Newbie 1513: Lingo Linguistics (Game Over)

[Thor665]

tl:dr - this entire commentary block is all about introducing myself as the IC, blathering about my duties, and offering a basic idea of some of the strategy of the RVS. If this interests you, please read on (especially if this is your first time playing here) if not, feel free to skip.

Spoiler: IC Intro

===========================================================================================

Greetings,

I am Thor665 and I am the Inexperienced Challenged (IC) player of this group. What this means is first and foremost - I am here to play this game with you in a way that will show you what it is like to play on Mafiascum.net. I am here to win and should be treated as such.

My goals and the rules governing my actions are covered in this handy article: Being a good IC
That article is part of our amazing MafiaWiki System. I *highly* recommend this system as a good way to get your feet wet and to find out what a lot of the common abbreviations mean. There is a lot of play strategy discussed in there too. A lot of players consider that advice almost all outdated now. I don't recommend trying to run verbatim with anything there, but a lot of the basic advice is very good to at least be aware of as it can help you avoid blatant pitfalls as you become familiar with the game play here.

Now, as an IC I am here as a resource for you to ask questions of concerning game theory. I WILL NOT lie about game theory answers and will answer them to the best of my ability. I will also offer you the following quick pieces of advice;

1. Don't self vote. (there are really no points during a Newbie setup where this is a good idea, please avoid it however logical you may think it is)
2. This site frowns on lying if you are a vanilla town role. I strongly advise against lying if you have this role as usually it will only hurt town in the end.
3. It's a game - have fun.

We are now starting what is known as the RVS (random voting stage). We are in a low information period because scum already know who they are, and even have a rough idea of what power roles may or may not be in the game. It is now town's job to root them out. Because the start of the game leaves us with no information to start with generally the way to start is to begin voting and questioning other people to see if you can catch them doing something scummy (scummy actions being acts that a scum player is more likely to do then a town player).

Vote: Pirate Mollie

I always try to policy lynch her before BBmolla, though I suspect my gears will grind plenty with both of them here.
And now that that's out of the way.

Unvote: Pirate Mollie
Vote: Angry Frog

I also like storks.
Also, town read on Vett, minor but there.

@Mod - grammar issue, this game is 'run' not this game is 'ran' All of you clearly should have spotted that because you're supposed to look at a Mod's rules...and also be grammar OCD.

[Thor665]

Your complaint with me is that I don't support your poor play enough. Get used to disappointment.

I will try this game but I can't promise I won't replace out. I will replace out before I let it get toxic especially since it is a newbie.

I promise not to get in a "tard fight" however charming that phrase is, as long as you promise not to claim you know my meta.

Why is this?

I see no advantage to explaining that read at this stage, especially since no one is calling him scummy.

@Mod - grammar issue, this game is 'run' not this game is 'ran' All of you clearly should have spotted that because you're supposed to look at a Mod's rules...and also be grammar OCD.

I laughed, but that's there by design~

I weep.


The timezone discussion is way beyond useless.
I am indifferent to the communication discussion, and give Mollie very slight town points for trying to sort it.
I'm hoping by the next time I come through BBMolla starts playing the game.

I'd like to see more votes on Angry Frog. He remains scum.
Mollie, sheep me. You probably owe me that for misreading me the last two or three times we played. Also, if you give me a cutsey nickname you probably owe me a sheep too for that.

[Thor665]

If there was a reaction test there I'd be fascinated to hear ti explained - I highly doubt there was one.

No posts = no town read also.

[Thor665]

bert voted you guys in playing cards in rvs and I yelled at him for since I knew that all it would accomplish is to make you mindlessly antagonistic towards me and mention my name in nearly

every single post

oh look that is exactly what you did.

I barely posted in that game.
I will agree that Bert can't read me for a hill of beans either.

after careful inspection I have frog person as null but I probs do owe you a sheep vote for the awsum nickname that I always use especially since ap calls you that now.

He does? Meh, it's still better than Poppa Smurf.

Oh gawds...Mollie, please, for the love of all that is holy, don't go down your "misrepresentation" pipeline of doom. I refuse to read or pay attention to that gak. People disagreeing with you, or having their own theories about why you did what you did - is not a misrep.

@Drew - Annem is certainly buddying me - but he's picking a fight with Mollie. How does that work into your theory?

Angry Frog/Mollie, gg 2ez

Okay, well, I'll just ignore the pairing...because, whatever. I don't want that conversation.
But, why vote Mollie over Frog? I'm actively trying to create the Frog wagon, and apparently Mollie is bussing her buddy, and then there's another vote on him, so...?

[Thor665]

It's things like this that make me start commenting on your play, and then cause you to freak out and turtle omgus.

I'm going to go with "okay...but I really rather disagree with the choice at this juncture."

[Thor665]

The timezone stuff is terrible.

I am sorry, would you care to explain how looking up what timezone the gm is in to see how long it takes before the gm will get to a flip can

possibly

come from a town mindset?

What's the scum mindset?

I'll actually agree that I can't think of the town one, but I can't think of the scum one either. I can't even imagine using it as part of my strategy regardless. Oh-ho! Tremble town, though I already know the alignment of the flipped player - I now also know when the mod is likely to announce as such and close the thread! Fear me! (?)

[Thor665]

@Thor: Why do you think Vett is town, despite the fact that he has ABSOLUTELY NO POSTS AT ALL?

You do know that alignment is purely RNG, right?

Yes, alignment is RNG.
He does, as you corrected yourself to noting, have one vote.
I have, as you have noted, expressed a town read on him and have refused to expand on it.

What is your issue here, exactly? Do you think Vett is scum, in which case my defense of him is bad and needs to be explained?
Because if not...I don't see the issue in thinking I am calling someone town too easily if you're not planning to call them scum.

Walk me through this issue, and if it makes sense to me I'll happily explain my town read.

@Drew - read on Stabs.

[Thor665]

@Stabs - also, you know who has zero posts? The person I'm calling scum. Why no issue with that one?

[Thor665]

BTW, is

I also like storks.

personal or is it game-related?

If it is a town read on storks, I would like you to explain it.

Why, what's your read on Storks?
I honestly don't have one, but you seem really worried that I'm just glossing over things and not really being involved with the game. SO you should probably explain your read on Sotrks so I can better understand what a person paying attention to the game would look like.








(Yeah, I'm a stinker )

[Thor665]

Oddly enough, I recalled a player named 'Storks' being in Drew-Sta's spot in the player list and thought people were referring to Storks when they say 'Drew-Sta', which I read as 'Rk-Sto'.

Do you have a dyslexia issue I should know about when assessing posts you're making? I'm numerically dyslexic - I tend to warn people about that if I'm doing figures for them. I also tend to double check stuff.

I'm hypothesizing now. I will stop.

I don't mind how crazy the journey is. Really, the point I was getting at is that you applied 'flailing' as a tell to Anenian. I wanted to see if you'd apply it to Stabs also. You didn't. Do you not see any similarity in their "flails" (I, personally, see both as flailing - and am curious why you either don't, or you don't see fit to mention that one is since you appear to consider it a scumtell)

Clarify?

Thor really want to 'policy' lynch both SEs (with possibly made-up reasons from his previous experiences with them), presumably not knowing that two policy lynches (also known as wasted lynches since their role

revelation

does not really help the town) could spell doom for the town.

Um...first off, policy lynches *do* provide information from a flip. All lynches provide information from a flip.
Second off, why are you presuming both of them will flip town, since policy lynch or no a scum flip is an absolute advantage of a revelation - do you know something I do not?

[Thor665]

I'm not saying to start calling me scum, but the basis of your read on me and AngryFrog doesn't seem to have much behind the curtain.

I've only been asked about the curtain by one player about one of these reads. Your read seems quite shallow if your issue is lack of examination and you, yourself, are lacking in examination of your own reads. No?

Am I flailing?

I think so, yes.

If all these written above count as flailing, I'll re-read some Mafia-related pages because it's possible that I don't understand what flailing means.

Flailing isn't about what you are accused of nor about how true it is or isn't. Flailing is about how you respond to it. Someone can do something pro town, have it called scummy, and accurately show it was not scummy - and still be flailing.

[Thor665]

#1: If, say, someone is suspected to be aligned with the Mafia and they flip town, their posts could be reread/reconsidered in order to make more sense of things. However, if the player is lynched for being a VI, very little information can be deduced from his posts even after his death since, well, he is a VI and thus most of his posts are complete gibberish/confusing/makes no sense either way. Even if he flips scum, he is still a VI and may be throwing votes randomly instead of actually buddying/bussing. Of course, there are exceptions...but I can't think of any.
#2: Scum tend to be active lurkers, not village idiots.

#1 - Okay, let's work this angle a bit. Let's say you, Anenien, Mollie, BBMolla, and Vettrock all voted me, and all made cases against me, and I flipped scum - what information do we gain?
Let's then say all of those same players get together and lynch Angry Frog right now and he flips scum, what of the above information would we *not* gain?

#2 - I really disagree with this. A village idiot is a player who doesn't know (or intentionally presents as if he doesn't know) how to look town. When that player is scum he...doesn't look town, when he is town he doesn't look town. It's a core playstyle tell, and that's why you lynch them if you can't read them. Also, I didn't call either of them village idiots (I never really call anyone that) Nor does that really answer why you presumed neither would be scum. Is your stance that *only* active lurkers will be scum, and that's why neither of them will be, and that's why you said what you said?

[1]I'm not voting right now.
[2]Obviously, I have no reads on AngryFrog's forthcoming replacement, I have almost no reads on 2 players and I find

three

players scummy. It's clear that my logic is flawed, especially since I

do

have an idea on a scum pair but that's based mostly on my intuition (and I can underpin my intuition with a single sentence and that's not much). Other possible pairs are either illogical or assume an utterly bad gameplay from at least one player.

[3]Mollie and Egyptian are V/LA and we don't know anything about AngryFrog's replacement. This three players may have greatly modify my readings later.

1. So? That actually bothers me more than you having your vote in play, especially since you say you have three scum reads.

2. Why does Angry Frog being replaced change the purpose of your vote on him? His role PM is still the same even if someone else is playing the slot.

3. So all your reads are on hold until you can get a read on the three of them? I'd say that Mollie has provided more input than most players here, why are you unable to sort here with what you have?

[Thor665]

With regard to AngryFrog vs. You flipping scum: AngryFrog we have nothing. If we were to lynch him now, we would not have the benefit of looking at his interactions for buddying/bussing/distancing/accusing of being scum, etc. I can't see lynching anyone until the replacement arrives and at least puts something forward. If we lynch you, we have at least some of that information. To be clear, I'm not saying we should be lynch anyone at this point.

I think this is a very shallow way to have answered the question, and I also don't think you've shown any info that we'd not gain. The best you've managed is "their interactions towards others" which actually has *nothing* to do with being a VI and a *lot* to do with lurking...and you agree that scum lurk. SO I don't see the value of this as an issue, even if you think it's a big one.

While AngryFrog's replacement's alignment won't change right now the only way we could consider him scum would be by POE, and I don't think that is viable yet. Many times in the beginning of the game, I see too many people as scummy, rather than not enough.

I think you're answering the questions I asked Anenian at this stage. But...the point I was making there isn't applicable to you because you weren't voting him.

Both town and scum lurk. I think town tends to lurk more early in the game, whereas scum tends to lurk more towards then end. I don't know if there is any basis for that, but that seems like what I have seen elsewhere.

Depends on the gamestate and the player in question in my opinion. But if that's what you think does that mean you believe Angry Frog is more likely town? What about Egyptian?

I see.

That part of the text wasn't a reply for your post, that was (and is) for everyone

. So,

Also, = @Everyone

This explains my 1. point.

No it doesn't. I asked you about your situation, your answer was 'I was talking to everyone' it doesn't answer my, personal, reaction to your statement.

2. I had had a random vote on him. He asked for a replacement. For me, it's null tell. Okay, it's possible that AngryFrog got scared as a newbie that he should have played a scum right in his very first game but, even I don't take this seriously.

You were voting him before now.
Why?
What changed that made your original vote less viable to cause you to unvote now?

3. We're having a dispute with Mollie. I wish I had read her answer to my last post by now, but unfortunately, she's on V/LA. (I have been hoping that she has been able to answer a single

okay, FoS Aneninen

or

non-FoS Aneninen

or something, but that haven't happened yet. Remember, I suggested a bilateral FoS until our dispute ends.) Her answer is just as important for me as the first post of AngryFrog's replacement.

Which still shouldn't affect your vote on Angry Frog.

So, I don't think it would be wise to vote now and change my vote a couple of hours later. As far as I've read it in the Wiki somewhere, it might look scummy.

Feel free to prove me if I'm wrong, especially about my last paragraph.

Why are you more worried about looking scummy than about voting people you find scummy?

As it comes to this: what's the convention on this forum? Does quoting someone mean that the post goes for that single person or can I assume that if the content shows so, it goes for everyone?

If the former one is true, I must point out that this post: 139 was for everyone, not only for Thor.

Generally when you quote someone and ask a question/state a thought it is considered to be directed at that person.
If you want to get reactions from everyone you should have a line break or an @Everyone, or do something else to include them.
That said, as Vettrock just showed, sometimes this isn't even needed.

[Thor665]

I was planning on sitting down and actually reading the walls instead of putting it off, but I've been busy.

Skip the walls and read the rest.
Or replace out if you can't handle the heavy burden of reading that is...normal in a Mafia game.
But don't keep making these sorts of excuses - it's why I always want to be a Vig...and maybe why I never seem to be a Vig (seriously, I think I've been a Vig only once, and it was a Day Vig, and I shot scum, so pretty please Mods, just hand me that power some more, I want to see what my average would actually be)

Very Probable Scumteam: Thor665, Storks (Drew-Sta) (Rob13 buddying) and Rob13 (Thor bussed him when he was AngryFrog for some reason or other).

@Mod: The player list still has AngryFrog in it.

You should pur

@Mod comments

in bold, so the Mod notices them.

How much Mafia experience do you have? Real life and/or forum?

post-edit is what happens when you hit submit and the post does not go through and you see some people who managed to post before you. some call it ninja, I call it eta, thorella calls it post edit. thorella would never in a million years cheat so I hope that you were just joking!

I have done an illegal edit once, but it was a weird situation and I fully understood I was breaking a rule and PMed the mod about it both before and after.

Why are

you

that sure about this vote? Why do you want to lynch him even now? Are you supposed to lynch his replacement as well?

1. I am as sure about the vote on Angry Frog after he was announced as being replaced as before it - you were fine with the vote before he was replaced - so really the question isn't why my read didn't change, it's why your read did. It's silly to think otherwise.

2. I either want him lynched, or am trying to pressure him by saying I want him lynched - in either situation I am going to answer this question with 'because I think he's likely scum and I want him lynched'.

3. Are you not supposed to? A replacement doesn't get a different role PM last I checked.

Spoiler:

I've been playing Mafia IRL for more than 20 years, but, with different rules and setups. According to the IRL rules I know giving a scummy read on yourself, even false-claiming can be beneficial to the town (!!!) if played carefully. As far as I know, both count as bad gameplay at Forum Mafia. I ask again: am I wrong?

The goal of town is to not be a mislynch, find scum, convince others they have found scum, and lynch scum.
You appear to be focusing on one aspect in a weird way. Like, you're giving up on all the finding, convincing, and lynching parts of good town play to focus on the 'not being mislynched' part of the play.
Scum's optimal play is; not to be lynched.

That's why I'm asking about it. Both town and scum have a desire not to be lynched (anyone who plays town and doesn't care about being a mislynch is a bad town player) but, that said, it is not town's *only* goal. It *is* scum's only goal. That's why you doing it so heavily bugs me.

I have no particular read on Rob at this stage. I'm fine with my vote where it is.

The Rob v. Anenien war that is about to be launched into is going to be annoying and not helpful. This is Anenien's second wall war - I think he should learn to stop fully blaming Mollie for the first (though I'll happily agree she is a wall-war criminal...but it takes two to tango)

[Thor665]

Oh, and now that Angry has been replaced and a replacement has shown up - my town read on him was based on an early attack by a Newbie slot on the IC slot. Generally speaking that seems to happen more from paranoid town than cheeky scum. It's a personal tell and also requires thinking I'm town to have it matter - so there was no benefit to describing it earlier to the sad people who needed to hear about it (for no actual reason) and also it was not something I wanted to share until we had all the players posting, as Angry or a potential Angry replacement could have still been read by it.

This is why I don't always explain everything and sometimes answer with "I see no value to discuss that at this time" because, yes, sharing information = good for town. But...not always, and not always right at that second. I am blatantly obviously not shy about talking on my thoughts or claiming how brilliant I am - so I still find it surprisingly silly that anyone ever takes issue with this. Clearly I'll share stuff when I think it's fine, and though I keep some things close I share a lot of other stuff.

Also, for the record - I'm not sharing another thought I now have.
Because I'm working on it.

[Thor665]

"Him" in the above being Vettrock...obvious since Angry (nor Rob) ever attacked me.

[Thor665]

@Rob

From the above post, what is 'X' a direct quote of it would be awesome.

[Thor665]

@Anenien and Rob

Just...stop. Unless one of you tinks you're getting a better read on the other, just both stop.

@Rob - look at the response you answered from him at the bottom of last page, the one about quoting. I think it's pretty blatantly apparent that English is a second language here and/or there are additional communication issues on top of that. I will agree he is saying stuff that isn't legit...I don't feel that there's an intentional scum mindset behind it. He may be scum, but I don't think he's doing this because he's scum - if you grok the difference. What are your thoughts?

@Anenien - You need to improve your ability to communicate in this game (whether you are town or scum). There *are* misunderstandings happening, and I do not like that since I'm trying to figure out your alignment and don't need to waste my time reading multiple walls from you debating with people about things that aren't really what they said. Why do you think we're having this issue (twice no, so far, with Mollie and Rob...and, honestly, I think you've done it to me too I just didn't care enough to bother clarifying). Do you have any ideas about how we can make communication easier so we can hold you accountable for what you're saying, and so you can properly respond to things you are asked?

@Drew - Huzzah.

[Thor665]

@Anenem - the issue with you has *nothing* to do with how many words you post.

It has *everything* to do with you apparently misunderstanding everyone.

Even look at thi sconversation. I point out that there is a communication issue with you based around not understanding what people are asking you...and your response is to link me to a conversation wherein you're discussing how many words you type.

I don't care if you answer with one word or a hundred. I do care that you are communicative about the game and also strive to be understood and to understand others.
I am happy to hear you'll stop wasting time with weird debates. This debate is not a weird one, this debate affects our ability to read you accurately and is *very* important to the game.

Now, again, *why* do you think these communication problems are happening?

@Thor

For example, you're so ignorant about my posts that you still haven't been able to spell my name correctly, even if I've already posted about it.

First off, I will note that literally nothing in your list of issues with the game have I done.
I am expressing concerns about you though, and I really hope you respond to them.

I will moderately apologize for misspelling your name, but it's an unusual name and I keep wanting to type Armenian every time I see it, so I'll admit I'm mistyping it.
That said - that has nothing to do with anything as long as you understand who I mean when I type what I end up typing. You know I'm talking to you, so that is fine. If you always misspelled my name as Thort I would think it weird, but it wouldn't affect me in any way, nor would I call you ignorant for doing so. Note that Mollie calls me Thorella - I know she means me, so does everyone else, and so the game continues without wasting time or effort on it.

For the record? The name thing...it's kind of one of those meaningless side conversations.


@Drew - how does your above post aid the current gamestate? All I see is a post designed to denigrate Amenien and maybe help force his lynch by trying to dismiss his thoughts and contributions as meaningless. Was that your goal? If it wasn't your goal, what was the purpose of the post? If it was your goal - why are you at that stage?

[Thor665]

Re: Thor

That is ... possible, loathe as I am to admit it. I suppose systematic misrepresentation of what everyone says is possibly a result of a language barrier or failure in communication, rather than actual attempts to misrepresent. This would actually fit in better with my initial read. Maybe I was wrong about being wrong? It's worth noting that this does conflict with his claimed profession and, by omission, his claimed language skills. (I'm assuming that since he has failed to state that English is not his native language, it is such. I don't know why he would withhold such info after repeated questioning, since both town and scum would want people to understand that they could have communication issues.)

Having said that, well ... I don't know how to deal with that at all. How do I get an accurate read on someone who's communication I cannot rely upon? How can I trust that person to behave rationally with their vote if I cannot trust them to correctly parse through what others are saying? I'm sure your answer to that will be that it's my problem to figure that out (and it is), but I'm quite certain that I wouldn't want someone making it to LyLo who is having those type of communication problems and does not appear to be willing to sort through them.

If

I were convinced that this was an error to communicate, this would not be our Day 1 lynch, though. That's a big

if

. I need to sleep on this.

But, in summary, yes, your theory appears to make some sense.

A communication problem is no better or worse than the commonly maligned VI.
And most VIs are not much better or worse than the equally mistaken for VI - common newb player.

If I went around lynching every player I found to be less up to snuff than i would like - I'd be lynching over half this game on that principle alone without even having to work hard to pick one.

In my opinion it gets sorted one of two ways.
One - we work through the issue with his help, and assess him that way.
Two - he refuses to help, and we assess him from that stance.

There is also the theory third;
Three - we refuse to work through it and lynch him.

I know which action I consider the most pro-town, and how I would read people for their choices. You are, of course, free to make your own decision.

[Thor665]

I'll also say I don't think he's lying about his profession, and I don't think his stated profession has anything to do with anything as regards his alignment this game.

[Thor665]

I would like stabby to answer thorella's question on how much experience he has. if he has then I overlooked it.

He has not posted since I asked.

[Thor665]

5. the misrepresentation does not feel like it is due a language barrier. it feels like he is trying to dodge the points that are being addressed to him. thorella what I don't understand is why you are letting this go.

I don't know either. How am I letting it go? Like, where have I done this?

[Thor665]

it seemed earlier in the thread that you were ignoring it. and now that rob is bringing it up and so is drew you only just now are addressing it as if there is validity there.

you still aren't addressing it from a scumhunting perspective. you are being very neutral about it even when you address it. am I misinterpreting things? cos you poopooed on the blatant misreps posted by anem earlier in post #70. what changed?

My initial reaction to it was saying that your timezone talk with him was pointless, and there wasn't a misrep.
My more recent interaction with it was saying ROb's wall debate with him was pointless and that there wasn't a misrep.
So...I'm not sure what you think changed.

I have repeatedly stated that I think his communication issue is null - that *is* addressing it from a scumhunting perspective.

240; Thor

– So, if I deny admitting communication problems and refusing to ask for help I'm a VI. The very same logic as Rob's. Either answer can lead to the conclusion "we're allowed to disregard his posts", or, on a longer term, "we're allowed to policy lynch him". (If you don't get how the last part is reached, read the end of the spoiler above.) By the way, which way do you choose? It's not written.

Yes, if you refuse to help with the communication issue then you are a VI - I'd agree with that.
If you do that I would be fine with lynching you today.

If I were an IC and I had to sort out such an extensive communication problem, I would definitely choose a much easier way and I would do it as fast as I can. For example this: "Aneninen, since you're newb I give you an advice. It seems that you're answering in walls posts you might not understand well. If you're doing this you hinder the town's scumhunt. Try posting less and reading more. You don't need to explain every single sentence which is about you. You know, that's called defensive play and it's a scumtell."

I don't know how to communicate with you any clearer that I have no issue with your walls, and your communication issue has nothing to do with walls. <--this is part of your communication issue.
You're not reading stuff.
Stop that.

Unvote: Rob
Vote: Stabs

@Drew - how many Newbie games have you played in here on site? How many non-newbies have you played anywhere?

[Thor665]

I'm pretty sure this is town flailing.

Why?

[Thor665]

Because for me, the laughable part is that he's raging about my "close to chest" thing - when the grand total of what I've played "close to chest" is a town read on Vettock that I have since explained. Yeah, that was just crushing in my ability to roll this town as part of my scum plan...?

[Thor665]

#1: First of all, I am suspicious about Rob13's first 'chainsaw defense' of you, not your 'cards close to chest' meta.

#2: I don't think you are scummy for that only. You seem to really want to bus AngryFrog before he got replaced, presumably because you think people will suspect you if you don't bus him.

1. You mentioned the cards thing specifically.

2. So my fear was that I needed to distance from a scum partner that had no suspicion on him, and had posted nothing.

Go kill yourself scum. The noose won't hang you by itself.

I don't care if you lynch me. I just want to see Thor lose this game.

Sick of you guys. If I an a Dayvig you will be dead.

I shall make sure to policy lynch Thor every game after this for having a 'cards close to him' meta.

Besides, I have no idea why Rob13, a player who joined in 2012, is in a newbie slot.

This reads to me as angry (and tunneling) town, Thor.

It's a sudden and new suspicion - it's not a tunnel yet.

I will agree it reads angry, but the anger feels really sudden and weird. It doesn't feel like natural anger to me, it feels forced. Why do you think it makes sense for him to be that angry at me?

Preview Edit:

[Thor665]

@Thor: #1: I mentioned his mentioning of the cards thing specifically.

No, you said the following;

I shall make sure to policy lynch Thor every game after this for having a 'cards close to him' meta.

That is not having anything to do with Rob chainsawing for me. That has everything to do with anger at me for not revealing...something. How am I wrong here?

#2: Assuming you have been an IC for quite some time, you should know that newbies are sometimes (often) irresponsible and will not commit themself to a game. While town would either #1: suspect that the newbie is V/LA and did not know there was a V/LA feature, or #2: Question him, suspect him and go back to #1, you bussed him in your

first post

and did not stop until I petitioned for a prod for AngryFrog and he was replaced.

I don't get why scum like to bus when they could just play as if they had received a town PM.

2. I actually didn't stop until a while after that. Also, though I will agree that newbies in general can be irresponsible - I am unaware why that means I should have treated the slot as more likely town. I would not that Anemian *also* attacked the slot and he also didn't unvote it till the replace request - is he also scum? Both he and I did the same thing, is it only my IC status making it scummy?

I agree with this - I have openly advocated avoiding bussing for probably about the last six months in all my scum games.

The phrase 'policy lynch on Stabsinthe' or any variation of that set me off.

I hate policy lynchers. They are like Village Idiots who waste day lynches, without the Village Idiot part.

Oh, I can see that.

Quote me where I called your lynch a policy one and I'll immediately sheep your vote.

[Thor665]

#1: I always get lynched by scum who has their 'cards close to their chest'.

#2: Scum, 100% lurking? For some reason or other, a 100% newbie never get placed in a Mafia slot. Besides, town are more likely to have 'nothing to say and need to think' than scum.

Assuming a 100% lurker is scum just because he is a 100% lurker is just stupid, since a perma-AFK player could be town or scum, and there are more town than scum.

#3: That has nothing to do with you and everything to do with misinterpreting Rob's post right here. I just saw everything below the quote and thought it was referring to me.

1. That still seems to be an issue with me more than with what Rob said, as you claimed a few moments ago. Are you now saying it *was* about me? Well, okay, so what did I keep close to my chest that bugged you? And if it wasn't about me...what does this answer mean?

2. I disagree on all of this. You appear to be, at best, arguing it as a null tell that could mean either thing - and if that's the case there's no issue with me being willing to vote the slot or to not vote the slot.

3. So, again, why the rage directed at me? Rage at Rob would have made more sense to me, but there was rage at me and, as I've said, it felt weird, forced, sudden, and without reason for the amount of sudden rage - which is why I think it felt false.

[Thor665]

What would be a scum motivation for forcing anger at this point? Intentional flailing? Now, that's a strategy I haven't heard of.

I do it.

As far as a strategy - it is hardly a shocking or strange scum strategy to go with rage at any vote on you in order to dissuade votes on you.
He has also claimed familiarity with the game of mafia and experience in other games...so...you think he normally freaks out like this from one vote? I would be surprised if that was the case, but would love to hear your thoughts.

[Thor665]

1. I was confused as to what post you were referring to. I thought you meant the other one. Also, the answer means that I am usually a target for 'Just policy lynch this guy'.

For some reason, the number of players seemed to drop to 5 in my mind.

2. Don't you think AngryFrog was an easy lynch to earn free town cred?

3. There was a line with your name in it and one in his name in it in the rage post. The rage was directed at both of you.

1. Okay, but as we've now established, I'm not policy lynching you, I never attempted to policy lynch you, and I also (since you didn't list anything) never held info close to my chest that is upsetting you...so why are you upset at me?

2. No. He was never going to be lynched while the slot was inactive.

I strongly hope that you're a scum.
Because, if not, your gameplay is not simply bad. It's evil,

considering the fact that you're the IC of this game

, of a

newbie

game.
It's not only about me, it's not personal.
First of all, the fact that

you are for possible policy lynches

which are based upon players instead of reads. Second: 261

THIS

post clearly shows the effect of your gameplay. You've managed to make someone SO nervous with your style that he's raging. He gave an explanation about his rage in 268

I fully agree that I play in a way that causes other people to react to me and my thoughts.
Do you think it would be better if I posted in a way that didn't have people respond to me? That seems like a good way to avoid attention and not learn about other people...so really that play sounds like good scum play.
I will agree that I'm not playing in a way that is good scum play.
I don't know what any of this has to do with me being evil or being the IC. That sounds silly.

if this were my first Mafia game in my life I would leave this forum and maybe playing this game for good. So, I strongly hope that you're a scum or else you're going to have a damm good explanation for your style when the game ends.

If you find my amount of pressure unbearable - then maybe this isn't a good game for you. I've been very mild this game. Have you read any other Mafia games?

[Thor665]

@Thor

I must point out that the part you've quoted was an OFF-part. I would have sent you that via PM but as far as I know it's strictly forbidden.

Focus on the rest of the post.

There is no part of the any post that is not part of the game.

By the time you're quoting game posts to me, it is part of the game for certain. Please respond to my questions.

@Mollie - When (and if) my opinion about his "misreps" changes I do not think I'm likely to be shy about saying something about it. My opinon remains what it was - the "misreps" are a communication error, and not a malicious intent. The scummiest thing I could say about him is that he's dodgy. But I am not voting him yet for a reason. I am aware I am being mild, if you think that's a scumtell do with it whatever you wish.

Could you describe the Stabs towntells? I clearly do not see them, and the last person ho said that to me is now voting Stabs, so I should either gain a sheep or learn something

I agree with your point about the Rob/Thor scumteam to Anem and it is hilarious. I do find your vow not to read posts to be pure cancer in this thread though. It's just as bad as what Anem is doing, and maybe worse because at least one could argue that he is trying.

I also weep for your choice in beers

@Drew -

[Thor665]

His v/la is currently listed as lasting till the 24th.

[Thor665]

I am not wanting to vote him at all cos he is striking the right notes and he is in line with townherd mentality as awful as he is going about it.

Then why are you trying to convince me he's misrepping stuff? Or disagreeing/wanting to understand why I don't think he's misrepping stuff?

stabby not knowing how many scum there are is a pretty strong towntell.

I was all about this one till I asked his experience and got the answer I did. I would consider it within his purview to fake that level of tell.

he is coming unhinged and it does not look like scumflail; he is wanting to get his reads out there before he feels like giving up.

Meh and double meh. This is a gut read, you see his flail as town, i do not, we both agree there is flail and...that's the brick wall of the conversation. Judging by how ephemeral your answer was though, i see no issue with me not noting all of those tells.

well I did read his post so your point there is kind of moot.

Consider it a squelch of any further intent or statements of the same.

can 1 possibly lead a lynch on bad beer choices and it be correct? (yours not mine since you don't like IPAs)

Hey, I didn't say your preference for flavored water over beer was bad, i just said I found that your choice made me sad. Don't go denigrating good beer.

[Thor665]

I don't like molla's ketchup post. am I the only 1.

I think it is the best post he's provided to the game thus far, albeit with a bit of a low bar there.

(1) none of the other players have had such problems with me so far, not even Drew-Sta, who keeps tunnelling me. (Vettrock and BBMolla have even mentioned it that they have no problems.)

(2) Mollie, Thore and Rob are experienced players. This is important because if so, they must have come across such problems before! No matter what you say, it's about my texts or about my understanding, I doubt that if you're just as experienced as you three say, this is the first time when such a problem shows up.

I think it's odd how you don't see the logical conclusion here.

1. You note that almost all of the experienced players have an issue with your communication.
2. You note as a defense from this, that some newer players haven't indicated an issue with your communication.
3. You note that experienced players probably should have experienced this type of thing before.

Hint: yes, the experienced players *have* experienced this type of thing before.

That's why we're making a big deal out of it.

@Mollie - you are now sheeping Anenemen's theory. My expectations are met.

@Anenemen - Self voting - a guide

@Mollie - please explain how Rob's thing sounds like newbie town to you? It doesn't to me.

[Thor665]

I'm aware of that guide and I know what I'm doing

Vote: Anenien

Talk me through your self vote plan again.

This is L-1

[Thor665]

ya and rob is the only 1 to spin it into a scumtell. what is your read on rob?

Don't have one yet.

Also, instead of risking an L–1, Thor should have kept agitating me (especially, playing to his IC position) that my decision is wrong. Instead of this, he voted on me. Most probably he didn't dare to hammer me, Stabsinthe pointed out the significance of the hammering for me.

Actually I am agitating you. Because you're at L-1 and saying that the best strategy is to lynch you. And you didn't lynch yourself because, hey, you reconsidered!
So now the question for me is 'were you lying or not?'

Do you see any reason I should take your self-vote as anything but a ploy?

Do people have a townread on Drew?

No. Except for Anenem.

[Thor665]

I like the current wagon movement.

[Thor665]

I like the current wagon movement.

Then why aren't you joining it?

I am actively voting. I think you're mistaking 'wagon movement' with 'the current growing wagon'.



@The calvacade of people asking about the above - I am happy we have a counter wagon forming. I think that is good for the game. If we could get a dueling set of L-2 wagons or something I would be tickled pink. If you need me to explain anything beyond that, ask, but the short answer is - info for scumhunting.

It would be wise to drop that nickname, though, since it is not easy to see where it comes from and we're already having communication issues in this game to some degree. No need to complicate things.

Yeah, but Stabs is desperate to keep that cover story to cover his scummy play, so he needs to stick to it.

So, intending to self-hammer and self-voting are bad gameplays.

A'yup.
So now the question is if you actually got clever, or got scared of the bluff being called.

Egyptian is the most obv town of all time.

No, Vettock is. Egyptian probably is town too, but, still, don't get too excited there. His actions are much more fakable.

[Thor665]

Um What? I don't see what Stabsinthe (or his pending replacement) would get out of this? How does this cover his scummy play?

He attacked me for not reading while also asking about STorks - showing that he wasn't reading. His cover up story was that, somehow, reading Drew-sta's name got him...Storks. Feel free to work over in your own head how likely that is.

He then kept calling him storks to stick to that cover story.

What are your thoughts about this?

For

Thor and Rob

Who besides Aneninen do you see as scummy?

Stabs/Human Destroyer would be a top contender for me.

I think scum is Drew-Sta and mollie but nobody agrees with me and everyone thinks I'm scum so me preaching about it would be about as effective as yelling at a brick wall.

Aneniem doesn't have you as scum.
Neither do I.
Neither does Rob.
Egyptian didn't have any opinions.
Stabs was just replaced.

Please list the players who are scumreading you so harshly as to justify this wonderful solution of 'not explaining anything' to cope with their brutal attacks?

Anenien is town for this post

Please walk me through this one, step-by-step.
Because it feels shockingly likely to be fake.

Looking into Rob. Intention to hammer there if I confirm what I believe.

Before you hammer you should always make a claim request first.
Then allow the player to claim their role.
Then allow a bit of time for people to discuss the role to see if they still want the player lynched.
*Then* you are allowed to hammer.

Someone should remind me what the case on Rob is. I couldn't describe it to you besides Anenim's case, as he is the only one I've seen with the brass tacks to describe one - and he has Rob and I as scum partners (while Rob, in infinite brilliance has Anenem and I as partners - proving at least one of them is scum and/or derp in their conclusions, which is amusing to me)

[Thor665]

I could be a derp, but that doesn't change the fact that you've gotten through this game with very little real pressure (no, I don't consider newbies saying "I have him as a scum candidate" and never voting or explaining to be pressure), and also very little real scumhunting. It's certainly worth looking into, and if you are scum, you're scum with Aneninen.

Just to point out.
Anenemin's case on me is that I'm backing your play and setting him up to be lynched.
Your case on me is that I'm soft defending Anemien and trying to prevent his lynch.

I think what both of you are too silly to notice is that both of you are noting things I'm doing, while ignoring others in order to create your lulzy stance. I'm treating him fairly indifferently and am both attacking and defending him depending on my take of the situation.
This is also known as "normal town play"
I had little hope he'd figure it out, I'm sad that you're unable to spot it though - whassup?

Please list the players who are scumreading you so harshly as to justify this wonderful solution of 'not explaining anything' to cope with their brutal attacks?

@BBMolla ^^^

I have to confirm what I believe but yes I will continue with

How is the confirmation going?

On the "announcing a self-lynch and refusing to do so" subject – and this goes for everyone: remember, my self-vote resulted L–1. If I had been scared about getting lynched I wouldn't have given you a chance for it.

Regardless what you think about my alignment, move on, this topic leads to nowhere. If I get convinced that I'm wrong, I change the way I'm doing things. Only a foolish person (here: player) is unable to revise their own decisions.

Let's think about it: If you thought for real, that I was a scum with Thor, it would be irrelevant, which scum would be lynched. You would go for the easier lynch: me. If I flipped scum, you could say, you were right. But, if I flipped town, everyone would know that I was not lying. People would start re-analizing this Day, since there is a BIG difference between a player's posts and a proven townie's posts. Everyone might reconsider my theory about the Rob/Thor scumpair (I'm not saying that everyone would think it's true, but I'm pretty sure that many of you would re-read it!).
But, if Thor were lynched and he flipped scum, you could keep advocating that I'm his partner. Some might believe you, some might believe me, some might believe none of us... you might get away with it.

In short: it would be irrelevant for you which one of us would be lynched, Thor or me,

unless you knew who the scums are

!

You do realize that this play actually makes even more sense if you're his scumpartner, right?

It feels to me that he's actually trying to understand the motives of "stabby person" and I think his reaction to Molla's quicklynch thing is genuine noob not totally understanding what's going on (although this would point towards Molla + Anen not being scumpartners and I don't think Molla's scum anyway so I suppose this would be null on second thought).

So...asking whose someone FOS was on, and looking like a newb (who can be either a town or scum newb) equates to a rock solid and super town tell in your book?

And this is your only town read?

Vote: Human Destroyer
Vote: Human Destroyer
Vote: Human Destroyer

Good thing I'm a triple voter.

these are opinions.

Do you think that "opinion" helps justify shutting down all interactions?
I mean, I think you're one of the big ones scumreading him, and you didn't even ding on him with this most recent appearance. So why do you think he's mentally shutting down?

[Thor665]

First of all, I never said it was a "rock solid and super town tell", I think it is a post that comes from town. You're the one that chose to go crazy over this particular post, not me; I just feel it comes from town and that's all I needed to note about it.

Second of all, I have other townreads: Molla and Drew-sta come to mind, as well as weaker reads on Rob and Mollie (though the Rob read is getting stronger). I'm pretty sure I've said this already?

My reply is this;

so far though I have town as molla, anienen, and drew-sta, and scum as mollie and thor but the only read I feel really confident in so far is anienen-town

He is by a substantial margin the only read you were willing to get behind - by your own words. Your presented logic for doing so...lacks any apparent logic. What am I missing here? I'm willing to believe I'm wrong, because if I'm right you're talking crazy. So how am I wrong? Walk me through this town read again.

who are you talking about here. egyptian? are you saying he shut down the convo with his replace out? or rob?

I was talking about BBMolla - if you're going to interact with me and vote me over stuff - please read my comments in context so you know what's going on. Or, y'know, ask *first* like I usually do. I mean, you leapt into the Egyptian thing without apparently even knowing why I was making that comment or what my purpose was. I even just got BBMolla to admit I was right, so...what the heck Mollie? What are we doing here?

You call

that

an attack?

Yes. I do. I use that as a tell, and have used it on that exact type of thing multiple times in Newbie games as town - feel free to meta dive me, if you want to call me a liar let me know. I have little interest in explaining the tell if you can't understand how that's an attack post. Get over your own narrow definitions - the proper issue here would have been to ask me *how* it was an attack post, and maybe state your own theory on what an attack post is. You don't seem to want to understand me in this comment. I know I would suggest it's because you're scum desperate to paint anything I do as scummy because you know I have you dead to rights, but...what's you chosen cover story?

Or, you know, soft defending him when it's possible and hopping on the wagon when he seems to be going down in flames about to self-vote. I consider that fairly typical scum play, although I wouldn't necessarily expect you to do it.

Yes, I agree with you that I have both attacked and defended Anenenian in fairly equal measure over the course of the game.

I have done the same thing to you - fyi.
Also to Drew.
Probably some others as well.

I have had nothing but light poking at BBMolla and Mollie. I have defended Vettock the whole time.

I didn't respond cause you're right and I didn't want to admit it.

I tend to ignore townreads on me and focus on the scumreads on me, it's a big flaw in my play.

And are you over that now and will we get interaction again? Like a response to the case and some reads?

Don't understand the Egyptian townread btw, spell that out for me thanks

Look at how he replaced out. Rob and I even discussed it at the time. I don't consider it as strong as Rob does, but I do agree that it feels like a townish replace out.

[Thor665]

@Mollie - aren't you even calling me scum with BBMolla right now? At least pay attention to my conversations with my theory scumpartner - yeah? If you're town...well, y'know.

[Thor665]

Rob, in infinite brilliance has Anenem and I as partners - proving at least one of them is scum and/or derp in their conclusions, which is amusing to me

Well, I did do that.
I was probably calling you town or something and just didn't realize it.
Also, I'd note I haven't called you town yet this game. It's not because I lurv everything you're spewing.

[Thor665]

I am mildly buying Drew's earlier slip to vaguely knock him back to nullish for me, though I agree the rest of his play has been pretty questionable.
I think a Raynor scumread is pretty off base - especially if you're town reading Anenenian.

Why do you think Stabs/HD are town? I loathe that slot and everything about it, what am I missing there?

[Thor665]

^This

And him saying he thought there were 3 scum.

As regards 'this' I think it's all pretty fakeable - even when I asked him about some of the things he expressed anger about he functionally had no real explanation and even got wiggly about the anger expressed at me and said it wasn't about me and was instead about Rob.

I'll agree he did that slip - so did Drew. You are scumreading Drew. Discuss?

yeah I read it in context. this is what you said:

these are opinions.

Do you think that "opinion" helps justify shutting down all interactions?
I mean, I think you're one of the big ones scumreading him, and you didn't even ding on him with this most recent appearance. So why do you think he's mentally shutting down?

how exactly were you talking about molla in that context?

Well...let's not talk about the middle post, but instead go back to the first post you responded to when I said the original comment that got you in a tizzy, shall we?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5974846

Please note that "@BBMolla" comment in

bold text

It's pretty subtle, but it's there. Now let's go back to the original original comment;

I think scum is Drew-Sta and mollie but nobody agrees with me and everyone thinks I'm scum so me preaching about it would be about as effective as yelling at a brick wall.

Aneniem doesn't have you as scum.
Neither do I.
Neither does Rob.

Egyptian didn't have any opinions.

Stabs was just replaced.

Please list the players who are scumreading you so harshly as to justify this wonderful solution of 'not explaining anything' to cope with their brutal attacks?

I put in italics what you responded to.
Did you really read this in context and have NO IDEA that it was about BBMolla?
I now believe you are lying to me about reading it in context - because I choose not to believe you are that dumb.
So, again, what game are we playing here, Mollie? When I ask you to read in the future could you please do so?
And why are you leaping at me without having your facts in order - if you're town this is *really bad*.
Whassup?

Yeah the only read I could get behind...on page 3.

I felt no one else had posted anything that gave me a

significant

town vibe except Anenien

at this point

. That is what you're missing, I think, that it is confident in terms of early reads and I'm not sure why it's surprising to you how few significant town reads I would have on page 3.

Okay...so when you accused me of misrepresenting and inventing my own language when I said that you expressed the read as strong and really loved that post by him...how does any of this support that?
Because it seems to support my stance - it *was* that post that sold you and he *was* a strong read and the only read you felt any strength over because of that post.

So, now that we've sorted that out, can we go back to my original question of "why?" as regards that post giving you such town vibes?
I'd love to see an answer now.

I'm not sure if 1) this is just too small a sample size, 2) Thor's lying, or 3) I'm missing something huge in these games.

Well...you looked at six games and, functionally, only found support for the tell and found nothing that disproves it.
I've got a theory what that means, but I look forward to you expanding on your thoughts as you get to your own answer.

[Thor665]

I'll agree he did that slip - so did Drew. You are scumreading Drew. Discuss?

Link me?

Okay.

Appreciate your expansion on this. But, most importantly to me, how exactly do you know there is only two mafia in the game? Am I missing the game setup somehow?!

Discuss?

I honestly don't think I can explain it to you in terms that you would accept mostly because it's not really a logical read but what I feel about the post.

Why did you react negatively to me asking about logic you knew was weird since you can't even explain it? Shouldn't that seem really normal from me?
Also, I will admit I am not a fan of this answer.

I actually realized last night as I was falling asleep that if you used the tell at all that would mean that it exists, so I concede this point.
I derped that up.

Doesn't mean I'll use that tell or agree with it...but I will concede that you use it in that way.

I at no point asked anyone else to use the tell, and even clarified that the tell obligates you to think of me as town - so it's a hard tell for anyone else to use. You have successfully shown that I shouldn't do something I didn't do. I'll admit I'm mostly writing it off as mudslinging you're backing away from though.

Intention to vote Rob; can he please answer my Q's and also can we push for a role claim?

I'd be willing to support a claim - if he was at L-1 with hammer intent.

Currently he is at L-3...with you stating intent to put him at L-2.

What is it you need to see happen before you're willing to vote him...? Seems like if you think he's scuma nd you want a claim, you should already be voting him and asking for other people to do the same.

[Thor665]

@Rob - what is the scum case n me. It occurs to me I have no idea why you think I'm scum other than my defense of Anenenin...and the only way that is scummy is if Anenenian is scum...and you want to lynch me first of the two of us. So I'm pretty sure I don't understand your case. What is it?

[Thor665]

You haven't been actively scumhunting as best I can tell until recently, which isn't normal for you. You were oddly passive.

And who are your town reads, currently? As best I can tell, you've avoided committing to many (any?) of them.

I would actually submit that I've been scumhunting *less* recently. I've been pretty tied up with work for about two weeks straight, so my active time was earlier, not later.

I will agree that I don't have many town reads - I submit that is failure in others rather than scumminess in myself. Also, quite frankly, I'd challenge you to find the scum game I didn't have town reads in. It's a lot easier to come up with them as scum.

Like you can't tell me the wording on that seems more genuine than Stab's.

I can tell you that it seems no less genuine to me.

Are you dismissing it because you're already scumreading him? Or are you legit telling me that him mudslinging over someone's case on scum numbers is somehow not a decent town tell while Stab's lazy 'three scum, mur!' post was pure town? I personally am more sold by the Drew one than the Stabs one if I was going to use the slips to form a read.

[Thor665]

@Rob - also, if you think I haven't committed to 'any' town reads - then I think you're not reading the game very well.

[Thor665]

It was answered in 294. I take it you forgot you commented (by way of emoticon) in 298?

Well, since I wasn't asking you anything and was directly responding to BBMolla's question - I'm going to just take this as an open claim that you're skimming for your name.
Why are you doing this instead of reading things?

This is your answer, isn't it. You want to see if other people will take the chance to lynch him based on your word, and based on absolutely no interaction with him at all. Its a flush move. You flush out someone willing to try and lynch someone based on nothing. Yeah?

Or those who oppose it. It's not even an attempt to flush anything, I just want to see how people will react in order to be able to assess those actions later.

T216 - So you knew Angry was town? How? I may have misunderstood your comment.

As long as you're isoing me...read post 217. I am iffy on this iso now.

TYou're reading right now far differently to the skim I gave you before. You're more precise and deliberate than I thought. Its a little scary actually. The vague bit I was reading was you not giving information, but 216 appears to claim that you are deliberate as to when you release info as mafia will have it too, and will use / manipulate it to their own end. Correct?

Sure, sounds good.

T270 - You think Stab / HD slot is mafia based off the Stab emotion being forced? Is the forced aspect a feeling or is there something you can point to?

I pointed to it repeatedly already and even had a discussion with him about it - the anger directed at me to which his reply was that it was anger directed at Rob to which my rebuttal was that does not appear to be supported in what he typed.

[Thor665]

@Mollie - no response to my pointing out the lack of your reading comprehension?

On the thought of reading comprehension - I'd love you to quote me saying the 3 scum slip thing was a scumtell. If you can I promise to self-vote. If you can't I promise to make fun of you again. I have called it neither a town nor a scumtell.
You should sheep me. It would less obnoxious on a couple of fronts.

[Thor665]

Mollie is...probably town.
There is scum on my wagon.
My gut says it's HD (duh)
I will presume Vettock will stick with his sloppy hammer intent (I still think he's likely town)

I refuse to claim until everyone voting me that isn't Aneneim *states their case on me* (Vettock can as well, but I don't care about his case)

I will claim after that.
This is a ridiculously poor wagon. And I want to make that painfully clear by forcing people to state their cases.
Doesn't even need to be big - 1-2 sentences is fine.

[Thor665]

To be clear, I'll probably go back to Thor. I just don't want a hammer until HD answers that.

Keep voting me - I want you on there for the mod vote count. If Vettock suddenly derp hammers me then you can assess that tomorrow.

[Thor665]

I understand it is in your interests to call the wagon against you "ridiculously poor". I wouldn't consider it any more ridiculous that other D1 wagons.

How many of the people voting me can you describe the reason for their vote?
I'll note that the two best explained ones are Aneneian and Rob - Rob's case is that I'm scum with Anenenian and am protecting him, and Anenenian's case is that I am scum with Rob and trying to get Anenenian lynched. That is, literally, the two best justified votes.

That is why this wagon is bad.

If you fail to see that, then you need to learn to assess things in a different manner than you are currently choosing to use.

@Thor - I've already explained why I'm voting you, so I assume you're excluding me from the list of people who should do so.

I was sort of hoping for a reply to me gutting your case and dancing about it in garters. No? You even said you would "think about it" and now are back to SOP. So...did you think about it? What was your conclusion? Specifically? Because it feels like you're pretending the conversation never happened.

I really dislike the refusal to claim at this juncture. We have 14 hours left. If your claim makes any difference, we need to have time to lynch someone else.

So you think the wagon on me is all town save for Aneneian and are sticking to that? This feels like a wagon on scum to you? The wagon that came from nowhere, has no unified case, and no clear statements of support that don't contradict each other? That's the case you like?

[Thor665]

UNVOTE:

Thor I voted you because I think you are much more likely scum than Rob.

You say this while also arguning that Stabs is scum - a case I ruddy *created*.

[Thor665]

So, basically, you unvoted a scum read, to vote a 'meh, whatevs' read to protect a town read on Rob?
That's your play, eh?

Yeah, I'm glad you've unvoted again.
Now vote Stabs.

[Thor665]

So, do you still (or did you ever) think I was scum beyond a 'I don't think Rob is scum' case as a reason for voting me?
Because that is a really weak reason to vote someone, so what are your scumreads...is it me? There should be more to the case than that if I am, and is anyone else?

Edit: Ah, so we're at a 'can't read Thor, might as well lynch him' case. Okay. That's at least a theory that's not pure scum - though is still a weak case. I'm guessing you have no scumreads then?

HD should claim if and only if people man up enough to put him at L-1 with hammer intent.

[Thor665]

He was also the one trying - usually in lylo I find 'tryhard' to be a pretty reliable town tell.

[Thor665]

You get better - the more lylos you go to, the stronger you'll be in lylo.
You probably should have shook their cases more and tried to force a little more Q&A exchanges.

You did do well in not asking them to attack each others' cases - that is a trap I see too many people fall into and the ensuing blather is never a good thing to help town find truth in the situation.

[Thor665]

I am pretty sure i asked them to attack each other's cases. what I am asking now is how I could have done things differently?

Well, lots of things, clearly.

But to my mind, lylo, as the confirmed town, comes down to a couple of simple questions.

First - analyze their past interactions with scum. This involves searching for what they said about the scum, and also what the scum said about them. What I usually look for is a point where they seem to legit attempt to either lynch the other, or a situation where there is an overt defense that doesn't seem to make sense from a scumbuddy (yes, I look for overt defenses - because I think current meta frowns on them, with certain specific players excepted)

Secondly, my other favorite thing to look at is the night kill. A scum player sat there and killed someone for a reason. You should look at the death and ask yourself who benefited from it the most.

Thirdly, and a step I didn't see you consider, there is the old rule of 'if you are in lylo with a relatively town looking player and a relatively scummy player who has been scummy all game - vote the town player. Because few scum go into lylo with someone who looks townier than them (unless they're me...but...sometimes that hasn't worked for me, it's just a good laugh when it does).

Other than those three - you should have just kept scumhunting via whatever your usual scumhunting method is. If it had been me I would have been attacking both freely and forcing them to defend every decision they were making just to see which of the two felt less real - hopefully whatever your method is you were doing that to them throughout to keep forcing them to maintain their town vibes or to test their scum vibes from you.

Never ask them to attack each other when you're the confirmed town - that will become a slapfight and is just a contest of "who is better at arguing" which has nothing to do with "who is scummy".

[Thor665]

Eh, they lynched me. I still couldn't describe the case of anyone except you and Anen - and your cases were literally contradictory of each other.

[Thor665]

I do second the call that the Rob lynch was not a well done lynch by town. I said as much in the QT and repeat it here.

[Thor665]

Who was the kill?

[Thor665]

With a lynch of drew, I would know it wasn't a drastic scum action to try to turn around the Day 1 lynch to me.
With no other information my reads would have remained about the same.

Looking back my top scumspects appeared to be BB or HD - I would have probably continued on the HD push.

[Thor665]

I would refuse to include that info in y speech because it would be anti-town in my opinion.