Newbie 1546: Binary Trolls (Game Over!)

[Netherspite]

Hello town

By the way, I want to warn you. If you consider having non-standard opinion / being the most active person / asking lots of questions looking useless / voting only when having big case on someone (except RVS) as scummy, just lynch me right away because I will do all of that

VOTE: GIF

Kill the IC >:)

How dare you? =O

VOTE: Dyslexicon for talking to himself

[Netherspite]

I've learned in my previous game that some players tend to scumread some of these behaviors.
I'm not going to stop doing so just because someone considers it scummy. This is my playstyle and my way of scum-hunting.
If someone considering it absolutely scummy and would lynch for that - go ahead

[Netherspite]

By the way, here is my first question.

@lolbabe

, are you considering any of listed behaviors as scummy?

[Netherspite]

Well, I usually ask questions that can look useless because I don't think revealing the true purpose of the question is the way to go in scum-hunting. The more obvious your intention is the more easy it is to provide the "correct" answer to look towny.
So of course I will try to make my questions look useless and pointless to make them more hard to dodge.
I'll disclose my intentions later in the game when I've got all the information I like.

So, lets proceed with more questions Love them!

@lolbabe

, do you consider hiding the scumbuddy at the cost of revealing yourself at the beginning of the game is the good scumplay?

@GIF

, do you know that GIF is outdated? Can I call you PNG? j/k, don't take it seriously

@bananas34

, do you consider OMGUS vote really belonging to the RVS stage?

[Netherspite]

Do you consider questions I asked so far "silly" ?

[Netherspite]

I'd rather classify it as a joke, but w/e

[Netherspite]

PPS. I'm sorry everyone for the wall of text

Oh, you didn't see my walls of text yet.
Your post is not a wall in any way

@Luca Blight

That slight buddying... Doesn't ping my scum-radar to be honest.
Both town and scum can do it in this manner.

Oh, by the way. If I'd say I like you, would you consider me buddying with you as well?

[Netherspite]

Wait wait wait.
While I agree with the statement that "buddying can be a sign of scum", I find your reasoning kinda weird.

First you say that reassuring someone who could quite easily be scum is bad because scum will feel nice and relaxed early.
Second you say that it is scum who is likely to do buddying. Obviously scum won't buddy their scum partner (except for the WIFOM sake) because this can draw suspicion to them. But if scum won't buddy scum then your whole reasoning is wrong. You say that scum most likely will do that and it's good for the scum to be the buddying target.

Besides that, I totally not agree with scum having profit of someone buddying them. Just because it will most likely draw more suspicion to them instead of making them more town looking.

Also, I would rather prefer scum feeling nice and relaxed early. Just because it increases the chance they'll do some mistake because of assumption that they're not the main suspects and no one looks closely at what they post.

I find your post rather weird. Your logic is flawed, either intentionally (because you just try to accuse someone for buddying because town would do that) or unintentionally. Considering you're SE, I doubt the latter.
Hoping to see more of the content from you further into D1 before I'll be able to build some more complete picture.

[Netherspite]

Oh you meant a RQS (Random Questioning Stage) questions.

yeah those are scummy

RQS questions are usually just frowned upon because there are not many questions that can progress the game.
Also, I'm never outdated.

No, not really.
I mean, while I like the idea of RQS (not in the sense of helping the game progress but in the sense of having some fun and getting to know each other a bit better in the beginning of the game), that question wasn't part of it.
I ask lots of question throughout the game.
As I've explained previously, some of them will be "filler" questions while some of them will give me useful information to support / deny my theories.
Few days before the deadline I'll share what I've learned and post my whole case on my main suspects.
This is actually Netherspite's ScumHunting Method™

By the way, I like your answer to my question

@Luca Blight

, am I buddying the IC here ? Should I be lynched for that?

So you didn't place a random vote in fear of someone getting quicklynched? The odds of something like that happening is very low because a lot of people fear L-1 wagons too much and will start to unvote even before L-1 for the fear of lollynching.

I'd like to second this and share some experience: most of the time people will not even place the random vote if it will lead to L-1. And if it will, someone else will unvote asap just for the sake of avoiding mislynches (townies) / gaining some towncred (scum).

===

PEdit:

@Luca Blight

, I like your second post.
Just because you insist on flawed parts of your logic, ignore some of points I made and considering my slight suspicion towards you as a defensive mode and a threat.
It's kind of funny.

Anyway, I'll once more repeat the point you completely ignored.
How exactly having scum feeling relaxed and nice can give scum any profit if that can lead them to making more mistakes assuming no one watches them closely?

[Netherspite]

So, can I sum your words up as "if someone buddies someone then it's most likely scum buddying scum" ?

[Netherspite]

Well, you're saying things that contradict to each other.

Lets go into details.
We are talking about "buddying". We won't define this word here as it should be pretty obvious for both me and you.

So we're talking about who will more likely "buddy" who.
I'll define "normal conditions" as a state when probability of every person buddying every other person equal regardless of alignment of the both.
I'll also call someone who is performing the buddying "buddying subject", and someone who is the target of it "buddying object".
There are exactly 5 possibilities here:

1. Normal conditions. In this case you can't do any conclusions of buddying subject and/or object's alignment because there is equal chance that someone else will be buddying someone else.

2. Town buddying town is more likely than in normal conditions. In this case you should generally townread both buddying subject and buddying object as the chance of town buddying town is higher than any other combinations.

3. Scum buddying town is more likely than in normal conditions. This contradicts to your words as you said that it's giving more profit to the scum when the scum is buddying object. Why would scum buddy town if it'll give more profit to the scum if he'd buddy his scum partner? And if you still think that scum would buddy town just so no one will suspect them both for that, why then you mention that being a buddying object is profitting the scum if it does not matter in the context?

4. Town buddying scum is more likely than in normal conditions. This contradicts to both your vote (your voted buddying subject and not buddying object) and the logic (town does not know that his target is scum so why would town chosing this specific target would be more likely? In fact, it is even less likely than town buddying town just because there are more townies than scum).

5. Scum buddying scum is more likely than in normal conditions. You just said that this is not the case and you don't think so.

So, your posts contradict to any of the possibilities besides 1 and 2. Yet you tend to make some scumreads out of the buddying fact.
Please explain it as I don't see any logic in your words at this point.

[Netherspite]

I'm not over-complicating the matter, I'm rather splitting it down into small bits to explain what I feel wrong in your logic.

Why are you saying that "town buddying town" is less likely? If I find someone's post logical and agree with it, why can't I admit it? Why should I hide it?
I don't see how it is always "deceitful move". It

can

be deceitful move, but not any more probable than genuine townie read on another person.

===

Scum buddying town - the most likely, in my opinion, because scum have the most to gain from 'buddying' someone they know is town, in the hope they will reciprocate the read.

So initially you're saying that it's more likely for the scum to be the target of buddying because if profits the scum to feel relaxed.
Now you say that it's actually more likely for the town to be the target of the buddying. Can you settle in some single opinion and not jump from one to another?

Scum buddying scum - less likely, but certainly not impossible. Probably more likely to happen later in the game where tactical conditions allow, but a potential daring early strategy perhaps.

First you deny such possibility now you admit it. Okay, okay...

===

PEdit:

How do you know he is newb? He may be new to this site, but he certainly seems more familiar with the game than a rank newb would be, so could have experience playing elsewhere.

Can you explain why that quote in particular is a towntell? It's not as if there's any negative consequence to him saying it, it seems like he is just making an early excuse for his future behaviour which he can refer back to if need be.

Yes, I'm more familiar with the game than a rank newb would be.
I've played it before IRL and in SCII.
It is kinda different from the forum-based mafia though.
So no, you can't consider something I'm doing towny just because newbscum wouldn't do that.

Regarding excuses... It is not an excuse.
It is more like a statement that I won't adjust my playstyle just because someone does not like it.

[Netherspite]

but right now you could be reassuring someone who could quite easily be mafia at this point in the game, which would make them feel nice and relaxed early on which isn't what we want.

Who would get more out of buddying at this early stage of the game? Clearly mafia.

May be I am blind or stupid, but you are saying that it is profitting the mafia to be the buddying object.

So, can I sum your words up as "if someone buddies someone then it's most likely scum buddying scum" ?

Where did I say that? Are you deliberately trying to misrepresent me as I never said anything like that.

And here you say that this being more likely than, say, townie buddying townie.

Where do I read you wrong?

===

Do you say that townreading someone is absolutely impossible at this stage of the game?
Why do you scumread someone and vote him then? Are the only permitted reads at this point scumreads?

[Netherspite]

1. So you don't consider scum buddying scum more likely than town buddying town, okay. You also consider scum buddying town more likely than any other case (post 52). So using your logic, it should be more possible that I'm town than I'm scum (if

Carli

is scum then it's more possible and if she's town then it's equally possible, so overall it's more possible), yet you don't agree when

GiF

saying that.
So I'll ask it to clarify: what reads do you have on me so far?

2. You still didn't answer what exactly would get mafia from buddying townie?
Also,

Carli

and

GiF

buddied me in your own words, so do you consider them being a scumteam?

3. You call it a RVS vote yet your reasoning was not really proper for RVS (involving game-related arguments). Why?

[Netherspite]

Well, the cop you mentioned was not very smart if he allowed some buddying to get him confirming someone as townie without checking...
Overall, I wouldn't buddy anyone as both town and scum for the sake of buddying itself because it makes no sense and does not give any profit. However, your example makes me less confident about this. If townies can be that stupid, I have to admit that buddying can be profitable for scum.

Regarding RVS, I've read you wrong, you're right.

===

To sum the discussion up, mostly our argument was caused by different points of view and different experience in previous games. Despite initially I gave you slight leaning scum read, I don't read you as townie or scum now (null read).

[Netherspite]

@Luca Blight

Do you consider RVS stage over since your vote wasn't an RVS vote?

[Netherspite]

I agree on that.
However, we are kind of stuck at this point since most of other players are lurking since RVS.
I'd like to hear more from them. The little amount of content does not allow to ask them any specific questions and I don't like it.

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

Regarding excuses... It is not an excuse.
It is more like a statement that I won't adjust my playstyle just because someone does not like it.

And yes, I'm not going to use that as excuse later either.

I wonder though, why are you so concerned about whether I've "thrown my shield" already or not? Does it matter that much at this point?

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

A pair of quick questions if you don't mind

Do you prefer playing scum or town and why?
What do you think about my argument with

Luca Blight

?

[Netherspite]

Vote: Carli

For buddying that Netherspite guy.

I like you.

And I like you for this irony

His logic isn't wrong. You've been misinterpreting him and set up random parameters for things that seems to make sense in your head but isn't necessarily a mirror image of the truth (lol what is that anyway?) or a general consensus (more relevant).

In fact, it was rather different opinions on the same subject and some misreading of him from me.

Regardless I have a sliiight townread on Neth (I so want to have cute nicknames for you all and so I wanted to call you Nettie. If you take offense or want me to call you something different, please let me know, apologizes in advance and feel free to call me funny stuff :3), just because he is so out there and that is bold. However I don't know a lot about his playstyle (apart from what he has told himself which yeah..) so I don't have a good basis for judging alignemnt.

There is a nice russian saying that can be roughly translated as "You can even call me a pot, just don't put me into the oven."

And if you like cute nicknames... May I call you Lexie?

To me Carli and GIF have some explaining to do. Shiro hasn't given much of an impression of me as a lot of what she said was echoing other stuff (not really anything wrong about that though).

In fact, I kinda don't like

Shiro

's posts because of that. There's not much to cling to. Some neutral posts not giving any real information completely.

[Netherspite]

@Carli

I can't get rid of feeling that your posts are just an attempt to dodge any possible suspicion towards you and are not containing any useful information.
May be it is caused by the complicated wording and my terrible english skills though.

Anyway,

And do you think a speedlynch is likely?

What do you think of his clarity and logic?

Why would I think a speedlynch would be likely if I told GIF I disagree with D1 lynches due to lack of information ?

I think he was asking this in context of you refusing to vote during RVS providing the possibility of speedlynch as the argument.

[Netherspite]

So it seems I'm not the only one having this feeling off

Carli

's posts.

@Carli

, why are you so concerned about avoiding any suspicion towards you?

[Netherspite]

vote:lolbabe

Vote: Lolbabe

These two are probably not scumbuddies, not together anyway, because even at the RVS phase it would be too telling to vote one player one right after another.

And why would scum do that?

So, can I sum your words up as "if someone buddies someone then it's most likely scum buddying scum" ?

What is more concerning is your apparent view that scum would never buddy scum! What else are you going to blatantly overlook?

Wording in both quotes gives off strange vibes. It's like both Nether and Luca rephrase the other's words to make them look worse. They can't probably be scum, both of them, but meh.

I did rephrase him and ask him to make sure he really intended to say what his words looked like for me.
In fact, as I noticed later, I didn't get one of his posts correctly and had different opinion on one of his points. It led to misunderstanding and I don't really think he intended to say what I initially thought he did.

There is a nice russian saying that can be roughly translated as "You can even call me a pot, just don't put me into the oven."

Hey you know Russian? Sorry for off, everybody.

Yeah, I do

[Netherspite]

@Mod

I love the flavor

[Netherspite]

Personally I don't think any townie should have survivalist attitude at this point of the game.
For example, if my mislynch will give town a good clues about who is the scum then I wouldn't mind dying because in the end I'll still win if the scum will get caught.
Townie's goal is to have all scum lynched, not to survive.

So I find this survivalist attitude very strange to be honest.
This can be however caused by the low experience of Carli.
I've almost got caught on this trick in my previous game though, believed some player playing newbtown while he was scum. Managed to find it out later though.

[Netherspite]

Actually I'm more concerned about others lurking than about her being survivalistic.
There's simply not enough content to make any conclusions on half of players in this game. And this will most likely end up in mislynch.
Getting tired of all these "I'll definitely catch up a bit later".

Anyway, I'll try to start some discussion here to get some more information.

@Shiro

Who do you find most mysterious players in this game and what would you like to hear from them to make them less mysterious?
Please be specific

@lolbabe

Who you find the most muddiest besides

Carli

?

@GiF

Who do you townread at this point and why?

VictorDeAngelo

Did you forget about this game again? Do you find this game boring?
What alignment do you prefer to play and why?

Dyslexicon

Didn't "today" end already?
What would you do if you'd be at L-1? Would you keep lurking?

[Netherspite]

Who you find the most muddiest besides Carli?

Not muddiest but getting more attention than the others - you and Luca. What about you? Do you have any town and scum reads?

Hard to make reads on everyone at this point because of lack of activity.

I tend to townread Luca, GiF and you so far.
Slight suspicion at Carli and Shiro.

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

Well, your posts feel like fluff in some way.
Of course you are answering my questions, but overall I don't see you scumhunting at all and it makes me slightly suspicious towards you.

[Netherspite]

@toolenduso

Welcome

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

So basically your reasoning for intention to vote

VictorDeAngelo

is that if

Carli

is maf then her partner is lurker.
Why don't you just vote

Carli

straight then? Because there's more players lurking or semi-lurking in this game and you assume that

Carli

is maf in your reasoning, so why not just vote her?
And if you don't think she's maf then why do you base your reasoning on this assumption?

[Netherspite]

By the way, the first post of

toolenduso

looks like genuine townie catch up post.
I tend to give him town leaning read so far, hoping to see him participating in the game further though to get some more established reads.

[Netherspite]

Okay, so basically you would vote some most lurking lurker out of all lurkers just because he is most lurking lurkers.
To be honest, I don't see scum-

VictorDeAngelo

to lurk that bad as scum. It is possible, of course, but it would be stupid scum play just because someone will definitely suspect him just for lurking.

So does it mean that you have absolutely no scum reads at this point (because voting lurkers would be desperate move)? I'm not that surprised, because you did nothing to scumhunt during the game so far, but please answer anyway.
Also, do you have at least some town reads?

And no, I never said I think you're a scumteam.
I said I slightly suspect you both.

[Netherspite]

Fix: "he is most lurking lurker".

[Netherspite]

You seem to be misrepping me.

I'll repeat once again: I don't strongly scumread any of you. I do slightly suspect you both.
I don't really exclude the possibility of you both being a scumteam, I consider it as a possible option. However, I'm not

that

sure in that to vote yet.
With at least two players lurking at this point I don't think we should be eager to perform a lynch now and end this day. We have 5 days more to decide and I still hope to hear from our lurkers to make a final decision on my vote for this day. By the way, here you can see what I usually do with lurkers instead of just scumreading them solely for the fact they're lurking like you do...
Also, as I mentioned in my first posts, I never really vote without a strong case outside of RVS (well, I can if it's close to deadline). That's why I'm not voting.

Also, I find it fun that you're preferring GiF's read over yours. Don't you consider the possibility of IC being the scum? Or do you

know

that he is not the scum?

[Netherspite]

Well, you still don't make an impression of someone who does scumhunt.
Right now I'm considering you equally suspicious to Carli.

I'd really like to see some more scumhunting from you if you're town.

[Netherspite]

Do you understand that if we won't scumhunt we'll lose? Are you playing against your role goal?
Or is your role goal actually to make town lose?

[Netherspite]

Basically I find "you're not scumhunting" a pretty strong argument on its own.
If you're town you should want to win. The only way to win is to scumhunt. You can do it in different ways, yes, but if you'll just sit there and wait for the scum to spoil some clue for you - you won't get far, really.

Besides that, I find most of your posts just fluff. I can't remember a single useful post from you in this game. You attempt to not draw any suspicion to you, you never push anyone, you only answer questions and that's not how the town should play for win in my opinion.
May be I'm wrong, and there is secret ninja tactic that allows to find scum without doing anything, in that case more experienced players please correct me.

[Netherspite]

Yeaahh...just don't expect binary. I no speak the language...

I was so waiting for the next flavor text

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

I have just a single other game on these forums, you can find it in my wiki or in my posts history.
So far there were not much good moments to ask those questions looking useless. I've asked some though in the beginning of the game.

lolbabe looked more townie because of her reads.
And Dyslexicon does not look townie or scummy, more like null read so far because of the lack of content.

Also your manner of answering my questions was a scum tell for me, I'll explain it a bit later if I'll decide to vote you.

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

May be I worded it wrong, I meant that I find her thought process logical and town-driven.

And yes, I'll elaborate, but closer to deadline.

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

Well, you confirm it once again.
When I put you under very soft pressure you start defending more and more aggressively, you reveal your survivalistic mindset which is logical to have for the scum but pretty wrong for the town.
The manner of you answering my questions is like you only concerned about your own survival and do not care about whether we'll find scum or not.
And instead of doing something else you just keep doing it and even become more aggressive.

After I pointed it out, you finally tried to mimic some scumhunting in #163. Yet it still was just a self-defense and an attempt to move the attention to someone else.

So basically, I think you are scum because:
1. You never scumhunt and don't care about finding the scum at all despite saying the opposite.
2. You are answering on my questions with defensive manner, you still don't care about others.
3. You end up raging while I stated that I suspect you only slightly.
4. You are really concerned about being lynched (or speed lynched) while no one else except me is really suspecting you at this point.

This over-defense and complete lack or any scumhunt makes it obvious that you're either scum or a terrible town player.
And at this point you made me thinking that the first is way more possible.

I'm putting my vote on you because it's 4 days until deadline already and I see you as the most possible scum at this point.
I still hope to hear more from our lurkers though.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shiro

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

Survivalism at this point of the game is only logical for scum.
Townies will win regardless of whether they'll die or not. They need to find scum.
So genuine townie under suspicion at D1 should be spewing reads and questions to other players rather than asking "Why you see me scummy?" just because he wants to find out who is the scum more than to survive himself.

1. Half of players being inactive does not excuse you for not scumhunting among the other half.

2. Your questions to them came after I stated that not scumhunting is a scummy behavior. Intention behind these questions looked more like scum trying to mimic scumhunting when pointed out than like townie genuinely scumhunting.

3. That "bloody ... bloody ... bloody" looked really like rage. It was soft rage but still, didn't look good.

4. How exactly can quicklynch happen if the only one suspecting you is me? I wasn't even sure whether I really want to vote you or not. It was

slight

suspicion. Why did you mention a "speedlynch" which was not going to happen?

Over-defense is when you really concerned about why are you being suspected.
Why should townie care about that? Scum of course wants to know the reason he's being suspected just because he needs to adjust his behavior to look less suspicious.
Dodging suspicion is the key for winning as scum and you were doing exactly that till now.

[Netherspite]

I'm usually posting my case later during the day because I want to gather as much info as I can to build the case and to be sure that I'm voting the right person.
You however made it more quick than it takes usually because your behavior confirms my case a lot.

Regarding the speedlynch concern... There is a wagon at L-2 at this moment. Do you think that posting a case, say, 2 days before the deadline would switch the wagon to you so fast? I doubt so. So, again, why are you so concerned about it?

Well, anyway.
Lets imagine you're townie.
Lets try to find the scum together then? Share your thoughts finally. As you can see, we are not going to get lurkers speaking long enough before the deadline. So there won't be enough time to build a wagon on any of them.
Do you townread everyone who is not lurking? Do you think that it's possible to build a wagon on some random lurker to avoid a mislynch? Do you think it is a good idea?

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

In fact, I think that there is a scum among lurkers.
However, it's hard to find out who of them is the scum because they're not posting.
So I'd rather go with my top suspect among posting players than with some random lurker who most likely will be townie (just because it's simply high probability, since there are so many lurkers and only 1-2 of them are scum).
I prefer making a decision based on information rather than randomly.

[Netherspite]

Carli is my second suspect after you. So I'll definitely join the policy lynch in case we won't make another decision till deadline.

[Netherspite]

I wonder why some people join the game they ain't interested to play.

[Netherspite]

Well, as I said, I came to the opinion that lurking is usually just a null tell. Both town and scum can go lurk at different moments of the game regardless of its state.
I'd really like to see Carli coming back and posting something to answer to the pressure put on her. But until she does so I'd rather wait with my conclusions on her.
Shiro didn't lurk and I really don't like his/her response to the little pressure I put on him/her.
In other words, Carli is "pending" in slight scumread state for me until she posts some more while Shiro is already determined as more strong scumread.

[Netherspite]

Hmm, this meta analysis feels weak for me to be honest, it does add up a bit to the suspicion though.

Regarding the dissimilarity, he/she started playing defensively only because I started to push him/her.
I'll read up the 1533 a bit to see if that was the case there.

[Netherspite]

Well, as it seems, Shiro was never under suspicion during D1 in 1533.
And when someone asked him/her any question looking even remotely like leading to the suspection towards him/her, he/she rushed into detailed explanations just like he/she did in this game.

This is still not a complete evidence until there is a game where he/she was townie and played differently.

[Netherspite]

It's not a scum tell by itself but if you tend to only answer questions and never scumhunt yourself, it's not very townie.

[Netherspite]

@VictorDeAngelo

Ain't it the monday you promised us to post at already?
[sarcasm]Or did you mean next monday?[/sarcasm]

[Netherspite]

Welcome, replacers!

Also,

@BlueBloodedToffee

, I've read some game with your participation and I loved your signature Totally agree with that, people can manipulate their meta.

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

Do you feel it is good idea to put someone at

L-1

right after he/she was replaced?
Why?

[Netherspite]

@BlueBloodedToffee

Well, my vote came with like full reasoning for it:

@Shiro

Well, you confirm it once again.
When I put you under very soft pressure you start defending more and more aggressively, you reveal your survivalistic mindset which is logical to have for the scum but pretty wrong for the town.
The manner of you answering my questions is like you only concerned about your own survival and do not care about whether we'll find scum or not.
And instead of doing something else you just keep doing it and even become more aggressive.

After I pointed it out, you finally tried to mimic some scumhunting in #163. Yet it still was just a self-defense and an attempt to move the attention to someone else.

So basically, I think you are scum because:
1. You never scumhunt and don't care about finding the scum at all despite saying the opposite.
2. You are answering on my questions with defensive manner, you still don't care about others.
3. You end up raging while I stated that I suspect you only slightly.
4. You are really concerned about being lynched (or speed lynched) while no one else except me is really suspecting you at this point.

This over-defense and complete lack or any scumhunt makes it obvious that you're either scum or a terrible town player.
And at this point you made me thinking that the first is way more possible.

I'm putting my vote on you because it's 4 days until deadline already and I see you as the most possible scum at this point.
I still hope to hear more from our lurkers though.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shiro

Basically it's about his reaction to pressure and lack of scumhunting.
Also, putting someone at L-1 right after he/she was replaced out when it's 6 days until deadline does not look town-driven decision for me.



===

PEdit:

@Shiro

, replace is a null tell in 99.9% of all cases.

[Netherspite]

@BlueBloodedToffee

, also, mind explaining your vote as well?

[Netherspite]

@BlueBloodedToffee

While I agree that playing defensive ain't a strong scum tell on its own, I believe that it's strength increases because of both early stage of the game and the other points I made.
Combined altogether it makes enough evidence for me to vote him/her.
If there will be someone who will deserve more suspicion I'll move my vote.

PEdit:

@Shiro

Being at L-whatever with any amount of suspicion does not make replacement any less null tell.
I was doing this mistake previously but now I'm pretty sure replacement is always a null tell. Anyone can rage quit or get consumed by RL. Regardless of the alignment.

[Netherspite]

We shouldn't pretend Carli never did anything scummy but we shouldn't just lynch her without listening to her replacer either.

I did this mistake a bit differently, but it still was about judging over people's alignment or intentions because of the replacement fact. It was just plain wrong.
Replacement out is a null tell and good manners are to allow replacer to take some breath and to talk before attacking him.

[Netherspite]

Putting at L-1 creates unnecessary extra pressure while the replacer isn't even here yet.

[Netherspite]

@TGGC

[irony]I thought we have 2 scum in this game.
You opened my eyes [/irony]

In fact, you seem to be skimming through most of the topic despite there's not much to read (just 8 pages, really...)
Also it looks like you're going to help getting another wagon going because you're close to the lynch.

Don't like your opener so far, but will wait with the conclusions until you post more.

[Netherspite]

Reading his predecessor is pretty much useless since he already knows his alignment.

[Netherspite]

This post throws up all kinds of red flags. Specifically "a few days before deadline I'll reveal what my questions yielded me".
1. Fuck that, if you think you've found scum don't keep it to yourself.
2. You expect this game to go to deadline?

Well, as we can see, it came almost to the deadline and the deadline was extended. I had some kind of gut feeling that it will go this way, also my previous newbie game wasn't very active too so I got used to have every game day coming to deadline. I thought we had terrible activity in that game, but gosh, how wrong was I... This game is way worse. Hope the replacements will make it going.
And yes, I'd reveal my findings earlier if I'd find the scum. The nature of this game however does not let to be sure in someone's scumminess for 100% at any point during D1, so I tend to gather evidences and build my case for a while, and then pop it out altogether. You can dislike it, but as I said, I won't play differently just because you don't like my playstyle. This is how I scumhunt.

"I've been lynched for these reasons before " to me sounds like an "inb4 bad players kill me" which just sounds newbie as shit.

I wasn't lynched in my other newbie game. I was accused for my playstyle though. Just correcting.

Shiro putting that slot at l-1 now is making me hesitant to hammer

Is it the only thing stopping you from hammering?
I really don't think we should be eager to lynch anyone considering the deadline extension. Every extra post from possible lynchees is extra information to interprete their flips tomorrow.

GiF isn't being active and that's annoying in an IC

It's sad because he was way more active in the beginning and I liked him (as IC).

And I can already see this is gonna be one of those games where nobody talks, so I ask right now that if you find yourself not wanting to post to just replace out. This game requires people willing to play.

Exactly this.
If you don't want to play, please just replace out.

[Netherspite]

I had to clarify I guess, newbies usually don't manipulate their meta just because there are not many games to build said "meta".
Besides that, I said that this meta analysis can't be used as evidence unless we have examples of her town games.

[Netherspite]

I'm weighing this Shiro vote in my head. It definitely looks weird to me but I don't know why scum would wait until that moment, when it would look more suspicious than ever, to switch their vote to the leading wagon.

He/she did it in response to

BlueBloodedToffee

question why didn't he vote yet.
I guess it was an attempt to look better, he/she just didn't think better about it and did a mistake.

[Netherspite]

Consider revising how you scumhunt. My favorite games on this site go too quick to wait for 2 week deadlines. A game I recently died in had a day that only lasted six hours and it was fucking awesome.

I'll definitely revise it when I'll start playing in non-newbie games where the activity is higher. Thanks for the advice anyway.

Because she did that a lot this game and that kind of passive language reeks of someone trying to stay on everyone's good side. If you said she behaved that way as town she'd just be a polite person, but you say she didn't.

More confident in my read now.

I'm getting unsure in my vote to be honest. Carli was my second suspect and more and more evidences for her scumminess appear.
I also really didn't like how her replacer just jumped into Shiro's wagon. As I wrote, it looked like an attempt to move the focus from him and get another wagon going.
I really don't believe Shiro and Carli can be both scum. It would be too strong play to bus each other so seriously, highly unlikely.
I don't believe there's no scum among them both either. I think I'll re-read the topic tomorrow (since it's 3:25 am here at the moment) to decide who of them is more likely to flip scum.

PEdit:

How can scum alignment stop a player from learning how to scumhunt on the others' example?
So the lack of scumhunting argument (and its extentions) stay.
How can scum alignment force a player to play defensively and to be overly concerned about himself being suspicious?
So this argument stays as well.

[Netherspite]

The key point of my case on Shiro is that his play comes from scum mindset.
Townie playing like this is just plain useless. If he is townie he clearly does not play for his win condition.
I don't believe this can be fully explained by lack of townie experience. He was playing other games as scum, he had seen many examples of how town plays.
Also the common sense should help you to get the idea of how to play as townie and that you have to play for your role goal, not for your own survival.

[Netherspite]

A fun exercise for

Shiro

and

TGGC

. Imagine a hypothetical rule of the game: if any of you is getting lynched and flips town then the other one will get lynched D2 instantly.
Would you vote the other one in such case and why?

===

Going to sleep now, please don't hammer anyone until I wake and finish my analysis

if you're townie

.

[Netherspite]

@JohnnyFarrar

Playing against townie's role goal is not scummy play?
What is a scummy play then? Define and provide examples, please.

@VictorDeAngelo

How to understand this "we" ?...

[Netherspite]

I've got caught into "he's just a newbie, he's not scummy" trap once and not going to do that again.
Shiro does not look like a newbie town. He/she looks like scum.
I'm into re-reading the whole topic at the moment though, not excluding the possibility of switching my vote after doing it.

[Netherspite]

Hmm, it seems that Carli also did all the things I accused Shiro for: not scumhunting and playing defensively.
Also all the weird things others noticed and the fact that TGGC decided to help getting another wagon going asap in his only post in this game...
I think it's a good moment to put TGGC at L-1.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TGGC

Don't hammer him yet by the way, let him defend himself or claim.

[Netherspite]

TGGC is at L-1

[Netherspite]

Not going to claim? People usually do it at L-1.

[Netherspite]

@Mod

You're welcome

[Netherspite]

So you've read every post yet you don't know that Carli already claimed and it was broadly discussed?
Very well. I'm happy with my vote on you then.

[Netherspite]

@TGGC

Half the players were lurking. Obviously they didn't notice

Anyway, I'm sure that you would notice the VT claim if you would read the topic.
Being lazy to read the topic while stating that you did read it + all the things you and your predecessor did = my vote will stay on you until your lynch.


P.S. The only thing that bothers me is that everyone happy with his lynch. If he's scum, where is his partner?

[Netherspite]

This was either a claim or lie.
I don't really think a PR would lie like that early in the game because it will:
1. Attract suspicion from townies.
2. Won't save from night kill because such claim is WIFOM for scum.
So basically I don't see sane PR doing it.
So it's most likely either VT claiming VT (and then it's indeed a claim) or scum lying.
If you don't consider it a claim then you're saying that you're scum?

Also, I was not going to push on your lynch before you shown obvious unfamiliarity with the game.
I don't see any specific reason for you not to say "My predecessor already claimed, why are you asking for the claim?" if you read the topic...

[Netherspite]

UNVOTE:

Post inc.

[Netherspite]

Now you sound like townie (not because of the claim but because of your thought process, I like it).

The only correction to the facts you operate with: I decided to switch my vote once I realized that Carli did all the things I accused Shiro for

plus

more suspicious things.
Also my vote was initially a trap to attempt catching you on a lie about reading the topic fully because I knew that Carli claimed VT and wondered whether you know it as well or not.
If you would mention that you know about her claim I'd unvote and switch back to Shiro.

@All

If there won't be any counterclaims I suggest to start looking for another wagon right now because we have not much time until deadline.

Considering the claim, I think it makes sense now that newbie-Carli claimed VT (she could just expect the scum to believe her claim and not realize that it's a WIFOM) and that TGGC didn't tell us about her claim.

I'd vote my second suspect now (Shiro) but I gotta re-read something considering the TGGC claim.

So please everyone post your updated reads lists and lets choose new wagon fast.
If you have something to counterclaim - do it.

[Netherspite]

Yes. And it can be easily explained as I wrote above.
I believe him unless we'll have a counterclaim.

[Netherspite]

There is no possible setup where Town Doctor can't be counterclaimed.

[Netherspite]

ah well.
still, there's only 1 out of 4 possible setups where doc claim is safe. however there was nothing for him to lose so your point is valid.

[Netherspite]

Hmm, so if he is saying the truth he'll die N1 anyway because scum will most likely kill him.
And even if he doesn't, no counterclaims mean that we have at least one investigative role who can check him at night and be sure whether he's scum or town.
Thus, we really should not lynch him D1 by any means regardless of the possibility of him being the scum risking the fake claim that can be uncounterable in 25% of cases.
===

If we assume that he's townie (and Carli was too) then we can perform some weak VCA.
I'll quote the dynamics of the votes on Carli/TGGC:

Carli (0):
Carli (1): Luca Blight
Carli (2): Luca Blight, Dyslexicon
Carli (2): Luca Blight, Dyslexicon
Carli (3): Luca Blight, Dyslexicon, Toolenduso
Carli (3): Luca Blight, Dyslexicon, Toolenduso
Carli (3): Luca Blight, Dyslexicon, Toolenduso
TGGC (3): Luca Blight, Toolenduso, Shiro
TGGC (3): Luca Blight, Toolenduso, Shiro
TGGC (4): Luca Blight, Toolenduso, Shiro, Netherspite L-1
TGGC (4): Luca Blight, Toolenduso, Shiro, Netherspite L-1
TGGC (2): Luca Blight, Shiro

Also, the declared reason of everyone jumping on his/her wagon:

Luca Blight

For buddying that Netherspite guy.

Dyslexicon

With that ^ said, I am not ignorant. I do know what the random voting stage is and what it entails/ the events of such a stage. Hence I said I would like to discuss D1 lynches because you think that it's really something we shouldn't be afraid of where I think that we need to be careful not to speedlynch a townie with no scummy vibe on them. In the end, the more town people we have the better chance we have of winning this game.

And do you think a speedlynch is likely?

Moving on, I like this Netherspite guy your play style (or the plan thereof) seems fantastic to me. Clarity and logic will help us win this game.

What do you think of his clarity and logic?

Vote: Carli

For buddying that Netherspite guy.

I like you.

{...}

To me Carli and GIF have some explaining to do.

{...}

Forgot my vote.

VOTE: Carli

<3

Toolenduso

Carli:

-The lack of a vote after commenting on others' random votes does feel a little bit like scummy hesitation/fluffposting.
-#38 feels gut-weird to me as well, perhaps a little defensive.
-#98 again feels overly cautious to me. The justification for being hesitant/scared/etc of D1 lynching is that we need to take our time when lynching because town players are valuable...now, I'm willing to give a little benefit of the doubt on this one because it takes time to learn all the little nuances of mafia, but it does add to the record of hesitation.
-The end of that same post could be diverting attention as well. It's a very good point, but it does come in the same post Carli is defending herself in.

{...}

VOTE: Carli

That's L-2.

Shiro

Yes there was. I was waiting for Carli to speak which actually bring us up to now where instead of speaking she bailed out

VOTE:TGGC

So when you read up why did you think your pre bailed after pressure ?

Netherspite

Hmm, it seems that Carli also did all the things I accused Shiro for: not scumhunting and playing defensively.
Also all the weird things others noticed and the fact that TGGC decided to help getting another wagon going asap in his only post in this game...
I think it's a good moment to put TGGC at L-1.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TGGC

Don't hammer him yet by the way, let him defend himself or claim.

Also my vote was initially a trap to attempt catching you on a lie about reading the topic fully because I knew that Carli claimed VT and wondered whether you know it as well or not.
If you would mention that you know about her claim I'd unvote and switch back to Shiro.

===========


To be honest, I hate all those votes except for

toolenduso

's vote may be. And except mine, obviously.
Weak or no reasoning. I can't follow their thought process on these votes.

The most suspicious votes for me were those coming from

Dyslexicon

and

Shiro

.
Since we can't ask

Dyslexicon

anymore, I can't resolve my bad feelings about his vote

Shiro

's vote looked too much like following an advice of

BlueBloodedToffee

, who had just replaced into the game at this point and asked him why didn't he vote.
That sequence... BlueBloodedToffee unvotes; asking Shiro why doesn't he vote; Shiro votes the target BlueBloodedToffee just unvoted. Coincidence?...

Hmm, I also don't see why

Shiro

and

Dyslexicon

/

BlueBloodedToffee

can't be scumpartners.

Shiro

taking gentle advice from more experienced scumbuddy and voting the most easy wagon...

BlueBloodedToffee

spending his whole time in the game defending his scumpartner

Shiro

and faking scumhunting by voting someone who won't get a wagon going on him for sure...
Not a 100% evidence of course, but it's the most possible scumteam from the remaining players.

I'll vote

Shiro

again because the deadline is close and I think we have to decide on D1's lynch asap.
My reasoning is already posted earlier + this post.

VOTE: Shiro


Also, tomorrow I'll post intentions behind all the questions I've asked during D1 as I promised in the beginning of the game.

[Netherspite]

Tomorrow irl. Too tired today, going to sleep in few minutes.

I've re-read posts of BlueBloodedToffee and Shiro once again having my theory in mind... and it seems like the it fits the theory pretty well.
BlueBloodedToffee teaches Shiro how to play, explains why he shouldn't ask TGGC to justify Carli's actions, etc.

[Netherspite]

@toolenduso

I wonder how you could get to this conclusion after I've explained my intentions and thought process during the entire game, but anyway.
I'll repeat the key mistakes in your post:

1. If I am scum, why would I help pushing mislynch of Carli while she would be lynched without any help and there was also a good replacement growing wagon on Shiro (since if we assume that I'm scum he's most likely townie I'd want his mislynch as much)?
2. I've explained that my vote was initially a trap / reaction test and became a real vote only after I got some confirmation for my words. After all, I was right that the Carli's claim was fake. I only was wrong about in what way it was fake (and we even are not sure in this yet).

===

Regarding counterclaims.
Personally, I'd prefer to exchange 1 PR for 1 scum, especially considering we'll still have 1 investigative PR alive.
I realize that stating this can attract more suspicion to me and make me a better lynchbait (since finding a real Doc is called a good reason for TGGC to fake claim by toolenduso). But that's my opinion.

===

There is a good chance I'll become a good lynchbait it seems.
So, I'd like to warn you in advance: townies, please don't hammer me before I wrote all I want to share with you (I'll share alot if my wagon will keep growing so you'll have more information after my flip).
Also, before voting me, please re-read BlueBloodedToffee & Shiro communication after BlueBloodedToffee replaced in and tell me it's not yelling that they're scumteam.

[Netherspite]

By the way, here is my first question.

@lolbabe

, are you considering any of listed behaviors as scummy?

That was more of a filler question than making any sense, really.
An attempt to start some discussion because at that point of the game there was no discussion going.

@lolbabe

, do you consider hiding the scumbuddy at the cost of revealing yourself at the beginning of the game is the good scumplay?

She guessed that I can play scummy to hide my scumbuddy.
I found it weird decision and since I wouldn't do it, I asked her whether she finds it a good play. She answered that she did it once but it was a game with 3 scum in it.
Not that I was perfectly satisfied by her answer but it didn't ping my scum radar.

@GIF

, do you know that GIF is outdated? Can I call you PNG? j/k, don't take it seriously

A joke. Just a joke.

@bananas34

, do you consider OMGUS vote really belonging to the RVS stage?

I don't like OMGUS votes, especially during RVS, so I wanted to hear some explanation (he didn't answer, btw).

Do you consider questions I asked so far "silly" ?

She mentioned that asking "silly" questions is wrong. Since I don't think my questions are silly, I decided to ask whether she thinks they are and why.

Oh, by the way. If I'd say I like you, would you consider me buddying with you as well?

@Luca Blight

, am I buddying the IC here ? Should I be lynched for that?
{...}
How exactly having scum feeling relaxed and nice can give scum any profit if that can lead them to making more mistakes assuming no one watches them closely?

That dreaded buddying discussion. I won't quote most of it because it's pretty useless. Intentions behind all these questions was the same: I don't think buddying is a scum tell on its own and I was arguing with Luca about it for a while.

@Shiro

I wonder though, why are you so concerned about whether I've "thrown my shield" already or not? Does it matter that much at this point?

This is where I noticed that he's too concerned about meaningless things and is not really scumhunting.

@Shiro

Do you prefer playing scum or town and why?
What do you think about my argument with

Luca Blight

?

I often ask what alignment player prefers and why, because it helps to understand their behavior in current game.
In fact, it is kind of experiment and I didn't yet decide whether this question provides any useful results or not since it's only my second game on forums.

Second question was to get finally some reads from him, it didn't really succeeded though and that made me even more suspicious about him not even trying to scumhunt or read players.

@Carli

, why are you so concerned about avoiding any suspicion towards you?

Being concerned about avoiding any suspicion is a big red flag for me.
I'm never afraid of getting suspicion if it takes it to find out the truth. Especially at D1.
Even if I'll get lynched for my questions/thoughts, town will see my flip later and will be able to use that information later.
I don't hesitate to start a hot argument with someone either because some players tend to reveal their true form when angry/arguing.
I follow the simple and easy rule: more information for the town = better.
So if someone is so concerned about dodging the suspicion during D1... It's either really newbie or scum.

vote:lolbabe

Vote: Lolbabe

These two are probably not scumbuddies, not together anyway, because even at the RVS phase it would be too telling to vote one player one right after another.

And why would scum do that?

Misread the original quote, he in fact stated that they can't be scum together.

@Shiro

Who do you find most mysterious players in this game and what would you like to hear from them to make them less mysterious?
Please be specific

I really wondered after his words, if he finds some players mysterious, why doesn't he do anything to learn more?
Basically it was some kind of attempt to get him scumhunting.

@lolbabe

Who you find the most muddiest besides

Carli

?

Attempt to get some reads.

@GiF

Who do you townread at this point and why?

Same.

VictorDeAngelo

Did you forget about this game again? Do you find this game boring?
What alignment do you prefer to play and why?

Explained the second question above.
In conjunction with the first question it was an attempt to learn about why is he ignoring our game.
Is it because he got an alignment he doesn't like ?
I never said it before so I will do it now: I believe he is lurking so much because he got a VT role in this game and he is bored with some newbie game where he is just a VT.

Dyslexicon

Didn't "today" end already?
What would you do if you'd be at L-1? Would you keep lurking?

Was kind of desperate question since he was lurking a lot.

@Shiro

So basically your reasoning for intention to vote

VictorDeAngelo

is that if

Carli

is maf then her partner is lurker.
Why don't you just vote

Carli

straight then? Because there's more players lurking or semi-lurking in this game and you assume that

Carli

is maf in your reasoning, so why not just vote her?
And if you don't think she's maf then why do you base your reasoning on this assumption?

Self-explanatory questions. He voted lurker just for the fact he is lurking and because he's the most likely Carli partner. That looked just weird.

So does it mean that you have absolutely no scum reads at this point (because voting lurkers would be desperate move)? I'm not that surprised, because you did nothing to scumhunt during the game so far, but please answer anyway.
Also, do you have at least some town reads?

Pretty much just continuation of the previous post.
Still attempting to get some explanation from him for his weird vote and some reads.

Also, I find it fun that you're preferring GiF's read over yours. Don't you consider the possibility of IC being the scum? Or do you

know

that he is not the scum?

Seems like I was the first who noticed this weirdness.
He prefers GiF's opinion over his own?...

Do you understand that if we won't scumhunt we'll lose? Are you playing against your role goal?
Or is your role goal actually to make town lose?

A bit of sarcasm here.

Regarding the speedlynch concern... There is a wagon at L-2 at this moment. Do you think that posting a case, say, 2 days before the deadline would switch the wagon to you so fast? I doubt so. So, again, why are you so concerned about it?

Does anybody remember how Shiro was really concerned about getting

speedlynched

when he had no votes on him and there was a wagon at L-2? Don't you find it weird?

Lets try to find the scum together then? Share your thoughts finally. As you can see, we are not going to get lurkers speaking long enough before the deadline. So there won't be enough time to build a wagon on any of them.
Do you townread everyone who is not lurking? Do you think that it's possible to build a wagon on some random lurker to avoid a mislynch? Do you think it is a good idea?

Continuing here. He in fact still was not going to contribute to the scumhunting and kept his thoughts (if he had any) with him.

@VictorDeAngelo

Ain't it the monday you promised us to post at already?
[sarcasm]Or did you mean next monday?[/sarcasm]

Some more sarcasm.

@Shiro

Do you feel it is good idea to put someone at

L-1

right after he/she was replaced?
Why?

Not letting a replacer to speak before putting him at L-1 is not really a good play imo.

@BlueBloodedToffee

, also, mind explaining your vote as well?

He voted VDA and didn't provide a single word of explanation for it...

Shiro putting that slot at l-1 now is making me hesitant to hammer

Is it the only thing stopping you from hammering?
I really don't think we should be eager to lynch anyone considering the deadline extension. Every extra post from possible lynchees is extra information to interprete their flips tomorrow.

That was weird for me because I don't think hammering Carli/TGGC would be a good idea even without that Shiro's vote.

A fun exercise for

Shiro

and

TGGC

. Imagine a hypothetical rule of the game: if any of you is getting lynched and flips town then the other one will get lynched D2 instantly.
Would you vote the other one in such case and why?

This had a potential of attraction suspicion but I believed that I'll learn something from it.
A genuine townie answer for this question would be something like "I wouldn't vote because I can't be 100% sure in anyone's alignment and thus if he's town we'll lose 4 townies."
So basically it's a bad for the town to vote with such rule in place (if the rule is only valid for some specific players and I worded it exactly in this way).
I didn't like TGGC's answer to this question, but it does not matter now as we won't lynch him today no matter what.

@JohnnyFarrar

Playing against townie's role goal is not scummy play?
What is a scummy play then? Define and provide examples, please.

This was a little argument on whether not scumhunting is scum play or newbie town play.

@VictorDeAngelo

How to understand this "we" ?...

He spoke like a hydra while he can't be hydra in newbie games.
I found it just weird.

[Netherspite]

====

Here I explain intentions behind all questions I asked in this game.

I'll post some conclusions below.

[Netherspite]

So, with all these intentions on the table, I think it's now obvious why I think that Shiro is scum.
It was a long way, many weird things... I tried to get some towny behavior from him to counter my theory but he refused to do it.
He was playing against town for the whole D1 so I can't get myself into believing he is town.

Also his jumping into Carli's wagon was the worst. Putting at L-1 just because someone said him to vote?
He was as sure that she's scum earlier yet he decided to vote VDA because he's lurking and he's the most likely Carli's scumpartner?... Now he decides to vote her instead of VDA? Was it because I pointed it out how weird VDA vote was?

Just read again all my questions towards him and my comments. It's enough of the evidence to lynch him.

And as I said in my wall of text, I'm not really concerned about my own survival, even if scum will succeed in making me a lynchbait, please revisit this post (and the wall of text above) after my flip and lynch the right target.

===

Also, regarding my TGGC's vote. I'll sum it again: I decided to vote him because Carli did all the things I was accusing Shiro for initially + some more weird things pointed out by others.
Since there were many points others posted I agreed with, I decided that Carli is more likely to be scum.

I definitely would not vote TGGC if I were scum just because he'd get lynched without my vote. The deadline is not that close yet.

[Netherspite]

Sorry, you're right, you didn't vote VDA, only intended to.

[Netherspite]

Still, the statement stands, just in a bit weaker form.
And there is plenty of other things that make me think you're scum.

[Netherspite]

Also, I'd really like to finally hear your thoughts and reads on everyone in the game.

[Netherspite]

If they have no RB, there is 4 possible setups:

row 1 : town JK can CC
row 3: town BP can CC. he shouldn't claim BP obviously but he can rather claim doc/JK and get a double win: get the scum lynched and get his BP used.
column A: town JK can CC
column B: no one can CC

so only 25% chance that no1 will CC a doc claim.

[Netherspite]

sorry, wrong a bit
column A is impossible
column C has doc to CC.

Still 25% chance

[Netherspite]

100 - I tried translating with google and it couldn't detect language.

This was a bit cut to make it harder to read. I managed though.

See, stuff. Now I can skive for

two

three days before I do anymore.

If you don't want to play this game then just replace out

[Netherspite]

That was not a joke.
Just an advice on how to behave politely.
If you don't have time/wish to play the game, then just replace out and let us have some fun.
And if you want to play it, then read it up to the end, post your reads and your vote since we're close to the deadline.

[Netherspite]

Yes, I'm scumreading

BlueBloodedToffee

as your most likely scumpartner, but less than you.

[Netherspite]

If you wonder about my full reads list:

TGGC - leaning town (can still be scum, but we'll see it soon anyway)
Toolenduso - null
JohnnyFarrar - leaning town
Shiro - scum
BlueBloodedToffee - leaning scum
Luca Blight - leaning town
VictorDeAngelo - leaning town
GuyInFreezer - null

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

May be I am wrong. But VictorDeAngelo is kind of trolling and was lurking half of the game.
I don't really think scum would attract attention like this.
It is possible (for the sake of WIFOM) but I have some kind of gut feeling that he's not scum.

@VictorDeAngelo

Well, if you'll be able to catch up and vote before the deadline it's ok.

[Netherspite]

1. Besides association, I found Dyslexicon's reasoning for jumping onto Carli's wagon very smelly, as I wrote in my VCA wall.
2. I find tool null because I had both town and scum vibes from his posts and I don't have any strong feeling about him. It is somewhere in between the town leaning and scum leaning and thus null. I didn't analyze his posts in details because nothing pinged my scum-radar seriously and I rather focused on those who looked suspicious.
3. Yeah, I don't have a solid town read unfortunately. I'd really like to have one but there is no one who would behave 100% towny. The only one I'll have in my strong town list is TGGC if he'll get confirmed.
4. We have at least one investigative role if there is no counterclaims. And thus, best move for investigative role in my opinion will be to check TGGC to either confirm him (and have 1 townie with 100% confidence) or lynch him tomorrow. If he will die during the night he'll get confirmed town as well. Anyway, I don't really think he'll get away if he fake claimed.

[Netherspite]

If TGGC is lying and we have a tracker then the real doc or BP will already know that.
We were discussing possible setups where no one knows that he's lying and I explained you that the only possible setup where no counterclaim is possible is column B, where there is a Cop and there is no Tracker.

[Netherspite]

Another one.
Could you please read all my posts and realize that associations wasn't the only clue?
Also, I said you're

leaning

scum, not solid scum.

[Netherspite]

1. You with Shiro being the scumteam perfectly fits with your interaction after your replacement in. There were a number of reasons, I won't list them, please refer to my previous posts around my second Shiro vote.
2. Dyslexicon's reasoning for jumping onto Carli's wagon was the worst of all who jumped onto it.
and now third point is added:
3. You are too concerned about why are you looking suspicious.
Townie's concern is to find the scum.
Scum's concern is to not look suspicious.

[Netherspite]

I am assuming we have TGGC town flip. Because if he is lying we'll know it and if he's not it's the same as having the flip.
Regarding the interaction: your first posts after you replaced in.

The key points: (feeling myself like parrot now)
1. The flow: you come in, changing vote from Carli/TGGC to VDA (who Shiro intended to vote by his own words earlier), ask Shiro why isn't he voting and then he votes exactly the slot your predecessor had vote on.
2. You seem to be teaching less-experienced scumpartner how to play by explaining Shiro that his reasoning for voting Carli is bad. Yet you don't suspect him for that, just tell that the reasoning is bad.
3. You seem to be defending Shiro and asking why do I vote him.

However, I can agree that if you consider playing defensively ok for townie then you would both defend Shiro when I accused him for the same and be concerned about my suspicion towards you.
I just don't agree that it's a good townplay. It is not helping us to accomplish our goal to find scum.

===

Yes, you can't speak for your predecessor but his actions do not disappear after you replace him.

===

Were you able to figure out my alignment yet? And Shiro's ?

[Netherspite]

You partially answered my last question so...
How are you going to find out what's my alignment if you're skimming my posts?
I'm making important points in these posts so I wouldn't recommend to skim them.
You can safely skim my argument with Luca in the beginning though, it was pretty useless and long imo.

[Netherspite]

Personally I don't agree that it's a good townplay either.
When reading what happened before you joined you're taking a fresh look on the old posts considering the new information and thus can notice something left overlooked by everyone previously.

[Netherspite]

It's taking a lot of time.
And it's not a town tell on its own... but ignoring the whole game before you replaced in feels scummy for me.
I don't see any reason for townie to be that lazy. Town needs more information. Scum does not.

[Netherspite]

VDA does not exist as mod just said Why voting a figment of our imagination? j/k

As I said, being too lazy to do it is pretty similar to being too lazy to, say, do a scouting in multiplayer strategy game. Yeah, you can skip it completely but it hurts your play if you're town. And thus, you're playing partially against your role goal, reduce your chance to win and (more important) reduce my chance to win. So it stays as one of the reasons I suspect you for.

Regarding VDA, should we really vote him just because he is not paying attention to this game? Yeah, I don't like it either and I'd lynch him just to kick him out of the game.
But it's playing against my role goal and I don't like losing. So no, I won't vote him for now.

[Netherspite]

I just don't see town motivation behind being lazy.
I'm not trying to make you believing my opinion.

I'm voting Shiro after all, BlueBloodedToffee is just a suspect at this point.

[Netherspite]

Gosh, I never said lazy = scum.
I just said that being lazy is more logical for scum and thus I consider it a

slight

scum tell.

[Netherspite]

And I was not going to convince anyone to vote for BlueBloodedToffee...
But you're right, this discussion is useless.

And what are your reads by the way?

[Netherspite]

@BlueBloodedToffee

If you would have to choose your vote for D1 from all players

except the VictorDeAngelo

, who would you vote and why?
Also, what are your reads on all the players?

@Shiro

Why are you so sure that your lynch won't be happening today?

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

Where did you see that

everyone

finds you scummy? So far no one voted you besides me and no one suspected you besides two other people.

Also, what are your clues on BlueBloodedToffee? Why do you see him as today's lynch? No one is even considering voting him so far.

[Netherspite]

You didn't answer about BlueBloodedToffee.

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

Hmm, that looks like very weak reason for having his lynch today. Also, JohnnyFarrar never said he'd lynch BlueBloodedToffee. He even said that my reasoning for suspecting him is crap.
So I don't get your logic to be honest.
While I can understand how VDA will get policy lynched as lurker, I completely don't understand how can we get to BlueBloodedToffee lynch.

[Netherspite]

Well, your reasoning look genuine and you move slightly towards town read in my eyes.
May be it is affected by me thinking of BlueBloodedToffee as your partner and I don't think bussing is a valid option in your position.

However, you are still my top scum read and I don't see where would I move my vote to.
Hmm, may be you're right about the VDA's policy lynch and it really can happen. However, I strongly dislike this idea.

[Netherspite]

@BlueBloodedToffee

Are you serious about VDA? If so, you're not really convincing. Everyone can say "Look, he's scum! Vote him!" and it changes nothing...

Also, your logic in the last post...
[irony]If replacements in newbie games are most likely to be done by scum then half of newbie games should have like 3-4 scum.[/irony]

If there would be a Jester in this game I'd say you're one.

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

I can say the same
It happens. It actually happens a lot. OMGUS votes happen too, but personally I don't like it.

[Netherspite]

My previous game had like 8-10 replacements.
Did we have 5 scum?

===

So, are you saying that voting someone we have really no clues about is better than voting someone who was active and we have some information to make conclusions based on?

[Netherspite]

We can just go and lynch some random player in the beginning of the day with pretty much the same chance to catch the scum.

[Netherspite]

@toolenduso

Mind posting your current full list of reads?

[Netherspite]

While it can mean that scum has more chance to be replaced in a game
we can't make a reverse conclusion that the replaced player is more likely to be scum.
Just because there is not equal amount of scum and town in the game.
We'll have roughly ~(39.8 * 2 / 100) = ~0.8 scum replacements per game and roughly ~(31.9 * 7 / 100) = ~2.24 town replacements per game.
So only 1 out of 3 replacements is more likely to be scum.

[Netherspite]

@JohnnyFarrar

Basically I said in my opener that

if

someone will consider my scumhunting manner scummy I won't care and won't stop it because it's the way I scumhunt.
Personally I don't consider it scummy.

@BlueBloodedToffee

Please read my post where I explain why you draw wrong conclusions out of that statistic.

===

I'm really hoping for Vic & GiF to catch up before the deadline but I doubt we'll be able to make an informed decision after they'll post.
We have 2 days until deadline now.

I can't get rid of the feeling that lynching Shiro is a mistake. However, previous time I allowed myself to ignore the initial suspect and look for more deep and hidden motivations than there really were, it ended up with a mislynch of the wrong guy. So this time I'll stick with my initial suspect. I prefer logic over gut feelings after all.

[Netherspite]

Just sharing the experience. Had such feeling in previous game and started to look more and more deeper, built a theory that was great and included several very hidden motivations. However, it was plain wrong and the initial suspect found with plain logic was really scum.
So I made a promise to myself to never fall into that trap again.

Anyway, you seem to be jumping from target to target; you vote lurkers because they lurk; now you vote me for sharing my thoughts. Really, does this game by some crazy reason have a Jester?...

[Netherspite]

Last sentence was directed to BlueBloodedToffee ofc.

[Netherspite]

You give absolutely crap reasoning for your votes yet you're really confident in them.
It just does look insane.

[Netherspite]

There was nothing scummy, I was sharing thoughts and my experience from the previous game.
If I knew you would react like this I'd still do it, because it shows only how insane are your reads and votes and not how scummy I am.

Interesting how you also like to ignore questions.
I'll repeat them for you:

@BlueBloodedToffee

If you would have to choose your vote for D1 from all players

except the VictorDeAngelo

, who would you vote and why?
Also, what are your reads on all the players?

I'll extend the exception and add me to it.
In other words, do you have anyone to vote for

not

shit reason?

[Netherspite]

Did you skip the second part of that paragraph completely?
I just confirmed that I'm absolutely sure in my vote and I

will not

listen to my gut. I will not use that as an excuse either.
We all do mistakes, I admit mine instead of making shit excuses.

And you ignored the questions again.

[Netherspite]

Some explanation for GiF and Shiro votes are welcome.

Also, please keep your vote, I didn't mean to convince you into anything. Your twisted logic already makes me pretty confident you're Shiro's partner and thus it's pretty useless to convince a scum into voting the real scum instead of townie

[Netherspite]

*for GiF and Shiro reads

[Netherspite]

@JoyhnnyFarrar

I get slight town vibes off his last posts.
I think it's because he's attempting to fix his mistakes and adjust his play though.
So it's a slight gut feeling that almost made me hunting unexistant witches.

@BlueBloodedToffee

"obvtown" ain't really a reasoning.
Luca is lurking now as well. Why are you not scumreading him then?

[Netherspite]

sorry for a mistake in your name, Johnny.

[Netherspite]

That's very nice position.

"I'll townread random persons, scumread other random persons for shit reasons and if someone disagrees with me then they should explain me why they're right while I won't explain anything."

[Netherspite]

Your scumreads is what looks fabricated to be honest.
Townreads as well.

===

Going to sleep.
Please don't hammer anyone, I still hope we'll hear something from Vic and GiF before the deadline.

[Netherspite]

@toolenduso

So basically you consider players town just because they're "too scummy to be scum"?
As was previously posted by someone, if we start townreading people for playing absolutely scummy then we're doomed.

===

By the way, in my experience fast-growing wagons on townies are usually scum-driven (or have at least one scum in them).
So in case of my lynch, analyze my wagon after my flip. I'm starting to get crazy thought that the scum in my wagon is toolenduso, just because of his reasoning for townreads and that weird attempt to push townie despite being said that he's wrong.
May be I'm wrong though.

[Netherspite]

Oh I see it a lot. People forget about it so easily.
And I think VCA is important.

[Netherspite]

@BlueBloodedToffee

I'll be looking at Shiro in-depth when I do get the chance, something bugs me about that slot.

Nether is town. So is Shiro.

Shiro because obvtown.

So something bugged you about that slot, you never looked at him in-depth (or never told about your findings) yet you call him obvtown?

[Netherspite]

@BlueBloodedToffee

What exactly did you learn from his ISO?
Mind quoting some of his posts that changed your mind from "that slot bugs me" to "obvtown"?

[Netherspite]

Nice excuse for defending your partner or trying to get towncred for defending someone you know is townie.

[Netherspite]

So you've read his ISO and can't provide a single comment on some specific post?

[Netherspite]

It's you who is setting up that lynch.
By being unable to explain what did you find out reading his ISO.
It is just plain impossible to not be able to comment on someone's ISO.

[Netherspite]

Not willing to share information with the town is scummy itself.

Anyway, if you explain your scumreads... What exactly bugged you about his slot then?

[Netherspite]

No, you didn't really explain why I'm scum.
Judging by a single paragraph is not the way to go if you want to catch the scum unless this paragraph contains words "I claim scum."

[Netherspite]

I've already refuted your argument.

Anyway, no point in discussing it.
You again ignored my question: "Anyway, if you explain your scumreads... What exactly bugged you about his slot then?"

[Netherspite]

So,

BlueBloodedToffee

is:

1. Does not explain any of his decisions.
- Won't explain town reads just because he does not like to.
- Something bugged him about Shiro. Won't explain because now he's town and he can use his nice excuse.

2. Voting for random reasons.
- At first he thinks that VDA is the best scum candidate just because he's the most lurking lurker.
- Now he does not care about lurkers and focuses me for no reason (no, I can't consider a single refuted argument about single paragraph a reason to vote someone).

To be honest, he does his best in convincing me into voting him.

[Netherspite]

You know everyone can just vote random people for random reasons (the most lurking lurker, the most active person, the most towny town, the longest walls of text writer, etc.) and consider others either null-tells or towns without any justification for his words.
It's in fact the most hard thing for the scum to build fake reads on everyone and this tactic allows to fake them without any efforts.
Your excuses are very nice for the scum and hurting the town.

Also, you're voting me for being transparent and sharing all of my thoughts including some that can be interpreted as scum tells by someone like you. That's not a random reason, that's worse.

[Netherspite]

You are voting for either random or worse reasons.
Nothing to be glad for.

[Netherspite]

Lynching him now is really bad idea because he still can be the real doc. Scum can be too afraid to try to support him.
And we'll be sure tomorrow anyway (if in the single case where he can't be CCed cop will check him) whether he is scum or not.

[Netherspite]

I doubt he'll die.
If he's town then scum most likely won't kill him for the sake of WIFOM.

[Netherspite]

And clever PR will decide on his own anyway.
It's WIFOM for the scum whether PR will follow the advice or not.

[Netherspite]

Well, I warned you that I'll be pretty active

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

In fact, I just ignore any AtE including avatar-based one.
I operate with logic only.

[Netherspite]

I know. Still, this joke has a slight tracks of the truth. Avatars tend to slightly affect the opinion on a player.

[Netherspite]

And then another single post made you doing another 180 turn?

[Netherspite]

I am that townie and the one who said you that you're wrong is JohnnyFarrar. Read his posts above.

[Netherspite]

Also, I don't make efforts to look towny. So?

[Netherspite]

305 - One in four as opposed to one in six. That could be a scumslip....hmmm.

If scum has a roleblocker then there is no setup where doc can't be CCed so they wouldn't fake claim in this case.
iirc it was discussed in the posts around it.

315 - Wait, why is Nether ISOing himself here? Did I miss something. I'm going skip the content and just worry about the fact that Nether is ISOing himself for no reason. I'm starting to see where this wagon on him came from.

Because I said in the beginning that I'll explain all my questions and their results.

So...you think that I should stop voting for a scumread because other people think I'm wrong about that scumread?

You didn't refute his arguments so I assumed that you agree with them.
It would be logical to find someone more scummy in that case.

@VictorDeAngelo

Since you have more experience, do you think that

BlueBloodedToffee

's manner to scumhunt (random voting people for lurking or single post, not giving any explanations besides weak ones for his random votes) is okay for townie? I just don't understand how this can be considered a good townplay.

[Netherspite]

I didn't intent to switch my vote.
I just wonder why do you do such weird things. Why are you trying to get suspicion? There's no Jester in this game. Is there any profit for you in getting lynched? I don't think so. So why are you playing against the town then?

[Netherspite]

Scum may claim doc to lure out a CC - particularly if TGGC was resigned to the lynch.

Personally I'd exchange 1 PR for 1 scum. May be I'm wrong because of lack of experience though.

But why do this?

I don't like to use the "common routes" and I'm experimenting with my way to scumhunt.
I do this so people see my thought process and comment on it. I find these comments useful.

In a newbie game I think a more detail orientated posting is better, but that's not the way everyone plays and I've probably got towngames even in this forum where I've thrown out naked votes. Still people have different styles and I won't comment on how effective it is until I see results.

So it's more like matter of a playstyle?
Well, I'll try to get used to it but I still really don't like it.

Also, could you point me to the post where Johnny refuted my points against Nether?

iirc he quoted your own words that you see a genuine town motivation behind doing what I do but choose to believe more into scum motivation.
And I tend to agree with that.
If you see both town and scum motivation behind some actions possible then why choosing one over another?

[Netherspite]

@Nether

- How do you feel about the fact I skipped over your self-ISO?

I'm expecting you to revisit it once you know what it was posted for.
Won't you?

[Netherspite]

I intend to tell you why your scum-read on Shiro is wrong when you tell me why you're scum-reading her.

How about telling me why my scum-read on Shiro is wrong? I've explained why I scum read him.

[Netherspite]

@VictorDeAngelo

That makes sense as well if you tend to town read me. There is way more activity now and you try to spend the remaining time until deadline looking at your scum reads.

Also, I strongly town read you at this point because of your vote (if you would be scum it would make more sense joining my wagon over Shiro's wagon). So I don't really look for some hidden intentions behind you skipping my explanation of my questions.
However, I think I'll quote most important findings I mentioned in that post a bit later FYI (going AFK a bit now).

[Netherspite]

@BlueBloodedToffee

How about his wagon is there partially because he was

not

scumhunting?
Please provide example of said scumhunting you see.

[Netherspite]

I doubt scum would behave like that because it gets all the attention he could get.
May be he's trying to save his partner Shiro from a lynch by bussing himself?

[Netherspite]

I doubt scum would behave like that because it gets all the attention he could get.
May be he's trying to save his partner Shiro from a lynch by bussing himself?

Why would anyone do that ? Like seriously ?

His behaviour is strange to say the least. Especially since I know I am town.

hmm..

That's really strange even if you're scum.
I can't find any sane explanation for his play.
May be.. he is trying to cover his early scummy play with completely idiotic play now?

[Netherspite]

Well techinially speaking everyone is a better.

You're kidding, right?

[Netherspite]

Everyone is a better only for you.
And it is pretty obvious and useless information for us. So why sharing?

[Netherspite]

So how any other townie is a better lynch option than you IF you're townie like you're saying?

[Netherspite]

@BlueBloodedToffee

Did I just understand your intentions correctly? You make sense only in single case and I think I just realized what's that.

[Netherspite]

@BlueBloodedToffee

Not yet or it will break it if I got it right.
We'll see soon.

[Netherspite]

Why is Netherspite getting voted?

(Hey guys I'm back for REAL this time. Sorry for being gone longer than I expected.)

I'm really bothered by GiF being still absent despite stating the opposite.
No, that does not make him looking scummy in my opinion but I'd really like to hear what does he think on the current wagons.

[Netherspite]

It's the combination of these things:

-A scum explanation fits well with your play. A town explanation also fits, but then there's...
-The timing of your jump onto the TGGC wagon and your position on that wagon.
-The wording of your post when you voted for TGGC, which made it seem like you were looking for a reason to vote that slot.
-Post #274, in which you say your conviction that the TGGC slot is scum has been strengthened because TGGC, who had just replaced in, wasn't reading carefully.

It was some kind of "Damn! How blind was I! I am accusing Shiro for all of that but Carli did it also and some more!"
If you interprete it as scummy behavior... I don't know what to say.
But when I imagine that I'm scum I come to the conclusion that I wouldn't vote Carli at that point as her wagon would get to the lynch without my help and I would not risk jumping onto the completing wagon of townie when I had a case on another player for a while (and if she would be my scumpartner I wouldn't vote her for obvious reasons).
So I don't see any scum motivation behind it when I look from the outside.

Also, I consider not reading the game after replacing in a scum tell. Just because townie has less motivation to be lazy: he needs all the information he can get to find the scum.
Less information = less chance to catch scum. Not catching up = relying on others' reads and quotes, which will not lead you to the correct reads.
Also, it gets worse when someone says that he

did

catch up while he really

did not

. Lying is not a way to go for townie with rare exceptions.

[Netherspite]

I'm going to sleep, so I'll post my current reads for the sake of providing information to the town.

Carli/TGGC

-

Leaning town

(waiting for the D2 to find out whether his claim was real)

Bananas34/Toolenduso

-

Null

,

slightly

leaning scum

if any (because he's too tunneling me without a strong reason)

JohnnyFarrar

-

Leaning town

(he didn't do anything to change my read, while I see scenarios where he can be scum I find it unlikely at this point)

Shiro

-

Scum

(I consider his late play an attempt to adjust to look less scummy, so I can't be convinced that he's not scum yet)

BlueBloodedToffee

-

Leaning town

(If I got his intentions correctly)

Luca Blight

-

Null

(something bugs me in his latest behavior, asked a question below, need an answer to make up my mind)

VictorDeAngelo

-

Town

(If he would be scum he'd have more incentive to jump onto my wagon than on Shiro's wagon because my wagon was bigger and it seems I'm a easier lynch option)

GuyInFreezer

-

Null

(Still expecting his thoughts on the latest game events and current wagons)

Again, please don't hammer anyone, we still need some thoughts from GiF before lynching.

===

@Luca Blight

The deadline is close. If there won't appear any new wagon, which one will you choose for policy lynch and why?

@Shiro

Who is your top scum read at the moment? And top 2 ?
Are you going to policy lynch your town read (iirc you townread me) if the deadline will be close and there won't be any other wagon going?
Provide explanation for all answers please

[Netherspite]

@toolenduso

Thanks for the analysis, I didn't realize I became more OMGUSy.
Actually I hate OMGUS as a reason.
Also I think that I'll revert slight leaning scum on you because of the meta analysis, you seem to be the first one in this game who spent time for that.
May be you're just townie who is wrong.

===

Not sure what to think about Luca Blight.
He could be scum who tries to prepare a cover in case both me and Shiro are townies. So tomorrow he can say "see? I told you Toffee is better lynch option".
He could be as well townie who is genuinely considering Toffee the most scummy player.

@Luca Blight

Why are you considering BlueBloodedToffee the most scummy player? Isn't he just making no sense as scum?

===

Actually I'm also really curious on why our Doc is keeping silence.
If he's townie and knows that scum will have huge motivation to kill him at night, why does not he share any info with us?
Does he even care if town will win?
His current behavior almost yelling that he's the scum who is happy to have the spotlight gone from him and considers it the best option to keep silence to not get the attention again.

[Netherspite]

It was not that weird before because we can all have some RL that prevents us from posting.

[Netherspite]

I don't agree on that.
He was analyzing everyone in his catchup, not only you.

[Netherspite]

Fun fact: he did more analysis on other players than you.

[Netherspite]

Can you elaborate? As I didn't see it after his first post?

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

I'll re-read his catchup.
However, I don't agree that GiF/Luca are willing to vote you instead of me. They're still tentative. And their intentions were even more unclear at the point he started catching up. Also if he only started to catch up he didn't know even that.
So his decision to vote should've been taken only based on the wagon sizes and may be few latest posts. Unless he actually was reading the game for a while and faked catching up while he already knew everything.

@BlueBloodedToffee

If he's town then we're doomed Since I doubt we'll get another wagon going and lynching townie on D1 is a bad start.

[Netherspite]

I don't

not

want a Nether lynch, but I'd settle for him

over a no lynch

.

He never said he'd settle for me over VDA, did he?

[Netherspite]

I'd go for anyone lynch over a no lynch, even my town reads, so? Does it mean anything?

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

I've read the VDA's catchup once again and while I see that he was suspecting you since the end of his first catchup post I also see that his reads on you are built up slowly and based on the really suspicious things you posted. It looks like a genuine read.

And really, if you want him lynched, why don't you post your case and vote him?

[Netherspite]

@Shiro

Why do you think I'll go for my strongest town read over you?

VDA for reasons I have already stated.

No, you didn't? Besides the lurking thing as he's not lurking anymore anyway.

[Netherspite]

I also told you my thoughts on his catchup well before you told yours and it didn't change your mind. Why your thoughts should change mine? I don't agree with you, he didn't

aim

for your lynch since the beginning, he had genuine slowly built scumread on you based on your posts.

===

Why are you already so sure that it'll be me or him and your wagon will just disappear? Why are you so sure that there won't be 2 more people who'd prefer lynching you? It's so off...

[Netherspite]

Are you a prophet?...

[Netherspite]

Who is your main suspect except VDA?

[Netherspite]

It does not make sense to lynch uncc'd doc.

[Netherspite]

Well, our prophet was right, instead of lynching someone who looks scummy we'll lynch townie.
Still, there's chance to win this for us.
I'll post some thoughts for you to win this game for us after this night, so don't hammer yet.
Inc posts.

[Netherspite]

First of all, I'd like to hear from BlueBloodedToffee as if I got his intentions correctly it's time for him to post now.
And if I was wrong then his actions just make no sense at all from any perspective.

[Netherspite]

If you didn't skim through my posts you would already know the answers.

1. He does not make sense as town either. His play was looking completely insane from any perspective but one.
And I'm going to see now if I was right about that perspective I'm talking about.

2. Shiro's play wasn't insane, his play was rather scummy. He attempted to adjust his play later and that was making it even more scummy: while BlueBloodedToffee kept doing the same thing as he was obviously knowing what he's doing, Shiro looked like trying to fake townplay using advices from others and adjusting his play after being pointed out.

3. As I said, I had

gut feeling

that his lynch is a mistake. And since in my previous game I had same feeling and it made me lynching the wrong guy instead of the one I initially considered scum (and who

was

scum for real) I promised myself to never repeat this mistake. So I'll keep my vote on Shiro.

PEdit:

Yes, this point is important and I'd like to hear from him to understand whether I was right or not.
But it's him who have to say it.

[Netherspite]

Gosh, I was sharing my thoughts and feelings.
I'm being transparent since the beginning of the game.
If we'll have fifth player in this game considering it a scum tell then go ahead and hammer me now, you deserve a lose for such terrible play.

[Netherspite]

1. The difference is I don't see

any

sane motivation behind his behavior except the single one. And we'll see soon whether it is correct or not.
2. Shiro and BlueBloodedToffee are playing completely different. While the former is

trying hard

to look townier, the latter does not care about it and does something you don't see yet (or he is completely insane, if I'm wrong about him).
3. I don't trust gut feelings because single time I did it it was terribly wrong. I prefer operating with logic.
No, not really. It's important for another reason.

[Netherspite]

This post is just stating the obvious fact that lynching someone who is being transparent, active and open for the whole game is a stupid thing.
If he's scum you'll learn it anyway later and if he's town you're losing someone who is contributing a lot into the town win.

[Netherspite]

Anyway, I'm waiting for the BlueBloodedToffee to complete the picture and post the whole analysis for town to use tomorrow.

[Netherspite]

I was talking mainly to the whole town, not to you in that post.
And yes, I don't see town motivation behind your vote.

Whether player is genuinely transparent or lying can be seen way easier later because it's way more hard to speak that much and not get caught on lies.
So from town PoV lynching someone who plays like me is stupid thing.
Also, most of my posts contained way less fluff than many others. I've posted more useful content than anyone else in total.
And I'm not indecisive around the wagons, I'm having my opinion and vote accordingly.

I don't see what are you trying to achieve with this argument to be honest.
If you're town your whole vote and reasoning behind it are not making sense.
If you're scum then you already pretty sure that you want to lynch townie so why asking me?
Or are you trying to justify your vote to look less scummy tomorrow in that case?

[Netherspite]

I'm never trying hard to make myself less suspicious. My win condition is to find the scum, not to survive myself.
If it takes my lynch for the people to realize that I was saying the truth - so be it.
But before hammer happens, I'd like to provide all the information town needs to win this game without me.
And to do so, I still need BlueBloodedToffee to post.

[Netherspite]

And no, your reasoning for the vote looks made out of nowhere. You repeat others' words and make precautions to not look scummy for joining a wagon on townie.
I really hope you're just townie who is wrong because otherwise my reads on you for the whole D1 are wrong and it's my fault I didn't notice it earlier.

[Netherspite]

As soon as he'll post I'll explain it and you'll see that it's more like contributing very important thing for the town win rather than my own survival.
This can cause my own survival as well though. But I don't really care about it.

Funny enough you're attempting to represent me as survivalistic while I was being the opposite during the entire game.

Also, please quote a single point you made about me being scummy that was not repeating of others' words?

[Netherspite]

This paragraph contains obvious lie.
I said I hated all the votes on that wagon apart from Toolenduso. And mine obviously because I wouldn't make I vote if I hated it.
I've explained the reasons I joined the wagon. Also I didn't look at who was at this wagon because I didn't consider it serious before I understood why Carli was scummy myself. And only later when I performed a VCA I found out that 3 out of 5 votes were weird.

So basically your point consists of:
1. obvious lie
2. a single genuine observation that was weak on its own.
3. a senseless idea that we should vote those who does not look scummy just because the obvious scum is not scum.

Not very convincing.
And you think that I'll take your vote seriously?...

[Netherspite]

To be honest, I hate all those votes except for

toolenduso

's vote may be. And except mine, obviously.

After TGGC claimed Doc there was a post by Nether saying he 'hated' all the votes on that wagon, apart from his.

So you're refusing to admit that you obviously lied?
I'll post those quotes then for everyone since I don't believe that you genuinely just forgot what I really posted after I pointed out it is lie.
Why are you lying? Are you scum?

Regarding point 2, it is the only point made by yourself that would make sense if I didn't refute it.

Regarding point 3, you're trying hard to misrepresent me, yet I won't let you.
I'm not voting BlueBloodedToffee, I'm not saying he's scum, so why would I hesitate to undermine my own point by a further observation? I correct my own observations using newly noticed facts, this is how you play this game.
I'm not contradicting myself either. Shiro's actions make sense from scum perspective while BlueBloodedToffee actions make no sense from any perspective besides one (town-aligned by the way) and I'm waiting for him to either confirm my thoughts or not.

[Netherspite]

Why would I be desperate?
As I said, I don't care whether I will get lynched or not. The only thing I care about is the town victory.
Thus, I'm trying to get as much information as I can and to pass it to the town.
Pressing you was a good option to get more reaction from you and thus more information for the town.
As I mentioned, I consider you a null read and thus you can be scum we need to find.

Also, your interpretation of my words was wrong.
I never said I don't like his vote.
And if you was genuinely wrong about it, why didn't you say that it was just wrong interpretation when I told that you're lying? Didn't you revisit my post? Didn't you re-read that phrase? Why?

[Netherspite]

@Luca Blight

I won't. If you still consider me scum after I've explained you why every point of your case is BS then you're either scum yourself or too ignorant to understand why are you wrong.
I've made tons of points on why Shiro is scum, you've read it (unless you're skimming through the topic which is even worse scum tell) and I'm not going to act like a parrot.

@Shiro

Will you be online at like 1-2 hours before the deadline to hammer me to avoid a no lynch?

[Netherspite]

The word used is wrong, I thought it comes from "ignore" but no, it is not
What I meant that you just ignore all the points made and insist on your false arguments.