Newbie 1509: The Devil's Run (Game Over)

[shaddowez]

Hey, I'm here, no reason to assume I'm guilty yet. I personally dislike immediate accusations, because a random lynch on day one helps the villains more than the heroes. That being said, not many people have spoken yet, where is everyone else?

[shaddowez]

Hey, I'm here, no reason to assume I'm guilty yet. I personally dislike immediate accusations, because a random lynch on day one helps the villains more than the heroes. That being said, not many people have spoken yet, where is everyone else?

This is a very defensive post. Why do you feel the need to state you aren't guilty when no-ones accusing you of anything?

Alina voted for my in Post #6, that's why I'm defending myself.

[shaddowez]

1. How many games of Mafia have you played (specifically on Mafiascum.net) in your lifetime? Somewhere around 6-8, but none of them on this site.

2. What's most appealing about these games to you? Working together as a group, and trying to decipher people's motives

3. What is your personality like usually? Somewhat reserved, but it really depends on the situation.

[shaddowez]

RVS isn't really necessary to defend against -- it's all just to get the conversation started. How many games of Mafia have you read/participated in, Shadow?

I've played about a half dozen games, but none of them on here, and haven't really used RVS in any of the games I've played. If anything, we usually start with FOS to get people talking

[shaddowez]

RVS isn't really necessary to defend against -- it's all just to get the conversation started. How many games of Mafia have you read/participated in, Shadow?

I've played about a half dozen games, but none of them on here, and haven't really used RVS in any of the games I've played. If anything, we usually start with FOS to get people talking

In advance: Sorry for the double post! I don't know if that's horribly frowned on here or not, but still, sorry.

And okay, that makes sense. I don't see too much harm in using votes early on, since FOS is more of just a vague threat that the person being voted on knows it means nothing, and actual votes on people can get them to react, I guess, in a more pressured way, as Formerfish said earlier. Making sure people are pressured/keeping conversation going, in my opinion, is the most important thing, because if we all just descend into lurkerdom...well...the scum laugh at us and then they win. Which isn't really what any of us should want.

That's fair, and I completely agree. I probably should have read a couple more games on here before jumping in, but at least I understand the RVS now.

[shaddowez]

Hey, I'm here, no reason to assume I'm guilty yet. I personally dislike immediate accusations, because a random lynch on day one helps the villains more than the heroes. That being said, not many people have spoken yet, where is everyone else?

Shaddowez, why does a random lynch on day 1 help scum more than town?

Town (usually) outnumbers scum, so based on pure probability it is more likely that a townsperson will be lynched than scum via random lynching. That opens up the night to a free kill (assuming no roleblockers/doctor/etc), dropping the town by two in one day. It's not a guarantee, but mathematically it favors scum

[shaddowez]

@FormerFish:

Avatar added, thanks for the suggestion. As for where I've played before, we have a form for a LARP that I play at. One of the people I play with mods Mafia games on the forums fairly regularly, with some other people trying their hands at modding once in a while.

Later in the games I care less about the first vote, it was just surprising having votes thrown about so early. I've read up on the RVS a bit now, and understand it more.

[shaddowez]

Sorry for not being very talkative today, having a toddler makes it tough to post sometimes.

To clarify some of what I've said, I'm not against lynching on day one, especially with the amount of time provided (again, something much different than the other site I play on). Mathematically a mislynch favors scum, but a no lynch doesn't help the town either.

Also, I've noticed a number of people haven't answered the questions yet. Has everyone at least made their presence known?

[shaddowez]

Right, meant to exclude Andrewseagull but forgot to mention it in my post

[shaddowez]

Formerfish

- it's a toss up the way I see it. Town should have nothing to fear by answering, but scum wouldn't want to stand out by not. I almost think it's more that scum would be a "follow the leader" mentality... If most people are posting, post. Otherwise, don't make your words stand out and bring attention to yourself

[shaddowez]

So I noticed things have died down quite a bit - are weekends usually quiet?

[shaddowez]

@blueheaven

- It's my nature to be defensive, especially when I didn't do anything wrong. Not being used to how everything worked here, I reacted similarly to how I do in the other site I've played on. As for why I didn't ask about the other votes, between the posting on here, looking at some prior games, and the fact that a bunch of clarifying posts got made within a half hour of me posting, I felt I understood the reasoning.

@Andrewseagull

- Especially coming from a game where the day phases were much shorter than here, why would you ask about a No Lynch for Day 1?

[shaddowez]

Hey all, just as a heads up I will most likely only be posting at night this week. My wife and I are babysitting an 5-month old for a friend, so the little time I could usually sneak in when my little one is napping is pretty much gone.

Alina eloquently put into words the thought process I had going on today, but I'll add a couple of my own notes as well.

In Post #57 Neil jumped onto the bandwagon of voting for Formerfish putting him at L-2, without even being able to strongly justify his own vote:

With that said, while I can't say that all of Formerfish's postings have been scum-motivated, as of right now, this is where I find most comfortable for my vote to be placed.

Formerfish then hits the nail on the head with

And of all the things that could be scummy the thing you are going to latch on to is a jokey reach out to someone....

One comment was made, and the vote wasn't based on the interaction that happened here. The vote was made on the fact that Formerfish may be trying to manipulate the rest of us with information from another game that we don't have all the info for, and without the rest of the interaction that occurred we'd know pretty much nothing about.

Additionally, outside of his intro/RQS post, and the post where he votes for Formerfish, Neil has had almost no interaction with anyone, and in 85 posts has made 4.

Vote: Neil

. Unless I miscounted, this puts him at

L-2

[shaddowez]

@Babi

- When asked about not voting for Neil, you said even though you had previously said you found Neil scummy..

I find that voting scum who is not posting is better than voting scum who is posting

Jopa was who you voted for, who has been replaced by blueheaven and has been active. Neil has been quiet, and even though you have posted since blueheaven, you haven't changed your vote. Why is that?

[shaddowez]

I had Alina as a pretty strong townread, but her latest actions have me skeptical. It serves the town to not quickhammer somebody, so that they can claim, or at the very least give us some more time to gather information about the lynchee and anyone else that posts. There are only two scenarios that I can think of where somebody would quickhammer, and neither are likely right now:

• There is a town cop who has not yet voted, knows the lynchee to be guilty, and wants to make sure the lynch happens before someone backs out.
  
• The person who quickhammers is scum and knows the lynchee is town, and wants to make sure the lynch happens before there's a chance to prove themselves or someone backs out

The first is unlikely on Day 1, especially since there was not a night phase that I'm aware of. The second would be dumb, because they'd almost be auto-lynch the next day if they quickhammer someone that flips town, unless that have a darn good reason for what they did.

If Alina is scum, there are two reasons she could have backed out. Granted, neither are strong arguments, but they exist.

The first is that Alina and Neil are scum buddies, and she didn't expect the wagon to grow so quickly. With her dropping out, it would take two out of the remaining four people to vote Neil to make a lynch, and two of them already have votes on other people. While still possible in the length of time we have, it also gives more time for people currently voting for Neil to switch their vote.

The second option is that Neil is actually town, and Alina is scum. Dropping out would allow Alina to hammer after we get one more vote (which is unlikely as per my earlier explanation), or to feign innocence with the "I ended up not voting for him" excuse.

As I said, neither argument is incredibly strong right now, but I will be re-examining Alina's posts and keeping an eye going forward. I will be even more suspicious if Neil does end up lynched and flips town, regardless of whether or not Alina is one of the votes.

[shaddowez]

@Alina

- You had a detailed post about Neil's activities and were second to vote for him, and had to assume at some point votes would pile on. It just seemed odd to me that you wouldn't FOS him initially to keep the vote count lower by one, if that was your intention.

@Clusk

-

Most of these possibilities put forward don't mention the most obvious one - and the actual reason given by Alina - to avoid an accidental hammering.

Actually, none of them mention that. My post was to point out what I found odd about her activity and explain my reasoning, not to repeat what she said.

which could be disastrous because a) it may mean the lynching of a PR due to the fact they didn't have a chance to claim and b) means we lynched 8 days before the deadline, meaning we missed out on lots of time to gather more information on Neil or other members to make sure we don't make a mislynch.

This, on the other hand, I do explicitly state in my second sentence.

You do seem very upset that Neil was taken off L-1, why is this?

Apparently questioning somebody's motives makes me very upset about something? If I just blindly went along with everything everyone did, I wouldn't be able to try and form arguments for (or technically against) scum, would I?

When you consider the above combined with this post:

@Babi

- When asked about not voting for Neil, you said even though you had previously said you found Neil scummy..

I find that voting scum who is not posting is better than voting scum who is posting

Jopa was who you voted for, who has been replaced by blueheaven and has been active. Neil has been quiet, and even though you have posted since blueheaven, you haven't changed your vote. Why is that?

Where you seem intent on pressuring and manipulating Babisoup into changing his vote to Neil, and trying to move the wagon along as fast as possible, it shows you in a very scummy way.

Similar to the previous comment - apparently questioning someone's action, or inaction, is now pressuring and manipulating.

3) I'm normally quite quizzical and like to probe people for their motivations behind their votes/why they say stuff.

Shaddowez - Scumread - no scumhunting to be seen so far and is too busy with being very defensive in most of his posts.

Amusing that your answer to the RQS says you like to probe people for their motivations, yet that's what you're using as an attack against me. You also got an early scumread on me for being too defensive, and now that I'm being proactive you're saying I'm scummy. Trying to build baseless case against me?

@blueheaven

- In regards to anyone putting the vote at L-1, I'm not particularly against it. Barring any accidents, I think a quick hammer gives away too much information and is unlikely to happen this early in the game. It has to happen at some point, or there would never be a lynch. In this particular scenario, there is plenty of time, so it could be a move to try and force a mislynch early. I honestly don't have a good read on Babisoup yet...he isn't doing much and is saying very little in most of his posts, but nothing is screaming out scum to me either. He did call out Neil earlier, so while there's not much detail in why he changed his vote now, there is at least a basis to the vote.

As for your second question, I could see scum wanting to push the wagon without being the final vote so if it is a mislynch, they're not the "one to blame", so to speak. I could also see them doing it to try and force a PR claim, that way even if a lynch doesn't happen they have a night target. I don't think town would really have a motive behind doing it unless they were a PR, other than just believing the arguments and trying to make sure a lynch happened before the deadline.

[shaddowez]

@mod

- can we get a prod on Andrewseagull please? It's been over 48 hours since his last post. Thanks!

[shaddowez]

Oops, what timing! No problem

[shaddowez]

BabiSoup, Andrewseagull, blueheaven

- Could you each please provide some more details on why you're not voting, or why you voted for who you did?

[shaddowez]

BabiSoup, Andrewseagull, blueheaven

- Could you each please provide some more details on why you're not voting, or why you voted for who you did?

What can you infer from Neil's (IC)play here http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=16397?

I'm not sure I understand the context of your question - are you telling me you're using the meta from that game as the basis for your vote, or are you asking me to compare the two without actually answering my question?

[shaddowez]

Hey everyone.... I'm going to be away for the weekend so probably won't be posting until Sunday night. It'll be over 48 hours from now, so wanted to give a heads up that I'm not disappearing

[shaddowez]

Huntress, do you still see this as my scum game? Additional question, have you ever seen my scum game?

I don't recall ever reading a game where you were scum and I haven't felt the need to go look for any yet.

@Huntress

- You never answered

Formerfish

's question about this being his scum game. Now that Neil flipped town, what do you think of Fish?

@blueheaven

- You were initially very suspicious of

BabiSoup

, let it die off a little, and then in an exchange between us asked what I thought about Babi putting Neil at L-1. Similar to my question to Huntress, now that Neil flipped town what do you think of Babi?

[shaddowez]

I'm currently of the opinion that

Andrew

is mafia

and

clueless. His answers from the RQS (and one other post after the lynch) are that he has only ever played one game before, so I'm guessing that he saw the opportunity to off a townie and went for it. I'd like to hear more from people, especially him, before casting a vote though.

[shaddowez]

Just to make sure I don't get "prodded" I'm still here, will answer all questions tomorrow morning when I get back from college.

It's now "tomorrow evening" and we still haven't heard from you. Mind giving us some insight?

VOTE: Shaddowez

Reasons?

I'm interested as well. You vaguely answered my question about why you thought Neil was scum by pointing to another game of his, then immediately vote for me with no explanation.

[shaddowez]

I've been rereading through things and trying to wait for answers to the questions I've posted recently. I'm too tired right now to give a good analysis, but will try to do so tomorrow night.

[shaddowez]

Alina

- Good townread. Got a little concerned with her decision to take the pressure off Neil, but I understand why now. Everything else has been very upfront, or trying to decipher what people are thinking.

blueheaven

- Has been engaging different people, and trying to get answers. Is also fairly thorough with answering questions or giving reasons and explanations.

Clusk

- Not quite sure what to think. He's been fairly reactive instead of proactive, but nothing that specifically reads as scummy.

Huntress

- She seems to have it out for specific people, namely blueheaven and Formerfish. While I've got some issues with Fish's play, her arguments against blueheaven seem weak at best. She also seems to read/write/remember what is convenient for her current post.

Formerfish

- Was very involved in the beginning, and has been much quieter as of late. Neil's play did seem very scummy, but looking back Fish seemed to be focusing almost entirely on Neil. He would respond to other people that pointed things directly at him, but any of his proactive posts were purely directed at Neil (until after the lynch at least).

I have seen an ICscum and the newbtown blindly followed him right to endgame where we lost

I'm not sure if this qualifies as AtF or not, but something about it seems off.

I've never been scum in a newbie game before, do they get day talk in their scum chats?

Also this. As an SE, Fish should have at least read the Role PM's which specifically say the mafia can talk at night. Could be nothing, but it caught my attention.

BabiSoup

- Has been very vague with most of his answers, and doesn't seem to be doing very much scumhunting. Progressively getting a more and more scum vibe from him.

Andrewseagull

- Not sure there's much I need to say. Hammered Neil, did a role claim for no good reason, has been absent except to say he's not absent. Either an extremely scatterbrained person that wants to play but shouldn't be, or scum that doesn't know how to play scum and is trying to hide.

[shaddowez]

ALSO: I have a plan for the night if we end up lynching scum today since we have a claimed Jailkeeper...but it wouldn't really be effective if there's two scum at night. Basically, we plan ahead before we go through with the lynch, IN THE CASE that the person we're lynching flips scum, we set a target for Babi to jail. That way, there's only one scum, and if he jails that person, and someone(probably Babi since I don't think there can be a doctor w/a Jailkeeper) dies, that we way have a confirmed townie because the person jailed wouldn't be able to shoot. But if the person we're lynching flips town, of course just jail whoever you want...Anyone have any thoughts on this?

There IS the possibility of the scum no killing, but, if they did that we could just put it into an endless loop that never stops by no lynching, meaning they'd just be forfeiting the game.

The problem I have with this is if the person we choose to have Babi jail

isn't

scum, the scum has a guaranteed shot on anyone else (unless we have a 1-shot bulletproof). It's definitely not a terrible plan, though.

[shaddowez]

@mod

Could you fix my bold editing mess up please?

Done!

[shaddowez]

D'oh, got it now. On that note, I think I need to go to bed.

[shaddowez]

In post 191, Formerfish wrote:
I've never been scum in a newbie game before, do they get day talk in their scum chats?

Also this. As an SE, Fish should have at least read the Role PM's which specifically say the mafia can talk at night. Could be nothing, but it caught my attention.

YOU SCUM why you mention night talk when Formerfish mention day talk

I mentioned night talk because that's all the role talks about. Fish asked about day talk, which is

not

mentioned in the role, therefore it's not allowed (unless I have the rules wrong?).

@Alina

- Two questions: First, how will blueheaven's flip solidify your reads? As in, if he's scum you think I am and if he's town you'll think I'm not? Second, when I flip town, whether lynched today or tomorrow (since I'm assuming you're planning on lynching me one day or the other), who do you think scum will be?

[shaddowez]

The "when I flip town," game huh? Now you sound like Neil. :p

I didn't intend to copy him, but realized I did as soon as I posted and read it in the forum. Amusingly, I would like to remind you how that worked out for us.

As for my interactions with people, I'm pretty sure I've called out or tried to get the motives of everyone on here. The most parterning you could say I've done would be agreeing with blueheaven on Babi's putting Neil at L-1. I had missed what Babi called out about blueheaven being the one to do it after you had unvoted, but considering only one person pointed it out, the same could be said about anyone else not noticing it.

I think #63, where he said that scum should move with the town, if the town are talking, talk, if not, don't talk

This was specifically an answer to the question "Who would be more likely to not answer, town or scum?" Fish asked about RVS, not about play during the game.

In post 234, shaddowez wrote:scum that doesn't know how to play scum

How do you play scum?

This is my first game on here, so I can't really point you to my scum game. Generally, things like lurking and quickhammering (both of which Andrew was doing) are considered scummy, which is why I said he may not know how to scum. If you're asking me specifically, I'm usually very agressive when I'm scum, especially if I have nightkill immunity.

So, as a matter of trying to figure out who's scum. I would like to point out that for everyone that has done a reads list, there are a couple of people that have been consistently in the top half. My top two suspicions are

Huntress

and

Clusk

. I may have time later tonight, if not I'll go into more depth tomorrow night on why.

[shaddowez]

Huntress

While you're not exactly tunneling on blueheaven, you do seem to be paying more attention to him than a good portion of the town. You voted for him day 1 with no reasoning given outside of your one line.

So you're comfortable with pushing his lynch, but you want to give yourself a let-out if he proves to be town? Or are you just rolefishing with your request for a claim?

You do give more detail in later posts, but not at the time of the vote.

I find Neil's posts full of fluff and lack of scumhunting.

Why not vote him then?

Here you're asking Babi why he's not voting for Neil, and as Fish pointed out if you think I'm a better lynch target than blue, why aren't you voting for me?

As for voting for me, you don't even seem to pay attention to me until Babi mentions thinking I'm blue's partner, in the same post he claims. You then use this argument:

If the lack of a kill was caused by Blueheaven being jailed then it's probable he's a goon rather than a roleblocker, so Shaddowez might well be a better bet for toDay's lynch.

which is in direct opposition of the rules listed by Baezu:

In applicable situations, a Mafia Roleblocker has the option of submitting both roleblocks and kills, even when the Mafia Goon is still alive.

In applicable situations, a Mafia Roleblocker has the option of submitting both roleblocks and kills, even when the Mafia Goon is still alive.

As for my comments about your posts, there are two examples. The first is about the previous game with Fish, when Alina missed that you had inferred you were scum. You responded by saying you didn't think it mattered, then posted again to say that you had in fact inferred it. It's not a major thing, but it is a case of you not keeping your own facts in order.

The second is in regards to one of Fish's earlier posts directed at you. He asked you a two part question, to which you only answered one part. I failed at quoting the entire thing, but when I asked you about the part that you didn't answer, you responded by saying I quoted your answer, which was still only the one part.

[shaddowez]

Okay. I thought it over today and I think that because I was SO sure Neil was gonna flip scum, that when he didn't, it really damaged my confidence in my reads and so I became kind of okay with just kind of swapping them all over the place because I wasn't confident enough and I was afraid of being wrong again.

Out of curiosity - what's going to happen when you're wrong again?

[shaddowez]

Most of my concern with

Clusk

is what I addressed in post #117

Additionally, the only two people he's had scumreads on are myself and

Babi

. If Babi is town like he claims, that's

at least

a 50% townie that he's scumreading, assuming you still think I'm scum. His only vote on Day 1 was on me. He then proceeds to question Babi on his vote in Day 2:

VOTE: Shaddowez

Reasons?

There has been very little interaction between Clusk and

blueheaven

. Clusk's most recent post was

Blueheaven, it would be much better if you came on and defended yourself

The only other post Clusk even mentions blue is when he's giving Babi a hard time about claiming and voting for blue.

I posted about

Huntress

a short while ago because I had mentioned I would yesterday, but after going through ISOs and re-reads, I'm not getting the same sense I did yesterday. I want to hear more from blue before jumping on the bandwagon, but my current instinct is that blue and

Clusk

are scumbuddies.

[shaddowez]

Earlier on, you said you thought Andrew was your top scumread. Then Babi came out with his JK claim and you switched over to Huntress/Clusk. What did Andrew do that improved you?

It was less that he improved (since he hasn't really done much at all) and more that the others started sticking out more to me. When I was answering Babi's question about my comment on Andrew "not knowing how to scum" and doing the re-read, I'm leaning a bit more towards naievete than scum (though he's not off my radar).

Also, before it gets asked, my thinking blue may be scum is stemming from the whole L-1 deal Babi brought up. I had missed that during my initial re-read, but makes a lot of what I saw as null reads seem scummy in conjunction.

[shaddowez]

I didn't bring up any L-1 deal. Shaddowez, I thought you said Andrew was both clueless and mafia?

I must be going crazy - I swear that there were posts by both you and Alina about something that I can't find for the life of me. I just reread the entire thread twice, and can't find anything by anyone that reflects what I was thinking, so it's not like I was thinking of the wrong person. I'll be looking through again tomorrow just to be sure, but if it's not there I'll retract that entire part of my argument.

As for my thoughts on Andrew, my exact quote was

I'm currently of the opinion that Andrew is mafia and clueless

That was almost a week ago, and at the time I was of that opinion. Please see my posts since then for my thoughts since (especially since Alina already specifically asked me about me having him as a scum read).

[shaddowez]

Babi

- I just reread again to be completely positive what I thought was there wasn't, and I must have dreamt it (or somehow keep missing it). That being said, I'll explain what I thought happened. While Alina's vote was still in, you were the vote that put Neil at L-1. During one of my interactions with blue, he had asked what I thought about you putting him at L-1:

Regarding your analysis, what do you think about babisoup putting Neil on L-1? I personally don't like it. Its like inducing a quick hammer, but not wanting to be the one doing it. What reasons do you think a scum or town would do that?

After

Alina

unvoted to help prevent a quickhammer, blueheaven was the next to vote and put Neil back at L-1. The post I must have imagined had you pointing out that he was the one to do so after making his spiel about not liking it. I hadn't put that connection together at first, and when I finally did (after reading the post that doesn't exist), it made more of blue's other posts look scummy in conjunction.

That being explained, I wanted to hear more from blue before voting for him. However,

hayato

has done that quite well for me.

• He states he needs two days to read the thread, then votes three hours later. While most of us agree that what
  Andrew
  did seems scummy, to me it makes more sense to catch up on the entire game before voting
  
• After
  Formerfish
  suggests he address being jailed, he asks for someone to link him the relevant post,

  But only if there is a need for me to address those quickly.

• Unless I'm missing something, this quote has no relevance, and is just more of him not responding to how him being jailkept affected him.

  By read, I meant continue reading from whatever page I'm currently at.

• Here he responds again, saying he's stopped reading, and still provides no insight into the jailkeeping, except for the one line:

  Btw I've stopped reading hours ago.

  how does a townie normallly respond to being jailkept?

I'm now comfortable with VOTE: hayataoBL

[shaddowez]

Meant to put this in my prior post but hit submit instead of preview - this puts

hayatao

at

L-2

[shaddowez]

I'm willing to offer myself to be jailed for the night. The mafia could go with a no kill to get me lynched if you do, but since four of you already have me pegged as scum, I'm expecting to be lynched tomorrow anyway.

[shaddowez]

It makes sense in context, but the "do do that that" hurt my brain

[shaddowez]

I'm willing to offer myself to be jailed for the night. The mafia could go with a no kill to get me lynched if you do, but since four of you already have me pegged as scum, I'm expecting to be lynched tomorrow anyway.

Seriously do not like this post.

Any insight as to why? Alina, Clusk, Huntress, and Babi have all specifically said I'm in at least their top three scum, and at least one of them think I'm scumbuddies with blue/hayatao. Whether or not haya gets lynched and flips scum, if I'm not the one jailed and a kill happens, chances are I'm lynched. If haya flips scum, I am jailed and a kill happens, I become conftown.

[shaddowez]

I was actually just echoing was Alina said when she first brought up the idea:

There IS the possibility of the scum no killing, but, if they did that we could just put it into an endless loop that never stops by no lynching, meaning they'd just be forfeiting the game.

[shaddowez]

I see your point about telling scum what to do. I do disagree with you on the favorable outcome part, however. As

Alina

already stated, if they no kill we get another day of reads and a free lynch day. If they do kill, we have a conftown. While neither of these may be the

optimal

outcome, I'd say either of these are favorable.

[shaddowez]

Who is boon?

I really have no idea how to even respond to this....

[shaddowez]

I was able to glance through the new posts, but didn't get a chance to give a good read through and noticed there wasn't much activity today. I probably won't be on until tomorrow night, and don't want to risk a hammer happening until I get the chance to actually look at it.

UNVOTE: Boon

FOS: Boon

[shaddowez]

I finally read over everything, and while I'm not getting

as

strong a scum reading from Boon, something still feels off, and with the record of the slot, I feel comfortable enough to put my vote back on him.

At this point, if Boon flips scum I'm pretty sure he's bussing Clusk.

VOTE: Boon This brings it back to

L-1

again.

[shaddowez]

I intend to hammer sometime tomorrow morning if nobody has any objections.

I've been fluctuating between

Andrew

and

Clusk

being scum for a while, though I've definitely been leaning more heavily towards

Clusk

(I mentioned

Boon

bussing him in my vote in post #396).

Another reason why I'm also still suspicious of Shaddow even after him being jailkeeped (if Babisoup did as he said he would) was his willingness to be put in jail to prove his innocence- it almost reeks of a mafia roleblocker coming under pressure and wanting to put his name in the clear and be confirmed town.

This is a reasonable argument - I had actually thought of it already, but wasn't going to post it to give scum the idea. It's also WIFOM. I could present an argument against it, but that would just be the other side of the WIFOM.

[shaddowez]

I'm really hoping that I'm right, and

Andrew

is just really bad at this game.... Otherwise, it's one of the best/worst scum games I've ever seen.

VOTE: Clusk

[shaddowez]

I said I was going to do it this morning unless anyone objected... You and fish both posted without saying anything about holding off or I would have

[shaddowez]

And normally if there is discussion going on you don't hammer.

Hammering while people are talking is a huge scum tell. Cutting off discussion and rational thought is very bad for town.

That makes sense - I was fairly confident at that point, and wasn't sure when I'd be able to get back on (now is the first time I've had a chance to post), so I decided to go ahead and do it. I figured if anyone really didn't want me to, they would have said something.

Good game guys....

Huntress

, I had a feeling towards the end that you were BP. Not sure why since we hadn't caught the roleblocker yet so there was no proof, just a gut instinct.