Newbie 1546: Binary Trolls (Game Over!)

[TGGC]

Netherspite:
the first postings of Netherspite seem odd, a) he says he is going to look like scum and he does not care b) he explains he secret question strategy (which kind of defeats this strategy) c) long, useless exchange with luca
Also he promised the results of his questions, which never came, deadline was 2 days away before the extension.
Leans to scum.


Bananas/Toolenduso:
bananas post does not say much
toolenduso made many posts which look like scumhunting, looks town to me

Lolbabe:
useless posts, no read

Shiro:
Lot of posts without much substance. Two things strike me most, how GuyInFreezer opinion is valued higher than his own and the "i am not scumhunting" line.
Either scum or useless townie.

Dyslexicon/BlueBloodedToffee;
Dyslexicon did only 1 somewhat useful post. BlueBloodedToffee only replaced recently. So no read for now.

Luca Blight:
Spend most of his posts with "buddying theory" and defending it afterwards.
Slightly scum or useless townie (again).

VictorDeAngelo:
no read

GuyInFreezer:
First thing, he is wrong about Netherspite throwing away his meta defense is town because scum would not do that. And after that there is not that much. So another scum or useless town.


VOTE: Shiro

[TGGC]

So you want me to defend? Well there is not a lot to defend, because explaining Carli's behaviour is a waste of time. 2 points came up, I am lazy and I bandwagoned. I read every post and everyone in ISO and gave you my thoughts. Voting Shiro would have the most effect at that time so I consider it good play. I agree about Victor with BlueBloodedToffee, I did not place my vote there, because it will not make an inactive player react.

About the imaginary rule: this means loosing 2 townies and a whole day of information. So its a no brainer not to do this.

[TGGC]

Why you want me to claim that fast? That is anti town. Anyone want to hammer? Also everyone voting for me please explain why you keep your votes on me. If possible, cut out the "Carli bailed out" stuff.

[TGGC]

@Netherspite:
Broadly discussed? Half the players did not even notice what you call a claim.

@JohnnyFarrar:
This special rule only comes into play, when Shiro is town. So in total it even means 4 Townies because of the nightkills.

[TGGC]

@Netherspite:
If you would have read my posts, you might have noticed:
a) I am not going to explain Carli's behaviour
b) I do not consider #98 a claim

So why you suddenly try to push my claim and lynch that fast?

As I've explained previously, some of them will be "filler" questions while some of them will give me useful information to support / deny my theories.
Few days before the deadline I'll share what I've learned and post my whole case on my main suspects.

Still waiting.

In the unlikely event of TGGC flipping Town

What exactly would make that unlikely in your opinion.

[TGGC]

I am a

Town Doctor

.

I think with all things said so far, I am very unlikely to survive the first lynch _and_ the first night. So I focus on getting someone lynched D1 who has a bigger than zero chance of being scum (e.g. not me) and give town as much input as possible, because it will be confirmed by my death. To me its obvious Carli was overwhelmed with the responsibilty she thought a town PR has and paniced. This behaviour cannot be explained because it is not rational.

Most likely scum: Netherspite

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Netherspite

I will not repeat what I said in my first post, just add upon it.

scumNetherspite has quite a smooth ride before I replace Carli. He has his own small fight with Shiro, which helps him in multiple ways:
a) Shiro is not in focus of other players so his attack won't raise that much attention to him
b) it seems unlikely Shiros lynch succeed, so he will not get under suspicion for starting it
c) he still can point back to his efforts as scum hunting

So in short, it is a quite safe way to paint him a bit more town.

Now I come in pushing his wagon, because I want to see how serious he is about it and at the same time I doubt his town motivation. I also press him on his questioning results (Johnny does this too). His explanation for not giving results is (#244) basically that we have low activity in this game. As town I would not hold my results back 2 days until deadline especially if I know about the low activity of the other players. Also he suddenly stops going after Shiro after spending a lot of time building this case. In #267 he says Carli did the same things as Shiro, so that is not s reason to prefer my vote over Shiros. So it boils down to this: he votes me because of the things _other_ players noted, which can be a nice excuse later on. I believe he switched votes because after Johnny showing intent to hammer me, he thinks I am now an easy lynch target to get over with D1. He had no interest in a Shiro lynch to begin with. Now this could also mean, that Shiro is his scum partner. But with that many players inactive, thats really just a slight possibility because scum may also hide easily by lurking in this game.

[TGGC]

Seems I have to catchup again, because I have been busy at Halloween.

The real doc should not counter claim if he's lying. I'd rather have a living hidden doc than trade him/her for 1 dead scum.

What is that? Teaching your scum partner? You don't seem that inexperienced for this kind of advice.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6343576 - why are you still keeping the _results_ to yourself?

One scum is in Tool/Johnny purely because stats say that replacements in Newbie games are most likely to be done by scum

Global stats don't say anything about this particular game. Also you would have to compare this against the time players spent in the game. A townie is more like to die early bevcause of the night kills, those townies simply replace more seldom because they have less play time.

This abc) can be countered by an actual Shiro lynch

So you want me to switch my vote and lynch Shiro and if he flips scum to clear Nether?

I can't get rid of the feeling that lynching Shiro is a mistake. However, previous time I allowed myself to ignore the initial suspect and look for more deep and hidden motivations than there really were, it ended up with a mislynch of the wrong guy. So this time I'll stick with my initial suspect. I prefer logic over gut feelings after all.

What kind of twisted logic ist that?

Trying to catch up ASAP.

[TGGC]

1. I protected Shiro and it did not work. So I got blocked, because scum was very sure about Shiro's PR.


2. I have a question I want Netherspite to answer:

there's only 1 out of 4 possible setups where doc claim is safe.

Why 4 setups? I am playing this setup the first time, so I may be wrong. If I was mafia fakeclaiming, I would be either a roleblocker and there were only 2 setups possible at all or I would be a regular mafia guy and then any of the 6 setups is possible. If I was town PR fakeclaiming, its also 2 setups. Why 4? Am I wrong? Are you wrong? Please explain.

[TGGC]

First of all, if you'd be a Mafia Goon, you'd know if your team has Mafia RB or not.

How would I know that?

[TGGC]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p6298657 tells me it is not.

I am starting to think you're having information I do not have. You projected those information on a potential "scumTGGC" extrapolating what he knows. That means you are scum. (I looked up your games, and I found only one, were you have been VT, so your info does not seem to come from there).

VOTE: Netherspite

[TGGC]

Just take a look at http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2805636 and compare...

[TGGC]

In the real role PM obviously you'll get exact role of your partner.

I do not claim I am newbie. I claim you have information I do not have and therefore you are scum.

[TGGC]

You say its obvious you know the exact role of your partner. Instead of explaining, you are just attacking...

[TGGC]

@Netherspite:
I have looked at the PMs and my interpretation is in #1226. Only the Roleblocker can be sure of 2 setups, the normal mafia cannot, because in his PM both roles are stated. Now you obviously have a different interpretation of this PM, how can you know that? So you are either wrong and very stubborn about this or you know from somewhere else outside this thread. For example your own PMs.

@VDA:
Please look at the mafia PMs, the roleblocker knows and the normal one does not. And how can you _know_, if it comes up in scum chat, if you are not scum? In the game pointed out we did not chat at all because my partner was lynched D1. So I do not see how you can be sure about the setup here, even if you were mafia. If you know, just explain to me please.

[TGGC]

I did not know you could search for mafia communication. When I was mafia, we got a link to http://www.quicktopic.com/ and there has not been an introduction like that. But if Netherspite searched those threads, why didn't he say when I asked? I still think he is scum and suggest everyone to vote him. I fail to see how he can know that for sure, you even haven't found an example! So how can you know someone else knows the roles? I say because you know the roles yourself and wrongly extrapolate. Pls vote Netherspite, he is scum!

[TGGC]

Mafia receives role PMs listed in the beginning of this topic.
Mafia Goon's PM contains exact role of his partner.

Everyone pls look:

You are a Mafia Goon, along with your partner, who is a Mafia Goon/Roleblocker.

Your goal is to take over the town. Once per night, you may send me a PM with the name of a person you wish to night kill. You may also perform the kill in your PT. During the night and pre-game, you may talk with your partners here.

You win when you make up a majority of the town.

Best of luck.

From this PM you cannot know the setup. Vote Netherspite, he is _SCUM_.

[TGGC]

No matter how hard you try, I won't believe you don't realize that listing both possible partner's roles in

real

role PM is useless and no one would do that.

Its not useless, it tells you your partner is a or b. But its useless talking to you, because you are scum.

[TGGC]

Ok, maybe you are right, that stating in the PM "your partner is A or B" does not give additional information. Still other PMs also contain those kind of "useless information", so I don't get why you can be so sure attacking someone unless you are scum covering your slip.

[TGGC]

And I am pretty sure stating something like "No one will ever do that." is almost always wrong.

[TGGC]

Yes, as VDA demonstrated, Mafia gets told their alignment in a thread, so that point in the PM is not needed. But did you know that before? I did not, because it did not happen in my scum game. But you never played a scum game before this one, did you?

What slip are you even talking about?

No I did not receive a PM like that, but I got the PM _exactly_ as stated in the opening post just with the filled in blank for the name.

[TGGC]

Netherspite, did you play games on this site with a different nick?

@BlueBloodedToffee: My point is simple: if I receive the PM I quoted, I would not know which setup we have.

[TGGC]

I think it's pretty obvious the Mafia Goon/Roleblocker in the example PM's is only so it doesn't give the set-up away

I agree with this part. But how do you _KNOW_, the mod sends a different PM? Give me an explanation how you can _KNOW_ that. It is impossible to _KNOW_ that. I don't see how you or Netherspite can _KNOW_ that without actually reading the PM. I do not think a townie could be so sure about that, so he would start attacking someone.

@BlueBloodedToffee:
I think its Netherspite and Luca Blight right now.

[TGGC]

@TGGC

You still insist that Mafia Goon shouldn't know whether Mafia has RB in the game?

As I said, VDA showed that Mafia knows if there is a RB from the mafia thread. But that is not the point. I asked you how you know and you answered:

Because role of your partner is written in your role PM?

If you are town, EXPLAIN HOW YOU KNOW THAT!

[TGGC]

I know it because it's fucking common sense. Look at the Roleblocker example PM, notice how it says the partner is definitely a Goon?

YES I HAVE LOOKED. AND SO I SAID ONLY THE ROLEBLOCKER KNOWS FROM PM.

[TGGC]

So you cannot explain because you are scum.

[TGGC]

If you're town then why not just admit your mistake once you've realized it? Instead, TGGC starts accusing Nether of being scum (on very shaky grounds) and tries to divert attention away from himself. This is textbook scummy behavior.

The problem is, I do not realize how Netherspite can know how the PM looks like. He also never explained it (he only says he did), instead he attacked and voted me right after the post, where he stated that its in the PM. I only voted him back, because I think a townie cannot know this information for sure and would not attack but try to explain.

[TGGC]

Yes, and now go to the front page and read the PMs. The PM of the standard mafia player on the front page do not state the exakt role of his partner. And now Netherspite:

Because role of your partner is written in your role PM?

[TGGC]

Ok, last time...

In the first post in this thread we have the following PM:

You are a Mafia Goon, along with your partner, who is a Mafia Goon/Roleblocker.

Your goal is to take over the town. Once per night, you may send me a PM with the name of a person you wish to night kill. You may also perform the kill in your PT. During the night and pre-game, you may talk with your partners here.

You win when you make up a majority of the town.

Best of luck.

So if someone would get this PM, he would not know the exact role of his partner, only that it is in the set of {Mafia Goon, Roleblocker}. Therefore there is no further information about the setup given to someone receiving this PM. As VDA demonstrated, a mafia player gets the role of his partner told in another thread. But I never played a game with such a thread, so I wanted to know from Netherspite:

Why 4 setups? I am playing this setup the first time, so I may be wrong. If I was mafia fakeclaiming, I would be either a roleblocker and there were only 2 setups possible at all or I would be a regular mafia guy and then any of the 6 setups is possible.

Netherspite tells me:

Because role of your partner is written in your role PM?
You're asking

too

stupid questions, I'm starting to think you're faking being newbie.

And in his very next post, coming immediatly afterwards:

In game Newbie 1065 you were a Mafia Goon with Mafia Roleblocker in your team.
You've seen the role PM, you know how it looks like and you obviously know that you'd know whether your team has Mafia RB or not if you were Mafia Cop.
You're lying and I don't see any legit reason for townie to do that.

VOTE: TGGC

Now, please look at his "evidence", the role PMs in Newbie 1065:

You are a Mafia Goon, along with your partner _________, who is a Mafia Roleblocker. Your goal is to eliminate the pro-town players so that there are equal numbers of town and mafia players or the mafia outnumbers the town; you win if either of these situations occur. During the day, try to blend in with the rest of the players, and get someone lynched (if that someone is not your partner or yourself, that will make things much easier). You may talk with your partner at night [QUICKTOPIC LINK HERE], and send me a choice via PM of who you wish to kill.

Please confirm via PM and send your role name with your confirmation so I know you read the PM.

Obviously this PM is different. Now there is really information about the setup given. I think he never bothered to compare those PMs and spot the difference, because he knows I am not scum. He skimmed through it and was happy to find "evidence" against me. Watch how close the timestamps are, it took him 2 minutes to decide that I am scum. How can a townie, who really reads those 2 PMs conclude that someone thinking they are different must be scum?

So basically it does not matter, that VDA demonstrated scum knows his partner from the mafia thread afterwards, because Netherspite said he knows from the PM.

[TGGC]

Except it's also in the role PM. Which I'm pretty sure I also said.

Don't you understand it is not about if I am wrong about scum knowing his partner? It's about how Netherspite claims he knows I am wrong. He is so sure about me beeing wrong, that he started voting me. And he claims he knows from my other game. I do not see, how a townie can:
- search for my old games
- read the PMs from the current and the old game
- compare them
- see they are _different_
- conclude from that difference of the PMs I can transfer my knowledge from one game to another and know how the PMs of this game look like
- conclude from that I am scum

And all that in a post made only _two minutes_ after he stated I would know from the PM. Never I am going to believe that a townie would gather this "evidence" in only two minutes and can "know" from that for sure I am scum and vote me.

[TGGC]

You want me to assume Nether did everything bolded before voting. Given the time frame mentioned why do you assume he did such a thorough job as opposed to simply searching you threads and seeing if you were scum with roleblocker before?

Maybe you should read my posts and understand them, or playing this game is useless...

I assume the opposite: he did not have do to such a thorough job, because he already knows he is scum (Netherspite and his partner). Would you vote someone, because you think he must know the PMs of this game because he played a game in 2011 without even checking the differences of the PMs in those two games?

[TGGC]

But your making too much out the role PM thing. Nether says he checked the game to see if you were ever scum with roleblocker. He didn't say he compared the two role PMs before voting (and we both seem to agree there wasn't time). You are suggesting that town would do that. I feel that town would not.

Furthermore your creating a strawman by suggesting that Nether's reason for voting is because he felt you should know the role PMs of this game based upon your knowledge of your 2011 game.

Oh god, please start reading!

You've seen the role PM, you know how it looks like and you obviously know that you'd know whether your team has Mafia RB or not if you were Mafia Cop.
You're lying and I don't see any legit reason for townie to do that.

VOTE: TGGC

If I would vote someone and base it on a a role PM he has seen, I would look at the role PM. I refuse to believe town would make this statement without looking at the example PM.

[TGGC]

@TGGC

How about I

remembered

that the role PM example lists the role of the Mafia Goon's partner?
I've read those examples at the pre-game.

You read the example PMs of the game were I was scum at the beginning of this game?

Wow, all it took was me pointing out how you hadn't posted for a while to get a response.

Did you notice my post didn't abruptly end when you stopped it. And that Nether posted a fair bit before that post.

What is your problem. I post when I have time. Do you want me to wait until I have time again, because you pointed out I have not posted? How silly is that?

Yes, I noticed that Netherspite has posted before. But he had not voted before. So he looked at my old game to decide if he votes me or not. So why didn't he look closely at it? Because he is scum and he was happy to find "evidence", so he only skimmed it. And he did not see that is was not possible for me to conclude from my old game how the PMs of the current game look like.

[TGGC]

Why would he? It's hardly common knowledge that the setup has been altered some point in the last few years. If he just looked over the flips and saw you were scum with a RBer on the team why wouldn't jump to the assumption. Your entire point is that town would find the game and spend a large amount of time studying and comparing to spot minute differences. I disagree.

So if you are looking up a game, because someone should know how a role PM works, you would not look at the example PMs to actually have an idea what PM that person got. You just look at a flip from a game 3 years ago and declare: you know the PMs of that game, so you know the PM of this game, therefore you are 99% scum. Well, if you find that reasonable, there is no point in discussing with you anymore. Just go on and lynch me, I don't even understand the reasoning behind it. But please lynch Netherspite tomorrow...

Also both the role PM in that game and this game tell scum what setup they're in. So even though Nether probably didn't spend lots of time comparing contrasting the two role PMs, why the fuck does it matter.

Like the 500th time: its not about what the PM tells someone, its about how to KNOW what information the PM of someone else has. This is where those two games differ.

[TGGC]

TGGC: Don't sweat it. As I demonstrated later in the game, it's not too hard to make a mistake like that (thinking that town shouldn't know that scum would know their partner's role). And in your position I might have made that doc claims too. If I were to offer you advice, it's this: If you're clearly wrong about something when you're scum, it's often better to just admit that you made a mistake. A good part of the reason I started scumreading you was because it looked suspicious to me that you wouldn't back down from what you'd said.

As I already mentioned in the dead topic, the point was not to survive but to not give out any information about my partner. So it was best to keep talking about this instead of finding some new nonsense to talk about whole day 2. Winning this game by myself was not very likely, just take a look were I came from.

[TGGC]

BTW: WOuld have loved to see Nether survive N2.

[TGGC]

There are players who wouldn't CC a protective role in that situation

Someone in this game adviced not to CC.