Newbie 1687 (Game Over)

[FrogSC2]

Hi all! I'm officially replaced in for Guttsa! I'll catch up tonight.

A few initial thoughts/questions:
1. What are all of your experience levels in mafia/werewolf type games?
2. How do you handle pressure?
3. I see some reads lists so far, can everyone please post your reads? (top 3 town reads, top 3 scum reads, +extras leaning slight town or scum accordingly. NO NULLS.)
4. Are you analytical players or mechanical players?

I'll answer first in fairness:
1. I have 5 years of mafia experience with 3 years of forum mafia experience across sites
2. I either attack it head on, or depending on the timing (especially in F5), disregard it entirely and remain focused on demanding unanswered questions from scum reads.
3. I will get to this tonight or tomorrow with abbreviated ISOs.
4. I am an analytical player for the first 3 days regarding post content, and become much more mechanical after D3 with VCA and P2P interactions

Looking forward to playing with you all!

[FrogSC2]

lol Frog's here. quite a coincidence.

interesting playstyle...hard to read imo. ok glgl see ya'll tomorrow

Lol. Hey Panther!

Does mafia share day and night chat in this game variant? Didn't see it in the OP.

[FrogSC2]

lol Frog's here. quite a coincidence.

interesting playstyle...hard to read imo. ok glgl see ya'll tomorrow

Lol. Hey Panther!

Does mafia share day and night chat in this game variant? Didn't see it in the OP.

It used to be just night chat. Then they were trial running daytalk for scum, but not sure if that trial period has ended yet.

I wish I could hard clear you for that question alone, but I know you're a crafty soab. So I can't.

I've already hardcleared someone in this game for similar reasons, you'll pick up on it. I'm keeping it close for now.

I asked in the queue but because the OP didn't mention it I wasn't sure if I'd be able to clear a player or not. Now I know I can.

Honestly, I don't want to be hardcleared this early. It'd be nice to play a little longer than N1.

[FrogSC2]

Frog's questions:

1. What are all of your experience levels in mafia/werewolf type games?
This is my first game on any site. Technically I signed up for a marathon game on here once but it got cancelled before it started =/

2. How do you handle pressure?
I can't say how I handle it in mafia games because I have no exp. Based off of my irl pressure handling, I'm not very forward, as in I don't like to cause conflict nor involve myself in it, and if i have to or get bored enough to face pressure, results may vary!

3. I see some reads lists so far, can everyone please post your reads? (top 3 town reads, top 3 scum reads, +extras leaning slight town or scum accordingly. NO NULLS.)
With that setup of 3 and 3 there couldn't be any extras for slights really unless you want us to include our reads of the 2 people you and Panther replaced (one of which posted like hi and that was it). I will do so after I finish homework tonight though!

4. Are you analytical players or mechanical players?
Again no exp prior to this so it's hard to say, but I'm not a very analytical person in general, and I'm not sure what being a mechanical player means. Whatever can be classified as going on this feels off or this person seems ok- if that's mechanical then that!

KK Thanks!

The experience question is important so players can know what plays they can make with you, whether it's bussing a teammate, lynchbaiting a town, decoying for you, double decoying etc.

The importance extends beyond that so that players know how to categorize you as a player.

These are a few examples Yayap posted on my home site:

Meta for me is more of a level system...


Level 1: person is straight and has no double meanings.. what he says is what he means.

Level 2: person lies all the time.. what he says doesn't carry much weight.

Level 3: person lies but has a purpose to his lies.. like claiming false feedback. (claiming sheriff reads on someone to sway sheep)

Level 4: person is info hoarder.. the people who don't share what they really think, but tend to lead others into a train of thought for their own purposes. (usually dumping their findings all at once when they think they have found scum instead of progressive)

Level 5: decoy person.. someone who will convey info that someone else wants to share but is a high priority target for scum. Like a citizen claiming to be jailor to relay info the jailor told him.

Level 6: decoy lvl2 person.. similar to Level 5 but without direct contact with the other person. This is mostly analyzers who read between the lines and catch on to something that someone is trying to silently leak out without out most people seeing it.

Level 7: double/triple/etc meaning person (cpt WIFOM).. someone who posts one thing that can mean multiple things depending on how it is read.


When I take meta into account, I usually place a player into one of those levels and also determine what level he can read. For example, if someone knows how to reads a lvl5 decoy person, claims a role that I know can't fit in, I won't press the issue even though I know he lied, because he is most likely to be covering/backing up someone else (to which I usually go and find). But if someone of a lvl 1 says the same thing, I might go after him like no tomorrow.

[FrogSC2]

Hi new people, good to have replacements in. I'll hold off on any vote changing until you've had a fresh look through, might come up with something interesting.

First game so don't know about pressure in mafia game. Not sure what mechanical vs analytical means. Posted reads just before you guys joined.

Howdy Batman,

I'm coming up on post 53.

I'll have some questions for you in a couple of hours once I'm ready.

This is where I'm at with you at the moment.

I can see you're an inexperienced player, you respond to pressure very easily twice, sometimes when it's not necessary, with poor but fair reasoning, and you've defended Drixx and suspected the early Drixx train votes. You've very aware of the voting atmosphere and act on it.

For now, what I'm curious to see, is whether you decided to pursue your theory further on those early voters on Drixx in the first 2 pages. Have you followed how those players have acted and played since your post:

I think Kirroha and Drixx each have 3 votes on them, would they count as bandwagons?

I'm sticking with my vote, I'd expect the IC to be most experienced at finding mafia so they'd want rid of him, putting a third vote on them is the most suspicious thing I've seen (not really seen much suspicious yet)

I'm asking because already I've noticed something very off going along with your theory and I'm wondering if you can spot the same thing.

[FrogSC2]

Hi all! I'm officially replaced in for Guttsa! I'll catch up tonight.

A few initial thoughts/questions:
1. What are all of your experience levels in mafia/werewolf type games?Super Newbie
2. How do you handle pressure?WIFOM
3. I see some reads lists so far, can everyone please post your reads? (top 3 town reads, top 3 scum reads, +extras leaning slight town or scum accordingly. NO NULLS.)you will see my list, best i can generate thus far
4. Are you analytical players or mechanical players?WIFOM

BTW, I would love a similar analysis as you gave Rufus, who is one of my 2 scum reads.



Looking forward to playing with you all!

Hi there!

I'm on post #105

I'll eventually post your ISO, but maybe not today. I've noticed you have the potential to be an incredible tone reader and I think you're getting way too bogged down in WIFOM. I don't see more reason to comment on your play because you're a strong town read for me.

[FrogSC2]

Welcome to the replacements. I am a little confused why FrogSC2 wants to throw in a 2nd RQS instead of catching up and engaging with the game afterwards, but I'll be his huckleberry.

1. What are all of your experience levels in mafia/werewolf type games?

I first played the game as a live party game as a teenager. I started playing it on another site about a decade ago and I read posts and wiki articles on this site for a couple years before I joined about 15 months ago. I guess you could say extensive.

2. How do you handle pressure?

I take things as they come. I try not to get stuck in any ruts, so there's not really a way to answer this.

3. I see some reads lists so far, can everyone please post your reads? (top 3 town reads, top 3 scum reads, +extras leaning slight town or scum accordingly. NO NULLS.)

I don't really post reads lists; especially when its demanded. What I

do

give is my thoughts on folks, as I interact with them. Occasionally I'll make a post with thoughts on several or even all players, but you won't get any kind of ordered list from me. I find that kind of approach to constrict my thinking and cause me to either fall into confbias or fail to re-assess and miss scum as a result.

4. Are you analytical players or mechanical players?

I am a rational player. I don't buy into the probabilistic side of VCA because even with a large sample size analyzed, the statistical results of any large scale probability study cannot be used predicatively in individual situations. The psychological observations of VCA have some merit, but as often as not I've seen players just use VCA as an excuse to feed confirmation bias. It's much more important to look at the context of votes and actions than just the changes out of context, in my opinion.

As a note, I wanted to use a color to show my answers clearly, but I didn't want to put these answers in my IC color. This isn't the sort of thing the IC color is meant for.

Howdy Drixx, rest assured, I am very caught up. I'm on post #143.

While I'm catching up on this low content game I wanted basis for the players I would be playing with. These aren't random questions about hobbies and interests. They're foundational questions. Not unlike you asking literallypam what his experience level was. We're in agreement in asking the same questions, but you disagree with my asking the questions?

I've noticed with you in particular that your tunnelvision has inhibited the development of this game. Perhaps purposefully. I've seen no drive for content from you other than repetition of questions to literallypam that was apparent he either was unwilling or unable to answer. You had 2 options. Go for the lynch or play around it. Instead of playing it slow and developing more content from and around Pam before the inevitable lynch, you pretty much killed the day. Not only that, you haven't really even commented on the other players. I'm very skeptical of this null content playstyle. If you want to be purposefully unreadable, that's your prerogative, but you're not putting town in a beneficial situation down the road if you are town.

[FrogSC2]

I hope that didn't sound too hostile, it's a suggestion to lead town with directed questions towards more players. I will be doing this shortly.

[FrogSC2]

Actually, since we're currently actively engaged and I'm openly claiming you're in a tunnel vision,

@Drixx

I'd like to know your thought process on Kirroha's early voting pattern and motivations. Please pay close attention to Post #39 from Rufus, Post #40 from Kirroha, and the content before that.

I'd also like for your alignment reads based on this.

If you feel there is more to Kirroha than this, then please elaborate why that is more alignment telling than what I am suggesting.

I'd like to understand how you think and how you interpret motivations.

[FrogSC2]

@Kirroha

I'll ask you questions that I want you to expand on.

What is your take on Drixx's case on Literallypam? Is it a valid case?
Literallypam has flat out refused to answer a string of questions.
But more importantly, Literallypam has shown a blatant disregard for D1. There has been no scumhunting, contradictions, or expression to explain any reasoning behind literallypam's motivations for actions.

Do you feel Drixx has or hasn't addressed other players seriously? In other words, has Drixx demonstrated scumhunting or solving questions elsewhere

enough

or even at all to be considered as opening the field of play? Why or why not?

[FrogSC2]

I agree with notachipmunk, even though Kagesong and Literallypam both seem scummy to me, I doubt they're a team.

Guttsa's reaction to being accused did seem excessively defensive to me, I didn't get any sense of

intense rage

from Kirroha in the questioning so it was odd, Guttsa might have been having a bad day but I guess we won't find out if they're being replaced.

Drixx seems very focussed on Literallypam, same for Kirroha on Guttsa.


I went back over Kagesong's posts and I'm more convinced now:

43, 58, 61, 99, 127 for assuming some kind of tricky lies are afoot, seems like the mindset scum would be in
54 for enjoyment of Psychological warfare (seems scummy to me)

99 (again) working out nightkills, the others are more tone, this one seems more solid to me: from the previous posts, it's clear the Kagesong likes using this WIFOM reasoning...

If he's scum, he's putting out a name that he knows isn't going to get NKd, he's distracting attention and then he'll probably kill me and say "Why would I kill the guy who's pushing for my lynch? It's too obvious so it can't be me, besides, I already pointed out who the NK should logically be."

If he's town, why would he think scum want Guttsa dead? Guttsa didn't say anything of note other than a counter-accusation against Kirroha, the suggestion that scum should night kill Guttsa came out of nowhere.



Since I think Kagesong is scum, and a team with Literallypam is unlikely, I don't think Literallypam is scum, despite sounding scummy.

Guttsa case, other than the overreaction, seems weak to me, seriously go look at the ISO, 6 posts, 5 excluding the RQS reply: 1 questioning an IC lynch (apparently a common mistake among us newbies), 2 getting angry about getting accused (maybe scummy I agree), 1 giving a (are you thinking fraudulent?) explanation for the overreaction and 1 calling out a lurker.

I doubt Hawkleader is scum...don't know how things go in general here but I'd guess that scum newbies would be less likely to drop out than townies.

As a guess I'd say Kagesong is scummily teamed up with either Reubus or Drixx...can't say which.

Rufus, very similar questions that I've just asked the Drixx and Kirroha.

1. Why do you think Drixx is tunnel visioned on Literallypam? Does you disagree with his and Reubus' strong case? If so, what part of it is wrong and what part of it right? Who else has Drixx hunted?

2. Why do you think Kirroha was/is against Guttsa? Please take a look back at your post 39 I previously quoted. And then note Kirroha's subsequent post #40 I believe. Who was Kirroha voting before then? What do those two players that Kirroha voted have in common? Can you see the link between your post 39 and why I'm bringing up these questions? Think it through in a post, I'd love to hear your thought process on this.

[FrogSC2]

@Kagesong

Truth be told, the Scum's best strategy now would be to kill you tonight. That would, by your own statement make Kirroha seem guilty, regardless of her guilt. Actually I would be more suspicious of Kirroha if you remain alive.

I'm not going to address the WIFOM in here, the takeaway I get is that you have a scum read on Kirroha. I may be wrong.

How do you read Kirroha and WHY? What quotes pinged you as scum/town? You're a tone reader, which posts (didn't) feel right?

[FrogSC2]

@Literaallypam

You've dodged a LOT of questions. You may not even realize that you're doing it. The case on you right now is VERY strong.

My secondary FOS is Rufus, because I think I do look extremely scummy right now, he seems to be playing the middle ground.

In this quote you say Rufus is taking a middle ground, and therefore one of your scum reads, but Rufus pretty much defended you calling your case weak.

Reubus, I get that, that's why I'm not voting atm.

Not sure who looks scummy right now, literallypam case seems weak for the same reason you gave, they're not pushing for anything.

I'd say kagesong might be suspect, surely scum would be the ones who enjoy engaging in psychological warfare and someone in a lying mindset would see the ways innocent comments could be sneaky lies.

But then maybe I'm biased because they're voting for me.

I realize you backtracked saying you meant to say Reubus was your town read previously, not Rufus, and it was a name mixup.

1. Why would Rufus call your strong case weak?
2. It seems like you've spent all your time answering questions against you. Do you feel you've been overly defensive instead of actively scum hunting and pushing the game forward?
3. Do you feel Rufus has been overly defensive? Or has he been reasonably defensive? Or maybe you feel he's been aggressive? I'll leave you some of Rufus' quotes:

This was in response to an RVS vote

Oddly enough, I've never actually seen the film.

Though just like the DeLorean car; I am a triumph of style over function, and my footprints set on fire when I travel through time.

This was in defense of Kagesong's accusation of a tone read on Drixx with a basis of 'privileged information'

I don't

know

that Drixx is a townie but there's a 7/9 chance that they are...I guess that goes for everyone though.

Like I said, not much to go on at that point.

This is further defending against Kagesong about speculative WIFOM, do you think Rufus' answers were rational? Why didn't Rufus defend himself in the manner he did previously, he seems to have continued his defense instead. Forget about the part of the post that concerns you. I know your stance here is he's taking a middle ground. I agree with that part for THIS post.

Surely those reasons only work if you start off with the assumption that we're both scum.

If you started from the assumption that we're town then those would be reasons to further assume we're town. i.e.

Your assumed carelessness as to who gets lynched gives you a more innocent air.

Therefore they seem innocent, so town

As for the other, his desire to protect another player in round one. It could suggest that he's doing so to appear as a good guy.

So I'm a good guy, also town.


I'm not sure about literallypam, I mostly got the impression that they just quickly skimmed the first page and posted after getting poked...it could have been a scummy attempt to push Drixx to L-1 without realising that people had changed votes, so I'm not claiming that literallypam is town, just that the reasoning you gave is flawed.

Literallypam seems scummier to me now than Reubus, basically same reasoning as before, admittedly weak reason.

UNVOTE: Reubus Swagrid

This is him defending his same original opinion, this time against Kagesong's WIFOM, and Reubus' prod. Does it seem like he's almost admitting being scum, caving into pressure here? His response to Reubus actually has good logic, do you agree? Is this another defense post? He says your case is weak, do you actually think the case against you was weak? This was one of my intiial questions to you.

@Kagesong - one might think that way, there's not really any way to respond to that though...act like a bad guy?

@Reubus - Same reasoning is that I reckon lynching the IC on the first day is likely to benefit scum...is that really such a scummy thing to suggest? Is it wrong? I'm legitimately asking since I've not played before, the reasoning sounds right to me but it apparently makes me look scummy.

You could have been random voting or maybe trying to sneak a real vote into the middle of a drixx lynch, I admitted it was a weak reason and since we're out of RVS, I'm not voting based on it anymore.

This is another defense post against Reubus. Does it seem like he's backtracking his scum read on Reubus because Reubus' logic was too strong of a lynch candidate? Or because he legitimately doesn't scum read Reubus anymore? Did he just admidt his Kagesong read was OMGUS? Kirroha certainly seems to think so as she comments later.

Reubus, I get that, that's why I'm not voting atm.

Not sure who looks scummy right now, literallypam case seems weak for the same reason you gave, they're not pushing for anything.

I'd say kagesong might be suspect, surely scum would be the ones who enjoy engaging in psychological warfare and someone in a lying mindset would see the ways innocent comments could be sneaky lies.

But then maybe I'm biased because they're voting for me.

Does this tone seem defensive, reactionary? Is this really scum hunting?

Since I know I'm town, someone making a bad case against me seems scummy to me, you all don't know I'm town so I accept I might be biased.

I already pointed out that kagesong's case was flawed because it relies on crap reasoning: statement sounds towny, scum want to seem towny so he's scum

Seriously, is accepting possible mistakes in reasoning scummy now? I really don't get how this works.

Does he transition out of this well? If so, what is his focus if not on you?

[FrogSC2]

Tunneling is only bad if the person tunneling isn't re-assessing and ensuring that it isn't a confirmation bias spiral. I am fairly certain I've re-assessed a few times and this isn't confirmation bias. literallypam simply made a statement trying to push me and had nothing to back it up and has repeatedly dodged questions, to the point where I see no town motivation. LP could easily have copped to having not really had justification for what was said and moved on long ago. There has been literally nothing but lurking and refusal to address direct questions.

I'm interested in why you think we (or me, specifically) need to solve the entire game right this second. I think I've found scum, so why would I want to distract the rest of the game by wandering off and doing something else? I am fairly certain literallypam is scum and I have enough experience on this site to know that if I start pushing other people, I could end up giving my biggest scum read a free pass out of the day, and the very sad truth is that I could be spot on with my read, get night killed, and literallypam could skate through to a win. For whatever reason, the meta here on this site includes basically ignoring what the people who get night killed say and do. It gets written off as WiFoM since you could view the night kill choices a variety of ways.

If you have a case to make about someone, then make it. Your recent string of posts has the distinct look of setting up people to have a go at each other, and that doesn't at all seem like a good idea.

Your main point is a defense of your play, do you realize you're being defensive?
You say the only objective is pegging your scum read and ignoring the rest of the game.

What if you're wrong and literallypam flips town? We're left with a wasted day with no more content.
What if literallypam flips scum and we're left with "well Rufus defended literallypam, that's literally our only lead."

I cannot agree with your strict tunnel vision and

blatant

refusal to go further.

In fact I think you're doing the game a disservice to not explore and open up the field.

You have purposefully dodged my VERY specific range of questions I've asked you in an effort to close the day here and now and deny town any chance at content generation.

I'm going to ask you again, because you have exhibited, and confirmed, a

purposeful

overlook of the rest of the rest of the game:

What is your alignment read on Kirroha based on the first 50 posts? Why?
What is your alignment read on Kirroha baed on the game as a whole? Why?

I'm not going to let you frame my argument for you to agree or disagree with. I have a post prepared to drop on a moment's notice. The purpose of asking

YOU

this question is to get

YOUR

opinions on other players. The reason for this is because your opinions on other players are admittedly PURPOSEFULLY being withheld. I cannot fathom a reason for a town to do this D1. You are purposefully putting town at a disadvantage. I'd really rather not pursue you D1, but if you're going to be blatantly unwilling to engage the game at large beyond one lynch, you'll have painted yourself as an obvious scum.

[FrogSC2]

You're wandering into IIoA territory FrogSC2. You are pushing for other people to attack one another and asking leading questions but what seems totally absent is any actual hard analysis from you. You aren't going on the record with what

you

think about people, except in the abstract "X could be viewed in Y way ... what do YOU think person Z?" kind of way. Getting super bad vibes.

I'm doing what you, and other experienced players, should be doing if you want to be teaching how a Town leader opens the field D1.

I'm not even going to touch your discredit of IIoA. That's not only incorrect, it's a low blow.

I'm mechanically pitting scum reads against each other, forcing them to comment on each other in a way that is public and must be honest.

I'm also teaching Town how to go about scum hunting instead of immediately feeding them my analysis.

We have days, you can choose to let me play this out, or you can continue you efforts to close D1 with our VERY limited content and very limited thought about said content.

[FrogSC2]

I agree with notachipmunk, even though Kagesong and Literallypam both seem scummy to me, I doubt they're a team.

Guttsa's reaction to being accused did seem excessively defensive to me, I didn't get any sense of

intense rage

from Kirroha in the questioning so it was odd, Guttsa might have been having a bad day but I guess we won't find out if they're being replaced.

Drixx seems very focussed on Literallypam, same for Kirroha on Guttsa.


I went back over Kagesong's posts and I'm more convinced now:

43, 58, 61, 99, 127 for assuming some kind of tricky lies are afoot, seems like the mindset scum would be in
54 for enjoyment of Psychological warfare (seems scummy to me)

99 (again) working out nightkills, the others are more tone, this one seems more solid to me: from the previous posts, it's clear the Kagesong likes using this WIFOM reasoning...

If he's scum, he's putting out a name that he knows isn't going to get NKd, he's distracting attention and then he'll probably kill me and say "Why would I kill the guy who's pushing for my lynch? It's too obvious so it can't be me, besides, I already pointed out who the NK should logically be."

If he's town, why would he think scum want Guttsa dead? Guttsa didn't say anything of note other than a counter-accusation against Kirroha, the suggestion that scum should night kill Guttsa came out of nowhere.



Since I think Kagesong is scum, and a team with Literallypam is unlikely, I don't think Literallypam is scum, despite sounding scummy.

Guttsa case, other than the overreaction, seems weak to me, seriously go look at the ISO, 6 posts, 5 excluding the RQS reply: 1 questioning an IC lynch (apparently a common mistake among us newbies), 2 getting angry about getting accused (maybe scummy I agree), 1 giving a (are you thinking fraudulent?) explanation for the overreaction and 1 calling out a lurker.

I doubt Hawkleader is scum...don't know how things go in general here but I'd guess that scum newbies would be less likely to drop out than townies.

As a guess I'd say Kagesong is scummily teamed up with either Reubus or Drixx...can't say which.

Rufus, very similar questions that I've just asked the Drixx and Kirroha.

1. Why do you think Drixx is tunnel visioned on Literallypam? Does you disagree with his and Reubus' strong case? If so, what part of it is wrong and what part of it right? Who else has Drixx hunted?

2. Why do you think Kirroha was/is against Guttsa? Please take a look back at your post 39 I previously quoted. And then note Kirroha's subsequent post #40 I believe. Who was Kirroha voting before then? What do those two players that Kirroha voted have in common? Can you see the link between your post 39 and why I'm bringing up these questions? Think it through in a post, I'd love to hear your thought process on this.

@Rufus

I made an error in my 2nd line of questions:
"Who was Kirroha voting before then? What do those two players that Kirroha voted have in common?"
Should read:
"Who was Kirroha voting after that? What do those two players that Kirroha voted have in common?"

[FrogSC2]

@Reubus

The activity in this game is a joke

Be the change!

What I like about you is that you've actually been engaging with the range of players at least. Not to mention I generally agree with your conclusions. I only have a couple of minor pings from you, but they're not worth discussing.

The only thing that would be nice from you is to open up your null reads. Particularly notachipmunk. I have him as a null read as well. The only prod I could see is his IMO incorrect statement of Rufus not being defensive. I've quoted the string of Rufus' posts. It's pretty much a dead-end string of questions though. Oh, I found a question for him.

@notachipmunk

I don't like your first post either.
I don't think it was an innocent, random vote.
I think you're trying to pass by the radar undetected. You want the arrows pointing to other people (Drixx, me), but never to you.
You never gave me reason to trust you, quite the contrary.

First of all, I'm newbie at this game (my first mafia game), so it's possible I'm saying something stupid.
It's a bit suspicious how

intense

is your rage at me, if I end up dead, things will turn ugly for you (my innocence will be proven)!
Nice of you, putting a rope in your neck, so soon in the game.
Apparently I was right about you being an unstable individual. xD

I feel like guttsa got a bit defensive and also stopped posting after their interactions with kirroha were over. I get that they're totally new (as I am too) so that may be part of it, but they also tried a little too hard to point the finger back at kirroha.

VOTE: Guttsa

As far as how I see literallypam and kagesong as they both could be scummy, the fact that they know they're acting scummy and kinda putting targets on themselves is keeping me from pushing either too strongly either way (yet), but I don't think

both

are scum, just dunno which one to be more wary of.

Ok, pushing the game in another direction but not really exploring your biggest scum reads.

Question : In your quote, who is "they also tried a little too hard to point the finger back at kirroha". Who is they?

The activity in this game is a joke

I agree. It seems like people are just confused, and I'm not really learning anything from it all.

@kagesong
Don't let people play dumb and close the game. If you have scum reads, pit them against each other. There is a hell of a lot of content left that was left untouched, don't buy into the idea that there isn't.

It does seem pretty slow, wasn't sure if that was standard here.

Is there a generally good method of getting things moving?

Not sure what else to say, I've already said my suspicions are Kagesong and to a lesser extent Literallypam and they both accept that they look scummy...not sure what to make of their reactions.

@Rufus

It really depends. This is a particularly slow game, and it seems purposeful. READ: Drixx's acknowledgement of this

I've given you some ideas of what to talk about if you want to be helpful. The ball is in your court to follow through.

It is very slow. I think the best thing we can do about it is re-read the 135 or so posts so far and ask questions about things that maybe didn't stick out the first time. Let's see if we can jump start this puppy.

@Drixx

So hypocritical considering your responses to me. You want to ask players questions, but you don't want me to ask players questions. Don't pretend there isn't content, and then shut it down when I open the flood gates.

[FrogSC2]

You're wandering into IIoA territory FrogSC2. You are pushing for other people to attack one another and asking leading questions but what seems totally absent is any actual hard analysis from you. You aren't going on the record with what

you

think about people, except in the abstract "X could be viewed in Y way ... what do YOU think person Z?" kind of way. Getting super bad vibes.

I'm doing what you, and other experienced players, should be doing if you want to be teaching how a Town leader opens the field D1.

I'm not even going to touch your discredit of IIoA. That's not only incorrect, it's a low blow.

I'm mechanically pitting scum reads against each other, forcing them to comment on each other in a way that is public and must be honest.

I'm also teaching Town how to go about scum hunting instead of immediately feeding them my analysis.

We have days, you can choose to let me play this out, or you can continue you efforts to close D1 with our VERY limited content and very limited thought about said content.

By my count you set up at least three 1v1, and you say you are pitting scum reads

against one another

. You are scum reading 2/3 of the game at the moment?

You are welcome to play however you like, but you don't have the right to tell me I'm obligated to play your way or else I must be scum. There are a small handful of people I know who can order me to do something in a game and I'll obey, because they have

earned

my respect. You might like to brag about being the MVP of some other site's playgroup, but this is a gigantic pond you have moved into, and there's lots of other big fish; if I had to guess from the way you are trying to bully me, there's a lot of much

bigger

fish here.

You are free to pursue whatever you would like today, but you aren't going to bully me into anything. Rethink your approach. Bullying me and slamming my approach and trying to take me to task for what I should or shouldn't be doing, in your opinion, isn't going to get me to do squat but dislike you.

To quote one of my favorite television characters: "At a very young age, someone should have told you that you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Sir."

This is a rather personal attack on my character? That... is... a... fallacy? Yes?

If you're ACTUALLY offended by my playstyle, please let me know kindly instead of discrediting my character in a public manner.

Otherwise, it's a game and tone is a strategy.

To put it bluntly, you've said you wanted to do one thing at this point:

Open up the game content by searching through previous posts and asking players questions, but you have hypocritically attacked me for doing so now.

Can you understand why I'm scum reading you and asking you in this tone now?

I think I've made my sound arguments against your playstyle very clear.

Yes, I probably pushed it over the edge considering I've never played with you before, but I expected as the IC and since you expressed desire to open up the game that you would actually be in favor of this, not against this.

You've asked me to frame my argument for you, instead of providing any opinions on other players; something you haven't refuted, and seemingly confirmed aggressively as a part of your strategy.

I'm suggesting your strategy is flawed as a town, in a way that is understandable for not only you, but for other players to understand the argument against you.

I'm sorry if I've personally offended you with my tone and playstyle. That was not my intent.

To address the content of your post that wasn't a fallacy and a personal attack:
The purpose of opening up my lines of questions are multipurposed as I've already stated. I'm not sure if you've read the purpose incorrectly by mistake or on purpose.

1. To pit scum reads against each other
2. To teach town how to scum hunt

At this point in the game, I've found plenty of pings here and there. Forcing players to interact will either increase those pings or level them off. It will also allow players to start thinking about other content they have missed so far.

But MOST importantly, it will DRIVE the creation of content. I don't think we agree with this fundamentally, even though you've expressed a contradictory sentiment to finish the day off in a literallypam lynch right now.

I'll leave this here again:

It is very slow. I think the best thing we can do about it is re-read the 135 or so posts so far and ask questions about things that maybe didn't stick out the first time. Let's see if we can jump start this puppy.

followed by this:

Tunneling is only bad if the person tunneling isn't re-assessing and ensuring that it isn't a confirmation bias spiral. I am fairly certain I've re-assessed a few times and this isn't confirmation bias. literallypam simply made a statement trying to push me and had nothing to back it up and has repeatedly dodged questions, to the point where I see no town motivation. LP could easily have copped to having not really had justification for what was said and moved on long ago. There has been literally nothing but lurking and refusal to address direct questions.

I'm interested in why you think we (or me, specifically) need to solve the entire game right this second.

I think I've found scum, so why would I want to distract the rest of the game by wandering off and doing something else?

I am fairly certain literallypam is scum and I have enough experience on this site to know that if I start pushing other people, I could end up giving my biggest scum read a free pass out of the day, and the very sad truth is that I could be spot on with my read, get night killed, and literallypam could skate through to a win. For whatever reason, the meta here on this site includes basically ignoring what the people who get night killed say and do. It gets written off as WiFoM since you could view the night kill choices a variety of ways.

If you have a case to make about someone, then make it. Your recent string of posts has the distinct look of setting up people to have a go at each other, and that doesn't at all seem like a good idea.

Again, if you personally have an issue with my playstyle, let me know.

But you can't attack my character and then claim I'm being overly hostile.

[FrogSC2]

How many times did I say you were free to play however you liked? I simply won't be bullied, and the moment you attached a threat to try and force me to do what you wanted, you were engaging in bullying behavior.

For the record, most of Kirroha's voting in the first 50 votes was during RVS and may or may not have any significance. I don't know anyone who accurately works out RVS on day one. With some flips and the ability to analyze and work out associatives later on, RVS can be a gold mine. Right this moment? Not so much.

Normally I wouldn't respond to something with a threat attached, but I think you aren't the one who was bragging about being site MVP 2 years running, or at least I couldn't find the quote when I scanned your ISO quickly, so I'm extending an olive branch.

I feel like this is more of a discussion on game theory than the actual game. But I understand why you brought it up.

I'm also of the mindset that pre-flip associations D1 are generally bad and create confirmation bias, and make VCA close to useless D1. However, I have picked up some tells on RVS, especially after I've gotten to the players.

Finally, yes, that was me. Again, if my playstyle offended you personally, I'll immediately adjust it! I don't want to ruin your game. I'd really like to see how you understand motivations behind players actions and how you analyze players.

For the record, I agree with your and Reubus' case on literallypam. I thought it was spot on and you tried your best to pressure him in a way that gentle at first giving him chances to explain himself in a manner that would teach him.

As an olive branch, i'll give you part of my analysis on that particular part of the Kirroha example I was asking you.

[line][/line]

This looks like after Rufus began a weak FOS on the early Drixx voters.

This would inevitably create a precedent leading to focus on analyzing Kihorra going forward, as Kihorra was an early Drixx voter.

The FOS on Kihorra, however ridiculous, was originally made by my sub Guttsa, and supported conceptually by Rufus.

I think Kirroha and Drixx each have 3 votes on them, would they count as bandwagons?

I'm sticking with my vote, I'd expect the IC to be most experienced at finding mafia so they'd want rid of him, putting a third vote on them is the most suspicious thing I've seen (not really seen much suspicious yet)

Demonstrates awareness of game votes.
Suspects Drixx train / defends Drixx

To me this quote below looks like OMGUS from Kihorra rather than a legitimate scum hunt. ESPECIALLY considering her vote HASN'T CHANGED and the reasoning for the vote on my sub is naive at best. I can expand on this later.

More importantly, it looks like it was pre-emptive because it looked like there could be traction on Kihorra from Rufus at this pivotal moment that would open a spotlight on Kihorra.

Bear in mind, Kihorra already had 3 votes on her not including Rufus. I feel that this maneuver was a cunning attempt at avoiding that traction from developing by discrediting Gutssa, the easy player voting her.

Wait, so you want the

wiser person of the group

to be lynched (In the first day)? And you seem happy about that?
That's like starting a PC/console game for the first time, select the tutorial in the main menu, and before the NPC can give you any tips, and info which might clear your doubts, you try to hit him/her in the face
You're the kind of (unstable) individual that I'll stay away whenever I can.

- guttsa

In hindsight I'm switching my vote because hey ~buddying the IC~ anyone?

VOTE: guttsa

Never sits well with me.

I can go into GREAT detail as to why I KNOW Kihorra's reasoning for the Guttsa vote is flawed.

[FrogSC2]

I've never attacked anything but your play, mate. That's the line on this site. Attacking the person behind the keyboard is not acceptable.

You asked me a question (which I've now answered as an olive branch, to which you responded with a very lengthy post accusing me of breaking site rules). You then attached a threat to that question. That makes your play bullying. My only objection is that you felt the need to attach a threat to your request. There's no need for threats.

Despite what you seem to think, I think it's awesome that you are coming in gung ho. That means you are much more likely to be an active player on site and I look forward to playing with you in other queues and larger games.

As for me; if you think I'm scum you're dead wrong.

---

As for your playstyle; aggressive is fine. The only problem I had, at all, was when you put a threat in play. When you tell another player "You will do what I want you to do or else", that's bullying. I think you will probably run into some folks on site who will push back against your aggressive style, and over time you'll adjust a bit, but I would say be who you are. 99% of what you're doing is

great

. I simply am a bit like a pit bull. If I suspect someone I'll invest the time to make sure, and then once I'm sure I bite and hold on.

I get the flaw in that, which you pointed out: if it's a false positive then there is less produced out of today.

I truly feel like a dick now.

That comment about bragging about my mafia history got to me a bit. I felt, since it was out of game, was irrelevant, but if you want to use that as meta for my play I understand and accept that. The purpose of me announcing that was to reach out to other skilled players, not to brag. But truth be told, my playstyle is very arrogant and at times bullying. Just ask Titus I'll of course be more considerate going forward with you, and especially in all future newbie games.

Bottom line, I apologize for my bullying. That's exactly what I was doing. I've found as a playstyle I can use it to gauge emotional reactions to pressure and sometimes provoke a scum slip lost in emotion. This is not the place for that playstyle.

I'll leave the field open for now.

[FrogSC2]

Lots of players bully on site. I just don't let myself be bullied, and I generally don't like to see it in the newbie games. It's an effective strategy to provoke reaction to be sure.

Fair enough.

Is this all you're willing disclose about Kirroha?

For the record, most of Kirroha's voting in the first 50 votes was during RVS and may or may not have any significance. I don't know anyone who accurately works out RVS on day one. With some flips and the ability to analyze and work out associatives later on, RVS can be a gold mine. Right this moment? Not so much.

I wanted to expand on the pitfalls of this playstyle that I've experienced first hand. I've also thought of myself like a dog who found a bone when I'm in tunnel vision.

Aside from the risks of considerably less information in the event of a town flip, the same risks exist in the scum flip.

Even if the D1 lynch is correct within the first hour, the day is killed and no more information on other players is possible.

Forget finding the rest of the scum team for optimal TPR night action targets or future lynches.

Forget clearing town reads for exclusion from future POEs, and using those reads for optimal TPR night actions.

The bottom line is once an obvious lynch appears in sight, there is no more realistic pressure on other players for reads, and there is no more content generated for the future of the game.

I think we're both now aligned in expanding our reads on other players, and asking targeted questions towards players for these purposes.

I simply am a bit like a pit bull. If I suspect someone I'll invest the time to make sure, and then once I'm sure I bite and hold on.

I get the flaw in that, which you pointed out: if it's a false positive then there is less produced out of today.

As a side note, I was happily surprised to see no self-lynch bait this game so far. Or any other nuts opening day gambits. I don't think that type of WIFOM would even be productive in this environment.

[FrogSC2]

@notachipmunk

Yes, I replaced Guttsa. (RIP Guttsa :'( )

I thought that's what you meant by 'they', I was more curious about your motivation but that makes sense. Your tone read of Rufus being passive defensive seems pretty alright to me. You're the true null read. Lol. You'll probably ride to end game if scum make it that far regardless of your alignment. I'm leaning that you're actually a Town. Feel free to comment on any topics I've discussed so far, or dig up something new.

Some topics I've discussed, or want to discuss:

1. Drixx's concealing style - ask him about other players! Give it a go!

2. Kirroha - look through the flow of the game in those posts 0-40. Click on her ISO. Ask her to expand her reasoning for all of her votes. Dig in there! Ask her what she thinks about Drixx's posting style and his case on literallypam.

3. Literallypam - Feel free to explore your thoughts on that case, look at the accusations against her made by Drixx and Reubus. Do you agree with them? If you do, tell them (Drixx and Reubus). If you do but you still find something suspicious about their play, ask them about their play that bothered you. You don't need to be straight forward like that, as scum who know you're onto them tend to be purposefully uncooperative. Sometimes when they react emotionally they can slip this attitude.

4. This one is a different type of 'exercise' - explore kagesong's page 1 - page 2 posts. She accidentally derp cleared herself. Clearing townies is just as important as finding scum, or getting scum to slip.

[FrogSC2]

I'm going to try to wait for everyone to take a stab at questions, counter questions, organic conversations to develop, and Panther to sweep before coming back. ±24 hours seem reasonable?

[FrogSC2]

Also, welcome replacements. I've long awaited your arrivals

*waves*

HAMMER TIME!

... jk

Please don't hammer.

If you want to start thinking mechanically, (the reason I want more conversation), work on POE (Process of Elimination) if/then's. Pretty small game, so there are only 6 alternatives.

Something like this.

POE (Process of Elimination) Last Will

Legend
D1 = Day 1
F3 = Final 3
MYLO = Mislynch and Lose

1)
POE:
literallypam!scum!D1
PlayerB!scum!D2

2)
POE:
literallypam!scum!D1
PlayerB!town!D2
PlayerC!scum!D3

3)
POE:
literallypam!scum!D1
PlayerB!town!D2
PlayerC!town!D3
PlayerD!F3!D4

4)
POE:
literallypam!town!D1
PlayerD!scum!D2
PlayerE!scum!D3

5)
POE:
literallypam!town!D1
PlayerD!scum!D2
PlayerE!town!D3
PlayerC!F3!D4

6)
POE:
literallypam!town!D1
PlayerD!town!D2
???!MYLO!D3

[FrogSC2]

Notachipmunk, I was going to say that myself before doing answers.

First 2 pages of Kagesong is asking how to vote, answering RQ and accusing me.

Maybe accusing me is the clearance?

Frog also just skipped over the NK post which, I will repeat

came out of nowhere

no prompting, no previous discussion of NK, hardly any talk from or about Guttsa and Kirroha prior.

Am I really reading too much into that?

Kagesong is a spew clear town.

If Kage had a private mafia chat, don't you think given the frequent posting style it would be flooded with questions and random chat instead?

Instead asks questions publicly and pretty much spams the thread with fluff.

Anyway, I'm never voting Kagesong. Because obviously Kagesong was my N0 peek. Lol.

[FrogSC2]

Vote Count 1.3

literallypam (3):

Reubus Swagrid, Drixx, PantherPunt

FrogSC2 (2):

kirroha, notachipmunk

Rufus Delorian (1):

kagesong

PantherPunt (1):

FrogSC2

Drixx (1):

literallypam

kagesong (1):

Rufus Delorian

No Vote (0)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

Deadline is Tuesday, March 8, at 8:00 AM CST, which is in (expired on 2016-03-08 08:00:00).

Lol. I guess I'm voting Panther.

VOTE: kirroha

You're PlayerC in my POE lists, and I don't want to distract from the lynch today (despite it being at L-1), I'd like to hear more from you, already asked you a series of questions, Panther asked very similar ones, but obvious he's much nicer.

If you get around to posting your opinions on those issues, maybe you can explain your vote on Guttsa, Rufus, and then Gutsa again? I'm at a bit of a loss as to why you've done these moves, as it looks like classic OMGUS, and attempts at pre-empting traction. It seemed like at L-3 you were under pressure and posted some thoughts that, if true, would expect a more rational line of thought?

Drixx please come in and teach the newbies what is RVS : )

You recognized that Guttsa is inexperienced and has no idea what RVS is, much less the significance of RVS votes or the purpose of the introductory stage of the stage.

Wait, so you want the

wiser person of the group

to be lynched (In the first day)? And you seem happy about that?
That's like starting a PC/console game for the first time, select the tutorial in the main menu, and before the NPC can give you any tips, and info which might clear your doubts, you try to hit him/her in the face
You're the kind of (unstable) individual that I'll stay away whenever I can.

- guttsa

In hindsight I'm switching my vote because hey ~buddying the IC~ anyone?

VOTE: guttsa

Never sits well with me.

Oddly, while you recognize Guttsa is inexperienced and had noo idea what he was doing in his introductory post, you, for some reason, quote it and use it as a justification for voting someone. Twice. Since you've done it again more recently. Instead of commenting on literallypam, drixx, etc. It's headscratching. I've already discussed the content of this post being OMGUS, and looked like you were trying to derail the wagon pressure on yourself when you were at L-1 by page 1. What I'm asking is, why are you holding on to purposefully false logic for voting Guttsa twice? You recognized Guttsa was a noob who didn't know what RVS was originally, and then later use the noob justification for a vote? Really? Is there more to this? Can you see why Panther and I want you to talk about the actual relevant issues today concerning literallypam and Drixx/Reubus?

[FrogSC2]

Inb4 the self hammer.

[FrogSC2]

@Panther

Awesome clean up. I don't want to burry the thread in notes, but do you have any null reads other than notachipmunk?

Kind of Random-

I saw your post in the epilogue of that vanilla game I solo won in F3- I'm still ashamed of that game... Please don't use that as a gauge of my play. I was playing across 5 sites and setting up 2 mid sized games while that game was going on. What I'm saying is, don't assume I purposefully WIFOM imperfect play. For that game, because of my low content and teammates actions, I was forced into that play.

Were you in that anonymous 20er Star Wars game on that site?

[FrogSC2]

Dead game is dead.

Tempted to dump notes with my POE suggestions and say fuck analysis here on out.

Is swearing allowed?

[FrogSC2]

Frog I'll get back into this a bit later. Feel good about you but I'll take a look back at that 15er you mentioned. I was not in that anon game.

Would like to see some people check back in. I hope Pam comes back

This game feels locked because 2 inexperienced randed wolves IMO.

The takeaway from that 15er doesn't apply in a 2 scum setup, but we could take those learnings to extend analysis for newbie game purposes or play rationally and lock it up in POE now. The alternative of POE lock makes it a more interesting game, but it's significantly riskier if it's not that straight forward.

IMO, we can't both die tonight, let's POE a rather certain victory D2 onwards.

I'll likely hammer Pam EOD pending future posts, but I want to prod Kirroha or Rufus/Drixx/Reubus (in that order) before then. Can you join my wagon so day isn't killed early?

[FrogSC2]

Kagesong is a spew clear town.

If Kage had a private mafia chat, don't you think given the frequent posting style it would be flooded with questions and random chat instead?

Instead asks questions publicly and pretty much spams the thread with fluff.

Anyway, I'm never voting Kagesong. Because obviously Kagesong was my N0 peek. Lol.

Kinda interesting, but if Kage had a mafia chat with someone like Hawk or Guttsa and they weren't very responsive he could have tried asking that and got no answers. (though you would know if one of these is true since you replaced one of them!) Anyway I don't wanna think too hard about it since I don't see him anywhere near getting lynched D1 anyway, I just don't think it *100%* clears them.

Inexperienced + range of player interactions works for me beyond the stated as a soft clear at minimum. It's still the spew!town clear weaker argument.

Please don't hammer vote Pam yet, but give opinions on my Drixx/Frog interactions and views, Kirroha's voting behaviours and non-involvement on the center of the field, and Rufus' reads (do they make sense?)

[FrogSC2]

Multiple people, especially newer players, attack and accuse me of scum convincingly now.

I'll give you a jump start:
I'm attacking Drixx, the leader of the Pam train. Use that and content as fuel for your arguments.
I've asked players questions, question my motives for those prods and reasonings for those questions.

[FrogSC2]

*mod prod*

[FrogSC2]

The bottom line is once an obvious lynch appears in sight, there is no more realistic pressure on other players for reads, and there is no more content generated for the future of the game.

I think we're both now aligned in expanding our reads on other players, and asking targeted questions towards players for these purposes.

I'm mechanically pitting scum reads against each other, forcing them to comment on each other in a way that is public and must be honest.

I'm also teaching Town how to go about scum hunting instead of immediately feeding them my analysis.

To put it bluntly, you've said you wanted to do one thing at this point:

Open up the game content by searching through previous posts and asking players questions, but you have hypocritically attacked me for doing so now.

Can you understand why I'm scum reading you and asking you in this tone now?

I'm suggesting your strategy is flawed as a town, in a way that is understandable for not only you, but for other players to understand the argument against you.

To address the content of your post that wasn't a fallacy and a personal attack:
The purpose of opening up my lines of questions are multipurposed as I've already stated. I'm not sure if you've read the purpose incorrectly by mistake or on purpose.

1. To pit scum reads against each other
2. To teach town how to scum hunt

At this point in the game, I've found plenty of pings here and there. Forcing players to interact will either increase those pings or level them off. It will also allow players to start thinking about other content they have missed so far.

But MOST importantly, it will DRIVE the creation of content. I don't think we agree with this fundamentally, even though you've expressed a contradictory sentiment to finish the day off in a literallypam lynch right now.

@Frog
I tried to grab from your Drixx interactions what I found to be most relevant from your responses, there's a lot and I wish I had a tl;dr =p
So I think you are legitimately trying to get some better interactions between people. I think questioning Drixx who is very much convinced literallypam is scum is a risk you were aware could almost make you look suspicious since pam=scum is the popular vote atm. You obviously thought that through since you want people to look into your interactions.
What I do want to know is, if nothing else changes between now and end of D1, do you want literallypam to be lynched? Since right now exploring other options at worst may split the vote, and at best may pick up on other player interactions. But regardless, does he scream scum in your opinion more than anyone else right now?

Also, are you suspicious of Drixx as scum in any way for focusing and being set on his scum read, or do you just want more interactions in general, from him and everyone else?

(if any of this was answered in your other posts by all means link them, this is more than I'm used to reading at one time!)

skunk drunk. waking up in 4 hours for work. (sunday funday does not exist for the gulf)

If you havent read between the lines, yes, Pam is basically a lock scum.

I'm entertaining players for POE purposes

[FrogSC2]

Sorry guys. Real life is too hectic so

I'm going to replace out of a few games which I haven't been able to catch up on

.

I need to do things that require less brain power.

RIP Poe replacement.

@Titus

Low effort game. Plox aggressive.

(Do tags work here?)

[FrogSC2]

Use reply or preview and there's quite a lot of tag explanation at the top. Also you guys come from the same place as Titus. Suddenly this game seems so much less Bizarre to me.

TY for the site tip.

I've played with Titus in ±3 games on my home site across 3 years. All 20-35 games. One game on a central foreign site that happens to host all-star games. I've never played with Panther but we've seen each other's games. I don't know anyone else's current handles from this game across sites. For player meta reference. Don't treat anyone here as masons.

[FrogSC2]

^ Correction I've played in a 13er with Titus as well. I know her meta, and respect her style. I feel her aggressive style would benefit this newbie game for this slot. Am I allowed to PM Titus/other players to request her/anyones replacement for the slot?

[FrogSC2]

Read the rules at the start of the game. Messaging a player about an ongoing game is a really big violation of the site rules here.

And anyway, you are doing very good at injecting aggressiveness into the game. You got me to respond, and with you two and me I think we can get the others involved more. Let's do it, yeah?

what's your read on frog?

Lol. Drixx is orbiting the dark side of the moon possibly all game. Such obvious radio silence.

For the sake of disclosure what I really think, and to encourage Drixx and others to open up:

Town:
Me- because I'm the sheriff jailor obviously
Kaesong- I've discussed this, I could ISO in a scum light, but the first pages D1 told me enough.
Panther- mind meld
Reubus- Pam push + range of interactions (genuine)

Slight town:
Drixx - will be lock clear if Pam flips, good instinct on pressuring, but hypocritical in not opening the game up and withholding opinions on literally anyone other than Pam
Notachipmunk - almost 100 null, but more willing to post about anyone/anything

Slight scum:
Kirroha - logic is off on current vote, avoids center of discussion (being it or discussing Pam/Drixx+Reubus)

Scum:
Literallypam- *uses dodge!* + perspective in posts
Rufus- focused defensive, felt like he was trying to just survive early D1 instead of hunting. +Reads of less logic


Remember, the flips can set up a path of changes in reads. It's ok to change your opinions *as long as you have a good reason and explain it*

The reason I'm setting this list out is to increase openness and discourage selfish play styles that actually hurt town. If no opinions are given, no actual day can exist beyond fluff, troll, or lurk.

[FrogSC2]

In some games, dependent on other players' experience, no reads list are necessary because everyone is capable of reading between the lines. This is not one of those games. I think if we were to go the subtle reads list route, it would quickly devolve into excessive/ unnecessary WIFOM. Not to mention it allows certain players to never commit to posting any opinions at all.

I guess I'm saying, forget fancy play for now. Try to be more open and honest, and if you're genuine it will show in your posts and responses. The obvious major benefit of this is we can develop an easy group POE list after we share our basic reads lists that were willing to stand by.

[FrogSC2]

Multiple people, especially newer players, attack and accuse me of scum convincingly now.

I'll give you a jump start:
I'm attacking Drixx, the leader of the Pam train. Use that and content as fuel for your arguments.
I've asked players questions, question my motives for those prods and reasonings for those questions.

I really thought I was the leader of the Pam train as per this post:

And also because it seems like everyone wants a Drixx lynch but everyone who hasn't voted is scared they'll look bad jumping on now.

VOTE: literallypam

This is RVS, nobody said they wanted a Drixx lynch. Also you're jumping on now? There is no case for Drixx being scum so jumping on this 'wagon' that has no substance would look bad, which is what you seem do be doing.

but whatever floats your boat

You sunk your battleship.

You want lock clear (pending scum flip) before going into the night that bad?

[FrogSC2]

I tried a mod prod last page :-/

[FrogSC2]

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume there isn't any site feature that let's you generate or view current vote count and/or vote history?

@notachipmunk

Only real threat about L-1 is Pam can self hammer if she's scum (and obvious lynch today) and deny town any scum hunting / solving by literally killing the day early. You dig?

[FrogSC2]

So L-1 is bad? And do you think they would do that instead of trying to defend it (or answer any of the 109879087689087 questions presented to them and dodged?)

I'm leaning towards Pam is most likely actually scum.

I'm leaning towards everyone recognizes the Pam lynch D1 is 100% happening.

I'm leaning towards, if Pam were smart scum, he'd self-hammer to deprive town.

So yes, L-1 is a bad thing right now, on ANYONE.

[FrogSC2]

Alright UNVOTE:
If someone else can confirm to me that what Frog is saying is good reasoning that'd be cool. Like I assume that's generally a smart idea but I wanna know for sure that this isn't a don't-vote-pam-because-he-wants-to-spare-him kinda thing.
I am assuming Froglogic > my newbie logic

Use the force young padawon warrior.

Look within you must.

You will know when you are calm, at peace.

[FrogSC2]

Rufus is WIFOM master. Even sounded genuine.

Also, read:
"Follow the Cop" in the Wiki

[FrogSC2]

Spoiler: Holy shit that wall of text

Multiple people, especially newer players, attack and accuse me of scum convincingly now.

I'll give you a jump start:
I'm attacking Drixx, the leader of the Pam train. Use that and content as fuel for your arguments.
I've asked players questions, question my motives for those prods and reasonings for those questions.

I really thought I was the leader of the Pam train as per this post:

And also because it seems like everyone wants a Drixx lynch but everyone who hasn't voted is scared they'll look bad jumping on now.

VOTE: literallypam

This is RVS, nobody said they wanted a Drixx lynch. Also you're jumping on now? There is no case for Drixx being scum so jumping on this 'wagon' that has no substance would look bad, which is what you seem do be doing.

but whatever floats your boat

You sunk your battleship.

You want lock clear (pending scum flip) before going into the night that bad?

What mean?

I've generally included both you and Drixx being the Pam promoters, but I framed a few arguments as Drixx being the leader of the Pam train (when you pretty much were).

You're asking for this recognition.

If Pam flips scum, as you suspect according to your vote, then you'll pretty much be a lock clear town. That would make you the main night kill target, especially is the public acknowledges you as the train leader.

I'm framing Drixx as the leader so in the event of Pam!Scum, Drixx is the preferred NK, because he is the more suspicious of the two of you (to me).

So what I'm saying is, why do you want that recognition of being seen as the Pam train leader?

It's in the open now, so no point in not explaining what I was doing there.

[FrogSC2]

I asked a series of pretty specific questions for:
Kagesong
LiterallyPam
Kirroha
Drixx
Rufus

Got some pretty plain answers. Feel free to dodge or dive into it. It's your choice.

[FrogSC2]

@Panther

Dead game is dead.

Sadness

[FrogSC2]

Still?

Official Mod Prod on 24ers.

Kagesong
Kirroha - who requested replacement
Pam

I'm going to be spending less time on this game. I'll probably post in twilight with full last will.

[FrogSC2]

Wow ... FroGSC2 ... you're going to need to adjust to the site here mate.

I enjoy the ability for relaxed, thorough analysis for backburner games. But are you telling me this inactivity isn't much? Esp for a small game? If this game were 48 hours, the vote shuffling would be intense. Expanded across time, this feels lackluster.

Can I apply for 2 newbie games at once to get the 3 game requirement out of the way? Don't get me wrong, I love the newbie slot, but I want to expand to other parts of the site as well.

[FrogSC2]

You aren't actually obligated to start on the Road to Rome. You must simply complete your first newbie game before you can play in more than one newbie game at a time, and to hit SE status you need 2 newbie games complete and one game elsewhere.

But you can go sign up in another queue any time you like.

If you look at completed newbie games, you'll see that nearly 300 posts is a lot for a day one. I was just as taken aback by the slower pace when I first joined.

The reason I said you will need to adapt to the site is that you've kind of run roughshod over some people's potential plays. Like you pointed out that the PR claim could be WiFoM by a VT trying to draw a kill. Why help the scum team think that through at all? If that

is

a level 2 play, don't help the scum realize it. It's possible they would take the claim at face value and kill it without taking any time during the night to evaluate other slots, and that would be a huge advantage to the town. You pointing out that possibility ensures the scum will evaluate more fully.

Things like that. I haven't done a quote wall just because I don't want to be super negative. The best advice I can give is to play the way you play and just know you'll make some mistakes or some plays that aren't necessarily mistakes but will be viewed as such because of site meta. It's much better to play aggressively and interact and try to actually play the game and make a few mistakes along the way than it is to be passive and lose everything you bring to the table. Which, from what I've seen this game, is a lot.

I hope that makes sense.

I see what you're trying to say. I just don't know if I can adjust to such a slow play to allow levels to plays out, esp in a newbie game where it's unlikely.

I would love to hear your full on criticism. Not just for this game, but for play in general. I'd almost love to heads up with you D1 for this purpose in fast exchange.

[FrogSC2]

yuuuup. :-/

[FrogSC2]

UNVOTE: LiterallyPam

Town:
Me- because I'm the sheriff jailor obviously

I'm probably falling into a silly simple trap here.

This is a lie, I'm the Jailkeeper.

Town wouldn't lie about this, FrogSC2 is the Mafia Roleblocker, we need to lynch him today, I'll jail Kagesong tonight and if there's no kill, we lynch him the next day.

VOTE: FrogSC2

Alternately, if you don't believe my claim, lynch me today and expose Frog's lie then lynch him and Kagesong...kill Frog or Me, that gives the most info

ACTUALLY you just open the door to more WIFOM that is unnecessary. IF we lynch frog or pam, i say pam, then jail me, the scum will simply not NK then I, according to your theory, would be confirmed scum, whether or not i am. HOWEVER, my theory all along has been that you and pam are scum, and that you are playing double to ensure that pam does not get lynched OR if they do that suspicion falls on someone else. You're almost good at this. But, I'm very good at seeing through these loops, I believe most of the town is. We don't play this game because we're bad with psychology. I think you should become the D2 lynch.

end of day i will be voting pam for now

[/unvote] whoever i voted for UNVOTE:
[/vote] Rufus Delorian VOTE:

my vote might have been there, i just want to make sure.

/claps

So proud

[FrogSC2]

Actually Kage, you're terrible at seeing through loops, you've been 100% sure I'm scum since the start and I'm not, I'm pretty sure Literallypam's going to flip town too.

I doubt skipping a NK in the hope of getting a mislynch would benefit scum, they'd be swapping a sure kill for a risky one...they could kill you (if you're town) and implicate me as scum, I doubt that'll happen though.

However, it is your surefire defense of pam, who is basically agreed to be scum, that makes you suspicious. Right now, if she flips scum, you're almost definitely D2 lynch.

correction of mistype earlier

VOTE: Rufus Delorian

Think through POE:

I expect you're not a hottarget despite being cleared IMO.

Also, welcome replacements. I've long awaited your arrivals

*waves*

HAMMER TIME!

... jk

Please don't hammer.

If you want to start thinking mechanically, (the reason I want more conversation), work on POE (Process of Elimination) if/then's. Pretty small game, so there are only 6 alternatives.

Something like this.

POE (Process of Elimination) Last Will

Legend
D1 = Day 1
F3 = Final 3
MYLO = Mislynch and Lose

1)
POE:
literallypam!scum!D1
PlayerB!scum!D2

2)
POE:
literallypam!scum!D1
PlayerB!town!D2
PlayerC!scum!D3

3)
POE:
literallypam!scum!D1
PlayerB!town!D2
PlayerC!town!D3
PlayerD!F3!D4

4)
POE:
literallypam!town!D1
PlayerD!scum!D2
PlayerE!scum!D3

5)
POE:
literallypam!town!D1
PlayerD!scum!D2
PlayerE!town!D3
PlayerC!F3!D4

6)
POE:
literallypam!town!D1
PlayerD!town!D2
???!MYLO!D3

[FrogSC2]

Test.

I'm going to hammer in the last 2 hours.

[FrogSC2]

VOTE: literallypam

[FrogSC2]

Extension Mod... mercy

[FrogSC2]

This was the most crucial part of the game and you totally cock blocked it Rufus. If pam dies town we know we fucked up. If she dies scum, good. Now we have to wait another day plus let one of our own die to find out this crucial information.

Pretty sure we'll get that .75 hour extension for the hammer.

[FrogSC2]

Especially considering the replacements (and those that are to come), the prods.

And the most important... 45 minutes difference between a lynch or no-lynch day.

Anyway, whatever the case, I'll respect it. I was late, so I can only blame myself for not hammering earlier.

[FrogSC2]

Panther, Frog, Reubus - all support extension

2 players who have no say in it: literallypam afk for 4+ days, kirroha replacing

[FrogSC2]

POE is clear IMO. I'm dumping notes in case I'm killed.

POE (Process of Elimination) Last Will

Legend
D1 = Day 1
F3 = Final 3
MYLO = Mislynch and Lose

1)
POE:
literallypam!scum!D1
Rufus Delorian!scum!D2

2)
POE:
literallypam!scum!D1
Rufus Delorian!town!D2
kirroha!scum!D3

3)
POE:
literallypam!scum!D1
Rufus Delorian!town!D2
kirroha!town!D3
Drixx!F3!D4

4)
POE:
literallypam!town!D1
Drixx!scum!D2
Reubus Swagrid!scum!D3

5)
POE:
literallypam!town!D1
Drixx!scum!D2
Reubus Swagrid!town!D3
Kirroha!F3!D4

6)
POE:
literallypam!town!D1
Drixx!town!D2
???!MYLO!D3

[FrogSC2]

The deadline is the deadline and FroGSC2 caused a no lynch, and I believe it's intentional. I believe he's scum and have strong reasons for that belief. He called out what I have reason to believe was a VT attempting to draw fire by claiming. If I'm dead in the morning you will see my role and it will make sense. If I'm know, I'll say more.

Mod hasn't checked in yet. We have 3 public votes for the deadline extension due to time missed from replacements and prods today. Will you also vote for deadline extension or not?

[FrogSC2]

In your opinion, do you feel extra time was warranted given the replacements and prods?

[FrogSC2]

3 of us do, so we've said so. Do you agree?

[FrogSC2]

Lol, Panther. Back burner games.

[FrogSC2]

To all the player haters saying my play is purposefully detrimental towards the development of the game, or in other words, anti-town... I'm about to let the mic drop. Peace.

Activity Overview
PM Username First Post Last Post Elapsed Time Posts V/LA Ends
kagesong Feb 24, 06:57am Mar 09, 10:12am 0 days 3 hours 40
Drixx Feb 24, 03:06am Mar 09, 03:54am 0 days 9 hours 30
Rufus Delorian Feb 24, 03:48am Mar 09, 03:52am 0 days 9 hours 34
Reubus Swagrid Feb 24, 04:19pm Mar 09, 03:38am 0 days 10 hours 57
PantherPunt Mar 04, 01:32am Mar 09, 03:20am 0 days 10 hours 26

FrogSC2 Mar 04, 01:27am Mar 09, 03:18am 0 days 10 hours 65

notachipmunk Feb 24, 08:37am Mar 08, 08:41pm 0 days 16 hours 26
Zaicon Feb 22, 04:36pm Mar 08, 02:48am 1 day 10 hours 9
kirroha Feb 23, 11:19pm Mar 06, 02:44am 3 days 10 hours 20
PrivateI Mar 04, 02:18am Mar 04, 03:01am 5 days 10 hours 2
literallypam Feb 26, 10:06am Mar 04, 12:29am 5 days 13 hours 20
guttsa Feb 24, 01:40am Feb 29, 02:06am 9 days 11 hours 6
hawkleader3 Feb 24, 12:07am Feb 26, 03:27am 12 days 10 hours 2

[FrogSC2]

Whatever mod decides, I think we're pretty set.

My gut says it's either as simple as Pam/Rufus or as WIFOM as Drixx/Kirroha

Obviously I'm leaning towards the first pairing based on content analysis.
The second team is weaker content analysis argument, and I'm not chasing Zebra hooves unless I need to.

I'm pretty sure I'm spewed V at this point.
If Rufus really is TPR, then he'll die and it's easy street. Otherwise Rufus!Town needs to night action on Drixx or Kirroha.

The problem with Kirroha's AFK is if Rufus!Town, then it may as we'll be a nilla game. Otherwise we're playing the night action lottery.

I can't tell what level of WIFOM Rufus picked, and it's literally impossible to read Kirroha without interaction, and I picked very limited slips on Drixx.

If it's no lynch, we have a nilla game starting at disadvantage. If Panther dies tonight it'll be a huge blow to Town, but hopefully Reubus covers regardless of alignment. Hope to see Drixx take more lines.

[FrogSC2]

Btw, I'm claiming it now. I'm sheriff jailing Drixx tonight.

Anyone else who claimed or spewed TPRs should announce targets in case of no lynch.

[FrogSC2]

Well I called Literallypam completely wrong...woops.

I'd say Frog definitively claimed Jailkeeper before the night, surely that means the scum is me or him, I'd rather we lynch him first but I can definitely see people wanting me lynched...its a town win even if you do me then Frog so I'm not too bothered about order.

VOTE: FrogSC2

Lmfao. Learn what a decoy is.

And dude, if I didn't push the pam lynch, we'd be in square 1, so just no.

[FrogSC2]

@PhantomCobalt

Hey! We've played together as scum in that 15er right?

[FrogSC2]

POE boys get around it

VOTE: Rufus Delorian

Reubus, yes I agree. Normally I would.

Rufus' play being blatantly pro-Pam should put him in the square POE next in line.

I have 2 main problems with voting him.

1) Neither myself, nor Rufus was killed last night after both of us claimed TPRs. Which means either one of us is scum (I'm not), or Scum is happy with Rufus' position in the POE and risked the RB for one night (very logical). The final option is that the last scum has literally no idea what he/she is doing by not going after me/Rufus.

2) You're voting for a TPR claimer where no one has counter claimed directly yet. If you're expecting me to counterclaim Rufus, I simply won't. In fact I'll straight up claim villager. Until anyone else counter claims the TPR position, I will not be voting Rufus. On the other hand, if the real TPR claims, Rufus will naturally hang.

I will allow everyone the opportunity to TPR claim now (yes I know it's D2, such lols).

[FrogSC2]

@Rufus

Since you suspected me as scum yesterday AND today, I would assume I would have been your prime roleblocking target? Well, did you roleblock me?

Did you notice that there were still kills?

Do you realize that I'm now an officially cleared town?

[FrogSC2]

@PhantomCobalt

Hey! We've played together as scum in that 15er right?

Yes... THAT 15er, where the whole Town was salty afterwards.

[FrogSC2]

@Rufus

So we're left with 3 options:

1) You are the jailkeeper. Who did you roleblock last night? By saying who you roleblocked it officially clears that person. Assuming no one counterclaims with a Town Power Role, I will believe this scenario and we can formulate a new Process of Elimination.

2) You are the second wolf. This strategy would be particularly bad for you do as a wolf, because the real TPR could easily counter claim against you in a heads up 1v1. You cannot win in that situation this early.

3) You are a villager who isn't the Jailkeeper/TPR (Town Power Role) and you're pushing against me for made up reasons. This situation is absurd and very VERY unlikely. In this event, you would have been the likely night kill given your evident self-outting yesterday.

[FrogSC2]

So here's what I think is going to happen.

1) TPR counter claims and Rufus hangs. GG, Town wins.

2) No one counter claims, Rufus is able to clear 1 more person.

Considering we're at 7 players, that limits the POE to 5 players.

Rufus and (assume myself) whoever he roleblocked will die tonight and tomorrow night.

We will be able to narrow down the POE to:
7 players alive, 5 in the POE - D2
5 players alive, 4 in the POE - D3
3 players alive, 3 in the POE - D4 (MYLO)

All we have to do is Town block 2 players in the POE and it should be GG.

AKA, we need a strong POE of 3 players today, assuming Rufus IS the real Town Power Role.

Living players:
Drixx, FrogSC2, kagesong, notachipmunk, PhantomCobalt, Reubus Swagrid, Rufus Delorian

Assuming both Rufus and myself are cleared, players in the POE:
Drixx, kagesong, notachipmunk, PhantomCobalt, Reubus Swagrid

I very much want to make notachipmunk a Town Block member.

Considering Reubus' push on Rufus after the Panther flip, I find this push SOMEWHAT logical for both a villager and a wolf, so I cannot put Reubus as a clear DESPITE the early push on Pam.

Same goes for Drixx, his lines avoided contact with almost everyone else other than zeroing in on Pam (and pushback on me for wanting more lines from him).

I'm HOPING Rufus isn't the real TPR and we can end this in a perfect sweep today, and the real TPR will come forward.

*Note*

If you are the REAL Town Power Role, you need to counter claim Rufus now.

[FrogSC2]

FYI - if we vote at random with the entire 5 POE, we have a 60% chance of winning straight up random.org

If we take notachipmunk out, we have 75% chance of winning straight up guessing the POE today.

[FrogSC2]

This is how we win:

Assuming Rufus IS the TPR, he should announce who he is targeting tonight so that we can clear one more person tomorrow from the POE, making it a broken game.

What that would do:

Assuming Rufus roleblocked me last night, and Rufus is the TPR, and he RBs one more person, and Rufus dies. And we take notachipmunk out of the POE.

It would limit the POE to just 2 players.

E.g.

Rufus
Frog
Player 1 (rbed by Rufus tonight)
Player 2 (notachipmunk)

Player 3- D4 lynch - These players remain in the POE
Player 4- D5 lynch - These players remain in the POE

Player 5 (is lynched today)

[FrogSC2]

Even if Mafia refuses to kill, and frames player 1 as being roleblocked, Rufus will still be alive to roleblock again.

So we lynch player 1 (mislynch), and then Rufus has a 50% chance of roleblocking the correct player out of players 3/4.

So that would either automatically clear player 3, thus we lynch player 4 and it's GG. Or Rufus again doesn't die and we win because we lynch player 3.

If we can assume notachipmunk is a town (which I believe we easily can)
And if Rufus IS the REAL TPR, and CLAIMS who he targetted and who his future targets will be, Town wins 100% of the time.

GG everyone.

Sorry Mafia.

[FrogSC2]

Wait. Let me get this straight. I correctly identified scum on day one, made reasonably sure I was right, and then dug my teeth in and refused to let go ... but somehow I'm in the possibly not town pile? What universe do you live in?

Nice attempt to take credit for literallypam, btw. I already had that slot dead to rights and it was getting lynched when you replaced in. You had nothing to do with it, other than you didn't noise up the thread enough to disrupt the lynch (thankfully).

Drixx, don't take it personally man. Distancing is a common practice and something you should at minimum acknowledge as a valid clearing strategy.

In any case, review my plan, tell me how fullproof it is. We won.

[FrogSC2]

@Everyone

1) If you are the real Town Power Role CLAIM NOW, we lynch Rufus GG

@ Rufus

2) Who did you target last night? Let's come up with a POE list if you are the REAL Town Power Rolen. And please announce your target BEFORE going into the night.

[FrogSC2]

I did jail Frog last night.

If he's the Mafia Roleblocker, as I suspect, who I choose to jail doesn't matter, it also doesn't matter too much if I die, I'm effectively a VT now.

If he is scum, killing me would be wasted, I'm obviously a prime lynching target today and he can just roleblock me each night.

That's all I can think of atm...could be completely wrong, my track record isn't great.

@Rufus

Then I'm officially a clear Town.

If you roleblocked me, I wouldn't have been able to kill Panther last night.

Perfect.

Who are we lynching today? Who are you roleblocking tonight?

IMO, roleblock PhantomCobalt,

ANNOUNCE WHO YOU WILL JAIL TONIGHT AND STICK TO IT. THE PLAN IS IMPERATIVE IF YOU ARE THE REAL TPR.

and we lynch out of:
Reubus, Drixx, kagesong - with a nod to lynching Kagesong today.

[FrogSC2]

Please feel free to talk this out with me if you're here.

I feel like a dick-tator at the moment being a town clear.

[FrogSC2]

Well I called Literallypam completely wrong...woops.

I'd say Frog definitively claimed Jailkeeper before the night, surely that means the scum is me or him, I'd rather we lynch him first but I can definitely see people wanting me lynched...its a town win even if you do me then Frog so I'm not too bothered about order.

VOTE: FrogSC2

Lmfao. Learn what a decoy is.

And dude, if I didn't push the pam lynch, we'd be in square 1, so just no.

Can you explain why you did that JK thing Frog? I mean at first I was like yep sarcasm but after Rufus claimed and then you sorta kinda did too how does that "decoy" work - so Rufus would hopefully jail you to get 2 VTs?

I was hoping to be included as a potential night kill target.

I said "Sheriff Jailor" as a way to be as vague as possible, denoting a vague Town Power Role.

A friend of mine infamously claims Sheriff Jailor at the start of every game he plays.

[FrogSC2]

So far we can assume neither you, nor Drixx, is the real TPR. Correct?

If you can counterclaim Rufus today, please do it now.

Waiting on Reubus, Kagesong, PhantomCobalt to counter claim now.

Rufus - Claims Jailkeeper
Frog - Claim Villager (Town cleared by Rufus)
Drixx - Claims Villager (Did not counter claim)
Notachipmunk - Claims Villager (Did not counter claim)
Reubus - ?
Kagesong - ?
PhantomCobalt - ?


Can you confirm you are a villager Notachipmunk?
Or if you are the real Town Power Role, please claim it now.

[FrogSC2]

Again, the ONLY way Rufus would EVER be lynched today, is if anyone else counter claims him now.

[FrogSC2]

If the remaining scum is the Mafia Roleblocker, my jailings won't clear anyone because the Roleblocker acts before me, says so on page 1 of the game.

If they're a regular goon, I don't know why I'm still alive, even acting randomly at night has an ok chance of stopping a NK.

I'd say Drixx & Reubus are the best choice for cleared town, they jumped on a scum straight off. I'm thinking Kagesong's probably town too for the same reason...I think his WIFOMy style gave me scummy vibes but he was pretty clear about suspecting Pam.

If we're trying to get roles claimed, the existence or not of a bulletproof townie would clear up whether Frog is cleared or not.

Do players receive roleblock notifications?

If so, then Rufus, you'd know if you were roleblocked or not.

[FrogSC2]

for the record, I did not receive any roleblock notifications

[FrogSC2]

The premise remains the same.

Unless someone can counter claim Rufus today, that they are in fact the REAL Town Power Role, then we will NEVER lynch Rufus.

[FrogSC2]

In this case, we're scewed for the plan. Womp.

Also, I received notification that people who are jailkeept are not notified.

[FrogSC2]

I'm tempted to lynch Frog today, just for suggesting that any sane mafia player would kill their only partner and for themselves into having to night kill 3 times and mislynch 3 times to win, all alone, and without getting caught.

To call that "distancing" might be the most absurd thing I've ever read in my life.

Zebras don't poop.

Now you've read something more absurd.

Honestly, I've played in vanilla games with 3 mafia, 12 town, the teammates bussed each other into oblivion days 1 and 2, and the final mafia won.

Distancing, or bussing, is a strategy where you don't want to be associated with your partner.

I agree with Drixx though, I don't want to pressure Drixx over others simply because of his role in developing the Pam train and keeping it focused.

While Reubus maintained the Pam train, I don't like that he's voting the only non counter-claimed TPR. Otherwise I'd have Reubus on the easily cleared list as well.

Notachipmunk joins the cleared train for pushing the Pam vote.

I'm a villa, and I've developed pro-town strategies, even the recent game breaking one that was apparently wrong.

UNLESS SOMEONE COUNTER CLAIMS RUFUS!!!

I think our square POE should be:
Kagesong
PhantomCobalt

[FrogSC2]

IMO:
Kagesong - 1/2
PhantomCobalt - 1/2
Reubus - 3

If you want to replace me out with Reubus, totally fine with that. I think the game will be over before then anyway.

[FrogSC2]

I kind of hate doing this to a newly replaced player, but:

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

[FrogSC2]

FYI, this was my original POE train of thought. Assuming Rufus IS actually the Town TPR, PhantomCobalt would be next on the list.

2)
POE:
literallypam!scum!D1
Rufus Delorian!town!D2
kirroha!scum!D3

[FrogSC2]

FrogSC2 - How do you know there's a roleblocker? There are two setups where a Jailkeeper can exist, and only one of them has a roleblocker.

I have absolutely no way of knowing

[FrogSC2]

The point is, if there is a jailkeeper, there is a possibliity of a roleblocker, which has the potential to completely wreck my plan

[FrogSC2]

I just realized. Assuming the vertical - DO NOT CLAIM BEING A BULLET PROOF! DO NOT DO IT!

[FrogSC2]

I think Rufus hardclaiming jailkeeper D1 is very believable. I believe Rufus' claim almost entirely at this point unless it's counter claimed.

[FrogSC2]

Going back over Kagesong and Kirroha's interactions regarding Pam

[FrogSC2]

Yup.

Kagesong goes after Pam early and always keeps Pam in a firm FOS. That's a check + from me.

Kirroha literally never discusses Pam.

[FrogSC2]

Ok, maybe I'm being dumb here.

What's the risk of claiming bulletproof? Unless two people do it...but then we've got 2 people to choose from as scum.

If no-one claims it, I can jail as directed and we've got a better chance of winning.

If only 1 person claims it, I can jail them. If they're lying, I'll have jailed a regular goon and there'll be no NK. If they're telling the truth, the scum would have to give up a night kill to convince us that the bulletproof guy is scum. It doesn't benefit them any more than just shooting someone else in the night.

If you are as you say you are, then there are 2 options.

1. a bullet proof claim
2. no other TPRs

[FrogSC2]

The bullet proof should absorb mafia shots.

Claiming bullet-proof instantly negates the mafia shots being absorbed.

[FrogSC2]

Game Setup

This game is using the standard Newbie Game setup, Matrix6. One row or one column will be randomly chosen from the table below and the remaining six roles will be filled in by Mafia Goons and Vanilla Townies as appropriate to create a total of 2 Mafia-aligned players and 7 Town-aligned players.

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town 1-Shot Bulletproof	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

Please note:

• The Mafia must specify who is performing what Night action when the actions are submitted.
  
• In applicable situations, a Roleblocker's action will resolve before a Jailkeeper's action.
  
• In applicable situations, a Mafia Roleblocker has the option of submitting both roleblocks and kills, even when the Mafia Goon is still alive.

Spoiler: List of Role PMs

You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Abilities

• During the Day, you may vote for whomever you want lynched.
  
• During the Night, you may sleep.

Win Condition

• You win when all threats to the Town are eliminated and at least one Town-aligned player is still alive, or nothing can prevent the same.

If you have any questions or comments, feel free to PM me. Please confirm your participation in this game by responding to this PM with your role name. The game thread is here.

You are a

Town Cop

.

Abilities

• During the Day, you may vote for whomever you want lynched.
  
• During the Night, you may investigate one player by sending me the name of your target via PM. At the end of the Night, you will receive a result in the form of
  You believe [target] to be [Guilty/Not Guilty]
  . If you did not successfully investigate someone, you will receive
  No Result
  .

Win Condition

• You win when all threats to the Town are eliminated and at least one Town-aligned player is still alive, or nothing can prevent the same.

If you have any questions or comments, feel free to PM me. Please confirm your participation in this game by responding to this PM with your role name. The game thread is here.

You are a

Town Doctor

.

Abilities

• During the Day, you may vote for whomever you want lynched.
  
• During the Night, you may protect one player by sending me the name of your target via PM. You may not target yourself. You will not be informed as to the result of your protection.

Win Condition

• You win when all threats to the Town are eliminated and at least one Town-aligned player is still alive, or nothing can prevent the same.

If you have any questions or comments, feel free to PM me. Please confirm your participation in this game by responding to this PM with your role name. The game thread is here.

You are a

Town Jailkeeper

.

Abilities

• During the Day, you may vote for whomever you want lynched.
  
• During the Night, you may place one player in Jail by sending me the name of your target via PM. They will be protected from kills and prevented from using their own ability, if they have one. You cannot target yourself.

Win Condition

• You win when all threats to the Town are eliminated and at least one Town-aligned player is still alive, or nothing can prevent the same.

If you have any questions or comments, feel free to PM me. Please confirm your participation in this game by responding to this PM with your role name. The game thread is here.

You are a

Town Tracker

.

Abilities

• During the Day, you may vote for whomever you want lynched.
  
• During the Night, you may track one player by sending me the name of your target via PM. At the end of the Night, you will be told if that player targeted anyone and whom that player targeted.

Win Condition

• You win when all threats to the Town are eliminated and at least one Town-aligned player is still alive, or nothing can prevent the same.

If you have any questions or comments, feel free to PM me. Please confirm your participation in this game by responding to this PM with your role name. The game thread is here.

You are a

Town 1-Shot Bulletproof

.

Abilities

• During the Day, you may vote for whomever you want lynched.
  
• You will survive the first kill attempt made on you during the Night. You will not be informed if and when this happens.

Win Condition

• You win when all threats to the Town are eliminated and at least one Town-aligned player is still alive, or nothing can prevent the same.

If you have any questions or comments, feel free to PM me. Please confirm your participation in this game by responding to this PM with your role name. The game thread is here.

You are a

Mafia Goon

with your partner, name (

role

).

Abilities

• During the Day, you may vote for whomever you want lynched.
  
• As a team, the Mafia may kill one player per Night by sending posting on the Mafia thread or sending me a PM with your target and which one of you will be performing the kill.
  
• You may talk to your partner
  at any time, including the Day phase,
  in this thread.

Win Condition

• You win when the Town is eliminated and at least one Mafia-aligned player is still alive, or nothing can prevent the same.

If you have any questions or comments, feel free to PM me. Please confirm your participation in this game by responding to this PM with your role name. The game thread is here.

You are a

Mafia Roleblocker

with your partner, name (

Mafia Goon

).

Abilities

• During the Day, you may vote for whomever you want lynched.
  
• Individually, you may roleblock one player by sending me the name of your target via the Mafia thread or by PM. You may both roleblock and kill during the same Night.
  
• As a team, the Mafia may kill one player per Night by posting on the Mafia thread or by sending me a PM with your target and which one of you will be performing the kill.
  
• You may talk to your partner
  at any time, including the Day phase,
  in this thread.

Win Condition

• You win when the Town is eliminated and at least one Mafia-aligned player is still alive, or nothing can prevent the same.

If you have any questions or comments, feel free to PM me. Please confirm your participation in this game by responding to this PM with your role name. The game thread is here.

For reference

[FrogSC2]

If we get a claim of bulletproof, we can ignore anyone I jail as being cleared because there's a roleblocker...bad for you obviously.

If no-one claims it, you're cleared and so is anyone I jail while a kill happens.

Seems to me like a decent trade-off for losing one possible bullet soaking.

I don't think that works to be honest.

If there is a bulletproof claim, it doesn't clear me, but at least it removes one more person from the POE.

If there is a bulletproof claim, we still can't do the plan.

Mafia has most incentive to claim bulletproof right here.

If there is no bulletproof claim, then we can absolutely follow through with the gamed strategy.

If we pursue this route, I can almost guarantee you Mafia will be forced to claim bulletproof to avert our gamed strategy.

And then we're kind of fucked that way as well.

There may be a chance of TWO people claiming bulletproofs which is a risk the mafia will have to take then, in which case it's an EASY heads up between 2 players.

But this assumes we're on the Vertical, not horizontal.

So...

I'm a bit brain dead thinking it over. I'm just spilling thoughts here.

There's a 50/50 chance we actually have a bullet proof claim.

If we have a real bullet proof claim, then our plan is fucked anyway.
If we have a fake bullet proof claim, then there's a 50/50 chance mafia will counterclaim it.

I'm going to write more clearly in my next post. These are just my thoughts.

[FrogSC2]

Here's my though. Either lynch frog tonight, his plan seems to have enough holes in it that he could very well be trying to devise a strategy to distract from himself. Or, lynch PhantomCobalt. 2 possibilities, we win tonight, or lynch the other one and win tomorrow. That's the real POE. Since Frog claimed Rufus as town, I'm clearing him. I think he is attempting to get a counterclaim out of someone else so that his false counterclaim will be ignored.

The thing is, no one has counter claimed Rufus, so Rufus MUST be town.

[FrogSC2]

Whether or not Bulletproof should claim:

Option 1: We are on the vertical, we have Jailkeeper, Roleblocker, and Bulletproof
Option 2: We are on the horizontal, we have jailkeeper, mafiosos, and vanilla towns

Option 1:
A. Real bulletproof claims.
We can assume we are on the vertical.
I am not cleared.
Bulletproof is cleared.
Our gamed strategy for a 100% lock win is fucked and we have to lynch in the POE correctly.

Option 2:
B. No one claims
I am cleared
We have a gamed strategy that will result in a town win 100% of the time

According to this, we will ALWAYS have a bulletproof claim, as whether or not we actually have one, it's in the Mafia's best interest to claim bulletproof. If Mafia does not claim bulletproof and we are in the Horizontal, Mafia loses. So Mafia MUST claim bulletproof.

I think the BEST way we can go about this is setting up a TRAP for the Mafia.

The Trap:

1) We take turns claiming villager or bulletproof in the order of POE (most likely wolf, to least likely).
IMO This should be the order:
Frog - I already claimed villager
PhantomCobalt - Should be the next person to claim
Kagesong - Should be the next person to claim
Notachipmunk - Should be the next person to claim
Reubus - Should be the next person to claim
Drixx - Should be the last person to claim

===========

This will result in ONE of TWO outcomes:
1) We get 1 bulletproof claim (real or fake)
2) We get 2 bulletproof claims (in which case we lynch the both of them for a GG)

===========

Thoughts?

[FrogSC2]

The risk - the real bulletproof claims before the mafia can.

In this situation, mafia no longer has an incentive to claim, and the trap is dead.

That's why I ordered the POE of claims.

Does anyone want to reorder to Claims list?

[FrogSC2]

Otherwise, we lynch in the POE order, no problem. I just like strategizing.

[FrogSC2]

Just going to check living player list:

1) Drixx
2) FrogSC2
3) kagesong
4) notachipmunk
5) PhantomCobalt
6) Reubus Swagrid
7) Rufus Delorian

As far as I can tell from the litrallypam lynch, Drixx and Reubus are solidly town, Kagesong and notachipmunk seem likely to be town.

I'm town, I'm certain no-one's going to counterclaim at this point because they'd just be announcing themselves as scum...they might get me mislynched today but then it's game over next day after I flip Jailkeeper.

So it's PhantomCobalt (Replacing Kirroha) or FrogSC2 (Replacing Guttsa)

Kirroha didn't do much but she did think Guttsa was scummy, she pushed a bit, got a reaction then Guttsa dropped out.

FrogSC2 did get the killing vote in on LiterallyPam, my question for the more experienced players is: Would you normally expect the deadline to be extended at that point? Frog voted about 45minutes after the deadline if I remember correctly, would that normally get counted? i.e. was it a legitimate vote or intentionally late, hoping for a no-lynch while still voting for scumpartner?

Just to make this clear. My position was always Pam is scummy. I'm the only reason the lynch went through.

For reference, the final votecount:

This is why you looked bad, and it's why you were in the square POE following the flip.

There's also a 50% chance I am cleared Town, I should never be the lynch today for that reason alone. But take a look at all of my game solving interactions this game. I'm as spewed V as they game. Not to mention, I just volunteered Villager when scum would NEED to claim bulletproof here to win to assume the vertical and fuck up our gamed plan.

Please excuse my absence; I was called into work shortly before the deadline yesterday (woo early mornings) and stayed busy most of yesterday.

Final Vote Count - Day 1

literallypam (5):

Reubus Swagrid, Drixx, notachipmunk, PantherPunt, FrogSC2

FrogSC2 (2):

kirroha, Rufus Delorian

Drixx (1):

literallypam

Rufus Delorian (1):

kagesong

No Vote (0)

literallypam,

Mafia Goon

, has been lynched!

It is now Night 1. The deadline is Friday, March 11, at 8:00 AM CST, which is in (expired on 2016-03-11 08:00:00).

Edit: Night won't end until I get a replacement for kirroha.

[FrogSC2]

Rufus, make a list in order of who is most scummy to most villagery, in EXACT order please.

This should be the basis for bulletproof claims.

[FrogSC2]

If PhantomCobalt or Kagesong claim bulletproof, I will GLADLY volunteer to be today's mislynch as long as they're both lynched after me.

[FrogSC2]

Based on Notachipmunk voting Pam, I'd switch 2 and 3.

Even so, we have to decide if we WANT to do this plan in the first place.

[FrogSC2]

I'll tell you the main obvious risk.

If I'm actually a roleblocker (I'm not)

I would have concoted this plan as a way to out the real bulletproof.

The other risk remains the same.

If the real bulletproof claims before the mafia is forced to claim, then we're *kind of* fucked.

The final risk is if we are on the horizontal:

And we force the Mafia to claim bulletproof, then the mafia will get a free ride.

This plan really only works if:
1) You believe I'm not the roleblocker
2) The mafia claims bulletproof first if we're in the vertical
3) We're not on the horizontal - because if this is the case, only one bulletproof will claim (the mafia roleblocker)

========

The result should ALWAYS be that I am not cleared, because we must expect 1 bulletproof claim

It's just a 50/50 if we'll have 2 claims or not

[FrogSC2]

If we're on the vertical, the mafia will know that the bulletproof should claim, so there's no incentive for the mafia to claim bulletproof if he KNOWS he/she is on the vertical.

That's a huge drawback from this plan. :-/

I don't know if this is even a good idea anymore to be honest.

Plenty of time to discuss.

[FrogSC2]

Kage, there is no way I am today's lynch.

If Rufus is fakeclaiming, it's GG.

If Rufus is true claiming, then it's PhantomCobalt and you in the square POE. With PhantomCobalt first.

[FrogSC2]

The risk - the real bulletproof claims before the mafia can.

In this situation, mafia no longer has an incentive to claim, and the trap is dead.

That's why I ordered the POE of claims.

Does anyone want to reorder to Claims list?

Except, to avoid this, all the mafia has to do is NOT CLAIM no matter what. Fails.

This isn't true at all.

If we're on the horizontal axis, Mafia must claim or we go with the roleblocking claiming plan, players including myself will be mechanically cleared, and then it's GG.

In either scenario, you and PhantomCobalt will be the first to be lynched.

[FrogSC2]

Kage, there is no way I am today's lynch.

If Rufus is fakeclaiming, it's GG.

If Rufus is true claiming, then it's PhantomCobalt and you in the square POE. With PhantomCobalt first.

Didn't you yourself clear me as town? Why would I be in your PoE all of a sudden.

I cleared you based on tone reads.

Based on mechanical criteria, you're up there in the POE

[FrogSC2]

Let me point out that Frog seemed very anti Pam lynch, trying to make everyone else look at other people. Now, D2, Pam is confirmed dead scum. Frog is clearly changing his attitude, claiming that he was on the Pam train all the time. I am now not clear town in his mind and everything he says is tailored to remove any attention from himself. If we follow his PoE, then he gets to skate in the background. So lynch him or Rufus, worst case, win tomorrow.

Seriously, ISO my posts.

1) I hammer Pam

2) I always supported the Pam lynch

3) I was opening up the field so that after we lynched Pam (who would hopefully flip scum), we'd know what to do later

By shifting the field in different directions, we got more opinions from different players on other players, or lack of opinions.

It also gave hope that the Pam lynch may not happen to whoever the scum teammate was (making them more mechanically obvious if/when they didn't vote for Pam).

I've done a whole lot more to the game over D1 and D2 revolving strategies and play than the vast majority.

Couple this with I am potentially a hard cleared (currently soft cleared) mechanical villager via Rufus' claim he jailkeeped me, and I am NEVER a lynch today, and you and PhantomCobalt are ALWAYS lynches ahead of me, unless either of you counter claim Rufus OR claim bulletproof.

[FrogSC2]

So here's what I think is going to happen.

1) TPR counter claims and Rufus hangs. GG, Town wins.

2) No one counter claims, Rufus is able to clear 1 more person.

Considering we're at 7 players, that limits the POE to 5 players.

Rufus and (assume myself) whoever he roleblocked will die tonight and tomorrow night.

We will be able to narrow down the POE to:
7 players alive, 5 in the POE - D2
5 players alive, 4 in the POE - D3
3 players alive, 3 in the POE - D4 (MYLO)

All we have to do is Town block 2 players in the POE and it should be GG.

AKA, we need a strong POE of 3 players today, assuming Rufus IS the real Town Power Role.

Living players:
Drixx, FrogSC2, kagesong, notachipmunk, PhantomCobalt, Reubus Swagrid, Rufus Delorian

Assuming both Rufus and myself are cleared, players in the POE:
Drixx, kagesong, notachipmunk, PhantomCobalt, Reubus Swagrid

I very much want to make notachipmunk a Town Block member.

Considering Reubus' push on Rufus after the Panther flip, I find this push SOMEWHAT logical for both a villager and a wolf, so I cannot put Reubus as a clear DESPITE the early push on Pam.

Same goes for Drixx, his lines avoided contact with almost everyone else other than zeroing in on Pam (and pushback on me for wanting more lines from him).

I'm HOPING Rufus isn't the real TPR and we can end this in a perfect sweep today, and the real TPR will come forward.

*Note*

If you are the REAL Town Power Role, you need to counter claim Rufus now.

ffs man, I hit scum so early in the game. It was the first proper case (the one against Drixx was pretty bad) the game had seen. This sounds like WIFOM but why the hell would I, as scum jump on my partner at post 47? And the Rufus after pam was so damn obvious from my posting that it hurts my eyes. He gave terrible reasons as to why pam was town. I claim VT. Why would I screw over my partner so hard (and quite unnecessarily so) if I were scum? This makes no sense. I really should be cleared so we can move onto other possibilities. This is the second time you've tried to underpin my involvement in the lynching of pam. It's as if you're trying to reduce all the towncred I've accumulated. At least I'm last in your POE

You expect me to say "Psssh, yeah Reubus is 100% Town".

I can't do that because I don't know this.

If you look at my POE, you aren't even on it. You're at the VERY bottom next to Drixx.

I like to explore every option from every perspective. Especially with such a long and drawn out game.

[FrogSC2]

Oh yeah, @Reubus, unless you're counterclaiming Rufus, please take your vote off of him.

[FrogSC2]

ffs man, I hit scum so early in the game. It was the first proper case (the one against Drixx was pretty bad) the game had seen. This sounds like WIFOM but why the hell would I, as scum jump on my partner at post 47? And the Rufus after pam was so damn obvious from my posting that it hurts my eyes. He gave terrible reasons as to why pam was town. I claim VT. Why would I screw over my partner so hard (and quite unnecessarily so) if I were scum? This makes no sense. I really should be cleared so we can move onto other possibilities. This is the second time you've tried to underpin my involvement in the lynching of pam. It's as if you're trying to reduce all the towncred I've accumulated. At least I'm last in your POE

He's specifically trying to mechanically destroy town credit for anyone but himself. Rufus was my #1 scum after Pam. But the obvious misdirection that Frog is giving makes it quite clear. Choo Choo

VOTE: FrogSC

kagesong

You're either purposefully misunderstand, or unable to understand me. Both of the cases are sad, but at least one involves you being the actual scum.

I AM NEVER BEING VOTED TODAY EVER, IN ANY WORLDS.

1) Rufus HARD CLAIMED jailkeeper believeably, and backed it up again today with his action on me. Unless someone counter claims, Rufus is hard town cleared, and I am soft town cleared.

2) The only reason the Pam lynch went through was because of my vote. Guess who wasn't on the Pam vote by the mods count. PhantomCobalt and you. You 2 will ALWAYS be lynches ahead of me because of this alone.

3) Look at my gamesolving and interaction. Where has any other player's level of interaction been?

----

I realize this is anewbie game, but I kind of expected more the more experienced players.

I've played with Phantom before, and even though he's on the square POE hopefully he can talk sense into you guys.

[FrogSC2]

Kage. I say we lynch Rufus today and Frog tomorrow if Rufus doesn't flip scum. Can you work with me here??

Fuck it.

I'm pretty much done with this site.

I'm a nillager. Good luck.

I'll check in sometime and not interact with any, not strategize, etc.

Great game guys.

[FrogSC2]

I'm so tempted to self vote and peace

[FrogSC2]

kagesong, you honestly believe I'm scum over everyone else?

[FrogSC2]

Rufus - who mechanically hard cleared me, is still voting me. What in the... *mind is blown*

Ruebus - is still voting the ONLY uncounterclaimed Town Power Role (Rufus) - what in the mother flipper? And wants to put me next on the lynch because... as a soft/hard cleared Town I'm exploring every option? Because I'm interacting and opening up interaction with every player? Seriously, shame on you if you're town.

Drixx - refuses to even acknowledge bussing/distancing as a strategy. Refuses to engage with players on any discussion that isn't directly targetted. If you want to vote me Drixx, I'll gladly self-vote and leave you to it.

[FrogSC2]

@ Reubus Let's wait and see what a few others think. As I said, in my POE it's one tonight, the other tomorrow, we win. Of course, if neither flip scum, I would easily become D4 lynch. OR lynch me tonight. I flip town. Lynch Frog tomorrow. There ya go. No matter what town wins.

If I'm on anyone's POE at ANY POINT, I'd like to hear why I'm not Town. Not why I'm scum- why I'm not Town. If you can verbalize it, I'll self vote today.

[FrogSC2]

kagesong, you honestly believe I'm scum over everyone else?

Not necessarily. Rufus could be scum claiming jk and having jailed you in a game with no jk whatsoever so no counter could be made, then using jailing you to cover up his night kill. Since he is "confirmed jailor" no one would suspect him. And since he "jailed" you it soft clears you, so you point at everyone but him which keeps him from being lynched. Scum wins. BUT, that would seem very advanced from a newbie.

....

I've been repeating constantly...

If anyone is a town power role other than bulletproof (which is a seperate claiming strategy), claim NOW and we lynch Rufus for a GG.

Otherwise, Rufus is a confirmed Town.

I feel like when I press send, my messages enter dead space.

[FrogSC2]

kagesong, you honestly believe I'm scum over everyone else?

Not necessarily. Rufus could be scum claiming jk and having jailed you in a game with no jk whatsoever so no counter could be made, then using jailing you to cover up his night kill. Since he is "confirmed jailor" no one would suspect him. And since he "jailed" you it soft clears you, so you point at everyone but him which keeps him from being lynched. Scum wins. BUT, that would seem very advanced from a newbie.

....

I've been repeating constantly...

If anyone is a town power role other than bulletproof (which is a seperate claiming strategy), claim NOW and we lynch Rufus for a GG.

Otherwise, Rufus is a confirmed Town.

I feel like when I press send, my messages enter dead space.

Sadly, one must consider the low level of activity in this game, this alone would make it believable that the cop or etc. would be to claim.

Explain this thought process again please?

You believe since the activity level is low, therefore there must a cop instead of a jailkeeper who isn't claiming?

You make some pretty nuts logical leaps out of nowhere.

Again, point out where any of my play was considered NOT TOWN.

[FrogSC2]

kagesong, you honestly believe I'm scum over everyone else?

Not necessarily. Rufus could be scum claiming jk and having jailed you in a game with no jk whatsoever so no counter could be made, then using jailing you to cover up his night kill. Since he is "confirmed jailor" no one would suspect him. And since he "jailed" you it soft clears you, so you point at everyone but him which keeps him from being lynched. Scum wins. BUT, that would seem very advanced from a newbie.

....

I've been repeating constantly...

If anyone is a town power role other than bulletproof (which is a seperate claiming strategy), claim NOW and we lynch Rufus for a GG.

Otherwise, Rufus is a confirmed Town.

I feel like when I press send, my messages enter dead space.

Quite frankly, because you're coming off as a try-hard. You're tactics seem to change with the wind as if you're trying to keep up. There is no way I can say not town. You've been careful. Maybe you are town. But I find good reason to put you at 65% scum. Where as Rufus is 100% dependant on role-claim. And Phantom hasn't given enough data. I see Reubus and Drixx as pretty well cleared townie.

I've given reasons why other players are not acting Town.

I'd like you to give me reasons why I'm not town.

So far your entire logic is:
1) I put a lot of effort into the game - this is not alignment indicative
2) I strategize - This is a town tell for being 'game solvey' - FFS, I developed a potential gamebreaking strategy today
3) I'm careful? - This isn't true at all. Look at my posting style. It's immidiately what I think. My thoughts are part of the shared pool of knowledge.
4) You mention Phantom, Reubus, and Drixx, as being MORE town than me?
Phantom - was Kirroha, who didn't even comment on Pam and didn't answer anny questions
Reubus - pushed the only uncounterclaimed Town Power Role claim today with a vote (this is NOT town)
Drixx - has no engaged with other players' motivations to establish a pam beyond the Pam lynch (this is not necessarily NOT town, it could just be lazy town)

I've made very clear opinions on all of these players WITH REASONS. YOU HAVE YET TO EXPLAIN YOUR REASONS. 0_o

And this is a communication game FFS.

[FrogSC2]

Anyway I see your point.

Forget that I hammered Pam entirely. Forget it. Getting the Pam lynch yesterday was scummy as fuck.

Forget that I've been pushing for more engagement from other players. Lurking is pro-town anyway.

Forget that I'm pushing against voting Rufus who would be next in the POE. We should probably lynch that uncounterclaimed jailkeeper anyway. I'm so scum for defending him again Reubus + you lot still scum reading him because logic and all. Logic is scummy.

That whole POE thing I did D1, shouldn't have done that. It clearly helps scum when we identify scum potential and lynch in that group no matter what.

That whole strategy about guaranteeing a Town win 100% of the time I developed D2- That was so scummy. Obviously scum love losing, which is why I developed such a plan as scum, so I could lose.

Even though I'm mechanically cleared after I was jailkept last night and a kill went through - clearly there must be some sort of error and I'm the scum. You shouldn't at minimum soft clear me as town. That should make me hard scum if anything!

-_-

Seriously, I'm never, ever, ever a vote.

And if anyone can verbalize how in any world I would ever be lynched, I'd love to hear it, I'll gladly self-hammer and just peace.

[FrogSC2]

Something to think about.

If I were scum, I would have NEVER killed Panther. We mindmeld easily. I would have pocketed a strong voice.

[FrogSC2]

I'm most likely never coming back to this site after my mislynch.

[FrogSC2]

I really don't like frogs flailing
VOTE: frog

You just put me at L-1.

Should I self hammer? Quick poll in the next hour.

[FrogSC2]

Something to think about.

If I were scum, I would have NEVER killed Panther. We mindmeld easily. I would have pocketed a strong voice.

This part actually makes less sense to me than the rest of what you've said =p
If the two of you mindmeld wouldn't you want him gone if you were scum because he would figure you out?
Though he did not seem suspicious of you from what he did post.

Because I'd pocket a like-minded player and lead play if I were scum.

[FrogSC2]

Anyway I see your point.

Forget that I hammered Pam entirely. Forget it. Getting the Pam lynch yesterday was scummy as fuck.

Forget that I've been pushing for more engagement from other players. Lurking is pro-town anyway.

Forget that I'm pushing against voting Rufus who would be next in the POE. We should probably lynch that uncounterclaimed jailkeeper anyway. I'm so scum for defending him again Reubus + you lot still scum reading him because logic and all. Logic is scummy.

That whole POE thing I did D1, shouldn't have done that. It clearly helps scum when we identify scum potential and lynch in that group no matter what.

That whole strategy about guaranteeing a Town win 100% of the time I developed D2- That was so scummy. Obviously scum love losing, which is why I developed such a plan as scum, so I could lose.

Even though I'm mechanically cleared after I was jailkept last night and a kill went through - clearly there must be some sort of error and I'm the scum. You shouldn't at minimum soft clear me as town. That should make me hard scum if anything!

-_-

Seriously, I'm never, ever, ever a vote.

And if anyone can verbalize how in any world I would ever be lynched, I'd love to hear it, I'll gladly self-hammer and just peace.

literally, my reason is that you're pushing SO hard to prove that you could NEVER be voted for POE when any one else could, even if there cleared town, just for the sake of getting reactions. The fact that you COMPLETELY try to force people to believe that there is ZERO reason that you could be involved in POE is SUPER scummy. I've already pointed out several POEs that involve you as a vote, town or not. The main one being. THERE IS NO JK or Rufus is otherwise lying. Let's keep in mind YOU COUNTERCLAIMED. Taking that back now? SUPER SCUMMY. I can't see town false claiming a counter. It makes no sense.

Your play is bad. Take a deep breath and reread my logical arguments.

[FrogSC2]

Something to think about.

If I were scum, I would have NEVER killed Panther. We mindmeld easily. I would have pocketed a strong voice.

But I totally would have just led the charge and refused to take the gift wrapped opportunity you offered me to go elsewhere with the lynch and bused my partner on day one, right? (That is what you suggested earlier this day phase... just applying your own logic to you).

You still aren't even acknowledging the strategy of bussing to the actual newbies. I don't like your play. If you're town, I really don't like your play.

Roleblocker exists 50% of the time when a Jailkeeper does. Roleblock resolves before Jailkeeper. On this site final scum are generally allowed to use both their ability and factional kill.

Therefore you are not logically cleared, FrogSC2. Making derisive statements about how terrible everyone else is and how stupid we are and how you're leaving the site because we're too stupid to realize you are cleared ... when you are actually

not

logically cleared. That just makes you look like you're having a tantrum: especially when you're swearing you're town while at the same time talking about self voting.

Drixx. Your play is terrible. Your play is stupid. I'm not calling you stupid. That would be in poor sport. Although your tacked on accusations are well noted, but unsubstantiated.

The only thing you decided to talk about was how I'm not hard cleared? I agreed. Which is why I said I'm soft cleared.

Your limited engagement and topics is boresome and your tunnel vision does not mesh well with me. Feel free to mislynch me, if you're town, take a look in the mirror and reconsider your playstyle.

[FrogSC2]

I'll say Frog does seem a bit scummy to me.

However, if we don't have a bulletproof townie, he

is

cleared. I jailed him & there was still a NK.

I claimed Jailkeeper D1, if I was lying, there'd be another Jailkeeper, a Doctor, a Tracker, or a Cop, they'd have claimed, revealed me as scum and won the game.

Pretty sure everyone's posted since then & would have had the whole night to work out the easy way to win.

Other than Frog, only person I could be suspicious of is PhantomCobalt, just because everyone else seems towny to me and Phantom & Kirroha haven't said much

I'm literally the only one pointing out how you're a cleared Town. And yet somehow you still have votes? WTF? And I still have your vote??? Waaaat? And there's a world where I'm hard cleared BY you???? And I'm still the preferred lynch today?

Yeah, this play is literally killing me. (*Dies*)

[FrogSC2]

Anyway, feel free to hammer at any point. I'm the most obvious villager bar none.

If it brings you joy to mislynch me instead of solving the game, whatever makes you happy.

This site is really weird.

[FrogSC2]

First: you shouldn't self-vote no matter what. It isn't playing to your win condition no matter your alignment at this point.

Second: you probably shouldn't judge the value of this site based upon one game on the Road to Rome. There's a wide variety of game types available, and I suspect it won't take you long to find people who prefer to play as you do. Wherever you come from (you haven't said, that I recall) seems to have a very mechanical approach. It's almost like a hill building algorithm the way you approach the game. And there's nothing wrong with that. Assuming that no BP comes forward, you are mechanically cleared and you've outlined a series of steps that leads to a town auto win condition. That's a fairly sound methodology.

Third: you should stick around just to learn about the equally sound and effective methods that you don't seem to currently view as valid or sound. In my time here I've seen all sorts of things which I initially viewed with disdain and skepticism work consistently. There's more to this game than just the mechanical bits. Some people have become really good at that "more".


P-Edit: So here I am extending an olive branch and I get called terrible and stupid and boring. Never mind that I found and ensured scum lynch on day one. My play is stupid and terrible and boring. *sigh* - Variety is the spice of life my friend. We're not all the same. That's a good thing.

I'm raging Drixx. Thanks for calming me down. I'm having a hard time acclimating.

[FrogSC2]

I thought it was against the rules to mention other sites?

[FrogSC2]

I thought it was against the rules to mention other sites?

I'm assuming it's not then

I've played for years over on SC2Mafia, and now I'm pretty settled in over at MU.

I wanted to give this site, PerC, and 2+2 a shot since I know plenty of players around.

[FrogSC2]

I doubt you're going to get quickhammered, PhantomCobalt's the only other person I think could be scum and he's already voted for you.

You're right though, you're 50% hard cleared from my POV, would be a bit rushed if you get lynched now.

UNVOTE:

Praise the mafia gods!

[FrogSC2]

VOTE COUNT:

Frog (L-2): This is the scummiest composition of a train, lol, and coincidentally my top 2 for POE

Kagesong, PhantomCobalt

Rufus (L-3): This vote makes no sense because no one has counterclaimed Rufus on a Town Power Role, makes Reubus look derp

Reubus

PhantomCobalt (L-3): This player did not vote Pam, comment on literally anything for 2 days (including the sub), and puts me at L-1 without contribution. He's in the square POE, top of the list, followed by Kagesong.

Frog

[FrogSC2]

@Rufus

Can I please convince you to join me on PhantomCobalt?

[FrogSC2]

Alternatively, lynch me today but then lynch:

PhantomCobalt
Kagesong

In that order.

It's much riskier going that way, and imo illogical lynching me first considering partial clear. But w.e. makes you guys happy.

[FrogSC2]

With no 1-shot BP claimed, FrogSC2 is conftown. Without any Cop/Doctor/Tracker claim, then Rufus is confirmed to be telling the truth about being Jailkeeper. That's two conftown. We should let the remaining scum kill them. Foolish to do scum's job for them.

I think my suspect order goes something like this:

PhantomCobalt
Reubus Swagrid
Kagesong


Not sure where I should put notachipmunk. Reubus and Kage could swap places... I can't decide which is 2nd most suspicious to me.

I think notachipmunk's range of interaction + pam support vote when it wasn't really necessary for scum is pretty villagery.

I think you figured out the same mech thing as I did based on players votes and responses to the BP strategy.

We can completely game the system now, which is kind of boring, but superior.

Just requires Rufus to claim who he's going to roleblock to have them cleared tomorrow.

IMO, Rufus roleblock kagesong on the POE, so even if Mafia don't attack on purpose we still lynch within the POE.

Good news is I'm hard cleared now. Greater news is the POE should certainly start with the 2 currently voting me.

[FrogSC2]

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

What the hell, a bit of voting might inspire some more talk from the elusive Phantom. Not announcing L-1 was kinda poor form too.

Pretty certain the scum exists out of PhantomCobalt or Kagesong.

We can mechanically deduce there is no bulletproof claim, based on votes and interactions, which means we can go through with the plan. Which is kind of hilarious Mafia didn't claim.

[FrogSC2]

Sounds reasonable, Kagesong did accuse Literallypam pretty early on though...could be WIFOMy I suppose.

@Drixx, you put Reubus pretty high on your suspect list, can you elaborate? I had you and Reubus cleared for the same reason.

I'm going to assume it has to do with:

A) Voting you today

B) Recognizing that there are no counterclaims to your TPR claim and keeping vote planted anyway

C) Recognizing the potential of D1 bussing a partner who would be inevitably lynched anyway

Certainly Reubus has town cred for:

A) Voting Pam (lead)

B) Range of interactions

[FrogSC2]

I don't think Reubus gets credit for putting the first vote on Pam in RVS. Scum often vote their partner in RVS. Once the wagon was up, he may have never seen a good chance to get off.

I'm glad you brought this up.

I wanted to mention this yesterday but felt it wasn't the right time and/or it would have gone over everyone's heads.

Kind of like when I mentioned bussing/distancing today.

In my process I like to consider EVERY possible scenario, even the zebra hooves, but always play into whatever is the most obvious. E.G. SHCs are saved for MYLO, etc.

I just recently started trimming it down into:

What actions has Player A done that are not villagery?

Instead of:

What actions has Player B done that could be wolfy?

[FrogSC2]

That was my first thought, but if Frog's a Roleblocker, there has to be a Bulletproof Townie in the mix.

If there is a Bulletproof guy, not claiming is causing possible scum to be totally cleared, I think we went over this pretty well earlier so, since no-one's claimed Bulletproof, we're working on the assumption that there's no Roleblocker.

Unless of course there's a lack of attention being paid. BUT VOTE: Phantom

Let's see where this takes us

I believe Phantom is now at L-1 I don't know how to bold

Exactly, the lack of attention will ultimately doom scum now.

At this point, all Rufus has to do is roleblock you tonight.

If no one dies, then we lynch you.

If Rufus dies, then we can clear you unless someone claims to be a bulletproof (including you).

So far none of the following are candidates for bulletproof anymore:
Rufus
Drixx
Frog
Notachipmunk
Kagesong
Reubus
========

PhantomCobalt, if scum, will be forced to claim bulletproof even if he is Mafia, or we have a gamed strategy that will result in a 100% town victory no matter what, aka he'll lose.

This Phantom flip is most likely the GG, since no one else claimed, or can reasonably claim BP now.

[FrogSC2]

I'll walk through it again with assumptions:

Rufus - roleblocker
Frog - cleared
rest vanilla townies or wolf

Today:
Lynch: PhantomCobalt

Tonight:
Rufus - roleblocks you - either no kills (we lynch you) or kill (you are cleared)
Kagesong - is roleblocked - either Rufus dies (you and I are cleared), or no one dies (we lynch you)

If There is a D3 (assume Rufus is killed):
Kagesong - cleared
Frog - cleared
Notachipmunk - voted Pam, soft clear
Drixx - voted Pam, soft clear
Reubus - voted Pam, soft clear

We can afford 1 mislynch, we must create a POE of 2 people out of the 3. I'm saying Notachipmunk should be the POE clear.

Our POE will be:
Reubus - Lynch D3
Drixx - Lynch D4

As long as notachipmunk is town, we will always win

===========

Some variables:
Who we put in our POE
We COULD trade out Drixx with Notachipmunk, but I disagree with this.

If Rufus is NOT killed, and Kagesong IS a villager:
Then Rufus simply announces he will roleblock Reubus. If Rufus dies, we clear Reubus and I'm still cleared as well. If Rufus survives, we lynch Reubus.
Mafia will NEVER NOT kill Rufus tonight if they have the opportunity to do so. Because not killing Rufus will completely close the POE to unknowns including Notachipmunk.

[FrogSC2]

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

What the hell, a bit of voting might inspire some more talk from the elusive Phantom. Not announcing L-1 was kinda poor form too.

Pretty certain the scum exists out of PhantomCobalt or Kagesong.

We can mechanically deduce there is no bulletproof claim, based on votes and interactions, which means we can go through with the plan. Which is kind of hilarious Mafia didn't claim.

I think I'm dead. GG!

GG Phantom. You still play on MU?

[FrogSC2]

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

What the hell, a bit of voting might inspire some more talk from the elusive Phantom. Not announcing L-1 was kinda poor form too.

Pretty certain the scum exists out of PhantomCobalt or Kagesong.

We can mechanically deduce there is no bulletproof claim, based on votes and interactions, which means we can go through with the plan. Which is kind of hilarious Mafia didn't claim.

I think I'm dead. GG!

I mean, you could still claim to be the bulletproof, which throws the roleblocker in the mix. Hope never to get roleblocked by Rufus as being a 'clear'.

[FrogSC2]

But the follow up plan was always to have Rufus roleblock the bulletproof claim... so yeah, you're in a hard place.

[FrogSC2]

Anyway. GG all. Sorry for being such a dick.

[FrogSC2]

Why would I claim BP just to keep myself alive. That will just out the real one

So you are the roleblocker?

[FrogSC2]

Wait... are you Cobalt from MU?

[FrogSC2]

Idk what mu is

I'm VT

Nevermind. Thought I played with you in that Jessica Jones game offsite back at the end of November.

[FrogSC2]

Also, this is very awkward.

PhantomCobalt!Scum would have been forced to claim bulletproof in this scenario.

UNVOTE:

I think we need to lynch kagesong today instead, even though PhantomCobalt would have made more sense.

[FrogSC2]

Meh, I still want to lynch PhantomCobalt anyway.

The way he said "the REAL BP" made me feel like he's not uninformed, rather he is informed, and wants us to wait until we wagon someone who claims BP for him.

Placing imaginary vote on PhantomCobalt so we don't hammer too soon and everyone can check in.

Also want to confirm with Rufus that he'll roleblock Kagesong tonight before any hammers.

[FrogSC2]

Also, this is very awkward.

PhantomCobalt!Scum would have been forced to claim bulletproof in this scenario.

UNVOTE:

I think we need to lynch kagesong today instead, even though PhantomCobalt would have made more sense.

PC pretty much subbed in and didn't really get much of a chance to say anything and suddenly he was at L-1 and D2 has hardly started: because of this I don't think that if he were scum he would necessarily fakeclaim bulletproof. He doesn't have as much vested in the game as the rest since he kinda just showed up into a bad situation. Idk if you think he definitely would or just wanted to pressure him to get some words out. There is time yet in D2 to change things up but you switched gears rather quickly on your lynch target. Half the time I'm not sure whether you are legit trying to get people answering things or causing mass confusion -or if not mass confusion then definitely chipmunk confusion-

Lol, I'm legit confused most of the time examining of every option.

At the end of the day, I'd like to stand by my POE.

[FrogSC2]

So what does that change?

Drixx and Reubus interactions?! OMG!

[FrogSC2]

Wait frog are you clearing Phantom?

Nah, I'm hesitant based on his not claiming BP in his L-1.

I have my invisible vote there so he's not actually at L-1, but my invisible vote is for Phantom

[FrogSC2]

Again, if Wolves want to avoid a gamed strategy, they're kind of forced to claim bulletproof when they're at L-1

[FrogSC2]

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

What the hell, a bit of voting might inspire some more talk from the elusive Phantom. Not announcing L-1 was kinda poor form too.

Pretty certain the scum exists out of PhantomCobalt or Kagesong.

We can mechanically deduce there is no bulletproof claim, based on votes and interactions, which means we can go through with the plan. Which is kind of hilarious Mafia didn't claim.

I think I'm dead. GG!

When I saw this, I thought it was a concession.

The claiming VT afterwards threw me.

[FrogSC2]

Again, if Wolves want to avoid a gamed strategy, they're kind of forced to claim bulletproof when they're at L-1

No?

Unless the wolf is Notachipmunk, then according to our planned strategy, we will mechanically clear and lynch everyone outside of the Town Block using Rufus' confirmed uncontested roleblock.

The only way for a wolf to get out of that is:
1) Be Notachipmunk
or
2) Claim bulletproof - this disallows players from being cleared (including myself and at least one other person tonight after Rufus roleblocks them) because of the potential existence of a mafia roleblocker on the vertical

I believe the second option to be the inevitable outcome, but I was wrong, no one claimed! And no one can reasonable claim it now! Such lols!

Since no one has claimed to be the bulletproof, this means:
1) Either the wolves haven't figured this out yet and it's too late for anyone to convincingly claim bulletproof at this point.
or
2) The wolf is Notachipmunk

I believe it's option #1 based on Notachipmunk voting Pam yesterday + interactions D1

[FrogSC2]

They can claim either VT or BP to no detriment. If there is a real BP and (assuming Phantom is scum) Phantom claims BP, he's totally fucked either today or tomorrow. If there is no BP in the setup it would be safe to do so. Right now remaining scum can either feign that this is setup A or 1 with no consequence by claiming VT. Scum could also claim BP if there is no BP (for they would know if they were a role blocker or not) or simply claim VT. Or Phantom is really VT and Rufus fake claimed. His VT claim therefore doesn't do much for me.

1) You said youself previous, there were no counterclaims to Rufus, therefore Rufus must be real claiming.

Sub notes - I believe Rufus' absurd D1 claiming

2) Simply claiming VT in the horizontal function would merit a strategized lock game for the scum. Which is lol.

3) Simply claiming VT in the vertical function,knowing there is a BP, waiting for the BP to claim, is a smart move. Continue to roleblock Rufus and kill whomever he desires. OOOOH I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN NOW RUFUS.

If we're in the vertical, scum won't be forced into a claim battle with the real BP. That would mean instant death. Pretending we're on the horizontal instead and getting the real BP to claim would be more beneficial for him/her. Let Rufus continue to "clear" more and more people until the wolf is "cleared".

Yeah it's definitely possible, but that would require the Wolf to not be in the TOP 3 POE spots.

ATM, I sincerely believe our TOP 3 POE will close the game out anyway.

[FrogSC2]

Except you're not confirmed town frog

If he's the Mafia Roleblocker, as I suspect, who I choose to jail doesn't matter, it also doesn't matter too much if I die, I'm effectively a VT now.

Ugh.

I'm confirmed town until further notice.

No, if we're in the vertical I don't want any real BPs to claim today.

Let the scum squeal on trial.

[FrogSC2]

Except you're not confirmed town frog

If he's the Mafia Roleblocker, as I suspect, who I choose to jail doesn't matter, it also doesn't matter too much if I die, I'm effectively a VT now.

Ugh.

I'm confirmed town until further notice.

No, if we're in the vertical I don't want any real BPs to claim today.

Let the scum squeal on trial.

Why are you confirmed town until further notice??

Until I'm proven not confirmed, we go through with the gamed plan.

[FrogSC2]

So if there is a BP out there, why should'nt they claim so we can either start or stop clearing town. Starting with you

I'm not so sure anymore to be honest.

I've gone down this rabbit hole pretty far.

What are your thoughts on the matter and why?

[FrogSC2]

So if there is a BP out there, why should'nt they claim so we can either start or stop clearing town. Starting with you

I'm not so sure anymore to be honest.

I've gone down this rabbit hole pretty far.

What are your thoughts on the matter and why?

Because if there is a BP you're not cleared and nobody can be cleared.

Which is exactly why Mafia would be forced into claiming BP if we were on the horizontal vertical, correct?

[FrogSC2]

Reubus, instead of repeating the same answer, I'd like to engage you in your thoughts.

Instead of pointing as a problem that I've already covered and found a solution towards, why don't you suggest your own solution.

Let me follow you down your line of thinking now.

[FrogSC2]

Well I called Literallypam completely wrong...woops.

I'd say Frog definitively claimed Jailkeeper before the night, surely that means the scum is me or him, I'd rather we lynch him first but I can definitely see people wanting me lynched...its a town win even if you do me then Frog so I'm not too bothered about order.

VOTE: FrogSC2

Lmfao. Learn what a decoy is.

And dude, if I didn't push the pam lynch, we'd be in square 1, so just no.

Quoting this for future reference

I think I can see where you're going to take this.

So I'll just save this quote in case I'm dead and anyone needs to look over Reubus' accuracy of *NEW* statements.



Unless it's purely for post-game?

Because for in-game I think decoying is a pretty important strategy to teach new players. I already mentioned it before, but I really don't think Rufus understood the purpose of it until now.

Well I called Literallypam completely wrong...woops.

I'd say Frog definitively claimed Jailkeeper before the night, surely that means the scum is me or him, I'd rather we lynch him first but I can definitely see people wanting me lynched...its a town win even if you do me then Frog so I'm not too bothered about order.

VOTE: FrogSC2

If he claimed falsely he would've been counter claimed by now

[FrogSC2]

If he's the MRB, our Bulletproof guy is screwing us over.

But phantom claimed VT already so we're not losing a BP townie if we lynch him and if he is MRB, game's won.

Unless you keep jailing people and no one dies. Then he could sneak through. Lynch him tonight, if he flips town, lynch me. Then it's a heads up between you and frog.

Kagesong

Walk through that whole scenario.

The premise is Rufus jails and no one dies.

What would the logical next steps be?

Sorry, I don't understand how you ever reach those conclusions from your premise points.

I'm sure I missed something, could you please explain it step by step?

[FrogSC2]

If he's the MRB, our Bulletproof guy is screwing us over.

But phantom claimed VT already so we're not losing a BP townie if we lynch him and if he is MRB, game's won.

Unless you keep jailing people and no one dies. Then he could sneak through. Lynch him tonight, if he flips town, lynch me. Then it's a heads up between you and frog.

Kagesong

Walk through that whole scenario.

The premise is Rufus jails and no one dies.

What would the logical next steps be?

Sorry, I don't understand how you ever reach those conclusions from your premise points.

I'm sure I missed something, could you please explain it step by step?

IF the last scum is roleblocker, for WHATEVER reason no one is claming BP, then they can always block rufus, choose to kill or not kill, either confirming or clearing the person who got "jailed" as they see fit. KEEP IN MIND THAT ROLEBLOCKER RESOLVES FIRST. Yes I know no one has claimed BP, I'm not giving points for doing what people should here, I'm just saying this is a 50% possibility.

@Kagesong

I'm trying my best to ask you a simple question.
Your answers feel very confused and with a purposeful narrative to fit whatever story you want to spin.

Once again:

Walk me through step by step how you get from:

A)Our current scenario of a jailkeeper
To
B) The next 2 lynches are Phantom and Yourself (Kagesong)
To
C) The last POE lynch is between Me (Frog, the clear) and Rufus (The uncontested Jailkeeper)

[FrogSC2]

I don't like that Frog even demanded the bulletproof to claim to begin with. As much as he's coming up with some elaborate plans ultimately I feel like they're in his own self-interest to make himself look town regardless of his alignment. Of course it may all be true and maybe I'm wrong but isn't claiming BP bad as town? That's why I don't like that he pushed so much to even put it out in the open. He was hoping there wouldn't be anyone to claim it so he could be free, whether or not he was, and maybe they don't want to claim or just go with his plan. I mean at this point we're all kinda just jumping on the Frog strat because he accounts for about 1/3 of the total posts and has a lot of stuff laid out and I've been taking a lot of what he says as legit too.
I still don't like his "sheriff jailor" claim - decoy or not I feel like it helped him jump roles freely, especially since I took it as sarcasm at first and then he straight up used it as a role. His delayed pam vote also was shady. I mean if you were gonna vote in the last 2 hours, why do it like 45 min later -_-
Sorry if this is all "old" stuff from D1 but I need to think out loud and don't want to dismiss all of this and potentially get sucked into believing everything.

I appreciate your pure unfiltered thoughts.

I feel as though your thoughts are a bit confused.

Let me help a bit.

Keep one small point for line.

"Of course it may all be true and maybe I'm wrong but isn't claiming BP bad as town?"
Think through the scenarios in which a Town BP would claim, and in which a Mafia BP would claim.
Think through scenarios in which a Mafia would NOT claim BP.

"He was hoping there wouldn't be anyone to claim it so he could be free"
Using your knowledge from the questions you walked through above, explain how the sentence you wrote above makes no sense.

I'll ask that after you walk through everything completely, do not post it yet.
You are not a prime night kill target in the event that the game continues.
Keep your findings ready for copy paste if necessary tomorrow.
Please understand why I'm asking you to keep this to yourself instead of posting it.

[FrogSC2]

If he's the MRB, our Bulletproof guy is screwing us over.

But phantom claimed VT already so we're not losing a BP townie if we lynch him and if he is MRB, game's won.

Unless you keep jailing people and no one dies. Then he could sneak through. Lynch him tonight, if he flips town, lynch me. Then it's a heads up between you and frog.

Kagesong

Walk through that whole scenario.

The premise is Rufus jails and no one dies.

What would the logical next steps be?

Sorry, I don't understand how you ever reach those conclusions from your premise points.

I'm sure I missed something, could you please explain it step by step?

IF the last scum is roleblocker, for WHATEVER reason no one is claming BP, then they can always block rufus, choose to kill or not kill, either confirming or clearing the person who got "jailed" as they see fit. KEEP IN MIND THAT ROLEBLOCKER RESOLVES FIRST. Yes I know no one has claimed BP, I'm not giving points for doing what people should here, I'm just saying this is a 50% possibility.

@Kagesong

I'm trying my best to ask you a simple question.
Your answers feel very confused and with a purposeful narrative to fit whatever story you want to spin.

Once again:

Walk me through step by step how you get from:

A)Our current scenario of a jailkeeper
To
B) The next 2 lynches are Phantom and Yourself (Kagesong)
To
C) The last POE lynch is between Me (Frog, the clear) and Rufus (The uncontested Jailkeeper)

I don't, that would require me to have started from your theory, which would not make sense, as I do not view it as valid. I, however, using my own logic, began at my own point and worked toward my conclusion. To get from A to B you have to start at A. I however, began at C. So, your inquiry is invalid.

If you start at C, it's not an invalid attempt at logic.

But it is the basis for tunnelvision.

Tunnelvision is more than not a bad mentality for town.

[FrogSC2]

I don't like that Frog even demanded the bulletproof to claim to begin with. As much as he's coming up with some elaborate plans ultimately I feel like they're in his own self-interest to make himself look town regardless of his alignment. Of course it may all be true and maybe I'm wrong but isn't claiming BP bad as town? That's why I don't like that he pushed so much to even put it out in the open. He was hoping there wouldn't be anyone to claim it so he could be free, whether or not he was, and maybe they don't want to claim or just go with his plan. I mean at this point we're all kinda just jumping on the Frog strat because he accounts for about 1/3 of the total posts and has a lot of stuff laid out and I've been taking a lot of what he says as legit too.
I still don't like his "sheriff jailor" claim - decoy or not I feel like it helped him jump roles freely, especially since I took it as sarcasm at first and then he straight up used it as a role. His delayed pam vote also was shady. I mean if you were gonna vote in the last 2 hours, why do it like 45 min later -_-
Sorry if this is all "old" stuff from D1 but I need to think out loud and don't want to dismiss all of this and potentially get sucked into believing everything.

I appreciate your pure unfiltered thoughts.

I feel as though your thoughts are a bit confused.

Let me help a bit.

Keep one small point for line.

"Of course it may all be true and maybe I'm wrong but isn't claiming BP bad as town?"
Think through the scenarios in which a Town BP would claim, and in which a Mafia BP would claim.
Think through scenarios in which a Mafia would NOT claim BP.

"He was hoping there wouldn't be anyone to claim it so he could be free"
Using your knowledge from the questions you walked through above, explain how the sentence you wrote above makes no sense.

I'll ask that after you walk through everything completely, do not post it yet.
You are not a prime night kill target in the event that the game continues.
Keep your findings ready for copy paste if necessary tomorrow.
Please understand why I'm asking you to keep this to yourself instead of posting it.

I'm not sure how you expect him to succeed on this homework, Sensai. I mean, you're asking him to prove facts to be true, which are indeed false. What do you want? Gold from iron?

The basis of logic I presented is blatantly objective.

It's not about proving facts, but rather thinking through what would be optimal strategy for BP and Scum in each situation.

If you do this, you can develop a counter optimized strategy.

Instead of starting at:
Player X is scum

And then moving to:
Player X is scummy because

I'm presenting a different (better) approach:
Thinking through optimized strategies for each player type in different scenarios
This is the basis for game theory

I would go so far as to say the question:
Why is player X Scum?
Is inferior to:
Why is player X not Town?
If you decide to pursue that route, ask the latter question instead.

The problem with tunnel vision is this:
"If you hear hooves, don't go looking for Zebras, go hunting for horses"

Kagesong - I mentioned this before, but I think you get lost in WIFOM too easily
This is perhaps an indication of an EN type personality,
WHICH IS NOT BAD
I myself am an ENTP and consider every situation
But apply Occam's Razor to reel yourself in when you're stuck in WIFOM as a Villager

On the other hand, if you are a wolf, inciting confusion and playing into levels or WIFOM is not a bad strategy to be viewed as the "Village Idiot" (Politically Incorrect, but commonly used term)

[FrogSC2]

At this time, I feel VERY confident in presenting my unfiltered views based on my soft/hard clear, even moreso because as a VT, I have nothing to lose.

I'm using this time to help you guys learn new approaches and develop game theory mentalities.

I think Phantom is at L-1 right now.

Bear in mind, if Phantom is NOT the last wolf, I will HEAVILY FOS (Finger of Suspicion) anyone who hammers.

We have the opportunity to discuss quite a lot with this extra time, just as we did yesterday.

We should use this time NOW.

We can develop POE's based on what we have NOW, OR, we could ask players in the POE questions that would expand the content of the game to work off of.

I've already developed IMO a solid POE, which Drixx and Rufus already agreed to (albeit different orders).

Now we can ask those players questions.

For reference:
Our POE (Process of Elimination)
PhantomCobalt
Kagesong
Reubus

Our Town soft clear:
NotaChipmunk

Our Town Clear:
Rufus

[FrogSC2]

Why can't we just lynch that other guy before me cuz I'm town and he's probably not

Impressive contribution.

[FrogSC2]

Why can't we just lynch that other guy before me cuz I'm town and he's probably not

Impressive contribution.

I Really don't like agreeing with Frog's sentiment

here, however, that was A - really scummy of you to say and B - completely useless to you no matter what alignment you are. It gives no meaningful input to the game. Give us a reason he's probably not town, and a reason you are.

Why not?

All you've suggested is point C:
Frog is scum

But you haven't elaborated how you got there;
Points A & B

Spoiler: no thought process

If he's the MRB, our Bulletproof guy is screwing us over.

But phantom claimed VT already so we're not losing a BP townie if we lynch him and if he is MRB, game's won.

Unless you keep jailing people and no one dies. Then he could sneak through. Lynch him tonight, if he flips town, lynch me. Then it's a heads up between you and frog.

Kagesong

Walk through that whole scenario.

The premise is Rufus jails and no one dies.

What would the logical next steps be?

Sorry, I don't understand how you ever reach those conclusions from your premise points.

I'm sure I missed something, could you please explain it step by step?

IF the last scum is roleblocker, for WHATEVER reason no one is claming BP, then they can always block rufus, choose to kill or not kill, either confirming or clearing the person who got "jailed" as they see fit. KEEP IN MIND THAT ROLEBLOCKER RESOLVES FIRST. Yes I know no one has claimed BP, I'm not giving points for doing what people should here, I'm just saying this is a 50% possibility.

@Kagesong

I'm trying my best to ask you a simple question.
Your answers feel very confused and with a purposeful narrative to fit whatever story you want to spin.

Once again:

Walk me through step by step how you get from:

A)Our current scenario of a jailkeeper
To
B) The next 2 lynches are Phantom and Yourself (Kagesong)
To
C) The last POE lynch is between Me (Frog, the clear) and Rufus (The uncontested Jailkeeper)

I don't, that would require me to have started from your theory, which would not make sense, as I do not view it as valid. I, however, using my own logic, began at my own point and worked toward my conclusion. To get from A to B you have to start at A. I however, began at C. So, your inquiry is invalid.

[FrogSC2]

Spoiler: LMAO

Why can't we just lynch that other guy before me cuz I'm town and he's probably not

DOWN WITH THAT OTHER GUY YEAH! errr so which guy is it

I hadn't even considered lynching that other guy...we may have to debate this proposal at great length.

I'll start us off:

If That Other Guy = scum, this is a great proposal.

If That Other Guy = town, this is not a very good proposal.


I'm sure Frog can elaborate in far greater detail.

Phantom is suggesting a vague binary situation, not addressing any particular player or why.

His Logic:
1. It's him or "That Other Guy"
2. "That Other Guy" and Phantom are 'probably' opposite alignments
3. Since Phantom claims VT, Phantom suggests instead "That Other Guy"

We're missing from phantom:
A. The identity of

Spoiler: That Other Guy

Obvious Scapegoat

B. Logic how he reasoned Step 2

[FrogSC2]

Why can't we just lynch that other guy before me cuz I'm town and he's probably not

Impressive contribution.

I Really don't like agreeing with Frog's sentiment

here, however, that was A - really scummy of you to say and B - completely useless to you no matter what alignment you are. It gives no meaningful input to the game. Give us a reason he's probably not town, and a reason you are.

Why not?

All you've suggested is point C:
Frog is scum

But you haven't elaborated how you got there;
Points A & B

Umm, I definitely explained my logic. But, since it's "wrong" you completely ignore the fact that I did so, simply because I used a different procedure than you.

Quote your logical steps please.

I can't find them in your ISO anywhere.

Maybe you forgot to post it?

[FrogSC2]

FYI,

This was your blatant refusal of logic.

If Phantom wasn't derping so much, this would get you auto-lynched.

Quotes below:

Spoiler: no thought process

If he's the MRB, our Bulletproof guy is screwing us over.

But phantom claimed VT already so we're not losing a BP townie if we lynch him and if he is MRB, game's won.

Unless you keep jailing people and no one dies. Then he could sneak through. Lynch him tonight, if he flips town, lynch me. Then it's a heads up between you and frog.

Kagesong

Walk through that whole scenario.

The premise is Rufus jails and no one dies.

What would the logical next steps be?

Sorry, I don't understand how you ever reach those conclusions from your premise points.

I'm sure I missed something, could you please explain it step by step?

IF the last scum is roleblocker, for WHATEVER reason no one is claming BP, then they can always block rufus, choose to kill or not kill, either confirming or clearing the person who got "jailed" as they see fit. KEEP IN MIND THAT ROLEBLOCKER RESOLVES FIRST. Yes I know no one has claimed BP, I'm not giving points for doing what people should here, I'm just saying this is a 50% possibility.

@Kagesong

I'm trying my best to ask you a simple question.
Your answers feel very confused and with a purposeful narrative to fit whatever story you want to spin.

Once again:

Walk me through step by step how you get from:

A)Our current scenario of a jailkeeper
To
B) The next 2 lynches are Phantom and Yourself (Kagesong)
To
C) The last POE lynch is between Me (Frog, the clear) and Rufus (The uncontested Jailkeeper)

I don't, that would require me to have started from your theory, which would not make sense, as I do not view it as valid. I, however, using my own logic, began at my own point and worked toward my conclusion. To get from A to B you have to start at A. I however, began at C. So, your inquiry is invalid.

[FrogSC2]

FYI,

This was your blatant refusal of logic.

If Phantom wasn't derping so much, this would get you auto-lynched.

Quotes below:

Spoiler: no thought process

If he's the MRB, our Bulletproof guy is screwing us over.

But phantom claimed VT already so we're not losing a BP townie if we lynch him and if he is MRB, game's won.

Unless you keep jailing people and no one dies. Then he could sneak through. Lynch him tonight, if he flips town, lynch me. Then it's a heads up between you and frog.

Kagesong

Walk through that whole scenario.

The premise is Rufus jails and no one dies.

What would the logical next steps be?

Sorry, I don't understand how you ever reach those conclusions from your premise points.

I'm sure I missed something, could you please explain it step by step?

IF the last scum is roleblocker, for WHATEVER reason no one is claming BP, then they can always block rufus, choose to kill or not kill, either confirming or clearing the person who got "jailed" as they see fit. KEEP IN MIND THAT ROLEBLOCKER RESOLVES FIRST. Yes I know no one has claimed BP, I'm not giving points for doing what people should here, I'm just saying this is a 50% possibility.

@Kagesong

I'm trying my best to ask you a simple question.
Your answers feel very confused and with a purposeful narrative to fit whatever story you want to spin.

Once again:

Walk me through step by step how you get from:

A)Our current scenario of a jailkeeper
To
B) The next 2 lynches are Phantom and Yourself (Kagesong)
To
C) The last POE lynch is between Me (Frog, the clear) and Rufus (The uncontested Jailkeeper)

I don't, that would require me to have started from your theory, which would not make sense, as I do not view it as valid. I, however, using my own logic, began at my own point and worked toward my conclusion. To get from A to B you have to start at A. I however, began at C. So, your inquiry is invalid.

Apparently you live in a very tiny world where only you are capable of being correct about any kind of logic and your logic is the only truth. OMG you're one of THEM. Here, let's test your theory, since I'm an "auto-lynch" for whatever reason.

VOTE: Kagesong
I guess it really comes down to, I'm sick of reading this arrogance, but I really wanna get a complete game. SO, go ahead, vote me. Then lose when you get lynched tomorrow.

lovely.

VOTE: Phantom Cobalt

[FrogSC2]

L-1

[FrogSC2]

I think Frog has finally talked himself into a loop he can't escape. I am prepared to hammer him or Phantom.

Preferrably Frog, kinda cus I just don't like him.

Pleasantness aside, play to your win condition.

[FrogSC2]

Please don't self vote. I can go into a lengthy explanation of why not if you need.

There are some situations where self-voting is beneficial to your win condition.

But it's inherently against win cons.

Threatening a self-vote is a bit different than actually self-voting.

Frustration is certainly one aspect that leads to improper play of self-voting.

My last standard vanilla 13er (1 cop, rest vanilla) went to Final 3 due to self-voting.

Ultimately, it was a beneficial strategy because the POE was narrowed down between 2 people and the person who self-voted was a Town inside of that POE. (Basically it was a locked game).

Self-voting as scum when you don't consider yourself a serious lynch candidate is a way of playing off of levels/WIFOM and could be a strategy that

could

work to your advantage. But it's

very

situational.

[FrogSC2]

Before the game is over, I should apologize to you all for bearing with me.

If I come off as arrogant, it's because I am.

But voting someone you don't like is significantly different than voting someone you believe is a wolf.

It can certainly be used as a strategy to lynchbait an unlikeable player:
-Build a weak case on an unlikeable player
-Suggest the main reason is because the player in unlikeable
-Wait and see who votes with you and their reasons (If they're equally weak reasons, it's an easy way of spotting a wolf)

Self-lynch bait can be used similarly:
-Wolves want to appear as though they are scum hunting
-By presenting yourself as a weak player/strong target, it allows for wolves to jump onto something easy

Honestly, I've mostly stopped with self-bait and kind of despise that play now, whoever does it.
I've found more likely than not, experienced wolves use self-lynch bait early D1 as a soft clearing method

[FrogSC2]

Yeah, all that great strategy stuff, thanks for making me not seem like a *********** Frog. Of course it's strategy. When I die, Frog gets lynched, town wins. Not at ALL because I'm sick of one person trying to run a game. HONEST.

All good Kagesong.

If it's not a bother, I'd like to /in with you in future games as a hydra account.

I feel like you have the motivation and the personality type for a pure feel reader.

[FrogSC2]

btw - let's take silly bets on whether or not this game is locked with Phantom Cobalt lynch.

I'm at 66% it's locked here.

22% it's kagesong.

11% it's Reubus.

1% it's "That Other Guy"

[FrogSC2]

Which other guy?

It was a joke. (which we all now share)

[FrogSC2]

We kinda already pursued the Frog = Scum line of thinking. Without a Bulletproof Townie, it doesn't work out.

Reubus did the Rufus = Scum line of thinking but without any other power role claim, it doesn't work out.

We're currently on PhantomCobalt = Scum with a hint of Kagesong = scum in the mix.

Drixx, Reubus & Notachipmunk haven't had much suspicion pointed at them but they all voted on a scum lynch D1, if you can think of any reason to suspect one of them more than PhantomCobalt...we've got time I guess.

Personally I'd rather string up PhantomCobalt and be done with it.


Also, I read 'That other guy' as Kagesong.

For everyone who mentioned me as a no show. I had a personal emergency, which included my laptop getting stolen and hours with cops. I honestly thought it was still monday. IF THE MOD WILL HONOR IT my official vote is VOTE: literallypam

If not, I apologize for my absence and hope you all understand.

SO PLEASE QUIT EXCLUDING ME FROM THE PAM VOTE.

To be fair, I hammered the vote, and you voted well after the hammer (i.e. you gain zero Town Equity).

I doubt it will even be an issue. I'm confident this is GG right here.

[FrogSC2]

^ Rufus, you've actually spent the time thinking through it.

So happy right now

[FrogSC2]

VOTE: Phantom

Okay.

Should be GG here.

Just waiting on the mod for the victory post IMO.

Newbie + SE scum team makes sense

[FrogSC2]

Vote Count 2.1

PhantomCobalt (2):

Rufus Delorian, kagesong

FrogSC2 (1):

PhantomCobalt

No Vote (4):

Drixx, FrogSC2, notachipmunk, Reubus Swagrid

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch!

Deadline is Monday, March 28, 2016 at 8:00 AM CDT, which is in (expired on 2016-03-28 08:00:00).

Lol, I think you're right.

It's Rufus + Drixx + Frog + Reubus

...

Oh yeah that's 4 votes

[FrogSC2]

If it is That Other Guy, I'll be so miffed. There is no greater pain than being betrayed by That Other Guy.

...maybe stubbing a toe.

If so that was a super short day, (and potentially a super short game lol)
here's for you Phantom =p

VOTE: That Other Guy

You guys are hilarious.

Spoiler: Let's Start a Mob Against

That Other Guy!

[FrogSC2]

GG all,

@Reubus , I didn't want to give you lock clear because it would set you up as a prime night kill.

I just discovered dead chat... Panther was there for a long time.

"Frog- you can't post that much in games on this site. This is not MU." - Panther

^ Just wait until I break post count records for the 2+2 POG game.

The pace of this game is something I have to get used to.

Just for comparison, in the time I subbed in until now, I've completed 5 other non-turbo games:
1) Cheeeeese - 13 player standard with 1 cop - MU (Win) [Town]
2) Super Smash Bros Mash - 50er mishmash - MU (Win) [Scum]
3) Pirates of the Caribbean - 21er semi-open - MU (Win) [Town]
4) Shots Shots Shots - 9 players shots game - MU (

Loss to Panther you SOAB

) [Town]
5) Firebringers Improvised Game - 9 player upick closed setup - SC2 (Win) [Scum]

[FrogSC2]

^This chipmunk is vicious and helps lynch her scumbuddy day 1, I wouldn't wanna be my own partner lol

FROGGG!!! what did you mean by this post if you happen to remember? As in, what did you want me to figure out, something about a BP claim thingy?(post 551 for reference)

"I'll ask that after you walk through everything completely, do not post it yet.
You are not a prime night kill target in the event that the game continues.
Keep your findings ready for copy paste if necessary tomorrow.
Please understand why I'm asking you to keep this to yourself instead of posting it."

Honestly, the game isn't entirely fresh anymore for me, but it was in reference to a BP claiming and repercussions.

[FrogSC2]

Would anyone like a post-game critique while the game is still fresh in mind?

YES!

@Panther @Frog - be less towny, get killed less.

[FrogSC2]

Drixx - shot you a PM WRT MU champs. Please shoot me a msg back.