Newbie 1533 - GAME OVER

[tn5421]

Ah, convenient time to come on the site.
VOTE: bluisthesky
Random.org vote. Anyways, I've played for about 2 years elsewhere.
Note: I will not share my old games, for meta reasons

Please note the vote in post #5 is invalid because that player was replaced … by you.

Usually we get to page two before something like this happens.

Ah, convenient time to come on the site.
VOTE: bluisthesky
Random.org vote. Anyways, I've played for about 2 years elsewhere.
Note: I will not share my old games, for meta reasons

Im literally dying

VOTE: Csareo

Are you literally okay now?

What up, nerds.

VOTE: Csareo

Let's wagon, woooo.

also i'd like to know what everybody's experience with mafia is, or like a general idea of how much you've acted as an SE or IC in newbie games for the more experienced players.

As for me, I actually joined here a long time ago (like 3 or 4 years) and played for a little bit before i made this account. and i've played a little on another forum and in real life. So i'm not totally new but it's been long enough that i figured i should start over.

This is my first game as an SE, but I've played a lot on the forum recently. I'm still not really any good, but I try.

Greetings, I am your IC (Inexperience Challenged) player for this game. My name is also in green which means I am a List Mod and I take care of making sure the Open Queue runs smoothly and any problems that come up with players there get resolved. If you ever have any major in game problem, do not hesitate to PM someone in green if you think a mod is doing something they shouldn't be, someone is cheating, etc.

If you ever have any questions on theory, I will answer it truthfully. I am here to teach to an extent, but I still am here to play. I will not do anything that compromises my win condition. Just ask anything, and I will explain things as it comes up but if I am making the assumption that you know something you do not - please tell me.

Randomly voting removes all of the responsibility for your vote, which is a bad thing. I would vote for Csaro here but I am not going to put someone at L-1 (Lynch minus one, one vote from being lynched) on the first page as that could cause an accidental hammer.

You'll find me...green with envy at your post.

Players should keep in mind that while Llama's answers about game theory might be true, he is also a player and you shouldn't just assume they are true without thinking. Put your critical thinking skills to use when receiving any advice (including, and especially, mine) and you'll do fine.

The generally accepted line between being active and being a lurker is 1 post a day (if heavy on content) or 2-3 posts (with lighter content). Remember that posting more isn't always better, especially low-content high-frequency posts.

VOTE: llamafluff
This has nothing to do with my disdain for IC's

. Glad to see a 6 year experienced IC aboard the game

These two statement contradict themeselves

No, not necessarily. You neglect the possibility that Csareo might have something against this particular IC.

@IC, why does the server show people who are logged on? It seems like that would hinder mafia plays.
Can players hide themselves, or are the hidden users guests? Genuine questions for future reference.

User Control Panel -> Board Settings -> "Hide my online status"
I believe that anyone that chooses to hide themselves only shows up for admin users (those with red usernames), but Llama would know more about that than I would.

[tn5421]

I think that's everyone in the game that's posted now? Oooh, how exciting. From the looks of everybody's answers, it seems that all of us are relatively experienced and nobody's going into this totally blind, although beeboy is the newest by a wide margin. Good to know.

@TN, Why should we be "especially" cautious about your advice?

@Reni, could you tell us a little more about the games of mafia you played on the other forum? like, in what ways are they different than how it's played here? and what do you find suspicious about Csareo and Llama?

@innocentvillager I find your vote strange. Could you elaborate on your reasoning a little?

@Bullish, who's the one you know?

@Csaero, would you say you consider lurking scummy?

My current success rate is not as good as I want it to be.

~~~~

No, not necessarily. You neglect the possibility that Csareo might have something against this particular IC.

How can he dislike IC yet be glad one is onboard ? If he was glad an IC was here he wouldn't dislike them. And he was specific to say that voting him had nothing to do with his disdain with IC meaning it was a general felling toward them IC.

He disdain IC yet he is glad one is onboard. It is pretty contradictionary imo

He may have had a poor experience with an IC before

Of course. Lurking is what makes these games not fun. The ideal scum is an inactive one.

As in the first people to get lynched cause of inactivity XD No the ideal scum is defenitly not inactive. The ideal scum fits in.

Don't just ask questions for the sake of asking questions.

Well at least something is being done. And tbh there isn't really a definitve overly defensive. If fingers are pointed at you, you have to defend yourself. Ignoring them wont really make you seem any less scummy

....You should try spell check. I fixed your busted quote in this by the way.

~~~~

Unvote
Vote: TN

A large post without adding anything to the game is odd

Game + seasoning + wifom + advice + chatter = fun game

oh wai-

I'll answer your quote with a quote:

I love wagooning

Vote: Csareo

I have no reason to take you seriously.

~~~~

Oh hi I'm an SE semi-experienced and yeah if you have questions you can ask me and stuff but we're

mostly just llamafluff's backup bitches

so go to him if you want to know shit

There are 3 experienced players in a game to ensure that not all experienced players somehow end up on the scum team, which would screw the town.

~~~~

In case anyone was wondering, I do this tildes thing to make it easier to see whom I am addressing at any particular time, as I do quote : reply to indicate who I'm talking to most of the time.

[tn5421]

The multi-quote feature is bad, I regular quote every post and put them in order in the post editor or notepad (notepad if huge and posteditor if small)

@Csareo: If you don't like me using quotes to respond to people,

you're playing the wrong game

[tn5421]

You claim my posts aren't productive, but what exactly are you doing, Csareo?

[tn5421]

You claim my posts aren't productive, but what exactly are you doing, Csareo?

Straw Man: The downfall of man
Your posts aren't necessarily unproductive, but some of the quotes in those jumbles are.
Short and precise posts have more weight than pulled pork posts.

First of all, what do you mean by 'pulled pork'? More than one person is confused about that phrase right now.
Secondly, I'm saying that accusing me of not doing anything isn't going to do much on its own, and you haven't backed it up yet (inb4 pre-post edit because you did back it up)

[tn5421]

TBH Strawman has saved many fields of crops from predators.

[tn5421]

Randomly voting removes all of the responsibility for your vote, which is a bad thing. I would vote for Csaro here but I am not going to put someone at L-1 (Lynch minus one, one vote from being lynched) on the first page as that could cause an accidental hammer.

Everyone else basically random voted, why would you have voted for him anyways?

Okay actually I'm a little confused by this post

So you're saying you don't like RVS, but you support voting one of the 4-5 people who randomly voted? That seems random to me.

You know what I'll just let you clarify

UNVOTE: Csareo
VOTE: LlamaFluff

>Doesn't want to put a probtown at L-1
>Explains that proving use of randomness in vote is banworthy
>Explains why actually randomizing who you vote isn't the best idea
>????
>ishygddt that thar is scum

Just no. I don't follow your logic at all. I suggest you come up with a better explanation than "Explaining things is scummy" because that's his job as IC and you

should feel bad

.

[tn5421]

@TN

Not doing anything will make you suspicious because as town you should be actively figuring out who the scum is.

So the guy who has literally done nothing but throw a single vote is telling me to do things?

lel these ironies jajaja

[tn5421]

@TN

Not doing anything will make you suspicious because as town you should be actively figuring out who the scum is.

I'm having trouble.................................. where are your scum hunting posts?

No one has had much of a chance to be productive.

That's not a free pass to do nothing.

[tn5421]

@TN

Not doing anything will make you suspicious because as town you should be actively figuring out who the scum is.

So the guy who has literally done nothing but throw a single vote is telling me to do things?

lel these ironies jajaja

Welcome to the 40 watt club.
UNVOTE: llama
VOTE: beeboy
I will remove my vote as soon as he responds to our posts.

I don't know if I like the way you're trying to link us together.

(buddying)

I-I'm not ready to commit to a relationship right now...

[tn5421]

I'm just not ready for that kind of attachment. Flip a scum and we'll talk.

[tn5421]

I'm just not ready for that kind of attachment. Flip a scum and we'll talk.

Why did you think I was trying to buddy?

@TN

Not doing anything will make you suspicious because as town you should be actively figuring out who the scum is.

So the guy who has literally done nothing but throw a single vote is telling me to do things?

lel these ironies jajaja

Welcome to the 40 watt club.
UNVOTE: llama
VOTE: beeboy

I will remove my vote as soon as he responds to

our

posts.

[tn5421]

@beeboy: How has llama contradicted himself?

[tn5421]

Csareo: 'we' style pronouns that imply plurality are not acceptable.

[tn5421]

Also, csareo, your theory is flawed. Scum want to force a townbloc as early as possible so they can include themselves in it and you being interested in doing so this early in the game is somewhat alarming.

To answer your actual question, I don't think beeboy has produced a single iota of unique content as of this post.

[tn5421]

[quote="In post 17
But yes, I really dislike RVS because it cuts into valuable scumhunting time. Ending it early is great.

Confused on on why he doesn't like RVS as it cuts into valueable scumhunting time while RVS is needed to help you figure out who the scum is.

The only purpose of RVS is to get the action flowing as fast as possible into actual scumhunting.

[tn5421]

The only purpose of RVS is to get the action flowing as fast as possible into actual scumhunting.

I felt like he was trying to rush it to get us to mislynch someone

You were the first one to say 'lol wagon (votes for same person llama is voting for)'

[tn5421]

Also, csareo, your theory is flawed. Scum want to force a townbloc as early as possible so they can include themselves in it and you being interested in doing so this early in the game is somewhat alarming.

To answer your actual question, I don't think beeboy has produced a single iota of unique content as of this post.

The theory is legit. Newbie scum, given this is a newbie game,will try to tag along on lynches.
They use the scum huntings of others to do it. Although a case can be made for not underestimating your opponents.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=On_Townblocs

If a townbloc forms, it will form. It might take more time than you would prefer, but it'll happen without interference if you let it.

nversely, the best way to organize a townbloc as scum is to make sure it's formed, preferably early. The earlier a townbloc is formed, the more likely it is scum have infiltrated it, and ALSO the easier it is to break.

[tn5421]

Protip: I'm not an alt.

[tn5421]

Protip: I'm not an alt.

Exactly what an alt would say

Because I fabricated 15 years of my personal history using the internet for the sake of an alt for a site that hadn't been created when i first started using the net.

pls

~~~~

@LlamaFluff: I occasionally post day 1 readlists or replace-in gut-reads as a list.

But in general, if you're participating then you shouldn't have to.

EpicMafia needs readlists because the action generally happens too fast to actually do anything with reactions.

[tn5421]

You people sicken me
We use them a lot where bullish plays.

I still don't have one fucking clue how a list helps scum 0_0

Well my mafia experience is rather limited to off topic of another forum. What can I say it never occured.

From what I gathered from llahma post. It helps mafia optimise their kill by making it easier to know where everyone stands thus killing those that will be

less

more

of a problem to them.

FTFY

also: *pokes shiro's forehead*

[tn5421]

My gut reaction to 155 is that he is possible scum trying to push a lynch by bringing up talking points and voting the most acceptable wagon.

[tn5421]

Let's try not to all mysteriously stop posting at once, okay?

[tn5421]

Oh man, I'm not sure if I should vote Csareo or beeboy first, they both feel like scum to me.

[tn5421]

Quickhammering is only slightly less scummy than claiming scum

[tn5421]

Quickhammering is only slightly less scummy than claiming scum

It isn't a quickhammer. I specifically said that "no one hammers after". The only person who would, is probably scum.
Is it slightly suspicious that she withdrew her vote at L-1?

No, that's why nobody will do it, l2read

[tn5421]

Why does him replacing let him off the hook?

I don't know why you should leave me alive.

I haven't read the game yet so you'll have to wait for reads.

My background? Well, I have some bicycles behind me. If you mean my experience I've been in a lot of games and prefer playing town to playing scum.

If he scumslipped so hard why was this slot even available for replace? Why not lynched?

Because the probabilities are pretty high for VI instead of scum.

[tn5421]

Alright, I've picked a side :3

VOTE: Csareo

Someone get DrCirno to teach a math class.

[tn5421]

Someone get DrCirno to teach a math class.

[tn5421]

Someone get DrCirno to teach a math class.

Spoiler:

integral(1/sqrt(16-x^2))dx



using trig substitution

sin(-)=x/4
4sin(-)=x

sqrt(4^2-x^2)=4cos(-)

dx = d/dx(x)
dx = d/dx(4sin(-))
dx = 4cos(-)d(-)

substitute to original equation:

integral((1/4cos(-))(4cos(-)d(-)))
= integral (1 d(-))

integrate it and you get (-)+C.

now since sin(-)=x/4
(-) = arcsin(x/4)

therefore (-)+C = arcsin(x/4)+C

...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wFDWP5JwSM

[tn5421]

I'm not actually scum though cirno, sadly enough.

[tn5421]

(Also, that promised case miiiight not come tonight. I kinda feel lazy atm and it doesn't hurt anyone to see my case being posted a day later :3)

I don't mind waiting as long as you don't mind interacting with me post-case.

[tn5421]

@Llama: I was also considering voting for beeboy, but I'm getting fairly strong town vibes from NS :: 195, 213, 224 make me think he is unlikely to be scum.

[tn5421]

@Llama: I was also considering voting for beeboy, but I'm getting fairly strong town vibes from NS :: 195, 213, 224 make me think he is unlikely to be scum.

Uh-huh.
What made you think that you only had an option to vote beeboy or Czareo?

As of 185, I felt that they were both suspicious, but unlikely to be scum together (not that I said that at the time)

notscience replaced in and is doing town things which make me unlikely to vote his slot. Meanwhile, Csareo is continuing to make me suspicious of his motives.

[tn5421]

You promised a case. Make your case.

He's very willing to speak his mind and tell people why their cases are bad; thats town to me.
Beeboy was a VI read to me, null alignment.

I started to coast around it because Csareo kept making weird posts and I started feeling his posts were coming from a scum mindset.

[tn5421]

@TGS: It's his attitude towards the game that makes me think he is town.

[tn5421]

I will say a couple of things now though.
1. Drcirno, why are you so focused on TN5?
2. TN5, drcirno is making a lot of sense. I'll elaborate more later, but you have taken one of the top scum reads.
3. Llama, do you seriously expect us to believe that sole focus on me is scum hunting?

Like this isn't a super transparent omgus.

Put SOME effort into it, mister scum.

[tn5421]

You also lied. You were supposed to post a case on me today and have not done so.

[tn5421]

inb4 someone misuses amished tell

[tn5421]

Someone really should nominate notscience for his willingness to replace people.

[tn5421]

I just have a general null-ish read on him, but have a bit of a hesitance as it seems just about everyone (with the exception of IV who is a great scum pick ironically) gets tons of town points if he is scum. Almost one of those situations where I have a slight town read because I just don't see him fitting anywhere as scum.

I've been thinking TN-IV team for a while but IV part is mostly due to PoE for me. Also, objectively speaking, I don't see a lot who would get "tons of townpoints" if tn flip scum. I see the max of, like, 3 people getting them. Also it's too early to say that tn doesn't fit anywhere as scum. IV hasn't posted yet.

I would be willing to already write off at least four as "prob town" with tn-scum flip.

Who would be most suspicious to you "if" I flip town?

~~~~

Also I think beeboy slot is town based on how people jumped on him.
The kickstarter for these whole beeboy business was "hypocrisy = scum", which is not even a correct tell AND one of those "scumtells" that scum LOVES to abuse. Also, I see beeboy's "hypocrisy" fairly town because the way he did it looked like he did that without any self-consciousness of what he's doing, which is what Town usually does. In fact, before llama came up with that case on czareo, a lot of people was focused on beeboy's replace-out (probably still are), which is a second red-flag. In fact, people are so focused on that that they are letting the actual scum, like tn, slip under the radar.

VOTE: tn5421

*sells a fruit to notscience*

Wait while eating that until I go home so I can get my case up on tn.
IV is a PoE of "everyone else is pretty tooooooown" though.

Not really, no.
It's a common trait for newbs to not use their votes frequently because they don't know how to use their votes.
Also, I saw that vote a natural "you see,

I'm reading him as town but if you really need to pressure him, here you go" vote

.
His unvote was pretty natural as well for now that the "competent" player replaced in, he unvotes because he doesn't see the need to pressure that slot anymore.

@DC - Is you entire case on tn based on something he said on one of the first couple of pages?

I just realized that this is directed to me.

Not at all.

Also, can you call me something other than "DC"? No one ever called me as DC before and it took me a while to realize that DC was directed to me.

And your reason for Czareo-scum is seriously lacking. I just re-scanned your ISO to see if I'm missing anything but nope.
And in the case of beeboy, you were on him since very early stage of the game but not once you voted him. And then you started to coast around it.

And that's what scum do.

Cheer on the wagon and dance around it so that you don't take the flak when the lynch and flip happens.
And which part of notscience's posts ring you town? I don't see anything from notscience that would make me want to call him town. All of my townread on that slot comes from beeboy.

My gut reaction to 155 is that he is possible scum trying to push a lynch by bringing up talking points and voting the most acceptable wagon.

And this post suck, btw.

Indirectly calling someone scum for calling you scum when you never even mentioned him before.

This is not a town reaction when being attacked.

Hey, by writing this, I basically neatly summarized my case on him without walling. Nice!

Also cases are scummy anyway

Your sudden disinterest in the game after notscience replaced into the slot you were pushing so hard, when you've been one of the top posters up until now, also is strange to me.

Actually this is nothing strange.

1. Drcirno, why are you so focused on TN5?

Because he is scum

and I intend to let anyone else get lynched today >:3

TGS or TN5 have done little to actually show why they think I'm scum.

Hey, I have a fun activity for you.

Compare TGS's process of eventually voting you and TN5's process of eventually voting you.

And get back to me.
Trust me, it's gonna be short, fun, and meaningful.

JAJAJA "compare different people and wonder why they're different" And don't talk down to people like that, it makes you look like a bitch.

Cirno you're tempting me so hard to start fucking with your read on me

Allright, "obvtown".

Why are you voting llama and not tn right now?

Controlling the votes of others is scummy, stop trying to do so.

I'm not big on defending myself. The more I do it the more people scum read me.
I want to scum hunt, so please let me scum hunt.

It's ok. There's a first time for everything :3

Such as you being wrong about me.

I don't have the same personality as you. Your theory resides on me reacting and being motivated in the same manner you do. It is a personal preference. I stopped posting on another game as well.

There's having a different personality, but suddenly losing interest in somebody you were pushing a lynch on so hard is totally self-contradictory.

How would you feel when the wagon you were pushing for with your dear life dispersed all of the sudden just because some

shoddy replacement

replaced the slot?

Stop being so subjective then?

Let's compare you and tn for example, then.

What was your action towards beeboy? You thought he was bad town. However, you lend your vote on that wagon for a sake of pressuring beeboy. You have your stance, clear action, etc. I used the term "agree and follow" because I see Csareo as a main pusher of that wagon.

But how about tn?
During the early pressure of beeboy, tn joins in and say stuff like "lol hypocrite". Ok. Then what does he do? Basically nothing. He just coasts. Later, he mention that he sees beeboy scummy. What does he do about it? Nothing.

Do you see the difference now?

So someone voting a person they believe is town is less scummy than voting for someone you think is scum? Good to know.

Scum won't outright bus without a reason you know.
Scum bus when they think their partner is a lost cause and want to scrap some few free townpoints while facing the unavoidable.

Please refrain from posting things like this about theory, just link the related article instead.

Conclusion: Bad Town/Possible Scum

[tn5421]

Also, my scumreads atm are tn and IV.

And I think I'm spot-on.

I wonder how you're going to back that up when I flip town.

[tn5421]

Scum need to post at little actual opinion / information as possible, after all.

[tn5421]

I've not pushed someone to L-1, either.

Post an actual case, if you've actually got one.

[tn5421]

Post an actual case, if you've actually got one.

I can fap to that, good job.

[tn5421]

You could tell me what you don't like about my points you know

Or you could put them all in one place so they can be easily torn apart the moment day 2 starts, if not before you can convince someone to derphammer.

[tn5421]

Cirno: I'm making an informative post now, hold tight ok?

[tn5421]

And your reason for Czareo-scum is seriously lacking. I just re-scanned your ISO to see if I'm missing anything but nope.
And in the case of beeboy, you were on him since very early stage of the game but not once you voted him. And then you started to coast around it. And that's what scum do^[1]. Cheer on the wagon and dance around it so that you don't take the flak when the lynch and flip happens.
And which part of notscience's posts ring you town? I don't see anything from notscience that would make me want to call him town. All of my townread on that slot comes from beeboy.^[2]

My gut reaction to 155 is that he is possible scum trying to push a lynch by bringing up talking points and voting the most acceptable wagon.

And this post suck, btw.^[3]
Indirectly calling someone scum for calling you scum when you never even mentioned him before.
This is not a town reaction when being attacked.^[4]

Hey, by writing this, I basically neatly summarized my case on him without walling. Nice!

Also cases are scummy anyway

^[5]

Yes I lied. I posted them yesterday.

You promised a case. Make your case.

He's very willing to speak his mind and tell people why their cases are bad; thats town to me.

Beeboy was a VI read to me, null alignment.

^[6]

I started to coast around it because Csareo kept making weird posts and I started feeling his posts were coming from a scum mindset.^[7]

Oh man, I'm not sure if I should vote Csareo or

beeboy

first, they

both feel like scum

to me.

I

started to coast

around it

because Csareo kept making weird posts and I started feeling his posts were coming from a scum mindset.

I also posted an addendum today.^[8]

1: We have different ideas about what scum do and don't do in situations. I don't think it was very scummy after all.

2: I have answered this previously.......wait, no, I simply quoted it. Huh? With my new shiny

meta

(See note below) I'm now almost certain that beeboy was just a VI. He seems to act similarly regardless of alignment. (WARNING: CHAT META IN FORUM MODE)

3: When I said it was a gut reaction post, I meant it. I saw a post, thought "hmm that looks scummy" and posted in less than a minute. Would you rather me lurk until my name is mentioned?

4: Reference my response to #1 please. We have different ideas about what is town-motivated and what is scum-motivated. This also wasn't a response to being scumread; it was something different entirely. (See response #3)

5: I assume this is a joke, but I'd like to point out my disagreement with anyone sheeping Chamber in this manner. Cases are only scummy when they are made up of fake-content like fluff, highly selective quoting, and other bad things.

6: See my note and my response #2.

7: I was being sarcastic and used some of the language you poked at me with, primarily 'coast'.

8: Where would that addendum be?

Note: I have since aquired some chat meta on beeboy (he's from the same community as me, go figure) that indicates he is in fact just that stupid. The number of times he has near-purposely hammered incorrectly at lylo.....
Let's not talk about it anymore.

@DrCirno: I'm more than willing to answer any further questions you have, just point them at me like I'm pointing this line at you.

[tn5421]

I was about to tear down #459 to pieces until I realized that I missed 197 and even though I'm reluctant to say this, but honestly that connects a lot of missing links from his trajectory for one of my major points was that he changes his reads based on the flow. Point conceded.

Don't worry. I'm not upset, mistakes happen.


The chain went something like this:

Oh man, I'm not sure if I should vote Csareo or beeboy first, they both feel like scum to me.

Internal Commentary: I think they're both scummy, but find it unlikely that they are scum together. (I really should probably have posted this, it would have saved a lot of trouble.)

Why does him replacing let him off the hook?

I don't know why you should leave me alive.

I haven't read the game yet so you'll have to wait for reads.

My background? Well, I have some bicycles behind me. If you mean my experience I've been in a lot of games and prefer playing town to playing scum.

If he scumslipped so hard why was this slot even available for replace? Why not lynched?

Because the probabilities are pretty high for VI instead of scum.

Internal Commentary: This is where I decided that beeboy was probably just a VI rather than scum, which combined with my townread on notscience makes him wholly ineligible.

Alright, I've picked a side :3

VOTE: Csareo

Someone get DrCirno to teach a math class.

Internal Commentary:
Beeboy is scummy. Csareo is scummy.
Probably not scum together. <- (this is where picking sides comes from)
Beeboy is mostly cleared by replacement.
Therefore, strongest scumread and vote is Csareo.

Pre-Post Edit: IRC Mafia. The community is Osu!, a rhythm game where you click circles on a screen.

[tn5421]

How is anyone townreading me

what have I done remotely town in this game

Only scum should be trying to look town.

[tn5421]

I figure I should get this out before you derplynch me, but scum in newbie games generally try to push a lynch on the SEs and nightkill the IC

@notscience, bullish: Do you guys have any concerns about me that I haven't answered already?
@DrCirno: Awaiting reply from you still.
@TGS: Re-read and bring your concerns to my attention and I'll address them.


InnocentVillager isn't able to be on this weekend. Here is a quote of him with him detailing availability:

Phone posting atm because actual wifi is down

@mod V/LA until Tuesday

I have literally zero time tomorrow (14 hour shift) and Saturday (3 different things one after the other) and Sunday/Monday will be extremely limited time. Sorry.

@Anyone I didn't specifically mention already: What are your thoughts on the current events of this game. What do you think of my wagon (especially shiro & csareo, who aren't voting)

[tn5421]

1: Way to ignore the main point.
2: So basically you're disregarding it because you feel like it, not for a valid reason?
3: How about if I question the dedication you're putting into this mislynch?
4: I would say that you are either lying to me or lying to yourself.
5: I assumed as much.
6: I'm aware, that response was more for the towns benefit than yours.
7: If you can't differentiate seriousness and sarcasm, you're going to have a bad time here.
8: So is it appropriate to say that you're pushing my lynch since you don't like me rather than actually having a scumread on me? "I dont like his posts" being the main thing that jumps out at me.

[tn5421]

@notscience, bullish: Do you guys have any concerns about me that I haven't answered already?
...

Let me quote one specific response of yours. Context excluded on purpose; just the post.

Who would be most suspicious to you "if" I flip town?

JAJAJA "compare different people and wonder why they're different" And don't talk down to people like that, it makes you look like a bitch.

Controlling the votes of others is scummy, stop trying to do so.

Such as you being wrong about me.

Stop being so subjective then?

So someone voting a person they believe is town is less scummy than voting for someone you think is scum? Good to know.

Please refrain from posting things like this about theory, just link the related article instead.

Conclusion: Bad Town/Possible Scum

Is this not the biggest tree of condescension, name-calling, sarcasm, rhetorical dissing, and OMGUS or what?

So, no concerns. You're scum flailing hard.

I wonder how you're going to defend that statement when I flip town.

Also, statistically the first person to point out that someone is flailing is more likely to be scum than the person they accuse of flailing:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Flailing

Here are some choice quotes from that article.

The implications of this for scumhunting aren't clear. Certainly scum tends to flail more than town, though not as much as some may expect. Indeed, the data

suggests it is actually more scummy to call someone out on flailing

than to flail oneself.

" 'X is flailing' is quite a useful thing to acknowledge in thread,

even tho it's not per se, I don't think, an argument that I'd use to demonstrate that someone is scum

[tn5421]

Would it be correct to say that you want to kill me based on how I write rather than you actually believing me to be scum?

[tn5421]

Here is the data as calculated by Psyche (Additional reference for 480:

Group	Scum rate	Improvement
All players	25.76%	—
Players identified as flailing	28.71%	11.5%
Players identified as flailing by town	34.92%	35.6%
Players accusing others of flailing	34.65%	34.5%
Players accusing town of flailing	42.25%	64.0%

[tn5421]

I think you're conflating writing style with post content.

Writing style can range from what I'm writing now, to...

>postin liek dis
>lolscum
/sarcasm

[tn5421]

/I want to play

You aren't supposed to post in random ongoing games like this. Please send a private message to Llama and he can explain how to sign up for a game. You will be able to see him fairly easily; his name is green, unlike our blue names.

[tn5421]

Unless you replaced in, in which case welcome.

[tn5421]

TGS: It's suspicious, but it's not enough for me to vote him. I'm well aware that the article in question isn't exactly conclusive.

[tn5421]

notscience why do you favor religion over science?

[tn5421]

That's why I said "scum" before "flailing."

I don't have to defend a statement that comes from town.

Would it be correct to say that you want to kill me based on how I write rather than you actually believing me to be scum?

This is forum mafia.

Writing is the only way to read someone. If I don't lynch you for how you write

,

then what do I lynch you for?

I think you're conflating writing style with post content.

Writing style can range from what I'm writing now, to...

>postin liek dis
>lolscum
/sarcasm

I think it was reasonable to believe this, since you essentially said it yourself.

I think you're conflating writing style with post content.

I am

scum reading you for your content

and your way of writing. I am not scum reading you for acting like you always have. Don't distort my motives.

I didn't have to distort your motives, you did a pretty good job of that on your own.

[tn5421]

The extension would be much appreciated. I'm only on page 10 so far. And I will probably need to read it twice.
I should introduce myself. Second game of mafia I've played online. My last game had TN5421 in it and it was very short. I've read through a couple others on another site. I mainly play live games which are very different.
I'm finding the person I'm replacing is very overwhelming. Looks like it's going to be a good game though.

Newbie 1508, perfect win for town as my scumpartner gave up and I didn't do as good of a job hiding myself as I should. Modded by AGar, link here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=56793

[tn5421]

Well, beeboy literally started talking about an ongoing game on IRC, so there's that.

You can look for yourself; here is his profile on my homesite:
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/search.php?auth ... 0&sr=posts

[tn5421]

@Fluminator:

You imply that playing safe isn't very townish behavior, but considered me town during the time I was doing so. Am I reading that right or am I assuming too much?

I think DrCirno might simply be misguided town; at least he gave decent reasons for voting me.

Things I'm interested in your perspective on:

Bullish in general
Opinion of InnocentVillager
How do you feel about replacing in for Csareo? What would you have done differently at certain parts of the game if you were here from the start?

[tn5421]

The context:

TGS seemed to be playing a very safe game at the start and didn't stick out. Will need to reread his posts.
Ditto with Shiro.

In this context, it means "The same can be said for".
It is a way to not have to repeat a sentence verbatim, except for a different subject.

Also: English sucks.

[tn5421]

TGS seemed to be playing a very safe game at the start and didn't stick out. Will need to reread his posts.
Shiro seemed to be playing a very safe game at the start and didn't stick out. Will need to reread his posts.

I think that should make more sense. Using "Ditto" avoids having to do crap like this.

[tn5421]

No, I'm a native speaker and this language is difficult even for us.

[tn5421]

Notscience's funny trolling has removed the pressure off himself. No one else is voting for him now. I don't know how that worked so well.

notscience is the premier swiss army knife.

And by that I mean he replaces into games faster than most of us sign up for them.

[tn5421]

The phrase I was looking for was Universal Backup.

[tn5421]

I'm worried about how blatantly Llama is trying to take pressure off of my wagon.

That being said, I'm willing to lynch {NS, Bullish, IV} today.

[tn5421]

Oh, I forgot that I'm still voting you. Sorry flum.

VOTE: Bullish

[tn5421]

TGS:

It's suspicious, but it's not enough for me to vote him.

I'm well aware that the article in question isn't exactly conclusive.

What exactly changed your mind, TN?

Our collective inconclusiveness is going to cause a nolynch.
I still don't think Bullish is the best vote but I am willing to vote him to ward off a no-lynch.

It's like having bad and worse as options and picking bad.

[tn5421]

Fluminator has been very town since he replaced in.

[tn5421]

Ok, I read through it all. It was a little overwhelming but it helped knowing Csareo's alignment. Don't worry about pressuring me.
I find it strange Csareo stopped posting. I don't think it was because he was under pressure. His personality doesn't seem the type.

Initial gut feels.
TN5 came across as town to me at the start. After the exchange between him and DrCirno he looks a bit more suspicious, mainly because DrCirno seems town to me.
TGS seemed to be playing a very safe game at the start and didn't stick out. Will need to reread his posts.
Ditto with Shiro.
Llamafluff is a little suspicious to me probably because he's targeting Csareo and mentioned being fine with lynching DrCirno. I will reread his reasons.
Beeboy seemed suspicious to me at the start. I think it was TN that mentioned he had meta that indicated he was an idiot? Could you expand on that? Not sure what notscience is doing, but whatever it is, it seems to be working.
No opinion on Bullish yet.

Things I plan to do next:
Re-read the cases on Csario and see if they are well reasoned or if the people making them are just basing it off his abrasiveness.
Study the case on TN5.
Reread Bullish's posts.

If you ask me questions about what my opinion is on certain things, I'll try to respond quickly.

~~~~

@Fluminator:

You imply that playing safe isn't very townish behavior, but considered me town during the time I was doing so. Am I reading that right or am I assuming too much?

I think DrCirno might simply be misguided town; at least he gave decent reasons for voting me.

Things I'm interested in your perspective on:

Bullish in general
Opinion of InnocentVillager
How do you feel about replacing in for Csareo? What would you have done differently at certain parts of the game if you were here from the start?

I did kind of imply that. When playing safe it's harder to contradict yourself, something townies don't have to worry about as much. I've started to re-read it though and find TGS is in the action a lot more than I thought. I got town vibes from you at the start because you were posting a lot of helpful things and seemed to genuinely be suspicious of people.

InnocentVillager's case against Llama didn't make a lot of sense to me, but doesn't make me suspicious. That early in the game, all cases are probably pretty forced. I think he's lurking because of time issues. Null read.

Replacing Csareo is very interesting. He didn't do that many bad things I found. I definitely wouldn't have attacked Beeboy as hard as he did. I also disagreed with him voting Llama because of a policy.

I can't believe what I'm hearing. Why is he an IC, giving the absolute worse advice I heard in mafia.
The only people opposed to reads lists are scum, because they know it brings attention on them.

UNVOTE: Beeboy
VOTE: llama

I'm not going to pretend that this is anything less than a policy lynch.

I don't see how policy lynches are at all good to do.

Ah, so you disagree with my theory, so I must be scum.

Vote Csareo

That was easy, gut read justified. Will lay this out a whole lot more tomorrow (or Saturday), but hiding behind a lynch based on theoretical differences is a major tell. If you don't agree with theory fine, but you don't lynch based on a theoretical difference. As I have said, I completely refuse to lie about theory as an IC. I fully believe that lists are horrible for town. When I am scum and see them, I am thrilled because anything that isn't crystal clear, or anyone who isn't that great about putting out all of their leaning one way or another read just gave me what I need. I no longer have to wonder if player X that I think should be being read as town is actually read as town by everyone else. If someone is picking up a consensus townish read I could do something about it.

Lists are bad. Period. Every time I have seen them as scum it gave me a bit of information that I was missing before or something like that. Every time I have seen them as town, it rarely gave me anything workable. Scum benefit from them far more.

I don't find voting for Csareo here any better. You basically just voted for him because he is doing a policy lynch and is a bit of a tool. I'll respond to the arguments on Csareo being scum soon.

I reread Bullish's posts and I lean town. He's mainly been posting about his suspicions on TN and Bee, and defending Csareo. When I know he is defending someone innocent it makes him look better. I know mafia can do that, but he brought in good meta information that easily would have been missed by everyone else.

~~~~

Im really happy leaving my vote on Csareo here. Will break this one down a bit.

1) His "random" vote is still bad. For someone who seems to always want information and accountability and hates RVS, it even makes less sense. It makes zero accountability for what is going on and prolongs RVS. Even a "vote because of joke" comes from a conscious choice.

2) The attack on Bullish for being online but not voting. People do this all the time. I will log on to make sure there is nothing critical happening for List Mod stuff. I will log on and start reading then have something come up in life. Or try to get a post done while making dinner and run out of time. Or do some Mafia Discussion reading. In this situation its not a tell. If it was near a deadline and they logged on then didn't cast a vote to prevent a no lynch, then yes, I can see it being scummy. Here? No.

3) His votes tend to lack some conviction. He voted bee early and outright said he would remove his vote after a response. He voted me due to theory disagreement. He went back to voting bee and asking for just pressure votes. He is not really making too many cases, and his one on bee has at least one really bad point (saying his reads agree with consensus - are you supposed to change your reads to be unique?).

4) His vote on TGS basically is bullying, and in a very scummy way. First lets get one thing clear - its not a pressure vote if you say its a pressure vote. Its a pressure vote when you DONT say it is (note you should never pressure vote a town read but I think we know that). On top of that, you actually say "gut says Bullish is scum" and then vote TGS for voting Bullish. At best, you are being unproductive and anti-town.

Then we have this one which REALLY bugs me and may be a slip:

I've given my reasoning for getting off the wagon for now. If you find it suspicious, fine. Why are you so sure that nobody's going to hammer him, Csareo?

Because if they do, then we'll hammer them tommorow.
If someone did, they would instantly be tagged as scum.

Why do you say this if you think Bee is scum? The assumption that we quicklynch the player who hammered without a claim relies of the lynched player being town. All of your posts regarding the quicklynch possibility are made from the mindset that bee, who you are trying to get lynched, is town.

Will have more stuff later. For now lets get some wagons moving.

1) I find this very weak.
2) I agree Csareo's accusation was weak, but knowing his personality it was just to get Bullish to post faster. He liked applying pressure. That accusation helped town in the end because it generated some discussion.
3) Definitely not a scumtell in my experience. I've seen many town players bounces their vote around.
4) Being a bully doesn't mean your mafia.
The last one is weak too. He said "if." I honestly don't follow your logic. He's certain Bee won't get quicklynched because it is a scumtell to quicklynch somebody.

~~~~

Okay, so quick skim through, random notes.

-Csareo's weird obsession with who's lurking is weird, especially now that he's replaced after coming under fire. It is worth noting that he hasn't logged in in three days, though, so it's not like he only stopped posting in this game. Still it's pretty hypocritical.

-something from Csareo when I asked him what a better vote from beeboy would have been.

Eh hem, okay. I was basically trying to say that beeboy chose one thing in a million to pressure. I assume that he was trying to pressure another player, and didn't already have an affirmative read, so why choose the weakest justification possible when choosing a target to pressure? It was almost as if he was scraping for a reason to vote T5.

He's kind of dancing around my question here, so that's notable I guess.

-blah blah, Llama comes in and Csareo argues with him about theory. Then he changes his icon to that "lynch beeboy" thing, which at the time struck me as so over-the-top that it must be a bus. Not as convinced of that now, but the way he switched gears and voted me as soon as I got off the wagon, saying that it was scummy, and the way he said we could just lynch anyone that hammered beeboy have me convinced that he knew beeboy's alignment.

-I really only see Llama talking about theory stuff for most of the early game, at least until getting into a big argument with Csareo... which mostly involved disagreeing on theory. I agreed with his vote on Csareo then and I do now, though. Doubt they'd both be scum.

-Csareo says he's almost positive beeboy is scum even though his vote was still on me :I

-Csareo's last bit of defending himself before he went inactive: he's still calling out people for posting in other threads (when he was doing the same thing) says nobody has posted reasons for voting him when they have, says we have to scumhunt not defend ourselves when he's pretty much stopped asking anyone any questions at this point.

One thing notable was that Csareo at one point "unvoted notscience" even though his vote was on me at the time. It seemed minor when I first saw it, but when I think about it now, it really shows that he wasn't all that concerned with where his vote was the way I would expect a townie to be.

Anyway then he unvotes, says a big post is coming, and vanishes.

So, okay. I'm comfortable going back to my original read.

UNVOTE: TN
VOTE: Fluminator

I know you just replaced into Csareo's slot, Fluminator, but this is my strongest read at the moment. Think of it as motivation to read through the thread sooner

I took out your points not related to me. In order of the quote.
-I wouldn't call his obsession with lurkers weird. Lurkers can be very annoying sometimes.
-I don't get the impression he was avoiding your question.
-Re-read what he said (quoted it in my last post). It is quite reasonable. He said that if anyone quicklynched beeboy, it would be a scumtell. I don't see the connection with how that means Csareo knew Beeboy was town.
-Csareo clearly stated his vote for llama was just a policy lynch. (Which was dumb imo). But llama than strawmans and says Csareo thinks llama is scum. He then votes Csareo based off that. Csareo clarifies again next post but llama seems to have missed it.
-No comment really.
-I do not get why Csareo stopped playing all of his games. He probably rage-quit the whole site.
-The main thing against Csareo seems to be how he hopped his vote around. Once again, I can say I have seen town players do that before. My last game here had the player Rubicon bounce his vote around all game and he was town. (And he was probably the most effective scumhunter that game.)

~~~~

These are all incredibly open townposts.

[tn5421]

If he's scum we'll be able to analyze his content and find him later because of how much he is posting.

[tn5421]

4 people with 1 vote. 2 people with 2 votes. 2 days left. wow. I would expect the mafia to be loving this.
I don't think the vote on Bullish will do much good TN. It's just making the voting even more scattered.
It seems like everyone is saying since we can't decide we could just lynch the lurker Innocent Villager. That is a bad idea. Let's make an actual decision. Or am I misreading it and people actually think he is scum?

Notscience is acting in a way similar to what I would have acted had my slot been scum so that raised my flags. And I don't think Beeboy was as dumb as you all make him out to be. And I feel like I've seen many people mention they would vote for him.
Shiro, InnocentVillager, DrCirno, we need your thoughts. Your votes aren't on anywhere very useful. (Although I feel like mine isn't either) Which people would you be okay with getting lynched?
Maybe everyone should quickly make a list of who they are okay with to get lynched? Preferably not including IV.

Scum benefit a lot more from lurking than town do.

Fluminator has been very town since he replaced in.

*Insert obligatory "I told you Csareo is town" here*

Csareo didn't act like he was town. Hence my suspicion. But I'm happy with Flum.

Nope. The only way TN's actions right now make sense to me is if he's scum trying to stall to no-lynch.

Are you prepared to back that up? I'm willing to die to prove that I'm town. Are you?

[tn5421]

I'm willing to intentionally eat a lynch

myself

in order to a: prove I'm town and b: prevent the no-lynch

[tn5421]

Ok, so are we agreeing on notscience now?

I'd like a VC before I jump around like a mexican jumping bean anymore.

[tn5421]

Ok, so the last VC isn't too far behind and I won't accidentally hammer NS.

VOTE: notscence

[tn5421]

That's an L-2 on notscience.

[tn5421]

Yeah I'm pretty comfortable with my vote tbh.

(blah blah blah still would be willing to swtich at the last minute blah)

"Yeah I don't mind scaring town into voting a bad wagon"

"blah blah switch to tn at last minute"

[tn5421]

Thanks for making me even more sure of my vote.

No prob

I think Cirno is town

I think TGS is town

I think Csareo is town

k hammer

Are you sure you're paying attention?

Csareo isn't even in the game anymore.

[tn5421]

Also that "whole lot of nothing" between me and notsci.

We

can't help it. It's just what happens when me and him meet in the game.

We

have played enough to know how to read each other from just fluffing with a great accuracy.
If you don't understand it, then oh well.

But when people asked me to explain my point, I always have been with the best of my ability. When people asked me to summarize, I always have been. So I disagree with that my play is counterproductive.

Also I'm not hammering notsci. If he need to be lynched, let others do it.

Why did you feel the need to consider yourself and notscience a group?
You're gonna look hella suspicious if NS flips scum.

[tn5421]

Fluminator,

Town Cop

, has been killed Night 1.

Day 2 has begun! With 7 people alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-09-12 17:35:00)

Shouldn't it only take 4 to make a majority out of 7? with 7/2=3.5 and all

[tn5421]

vote lamafluff

Uhm, who are you?

[tn5421]

The only person voting llamafluff yesterday was innocentvillager.

Making that the most likely person.

[tn5421]

The last time I drunkposted I got banned from an entire forum for 2 days, I don't think I'll be doing that again anytime soon.

This game just got a LOT harder.

Spoiler: setup

So the setup is either pure vanilla or Mafia Roleblocker + Town Doctor

[tn5421]

Don't they do drunk games of mafia here every once in a while? I remember that being A Thing way back when during marathon season.

Anyway, back on topic: DrCirno, still not seeing how that isn't contradictory? Like, you still said wagons on town get built fast because of scum votes, and also that you thought everyone on beeboy's wagon was town. Was something different about the beeboy wagon?

It's alright for marathons and skype mafia, since that's basically the point (especially if advertised)

But I plan to never do that again in real games.

hey......

I will read through this and try to post my thoughts today or maybe tommorow

Your slot hasn't posted anything of substance basically ever. Don't take too long.

Ugh....

reading through IV post and he seems to have not posted that much of substance. I dont know why he would do that . What worse was he flaked and left someone else to clean up the mess.

DrCinco
what made you think that LLama or Fluminator would be killed. From my experience night 1 kills are usually random or scum role fishing. I am curious about what made you think this/

I am thinking NGS is prob town. I dont see scum hammering a VT on day 1. I find that scum usually like to stay in the shadows . This means they will not be on a wagon or if they are they are usually somewhere in the middle. This seems to point to NGS being town
I just dont see NGS being naive enough to make a move like that.

I'm glad you aren't taking the easy out of lurking the game out like your predecessor.
I personally expected LLama to die since the IC is generally the player with the most experience.

[tn5421]

Ugh....

reading through IV post and he seems to have not posted that much of substance. I dont know why he would do that . What worse was he flaked and left someone else to clean up the mess.

Do I get to yell "Amished Tell!" on this post?

Spoiler: Hey DrCirno what's Amished Tell?

Amished Tell is a well-known (and surprisingly accurate) scumtell that says that the replacement of the scumslot likes to call his predecessor's posts scummy.

No, you don't get to call amished. For one, he isn't explicitly calling his predecessor scummy, and two Amished is more likely to catch town than scum.

Scummy, negatively, anti-town, bad, etc
The point is "talking something not good about one's predecessor."

No, the tell is about a replacement finding his predecessor scummy.

[tn5421]

I'm ambivalent on DrCirno.

About the only thing in this game I'm certain about is that DrCirno is walling like nobodies business.

[tn5421]

@Bullish: This is hardly a day 1 90+ page game. There's always room for more information.

Why do you seem to think that gaining more information is a scum motivated action (as I assume that's why you're suspicious of Llama)

@Llama: What makes you so certain that I'm town?

@DrCirno, 734: The word "Elimination" from PoE implies that it is rather "Final". It really depends on how you interpret the language.

[tn5421]

Llama, for one, was pretty quick to step in and say he's nearly certain that I'm town, and that's setting off a few alarms for me.

[tn5421]

He used the phrase "super confident".

sometimes i wish i could edit my posts but eh

[tn5421]

[ih-lim-uh-neyt]

verb (used with object), eliminated, eliminating.
1. to remove or get rid of, especially as being in some way undesirable

The definition of Eliminate implies that it is final and cannot be revised later.

[tn5421]

His arguments make sense to me. I for one dislike how some people use PoE.

Also, I was defending the specific argument, not the player in question.

[tn5421]

I didn't suspect Shiro at all.

[tn5421]

*pokes shiro's forehead*