Newbie 1533 - GAME OVER

[Csareo]

Ah, convenient time to come on the site.
VOTE: bluisthesky
Random.org vote. Anyways, I've played for about 2 years elsewhere.
Note: I will not share my old games, for meta reasons

[Csareo]

Please note the vote in post #5 is invalid because that player was replaced … by you.

[Csareo]

VOTE: llamafluff
Second name on the random list was llama
This has nothing to do with my disdain for IC's

[Csareo]

Let's not put ANY player at L-1 for awhile. Glad to see a 6 year experienced IC aboard the game

[Csareo]

Hi, everybody!
@Csareo, How you feeling about the wagon on you? Also, didn't you just say you disdained ICs?

I don't know what to say. A wagon is a wagon. No one ever gets lynched in a RVS wagon, unless some fool puts you at L-1.
One reason I prefer an introduction stage over an RVS stage, is because it becomes very easy for townies to be picked off.
Which is why I hate playing RVS. It doesn't stir much discussion and gives scum a lot of room to move.

On the off hand, I hardly give notice when votes are on me. It isn't up to town to defend themselves, rather than hunt scum.
If a player spends 80% of the game trying to prove his innocence, then I would policy lynch the hell out of that fool.

[Csareo]

@TGS, I didn't see your comment on disdaining IC's. I definitely am not a fan of having an extremely experienced player and 6 newbies in the same game. It makes manipulation as scum pretty easy. I also have an issue with authority. Official diagnosis, not a joke.

@Innoncentvillager, you noticed that scum tell as well? I was going to bring it up, but I'm genuinely scared of a 6 year IC. I cower at confrontation
As for the tell, I would rule it off as appealing to the voters. A townie could do it or a scum can do it.
I know a guy who often tried to appeal to people early on, and it worked quite well as town.

@LlamaFluff, please clarify what you meant, when you said (paraphrased)"I would vote for the Csar, but he is already at L-1"(Paraphrased)
I realize this is probably amounts to nothing, but in the RVS stage, you very much need to have your vote random.
It sounds like you're trying to play the "yes" man!

[Csareo]

I realize this is probably amounts to nothing, but in the RVS stage, you very much need to have your vote random.

Its a common practice to do somewhat of a "Vote X because <insert dumb/jokey reason here>" instead of going out of your way to prove that what you are doing is random. You also don't need a random vote.

Is it? Such a thing is not common practice where I play, but I'll take your word for it.

[Csareo]

@llama, where was your <insert joke>? I sensed no humor from your implied intention to vote.

[Csareo]

FOS on Bullish. He logged on for awhile yesterday (I think an hour), and didn't post. He obviously was able to log off.
Scum lurking or something came up?

[Csareo]

@IC, why does the server show people who are logged on? It seems like that would hinder mafia plays.
Can players hide themselves, or are the hidden users guests? Genuine questions for future reference.

[Csareo]

@Csaero, would you say you consider lurking scummy?

Of course. Lurking is what makes these games not fun. The ideal scum is an inactive one.

EBWOP
@Csareo I'd also like to hear what your definition of being overly defensive involves.

It is pretty self explanatory. Don't just ask questions for the sake of asking questions.

[Csareo]

FOS on Bullish. He logged on for awhile yesterday (I think an hour), and didn't post. He obviously was able to log off.
Scum lurking or something came up?

Isn't it a bit too early to call someone up for scum lurking ? It wasn't even for an extended period of time. For all we know he might have been at work or something and quickly checked how stuff goes before logging off.
If he keeps doing that for an extended period, sure I can get behind FoSing him for scum lurking but isn't it a bit soon ?

You are pretty quick to jump to conclusions aren't ya ?

I'm interested in where you draw the line between suspicion and conclusion
I have no idea why someone would log on for an hour and post nothing.
He bypassed the RVS stage here, which is anti-town.

I'm fortunately going to give Bull the benefit of the doubt.

[Csareo]

^ That's not entirely true. If someone directly quotes you, then you can't ignore you, but scum will hop on and quote anyone who makes any form of a negative assertion towards them.
What are your thoughts on InnocentVillager's interaction with Llama. Pulling Pork?

[Csareo]

Unvote
Vote: TN

A large post without adding anything to the game is odd

I saw nothing wrong with it. I think it is good to introduce yourself in that manner. The multi quoting is annoying and clutter though.
@Tn5 - Can you just respond to people without quoting please.

[Csareo]

Multi quoting is the best way to reply in my opinion xD How is it clutter ? It makes it easier to know who is being addressed and exactly what is being addressed

Multi-quoting combined with improductive posts is indeed annoying and clutter.
There are four types of mafia players.

- Scum Hunters
- Town mimics
- Idiots
- Commentators

[Csareo]

The multi-quote feature is bad, I regular quote every post and put them in order in the post editor or notepad (notepad if huge and posteditor if small)

@Csareo: If you don't like me using quotes to respond to people,

you're playing the wrong game

Mate, a lot of what you're saying can be summarized in a paragraph. Multi-quoting something that can be summarized is annoying, for me personally.
If others don't mind it, then I guess I'm in the minority. Although beeboy's vote is suspicious, and what you did isn't a scum tell.

[Csareo]

You claim my posts aren't productive, but what exactly are you doing, Csareo?

Straw Man: The downfall of man
Your posts aren't necessarily unproductive, but some of the quotes in those jumbles are.
Short and precise posts have more weight than pulled pork posts.

[Csareo]

^ That's not entirely true. If someone directly quotes you, then you can't ignore you, but scum will hop on and quote anyone who makes any form of a negative assertion towards them.
What are your thoughts on InnocentVillager's interaction with Llama. Pulling Pork?

What does pulling pork mean ? XD

Hmm well it did point the little contradiction in llahmas post. His silence afterwards is a bit off putting tbh but I wanted to let both him and llama to post again before I make any assumption.

I don't think he has been active as much as he should be, given he is under fire.
Pulling pork is just another word in Csar Reoman's glorious glossary of mafia theory, e.g, stretching out an idea or assumption farther than its merit is commonly refereed to as pulling pork.

[Csareo]

You claim my posts aren't productive, but what exactly are you doing, Csareo?

Straw Man: The downfall of man
Your posts aren't necessarily unproductive, but some of the quotes in those jumbles are.
Short and precise posts have more weight than pulled pork posts.

First of all, what do you mean by 'pulled pork'? More than one person is confused about that phrase right now.

Apparently no one here knows midwest slang

Secondly, I'm saying that accusing me of not doing anything isn't going to do much on its own, and you haven't backed it up yet (inb4 pre-post edit because you did back it up)

No one has had much of a chance to be productive.
I think that if you take what I say at face value, we may be on better terms: Try to be more precise and short in your posts, please.
A humble request.

[Csareo]

@TN

Not doing anything will make you suspicious because as town you should be actively figuring out who the scum is.

I'm having trouble.................................. where are your scum hunting posts?

[Csareo]

@TN

Not doing anything will make you suspicious because as town you should be actively figuring out who the scum is.

So the guy who has literally done nothing but throw a single vote is telling me to do things?

lel these ironies jajaja

Welcome to the 40 watt club.
UNVOTE: llama
VOTE: beeboy
I will remove my vote as soon as he responds to our posts.

[Csareo]

@TN

Not doing anything will make you suspicious because as town you should be actively figuring out who the scum is.

I'm having trouble.................................. where are your scum hunting posts?

No one has had much of a chance to be productive.

You have contradicted yourself. You originally stated that TN5 is suspicious for not scum hunting...................................................................................................................... yet you haven't either?

[Csareo]

@TN

Not doing anything will make you suspicious because as town you should be actively figuring out who the scum is.

So the guy who has literally done nothing but throw a single vote is telling me to do things?

lel these ironies jajaja

Welcome to the 40 watt club.
UNVOTE: llama
VOTE: beeboy
I will remove my vote as soon as he responds to our posts.

I don't know if I like the way you're trying to link us together.

(buddying)

I-I'm not ready to commit to a relationship right now...

Separation anxiety?
Don't think to much of it.

@beeboy, give me all your reads please.

[Csareo]

I'm just not ready for that kind of attachment. Flip a scum and we'll talk.

Why did you think I was trying to buddy?
Sometimes being nice and cooperative makes people edgy.
One thing I learned about this game, is that you are better off learning to trust others.

If everyone cooperates solidly, then scum will start to polarize themselves from the group.
I don't think I was sending signals that we should buddy up, so what exactly was that assumption founded on.
Do you prefer me acting like an ass? I can do that as well.

[Csareo]

I don't think arguing back and forth about who needs to contribute more is much help as far as actually contributing goes. Especially not three pages in. Calm down y'all. That said, I would also like to hear beeboy and innocentvillager give us more detailed reasons for their votes.

@Shiro What's your opinion on Csareo so far?

What are YOUR reads?
Didn't I ask you this earlier?

[Csareo]

I'm just not ready for that kind of attachment. Flip a scum and we'll talk.

Why did you think I was trying to buddy?

@TN

Not doing anything will make you suspicious because as town you should be actively figuring out who the scum is.

So the guy who has literally done nothing but throw a single vote is telling me to do things?

lel these ironies jajaja

Welcome to the 40 watt club.
UNVOTE: llama
VOTE: beeboy

I will remove my vote as soon as he responds to

our

posts.

Fix'd
You had quotes left unresponded to at the time.
Do you prefer I completely ignore the posts of other players?
Again, why did you think the word "our" is an implication of buddying?

[Csareo]

It was more of a way to get a reaction so I can decide whether TN was town or not which is why I waited before explaining this.

Really? I'm having trouble buying this...

TN reaction to my post gave me the impression of a town
Llama contradicted himself so I view him as scum
Teen Girl not sure leaning towards scum
Csareo seems to be town
innocentvillager hasn't said enough yet
shiro ^
Reni ^
Bullish didn't respond to activity question so I am leaning towards scum

0.5. How has he contradicted himself.
1. I also have a town read on him, because of his buddying comment.
The reaction is pretty solid for a townie, or he's a good liar.
2. Why? Give a justification.
3. Agreed, although I haven't scum read bullish.

It seems like you're agreeing with me and others a lot.
I want to see you formulate opinions of your own.

[Csareo]

@Csareo you are asking everyone for reads why not share yours?

Hold on. I'm trying to put a picture in my mind.
Give me 10 minutes.

[Csareo]

@T5, TGS - What are your thoughts on Beeboy right now? Is it just me, or is he repeating what others are saying? Could be the village idiot, inexperienced, or scum.

[Csareo]

Also, csareo, your theory is flawed. Scum want to force a townbloc as early as possible so they can include themselves in it and you being interested in doing so this early in the game is somewhat alarming.

To answer your actual question, I don't think beeboy has produced a single iota of unique content as of this post.

The theory is legit. Newbie scum, given this is a newbie game,will try to tag along on lynches.
They use the scum huntings of others to do it. Although a case can be made for not underestimating your opponents.

[Csareo]

[quote="In post 17
But yes, I really dislike RVS because it cuts into valuable scumhunting time. Ending it early is great.

Confused on on why he doesn't like RVS as it cuts into valueable scumhunting time while RVS is needed to help you figure out who the scum is.

The only purpose of RVS is to get the action flowing as fast as possible into actual scumhunting.

Which is why I prefer an introduction stage over an RVS stage.
RVS puts pressure on a a selective amount of people with a wagon on them.
Real discussion results from conversation, something that can be undertaken using a simple greeting.

Personal preference, but IMO, a more strategic play for town.

[Csareo]

Note: I don't see the contradiction, but I'm also sort of blind.

[Csareo]

@Csareo What makes you so sure scum is a newbie? Especially since almost everyone here has played a fairly decent amount of mafia before now. Also worth noting, you say you don't like RVS but you used a RNG for your vote.

Occam's Razor. We were talking about beeboy, and he is certainly a noob. I'm making a reads list now.
Be patient guy's.

[Csareo]

You were the first one to say 'lol wagon (votes for same person llama is voting for)'

It was a joke I wasn't going to follow through if it went to L-1.

It wasn't very funny. I am hearing so much BS, I am leaning towards policy lynching your scummy ass.
You never even clarified upon your scum reads, which I kindly asked you to do.
Do that ASAP.

[Csareo]

Since this game lacks flavor, I will add some. I am the Csar, and you are my subjects. Two of you seek to usurp me. The grand vizier brings his reads forward.

The Innocent Peasant, Innocentvillager

There isn't a lot to say for him. He has three posts, and they are as follows.

Im literally dying
VOTE: Csareo

Oh hi I'm an SE semi-experienced and yeah if you have questions you can ask me and stuff but we're mostly just llamafluff's backup bitches so go to him if you want to know shit

Everyone else basically random voted, why would you have voted for him anyways?

Okay actually I'm a little confused by this post

So you're saying you don't like RVS, but you support voting one of the 4-5 people who randomly voted? That seems random to me.

You know what I'll just let you clarify

UNVOTE: Csareo
VOTE: LlamaFluff

There is no definitive read either left (town) or right (scum). From what very little information I have, I think innocent is

leaning

town do to the third post ISO.
Innocent needs to come on, since a couple posts have had his name in them.

Ruling: Appeal to higher court (leaning town)

The Csar's maiden, Teen Girl Squad

Okay, so I reviewed your posts in isolation as well.

What up, nerds.

VOTE: Csareo

Let's wagon, woooo.

also i'd like to know what everybody's experience with mafia is, or like a general idea of how much you've acted as an SE or IC in newbie games for the more experienced players.

As for me, I actually joined here a long time ago (like 3 or 4 years) and played for a little bit before i made this account. and i've played a little on another forum and in real life. So i'm not totally new but it's been long enough that i figured i should start over.

I'll give you credit, this is a nice way to introduce yourself. A little to good IMO. It certainly seems like you tried to open the way into an early town blok, but this is probably just your meta. Your willingness to be a team player will likely get you to the end.

I think that's everyone in the game that's posted now? Oooh, how exciting. From the looks of everybody's answers, it seems that all of us are relatively experienced and nobody's going into this totally blind, although beeboy is the newest by a wide margin. Good to know.

@TN, Why should we be "especially" cautious about your advice?

@Reni, could you tell us a little more about the games of mafia you played on the other forum? like, in what ways are they different than how it's played here? and what do you find suspicious about Csareo and Llama?

@innocentvillager I find your vote strange. Could you elaborate on your reasoning a little?

@Bullish, who's the one you know?

@Csaero, would you say you consider lurking scummy?

Quotes like these really make me thing you're town. You haven't been doing much but scum hunting, and I'm convinced you are a productive player. This makes me think you're leaning town.

Ruling: Townish

The Royal Beekeeper, Beeboy

Unvote
Vote: TN

A large post without adding anything to the game is odd

Scum Tell 1: Third post in isolation, and you say this? Immediately after conceding that you haven't scum hunted either.
Question: Why was TN targetted? There were surely a LOT better options to pressure, if that is what you were trying to do.

It was more of a way to get a reaction so I can decide whether TN was town or not which is why I waited before explaining this.

@Csareo reads go as follows


TN reaction to my post gave me the impression of a town
Llama contradicted himself so I view him as scum
Teen Girl not sure leaning towards scum
Csareo seems to be town
innocentvillager hasn't said enough yet
shiro ^
Reni ^
Bullish didn't respond to activity question so I am leaning towards scum

Scum Tell 1: This is rehash of what others said in the last dozen posts. It sounds like you're pushing for the first lynch in site.
Scum Tell 2: You outright ignored my requests for explanations on these reads.

Ruling: Moderate Scum Read

Llama, the Grand Vizier

Not a lot to say. I think the statement that he was going to lynch me was a town slip. Here is the quote for people to analyze.

Post Post #13 (ISO) » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:02 pm

Greetings, I am your IC (Inexperience Challenged) player for this game. My name is also in green which means I am a List Mod and I take care of making sure the Open Queue runs smoothly and any problems that come up with players there get resolved. If you ever have any major in game problem, do not hesitate to PM someone in green if you think a mod is doing something they shouldn't be, someone is cheating, etc.

If you ever have any questions on theory, I will answer it truthfully. I am here to teach to an extent, but I still am here to play. I will not do anything that compromises my win condition. Just ask anything, and I will explain things as it comes up but if I am making the assumption that you know something you do not - please tell me.

Randomly voting removes all of the responsibility for your vote, which is a bad thing. I would vote for Csaro here but I am not going to put someone at L-1 (Lynch minus one, one vote from being lynched) on the first page as that could cauIn post 32, Teen Girl Squad wrote:
I think that's everyone in the game that's posted now? Oooh, how exciting. From the looks of everybody's answers, it seems that all of us are relatively experienced and nobody's going into this totally blind, although beeboy is the newest by a wide margin. Good to know.

There is to much speculation on this one sentence. It is really annoying ATM.

Ruling: Indecisive, innocent until proven guilty

The Jealous Servant, TN5

Uh, well here are my thoughts.......

You opened up with a lot of long posts, most of which seemed like fluff. Fluff is almost always scum.
I would quote it, but it is to ridicolously long. Scum fluff a lot, and I did agree with beeboy on that.
NOT with his vote.

I'm just not ready for that kind of attachment. Flip a scum and we'll talk.

I wasn't trying to buddy here, so I'm genuinely confused, but this tipped me off that he is town.
Townies will often become xenophobic with cooperation, whereas scum will openly embrace it.
Then again, I suspect the account is an alt, and he has more expierience than he's letting on.

Town Tell 2: Has been doing a lot of Scum hunting.

Ruling: Town

The Royal Masseuse, Shiro

Okay, I reviewed her posts in isolation. All 5 of her posts were directed at me. Why am I coming under attack?
There were to many people online for such short sighted scum hunting, but I have a gut feeling that shiro is town.
I suspect that is here gameplay style.

Ruling: Gut Town

TL;DR

Bullish: Leaning Scum
Innocent: Leaning Town
Shiro: Gut Town
TN5: Townish
Beeboy: Moderate Scum
Llama: ???Indecisive???
Teengirlsquad: Townish

[Csareo]

Okay, there are all my thoughts.
A pretty good summary of the game, if anything.
I will be back in a couple hours. Clarification will wait.
I'm going to little italy now, but wont be returning here for awhile.

[Csareo]

You're right about me not being scum, but this isn't my first game.
I do this as scum as well, but unfortunately, fate never selects me as scum.
The Csar is always town. It may be supernatural, I do not know, but it certainly is unusual.

To the real question though, how do emoticons indicate nervousness?
I have never heard that before.

[Csareo]

Eh hem, okay. I was basically trying to say that beeboy chose one thing in a million to pressure. I assume that he was trying to pressure another player, and didn't already have an affirmative read, so why choose the weakest justification possible when choosing a target to pressure? It was almost as if he was scraping for a reason to vote T5.

[Csareo]

Bullish didn't respond to activity question so I am leaning towards scum

What activity question?

You logged on yesterday and didn't post.

[Csareo]

Protip: I'm not an alt.

Exactly what an alt would say

[Csareo]

Bullish didn't respond to activity question so I am leaning towards scum

What activity question?

You logged on yesterday and didn't post.

So what's the question?

Post #23, what were you doing?
I'm particularly suspicious of you.
For some reason you always flip scum.

[Csareo]

Csareo is still really setting off lots of gut bells for me. He really is not doing a ton for the volume of posts he is making. Side note can we please stop making read lists? Those are really useful for scum as they have a good idea of where everyone stands which allows them to optimize actions.

More coming later. Workload will lighten up at the end of this week either way so Saturday should be a very good catchup day.

Bullshit! Read lists are always productive. They allow for transparency in views, while also giving information to townies, furthering scum hunting.
A SE brought this up in another game, but the IC disagreed. I think the IC had the more convincing case.
Saying read lists of unproductive is basically telling scum hunters to shove it and shut up.

[Csareo]

PEedit: are

[Csareo]

I really want to affirm my vote on llama now, but bullish seems scummy to me.
Regardless, an IC shouldn't say that. I call BS that he wont teach us bad theory.
Only scum would call read lists as anti-town.

I'm literally baffled that an IC would state something like this.
The only thing that is keeping my vote off of llama is my FOS on beeboy.

[Csareo]

I really want to affirm my vote on llama now, but bullish seems scummy to me.

Regardless, an IC shouldn't say that. I call BS that he wont teach us bad theory.
Only scum would call read lists as anti-town.

I'm literally baffled that an IC would state something like this.

The only thing that is keeping my vote off of llama is my FOS on beeboy.

What? I and and beeboy aren't a hydra..

I meant to say beeboy. Forgive me, it is late.

[Csareo]

@Bullism, YHO on beeboy. What are your thoughts on the guy?

[Csareo]

Lol, sorry.
My profile picture has been changed to a belgian wolf buttfucking a rooster.
Enjoy!

[Csareo]

If you are playing well, anyone should be able to figure out your general read on any slot just by what you say.

Read lists aren't really about "X is Y" rather than compiling information for townies, and giving them justifications for players.

If you cant tell that, you are not posting enough or with enough detail.

Why is this any different than a read list? A read list is the perfect summary, combining information, reference, and detail.

Constantly giving all of this gives scum all the information they otherwise need to dig for at night.

Okay, reads lists are trying to find out affilation. Are you confusing reads lists and claims lists?
Read lists don't help scum at all. They already know who is town and who is mafia. They are an informed minority.
Analyzing behavior is a must.

Just giving out all of your reads constantly is a poor move theoretically. Its actually a very common stance on the site and will likely have at least one person argue against it in any game if it starts happening.

That is because it is a GOOD starategy. All you are doing is summarizing a players behavior. How does that help scum?
If everyone shared their reads, we would single out scum. Townies need information to make a decision.
A reads list is the perfect summary of information, behavior, and analysis for townies.

You don't "stop scumhunting" but you don't do scum's job for them. When someone is caught up and active, you should know if they think a player is generally scum or town, and also know their strongest reads. Its like playing poker and always showing one of your cards.

[/quote]
Absolutely false! Scum hate reads lists. It is the number ONE tool for catching scum. Asking a mafia member to put his reads on the table proves quickly how much he's been scum hunting.
Also, a reads list stirs lots of discussion, and usually scum will reveal their true colors in light of a scum/town read on them.

Summary: Absolute bullshit. For an IC, you are reall giving bad advice. Read lists don't help scum in the slightest. They don't care about other players behavior, as they already know those players are town. Read lists are very one sided. They serve to help town, but are useless to scum. You made an assertion that read lists help scum, but I'm calling BS. Prove it.

[Csareo]

I can't believe what I'm hearing. Why is he an IC, giving the absolute worse advice I heard in mafia.
The only people opposed to reads lists are scum, because they know it brings attention on them.

UNVOTE: Beeboy
VOTE: llama

I'm not going to pretend that this is anything less than a policy lynch.

[Csareo]

Note: Unfortunately. Animal sex is against the sites rules, so there's that.
I'm taking note that mafiascums official stance is pro bi-animal intercourse prohibition.

[Csareo]

Ah, so you disagree with my theory, so I must be scum.

Why are you straw manning? I NEVER said you were scum. I stated it was nothing more than a policy lynch, although comments like these do make me think you're scum.

That was easy, gut read justified. Will lay this out a whole lot more tomorrow (or Saturday), but hiding behind a lynch based on theoretical differences is a major tell.

A bad IC, which is exactly what you are ATM, is as dangerous as two scummies. Feeding newbies bad information is the bane of mafia.

If you don't agree with theory fine, but you don't lynch based on a theoretical difference. As I have said, I completely refuse to lie about theory as an IC.

You haven't lied about theory, but you sure as hell are telling townies the wrong theory.

I fully believe that lists are horrible for town. When I am scum and see them, I am thrilled because anything that isn't crystal clear, or anyone who isn't that great about putting out all of their leaning one way or another read just gave me what I need.

Why are you opposed? I made a very long post showing that there is not ONE single harm with read lists, yet you tried to pull some "They'll give scum information".
There is no information they don't already know.

Benefits of Read lists

-Summarization of game
- Give information to townies
- Catches scum
- Promotes teamwork
- Develops objective thought

Harms of Read lists

- None, because scum already know who's town and who's scum (There is no information they don't previously know)

I no longer have to wonder if player X that I think should be being read as town is actually read as town by everyone else.

If someone is picking up a consensus townish read I could do something about it.[/quote]
What are the harms of lists? You haven't disputed the benefits. You keep blundering that "they are silly".

Lists are bad. Period.

You're a blatant hypocrite. Bordering on foolish.

So we can tell people who's scum/town as long as its not in list format

Every time I have seen them as scum it gave me a bit of information that I was missing before or something like that. Every time I have seen them as town, it rarely gave me anything workable. Scum benefit from them far more.

How? For the love of god, how?

[Csareo]

I'm sorry, but this is the silliest bullshit I ever heard.
Gif tells all.

[Csareo]

I really don't think you are incapable of understanding this so you are probably scum.

I am thinking along similar lines.

Everything in the pro list is something that town should do in their regular posts.

Again, we can do this stuff in normal posts but not in list format.

If you are not sure about something in particular, ask.

Actually, I'm not unsure about "something in particular". I am certain it is all bullshit.

When you put everything in one spot, it eliminates the need for scum to go hunting through posts for what every player thinks about every other player in order to optimize tells.

You can't reverse a scum tell. Once it happened, it has happened. Scum can improve on their play, but that doesn't outweigh the benefits....
- Townies also know how to optimize their play
- Townies have new information
- Townies are on the same page

If you want to know a specific read, you ask about the specific read. You put everything on the table, and scum now know exactly where everyone stands.

By that logic, we would never get anything done. Lists keep things simplistic. Scum can find information just as easily if it is list form or not, unless they're lazy and incompetent.

Do you have ANY idea how dangerous scum who can start optimizing actions are is?

Scum tells can't be reversed

! They can't redo a past mistake. While we run collateral damage by letting scum improve, we are doing a lot more good than bad. Read lists do far more to scum hunt

Every time I have seen them as scum it gave me a bit of information that I was missing before or something like that. Every time I have seen them as town, it rarely gave me anything workable. Scum benefit from them far more.

How? For the love of god, how?

As town you should have a general idea of how everyone stands on topics.

Really, then what is shiryo's stance on bee?
What does innocent think of bullish?
Townies DON"T know how everyone stands unless they're told. That's the whole point. I don't know what 6 of the players think on bee, because 6 people haven't told me.
That's what lists are for.

f you are not sure about some person, you push on them to get the answer as needed. When scum has every read from every person, they can make the most effective kill possible.

Use spell check....
Scum don't need to have reads on people. They already know who's town

If scum sees player A as most likely to be town, then after a mass read list its revealed everyone thinks player B is leaning town while there are a few who think player A is leaning scum, well scum just improved their kill.

This game is about informed minorites vs uninformed majorities. Scum already know who's town. It is called Occam's Razor

Spoiler:

You start eliminating the chance of scum misinterpreting the game state the more you give them. The more scum has to go through posts over the entire day to find reads, the more likely it is for them to miss something.

Same with townies. You act like town is better off stupid and uninformed. This is advocating for a pro-scum theory.

Seriously. This is very basic theory that quite a bit of the site agrees with. If you don't agree with it - tough.

2% of scientists don't believe in global warming.
Are those 2% dumbasses, yes, why yes they are.

Apparently that's "tough" though.

Read games, they are very rare to ever happen because its the general consensus that they are anti-town in nature. Usually they occur when someone replaces into a game to let people know their general thoughts on everything that has happened, rarely to never outside of those situation.

Read lists are a common occurence that inform town, catch scum, and help make town into a cooperative and effective unit.
You brought forward two arguments...

1. Lists allow mafia to optimize plays (as well as catch scum, make town more informed, and optimize townies plays)
2. Mafia learns who's town and mafia............... again,

[Csareo]

Do I really need to start saying "Mafia learns who the game as a whole who is town and mafia instead of trying to interpret it and possibly not getting it right"?

I can't comprehend this sentence. Occam's razor in this game ensures that the scum member is informed. Read lists are hated by scum.

Look - If you they are, or are not, lists are not good. If they were good, then everyone would be making them in every game. Yet no one uses them.

They are used a LOT on the sites I used to play on. Epic mafia a lot as well.
I have read about 10 games on this site in the past week. I'm pretty confident that claims lists are commonplace.

So you either have the audacity to come in here and argue that everyone on the site is wrong and you are a mafia god, or you are wrong.

Audacity? Yes, I have the audacity to argue terrible theory. I have the audacity to do far worst.

Have you realized that the closest thing even one of the SEs have done is give reads on a few hot topics? Lists don't work. If you need to know a players read on another for something, go read their posts. If you are still not sure, ask them.

I am putting an FOS on you.
All this anti-list talk was an obvious ploy at getting beeboy to not explain his reads.
That's what it looks like at least.

[Csareo]

End of story...........
Scum hate lists because it fingers players, informs town, and forces them to either defend themselves or actually scum hunt.

[Csareo]

You people sicken me
We use them a lot where bullish plays.

[Csareo]

I still don't have one fucking clue how a list helps scum 0_0

[Csareo]

Anyways,
UNVOTE: llama
VOTE: beeboy
Explain your votes mate

[Csareo]

PE edit: reads

[Csareo]

Protip: I'm not an alt.

Exactly what an alt would say

Because I fabricated 15 years of my personal history using the internet for the sake of an alt for a site that hadn't been created when i first started using the net.

That's exactly what an alt would do.

[Csareo]

You people sicken me
We use them a lot where bullish plays.

I still don't have one fucking clue how a list helps scum 0_0

Well my mafia experience is rather limited to off topic of another forum. What can I say it never occured.

From what I gathered from llahma post. It helps mafia optimise their kill by making it easier to know where everyone stands thus killing those that will be less of a problem to them.

Past scuminess can't go away, that has been recorded, so whether or not mafia improves their plays, you have tagged what they already did.
Here are my complaints.....

1. So llama recommends we call out scum tells and reads, as long as its not in list format?
2. Can't town optimize their plays as well?
3. Many people, even the experienced, play like sheep in this game. Giving the best information to townies means the best lynch choices.

From what we saw in beeboy, read lists do indeed work. We were able to discover that beebo has been faking scum hunting, which is pretty scummy.
I think llama was trying to disscredit my reads on him, which were semi-affirmed when innocent called me "almost certainly town".
Actually, I would like llama to give me his reads.

[Csareo]

7 optimized, organized, and cooperative townies will trump 2 optimized scum any day of the week.

[Csareo]

You put it better than I did.
I should of stressed the "accountability" point.
Speaking of which, why have you scum read TN5?

[Csareo]

We have a player at L-4
A player at L-3
Finally a player at L-2

I would like to pressure test beeboy. Someone put him at L-1, and I'm making it very clear, that no one should hammer him after.
Speaking of which, where is beeboy?

[Csareo]

@Llamma, do you seriously expect a lynch to fall through on me?
I haven't heard one comment from you on beeboy.
That will reflect if he flips scum.

[Csareo]

@Bullish - TN5 has a point. You're acting somewhat like your scum meta.
@TN5 - Vote please. It looks like you're avoiding a vote.

[Csareo]

UNVOTE: beeboy
VOTE: Bullish

I still think beeboy has been scummy, but I don't think we should risk a quickhammer. Especially on somebody that hasn't said much yet, and with Reni missing.

Stop, don't tread us on the path of no return.
There's no way a lynch will fall through on him now.
Keep your pressure vote on beeboy, or forever be marked scum.

We do pressure votes for another reason. We can see who backs out at the last minute.
A good analogy is a car game, called chicken, where two cars charge at each other....
one backing out at the last minute. That's what you just did, and TGS, that is very bad.

My gut feeling tells me bullish is scum, but I only have meta to go on.
That begs the question, what do you have on bullish.

UNVOTE: beeboy
VOTE: TGS

This vote leaves once you place it back on beeboy (because removing your vote was scummy )

[Csareo]

My gut reaction to 155 is that he is possible scum trying to push a lynch by bringing up talking points and voting the most acceptable wagon.

I see it as a town trying to bring up a talking point.

And you are not the "most acceptable wagon." You're not widely scum read. There isn't even a wagon on you.

What do you think of TGS's vote switch?
My gut tells me that she backed out of our little pressure test.
@TGS - Put him back to L-3 and I'll remove my vote.

[Csareo]

Teen Girl Squad, here is some advice. When we specifically design a pressure test for a player, do not remove your vote.
We are forced to think you are protecting him. There is often a good strategy for catching scum.
Getting a player to L-1 and seeing who backs out. You backed out TGS, which is a no-no.

No one is going to hammer him. You have my assurance.
If they do, then they'll face hell tomorrow.

[Csareo]

Currently posting on my phone but

Dude

Are you serious. Just letting beeboy sit there at l-1 with, what, six posts under his belt is seriously anti-town play. Even if beeboy is scum and gets quickhammered, it doesn't give us much to go on for day 2. You seem to vote anybody that disagrees with you.

It is called a pressure test. Why the hell would you remove your vote as soon as he gets to L-1?
No one is going to hammer him, but give me some credit. Moving your vote like that is HIGHLY suspicious.

[Csareo]

Quickhammering is only slightly less scummy than claiming scum

It isn't a quickhammer. I specifically said that "no one hammers after". The only person who would, is probably scum.
Is it slightly suspicious that she withdrew her vote at L-1?

[Csareo]

I've given my reasoning for getting off the wagon for now. If you find it suspicious, fine. Why are you so sure that nobody's going to hammer him, Csareo?

Because if they do, then we'll hammer them tommorow.
If someone did, they would instantly be tagged as scum.

[Csareo]

[quote="In post 193, notscience"][/quote]
Hey, we were going to lynch beeboy, but his replacement got him off the hook.
Why should we leave you alive? Who do you think is scum? What's your background?

Beeboy's scum slips transfer over to you, so I'm not buying the "he was being stupid" gambit.

[Csareo]

I don't think beeboy was the village idiot. I'm almost certain he's scum, and asking to be replace out really hit it for me.
Obviously you guys know where I play with bullish. I also use to play epicmafia A LOT, and another site, but I would die of embarassment

[Csareo]

That was obvious by your "attack' on me when I came in.

There was no attack.

[Csareo]

Prod dodge, thoughts are coming soon.
I'm losing interest in this game, since the replacements came in.

[Csareo]

I will say a couple of things now though.
1. Drcirno, why are you so focused on TN5?
2. TN5, drcirno is making a lot of sense. I'll elaborate more later, but you have taken one of the top scum reads.
3. Llama, do you seriously expect us to believe that sole focus on me is scum hunting?

[Csareo]

TGS, what is your vote justification?
You ommitted it from that post.

BTW, I'm still making that detailed post. I'm way to lazy to do so now.

[Csareo]

Csareo, why have the replaces caused you to lose interest? Even after missing a day of posting, you're still at the top of the post count for the thread, that's a pretty sudden switch.

Sorry. Replacements really force the game to lose momentum. I felt comfortable when I had established an understanding of the game, but when replacements come in, they escape a lot of the fire (not really the case here, but I assumed it would be). Hope that clarifies it. I've been trying to observe others scum hunting to better understand the replacements. So yes, I have been openly lurking. I hope to get back into the game sometime tomorrow.

[Csareo]

You also lied. You were supposed to post a case on me today and have not done so.

Lied? In post #274 I said I would get around to it

later

How is that a lie?

[Csareo]

I don't understand the case on me either. TGS or TN5 have done little to actually show why they think I'm scum.
If I knew what the exact charges were against me, I would feel more open to defending them.
I know llama made a post earlier. I wasn't sure how to respond to it.
@TN5, why are you becoming hostile all of a sudden?

[Csareo]

Just a side note, notscience and llama have been posting everywhere BUT this thread.

[Csareo]

What?

???

1 and 2 seem to be contradicting each other a bit. "DC is too focused on tn5 but I agree with him" seems to be taking swipes at both.

They are either contradicting each other or they aren't. I agree with him, but also think he has scum hunted to much on one player.
Do I need to teach you the definition of contradiction?

Im going to go in IC mode for a bit on an awkward response since I made the case, but lets try it:
Reponses to a case usually center around a few things
1) What you said is true but it is not a scumtell because X
2) What you said is a misinterpretation of what I was doing which was really X
3) What you said is not true because of X

You haven't established what context X is revolved around.

o look at me countering the attack of "online but not posting" as an example of (1)

Out of curiosity - how do you think that you are supposed to respond to a case? When you make one what do you expect the player to do

I found it odd that you weren't talking to me in that post, but still expected me to respond to it. This appears to be baiting, and your reaction when I ignored it made me suspicious.
I'm pretty sure there was some kind of loop hole that you wanted to catch me in, so I chose not to respond.

[Csareo]

WTH is a beetlejuice tell?

[Csareo]

Beeboy (who was extremely suspicious) was replaced by notscience.
Llama is playing as a pretty bad IC, and appears to be scum motivated.
TN5 is doing a lot of accusations without a case, and isn't scum hunting like I would expect a veteran player to do.

I reason that scum is among them.

[Csareo]

Llamafluff has been criticized for his advice in the other newbie game he is in as well.
I'm reading your ISO to see that post again.

[Csareo]

@Czareo

Also I think beeboy slot is town based on how people jumped on him.
The kickstarter for these whole beeboy business was "hypocrisy = scum", which is not even a correct tell AND one of those "scumtells" that scum LOVES to abuse. Also, I see beeboy's "hypocrisy" fairly town because the way he did it looked like he did that without any self-consciousness of what he's doing, which is what Town usually does. In fact, before llama came up with that case on czareo, a lot of people was focused on beeboy's replace-out (probably still are), which is a second red-flag. In fact, people are so focused on that that they are letting the actual scum, like tn, slip under the radar.

VOTE: tn5421

Oh, nvm

[Csareo]

So beeboy is town because to many people are focusing on him?

[Csareo]

Oh right, sorry.
This site has some hardass rules.

[Csareo]

How is a player supposed to respond to a case on them to you?

I don't understand the question. If you clarify then I'll happily answer.

[Csareo]

How is a player supposed to respond to a case on them to you?

I don't understand the question. If you clarify then I'll happily answer.

You call a player scum for <Reason>. What do you expect them to do in return?

It depends on the player. Most newbies would probably defend themselves.
I said in the beginning of the game, that it isn't town's job to defend themselves.

[Csareo]

I'm also moving forward on the TN5 lynch. Something is off about how she is playing this game.
UNVOTE: notscience
VOTE: TN5
@notscience, can you try to defend beeboy's scum slips? They carry over to you, don't they?

[Csareo]

*he
I would be mor eager to vote someone else if TN5 were to make a comprehensive case justifying his vote.

[Csareo]

How is a player supposed to respond to a case on them to you?

I don't understand the question. If you clarify then I'll happily answer.

You call a player scum for <Reason>. What do you expect them to do in return?

It depends on the player. Most newbies would probably defend themselves.
I said in the beginning of the game, that it isn't town's job to defend themselves.

In the site you and bullish play, how does one defend from cases?

As bullish said earlier, this site has tunneled to deep, to the point where one theory has developed.
It isn't exactly the same where I played with him. There is more flexibillity in how people play, so it is really dependent on one's meta.
There is not one objective way in which players defend themselves.

there are also no 14 day rounds

[Csareo]

How is a player supposed to respond to a case on them to you?

I don't understand the question. If you clarify then I'll happily answer.

You call a player scum for <Reason>. What do you expect them to do in return?

It depends on the player. Most newbies would probably defend themselves.
I said in the beginning of the game, that it isn't town's job to defend themselves.

Yes it is... that's how you stop yourself from being mislynched as town, you defend yourself.

Why am I wrong about you being scum? Lets try that. What of my points are bad and why?

I never called your points bad or good. They are for others to determine.
Hopefully bullish can affirm this, but where he plays (I didn't play there that much), there isn't a whole defensive culture.
You are more likely to catch scum if you don't constantly defend themselves.

Defending yourself over and over to the point where it becomes repetitive is confusing, non-productive, and will only let the accuser find more excuses to scum read you.
I know several very good veterans who wont even bat an eye when they are scum read. It is a waste of time, especially for a player only at L-2. When someone gives intent to lynch, then I'll start defending myself. Until then, there is no point.

[Csareo]

I don't encourage defensive players.
It is a waste of breath, that develops into repetition and rhetoric.
Fun fact: The more you defend yourself the more you're scum read.

These games are best played focusing on scum hunting.
It isn't towns job to convince others they are town.
It is towns job to convince others who scum is.

Catching scum is the best way to defend yourself.

[Csareo]

Well that picked up fast.

I don't understand the case on me either. TGS or TN5 have done little to actually show why they think I'm scum.

So... no response to... any of the reasons I posted that I found you scummy...?

I thought I had. Can you tell me which ones went unanswered?

[Csareo]

It is also intresting to note, that you weren't directing your case at me, so why should I have defended it?
If I'm not specifically asked to do something, I will focus on scum hunting. Anything else is a waste of time, and unproductive in every form.

[Csareo]

I don't encourage defensive players.
It is a waste of breath, that develops into repetition and rhetoric.
Fun fact: The more you defend yourself the more you're scum read.

These games are best played focusing on scum hunting.
It isn't towns job to convince others they are town.
It is towns job to convince others who scum is.

Catching scum is the best way to defend yourself.

I always say this to people who say this.

What's good with your scum-hunt effort when you aren't being townread enough to be trusted?
A lot of people may think that "my townflip will bring my cases more credits!" but sadly, the harsh reality is that "lol bad/wrong town" is enough to destroy any credentials on your read nigh completely.

Town's job is to eliminate all scum. However, that also means town's job is not to lynch other towns, including self. Sometime, town needs to fight back and defend themselves when necessary.

Actually, if you look over my other finished game, you can hear my thoughts on credibillity slashing.
When someone is trying to destroy my credibillity, I will defend myself.

So yes, you're right on that part, but in reality, logical comments will convince logical people.
Scum hunting is the best source of credibillity. Whenever I try to defend myself in this game, people only scum read me further.
It is only when I am intent on scum hunting that people learn to listen to me.

Don't forget, the credibillity argument goes both ways.

[Csareo]

These games are best played focusing on scum hunting.
It isn't towns job to convince others they are town.
It is towns job to convince others who scum is.

Alright IC time

No. This is outright NOT true. If you can convince others that you are town, you are not going to get lynched, which makes it much harder for scum to mislynch town and easier for town to catch scum because there are less suspects. The game I see where town crushes scum? The games where a third of the town all realizes that they are town.

Yes its good to scumhunt, but if you can convince the town that they are wrong when you are called scum, that's possibly even better, because you are scumhunting and are not basically setting up a situation where if you are remotely wrong, are going to lose town the game.

Respond to cases on you. Even if you think the points are bad, you show why.

If im wrong - prove me wrong. If I am right - well just rolling over and dying like this is appreciated.

It is theory. Theory can not be "outright NOT true".
I am actually not the first to make this case. I know a veteran who said this.
Maybe bullish knows who I'm talking about.

[Csareo]

Hunting scum is the best defense.
Defending yourself digs you further down a rabbit hole.
When two pages are of you defending yourself, then people now had two pages to focus on YOU.
Which makes you seem scummier than when you left.

I will defend myself if specifically asked. I always have, but when someone scum reads me, I don't freak out and try to make a case when I'm town.
I know I'm not town, and there is no reason to prove so until someone gives intent to hammer. The best way to show you're town is to hunt scum.

[Csareo]

*I know I'm town

[Csareo]

I tried to cobble it all together in post 280, but to summarize,

- I didn't like your confidence that nobody was going to hammer beeboy, it looked like you said that knowing his alignment.
- I found your shifting 'policy' votes unhelpful at best, scummy at worst
- I found your sudden silence when beeboy replaced strange, since your profile showed you were around and active.

Gotta be honest, I thought TN was town in the beginning of the game, but DrCirno is starting to convince me otherwise. Still prefer my vote where it is now, though.

1. It is called a pressure vote. You put a player at L-1 to see their reaction, and to get answers (beeboy wasn't answering).
If someone hammers than they are supposed to be policy lynched the next day. Hence, no one sane would hammer him.

2. Okay, I change my votes a lot. Conceded.

3. I made my case on that. It doesn't look like you found it very convincing though.

[Csareo]

I will defend myself if specifically asked.

And you have been asked.

By who?

[Csareo]

I have been asked to answer llama's question.
Did you read my comment on why I didn't respond to her case?

[Csareo]

Fine, give me a sec

[Csareo]

1) His "random" vote is still bad. For someone who seems to always want information and accountability and hates RVS, it even makes less sense. It makes zero accountability for what is going on and prolongs RVS. Even a "vote because of joke" comes from a conscious choice.

I gave a justification for my random vote. YOU never responded back. Look near the front. The townies saw my defense, and so did you. |
It is not up to me to convince them.

2) The attack on Bullish for being online but not voting.

This is a lie. I attacked bullish for being online and not posting.

People do this all the time. I will log on to make sure there is nothing critical happening for List Mod stuff. I will log on and start reading then have something come up in life. Or try to get a post done while making dinner and run out of time. Or do some Mafia Discussion reading. In this situation its not a tell. If it was near a deadline and they logged on then didn't cast a vote to prevent a no lynch, then yes, I can see it being scummy. Here? No.

He hadn't posted to the game once since it started, yet logged on twice.
Quick question. If I were scum, what would my motivation for that be?
I think that was page 2.

3) His votes tend to lack some conviction. He voted bee early and outright said he would remove his vote after a response. He voted me due to theory disagreement. He went back to voting bee and asking for just pressure votes. He is not really making too many cases, and his one on bee has at least one really bad point (saying his reads agree with consensus - are you supposed to change your reads to be unique?).

After my 60 or so posts regarding bee, you're seriously saying they lacked conviction? I busted my ass convincing people of my reads on him.

4) His vote on TGS basically is bullying, and in a very scummy way. First lets get one thing clear - its not a pressure vote if you say its a pressure vote. Its a pressure vote when you DONT say it is (note you should never pressure vote a town read but I think we know that). On top of that, you actually say "gut says Bullish is scum" and then vote TGS for voting Bullish. At best, you are being unproductive and anti-town.

Not in the slightest. A player removed her vote at L-1

without

justification.
Seriously?

Why do you say this if you think Bee is scum? The assumption that we quicklynch the player who hammered without a claim relies of the lynched player being town. All of your posts regarding the quicklynch possibility are made from the mindset that bee, who you are trying to get lynched, is town.

This logic contradicts itself. If someone hammered him that would heavily imply that beeboy is town.
Review what you just said please.

Will have more stuff later. For now lets get some wagons moving.

I'm still waiting

[Csareo]

Okay, leave me alone now.
Take my defense or leave my defense, my focus is on catching scum.

[Csareo]

1. It is called a pressure vote. You put a player at L-1 to see their reaction, and to get answers (beeboy wasn't answering).
If someone hammers than they are supposed to be policy lynched the next day. Hence, no one sane would hammer him.

2. Okay, I change my votes a lot. Conceded.

3. I made my case on that. It doesn't look like you found it very convincing though.

1. Right, I understand that. But what I'm saying is, you seemed to know in those posts where you talked about this that bee was town, which only scum would know for sure.

2. So do you think you were helping town by doing these policy votes? And why?

3. Honestly, I didn't. I would think the replacements would want to make you post more, especially after the whole beeboy thing.

- Then you are mistaken. I don't know what else to say.
- Policy lynching is the best decision you can make day one. Since it usually ends up in a mislynch, I prefer to remove the most problematic player.
- I don't have the same personality as you. Your theory resides on me reacting and being motivated in the same manner you do. It is a personal preference. I stopped posting on another game as well.

[Csareo]

I'm not big on defending myself. The more I do it the more people scum read me.
I want to scum hunt, so please let me scum hunt.

[Csareo]

See, when somebody scummy gets replaced, we usually pressure the replacer hard. I don't get why everybody just got off notscience so quickly.

Exactly why I got frustrated.

[Csareo]

I'm not sure if we should lynch TN5 or notscience, and it worries me that notscience has his vote on TN5.

[Csareo]

I do indeed

[Csareo]

[quote="In post 386, Shiro"
In any case Csareo can I ask you something ? Why are you so certain that Beeboy was mafia and not a bad townie ? 3 games experience in an off topic section doesn't exactly make you a master scum hunter. I believe this is the reason most people left notscience alone.From someone with little experience, it is easy to see past mistakes.[/quote]
I wasn't certain of anything.
I have played

way

more than three games.

[Csareo]

Since getting votes, he has basically refused to do anything about it, and then just slid onto a wagon while complaining about people attacking him. Compare that to early when all he did was make noise. Under pressure, he seems to just be trying to lay low and let it pass. He has been saying "let me scumhunt" but he hasn't DONE any scumhunting as of late.

I'm waiting for his long detailed post he promised.

I'll just UNVOTE: until its done.
That way you guys and girls wont get the wrong idea.

It might just be semi-long though. How do I link to specific posts?

[Csareo]

Thanks

[Csareo]

Uh, first rule of playing as scum "Don't mention you didn't expect the NK"
An instant give away, and something I hoped the IC would point out.

[Csareo]

It isn't something to lynch someone for, alone, but I have seen it as a trend between scum.
Calling it out would of at least turned suspicion towards Shiro, who otherwise flew by unnoticed.
Unfortunately, the shiro=scum thing didn't click until later in the game.

As for her knowing I was a PR, I have to call bullshit here. I got my role PM confused with another game, so I don't know how I could of given that away.

[Csareo]

I'll have to regain my throne in a rematch