Newbie 1533 - GAME OVER

[Fluminator]

Hello Everyone. I will read through.

[Fluminator]

The extension would be much appreciated. I'm only on page 10 so far. And I will probably need to read it twice.
I should introduce myself. Second game of mafia I've played online. My last game had TN5421 in it and it was very short. I've read through a couple others on another site. I mainly play live games which are very different.
I'm finding the person I'm replacing is very overwhelming. Looks like it's going to be a good game though.

[Fluminator]

Ok, I read through it all. It was a little overwhelming but it helped knowing Csareo's alignment. Don't worry about pressuring me.
I find it strange Csareo stopped posting. I don't think it was because he was under pressure. His personality doesn't seem the type.

Initial gut feels.
TN5 came across as town to me at the start. After the exchange between him and DrCirno he looks a bit more suspicious, mainly because DrCirno seems town to me.
TGS seemed to be playing a very safe game at the start and didn't stick out. Will need to reread his posts.
Ditto with Shiro.
Llamafluff is a little suspicious to me probably because he's targeting Csareo and mentioned being fine with lynching DrCirno. I will reread his reasons.
Beeboy seemed suspicious to me at the start. I think it was TN that mentioned he had meta that indicated he was an idiot? Could you expand on that? Not sure what notscience is doing, but whatever it is, it seems to be working.
No opinion on Bullish yet.

Things I plan to do next:
Re-read the cases on Csario and see if they are well reasoned or if the people making them are just basing it off his abrasiveness.
Study the case on TN5.
Reread Bullish's posts.

If you ask me questions about what my opinion is on certain things, I'll try to respond quickly.

[Fluminator]

@Fluminator:

You imply that playing safe isn't very townish behavior, but considered me town during the time I was doing so. Am I reading that right or am I assuming too much?

I think DrCirno might simply be misguided town; at least he gave decent reasons for voting me.

Things I'm interested in your perspective on:

Bullish in general
Opinion of InnocentVillager
How do you feel about replacing in for Csareo? What would you have done differently at certain parts of the game if you were here from the start?

I did kind of imply that. When playing safe it's harder to contradict yourself, something townies don't have to worry about as much. I've started to re-read it though and find TGS is in the action a lot more than I thought. I got town vibes from you at the start because you were posting a lot of helpful things and seemed to genuinely be suspicious of people.

InnocentVillager's case against Llama didn't make a lot of sense to me, but doesn't make me suspicious. That early in the game, all cases are probably pretty forced. I think he's lurking because of time issues. Null read.

Replacing Csareo is very interesting. He didn't do that many bad things I found. I definitely wouldn't have attacked Beeboy as hard as he did. I also disagreed with him voting Llama because of a policy.

I can't believe what I'm hearing. Why is he an IC, giving the absolute worse advice I heard in mafia.
The only people opposed to reads lists are scum, because they know it brings attention on them.

UNVOTE: Beeboy
VOTE: llama

I'm not going to pretend that this is anything less than a policy lynch.

I don't see how policy lynches are at all good to do.

Ah, so you disagree with my theory, so I must be scum.

Vote Csareo

That was easy, gut read justified. Will lay this out a whole lot more tomorrow (or Saturday), but hiding behind a lynch based on theoretical differences is a major tell. If you don't agree with theory fine, but you don't lynch based on a theoretical difference. As I have said, I completely refuse to lie about theory as an IC. I fully believe that lists are horrible for town. When I am scum and see them, I am thrilled because anything that isn't crystal clear, or anyone who isn't that great about putting out all of their leaning one way or another read just gave me what I need. I no longer have to wonder if player X that I think should be being read as town is actually read as town by everyone else. If someone is picking up a consensus townish read I could do something about it.

Lists are bad. Period. Every time I have seen them as scum it gave me a bit of information that I was missing before or something like that. Every time I have seen them as town, it rarely gave me anything workable. Scum benefit from them far more.

I don't find voting for Csareo here any better. You basically just voted for him because he is doing a policy lynch and is a bit of a tool. I'll respond to the arguments on Csareo being scum soon.

I reread Bullish's posts and I lean town. He's mainly been posting about his suspicions on TN and Bee, and defending Csareo. When I know he is defending someone innocent it makes him look better. I know mafia can do that, but he brought in good meta information that easily would have been missed by everyone else.

[Fluminator]

I did kind of imply that. When playing safe it's harder to contradict yourself, something townies don't have to worry about as much.

To clarify, I mean your less likely to accidentally contradict yourself.

[Fluminator]

@Fluminator, would like to hear what you think about beeboy's play and the wagon on him.

His first post didn't give me that great of an impression.

I love wagooning

Vote: Csareo

I don't think he was just an idiot though. He had coherent sentences. He seemed smart enough to know better and we shouldn't just write it off as stupidity. Being replaced out isn't a scum tell in my opinion, but if I had to vote to lynch someone it would be him/notscience. I don't like how notscience is getting away with just being a troll. (Albeit a very funny and clever one.)

[Fluminator]

Im really happy leaving my vote on Csareo here. Will break this one down a bit.

1) His "random" vote is still bad. For someone who seems to always want information and accountability and hates RVS, it even makes less sense. It makes zero accountability for what is going on and prolongs RVS. Even a "vote because of joke" comes from a conscious choice.

2) The attack on Bullish for being online but not voting. People do this all the time. I will log on to make sure there is nothing critical happening for List Mod stuff. I will log on and start reading then have something come up in life. Or try to get a post done while making dinner and run out of time. Or do some Mafia Discussion reading. In this situation its not a tell. If it was near a deadline and they logged on then didn't cast a vote to prevent a no lynch, then yes, I can see it being scummy. Here? No.

3) His votes tend to lack some conviction. He voted bee early and outright said he would remove his vote after a response. He voted me due to theory disagreement. He went back to voting bee and asking for just pressure votes. He is not really making too many cases, and his one on bee has at least one really bad point (saying his reads agree with consensus - are you supposed to change your reads to be unique?).

4) His vote on TGS basically is bullying, and in a very scummy way. First lets get one thing clear - its not a pressure vote if you say its a pressure vote. Its a pressure vote when you DONT say it is (note you should never pressure vote a town read but I think we know that). On top of that, you actually say "gut says Bullish is scum" and then vote TGS for voting Bullish. At best, you are being unproductive and anti-town.

Then we have this one which REALLY bugs me and may be a slip:

I've given my reasoning for getting off the wagon for now. If you find it suspicious, fine. Why are you so sure that nobody's going to hammer him, Csareo?

Because if they do, then we'll hammer them tommorow.
If someone did, they would instantly be tagged as scum.

Why do you say this if you think Bee is scum? The assumption that we quicklynch the player who hammered without a claim relies of the lynched player being town. All of your posts regarding the quicklynch possibility are made from the mindset that bee, who you are trying to get lynched, is town.

Will have more stuff later. For now lets get some wagons moving.

1) I find this very weak.
2) I agree Csareo's accusation was weak, but knowing his personality it was just to get Bullish to post faster. He liked applying pressure. That accusation helped town in the end because it generated some discussion.
3) Definitely not a scumtell in my experience. I've seen many town players bounces their vote around.
4) Being a bully doesn't mean your mafia.
The last one is weak too. He said "if." I honestly don't follow your logic. He's certain Bee won't get quicklynched because it is a scumtell to quicklynch somebody.

[Fluminator]

Okay, so quick skim through, random notes.

-Csareo's weird obsession with who's lurking is weird, especially now that he's replaced after coming under fire. It is worth noting that he hasn't logged in in three days, though, so it's not like he only stopped posting in this game. Still it's pretty hypocritical.

-something from Csareo when I asked him what a better vote from beeboy would have been.

Eh hem, okay. I was basically trying to say that beeboy chose one thing in a million to pressure. I assume that he was trying to pressure another player, and didn't already have an affirmative read, so why choose the weakest justification possible when choosing a target to pressure? It was almost as if he was scraping for a reason to vote T5.

He's kind of dancing around my question here, so that's notable I guess.

-blah blah, Llama comes in and Csareo argues with him about theory. Then he changes his icon to that "lynch beeboy" thing, which at the time struck me as so over-the-top that it must be a bus. Not as convinced of that now, but the way he switched gears and voted me as soon as I got off the wagon, saying that it was scummy, and the way he said we could just lynch anyone that hammered beeboy have me convinced that he knew beeboy's alignment.

-I really only see Llama talking about theory stuff for most of the early game, at least until getting into a big argument with Csareo... which mostly involved disagreeing on theory. I agreed with his vote on Csareo then and I do now, though. Doubt they'd both be scum.

-Csareo says he's almost positive beeboy is scum even though his vote was still on me :I

-Csareo's last bit of defending himself before he went inactive: he's still calling out people for posting in other threads (when he was doing the same thing) says nobody has posted reasons for voting him when they have, says we have to scumhunt not defend ourselves when he's pretty much stopped asking anyone any questions at this point.

One thing notable was that Csareo at one point "unvoted notscience" even though his vote was on me at the time. It seemed minor when I first saw it, but when I think about it now, it really shows that he wasn't all that concerned with where his vote was the way I would expect a townie to be.

Anyway then he unvotes, says a big post is coming, and vanishes.

So, okay. I'm comfortable going back to my original read.

UNVOTE: TN
VOTE: Fluminator

I know you just replaced into Csareo's slot, Fluminator, but this is my strongest read at the moment. Think of it as motivation to read through the thread sooner

I took out your points not related to me. In order of the quote.
-I wouldn't call his obsession with lurkers weird. Lurkers can be very annoying sometimes.
-I don't get the impression he was avoiding your question.
-Re-read what he said (quoted it in my last post). It is quite reasonable. He said that if anyone quicklynched beeboy, it would be a scumtell. I don't see the connection with how that means Csareo knew Beeboy was town.
-Csareo clearly stated his vote for llama was just a policy lynch. (Which was dumb imo). But llama than strawmans and says Csareo thinks llama is scum. He then votes Csareo based off that. Csareo clarifies again next post but llama seems to have missed it.
-No comment really.
-I do not get why Csareo stopped playing all of his games. He probably rage-quit the whole site.
-The main thing against Csareo seems to be how he hopped his vote around. Once again, I can say I have seen town players do that before. My last game here had the player Rubicon bounce his vote around all game and he was town. (And he was probably the most effective scumhunter that game.)

[Fluminator]

I think I get where you're coming from now. Csareo definitely thought Beeboy was scum but he was responding to your question. He probably knew you didn't think he was scum. What would have been a satisfying answer to you?
"Don't worry, no one will quickhammer Beeboy because Beeboy is scum" That probably wouldn't have satisfied you at all.

VOTE: notscience
This would be the person I want lynched right now. I mentioned it in one of my posts up there. I want to read all of DrCirno's posts about beeboy and TN though because he thinks beeboy is innocent.

[Fluminator]

Notscience's funny trolling has removed the pressure off himself. No one else is voting for him now. I don't know how that worked so well.

[Fluminator]

Yes, we really need to speed it up now. Could DrCirno maybe recap briefly the main reasons why TN is scum. The other suspects seem to be me, notscience (maybe me and Bullish are alone in that now), and innocentvillager. If people could summarize the case on each of us it will be easier for people to decide. I think the case against me was summarized higher up not too long ago.
I don't think much of a case can be made on innocentvillager because he hardly posts. I'd lynch him if I have to, but he would be my last choice out of the options, after me of course. I don't think any information would be gained from lynching him. He hasn't posted enough that lynching him would be a crapshoot. He's lurking due to lack of time irl.

So my order of lynching preference would right now be:
1. notscience
2. TN
3. Invisible Villager

[Fluminator]

I think it is usually a null tell. It's annoying, but real life happens and people sometime don't have as much time for this game. whether they're mafia or not.

[Fluminator]

You should vote for one of them then.

[Fluminator]

4 people with 1 vote. 2 people with 2 votes. 2 days left. wow. I would expect the mafia to be loving this.
I don't think the vote on Bullish will do much good TN. It's just making the voting even more scattered.
It seems like everyone is saying since we can't decide we could just lynch the lurker Innocent Villager. That is a bad idea. Let's make an actual decision. Or am I misreading it and people actually think he is scum?

Notscience is acting in a way similar to what I would have acted had my slot been scum so that raised my flags. And I don't think Beeboy was as dumb as you all make him out to be. And I feel like I've seen many people mention they would vote for him.
Shiro, InnocentVillager, DrCirno, we need your thoughts. Your votes aren't on anywhere very useful. (Although I feel like mine isn't either) Which people would you be okay with getting lynched?
Maybe everyone should quickly make a list of who they are okay with to get lynched? Preferably not including IV.

[Fluminator]

Nope. The only way TN's actions right now make sense to me is if he's scum trying to stall to no-lynch.

Are you prepared to back that up? I'm willing to die to prove that I'm town. Are you?

What's that supposed to mean? I've never read something like that before.

[Fluminator]

Thanks for making me even more sure of my vote.

[Fluminator]

No one has threatened to hammer either. You could still make it out. Either you are a good mafia, or an apathetic town.

[Fluminator]

Good game mafia. I was in the game for a very short time but I still skimmed through it all. Figured I would post my thoughts.
Notscience: You are a funny guy. In a good way.

Bullish: Hope you stay on the site. Do keep note of the fact that only two townies mislynched you.

TN5421: Good playing with you again. Surprised you got killed. I thought you would be the one to end up with the pivotal decision at the end.

Fuzzylogic: You did a good job for the most part. I appreciate how you never gave up. You lasted a lot longer than I thought you would because of it.

DrCirno: You are a really strong player.

Llamafluff: Good job IC ing.

Teen Girl Squad: You did a good job coming across as town to me. You had really good reasons for what you thought. I guess it just didn't work out for you this game.

Shiro: Superb showing. Although you do realize if you post something, it will warn you of all new posts before you finish submitting. I don't think you made any notable mistakes though.