Newbie 1682: GAME OVER

[Karnage]

ohhhhhh a wagon. I like wagons especially if its RC.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

VOTE: smudger

what makes an RC wagon so special?

[Karnage]

It's RC, we have history, why do you ask?

Just trying to understand your vote.

[Karnage]

I know, I would ask also... you don't know RC then?

I'm currently playing in a game in which he is part of a hydra. that's the extent of my experience with him.

[Karnage]

Also not putting someone at L-1 quite yet.

there is so much wrong with this
VOTE: MNDWI

[Karnage]

This is my first game on this site. Explain to me what's wrong? @Karnage

the fact that you felt the need to say it at all. its an unnecessary justification for your vote on UTL

[Karnage]

I remember reading that naked votes are frowned upon.

that's true but you gave a reason for your vote.

[Karnage]

Vote: UpTooLate

Voting way too quickly.

this was fine, you made an RVS vote and gave a reason.

Also not putting someone at L-1 quite yet.

this subsequent reason is what I don't like

[Karnage]

Also not putting someone at L-1 quite yet.

there is so much wrong with this
VOTE: MNDWI

What was so wrong?
Also, RC wasn't at L–1.

Nobody said he was

[Karnage]

whats with all the pidgeon talk?

[Karnage]

Hello, everyone! Good luck!

I feel like not wanting to put someone at L-1 is perfectly reasonable considering I've read newbie games where someone hammered by accident.

sure but he was under no pressure to vote RC there but felt the need to justify his not voting him anyway

[Karnage]

sure but he was under no pressure to vote RC there but felt the need to justify his not voting him anyway

I felt like I was under pressure because of the huge bandwagon.

UNVOTE:
I can see why you would feel that.

I feel like I should contribute something right now, but I don't know what.

re-read, look for statements/actions that don't make sense coming from a town perspective or don't benefit town. if you see something, comment on it. If you like their response then fine, if not, then maybe you found scum and you should vote for them.

[Karnage]

Everyone has confirmed.

VOTE: ircher
everyone has confirmed but not everybody is posting

[Karnage]

this is weak, two posts and you go serious on UTL?

Serious? Let's see what he thinks. Either way, methinks a prod can't hurt.

so the other two votes on the wagon aren't enough of a prod? Seems an opportunistic vote to me...

then why aren't you voting broo?

[Karnage]

Right after Karnage's vote (

apart from pressurizing did you have any specific reason for that

) Ircher popped in instantly. It

is

true that he hadn't posted for about 2 days anywhere before that¹, but it was still a Beetlejuice².
UTL's reaction was strange too. What was the point of greeting him? (If there were no Mafia Daytalk I'd call it a tell but since there is, I simply don't know what to think of it.)

sorry, missed this before. The vote was initially to pressure an inactive player but I'm content to leave it there for the time being

[Karnage]

UTL is one of your nullreads, Ircher.

Why are you still voting

him

her?

I'm wondering why two null reads (UTL and RC) got to be part of the pretty rainbow of reads while broo and I just get thrown in as "everyone else... null read"

[Karnage]

While your evasion of my point is intriguing, it would be a stretch to say that your behaviour has been worthy of the wagon. I'd say that there's always plenty of new information to gather, but scraping the barrel at this stage may end up doing more harm than good.

UNVOTE:

I wonder if your unvote had more to do with this:

so the other two votes on the wagon aren't enough of a prod? Seems an opportunistic vote to me...

[Karnage]

I'm wondering why two null reads (UTL and RC) got to be part of the pretty rainbow of reads while broo and I just get thrown in as "everyone else... null read"

I suppose I should be posting more if even the "why aren't people being included" post doesn't include me.

[Karnage]

are you thinking of a UTL/MeNow scum team?

UTL could be scum but I'm gettiing a town vibe off MeNow

[Karnage]

I'm voting him because he makes a ton of posts that don't really add up to anything and the

Adenine wagon feels too popular and likely scum led atm

.

yet you unvoted the person leading it...

[Karnage]

It's not scummy to start a wagon.

It's scummy to join it with bad reasons or to sheep the crowd mentality that led to it.

this seems to contradict your previous statment

[Karnage]

When I say scum led I don't mean the first vote on the wagon is scum.

I just mean the scum are leading the wagon on, supporting it, etc.

ok, that makes sense

[Karnage]

I have Edge at neutral cuz he is neutral. I have enough of a read where I think Edge is not null, but not enough evidence in either direction for town/scum read.

this makes absolutely no sense to me.

[Karnage]

Why not? What about it makes absolutely no sense. I simply said I had a neutral read cuz the read isn't town, scum, or null.

maybe my definition of null is different? When I call somebody null I'm saying I don't have any scum or town read on them. So to say you have a read that they are not null and to not have them at least leaning one way or the other makes no sense to me

[Karnage]

maybe my definition of null is different? When I call somebody null I'm saying I don't have any scum or town read on them. So to say you have a read that they are not null and to not have them at least leaning one way or the other makes no sense to me

are Null and neutral not the same thing?

Normally I would say they are. I'm just trying to figure out what Ircher is saying in 172

[Karnage]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand I've f-cked it up.
The Spoiler above should have been tagged as "IC-Stuff".
Sorry!

fixed that for you! <3

Thanks a lot ! ^_^

Oh and he's wrong.
Scum winrate is considerably higher than town winrate at the moment.

Am I?

you are, day talk has apparently swung things heavily towards scum

[Karnage]

........... Here's a good tip for mafia: don't lurk. Like, I've never seen a game this slow this early D1.
And I would like RC to answer my question that I've asked twice already.

shouldn't that be a tip for everybody, regardless of alignment?

[Karnage]

VOTE: RC this isn't scumhunting:

Spoiler: RC posts

I am really bothered by my inability to get a handle on the game.

You think I catch scum half a day into the game every single game?

you have seen a very narrow slice of my play. this is far closer to standard d1 for me than 1750 was.

Because I want to know who scum are.

RC likes a sense of direction and has none here.

Adenine's scum btw.

I'm getting nowhere here atm.

Ugh and 74 was a town loss again.

At least Drixx lost that one to give town another win.

I'm going to get drunk and smash this game hopefully.

ok somewhat drunk. will get more drunk then report back.

[Karnage]

What does it mean though, Karnage/

I'm trying to scumhunt I'm ust not finding anything.

I tried to call out Adenine and see what would result of ir but b,fghone ignored me an fukc so no nothing

I got nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohting.

Is this scumhunting?

I'm not sure about Ircher but I like UTL for town enough.
I will sheep you until such time as I have something worth doing.

VOTE: Ircher

[Karnage]

Karnage, I see why you are voting RC, what are your thoughts on the other wagons?

MNDWI - I don't like that wagon. He's acting similarly to how I felt during my first game. I dont get how screwing up the vote tags is scummy at all.

Ircher - At this point I'd be ok with an Ircher lynch. I don't like his null/neutral read thing. His sheeping of anenine's MNDWI case is also bad, especially the vote tag read. I also don;t like that he expresses frustration with RC but doesn't act on it by voting. I think he's much more likely to be scum than than the other two.

Anenine - I was liking anenine as town up until his case on MNDWI. now I'd call him null.

[Karnage]

MNDWI - I don't like that wagon. He's acting similarly to how I felt during my first game. I dont get how screwing up the vote tags is scummy at all.

There were many other things beside those vote tags.

your case is meh. the vote tags seems to be ircher's top reason for voting though

Ircher - At this point I'd be ok with an Ircher lynch. I don't like his null/neutral read thing. His sheeping of anenine's MNDWI case is also bad, especially the vote tag read. I also don;t like that he expresses frustration with RC but doesn't act on it by voting. I think he's much more likely to be scum than than the other two.

I don't think Ircher and MeNow could be scums together and MeNow looks much scummier. What do you mean by "he's acting similarly"?

44 - I can remember thinking the same thing my first game.
141 - I've "sheeped" players I felt were more experienced than I was as town
213 - I've worryied, as town, about my posts coming off scummy
215 - I took offense to people calling me noobish

[Karnage]

your case is meh. the vote tags seems to be ircher's top reason for voting though

The fact that Ircher picked one single thing out of my case (and/or parrotted it later) doesn't make my case weaker.

44 - I can remember thinking the same thing my first game.
141 - I've "sheeped" players I felt were more experienced than I was as town
213 - I've worryied, as town, about my posts coming off scummy
215 - I took offense to people calling me noobish

All of these may have come from a scum mindset too.
By the way, this is Ircher's 5th game or so, he's not that more experienced as him.

I'll talk more about your case when I can get on a computer.

How can 215 be from a scum mindset? He's telling people to stop reading him as town because he is new! Instead he wants to be judged based on his play. Scum would just be happy being town read no matter the reason.

[Karnage]

. the vote tags seems to be ircher's top reason for voting though

It is. The key you seem to be mussing is he did it *twice* incorrectly.

Also, earlier I said it get called out in newbie games. I meant it was bound to get called out in any game *except* newbies where there is a leeway. I never review my posts.

I don't think I've ever seen a person voted because they screwed up vote tags, newbie game or otherwise. Can you link to games where you saw this?

By "review" do you mean use the preview button before you post or do you mean looking at your post after you submitted it?

[Karnage]

Bt review, I mean preview button.

Anyway, prob. won't be able to link you, but it def. is something that shouldn't be taken lightly; why are you stuck on this tangent anyway?

This "tangent" is then number one reason you are voting somebody. Why don't you want to talk about it?

[Karnage]

VOTE: ircher

this:

. the vote tags seems to be ircher's top reason for voting though

It is

. The key you seem to be mussing is he did it *twice* incorrectly.

does not jive with this:

Cuz its rather pointless

. Again, difference in perspective.

[Karnage]

broo/mndwi?

RC/Ircher?

[Karnage]

just got home from work

give me a few to get caught up

[Karnage]

UTL's hammer needs to be addressed but I don't like how RC and Ircher tried to run up the wagon before everybody had a chance to post after the day started. UTL could have made a mistake I guess but that can be sorted later.

VOTE: Ircher

One or both of RC and Ircher are scum. RC votes UTL, and Ircher follows. Then RC unvotes and Ircher follows. Ircher is a stronger overall scum read for me so my vote goes on him.

[Karnage]

One or both of RC and Ircher are scum. RC votes UTL, and Ircher follows. Then RC unvotes and Ircher follows. Ircher is a stronger overall scum read for me so my vote goes on him.

That's an awfully obv. way to play as scum --> If either of us were scum, that would be a poo move, esp. for me.

If scum play was always optimal, "mafia would be a dumb game".

[Karnage]

Well, with DayTalk, scum would avoid being **THAT** obvious. Your vote truly has no merit.

you know your play from day 1 carries over to day 2 right? your inconsistent reads, the null/neutral BS, your sheeping, the vote-formatting case against MNDWI, how it was the top reason for you voting him except you later called it pointless, that stuff doesn't just go away with the start of a new day.

[Karnage]

I didn't call it pointless, I called the discussion pointless.

so a discussion about the number one reason you were voting MNDWI was pointless... that makes sense

[Karnage]

VOTE: Karnage

We can always lynch Broo tomorrow.

Make your case to everybody why I am scum.

[Karnage]

alright, lets slow down for a second. There's plenty of time left in the day so we can take our time before lynching me, though I'd prefer to lynch UTL

first UNVOTE: ircher

looking back its pretty clear whats going on with him and RC. I'm just an idiot and missed it.

second, I'm still unclear why everybody is so keen on my lynch. I've been actively looking for scum, I was wrong, but at least I've been trying. I'd appreciate at least knowing WHY i'm being mislynched before it happens.

thirdly, I'm still going to try and find scum while I'm still here

VOTE: UTL
I haven't forgotten about his hammer on Day 1 and he's been happy to jump on whoever looks like the most likely lynch today. He was expressing intent to hammer with 12 days left in the day

[Karnage]

Going into today, I was pretty sure on Ircher, but I was starting to wane a little in my reads and decided I should invest my time elsewhere. I pushed Ircher hard because I really hadn't gotten anything good from him and I wanted to feel him out more, but I really really didn't like Karnage's jump on him. Ircher would totally be easy ML bait, and Karnage jumped on it. The way he worded his post about wanting to "address" the hammer yesterday, but wanting to sort it out later, gave me the feeling that he was setting it up to come after me next. If the Ircher lynch had gone through, and he flipped town, I'd be the prime candidate for the next ML. I fucked up yesterday, and then I pushed Ircher hard from the start. I'm just curious if both broo and Karnage would take the bait together though, or if his partner is An like you think.

Oh, I fully intended to come back to you. I just felt much stronger about ircher being scum at the time. As I explained at the time.

[Karnage]

So all this was just part of a reaction test?

Spoiler: UTL re: Ircher

THERE IS NO WAY IRCHER IS TOWN FOR THAT SHIT. NO FUCKING WAY.

Why in the hell would I claim with 2 votes on me and absolutely no intent to hammer? Because that is the ONLY way I'm claiming. Sorry bruh.

VOTE: IRCHER

I like your reaction tbh.

UNVOTE:

You get steak!

K now real talk. Like I'm dead set Ircher is scum. But yesterday you didn't like the wagon so much. Tell me why I'm wrong?

I could easily see her lolhammering to use that excuse later.

This is the kind of circular reasoning we need to avoid. UTL's explanation in #386 is solid.

Ircher's jump on it is way scummier than RC's push.

You're right, but Ircher has been playing so badly so consistently that it's possible he's just retard-town.

I'm still confused about #383 - could this be considered scum distancing? Seems pretty risky considering what just happened. This is what makes me say either.

I've liked RC for town all game. If it came down to either or, it'd be Ircher. Nothing Ircher has done has sat well with me. I'm actually about to look into his completed game and see how he played there.

seems to have no issue forming his own thoughts and opinions as opposed to just sheeping cases. He's also a big fan of quote walls and walls of text in general.

Once again, I'm just going to say people change. My days of doing quote walls are mostly past. Again, you should know better than what you are saying right now.

That is a really really drastic change. Not necessarily the walls (I really hope those are gone forever =D), but just the way you're approaching the game in general. I mean, I know meta's aren't absolute and it's too easy to change your game play from game to game, but that with everything else you've done this game has done nothing but ping me in all the wrong ways.

Everyone, please. If you aren't scumreading Ircher, tell me why. Because I can't see a possible way he's town right now.

I find that hard to believe. Especailly since once the pressure move to me you were happy to join the fun:

I actually liked the Karnage lynch better.

Intent To hammer

[Karnage]

Going into today, I was pretty sure on Ircher, but I was starting to wane a little in my reads and decided I should invest my time elsewhere. I pushed Ircher hard because I really hadn't gotten anything good from him and I wanted to feel him out more, but I really really didn't like Karnage's jump on him. Ircher would totally be easy ML bait, and Karnage jumped on it. The way he worded his post about wanting to "address" the hammer yesterday, but wanting to sort it out later, gave me the feeling that he was setting it up to come after me next. If the Ircher lynch had gone through, and he flipped town, I'd be the prime candidate for the next ML. I fucked up yesterday, and then I pushed Ircher hard from the start. I'm just curious if both broo and Karnage would take the bait together though, or if his partner is An like you think.

Oh, I fully intended to come back to you. I just felt much stronger about ircher being scum at the time. As I explained at the time.

I said you were planning on coming back to me, after the Ircher lynch went through.

Yes, when I felt pretty strongly that Ircher was scum. A the start of the day your and ircher were my top pick for the scum team. As the day went on the Ircher/RC interactions really bothered me so I started to think maybe I was wrong about you and that they were the scum team. Now that its pretty obvious to anybody paying attention that they are town, I've gone back to you as being scum.

p-edit

ok, what am I supposed to be looking for?

Spoiler: Reads

Confirmed Town

(From my perspective):
Ircher - Role PM

Likely Town

RadiantCowbells - I hate his scattershot style, but right now, my gut says town.
UpTooLate - She's being genuine in her actions. While daytalk COULD be used to sugggest such a hammer, it is MORE LIKELY that the hammer was an honest accident. My "anti-town" behavior I will admit was mostly me having fun; HOWEVER, it does serve as a semi-decent reaction test, WHICH I have gotten satisfying results from.

Leaning Town

Anen - The suspicion is mostly gone, as I was prob. more reflexive voting Anen at the beginning. I like how his analysis is starting to seem less over-analytical and more his pov. In all, it is a strong town lean for me.

Null

Neutral

Edge - I liked his D1 play, but he has yet to speak in D2, so I'm leaving at neutral.

Leaning Scum

Karnage - Mainly gut and POE

Likely Scum

Broo - I've already explained why.

[Karnage]

My "anti-town" behavior I will admit was mostly me having fun; HOWEVER, it does serve as a semi-decent reaction test, WHICH I have gotten satisfying results from.

You asked about my ealy D2 actions as a reaction test, that's my 100% honest answer.

that post was for UTL, he implied in 529 that his push on you was meant as a reaction test (he wanted to see if anybody took the bait or something like that)

[Karnage]

Not exactly. Ircher was still scummy to me, and tbh I was dead sure of it for a while after I started pressuring him again today. But the fact that someone I'm townreading wasn't comfortable with his wagon yesterday and didn't seem to have issues with him today made me start to looking at his interactions differently,

who is the townread you are referring to here?

especially with you and broo jumping in on him like that. The difference between you and broo, though, was that broo had reason to believe what I did wasn't scummy, but you seemed to still have issues with it (which is completely understandable).

I believe I did say there was a chance it was a mistake. I don't get this statement though, me having an issue with it was completely understandable but its the reason you think I'm scum?

My problem, is like I said earlier. It read as if though you were prepping me for later, after Ircher's lynch. In 445 you say that you don't like "how RC and Ircher tried to run up the wagon before everybody had a chance to post after the day started." Tell me, had they not posted first, would you not have taken that opportunity? Would you not have immediately placed your vote on the person who quickhammered a VT the day before?

It wasn't the voting of you. it was what I thought was a desire to lynch you that early in the day without having heard from everybody else.

[Karnage]

I got it -- Anen & RC are scum together!

VOTE: RC

what makes you think this?

[Karnage]

I have no intention of claiming until somebody states intent to hammer Nice job trying to get me to claim before the rest of the town (particularly ircher) has a chance to comment.

RCs claim is BS

1- I'm town
2- his play makes no sense as a Cop

VOTE: RC

[Karnage]

So if you had a guilty result on me how do you explain this post?

UTL why are you rushing lynches though?

You quickhammered day 1 and are now trying to get another quick lynch D2.

If Karnage is town that makes me extremely suspect of you.

[Karnage]

Why wouldn't he push another strong scum read knowing he could get the guilty the next day? Or is that bad play?

That would make sense but now he's outed himself under no pressure to do so which would just result in him being killed at night anyway (if he was the cop). No different than if he'd just pushed me from the start. And where is his strong scum read? His vote has been all over

Plus we aren't close to deadline. He would have plenty of time to push a different lynch or convince everybody to lunch me. Claiming cop here makes no sense from a town perspective

[Karnage]

LOL.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64492

now shush.

In that game you claimed cop with a guilty result on Titus in your second post of day 2. then later you renegged on that claim . Titus was later lynched and turned out to be a vanilla townie and in the end you were actually a cop. I missed if you ever actually caught scum in that game but I did see that town lost big time.

was there something else everybody was supposed to take from that game?

[Karnage]

Go look at Karnage. He flew under the radar on Day 1, then only shows up today when he needs to defend or jump on a wagon. Don't fall for his shit.

go back and read my iso and tell me I was trying to fly under the radar... the fact of the matter is that I wasn't

I'll UNVOTE: RC because there is a chance that RC is town though I'm doubting it

[Karnage]

Karnage, MORE THAN ONE PERSON (including myself) noted that you weren't doing anything memorable YESTERDAY.

did you look at my ISO?

[Karnage]

did you look at my ISO?

[Karnage]

I did. All surface level shit until you jumped on Ircher.

you were wrong in 204 and you are wrong now, its just now you don't want to admit it

at that point I had 23 posts I think and you had 27. I'd gladly put my contribution to the game at that point up against yours. I'm more than happy to put my contribution throughout the whole game against yours.

[Karnage]

Correct.

But it seems that Adenine's scum anyway.

@UTL, there's a guilty on Karnage anyway, correct?
I'm not sure why you're arguing with him?

Is there a guilty on me? what result did you get? or is this the same "guilty" you got on Titus in that game you linked to?

p-edit

lets do it then

[Karnage]

VOTE: RC

this play is not town motivated. he won't fully claim but he expects other PRs to counter-claim him? If I'm bullet proof what do I do? he's claiming cop OR tracker. And my money says if/when somebody does he's going to just say it was just RC being RC and he was pushing reads.

go back and look at the game that HE referenced... he claimed a guilty on Titus who later turned out to be a vanilla townie and he did that as town! I don't get why anybody would doubt he would do this as scum.

No PR should claim until RC fully claims his role and any result he says he has on me. Then if he isn't CC'd I will unvote

[Karnage]

I refuse.

If I'm scum then the real Tracker/Cop/JK will CC me.

and then scum know exactly who to kill tonight. sounds like a great plan

[Karnage]

I don't like how Ircher and Karnage are both playing the 'DON'T CC' angle because they know that's the only way to keep Karnage alive here.

No, I'm saying nobody should CC until you claim your role fully.

[Karnage]

If you're double goon me claiming my role outright will confirm whether I can possibly be docced overnight or not.

and you'll know the setup and who to kill tonight if some CC's

If JK counters -> you know whether we are in 1 or A and your partner kill the JK tonight
if BP counters -> well BP can't counter because you are claiming two roles
if Cop counters -> you know if its 2 or B and whether there is a doc to protect him. if there is you just RB the cop and hope you hit the Doc
if Tracker counters -> you'll then claim BP trying to push your scum reads and draw the NK, which would either draw out a CC from the real BP or the Doc

[Karnage]

Broo did not CC me.
Utl did not CC me.
You did not CC me.
Karnage did not CC me.
Adenine did not CC me.
Edge did not CC me.

Are we good now?

How can somebody CC you when you haven't actually claimed your role?

Nobody should hammer me until RC has fully claimed and once he does be sure to state intent so I have a chance to claim my role

[Karnage]

Also, I would prefer Karnage does not claim yet.

it seems like nobody but me thinks RC needs to claim fully so what is the point in dragging things out any further?

[Karnage]

Hmm... maybe I should hammer Karnage as he wants RC to claim fully.....

Am i supposed to take this as intent?

[Karnage]

Also, Karnage, broo actually stated intent to hammer. So if that's what you're waiting for...

By the way, is it common to lynch almost a week before the deadline? That seems a little bit fast, but I suppose if we have an investigative guilty result it makes sense...

I'm 1-shot BP so RC is either lying scum or crazy town (ala that game he linked to)