Newbie 1717: Newbies Through the Looking Glass (Game Over)

[innocentvillager]

wtf are you guys srs

[innocentvillager]

8 -
Even if it's not his style of play I'd expect an SE to be aware this what start of day can look like.

I am. It doesn't look like this.

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: innocentvillager

I'm reading him as manipulating the pace of the game. At first Meepo made an "are you serious"-post to scoff at the tension. It was clarified twice that people weren't being serious, but Meepo still questioned other peoples motives. Grace admitted again to being loose with her vote. Then IV made a weak post steering discussion in the direction that would make Grace/Accountant/Meepo clash rather than look at someone personally or allow others the opportunity to look at anyone other than those 3. Town IV normally eccentric and aggressive from what I've read in other games (even to the Town's detriment). I'm not seeing any of this right now. Mizzy made a similar post, the third to do so.

Why not Meepo and Mizzy? Not Meepo because he is responding to pressure. That's just the way he chose to respond, and I don't disagree with the response on its own. IV had no meat in his post and I am hungry. Mizzy offered a lot more and seems more in character than IV is.

(RVS with jokes)
Meepo: Are we serious
Grace: no
Accountant: no
Meepo: Sounds pretty serious (the equivalent of "are you sure?")
Accountant: post using this theme to annoy Grace with
Grace: I don't care if it wasn't serious

at this point, it was stated nobody was all that serious 3 times and meepo questioned it twice already

IV: are you guys serious?
Grace: (directed to Accountant) I don't like serious people being serious when we're not being serious
Meepo: (still confused)
Mizzy: Questioning people being serious, making a lot of questions in general
Grace: somehow thinks people are serious now
Meepo: (directed to Mizzy) post about post8 being the joke it obviously is...
Mizzy: really being thrown off by Meepo at this point but I'm reading her post as town
Meepo: I'm not being serious!
Mizzy: repost of last
Meepo: clarifying saying about the same as before
Grace: it didn't seem serious to me

I'm going to be honest I'm phone posting on vacation and haven't really read anything yet that isn't addressed to me, plus I am focused on the other game I am playing at the moment. My first post was in regards to seeing the sheer volume of posts and the fact that people looked like they were already arguing

What do you mean "to the Towns detriment"? It's not like it's my fault people were scum reading me for me doing my style of scum hunting.

[innocentvillager]

Isn't people already arguing a good thing? And how is what you said scumhunting?

Lol I'm referring to his accusation on me that I am often eccentric and aggressive in my town meta, not this game

[innocentvillager]

Yeah but it was just so much so fast and sometimes games like this have a lot of noise that makes it annoying to read. It's foreshadowing that this is going to be an extremely long game, which I don't really like.

I'm like goldilocks and the three bitches. Too much activity and I sit back and skim like a bitch, too little activity and I'll fill the thread with bullshit, otherwise it's just right

[innocentvillager]

Isn't people already arguing a good thing? And how is what you said scumhunting?

Lol I'm referring to his accusation on me that I am often eccentric and aggressive in my town meta, not this game

He was scumreading you for a lack of your usual style of scumhunting, not because that's your usual style of scumhunting. Also, is this an admission that you haven't been scumhunting yet. If so, why not?

You're right I haven't been scum hunting. I'm still cooling off from last game and on vacation so I don't feel like scum hunting atm

[innocentvillager]

People please don`t voice your town reads so obviously just yet, because it will be easier to determine for scum who to kill during the night.

I promise it's important to talk about townreads regardless, as it helps in finding scum by POE.

My initial impressions are a lot of slight townreads. I didn't really get much from the first page or two, other than that Grace is confused as fuck and Mizzy asks a lot of questions and Accountant is playing the classic null IC. The only thing was that Accountant was a bit unnecessarily defensive on the first page, but that wasn't even too bad since it looked like later it was just reaction testing. Fine.

Rereading Lycanfire's entrance post, I've decided he gets some townpoints for this. Newbs who make the effort to meta definitely get some townpoints (I never did it as newbscum, since there was no incentive to and I didn't think that far ahead). I would never scumread myself from an objective perspective, but I can understand his line of reasoning from a meta perspective. Yes, I do tend to be more aggressive as town and am probably more defensive (I'll leave it up to you guys to make that determination), but I'm definitely not anti-town. Also, I haven't played this game in like two years (minus the game other game I'm currently in), so my playstyle might be a bit different.

I still read a scum lean on meepo. maybe I'm stoopid

This bleeds newbtown.

Isn't people already arguing a good thing? And how is what you said scumhunting?

Yeah it's always better to have more activity than none, but there's a lot of noise in this game that is making it annoying to read.

I feel weird and scummish sheeping people but I like a lot of the things Accountant is saying, especially in 78. I have to say, I don't get this:

Okay, Meepo is town. RC, stop playing games and sheep me thanks.

Why. I don't see it.

Focusing on the meta element of my post 46 is negligent at best and scummy at worst. My point was that discussion was being centralized on a group of 3 people already attacking each other over what were nonsensical posts. Hanging back and watching people dig themselves a hole is only town if there's reasons to see someone's reaction. I sure didn't want to see analysis #10 of jokepost because it won't find scum.

Lycan, you seem to be relying a lot on meta. I dunno about IV but I know you've not seen my scum game because I've not seen my scum game. What makes you think this is town aggression and not just me aggression?

I don't. It was closer to what I expected than IV.

Hey Lycan I feel like you're just sitting around and whaling on someone who can't fight back. Any thoughts on active players?

I was hoping to be pushed back by now. IV said he didn't have time to post much, left a low content post that I didn't like. I called it and he spoke about being burnt out and hasn't been helping us any since.

Town
Meepo

Lean Town
Accountant (IC)
Simoyd
RadiantCowbells (SE)

Null
Mizzytastic
Grace
Pants98 (SE)

Lean Scum

Scum
innocentvillager (SE)

Meepo screams town to me, whereas yourself and Simoyd have been contributing positively. I'm having trouble reading RC, but I'm reading a lot of 'noise' from Mizzy and Grace in general that my scumdar isn't feeling very well calibrated right now-I think she's more town than the others but if I didn't know that RC was a Titus alt I'd be guessing a Not_Mafia alt (say little, accuse lots). Mizzy went from "you're usually aggressive so what's the problem" post#51 to "[Lycanfire] you're relying a lot on meta" post#82 after your post#78. My original problem with the direction of the game withstanding I'm reconsidering my read. I don't hate or like her.

Grace is interesting. Nearly all of her posts contain a personal element to them. I don't think this is newbtown or newbscum in itself. It's noise and it's complicating my ability to read her until something more solid comes from her.

Pants hasn't posted. I can't get anything besides null from them.

I actually don't like Lycan's post here, even if I thought his first one fine. It's firstly noteworthy that he has done this "extensive meta research" on me, but doesn't say anything about my scum meta. If I meta someone, I want to make sure I look at both alignments and cross compare them, and I think any townie metaing would want to do that. Too many town games and not enough scum? I'll keep clicking until I see a scum game. Better yet, guess their alignment from a random game before looking to get reading practice. Second, I don't like the overreliance on the meta data, which put me not even just at leaning scum, but at full scum. Notice that everyone else on his list is at null or town; looks like he townread everyone since it's hard to find scummy things about people when you know they're town, and then realized that he needs a scumread, so he puts me down since he already had a "reason" anyway. That, for me, overrides the townpoints gained from making the effort to meta in a general sense.

VOTE: Lycan

More later, when I have time

[innocentvillager]

Can we clarify quickly who Titus and RC are/what hydras are going on in this game?

Accountant's defensiveness is starting to rub me the wrong way. A bit of defensiveness is fine, especially since I do it, but this seems a bit over the top. I have more thoughts but for now I'm going to sleep (still on vacation)

[innocentvillager]

I'm definitely uncomfortable with Pants's sudden L-1. There is zero town motivation and 100% scum motivation to do that. If he genuinely miscounted, I guess that's fine (even if not very believable). @Pants why did you not bother to announce L-1?

VOTE: Pants[\vote]

It's one thing to not be active, but another to declare a specific post and not follow up on it. These are good enough reasons to give Pants some scum points out of the gate.

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: Pants

Sorry, phone posting is hard

[innocentvillager]

How am I being defensive, IV? Simoyd wrote a post about how I was scum; I responded by writing a post about how I was not. This seems natural.

You should know as an IC that people will make cases on you as town and scum and fypov some of the points may be misreps and maybe even all of them warrant a response. Even if it might not be "NAI", (it's certainly not pro town or IMO good ICing) I don't understand why you would post that last paragraph conclusion and go so far as to force your defense down his throat declaring that he was completely wrong, and his case was horribly misguided. He's a newbie. Don't try to manipulate him by strongarming him into town reading you.

I have a slight scumread on you for this but I also agree with a lot of the things you say so you're at a null for me. I want to see Pants's belated case and response to my accusation first.

I'm also not liking Grace much lately in this game--she was so full of energy in the beginning and "curious" to learn the game, but has recently done nothing towards finding scum. It's as if she tried to appear townie by generating a lot of easy posts in the beginning to build up her count, and then tapers off when she sees the town doing the same. I feel queasy about this because my early scum attitudes were something along these lines, posting as much as I can when it was easy to get my post count up and then not actually make an effort to find scum when I need to. I do like the unvote on Accountant however, so she remains null/light scum for me.

[innocentvillager]

I'm waiting for you to get lynched.

You seem to be very confident on Accountant. You're clearly busy, but even just a few sentences explaining why could potentially be very useful. I have my own reasons for being somewhat suspicious of Accountant, but I'm nowhere near as obvscum-Accountant as you.

[innocentvillager]

I'll set aside a block of time before the 20th to tackle this game then.

Taking accountant off L-1 until that time.

UNVOTE:

More when I have time, but I really don't like this unvote. RC's screaming "Accountant's scum. Really like him for scum. Like my vote on him. He's scum, but I'm busy, so I won't give reasons, but he's scum." And suddenly, "I'm busy, so I'll unvote for now." I didn't have a problem with his tunneling on Accountant before he made this unvote.

It wouldn't really do much good to vote RC now since he won't be doing anything until the 20th, but I want to hear from Pants or his replacement soon, since the unannounced L-1 by an SE was a pretty scummy move.

[innocentvillager]

Um, that's actually a pretty towny post.

If you're referring to RC's post, why?

I initially thought RC's unvote was bad but seeing after his explanation on wanting to really try when you replaced in is NAI at best.

[innocentvillager]

Lol, I forgot that you were still tunneling on me. I guess now that I have a bit of time I can respond to your misgivings.

You thought my first post was fine, ignore the premise, tunnel heavily on the meta portion to the point of giving me towncred, and then when I dismiss meta as primary motive you suddenly want to make it about metagaming again.

I never claimed "extensive meta research" on you. I claimed 1 town game of yours to 1 town game of Mizzy's, while skimming through your ISOs of other games to save time. I didn't need to compare a scum game to your town game to call your town game out of character here(to which you somewhat agreed). You were behaving more strangely than Mizzy, and that's why you're the one I placed my vote on. The moment you stopped posting was the moment I thought lean scum was too tame, because while waiting others did not cease accusing each other. Scum aren't in a hurry to contribute here if accused as each new post they aren't involved in offers opportunities. So, what about town? It would be in a townie's interest to make a meaningful post ASAP if they were the one being accused.

Yeah, sorry not sure why I said extensive meta research, the fact that you were relying on it so much made me subconsciously think that it was extensive research. If you've only looked at one game, that's not enough for meta research no matter how you look at it. I would never trust a meta from just one town game and skimming through more town ISOs; I have no idea why you're literally refusing to look at my scumgames. The other thing is, a lot of people don't have the same playstyle game to game especially since posting is done via feelings at the time, so meta honestly only works if you can average it out and conclude overall that a person has a tendency to do X in towngames, and a tendency to do Y in scumgames. So if you find that I seem different from some random town game you ISO'd, here I'll give you a cookie.

In a townie's interest to make a meaningful post ASAP if being accused? You were the only one that had a serious vote on me, so I didn't really care. Scum have a bit more incentive to stay alive than town, so quick defensiveness is a slight scumtell at worst or a nulltell at best. I'm not understanding your logic.

I thought #104 was pretty meaningful, Lyc. Is there any other reason why you think IV is suspicious?

It was. My problem was that between my first post and my post placing him as scum, he didn't make a meaningful one, despite making a few in that time.

Beyond the points in #46/#106, his post #54 I don't find anything else suspicious.

Also, longer defense/attack posts like this take longer and more energy, so even if I made a few "meaningless posts", those probably took much less time even combined.

Accountant, why defend IV so hard when he had an opportunity to do it himself, gave it up and showed up 36 hours later to try? Popular opinion wasn't against IV. Why should you care more than he did, and what was the rush?

Accountant's defense of me, while slightly odd I agree, was completely right. I didn't need to do any more defense of myself when Accountant had given basically the same defense I would've given, why put in the extra time?

[innocentvillager]

I work full time in retail performing several different jobs and make my posts as I eat or have my breaks. Why do you think you're worth true extensive meta research spanning scumgame vs town game vs town game instead of the only relevant analysis-towngame vs towngame of two different people when choosing to make my vote?

Bruh how long does it take to read briefly through one or two scum games and get an impression? Probably way less time than it takes to write that post of yours. We're all busy here, no one sits on their computer 3-4 hours every day playing mafiascum. If you actually cared about finding scum and you actually have a scumread on me, investigate further into me and maybe you'll get another conclusion from my scumgame.

It was good enough to give me responses that have made me choose to keep my vote on you.

"it was good enough to keep my vote on you" I really don't like this statement. It's like you're refusing to take a few minutes to actually look for something that could be further evidence for your top scumread, and going like "OKAY, you're scummy enough for me". This is not a town-mindset, no matter how burdened you are. But looking at your postcount and the fact that you have taken the time to defend yourself using such defense shows that you clearly have enough time.

I'm pretty sure I've already said this, but if most townies really thought someone was scum and they had meta at their disposal, we wouldn't just look at one side of the coin and come to a conclusion. You simply can't note someone scum for deviating from the one or two towngames you skimmed of them. I'm sorry, you just can't.

You're really going to have to deal with it, or re-vote me if it's suspect.

I was going to do it anyway.

VOTE: Lycanfire

Scum don't have incentive to post while pressured, obv

This is just wrong. I've already explained why.

Odd? Accountant said you were V/LA when you weren't tagged as V/LA. You gave some response about being burned out from your last game and left. Accountant's defense of you was flaccid, and I didn't start questioning it until Simoyd wanted to interrogate Accountant-I let him slide as going for him wasn't going to make you post, allowing him to pressure Mizzy was going to tell me more of his character. I wasn't about to derail that when my focus has decided to go MIA.

It was rather odd that he took time to defend me, that's what I mean by odd, but the content was correct. I was on vacation so unofficially V/LA, but I don't need to declare that since I figured I could probably post once every two days. And yes, I was burnt out from my last game and I didn't post for a bit. Why you're scumreading me for not immediately jumping to my defense is ridiculous at best.

Still waiting on Pants to come back and actually post something.

[innocentvillager]

Okay, I admit I am getting a bit tunnelly this game on Lycan/Pants/etc, so I'm going to figure out where I stand on my reads. My current reads list:

Town

Simoyd

Town-leaning

Harkonnen/Meepo (Both somewhat townie)

Null

RC
Grace
Mizzy/Postie (Postie is townier than Mizzy, which averages to null)

Scum-leaning

Accountant

Scum

Pants
Lycanfire

I have never had such an even distribution of reads before. What is this

[innocentvillager]

Wow, what a bad, bad post.

Complaining about meta that I pressured you over Mizzy is a distraction. I chose you because you were more disappointing. You continued to disappoint me, so my vote has stayed in lack of obvious scum. Flailing around talking about meta doesn't help your case, it only shows that you want to pass the same posts back and forth.

Yes, I am "passing the same posts back and forth", but somehow you have still managed to not realize why I'm not happy with you. I don't give a jackfuck that you pressured me over Mizzy. I don't care about Mizzy; in fact I don't think I've mentioned Mizzy at all in regards to this. Why was he even mentioned? I don't understand why I have to explain the fact over and over again that your meta on me is insincere and not town-motivated, since you have the time to write all of these random posts but can't take two seconds to skim through a scumgame or two of mine.

Next, your list of Pants/Myself/Accountant as likely scum is so incredibly flawed. Of the different possible scum teams, the only one that could plausibly be true is Myself/Accountant. But if this is the case why is Pants there?

They're all plausible. Trying to divine the scumteam from Day 1 never works, I'd estimate it's wrong at least 95% of the time. I don't even think about scumteams until Day 2, when two flips have happened and people actually decide which wagon they're sticking with. One scum at a time. If you're town somehow, don't get ahead of yourself, I promise it doesn't work. We're not even at the end of d1—early game interactions don't mean anything because they can easily be reversed before the end of the day deadline.

I don't get why people think defending someone else early in Day 1 points to a scumteam between them. That's one tell I'll never understand, much less agree with. No one gives a fuck what happens in early/mid D1 in terms of interactions. If this dynamic were to continue well into D2, fine, that's noteworthy.

They're ALL SCUMMY. That's why they're there. What a concept.

Is Pants on there for being universally disliked from promising twice to make a post that never appeared? Is he there because the deadline is/was supposedly the 18th (prior to replacements)?

Again. You're not even reading my posts . I've said my reasoning for my Pants scumread at least twice. I'm not repeating it again.

Is Pants your best lynch choice?

I'll flat out say right now: Pants is not the best choice. That's why I was disappointed with Accountant's answer: he could have said RC was just as likely, or that they were the scumteam, that one was more likely than the other sure, but what I asked was if Pants was the best lynch candidate. This means yes or no, not "yes if not him then other person". I don't know if that's 50/50 or 80/20 or in favor or who.

Simply, Pants is not the best lynch because it doesn't give us clues as to who his partner is. For Accountant moreso-that's why I said it was important and asked him, rather than anyone else. In my opinion, if Pants flips scum Accountant is town. I think this is a safe assumption. For the rest of us, we won't have much clue as to who their partner is based on their posts, but we will know two things-we are town, and Accountant is very likely town as well. Accountant does not get this luxury-if town, they would only know one person is town and has less scumhunting to work with tomorrow.

Therefore, there is no scumhunting Accountant can do tomorrow that he cannot do today.

.

I never claimed Pants to be the best lynch choice, I'm not even sure why this block of text is here. Enlighten me.

If I'm your vote target why am I scum? Why should I be lynched? Make your case, because I'm not going to sit on my hands waiting for deadline so we can lynch Pants. Convince me that you're in this too.

WHY DO YOU NOT READ WHAT I WRITE? Did you just not see posts 104, 248, or 261? I've explained why you're scum multiple times. Hey, let's add cursory reading/bullshit posting/misreps to the mix!

VOTE: Lycanfire

In case it wasn't already clear.

[innocentvillager]

How

Are you capable of typing two or more lines of text

I mean it's not even like you're a shitconfused newb, you're an SE who's played this before

You're still ignoring my tell I pointed out in my first post. If you called my premise silly rather than complain all game I would have unvoted you ages ago.

I can't figure out what you're saying by this post, decrypt it for me plz?

Secondly, I wasn't claiming that you believed Pants was the best lynch-I was claiming your three choices were suspect due to his inclusion on your list for two separate reasons. I questioned why you were voting me at all if you were going to defend rather than attack all game with the conclusion that Pants may be on your list because he is convenient.

Okay sure, well if you read my responses I've basically responded to that.

[innocentvillager]

Postie while you're here can you explain to me this?

Um, that's actually a pretty towny post.

Why was RC's unvote post townie, if he'd been tunneling Accountant all game? I find it null at best, after he explained he did it because you replaced in.

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: Pants98

No. We're not doing this for the very reasons Lycan suggested. I hate to admit it, but he's right on that part. tl;dr Pants's flip tells us nothing.

We are running out time. More votes on Lycan plz

Or Accountant if need be

[innocentvillager]

'Sup y'all - gimme a little time to catch up please

Hurry.

VOTE: snoe

[innocentvillager]

Lmao @mod Grace hasn't posted in like 5 days, can we get a prod on her?

[innocentvillager]

Okay, the scumteam is very likely Lycan/snoe.

[innocentvillager]

Okay, the scumteam is very likely Lycan/snoe.

Why?

I've made my case on Lycan multiple times; I really don't want to do it again, but you want, I can.

Pants's L-1 vote was horrible and way too scummy for an SE.

Snoe is doing a great job of appearing town, but it looks fake.

Finally, here are my notes on reading through the game. They are long - sorry. But I think it’s worth posting them because …
1) One of the few benefits of getting a replacement player is getting a new set of eyes looking at the game. Might help?
2) I need to give you all SOMETHING with which to read my slot. Pants, bless him … didn’t.
3) I usually phone post (meaning I don’t do giant formatted posts like this often) - would like to have this available when I’m on my phone.

Okay, IMO this is just him begging to be townread. If this isn't fake I don't know what is. It's basically posting useless shit and going like "I know I'm posting useless shit but plz don't scumread me for it." Doesn't change the fact that the notes are entirely for show and an effort to be more transparently town. Whenever people clearly try to look town and go out of their way to provide transparency in their "thoughts", that rings alarm bells for me. Natural vs forced towntelling--this reeks of the latter.

Also, from my experience scum love to do shit like this, where you're trying to make it look like you're helping town but you're really not helping town.

Don't believe me? Let's look at his notes. Most of the notes are just summaries of random posts that are COMPLETELY NAI. Why write so much summary text, if most of it is just going to be NAI? More scumpoints for attempting to look useful without being useful. I could quote them all but there's way too many for me to quote--if you really want me to quote more, I can. But honestly just read through it and JUST TRY and tell me that 90% of his "notes" don't contribute nothing to reads, are completely NAI, useless, you get it.

Okay, so the only way I see any of this as town is that he felt the need to take comprehensive notes, so he must've written these notes first and then drawn his reads from looking at these notes, right? But he doesn't even do that. Take his read on Mizzy, for example:

Especially posts 30 & 51 in early game; sheeping Acct in 81 & 82.

He does explain 30, 81, and 82 in the notes, but where is 51?? He makes no real mention of 51 in his notes. So where did that scumread come from? These clearly aren't comprehensive notes, which alone proves that he didn't just take extensive notes, and then draw reads from that. So what's the alternative? Well, in my mind there are a couple of possibilities. He insincerely bullshitted some notes, and maybe took some reads from those notes but also looked back at the thread for a lot of analysis. But if he had to look back at the thread, why take the notes in the first place?? That defeats the purpose of the notes. If he can't even use his own notes effectively to make his reads, how does that make his notes OR reads genuine? The other main possibility is that he wrote the reads concurrently with the notes. This would make it less scummish than the first scenario, but it's still not good, since then there is still really no point in writing the notes in the first place. Finally, the last possibility is that he wrote the reads first. This is the scummiest of all, and if this one is true, he needs to be autolynched. In any of the three cases, they read fake, fake, effort to appear town, fake, etc.

The notes themselves just give me a huge scumvibe. There's so many accusations and random "I like this post!"s just being thrown around with no weight. As scum, I notice people when they make scummy posts, because I'm really making an effort to look for them. I'm thinking, I know everyone here is town, so every post seems extra towny. The moment I see something not townie, I point it out, so I can come up with an excuse to find people scummy. But that's all it ever is: accusations that die. There's no life to his accusations, no desire to look more into these conflicts, only listing them as conflicts. He picks the one scumread he had for the 3 pages or so since that happens to be the easiest, safest choice without stirring up conflict especially since Mizzy was a) pretty widely accused but more importantly b) has literally replaced out, so there's no one to take the blame. He doesn't even attack Postie at all, just Mizzy for like 3 posts that weren't even that bad. So he's done all this "analysis" where he's throwing scumreads everywhere in his notes, tries to stay impartial to the major conflicts going on but just lists them as "conflicted". This right here, while maybe a bit intangible, is a big deal breaker for me.

As far as snoe and Lycan being a scumteam together, I initially thought I saw snoe subtly buddying Lycan, despite listing him under "Conflicted" which was a huge association tell for me (SUBTLE buddying is an association tell, HARD buddying is NI). But I realized while reading through this that he's done this to all four players listed under "Conflicted". I can only conclude that it is likely one of these four players is the scumbuddy, and it's obviously not me, so Lycan/Accountant/RC. I can't read RC, Accountant is kind of scummy, but Lycan is the worst of the three so it seems logical that Lycan/snoe are a scumteam.

Addressing various posts:

Good response from IV in #27 questioning the whole dialogue

So he says this.

51: Mizz pushes IV on not scum hunting yet; IV complains about the “noise” level in the game; IV’s response bugs me as fake:

Yeah but it was just so much so fast and sometimes games like this have a lot of noise that makes it annoying to read. It's foreshadowing that this is going to be an extremely long game, which I don't really like.

I'm like goldilocks and the three bitches. Too much activity and I sit back and skim like a bitch, too little activity and I'll fill the thread with bullshit, otherwise it's just right

But then says this. He agreed with me that it was good to question the dialogue, but he finds it fake when I complain about the noise level?? In what world does that make sense?

262: IV posts reads. The scum read on Lycan strikes me as OMGUS.

What SE still uses OMGUS as a scumtell? This is a tell that maybe a beginner mafia player would use.

But even so, this has nothing to do with OMGUS. I had been scumreading Lycan for most of the game, and I gave reasons for my scumread and voted Lycan before I made that reads post. You admit yourself that Lycan's initial case on me was asinine and a stretch.

261: IV disrespects the life of a retail worker. This is so wrong: “Bruh how long does it take to read briefly through one or two scum games and get an impression? Probably way less time than it takes to write that post of yours. “

I never disrespected the life of a retail worker. I've worked a couple jobs at the same time before, and it sucks. But while Lycan claims he's so busy, his post count and posting frequency would disagree with that. You can't deny that Lycan has been posting a fair amount, so no matter how busy he is, he clearly could have taken time to briefly read a scumgame of mine instead of post once or twice in the thread. It REALLY does not take that long, and should be what a townie would do if he's so intent on me being scum.

[innocentvillager]

"Scum don't have incentive to post while pressured, obv"

^ Can someone explain this to me. I guess I'm missing the obvious but wouldn't scum be more motivated to defend themselves because they have more to lose from dying? Even in this game people have commented that forced or excessive defending is a scum tell. How is the opposite (not posting, so not defending) also a scum tell??

You're not missing anything, you are correct. They (Lycan and snoe, the scumteam) are incorrect.

[innocentvillager]

I can't figure out what you're saying by this post, decrypt it for me plz?

Sure... I considered you or Mizzy as directing attention towards Meepo/Accountant/Grace for no reason. Mizzy offered a lot more and seemed well enough in line with her usual play. You left a question that was already answered twice and it seemed clear to me that you were happy if people kept talking about useless things. At this point, the IC was busy ripping into a newbie and another newbie had no idea what was going on. It's fine if they wanted to have a go at one another, but others needed to drag more people in this. I stepped up to the plate and chose you.

If you're referring to the question answered twice, are you seriously still scumreading me for my "wtf are you guy srs" post or whatever? I already clarified what I meant by that, and it wasn't the same meaning as the previous questions asked. READ. MY. POSTS.

Happy if people kept talking about useless things? I made a whole post where I told people to STOP posting useless things! Why don't you read my posts?

Okay sure, well if you read my responses I've basically responded to that.

where. because i really, really need to see this rebuttal.

ARE YOU SERIOUS? WHY DON'T YOU READ WHAT I WRITE?? Did 267 just not exist?? Do you only choose to read/respond to the things that benefit you?

I'm so done trying to converse with you. I don't understand how you can't scumread Lycan at this point. Misrepping, not reading posts, insincere meta, tunneling, stretchy reasoning, insincere scumhunting, etc, etc, etc.

[innocentvillager]

Sorry, my formatting of that post was awful, the bold wasn't intended to make it more obnoxious, it was just supposed to indicate my reply vs his

[innocentvillager]

Okay peoplz we have 3.5 days left. We need to start forming a wagon, or we're not going to have enough time to make an informed lynch and/or we'll get a PR claim that will confuse the shit out of everyone and the lynch will go to shit. It takes time for people to agree, and only scum benefit from the chaos. With the number of people not actually making substantive posts lately, this is likely to happen.

I want to lynch snoe or Lycan. I am fine with either one. I would prefer Lycan since snoe still hasn't been in the game very long and his flip wouldn't give many association tells, but I am still more than fine with snoe.

I'm baffled at why Lycan is not getting shitstormed by you guys. Can just one of you, even one of you just be like "hey IV, your case is full of shit and here's why: *makes intelligent case on why IV is full of shit and Lycan is not scum* ". If not, I don't see why you're not voting Lycan.

VOTE: Lycan

[innocentvillager]

I don't particularly like your Lycan case.

Great, thank you. I'd love to hear the reasoning.

260: Lycan continues on IV. I think Lycan is tunneling here, but it may be townish tunneling. Lycan says “Scum don't have incentive to post while pressured, obv”, which is true but ignores that IV may be as busy as Lycan is.

"Scum don't have incentive to post while pressured, obv"

^ Can someone explain this to me. I guess I'm missing the obvious but wouldn't scum be more motivated to defend themselves because they have more to lose from dying? Even in this game people have commented that forced or excessive defending is a scum tell. How is the opposite (not posting, so not defending) also a scum tell??

Simoyd, can you give context for the quote? I'm not sure who said it. I'm pretty sure it wasn't me, but it could've been.
(As to the point - I guess scum have more to lose and hence a greater incentive to defend themselves in this setup, but every townie KNOWS they're town and knows nothing else. It makes sense for them to defend themselves too. Did I miss your point?)

More scumpoints for lying and self-contradiction.

[innocentvillager]

I can't figure out what you're saying by this post, decrypt it for me plz?

Sure... I considered you or Mizzy as directing attention towards Meepo/Accountant/Grace for no reason. Mizzy offered a lot more and seemed well enough in line with her usual play. You left a question that was already answered twice and it seemed clear to me that you were happy if people kept talking about useless things. At this point, the IC was busy ripping into a newbie and another newbie had no idea what was going on. It's fine if they wanted to have a go at one another, but others needed to drag more people in this. I stepped up to the plate and chose you.

If you're referring to the question answered twice, are you seriously still scumreading me for my "wtf are you guy srs" post or whatever? I already clarified what I meant by that, and it wasn't the same meaning as the previous questions asked. READ. MY. POSTS.

Happy if people kept talking about useless things? I made a whole post where I told people to STOP posting useless things! Why don't you read my posts?

Okay sure, well if you read my responses I've basically responded to that.

where. because i really, really need to see this rebuttal.

ARE YOU SERIOUS? WHY DON'T YOU READ WHAT I WRITE?? Did 267 just not exist?? Do you only choose to read/respond to the things that benefit you?

I'm so done trying to converse with you. I don't understand how you can't scumread Lycan at this point. Misrepping, not reading posts, insincere meta, tunneling, stretchy reasoning, insincere scumhunting, etc, etc, etc.

I want to apologize for the hostile tone and caps lock, as I got a little emotional, but my frustration remains. I've considered the possibility that I'm confbias tunneling on you, but I've come back time and again in calm states and still think you're likely scum.

VOTE: Accountant

Postie, what's your Snoe read?

Not sure. His catch-up seems very safe, so I can't make much of it. I'll do a metadive to see if he's usually like that.

I did a brief meta of snoe, and what I got from it was basically nothing, since he didn't replace into either of the games and never gave a PbPA in either. I'll probably take another deeper look when I have more time, but let me know what you find.

P-EDIT:

Maybe you missed the last clause of the sentence:

but every townie KNOWS they're town and knows nothing else. It makes sense for them to defend themselves too. Did I miss your point?)

Yes you said that, but you still clearly contradicted yourself. You're still saying that scum have a greater incentive to defend themselves, and only that "it makes for townies to defend themselves as well". This clearly shows that you think scum have more incentive to post while pressured, yet you agree with Lycan's "Scum don't have incentive to post when pressured, obv" statement.

The fact that you contradicted yourself isn't even that scummy (although it definitely is), but your refusal to admit that you messed up makes it worse.

[innocentvillager]

Additionally in 269 you say "I questioned why you were voting me at all if you were going to defend rather than attack all game". I've read it a dozen times, what does that mean?

I LMFAO'D I FELT THE SAME WAY

IV

The tunnelling bugs me a bit (which you admit in 262)... Spending so much effort arguing it and missing the meat of 92 bugs me a bit... Not a huge indicator for me though. For reference: 104, 248, 261, 267

Okay, what does THIS mean? Missing the meat of 92? I'm not sure what this is referring to, or why this is relevant. Why are you quoting those posts?

In 104 you say "Accountant is playing the classic null IC", but in 33 you said the game start doesn't usually look like this. If accountant is playing in a "classic" way, then how is the game unusual? Can you elaborate on this?

I'm not sure how those are mutually exclusive. Accountant was feeling rather nullish at the beginning, despite being a bit defensive. That has nothing to do with the game state. In less than 2-3 hours or so, the game already moved onto arguments on page 2. That's unusual, and there was a lot of noise, which made it annoying. I explained this in one of my posts, but that was a while ago so whatever. I'm just confused on why you're bringing this up NOW, instead of a long time ago—this wasn't even that relevant of a discussion to be brought up again.

You seem to be undecided on pants and RC votes. Not liking RC for the unvote in 229 then recanting in 239. Same with pants, hating the L-1 in 146, then moving away in 291. Now for pants, there's a good reason I think. But I'm curious what caused you to be okay with your previous RC hate, as no real explaination was provided? Or do you still lean scum on RC? This waffling around gives me a slight scum read too. Wondering if you're just feeling the crowd to see what's safe.

So Pants I voted to get him to produce content and for his scummy unannounced L-1 vote. When it became clear that he was not going to post, I redirected my attention towards other people. My scumread on him was always there, and now that snoe's replaced in and made that slot even scummier, it's definitely still there.

As for RC, I scumread his post initially since I didn't see any town motivation that he would release his tunnel/pressure vote. RC later explained he unvoted b/c Postie replaced in so he wanted to really make sure he was playing his best, which I buy because that sounds reasonable. That made it NAI for me, so I stopped scumreading RC for that. Make sure to read the surrounding posts before you accuse, I'm basically just regurgitating the next few posts after my unvote in 229.

IV

Pretty early in the game 52 you're talking about manipulating the pace of the game. Not a big fan of this.

Wait what? I never said that phrase, Lycan did, and that was before I posted. I was talking about how the noise of the game was affecting my ability to read people and was also breeding apathy.

More coming a bit later.

[innocentvillager]

Spoiler: wall

Oh, I get it now. Okay. If you want to be reductive, I have contradicted myself. However, I would suggest that it’s totally possible that these things are simultaneously true:
1) Scum have incentive to lie low when under pressure (paraphrasing Lycan)
2) Scum have strong incentive not to get lynched in this setup (paraphrasing Sim)
3) Town have strong incentive not to get lynched in this setup (paraphrasing IV and Sim saying I contradict myself)

In all these cases, I was agreeing with (and, I think, putting up counterarguments to) people making cases based on responses to challenges/questions.

If you want my overall take on this issue, it’s that defending yourself (or others) is NAI in and of itself. There are good reasons for scum to defend and not defend, and for town to defend and not defend, in the kinds of cases I think we are referring to. When someone puts you at L-4, and you're busy, there's no big pressure to defend yourself, in other words.

This is a clever attempt to save yourself, but it won't work. You have contradicted yourself period—not "if you want to be reductive", and you are trying way too hard to save yourself from it. You clearly said verbatim "scum have more to lose and hence a greater incentive to defend themselves in this setup", which direct contradicts your agreement with Lycan's statement.

Something that I was thinking is that both Pants and Accountant would be sorta scared at me after our last game.

I wouldn't be surprised if Scum!Accountant said that they should bus the other if pressure ever went down.

@RC I'm very curious about this, can you elaborate for those of us who don't know what you're talking about?

I mentioned it here:

In post 310, snoe wrote:
51:

Mizz pushes IV on not scum hunting yet

; IV complains about the “noise” level in the game; IV’s response bugs me as fake:

The bolded part is the only place where you talk about it. I will apologize, since what I said was a bit misleading. I claimed that you wrote nothing about 51 in your notes: What I meant was, you wrote nothing alignment indicative about 51. Therefore, you couldn't possibly have gotten a scumread just from looking at your notes, which means you went back and did some analysis. This is one of the scummy scenarios highlighted by me, since this essentially makes taking "comprehensive" notes pointless, if you're just going to go back and skim through the thread again anyway.

Look, I'm calling it like I see it w/r/t my vote for Mizzy/Postie. The scumreads I'm throwing everywhere are the kind of scumhunting signals I would have commented on (or thought about commenting on) if I had been in the game from the beginning.

Well, of course you would say that as either alignment. It is one of the more intangible aspects of my case on you, but it doesn't change that fact that scum have more incentive to read the game the way you did than town. Your entire catch-up post, as Postie nicely captured it, was just "safe". And being too safe is a scumtell, even if by some chance you are town and your genuine reads just happen to be passive. Especially when you're under lots of pressure to produce content or get lynched.

Consider - for a moment - the scenario where I am not sure who's scum. I know it's shocking to have doubts about your own judgment in this game (/s), but what would you do in my shoes? Flip a coin? Pretend you know who's what? Maybe you would. I wouldn't.

That's not what I mean by you being conflicted. You put under "Conflicted", which refers to your read being conflicted on these 4 people, the ONLY two large CONFLICTS in this game (RC vs Accountant, and me vs Lycan). There are 2 large conflicts involving 4 people, and you try to stay completely impartial for both of them. THAT is definitely scummy.

I agreed with your argument in #27; I thought you over-sold it in #52. Make sense?

27 wasn't an argument. I don't understand how you can think 52 is fake, but okay whatever to each their own.

This is my 4th game on MafiaScum or anywhere - so I am still kind of a beginner. But I didn't use it as a scumtell - I noted it as I read the thread and looked at your interactions.

You didn't use it as a scumtell? Wha????

Some of IV’s responses these challenges seem weak: post 52 (responding to Mizz), 262 (OMGUS read on Lycan).

While you don't explicitly contradict yourself this time, since this is in the reads section it is certainly implied that you scumread me for this. If that part was just there for funsies and not actually alignment-indicative, that's scummy too since you're adding more filler to a reads section when you literally spoilered an entire 300 post PbPA full of filler (why not just keep it there?). So you're scum either way.

IMHO, it is much less time-consuming to type out a comment than to read through a game - or two games. I shouldn't have taken the "retail worker" dig - I was one too, for many years, and though I'm out of retail I still have to deal with shitty hours etc. So fist-bump on that, all 3 of us. But the LARGER POINT is that calling someone out for not going outside the game to get a meta-read on someone is BS. That is a good thing to do if you have time. However, it can also be a waste of time - I've done it before, and you and others just did it on me, and it sounds like we all got zilch out of the exercise.

Skim. He STILL has not even skimmed a scumgame of mine to get an impression. When I meta'd you, I didn't read all 100+ posts or whatever that you wrote in detail. I picked some of the juicier ones, and skimmed through the rest to get an impression. That's all I need to do.

You aren't understanding the meta-debate between me and Lycan at all, are you? I don't have a problem with him not using meta—that's ridiculous. What I do have a problem with (and here I'll explain it for like the fourth time) is that he meta'd one or two of my towngames, and make a conclusion solely based off of that. I have lots of scumgames! How does he know that my scumgame isn't jsut like my towngame? That's just insincere scumhunting. He's avoiding my scumgames at this point literally just to prove a point. If he had just been like "Okay, fine I'll briefly look at a scumgame." and 10 min later, been like "Your scumgame is completely different, and exactly the same as your play in this game because of X, Y, and Z." THAT'S TOWN BEHAVIOR. But instead, he's just complaining about how he has no time (meanwhile posting a lot, mind you), and using up more time to just complain about me. Defending your scumbuddy isn't going to work, sorry.

IV is pissing me off

Lmao. Here's a box of tissues

[innocentvillager]

I'll respond to IV's wall tomorrow. Looks like a wall o' bullshit to me, but I'll try. Thanks for the tissues, by the way.

You're welcome. You can flail all you want.

Also, I'm not posting in this thread until tomorrow night late maybe. Hopefully when I come back a substantial wagon will have formed on Lycan or snoe.

[innocentvillager]

Will catch up on this tonight, sorry

[innocentvillager]

Before I write my catch up post:

because I know I'm town and you don't

Okay, if thjs isn't a scumslip, I don't know what is.

VOTE: Lycanfire

I'm not moving my vote for the rest of day unless I hear something damn fucking good.

[innocentvillager]

that's not a scumslip?

Really? If he's town, how would he know that I don't know that he's town? He didn't scumread or townread me really at the end of his post. This is slipping that he knows I'm town.

[innocentvillager]

that's not a scumslip?

Really? If he's town, how would he know that I don't know that he's town? He didn't scumread or townread me really at the end of his post. This is slipping that he knows I'm town.

That's not a slip unless he claimed to scumread you.

Explain please.

Also I know you just replaced in, but he's been scumreading/tunneling on me basically this entire game, and only in that post did he finally put me at null.

[innocentvillager]

but he's been scumreading/tunneling on me basically this entire game

I think you've been tunneling on him, not him on you.

We've clearly both been tunneling on each other. Maybe me more so than him, but he was definitely quick to put me at the top of his scumlist and that didn't change until very recently.

[innocentvillager]

It means he's

consistently

completely open about you being town regardless of who was tunnelling whom.

I've read this like 10 times and I'm struggling to understand how it refutes my argument.

I've thought about it over some more, and I think I kind of get your point, but I'm still not sold on loosening "rope".

So we agree that if he's scumreading me at post time, it's a scumslip because if he was town, he would be very suspicious of me and should post with the mindset that I'm probably scum, and therefore claiming that I don't know that he's town is scummy.

We also agree that if he's townreading me at post time, it's not a scumslip because he's posting with the mindset that I'm town, and subconsciously assuming so is understandable. I would argue that it's still a bit of a scumtell because accidental surety is scummy (unless he was 100% townreading me). So far so good, right?

Then comes the case where I'm somewhere in-between, which is what this is and clearly what we're disagreeing on. I realize confbias might be getting in my way to call this accurately, but I still think this is at least a major scumtell. He was just very suspicious of me for the past 12 or so IRL days, and now I'm suddenly at nullish. He's clearly still suspicious of me, even if not as much as before. To subconsciously post with the mindset that I am town is contradictory, and shows scum-motivation for the same reason that it would if he was scumreading me. If not a scumslip, at least a major scumtell.

[innocentvillager]

No. To shift from scum to null suggests an implicit considering of you as town.

Okay, that's actually a good point. Fine, I'll agree that it's not a slip or a major scum tell. I still get a bad vibe from it due to the surety.

[innocentvillager]

Honestly I think this circleshitting session between Postie Titus RC and Accountant can happen on d2. I'd much rather get Lycan/Blank today.

Blank doesn't give major scumvibes necessarily, but definitely has not been towntelling. His reads aren't as scummy as much as they are bizarre.

I'm willing to lynch him based on the horribad scumminess of Pants/snoe.

Intent to hammer

[innocentvillager]

Y?

I say hammer away

Okay I'm now happy to put Titus in my scumpool.

Postie, you were very recently all for lynching Blank. What happened?

[innocentvillager]

IV, have you read RC's case in 535?

Sorry, I was actually just about to talk about that before you posted and then my computer froze on me so I lost my post.

Yeah, I read RC's case. Some of it I agree with, and the logic behind the case in general makes sense. A lot of it I don't know because most of it is still meta-shitting. Now, you and RC and maybe Titus can all speak to that since you've played with Accountant and stuff, fine. But you and RC can't expect to get others to just sheep you if RC's just assuming all these things about what town!Accountant would do or wouldn't do when there's no easy way to verify that.

That said, I'm leaning scum on Accountant, definitely more so after RC's case. But I like the snoe/Lycan scumteam a lot better, and I can reasonably entertain the possibility of a town!Accountant in this game. With snoe and Lycan I'm struggling to see them as anything but scum.

You don't get to just skip over it and then state intent on another player.

Um, yes I can? What kind of strongarming appeal to authority attitude is that? Off your high horses please. Just because RC finally comes out with his SOLE well-reasoned post this entire game doesn't mean I HAVE to read it and respond to it before making a vote. I'm disappointed by this part of your post.

How about "IV, have you read RC's case? If not, read it. Otherwise, explain why you're not voting Accountant." Not too hard, right?

[innocentvillager]

Y?

I say hammer away

Okay I'm now happy to put Titus in my scumpool.

Postie, you were very recently all for lynching Blank. What happened?

Where was Postie in favor of lynching Blank?

These suggest it:

*shrug* As long as we lynch all of Accountant/Lycan/snoe at some point we should be good.

If we kill Accountant we can just kill snoe the day after though...

Yeah, I'm good with lynching BlankFace after Accountant. Those reads are awful.

Looks like Postie obviously wants Accountant over BlankFace at least for today, but I don't see why she would get so upset if we lynched Blankface instead on d1. He's in her scumpool. IMO Postie overreacted.

I'm almost leaning scum on Postie, but at the same time I already have 3 scumreads which is a problem so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt for now.

[innocentvillager]

Y?

I say hammer away

Okay I'm now happy to put Titus in my scumpool.

Postie, where does this come from? You already knew at this point Titus is willing to lynch Blank right now, especially when she put Blank at L-1. So I'm not understanding why this quote suddenly makes Titus much more of a scumcandidate.

[innocentvillager]

Sorry if I came across as harsh. It's just bad form to state intent on a player without addressing or even acknowledging the disagreements people have just brought up about your choice of lynch.

Ah okay, sorry I interpreted your comment differently lol. I get that.

And the meta stuff is pretty credible given RC's track record when it comes to reading Accountant. That's not really something you can just ignore or heavily downplay because you haven't played with Accountant before yourself (I haven't either).

Stats on RC reading Accountant correctly/incorrectly?

[innocentvillager]

100%.

You can verify it yourself.

100% from how many games..?

2 for 2 is pretty different from 10 for 10, for example.

[innocentvillager]

4 / 4

Okay, let's use math to figure out how good RC is at reading Accountant lol

Probabilistically (approximations)

1/4 chance Accountant is scum, 3/4 chance of town

I'm guessing 2 scum (saw 2 scumgames of Accountant) and 2 town.

Random chance would say (1/4)*(1/4)*(3/4)*(3/4) = 3.5% chance of calling alignment correctly every time

Hm, that's pretty good. Okay, I'll buy you on your meta provided that you aren't scum, which I'm estimating to be below a 10% chance at this point.

I still want Blank lynched, but I'm game for an Accountant lynch too I guess if Blank's lynch isn't going anywhere. This is a bit troubling, since at least one of Lycan/Blank/Accountant are going to flip town, but I have a good feeling the scumteam is in there.

[innocentvillager]

These numbers make no sense IV lol

Why not?

Just tell me if you're a diagonal PR (Tracker/JK/Cop) you will check Titus tonight if this is a scum flip, not one of those 3.

[innocentvillager]

RC didn't just randomly guess Accountant's role in all of those games. I doubt that he just said "Accountant is scum!" and was right about it. He used logic and read him.

This isn't about numbers, it's about .... I don't know the word in English

If town completely randomly determined who to kill, town would win roughly 35-55% of the time.

Town, in this setup, wins 48.9% of the time. Generally, it's pretty close to 50-50, in an effort to make it balanced for both factions.

My point is, reads do not make it THAT much more likely for town to win versus random chance. It will of course, help, but not substantially. The probability that RC predicts Accountant's role correctly in all 4 games where Accountant was scum twice and town twice is 3.5% based on random chance. That's about 1 in 30. Reading might theoretically push these odds up to 1 in 15 max, but the fact that RC can pull off a 3.5% chance read on someone is clearly indicative of something mathematically significant, you can't deny that. How could this manifest? Most likely, he has some sort of system for reading Accountant that has worked.

Was he just lucky? Could've been. 1/30 odds, if we're not to believe that RC is a good scumhunter at all. But mafia itself is a game of probabilities. I'm willing to weigh such odds in my decision to further scumread Accountant.

[innocentvillager]

so vote accountant then IV

I still want Blank gone, but it doesn't look like we're going to be able to decide on Blank with the little time we have.

VOTE: Accountant

I believe that's L-1.

[innocentvillager]

If we do end up lynching Accountant, Blank/Lycan need to die tomorrow REGARDLESS of the flip.

I'm also incredibly drunk right now, I'll finish it tomorrow morning. But if you can't read between the lines and see my focus is right now, with how far I've analyzed, I'd have to say you aren't reading the posts I make that are actually meaningful.

HoS[\b] IV&Titus for that L-1 and intent before I'm even caught up fully.

Lucky you, you might get another 2 weeks to cure your hangover and craft your scummish prose.

What's a HoS??

We're out of time. If we get a PR claim, we need to be able to account for that before we hammer. No last minute PR claims and wagon shifting. We don't have time to wait for you to catch up.

[innocentvillager]

IV stop.

Stop with what? I did what you wanted, with the L-1. I just hope you're right. I've already accepted to place my faith in your empirical successes.

[innocentvillager]

Why didn't you answer me ;(

No longer cute.

Not game related but are you seriously really awkwardly trying to hit on Postie.... this post makes me so uncomfortable lol.

Here's what's going to happen.

If this flips town all PRs can do whatever.

If it flips scum I am going to assume that diagonal PR is auto targetting Titus.
That means if you flip later and haven't claimed we are taking Titus as confirmed town.

Just do it, please.

Okay, I think this is fair. If we trust that RC has scum pegged this time and Accountant flips scum, I think diagonal PR should listen to him. I'm fine with this form of sheeping since RC establishes prior credibility by leading lynch on a confirmed scum, instead of just appealing to authority. And of course, if Accountant flips town, then RC's credibility plummets, so PRs can do whatever they want.

[innocentvillager]

Why is Blank not six feet under yet?

I don't know. This is the next best alternative.

Also, are you guys seriously wanting to lynch me because RC has a perfect record of reading my alignment?

Yes. Like I explained, 4/4 is pretty damn good, especially if 2 of those are scumgames.

[innocentvillager]

HoS

IV&Titus for that L-1 and intent before I'm even caught up fully.

We're don't have a whole lot of time left. And people tend to go awol on weekends... We should really put accountant at L-1 asap

I want to lynch you because of pages 5-10. If you have an issue with what I've said, respond to it.

IV, HoS is a step above FoS. It means trying to hammer someone who isn't caught up 100% is scummy as shit. We have 2 days, calm the fuck down and hold your horses. And you'll be lucky if I am hung over tomorrow, you got by for eight pages without doing anything. Don't think I didn't take note of that. Vacation or not, it's not hard to voice a quick opinion.

8 Pages without doing anything? LMAO nice try. I was on vacation, like you mentioned, but I still made 12 posts in those 8 pages. At least half of those were substantive and contributed to the game. I voiced multiple quick opinions. Did you even read, or are you just grasping at straws to justify your OMGUS on me?

You're overreacting. My intent on you was not scummy as shit at all. I had a huge scumread on snoe, had a decent scumread on Pants, and nothing about you was making me feel anything better about your slot, so why should I wait for you to catch up when you're all hungover and we have less than 2 days left?

And yes, believe it or not, 2 days is not a lot of time. People don't just magically appear online all at once. We'll also need someone to claim before we lynch them. If they claim VT, fine, get them, whatever, unless they start spewing obvtown in their last writhing moments. If they claim PR, we need to accomodate time for that to go through, make sure everyone has had a chance to cc, before finding a WHOLE new wagon, and asking them to claim, etc, etc. I've been through bad shit like this before, and we've made terrible d1 lynches from that and/or outed more roles than necessary. We need that "just in case" time.

[innocentvillager]

That seems like a fairly strong reason to want to lynch you.

Claim.

Uh? Unless the vote count is screwed up I'm at L-2.

Nope, just checked you're at at L-1.

[innocentvillager]

Nope, Lycan/Blank scumteam.

VOTE: BlankFace

[innocentvillager]

Titus, Doctor, Killed Night 1

I'm 100% sure that titus is confirmed town.

LOL I missed that xd

Okay, I take back my words about you sheeping Titus

This is definitely a townslip.

I'm only seeing more Blank/Lycan scumteam. I should've trusted my gut all along. No more sheeping for me.

[innocentvillager]

dat bus

[innocentvillager]

How's Simoyd/Lycan?

I actually kind of buy that as a possibility given Simoyd's recent posting, but Blank is just too scummy to ignore.

[innocentvillager]

Lol I don't like how Lycan almost got lynched so quickly. What's the rush guys, we have almost 2 weeks left to discuss?

Anyway, I'm not that sure of Blank/Lycan scumteam, because Blank said Lycan is his top town read. I think if they were scum they would try to distance themselves. And it's always a good strategy for a scum to call someone else than his scumbuddy a strong town read for two reasons:

1) If the townread dies and flips, it will look good on the scum
2) If the scum dies, everyone will suspect the townread as his scumbuddy

So yeah, I think that it's possible that this is happening between Blank and Lycan.

VOTE: BlankFace

I'm confused, you first say it's not likely they are partners, but at the end, you say it's possible they are and you vote Blank?

At this point I'm not surprised that Blank has Lycan as top town--it makes sense as scum at this point. Lycan/Blank scumteam is the #1 choice right now for good reason, and to dispel that, one way to go about it is for Blank to throw out as much towntells about Lycan as possible, even after Blank ends up flipping scum. It's not necessarily an associative tell, but it's not always good to distance, especially when most people are pegging the correct scumteam. There are other things that make me think Blank/Lycan are scumteam together, but not this.

[innocentvillager]

811

Yes, and?

I probably wouldn't have hammered, anyway. I don't see the point in shortening the day and denying town further information to make sure Lycan/Blank is the scumteam.

[innocentvillager]

How's Simoyd/Lycan?

Now that I think about it, RC, this is much more unlikely given Simoyd's willingness to put Lycan at L-1 recklessly.

[innocentvillager]

How's Simoyd/Lycan?

Now that I think about it, RC, this is much more unlikely given Simoyd's willingness to put Lycan at L-1 recklessly.

People panic bus all the time.

Sure, but I still think it's much less likely that someone would do that, especially a newbie.

[innocentvillager]

Given that neither Lycan nor Blank are in that scumteam, I'll take a hard pass.

[innocentvillager]

Simoyd/Postie looks pretty compelling if you go back through their ISOs/interactions of day 1, but if you go with the Postie as scum theory just about anyone that isn't Blank or myself is pretty good for being her scumpartner. For instance, just about everything I could say about Simoyd/Postie I could say about you, RC, except rather than Simoyd sheeping Postie at one point, Postie has been sheeping you instead. IV wouldn't have this in his case, but of the four possible scum partners I'd consider, he was the most rigid in his scumpool, matching Postie. Hark shows up and makes a good post, or a clueless one every so often so I would struggle to pin him with someone. Being the starting vote on Postie makes me the least suspicious of him.

I don't understand what you're concluding. It just sounds like you're throwing waffly accusations around.

[innocentvillager]

I just really hate how you have basically anyone open for a scumread. Not just this post, in previous posts too. This is fencesitting/waffling at its finest.

[innocentvillager]

Guys what if the scumteam was Me/Lycan this whole time

I'd be like FACK U BITCHES

[innocentvillager]

Guys what if the scumteam was Me/Lycan this whole time

I'd be like FACK U BITCHES

if we were the scum team i would have lynched you day 1 for sure.

Nah I'd get you lynched first and then take all the towncred, kill RC, ML on Accountant, kill Hark, ML on Blank, kill Titus, and beat Simoyd/Postie in lylo

[innocentvillager]

Maybe I should get more specific. I think Simoyd/Blank is the scum team. Everyone else is town. If Simoyd is town, Postie might be the second scum, but in the Postie/Blank theory, I'm liking her more as town the more she insists on her lynch pool.

You should've said this sooner. Saying it now when you're prompted to only makes you look worse.

Also, why the more she insists on her lynch pool the townier? I must admit, my reads haven't changed very much this game (which tbh is kind of scumtell), so I'm not sure what you mean

[innocentvillager]

All I really got from that was that Blank and Simoyd are probably not a scumteam. I don't see why Blank is necessarily less scummy for this.

[innocentvillager]

I don't think Simoyd is trying to rush a Blank lynch specifically. He did the same to Postie earlier this day.

Someone put Postie on L-1 and let her claim please.

He did this to Lycan, not Postie.

[innocentvillager]

Now that I think about it, sure it's theoretically possible that Simoyd L-1'd one of his partners to deflect suspicion from their wagon, given that he's done it twice in the span like 2 IRL days.

But I still think Simoyd is probably newbtown. His posting mostly screams newbtown. Some of his actions are pretty scummy but they can all be explained plausibly under the context of newbtown.

[innocentvillager]

pretty sure that RC has never voted blank. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Where are you going with this..?

[innocentvillager]

I agree. I think that he is playing aggresively, and when you are town and you are new, your first instinct is to play as aggresively as possible. At least that's how I was in my first town game.

I think this is a personality issue lol

If you look at my first game on this site... lmao I was the VI who gave shitty reads, terrible reasoning, didn't contribute, etc.

I did put the scumteam in my top 3 though on d1.

[innocentvillager]

Ok apparently we're reading it about the same now. Carry on.

huh?

Why are you the only person whose posts I fail to understand at least half the time

[innocentvillager]

Recent posts are making me feel very uncomfortable, not sure in what way yet.

[innocentvillager]

I trusted IV to handle the hammer appropriately because I town read him.

Hold on bro, didn't you very recently suggest a me/postie scumteam

[innocentvillager]

Hold on bro, didn't you very recently suggest a me/postie scumteam

yes. That possibility has been very low on my list. I wanted to see what others think. You are currently my second top townread under harkonnen

Okay, why?

[innocentvillager]

Also, let's not turn Simoyd into Accountant number 2. Okay, guys?

inb4 someone says it's me/Simoyd ^^

What does Accountant number 2 mean? How would that be different from a normal ML? Is it the sheeping RC aspect of it...

[innocentvillager]

Whoever you guys decide to vote today, as long as 0% of your reasoning is because you're sleeping RC, that's better than nothing.

But seriously vote Blank with me please. He's just been coasting. He's not even trying at this point-at least his partner is sort of trying to get themselves out of this situation by bussing.

[innocentvillager]

*sheeping not sleeping

[innocentvillager]

Postie you didn't even L-1 -_-

L-1

If blank flips town somehow then it's definitely Postie/Lycan tomorrow.

[innocentvillager]

UNVOTE: BlankFace

ffs calm down please rc.

[innocentvillager]

Why the hell did you claim PR??? No one stated intent yet.

Also, if there's a PR cc out now.

[innocentvillager]

If you vote Lycan I am policy lynching you.

Not my fault you got both Accountant and Titus wrong, both of whom you were very convinced were scum.

Yeah, I'm bringing it up again. I definitely don't have to sheep you or your reads even if you are cop, especially when you're 0/2 for this game.

[innocentvillager]

Well whatever. Now that Blank's not scum I'll have to rethink my scumreads anyway, and if real PR cc's you, that's just idiotic on your part.

Maybe you'll get lucky

[innocentvillager]

Do you think the more you yell at people the more they will just automatically hop on your scumreads? That's not how it works. I will evaluate Postie/Simoyd on my own.

[innocentvillager]

U r voting my inno and you're getting mad at me for outing.

>.>

Because at least 3 people were put at L-1 by Simoyd and no one really was going to hammer them. Why not wait until someone intents hammer on Blank?

I mean you gave your reasoning already, to which I just said whatever.

[innocentvillager]

Dear god this town is fucked

[innocentvillager]

Actually maybe this isn't so bad. RC/Blank are clear given no one randomly ccs RC. It's not Hark.

Postie/Lycan/Simoyd is all that's left

If Lycan isn't scum, then it's Postie/Simoyd and RC was right all along.

Otherwise, it's Lycan/Simoyd or Lycan/Postie.

VOTE: Lycanfire

Policy lynch me RC. I dare you.

[innocentvillager]

Okay we have an ML too. So we just lynch in Lycan/Simoyd/Postie the next three days and we're done.

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: InnocentVillager

I knew you would do it too lmao

[innocentvillager]

I can lynch you, then no one is going to lynch Lycan, then Simoyd, then Postie.

It has the added perk of not having to deal with you potentially fucking up the lynch later.

It's like the game where I didn't PL MOI and then we nearly lost because he kept trying to lynch town.

Wait but here's the thing.

You're dead tonight, or you're getting RB'd and Blank gets NK'd. So why do you even care? I'm not going to lynch Hark. That means, once we get Lycan today and if for some reason he flips town, then I'll get Simoyd/Postie tomorrow.

[innocentvillager]

I do care because I don't trust you and I trust the rest of the town. You've proven that you're easily courted by scum and I don't want to risk it happening again when we have no mislynches. You vote with me or you go.

Courted by scum? Dude, my reads have literally not changed this entire game. I'm surprised I haven't been scumread for that yet, but whatever. I've been Lycan/Blank since like beginning of time. I LITERALLY sheeped YOU on Accountant because I saw your track record and figured maybe you were just really good at reading them.

D2 comes and, guess what? I'm still Lycan/Blank. Is it really so hard to believe that I don't want to sheep you a second time since you got Accountant/Titus both wrong? Now you claim cop with inno on Blank. That's two clears, one of which was my top scumread. Since I heavy TR Hark, there's only 3 left.

What part of that is being "courted by scum"?

[innocentvillager]

Simoyd is town af for that self L-1 though or an intricate scum gambit??

Simoyd has L-1'd basically every fucking person in this game though

[innocentvillager]

Can someone make sense of this clusterfuck

[innocentvillager]

Oh god I don't like this at all

*puts self at L-1*
"NO ONE HAMMER ME OR YOU'RE SCUM"


???

[innocentvillager]

Oh my fucking god

[innocentvillager]

I don't think I have ever seen a game this fucked on MS. Ever.

[innocentvillager]

Let's all sit in a circle and pray that Lycan/Blank aren't real PR

Let's all sit in a circle and pray that Simoyd is scum

And that everything will be okay

Because this has gone to shit

[innocentvillager]

I am cop. I will be targetting Hark tonight for #reasons. Don't do anything stupid.

I thought you were convinced it was Postie/Simoyd.

[innocentvillager]

I'm VT

I really hope you're lying

[innocentvillager]

oh my god. I'm laughing so hard. GUISE THINK ABOUT THIS IT"S OBVIOUS. (trying not to post anything after I'm dead)

Oh you claimed scum. Hah okay

I think..?

[innocentvillager]

When a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players may continue to post.

[innocentvillager]

What the fuck Hark

Okay Hark is scum with Lycan or Postie this game actually makes more sense now

[innocentvillager]

I THOUGHT SIMOYD WAS AT L-2

OOPS

Simoyd is making a last-ditch effort to make himself look town. He is basically bluffing.

This is GG.

VOTE: Simoyd

Goodnight, sweet prince :^)

OKAY THAT IS AUTO FUCKING SCUM.

"This is GG. Goodnight sweet prince."

Later

"OOPS I THOUGHT IT WAS L-2"

[innocentvillager]

Wtf RC blank wasn't even inno

[innocentvillager]

Okay this makes a lot more sense, scum team of Hark/Blank probably.

[innocentvillager]

Wtf Hark?? That case doesn't even make any sense.

Also, if you're town, you NEED TO unvote NOW in case Postie is town too.

[innocentvillager]

You're scum Blank.


VOTE: Blank

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: Postie

Whatever.

[innocentvillager]

lel

[innocentvillager]

That was a really drawn out quickhammer lol sorry

[innocentvillager]

RC, what gave me away as scum? I knew your reads were likely not always exactly what you said they were lol, but just curious.

[innocentvillager]

I think this is the second game ever that I've won as scum staying in the whole time from start to finish lel, and both times it definitely wasn't by my merit that we won–my scumgame is generally pretty awful. I'd love some feedback on my scumgame, but feel free to tell me to fuck off or something idk lol.

@Cakez and RC again when you get to it, I'm curious what was scummy about my play?
@Anyone who townread me: What made me feel town?
@Anyone: I tried to distance Pants/snoe/Blank, did it work (if so, what made it work), or was it always a real possibility?

[innocentvillager]

Thanks RC!

without the Simoyd associative and

Postie's super towny spreadsheet result

she wasn't scum

Can you clarify what this is...??

[innocentvillager]

Lol

Yeah IMO most of Lycan's posts were pretty obvtown, but I chose to conveniently ignore them and attack the few nitpicky scummy things I saw lawl