - I say the points are valid, but it seems like a trap (just a feeling) then I dont even put his possibility of being even #2, its just 1b and 1c - why? because I didnt "dismiss" the points toward him at all.

Mala being town is just always been my read, and that got stronger as she was closest to lynch. I just never bought into that wagon. I think questioning my "read" on Shinobi is still the best option I have.

On you, its like I said, its more a process of elimination more than anything incriminating. We are all shooting in the dark here, essentially. I wouldnt say I scumread you to this point. I just have certain reasons why I think other people had town tells stronger than your participation. And I only have 5 to chose from in the first place.

I concede on Wolfy being Shinobi's only/strongest town-reader. After ISO'ing a few people (didn't bother to get through everyone), both Xayzeck and Mala were town-reading Shinobi, Mora seemed unsure, and Enomis was leaning scum. I myself was doubting his actions as well and was unsure on my read.

1b and 1c is just another way of saying 2 and 3, right?

You can't just state 'Mala being town is just always been my read' after 30 pages of information and at the start of D2. That's not going to cut it. Why is she a town-read?

No not the same. We have so little to really go on, that I cannot put the scum team possibilities including Mora below the possibility that its Xay and you.

I'll try to go back and grab posts later tonight to more definitively point to why I lean town on Mala, especially since we have until 2017 to make a lynch decision.

[Jcozmo]

Can you explain your sudden change in reads of Shinobi please?

You also didn't answer my question regarding Mora; why do you feel he is an easy case? And if he is an easy case, why does that make him less likely to be scum?

I dont have a sudden change for how I feel about Shinobi. I feel like play has been scummy, the only thing that's stopping me from voting for him was his defense of Mala which does not seem like a good scum move. If someone is able to explain that, he moves way up on my list.

For Mora, I just feel like he walked into a glass door while scum hunting. I dont think his actual play is scummy but the way D1 ended it just was easy to put him into the light in that way.

And anyways I just went through BBT's ISO and that has me thinking more about my town reads again.

[Jcozmo]

For Mora, I just feel like he walked into a glass door while scum hunting. I dont think his actual play is scummy but the way D1 ended it just was easy to put him into the light in that way.

You are the only person who has made statements like this one. There's nothing evident in the thread so far, other than my say so (read: shinobi pedastal'ing me), that actually shows that I've been setup. I'm finding it very odd that you are coming to my defense, considering that I don't even personally feel that I've put up enough of a defense to clear myself in the least (as is evident from the sheer number of people who've expressed doubt in what I've said).

I do wish people would comment on my case on Shinobi, but unfortunately so far, it's looking similar to when I was expressing doubt against Xayzeck in the early game. Essentially ignored.

Actually Shinobi started setting this up in twillight, and then its essentially the first thing you said when the thread opened.

[Jcozmo]

I dont have a sudden change for how I feel about Shinobi. I feel like play has been scummy, the only thing that's stopping me from voting for him was his defense of Mala which does not seem like a good scum move. If someone is able to explain that, he moves way up on my list.

For Mora, I just feel like he walked into a glass door while scum hunting. I dont think his actual play is scummy but the way D1 ended it just was easy to put him into the light in that way.

And anyways I just went through BBT's ISO and that has me thinking more about my town reads again.

Your read changed on Shinobi with very little new information being presented. You commented on his 'scummy play' AFTER the defence of Mala at the start of D2.

For Day 2, No ones play makes less sense as town than Shinobi's, who was high on my list of scum-possibles well before he went off the deep end. He was "so certain" Eno was scum for basically no valid reasons whatsoever, then after it becomes apparent that isnt the case, he starts lobbing grenades for Day 2 lynch candidates. He can go ahead and attempt to explain in a little more detail how I'm "scumreading like a motherfucker", that should contain some wonderfully thought out reasoning and logic, much like his long-winded reads on Wolfy and Eno.

What I see is he wanted Wolfy lynched because he had a 500-word open and shut case that he IMMEDIATELY abandoned when called out for it, then jumped on and off various wagons of town members until Lynch day.

So I'm inclined to vote Shinobi.

At the same time scums choice to NK Wolfy, not the claimed cop or anyone else, needs to be discussed. IMO a Wolfy lynch points directly at Shinobi, so that seems like a pretty stupid freaking NK if I'm Shinobi.

This was your post on Shinobi at the start of D2...so you can't use his defence of Mala as your reason for you change of read from 'high on your scum-possibles' to 'leaning town'. Explain how and why your read has changed please.

You don't think Mora's end of D1 play was scummy? Even though he admitted himself that looking from the outside in his play would look scummy?

I'm being scummy as shit and no one cares to vote for me. Makes no sense.

You're trying to play scummy?

Trying, no. I would, however, categorize the past two pages, with the voteswitch, sudden unvote, and sudden revote as pretty damn scummy, seen from an outside view.

I'll get back to this but its circular logic. I think he's scummy, I want to vote for him, but I havent gotten past the Mala defense to do that. I also ready into your ISO instead of his like I intended, maybe I'll feel sure one way or the other after I re-read Mala's near-lynch and the lead up to it.

[Jcozmo]

I said before, my leaning town for him was based on leaning town for Mala, not on how I felt about his play.

[Jcozmo]

I said before, my leaning town for him was based on leaning town for Mala, not on how I felt about his play.

And you're still yet to provide the reasons for your town Mala read, and thus your Shinobi town read.

Your read changed, there is no denying that.

2 of these five ARE scum, and 4 of the five were on the Enomis wagon. We are at an unbelievable disadvantage right now due to the cop claim D1. Sorry to keep piling on, MM, its just the truth.

I find myself leaning towards Mala as town, which leads me down a path that leans me toward Shinobi being town.

The case against Mora is almost too easy at this point. The points people are bringing up are valid, but I'm still getting a weird feeling that lynch is a trap.

By process of elimination that leaves you BBT, and Xayzeck as maybe #1a scum team possibilty, with a completely legit possibility that its one of that team plus Mora as #1b and #1c.

Now I'm just going to go back, re-read and question why I lean town on Shinobi if Mala is town. Perhaps that isnt valid.

Here, you pretty much exonerate Shinobi. So again, he went from a scum-read to a leaning town read with virtually no new information presented. In your last sentence, it reads like you're going to re-read to try and

justify

why you think Shinobi

is

town, not

whether or not

he is town. Your mind seems made up.

Your off base conclusions consistently drive me up a freaking wall.

I'm not exonerating Shinobi, I'm stating where I am currently, and then I said I need to go re-read, and question those reads (Mala and Shinobi). That's literally what I said. Are you confused by, or not know, what the words re-read or question mean in that context? It means I need to re read and then challenge that current view I just posted there. My Mind is far from made up if I'm saying I'm going to go read and re-evaluate and I really dont know how you keep misinterpreting what I'm saying, because its not vague.

Did I say my mind was made up? No. Did I vote? No? Well then I would say my mind is pretty far from made up.

[Jcozmo]

Is your read on me based primarily on what others have said?

Yeah, more or less. Driving tons of people to L-1 is good, but it feels like you were just going around looking for claims almost, and hiding that under a town agenda. This, and everything else everyone has said, doesn't sit well with me.

So wait, let me get this straight - You now feel that I am the scummiest person left alive at this point?.

No? I don't know how you got to this conclusion, just that you're not exactly townier than Mora at the moment.

I also don't understand why you think the Mora lynch is a trap? What do you mean exactly by it's a trap?

And Mala, if you don't pick up the play we're going to have a big problem, especially if you make it to LyLo

Sorry way behind, so I'm just responding in order.

I got that because I thought you said you'd rather vote for Mora than anyone, except maybe Jcoz, which I guess I misinterpreted.

[Jcozmo]

Ok, after the first response I see BBT's last post, so I'm going to read everything posted in the last 30 hours to see what happened before posting again.

[Jcozmo]

Ok, so what specifically is the "cop comment" people keep referring to?

[Jcozmo]

Alright, this forced me to ISO you right here and there. I don't remember you ever calling me town. I remember you making statements that you don't see the case on me or you saw the case on me as weak. You never really made a definitive read on me. You didn't townread me nor did you really scumread me. You kept me what presumably looks like a null through out this discussion.

VOTE: Jco

I don't know why, but something about the above statements ++ teh cop comment irks me as really odd and scummy. I actually had a townread on you Day 1, but I can't really remember why now, but this kinda just crushed it.

I'm also leaning town on Mora and to a lesser extent BBT.

Ok, I'm brand spanking new to this game, but this just seems incredibly weak for a D2 vote. You've expressed no scummy opinions of me that I know of and you take that post and a cop comment and turn it into a D2 Vote? Interesting.

Its sort of semantics as far as you questioning my "town read" on you. Null to null-town, to town, that has been the movement over the course of the game. If you look at my ISO, there is nothing contradictory to that. In that post you are referring to, I am beginning to get irritated by BBT, so its a little strong, but thats about it.

[Jcozmo]

A) Haven't you been saying I've been pushing for a no-lynch, despite my statement that I was going to force a lynch on my townread if I absolutely had to?
B) I wasn't talking about Jcozmo's confusion regarding the Mala wagon. I was talking about Jcozmo's confusion. He makes posts that are just "man, I can't keep up with this. I'm so confused." And he just ignores the two wagons forming without a care in the world or even some sort of post regarding his level of interest in concern to the lynch candidates. It makes me think he's trying to blend in and get people to ignore him rather that trying to figure out who's scum and who isn't.

I made 2 posts within 15 min (591 and 596) about you halting the Mala wagon, thats what you are referring to here. I didnt say I couldn't keep up with this, what I was saying in #591 was "WTF, Mala's about to be lynched, then Shinobi makes a stand that makes no actual sense (hold on guys she just town read, I'll explain later - read:never) and now there some derpy Enomis wagon happening" I didnt ignore the two wagons at all, I said I was trying to understand wagon on Enomis (which was an idiotic wagon IMO that was weaker than the flimsy case on Mala) and then I had plans Friday night and on Saturday. Sue me. I got home with 5-6 hours left on the clock, but Wolfy decided to hammer so I just shook my head and went to sleep, so I wasnt a part of the twilight discussion because the thread was locked by Sunday.

[Jcozmo]

So I see that Jcozmo, you are the only player (discounting the claimed cop) who didn't "pick a side" on Day 1 between Malakittens and Enomis, including the two dead people. Your voting pattern has essentially been:

- an RVS vote on Wolfy that you kept on for 418 posts without discussing him, even when he got put to L-2.
- the "low-hanging fruit" vote on Xayzeck, which was part of the whole "you say words that don't mean things" post #463

I've been characterized as sidelining, but that there is true sidelining. We were risking a no-lynch. You were making comments like "I wish somebody would put you at L-1" on Enomis's wagon. Why didn't you vote?

I didn't make or hold the RVS vote, so whatever you want to read into that, be my guess.

I have no idea why anyone would ever accuse you of sidelining, nothing could be further from the truth. As for me, I didn't like the Mala case, and I thought the Enomis one was worse, but both of the wagons got a lot of action going in the game, so there was that, I was enjoying the action that resulted from people prodding Enomis (and it was beer-thirty at the time) so I made the joke comment about putting him at L-1.

What are you supposed to do when both wagons on D1 are bad? I'm sure I would have participated more in the discussion if those next two days were wed and thursday, but they were Friday and Sat, and it just happened to unfold the way it did.

[Jcozmo]

I'm not sure that both scum were on the wagon because of my short interaction with Jcozmo. He massively over-reacted to what I thought was quite tame questioning. Maybe he has a short temper, I don't know, but it seemed like a scummy reaction to me.

It was over-reaction, I will admit that. What I was annoyed with was first you make an outright incorrect statement about Wolfy, and that takes up more of my time than the point is worth, then I made a couple statements that you misinterpret for absolutely no reason - it was akin to stating "So, I think that 2+2=4" and someone responding - "So, I gather from what you are saying that you think 2+2=5"

It was pretty irritating to spend a significant chunk of time responding several instances of blatant misinterpretation between the wolfy thing and dissecting my posts.

[Jcozmo]

What are you supposed to do when both wagons on D1 are bad?

The answer isn't to sit on the sideline and 'enjoy the action that resulted'.

Well it is what it is, I explained that I had IRL plans otherwise I would not have been MIA.

[Jcozmo]

What are you supposed to do when both wagons on D1 are bad?

The answer isn't to sit on the sideline and 'enjoy the action that resulted'.

Also, I just re-read this. The action I was referring to was during the time I was active Friday, not the part where I was MIA.

[Jcozmo]

Ok, so what specifically is the "cop comment" people keep referring to?

This.

Literally made me laugh out loud.

I can't believe I actually have to explain that post. Firstly, I was half-inclined to think that MM didnt even make a move during the night, because it went all the way to deadline and he'd made only a handful of total posts and been prodded twice already. Second, I was bored stiff during the long night (I must have checked 25 times during the night waiting for the thread to open again) and I was just making a cheeky comment towards MM about getting back and saying something about the night.

[Jcozmo]

I await your cases on Mala and Shinobi, Jcozmo.

This is the only question in that post that is valid, I have addressed all your other bullshit Wednesday, to my utter annoyance.

I may have this by today, maybe tomorrow. Depends how today goes work-wise. But I will have that at some point, not for you, but to come to an initial conclusion about my own D2 vote.