Newbie 1723 - Game Over!

[Nachomamma8]

Hello everyone!

I'm the IC, I normally don't make a big IC post because I find that they are long and boring and most valuable things that you learn in mafia you learn from experience/looking into stuff yourself, but two universal recommendations.

1) Don't quickhammer. It's important to get a workable amount of information out before the day ends (you'll get a better feel for what "workable information" is once you play more, and it's very very important to let people claim here before they die. As a result, please claim intent to hammer before actually hammering.

2) Don't self-vote. We have 2-week long deadlines here, but, in reality, it only takes about 5 minutes for people to type the unvotes for a lynch to completely fall apart. There's a very high chance that we won't get everything right immediately, there's a very high chance that we end up pushing people who shouldn't be lynched, but that doesn't mean that there's no chance of you dying; there are spots to self-hammer as scum to cut off discussion, but never ever self-hammer or self-vote as town; keep fighting until the lynch is finalized and the thread is locked and it will help town quite a bit in the end.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: thenewearth

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: thenewearth

Nacho probably remembers me and is voting because he doesnt want any hindrance to his mafia plans.

Also as far as i know its "pre-game" and votes dont count.

But just in case its counted

VOTE: nacho

[Nachomamma8]

I'm townreading everyone that's posting.

[Nachomamma8]

But I have a very strong feeling that this is going to be one of those games where a good majority of the playerlist will be replaced before we can actually get moving, so don't be surprised if it's a bit of a slow start.

[Nachomamma8]

And by everyone, I mean more Franky and Dirty Harry than I mean TNE.

[Nachomamma8]

RQS (is there one of those on this forum?)

I don't think that RQS is productive to finding scum.
All questions in RQS will produce what ends up being almost completely non-alignment relevant answers; it can occasionally be useful for profiling players, but generally you'll get a better idea of what kind of player someone is by playing with them for a short amount of time. Mafiascum as a whole is pretty opposed to RQS.

Pro-active intro.
e_is_cool wants to get to know the player list, their disposition and experience.

This seems like a generally positive response to the RQS; why didn't you answer e's questions if you thought what he was doing was a good thing?

Nachomamma8.
Do you think there is a correlation between newb-scum voting for their scum partners?
Do you think there is a correlation between experienced scum not voting for their newb-scum partners?

Yes to both of these; although I think how willing a player is to vote their scumpartner depends very very heavily on their disposition as opposed to their experience, I have thoughts on both of these.

I think that newb-scum tend to defend their scum partners too hard or they tend to vote them too early. This is based on mistakes in two different directions; I think that they defend their scumpartners too hard because they're afraid to lose them, and I think they vote them too early if they think they look scummier than they do. An average new scum player is probably less likely to vote their scumpartner than most.

I think that experienced scum rarely vote for their newb-scum partners; as scum IC, I try to give my scumpartner every opportunity to post and be townread and survive, and if possible, I'll be the one to be the sacrificial sheep and set them up for endgame, and I think that extends to most people who IC or SE seriously. That being said, if I my scumpartner is lurking or looks really scummy or we've talked about distancing in scum chat, then I'm more likely to place a distancing vote/bus.

[Nachomamma8]

Are you trying to figure out if you should vote for your mafia partner? Because that type of question is best answered after votecounts, not before. (No point in telling everyone all the scumtells if no one has done any of them.)

There is not a list of scumtells that help you find mafia; generally, finding mafia is a large part dependent on context and intent. For example, in a general newbie game, me as scum voting for a player and legitimately pushing them for a lynch would be a decent sign of that player being town. However, in this particular game, I talked about my tendencies as scum early, which means that I'm more likely to go against them.

Are you sure no one has done any scum tell yet?

Do you think that you found something?

as opposed to the scum-e_is_cool overreacting and miss-representing my motivations with a reachy scum theory narrative

I don't think e misrepresented your motivations; it's more likely that he came up with a theory that isn't very likely to be correct.

It looks town really but most of it that I encounter are from scum. 80% of it. Its a really easy LAMIST play.

What does LAMIST mean?
I don't think that e's RQS looks particularly scum-motivated, but I'm also not sure why you think that it looks really town.

[Nachomamma8]

Hey Errant!

I'm glad that you found your way into this game!

[Nachomamma8]

Okay, I'll try not to do that next game I'm in. (I figured that RVS and RQS are basically the same thing, just a bit of randomness at the beginning of the game.)

They're basically the same thing, but, in my opinion, the advantage of RVS over RQS is the lack of a formula. RQS openings usually look pretty similar across the bored; most people ask standard questions, some people ask silly questions, some people answer, some people don't, the game moves on. It's a hell of a lot more awkward to get the came going when mafia in RVS because there's nothing that you're supposed to do; so you let other people lead and get the game started, but that in and of itself sets you apart from everyone else, there's also a pretty long awkward period where people don't know what's a serious vote and what isn't and certain reactions can be telling, etc. In short, RVS celebrates its ambiguity while RQS tries to fight it. Does that make sense or did I get lost in a ramble?

Long story short, it basically means someone who's trying to look town so much. RQS is an example.

Sometimes, not often.
In this case, it seems like he just posted it because that's the standard opening on his site.

Why is that? Oh right because "RQS is town you're scum because you dont agree with e"

Double lul. I swear one of them is scum along with e

I don't think this is actually what anyone is saying.
Why not answer Errant's earlier question about e's homesite?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not in the mindset today

I also forgot to set my V/LA

Fuck it

@mod: V/LA 2 days

I need to cool my head off

Good timing!

[Nachomamma8]

Catchup incoming.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: what do you think of parabola so far?

Parabola seems fine so far. Why did you ask about Parabola specifically?

Note 1: must look at both his scum and town meta of receiving early votes/pressure.
Note 2: thenewearth has been the most talked-about/scum-read player so far.

Did you do either of these things?
TNE is a "she", btw.

Uneasy with this snap-shot of everyone - some observations were more info/activity-led than alignment indicative-led.
No direct interactions thus far with any players though.

I don't think that this is an unreasonable place to be at this point in time; most players haven't really done a whole lot of note quite yet and it's not like Faaaalcon ignored any events that were particularly interesting. Are there some things that Faaalcon should have picked up on but didn't?

@Vecna, you came out swinging and never stopped last game you played as Town, what's changed now?

Why ask this question before Vecna posted?

[Nachomamma8]

The quote is already in there. I bolded it for you because I'm nice, but I don't believe for a second that you don't remember your own quote, or that you just missed that it was already quoted in a line of discussion that was specifically about it.

I'm assuming that e was driving at is that you should quote where you've seen something that like that before, as you implied with the "scum deja vu" comment; this is something I'd also be interested in. Also, why didn't you answer what you thought of Parabola yet?

Right so Nacho is noncommittal as heck, I don't know if he's keeping himself up to date, but all criticism seems to come from an IC perspective rather than a scumhunt perspective and even any scumhunting I've seen and doesn't have anything backing it up. Hella scummy, seems like Nacho is hiding behind an IC barrier as an excuse not to play. Want fast followup on this one.

My opening has been non-committal because there hasn't exactly been a whole lot of things to commit to early game.
Dirty Harry has been active and asking questions which could possibly be a reason for an early townread if he was a new player, but he isn't.
It seems pretty likely to me that TNE being wrong about RQS being scummy isn't something that's more likely to occur if she was scum; there is no motivation whatsoever for scum to lie that hard when making a push on page 2, so I'd expect the LAMIST line of thought to be something that she believes regardless of alignment.

I could have chosen to open the game and push all of the small leans that I have strongly regardless of alignment, but I've chosen to play this game more conservatively than usual; this doesn't mean that I won't contribute to game solving as much as I would normally, but it does mean that I will dramatically cut down on saying things just to say things.

I normally like early aggression towards the IC in general, but your line of thought that I would need to hide behind IC theory as scum suggests that you think that I'm a weak player, which downplays that towntell a bit. I also think that you have an uneven approach to me/Vecna that I don't understand; why is me not contributing significantly in the first three pages present a larger concern than Vecna avoiding contributing significantly through "BEAEHFFEEHFEEHFEEHFEEEEE"? Why did you let Vecna slide after Vecna continued with the "BEEEEHEEEHEEHEHEHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH" after you asked Vecna to explain?

82 - Dirty Harry is not being neutral because he said he leans towards the latter. Which is him saying it's a scumtell.
89 - Scumlean is not neutral. Nobody should go gung-ho over nothing so it makes more sense to have just leans with this little information

These two points don't actually seem like valid criticisms; my town is different from your town and my null is different from your null.
Sure, no one should so gung-ho over so little information (although you seem to think that I am supposed to go gung-ho over so little information unless I'm not fully comprehending your read on me), but I don't think it's completely unreasonable to say that "avoiding going gung-ho" looks a hell of a lot like "staying neutral".

90 - Ask questions don't dismiss the read altogether because they haven't posted quotes. Kills discussion, stalls, game wastes time as people get together the posts they had in their head.

I don't understand how e not scumhunting the way that you wanted him to is equivalent to a scumread.

I can't tell between badtown and scum here butthose last posts are awful.

And this in particular seems like a ridiculous exaggeration; you think that calling someone who gave a scumlean neutral is awful?
Or do you think asking Franky to quote where he saw the "scum deja vu" quote before is awful?

[Nachomamma8]

You you think he's helpful town win the game?

What is this referring to? If you're trying to respond to a specific point, you can highlight the words that you want to respond to and press the quote button.

Do you feel no inclination to try to change this situation? Or do you think we can find scum by just waiting for them to Skip clearly?

There is a pretty wide gulf between "playing conservatively" and "sitting on my thumbs waiting for something interesting to happen". I didn't feel like I had to force-start this game because it seemed to be unfolding reasonably at a pace all of its own. Do you think that was unreasonable?

What is your current read on Parabola?
Where have you seen scum say "it's because of my meta, not because of my alignment" before?
Why didn't you answer these questions when they were initially asked?

[Nachomamma8]

1) He misremembered his own argument about why he's not scum. This implies he made it up on the fly to find a good response to earth, which is very scummy.

2) He was trying to paint me in a scummy light by implying I was misquoting him. This is also very scummy.

This is a bad attack; e's meaning was pretty clear, and even if you didn't get it the first time, he clarified in 112 and instead of reading his post, you dismissed it. You said that e saying "it's not due to my alignment, it's due to my meta" gave you scum deja vu, which implies that you've seen it before. E is telling you to link him to where you've seen it coming from scum before.

And e_is_cool what the hell even is 112? Show me where a scum has said this or it's not a scumtell? There are 1700ish completed games in Newbie forums. I'm sure if I dig through enough things scum has said I can make literally anything is a scumtell. That's terrible criteria and a terrible defence. And I really don't see the point in defending against a terrible argument that won't hold.

Franky's argument is that e_is_cool is scum for saying "that's due to my meta, not due to my alignment" because he's seen scum do it before. e is saying that he wants to see where Franky saw scum do it before. What does the number of Newbie games played on this site have to do with that argument?

Your argument that town shouldn't defend against an attack they think is horrible is nonsensical; your opinion on other people's posting shouldn't have anything to do with whether you respond to them or not because thoroughly refuting arguments is a very key part of getting people to evolve their reads. If you ignore them, they have no reason to change their read.

I'll just let you figure out what you're missing on your own. Not worth the time.

I will warn you that mafia games are generally pretty intense games and that statements far worse than "your push is stupid" are tossed around pretty frequently.

The neglection of this particular game makes me lean the latter.

Game-specific V/LAs in general are fraught with WIFOM, but I don't think that she would take a V/LA in this game and not others simply because she wanted to lurk the pressure off as scum.

I actually really dig Franky's switch to e, timing and mindset-wise
I won't follow but I like it

I agree.

2. To his point on Nacho, he's not saying much. He's debating the finer points of other people's logic but I don't see him doing anything that would make him Town.

Why is this a reason that you dislike Skold?
The argument seems to be that his point on me isn't anything revolutionary (and I agree), but I also don't see why that would be a point against him.

4. Very quick to TR Dirty Harry after he gets 2 quick votes. Looking for towncred if he ends up lynched maybe?

I don't think this is a strong point; I think the only way that Skold things that Dirty Harry is close to being lynched is if he's a weak reader of game flow, and I don't think that's the case.

[Nachomamma8]

What do you think Vecna is doing with the change in play?

[Nachomamma8]

Can't get followup from nacho without wagoning him?

Problem isn't the lack of posting, the problem is the lack of content within said posts.

This didn't answer Errant's question; Errant said that they already understood your point, but was asking specifically why you thought you needed to vote me in order to get followup from me.

Nacho posts that have any content at all are 31 32 and 76 and are mostly theory and easy to answer questions. In 31 he discusses RQS in 32 he discusses scumhunting techniques and in 76 (when the discussion has matured beyond this) he discusses RQS vs RVS. He hasn't contributed to the game despite being active.

I discussed RQS vs RVS because e implied that he was curious in the difference between them. Questions are content; Dirty Harry's original approach to e made it seem like he hadn't seen RQS before and was impressed by it in general and yet wasn't participating, which seemed like a contradiction between mindset and answers. His followup showed that he was experienced and thus probably knew that RQS was useless and instead his read was based on e's initiative despite being a new player, which is a reasonable enough perception. Franky's question to e seemed strange because it implied that there was something significant to be found on the first page, but I found his response that he thought it was weird e thought Harry couldn't have found anything on the first page to be reasonable enough. If you are arguing that the only valid form of content is conclusions, then you are wrong; questions help you understand mindsets and situations better, and a good early game should be far more centered around questioning than it should be centered around conclusions.

[Nachomamma8]

Quote tags usually look like this:

Code: Select all

[quote="Name"]This is a quote![/quote]

which means that if you don't have an equal number of opening quotes and closing quotes, you have the weird things that happened in your last two posts. If you're responding to specific statements, I'd suggest the highlighting and pressing quote thing that I live and die by.

[Nachomamma8]

My concern with Vecna's approach to the game right now is that it is limiting its communication pretty heavily; Vecna was pretty actively engaged in its last game, whereas in this game Vecna is certainly active, but is also apparently pushing a serious suspect that doesn't really appear to be a popular one but all of its reasons for pushing are lost in weird noises.

I understand that switching up playstyles and giving yourself a self-imposed post restriction in mafia can be entertaining, but I don't think that your current post restriction gives you the communication skills necessary to play effectively; would you mind choosing one that doesn't inhibit your speech so much?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm super duper hungover, hence my silence.

[Nachomamma8]

Welp.

Vote: Vecna

[Nachomamma8]

I was refering to the parabola conversation. Thought it was obvious considering it's your first point in that multiquote, and our only ongoing conversation at that moment. (I also made that post from my phone)

If your question is: if Parabola is town, do you feel that they will be helpful town and help us win the game? Then my answer would be fuck yeah Errant would be helpful town and win us the game. I'm not sure what your question was if it wasn't that, sorry.

I do not think what you just said is unreasonable. However, I do think being less active isn't the best play for town regardless of reasons.

I think that you're being too paranoid based on a couple of experienced players saying they are going to play differently than what you expect; I will still be active, I will still be gamesolving. The way in which I gamesolve will be different.

I think all the stuff between you and e seems to be pretty solidly worked out; did you want me to respond to anything else in that section?

[Nachomamma8]

And you didn't ask for a read, you asked why I'm asking about parabola, which I was going to answer after I finished inquiring about him. But it's good to know you were fishing for a read without asking clearly. Btw, do answer my last question about parabola, the one you didn't understand to whom it was referring.

I didn't ask for a read. Parabola did.

@Nacho your last post before this surge of activity was during a discussion in which you didn't contribute. I don't like that both Nacho and Parabola are playing deliberately conservatively I don't think it'll help and it does make me nervous but as long as there is something they're doing I won't take it further.

I don't think my #76 or #86 missed any significant conversation, but feel free to explain why you feel differently.

[Nachomamma8]

e has literally just been defending his meta right now

#30: Meta Defending + Soft Telling how scum should play
#34: Future Meta Defending + Covering Scums with WIFOM
#57: Still Trying to Defend his meta
#82: WIFOM'ing Self
#89: Wants to use My own Meta
#139: He's still trying to defend his Meta and is now trying to dismiss it
#146: Quotes Others to prove his point of his meta

Yeah I don't really get why people keep saying this guy is town

I'd agree that e has focused pretty heavily on defending himself.
I don't think that e would be the first new player who focused to heavily on defense when he gained a bit of heat.

[Nachomamma8]

Paranoia

What part of errant's post are you characterizing as "paranoia"?

Yeah, we get it - but it's not useful. You can do it as either scum or town, it's a null-read and totally pointless. It's not a defense, it's not scumhunting, it doesn't help anyone understand anything.

Agreed with this; the most important part of showing other people how you are town is not defending yourself against their points, but rather the genuine process by which you scumhunt; people see how you are solving this particular game, they see the heart and soul you are pouring into your view of the gamestate and they know that you're not faking it. Drop the defense, focus on determining the alignments of everyone else.

No.
I will hopefully address all notes by close of play.

As an aside, why did you switch your style? Not that it's of any particular importance or anything, just curious.

[Nachomamma8]

This seems weird to me when I didn't let Vecna get away with anything. In the gap between that post and and my last post on the Saturday Vecna hadn't broken my one more sheep post rule. Did you just not read that clearly or something? Or am I missing something here.

You said "Vecna, you have one more sheep post before you need to start doing things" and then Vecna made three. Am I missing something?

[Nachomamma8]

Scum-lean just isn't neutral. It isn't. And there is a massive difference between what I see a lot which is the self-processed geniuses claiming to have the pair 100% figured out by D1 and scum-leaning. That's what I consider to be the gung-ho read.

Your perspective over the "scumlean =/= neutral and that's it" is annoying. If, when I gave my reads list, the only read that I gave you was a scumlean, then you'd accuse me of not giving stances. This is a perfectly acceptable stance to have, and saying "scumleans =/= equal" is not really a rebuttal that's worth anything at all.

Okay so my current line of thinking is that either E is scum and was being townread by one of his scumbuddies or he's town and being pushed for an easy lynch.

Why?
I'm not really sure how what you're driving at with this particular piece of analysis; you think that either e is scum and a buddy is in the people who are townreading him (why?) or that he's town and scum is in the people pushing him (why?).

[Nachomamma8]

I was town town-reading harry at any point at all?

It doesn't actually make sense for you to thank Dirty Harry for giving scum WIFOM for saying that you being nightkilled wouldn't offer very many townreads unless you were townreading him previously (or as a result of that statement).

[Nachomamma8]

You said "Vecna, you have one more sheep post before you need to start doing things" and then Vecna made three. Am I missing something?

And between those sheep posts and this accusation I didn't post. You are missing something. That was it. The next post after those sheep posts was a vote on Vecna. Now. Is there something I'm ACTUALLY missing? Because I feel really stupid for some reason.

OK.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think that e would be the first new player who focused to heavily on defense when he gained a bit of heat.

He's clearly stating that he was never new to mafia. Only on mafiascum

If he was a pure newbie I'd be dismissing him already but for all that he's saying he has alot of experience under his belt

People having a lot of experience elsewhere doesn't always translate the same way experience on here or a mainstream site does. From what his descriptions sound like, it seems like he's used to playing mafia with a group of friends, which means that he's still spiritually a newbie.

[Nachomamma8]

We disagree. Get used to it.

We disagree. We both have different perspectives.
This means that both perspectives are valid; yours isn't the only and only way because you say so.

[Nachomamma8]

#255 was serious; I fucked up and I don't know why it didn't click before but it just didn't.

[Nachomamma8]

Whew. Okay, I can understand that then.

This is interesting. Could you rephrase TNE's argument in a way that makes more sense?
Like, okay, Dirty Harry is WIFOMing himself. What is he WIFOMing himself about?

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho - In a theory context because I've already made up my mind would anti-town play like Vecna's be a better lynch in your opinion than a scum-read. I understand it can be rather context dependent based on how disruptive it is and whether it is mixed with real posting but in general.

Lynching a scumread is better, every time. I've never encountered a player whose play is anti-town to such an extent where policy lynching them for the health of the game is the correct play; generally, people are trying to genuinely solve the game and won't completely fuck it over as a result. If they aren't, they're usually taken care of by game moderators or site moderators. Now, if you're in a position like mine where a player who is posting anti-town has a clear motivation for being anti-town, evidence that shows they aren't always anti-town, and they happen to be the lowest on your readslist, then they're a fine lynch. In other words, never lynch a player because they're being anti-town, but don't shy away from lynching them just because they're being anti-town. Does this make sense/is it the answer you were looking for?

[Nachomamma8]

I understand why, for the sake of civility, you might want to pretend that every perspective is equally accurate within any given situation. But I do genuinely view your perspective to be invalid. Scumleans aren't neutral and trying to paint them as such to me appears scummy. You can't expect me not to scumread based on that.

Your argument is that no one would paint a scumlean as neutral.
As a counter, I've presented to you that me (and other people from my experience) would be likely to paint a single scumlean as playing neutrally.
This means that either e or I are scum together, or that your argument is invalid.

It's fine in general to not subscribe to the reasoning that people who have expressed townleans or scumleans are playing neutrally, but the part that isn't fine is the part where you're arguing that it's scummy (because you don't think it's something people believe) when here I am telling you that it is telling you that it's something people believe.

Does that make sense?

[Nachomamma8]

@TNE:

I don't know where your tunnel on e is coming from; it looked like you formed a snap read and decided never to let go.

RQS is scummier than RVS based on gut, experience, and other things

It looks town really but most of it that I encounter are from scum. 80% of it. Its a really easy LAMIST play.

So yeah.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: e_is_cool

FoS is overrated anyways

First of all, I don't think that RQS is an effective approach to start the game. I also don't think it's a preference that's alignment-indicative; some people like to vote early and play aggressively, some don't. Some people like multiposting, some people like huge walls, some people don't like either. It's not indicative. The days on this site where RQS was something that could be regarded as "town" or "active and helpful" (thus making your LAMIST accusation make sense) are long, long gone, and they were long gone before you joined the site. As a result, the people who generally attempt to start a phase with RQS generally believe that it's a strong way to start the game (as demonstrated by people like Thesp who still live and die by it). I don't like that you say that it looks town (why did you think that looked town?) but 80% of the people you've encountered doing it have been scum (which is not something I can possibly imagine being close to true unless you've played a really weird subsection of games), but I especially dislike that something so meaningless as RQS has served as the centerpiece of your case against e.

"RQS is town you're scum because you dont agree with e"

This is why you think that people voted for you, apparently. This reads like a hallucination; no one voted you for anywhere close to these reasons. I don't understand how you got to this if you actually read people's reasoning for voting you in any significant way at all, which is a problem because it shows that you're just blindly pushing. Gun to my head, I'd say that it's more likely that this blind pushing nonsense comes from you as town as opposed to you as scum (I don't think you think you could sell this bullshit to the players in general as scum), but this is one of those gigantic red flashing lights announcing that you are in a tunnel and you need to get the fuck out; you could be right, granted, but if you're right, then you will still find yourself coming back if you decide to come up for air for a little bit.

e has literally just been defending his meta right now

#30: Meta Defending + Soft Telling how scum should play
#34: Future Meta Defending + Covering Scums with WIFOM
#57: Still Trying to Defend his meta
#82: WIFOM'ing Self
#89: Wants to use My own Meta
#139: He's still trying to defend his Meta and is now trying to dismiss it
#146: Quotes Others to prove his point of his meta

Yeah I don't really get why people keep saying this guy is town

And in a vacuum, this would be a decent case. In a vacuum, if e was repeatedly given opportunities to post and he simply continuously squandered them, you'd be 100% correct and I'd be as adamant in the e wagon as you are. However, when your entire posting history is pushing them, it only seems natural that his entire posting history would be defending himself; every time he logs onto the game, he sees someone that is absolutely convinced that he is scum and he doesn't know why and the natural response is to try to turn that read around since people hate not to be trusted or believed and the ability to push back against that feeling and find scum is something that everyone has instantly.

[Nachomamma8]

Skold, I'll give a full reads list before the end of the day in order to clarify where I'm standing on people in the middle, but I won't before then.

[Nachomamma8]

And I'm not touching the scumlean-neutrality debate anymore because it wastes time and it was a mistake to start it.

Do you understand the point that I'm making about it?

[Nachomamma8]

You won't do it before, before the end of the day? So at 11:59 pm? Or do you mean the game day? Where did I ask for a full reads list? I'm hella confused by that post.

You asked for reads. I'll give a reads list before the end of the game day, which should satisfy your request for reads.

I still don't buy that town wouldn't even do a little scumhunting independent of this argument.

E did do a little scumhunting outside of the excessive self-defense in his attacks on TNE and his attacks on Dirty Harry.

[Nachomamma8]

BTW: I remember why I remember you Nacho. You were in Choose Your Own Role mafia. I'm off to read that now.

I imagine you didn't draw any definitive conclusions.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho's fence sitting is actually really stupid as fuck

Also if Vecna is actually town then he's the worse lynch bait ever

Lynch Priority is: e > harry > Nacho > Vecna

I haven't actually "fence sat".
My preference for a lynch is Vecna. I disagree with your e case and I explained why. Why didn't you respond?

Nacho, e has expressed concern about something that you posted, multiple times. Do you know what it is? Are you consciously ignoring it (which, by the way, I can understand why you'd do that if you're town) or did you miss it (which I can also understand)? If I'm missing your response to this, please point me to where you responded?

I'm ignoring it. I understand the point he's driving at (I mentioned that I'd be more likely to bus and thus maybe could go against it), but the reasons I'm more likely to bus after bringing up that specific meta are more complicated than "I said I don't bus, thus the value of bussing increases". I'm guessing you caught onto that and that's why you're okay with me ignoring it as town?

[Nachomamma8]

I'll be back in the morning.

[Nachomamma8]

I've skimmed Vecna's posting, will respond in full when I'm more awake and more sober.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll be around soon, so holding off on hammer until I'm fully caught up would be preferred.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho and Parabola, I want to hear from both of you - You both stated you were back at the last day of D1. Both of you stated you were catching up and would respond, yet neither of you participated at all, didnt write a single other msg (except for the one fluff piece from parabola), and neither of you took part in the vote whatsoever.

What gives, explain yourselves.

I think you're missing context here - Franky ended up quick hammering before I had the chance to catch up properly.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho why was your vote on Vecna? Did you not buy him saying it was a reaction test, why do you think scumVecna would do this and in general, ''what gives, explain yourselves''. You said you'd do a catchup specifically on Vecna so I'm interested to see if you still think he's scum.

I haven't done much more than skim through his posts but he does look quite a bit townier than he did before.

[Nachomamma8]

before I had the chance to catch up properly.

Nacho we had delayed forever. If you hadn't caught up that's on you.

This is unreasonable and a response that applies to Vecna as well.
If I knew that I only had three hours to catch up when I thought I had 7, then I would have caught up in three. Telling me that I should have somehow known that Franky would quickhammer and caught up in a shorter amount of time as a result is ???.

[Nachomamma8]

The only thing that my notes say is basically letting me in the future know that I was actually lying to you about being okay with you ignoring as town. But I don't know why I wasn't okay with it, so let's call it a wash because I can't figure it out going back and that probably means it's not a strong enough feeling to be important.

How would you have addressed it in my shoes?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think you're scum, this just doesn't make sense from that kind of motivation to on the spot invent a new kind of silly read in order to push a bad lynch but I don't think this makes a single kind of sense.

Why were you townreading Parabola as of this post?

[Nachomamma8]

Alright I guess it is about time to put an end to my reaction test. although there finally has come some response to my playstyle in the last few pages, i'm still fairly disappointed by the overall response that it has gathered. Not a lot of thought or discussion went into any votes that were coming my way, although I guess with this type of baiting its somewhat understandable.

TLDR explanation as to "Vecna whyyyy": I like unusual strategies and I like to analyze the way people respond to it. In nearly all my games I play where I try this it usually results in some proper scum baiting and I get a lot better reads of the scum team as a result. I like to think I usually do a reasonable job in deducing the insincerity in people their votes, and separate the town motivated pressure from the scum looking for an easy lynch. Besides the reads, its usually a good tactic to avoid the NK since scum are less likely to NK a higher likelyhood lynch candidate. I do not like dying too much in these games, and living on the edge is usually the best way to avoid it.

It seems weird that you didn't actually get any significant conclusions from your reaction test; in your Earth case, you don't really analyze any of his intentions based on how he approached your wagon and I'm not really sure what type of things you would expect to get out of it. How, for example, do you analyze the intent behind a vote like mine? What do you think I do as scum? What do you think I do as town? How are townies more likely to approach your wagon? How are scum?

The explanation for your approach that makes the most sense to me is the idea that you're doing it so that you can delay your death a bit longer, even though this is a very unhealthy approach for a game in general; you seem like a capable enough player to understand why that's a bad approach, so why possess it?

[Nachomamma8]

Appears to be towny to me so far and trying to solve the game. Will be interesting to see how he responds to me suddenly posting after having had somewhat of a hardon for me so far.

Earlier you said you thought I looked like I was trying to solve the game.
Now that you say that my posting is all just IC blather.
What caused the change?

[Nachomamma8]

@RB after last game I have no faith in town players in these games to do the proper actions even if I spew out the correct reads. Last game I was also very close but noone listened regardless. What youre doing is very anti-town now yourself since youre pretty much stating im probably town, but youre spite-lynching me and risking the mislynch just because you dont approve of people doing anything but the standard boring crap.

Stating im an "idiot" just because you dont like certain strategies is shortsighted to say the least. At any rate my reads are probably far superior to any town player thinking theyre oh so awesome this game, and the methods always justify the means.

This looks pretty town though.

[Nachomamma8]

It amazes me though that your solution to this is, instead of being a strong player and using your perceptions and ability to read - you do a reaction test. Snore. The ends don't really justify the means because the game isn't about just finding the scum-team it's about being able to get people lynched.

And, yes, this is actually IC blather, but I very strongly agree with this.

If you are truly a strong town player, then you will find ways to work with any group; when people aren't seeing what you're seeing, then it means that there's an opportunity to improve the way that you approach the game and convince people of things, that maybe you can listen to people's points and actually refute them as a whole or maybe the reasons you're reading people aren't all that convincing and really it's just your gut's that's on and etc. Calling the town dumb is avoiding taking responsibility for weakness in your own play, and if you try to lean on reaction tests and gimmicks to make up for those weaknesses then there will always be that gaping hole in your play.

[Nachomamma8]

That is just THE SINGLE MOST IDIOTIC REACTION TEST I HAVE SEEN TO DATE

You know. The thing is. The reasons behind it are stupid

First of all, you waste half the fucking day shitposting NOT CONTRIBUTING ANYTHING BUT HUUURRRSS AND DUUURRRS and you "expect" that to be a reaction test? In what universe... And I heavily state, A KNOWN UNIVERSE is this actually a thing? Oh you know what? ITS THIS UNIVERSE COMPILED OF STUPID PEOPLE like you

Secondly, You literally just stopped doing it DURING L-1. AGAIN, WASTING HALF THE FUCKING DAY, LET 4 PLAYERS PLAY THE GAME WHEN YOU COULD HAVE BEEN THE ODD 5th TO END IT ALL.

Third, #322 is actually complete bullshit. He's misreping everything to a fault "After saying the stupidity was a reaction test". Guess what, IF YOU ACTUALLY DIDN'T BECOME THE EASIEST LYNCHBAIT IN MS HISTORY NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED

And, for the record, this is what happens when you don't take responsibility for your own mistakes; can't say that this was a bad mislynch and certainly was not a wagon I would have avoided had I been fully caught up.

[Nachomamma8]

Vecna, do you prefer to be referred to as "it" or do are you okay with other pronouns?

[Nachomamma8]

Right so Vecna likes the unexplained vote on TNE from Franky, claims it was ''just a prank'' and scumreads TNE for being the most cautious to not act with his wagon and for being ''under the radar'' when in one of the most inactive games I have ever played she has been one of the few who give it some activity. If this is town play it may just be the most anti-town town play ever. If you're town Vecna here is what you have done 1. Guarantee your lynch. You are dying today. This is happening. 2. Waste a day for town 3. Discredit all reads you have because regardless of whether they come from a town perspective they would come from a town perspective with no bloody clue. I almost want to believe him. But I don't. These last minute reads, making the worst case possible against TNE and claiming it was a reaction test....no. I just don't buy it.

Vote: Vecna

L-1 N shit. Someone int to hammer this. I'm off for a couple hours don't lynch till I'm back.

First of all, Vecna liked the TNE vote from Franky. It also qualified that like with saying that the fact Franky's vote was unexplained weakened that like and scum leaving their vote on a partner like that was something that Vecna had seen in the past. It's case on TNE was also a hell of a lot more than her just being under the radar; Vecna picked up on the weird pushing of e and doing absolutely nothing else (which was also something that I disliked), and it also picked up on a lack of townreads. It also criticized the content of TNE's pushes, but you boiled all of that down to "cautious not to act with his wagon" (which, again, wasn't its point) and for being "under the radar". Why?

I'm also pretty skeptical of your reaction to Vecna in general; whereas RB seemed pretty genuinely pissed off at Vecna's behavior and obviously wasn't reading him as town at all, this post reads like you're really really close to believing him, but you're going to lynch him anyways for reasons that I don't really grasp. Could you clear this up for me?

[Nachomamma8]

Also, for those that keep claiming that these type of reaction tests are bad and anti-town, and can never work - Let me present you the two following links. I know you will not read them, but theyre just meant to make a little point:

http://webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?threa ... 06#1372206 - I hardclaimed a PR role right out of the gates. Mafia tried to lynch me asap, I filter out 2 scum straight away and we end up lynching scum D1.

Maniac's posting in general was scummy as hell; he couldn't fake a genuine thought outside of the you-claim business; literally the only thing that looked even okay from him was his posting made complaining about your claim. You also managed to somehow drag jamiet down from universal townread to scummy scum, claim business gave Ghug a way to hide pretty solidly, and the reactions you should have picked up on (Jamiet and OB's responses specifically) you didn't really lock down until later. I don't understand why you were scumreading Teacon in the way you were, but that was also a flaw of your reaction test; if done correctly, sure, reaction testing can be a pretty effective way to shake up a boring gamestate and make things happen, but it's best done when it's done sparingly.

[Nachomamma8]

Rb - is my only town read.

Only town read?
This seems... excessively paranoid. Got anything else today?

[Nachomamma8]

I decided to reread my yesterday interaction with Skold:

Question:

What I'm curious about is why you don't see that earth has been acting very scummy too?

Answer: None.

My thoughts: The fact that Skold didn't answer this by just saying he did notice it feels like he's ignoring a reference to his scum buddy.

Question:

are you going to pretend you didn't notice until this very moment that Earth haven't been answering ANY questions since beginning of game?

Answer:

Just took a cheeky wee tour of your ISO. None of those were worth answering. Probably slipped into the back of my mind because those weren't questions actually worth bothering with. ''Does RQS have to be scum or town'' - why would anybody waste time with this. Especially after an IC wall on the theory of RQS.

My thoughts:

• Can't understand why my ISO is important. Several people asked TNE questions, and I specifically capsed the word ANY so that Skold understands I'm not only talking about my questions. Skold ignores this and finds a way to not answer the question.
  
• Skold chose the one question that is meant rhetorically as an example for my questions not being worth the time, and frames it in a redundant light when it was a response to the very post that was right before it from TNE, which was TNE's subtle attempt to associate me with E_is_cool when I voted her before him with a bs RVS reason and D1 hasn't even started yet when she made that post.
  
• He also somehow misses the opportunity to comment on the most pointless of my questions, which is a plain question about TNE's age that came out of nowhere.

Is it a coincidence that you only started addressing this after I asked you why you didn't notice earth has been acting scummy?

Answer: None.

My thoughts: He probably ignored this because he has noticed she's been acting scummy and he's an arrogant prick. Or because it's an inconvenient question that he can paint as dumb. Notice that Skold would have motivation to ignore this even if Earth isn't his scum buddy as it would frame him as someone who isn't putting effort into getting reads.

Why did you avoid answering that question yourself when you're going to join earth's wagon for not answering question btw?

Answer:

I could go through all of these but these questions weren't directed at me.

My thoughts: This makes me think slightly that he mistook my reference to him not answering my first question to him not answering the questions I asked TNE, but I quickly realize that would be an incredibly dumb assumption to make because I phrased it as "that question", so there was no possible mistake. This is his second attempt to misrep what I'm saying, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt once more and try to question him on these things. I also don't see why he would miss that I'm pointing out his hippocracy over ignoring questions when he's dissing Earth for exactly the same thing.

Question:

If your opinion is that she isn't acting scummy, why did you ignore my question about that fact instead of criticizing the reasons I have for voting her, which I've also been displaying since the beginning of D1?

Answer:

1. Never said she wasn't scummy, said your case sucked.

My thoughts: I start my sentence with "if" and he assumes I think he said anything clearly... And why is he narrowing down my case against Earth to the only thing that he addressed which is her not answering questions?

Question:

Forget the beginning of D1, why aren't you scumhunting me like your life depends on it right now?

Answer:

2. I am scumreading you because you've shown weird interactions with Vecna (I'll quote below in a second) and because this case is really bad.

My thoughts: He literally answers me asking him why he isn't scumhunting me by confirming that he's scumreading me............................... WTF?!

Question:

And let's suppose for a second that you know for a fact my questions have no value, which you don't btw because only I know why I asked any question, why are you ignoring all the questions earth ignored that aren't in my ISO?

Answer:

3. Because I only read your ISO because I'm not here to dismantle your case on TNE I'm here to decide if it's scummy

My thoughts: I would say Fair enough if I had short term memory, but I don't and I remember that he was criticizing my statement that

she didn't answer anyone's questions

.... and his phrasing sounded like an attempt to frame me as scum, so this answer is another load of convenient horse shit.

Question:

Which part of my posts gave you the impression that I'm only scum reading her for avoiding to answer my own questions?

Answer:

4. Never said that

My thoughts: Then how the hell will you decide if my case is scummy if you don't look at the rest of my case?!!!!!! the horse shit stench is getting stronger.

Question:

And why would you interpret "Does RQS have to be scum or town" as anything other than a rhetorical way of showing the flaw in earth's reasoning about e_is_cool?

Answer:

5. IDK why it's a bad question, it's a bad question. And most of your questions read like they're impossible to be answered because they read like they don't fit in this thread.

My thoughts: Horse Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!

Question:

Why did you have no issues with earth trying to frame e_is_cool in the beginning by deliberately ignoring the subtleties of everyone's criticism of her read on him? Like seriously, you're the only one mate.

Answer:

6. I do have problems with TNE's argument against e_is_cool. I made my own case, read my ISO or don't even talk about what my stances are.

My thoughts: Ok this one is 100% my bad, but I'm glad I made this mistake because it helped give him an excuse to use the stupid argument again and resulted in this bonus answer.

Bonus answer:

Overall: WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS? WHAT THE ACTUAL CRAP FRANKY? Like seriously, why do you think TNE didn't answer these questions? Because of my post here. I'm not responding to you anymore this is stupid.

My thoughts: Me making a mistake about the reaction to earth voting e_is_cool in the beginning can be put aside for a moment, but why is he getting so worked up over something he could have pointed out as an answer to my very first question? And why is calling that one reference to TNE being wrong and one other vague statement that he's "not liking TNE" a case? Why is he over exploiting my mistake and blowing it out of proportion? And if by any distant chance he's town, why is he acting so chocked that someone he scum read in this very post would be misreping him?

Question:

1) Where are these quotes? And why aren't you pursuing your scum read on me? Is it because I said I'll be revising my read on you?

Answer:

1. Had a look into it and it basically hinges on Vecna being scum. Since upon actually thinking I concluded there is no way scum would do this for at best 2 for 1 me and TNE for himself and only a slight chance of TNE and Vecna both being scum with TNE being the bus to confirm Vecna so working from that assumption is stupid.

Vecna is most likely town

, we'll just have to see if his strat is worth thinking about in future games or is just a gimmick that works occasionally.

My thoughts: I like my explanation better. He was overloading me with horse shit because my questions struck a nerve, and he took my first slip and used it to get me to back down instead of scumreading me for it, and as soon as I backed down I became town in his eyes, because I was always town in his eyes. And why is his vote still on Vecna if he miraculously thinks they are town now?

Question:

2) You state you're scum reading me, and then you react like there could be no scum motivation behind me misreping you? In the same post?!!!

Answer:

2. ''react like there could be no scum motivation behind me misreping you'' I didn't say that. Or act like it. I said ''where are you getting this'' because the questions sucked regardless of alignment. How does saying your questions suck imply I don't think you're scum? Franky's questions are being very surface level and not telling whatsoever. IDK if he's getting want he wants from them but I don't like this behavior.

My thoughts: He did act like it.

VOTE: Skold

I have a lot of catching up to do various places today so won't be diving into this wall right now.
However, I will say that when you're making a case against someone you want to make it in a way where your main point (the most compelling reason why the person you're voting is scum) is able to be parsed fairly easily; it's a good chunk of effort to actually go through your points here and a vast majority of players won't put in the time to do it.

That being said, while I haven't followed up on this post properly, I have read it and anyone who isn't townreading Franky after this post should probably read the post again and fix their reads; remember that Franky already had a pretty large fleshed-out case against mislynch TNE and had absolutely no reason to tilt Skold with a post like this, and that the conviction and frustration demonstrated in this post about how Skold is interacting with him is not something I've ever seen from anyone but exceptionally gifted scum players.

[Nachomamma8]

I feel like we need Nacho and Parabola interacting in real time at some point today before deadline.

I have a feeling your wish will come true today.

[Nachomamma8]

So I spend 2 hours presenting a case against someone and people don't even want to read it....

I don't even know what to think of this. Getting tempted to ask Ircher to replace me.

I read this frustration as town-indignation.

Didn't even catch this on top of the big post.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho you know that question I asked you about why you were ignoring e's Wifom accusation? I'm really sorry, but my notes don't actually make clear the intention behind that question. The only thing that my notes say is basically letting me in the future know that I was actually lying to you about being okay with you ignoring as town. But I don't know why I wasn't okay with it, so let's call it a wash because I can't figure it out going back and that probably means it's not a strong enough feeling to be important.

Why are you town-leaning me?
I felt pretty good about it earlier but I also think that I was viewing the thread pretty negatively based on all of the immediate "you're not doing enough, you're not doing enough" at the start of the day and that probably plays into it; I don't think that my play this game has been revolutionary in any sense of the world or outside of my scum-range so I don't actually understand why you're reading me as town if you're town. If you're scum, I can see you take this type of approach; there's a low chance that I'm going to get mislynched this game barring weird LyLo shenanigans, and you'd know better than most that a weak "he's not doing anything!" push isn't going anywhere.

Vote: Parabola

[Nachomamma8]

I will read into Skold when I read into Franky's big post in the near future; I understand that e is cool seems to be the popular suspect for the day for not really doing anything but I'd like to see him get a chance to breathe/get replaced.

[Nachomamma8]

Day2, you state that this skimming showed that I suddenly was a lot more towny. So why, if this skimming had already happened way earlier, did your vote stay on me?

Skimming posts isn't equivalent to reading through them; I planned to move my vote from you after I actually read through your posts in depth. Managing to look townier than doing nothing but making sheep noises isn't exactly an accomplishment and I wasn't exactly ready to clear you just because you were doing things at the very last minute.

Also, why were you so insistent to hold off on your full reads list untill the very end of EOD? Seems quite convenient to hold off on it for so long, and then for it to never happen because someone finally hammered it with only 4 hours to go.

I wasn't insistent. I said that I would give my full reads list at the very EoD because I planned on playing this game more conservatively than usual; no one pressed me to give my reads list before then, and I'm sure that you of all people can see the value in holding off on sharing your full reads until later in the day.

This is why I changed my opinion on you, and it needs some answers.

Your original case on me looked pretty different from this; why not bring this up with your original push?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not going to post any real content today.
If I don't get my shit together by tomorrow, I'll replace out.

[Nachomamma8]

This also demonstrates Nachomamma8's detachment to the nature of D1.

It demonstrates my experience moreso than it expresses any sort of detachment (the only evidence you need to see for me being detached is activity, which is not the type of thing that is tied in too closely for players who don't possess noticeably lowered confidence levels/competence levels/interest levels as either alignment).

My interaction was less "you only have one townread? my god!" and more challenging you to push more townreads; you can't actively win a game unless you close some doors and open others, and only having one townread that you're willing to invest yourself is more of a player problem over an environment problem in an overwhelming majority of circumstances at an end of D1 at Mafiascum.

[Nachomamma8]

I sort of agree with you that of the lurkers he feels least scummy so far.

At this point, who do you categorize as "the lurkers."

e, parabola, and nacho?

Yes, with lurkers I meant the people that I found very suspicious for the EOD stuff at the end of D1 (the three names you mentioned). Nacho has had a spurt of activity again today, but I still see him as part of the group of people I suspect of being scum.

However, I also find it very unlikely that both scum just decided to go full on lurker mode since that cant really be a winning strategy, so my gut tells me I should probably also be revisiting my other townreads and townleans some more today.

You forgot to follow up with my latest wall; did you get distracted by reaction testing Loopdan?

[Nachomamma8]

I hate myself for having to make this post, because I haven't replaced out of a game for a year

Mod, replace me out.

I'm really sorry. I'm dealing with pretty important life things, dealing with work, and dealing with a pretty terrible illness at the same time.

Don't hate yourself here; you did a good thing here.

[Nachomamma8]

Theory shit for Nacho/IC replacement - Thoughts on reading someone through the slot's predecessor's actions.

Read whichever person in the slot that you feel you can read the best.
For example, Franky's slot looked pretty town, Loopdan maintains a pretty strong townread as a result.

[Nachomamma8]

Vecna goes back on chopping board for not voting me for terrible townread? Jesus Christ people if you don't want to become bacon give me something.

I don't understand why you'd suddenly suspect Vecna for not voting you for one weak townread - earlier, you said you didn't understand the scum mindset for his Day 1 play; has that changed? Why wouldn't scum vote a townie who made a mistake?

[Nachomamma8]

For the record, where I'm standing today:

ALWAYS TOWN: Dirty Harry, Loopdan
LEANING TOWN: Vecna, (much weaker) E
SCUM (?): Parabola, Skold

I'm interested in getting a replacement in the slot since the replacement will almost certainly be easier to read than someone with a scumgame as strong as Parabola's. I keep wanting to read Skold as town, but then he keeps doing questionable things and dragging my read of him down. I think that it's a mistake to clear Vecna for lurking D1 and then producing content by EoD; the reaction test would be an admirable enough scum move but it's nowhere near impossible. I haven't reread E's posts in depth yet, been hoping that he'd produce something relatively soon in order to strengthen my convictions on the slot.

[Nachomamma8]

Claiming you never got around to it because someone finally hammered with only 4 hours left to go is nonsense.

Let's say Nacho is a student of Vecna's.
Vecna assigns a three page paper to Nacho and says it is due in two weeks at 3:00 PM. Nacho avoids working on the paper until later because he has work that is larger and scarier and he knows writing the paper won't take him longer than an hour (he's already mostly done with the prep work). At 11 AM, Vecna refuses to accept any more papers and gives Nacho (who hasn't yet begun working on his paper) a 0. Do you see why this is problematic?

[Nachomamma8]

V/LA until Friday

This weekend is very likely to be a "catch up in all mafia games and other sort of stuff" type of weekend; setting aside tomorrow in order to make that possible.

[Nachomamma8]

What if Nacho is not a student but mafia.
Vecna assigns a three page paper to Nacho and says it is due in two weeks at 3:00 PM.
Nacho avoids working on the paper because he wants to see thenewearth misslynched.
At 11 AM, Vecna refuses to accept any more papers and gives Nacho a 0.
Do you see why this is problematic?



We only get judged on what we do in the moment.
Timing.

There is no reason why I would avoid commenting on TNE's play as scum if I wanted to see him mislynched; he was playing poorly, he did a bunch of things that had fairly obvious scum motivation, that means that I could push and I could have a reasonable push and that's content that I'm producing. Yes, I said I would have a reads list by the end of the day and I didn't have a reads list by the end of the day but the reason that ended up happening should be incredibly obvious to anyone that's reading context.

Outside of his D1 gameplan, I feel like Vecna and I are on the same wavelength on many posts/players.
This is usually a personal town-tell for me.
He is not today's lynch.

It seems more like you're townreading Vecna for being one of the few players to not frustrate you in an intense way as opposed to anything more significant than that.

Claiming you never got around to it because someone finally hammered with only 4 hours left to go is nonsense.

Let's say Nacho is a student of Vecna's.
Vecna assigns a three page paper to Nacho and says it is due in two weeks at 3:00 PM. Nacho avoids working on the paper until later because he has work that is larger and scarier and he knows writing the paper won't take him longer than an hour (he's already mostly done with the prep work). At 11 AM, Vecna refuses to accept any more papers and gives Nacho (who hasn't yet begun working on his paper) a 0. Do you see why this is problematic?

This analogy only works if the school has a known policy that due dates can be shortened at anytime by the public votes of a majority of students.

And one of those students said "hey, don't shorten the due date, I'm currently working on my paper as we speak" - should I have expected Franky to quickhammer there?

28 DH is kinda wordy.

How is being wordy indicative of alignment?

literally everything on this page is just clearing up misunderstandings and/or TNE related. Actually it's kinda weird everyone going after TNE for ostensibly implying a scumread was Town when 206 from DH actually looks much scummier IMO but I do have the benefit of hindsight.
ftr post 206 has DH tell his scumlean that they might get nightkilled.

I don't think that the scumread was town implication was all that scummy (although it seemed weird at the time). I don't think that implying that a scumread might get nightkilled is particularly scummy when he didn't imply that him getting nightkilled was probable; do you?

This looks like a fake townslip. @Everyone else: do you also think this looks like a fake townslip?

I'm having trouble grasping why on earth you would think that this is a legitimate line of attack.

In the quote I referred to as looking like a fake townslip, you imply that you think TNE was NK'd. TNE was not NK'd. TNE was lynched. You have previously demonstrated correct usage of these terms. You have previously demonstrated precise knowledge of the events of this game.
The picture is very clear, despite your attempt here to muddy it.

Why would DH as scum who is universally townread, attempt to fake a townslip here? Why would the townslip he faked be "oh, I thought TNE got nightkilled?" when he was a universal scumread D1 and Harry was obviously engaged enough in the game to realize that he was lynched and not nightkilled? I don't think that your perspective on this vote shows that you're critically thinking and it sure as hell doesn't look like a genuine push to me.

I need Nacho's reactions to my implications more than you need to know what they are right now. Patience.

I've missed your implications, but I'll reread your posts shortly to find if there's anything significant that I'm missing.

Four words.
goodmorning is bad town.

Goodmorning is not a bad town player in any sense of the word; assuming that she's town because she's making a strong push on a townie when there are easier pushes to make is a mistake when her push doesn't make any sort of the sense. At the end of a day, if you look at a player's actions and divorce those actions from their reasoning, you will end up with bad reads an overwhelming majority of the time.

loopdan you're going to need to explain that

This.

[Nachomamma8]

Thoughts on Dirty Harry:

28 is Dirty Harry's response to the e_is_cool challenge asking him why he asked me how I expected scum to interact this game. On an entirely surface level, I find the question about interactions to be slightly more likely to be coming from town than scum; very rarely do I see scum asking me how I plan to catch them in this game simply because it's an awkward question to ask, most people are afraid to ask a question that could get them heat like that. I see possible motivation for him asking that question as either alignment and although it's been a while, I'd still be interested in what he was looking for (if anything) when he asked it in the first place. On a level that's something other that's entirely surface, I liked the depth of his response to e_is_cool; it would have been fairly simple to dismiss the question as dumb or use it as a weak point to attack him with, but Harry instead townreads e for being willing to take a strong stance on him early and I find that to be a pretty natural reaction.

Dirty Harry scumreading TNE for "neglecting this particular game" in 78 looks pretty town in that he put in extra research early (TNE was posting like crazy in other games at the time) but never mentioned that this was something he did and didn't capitalize on the point overly hard; this seems much more likely to be how town would approach the situation than how scum would approach the situation. For one, I'm not sure that scum would think of looking to check to see if a player is posting elsewhere during their VLA and for two, if they did somehow think to do that, I'd imagine they'd make a much bigger deal out of it than a throwaway comment like that.

This isn't really a Dirty Harry point, but I don't see how his snapshot of Faalcon's readslist was unreasonable. The only real read that Faalcon provided was that he thought e_is_cool was town which is nice and all but isn't exactly something I'd expect a newer player to pick up on immediately.

I liked his push of Skold's townread of him in 123; I don't think this is how a player who was scumread by quite a number of players at that point reacts to a townread on him, and find his observations on Skold and me in 128 to be pretty sensible, and the one accusing Skold of automatically assuming Franky is town is one that seems like a different tact than most scum take normally.

I'd be pretty impressed if Dirty Harry decided to sneak something like this in one of his posts:

Currently thinking: it will be hard to lynch Nacho.

191 is also part of what I think bothers goodmorning about him having a fairly cautious playstyle and not a whole lot of townreads, but this is an example of Harry having plenty of reads and simply hesitating in what to push. I don't think that this is scummy (he's willing to put his neck out to call quite a number of players scummy and has understandable reasoning for all of it); I think it's more a matter of playstyle. I think this is something that GM has the ability to recognize.

The difference between Harry's "If you are nightkilled..." and TNE's "Thanks for giving scum some WIFOM" is first of all, the difference in conviction; Dirty Harry brings up the possibility that TNE will get nightkilled, TNE suggests that Harry gave scum the chance to make a kill that could harm the town further. At no point in the game did Harry act that there were no other worlds than ones where TNE was scum whereas TNE acted like his E/Harry team was the scumteam wrapped with a bow, and thus it makes sense why the strong flip would be more widely scumread than TNE's. Why did you think that Harry's was scummier @goodmorning?

Harry's early town-read of ErrantParabola for translating their theory on surface-level town to Skold seems genuine and deep to me; again, not really a townread that I think scum would possess.

His 449 reads good to me tonally.

I thought that his opening to Day 2 looked pretty strongly town; he presented a very strong push to solve the game and get contributions from people. Again, his e_is_cool read (reading him as town for a complete lack of survival to survive the next day after it looked like scum motivation for D1 play was simply to live one more day) was more in depth reasoning that's protecting a pretty obvious mislynch target - I think that it was, again, more likely to be coming from town, and I especially like how he expressed how frustrated he is without pushing them as a scumread; it is incredibly easy to tie together frustration with someone's play with your scumread of them and add a genuine edge to your push; Harry isn't doing that at all and that's a pretty positive point in my book.

Posts like 509 are again are posts that I townread pretty heavily even though the logic supporting those townreads seems pretty silly; am surprised that goodmorning hasn't brought anything like that into account.

I liked him questioning Loopdan about how he thought different people contributed to TNE's mislynch to see if he would correctly slot in Dirty Harry (a universal townread) as someone who contributing to the TNE indirectly was an interesting approach, and, again, not an angle that he would adopt as scum.

I liked him telling Skold that he would be pushing him tomorrow in 598; another post that looks good tonally.

I don't think that Dirty Harry's response to Goodmorning's push on him looks anything like scum; there's good conviction, there's a great deal of frustration and confidence in attacking to the push in kind. I don't see panic. I don't see where he's skated on giving opinions this game. I don't think that there is a very good chance that he's scum at all.

[Nachomamma8]

Being overly wordy can be an attempt to keep people from reading your posts too closely.

Can be an attempt to keep people from reading your posts too closely, but it's much more common that wordiness is more linked to playstyle than it is to anything else. If Dirty Harry had nothing but impenetrable walls that droned on forever and ever, then I would be more willing to buy into your post, but his style is perfectly accessible and is nothing near the likes of Bulbazak, Skullduggery, or VoidedMafia walls. Where are a few specific examples of points that he's made that you think demonstrate him being overly wordy to stop people from reading his posts too closely?

I'm having trouble grasping why you didn't provide an explicit opinion.

No, it's obviously not a fake townslip. Harry has alluded to the TNE

lynch

upwards of 10, 20 times. Scum don't try to fake a townslip after they've demonstrated knowledge of it upwards of 10, 20 times. The point that he was making was not "I was right that TNE was going to be nightkilled", it was that "I was right that TNE should have provided more information to help us down the road".

I'm not sure how you mistook "what you are doing is not a legitimate attack" as anything other than "I don't agree with this push".

Your argument that you forced him to making a fake townslip is a bit ridiculous. I mean, look at it from Dirty Harry's perspective. He's universally townread, he's scum. Someone replaces into the game, and makes a case on him. He goes "holy shit, she's scumreading me, I need to do something to get townread! Let's fake a townslip pretending that TNE was nightkilled even though that I was demonstrated that I was aware he got lynched YESTERDAY.". Yes, going from universally townread to one player scumreading you is a big fall, but not one so significant that you would feel the need to fake a townslip to get them off of you, and, again, this is something I'd expect you to be completely aware of if you were town.

I'm not sure why you want me to respond to the Vecna line of reasoning that Earth is to blame for his own mislynch; I think that Vecna seems like the type of player who would probably have trouble accepting responsibility for mislynching. Do you think that it's a scummy line of thought or do you mean to say that I'm doing a bad job as IC by not correcting it?

[Nachomamma8]

I will go through the points/players he is pushing that I agree with if you would like.

I would like this.
I'd also like to hear your opinion on his e_is_cool push, since that is a place where your opinions differ.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think it's likely that scum!goodmorning replaces in and goes all-in on a player who is town-read by most other players... unless it is distancing, which would be SvS. But I read DH as town, so it's likely TvT. I've considered it could be scum!goodmorning's attempt to distract from her partner's wagon, but busing seems like a better option in these circumstances.

I agree that replacing into the game and tunneling the towniest player is more likely to be an action coming from town than scum. However, the reasons why goodmorning is pushing Harry as scum don't really seem like reasons that she'd subscribe to as town, and while it's completely possible that scum would make a strange play in order to go for some "mafia wouldn't do that" cred, it's hard to see goodmorning as town making a push like this without copious drinking being involved somewhere.

I'm also not sure I like how she's tried to read me this game; she dismissed me as town early based on a single post that I've made and then seems to be trying to strengthen her read through a series of weird looking reaction test-esque ways that I don't really understand, but this is a far less important point than "goodmorning wouldn't be sincerely pushing Harry here if town".

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho 706: That's not what I expected, given 1305.

This not what you expected, based on a game three and a half years ago? Interested in hearing your line of thought here.

[Nachomamma8]

Now THIS appears to be one of those "wordy" posts meant to obscure and confuse. Basicly youre saying you think Goodmorning is scum based on how you think she would and wouldnt play?

Please tell me that you're not subscribing to her reasoning...

I think goodmorning is scum because I don't think she pushes on Dirty Harry for the reasons she's pushing here as town; it's a ridiculous, terrible case.

[Nachomamma8]

vague and self-contradicting

Explain these two things for me, please.

[Nachomamma8]

Hot take of Faalcon's catchup so far is that it's mostly summary as opposed to analysis and conclusions; I'm looking forward to what he comes up with at the end of the day.

[Nachomamma8]

Hot take of Faalcon's catchup so far is that it's mostly summary as opposed to analysis and conclusions; I'm looking forward to what he comes up with at the end of the day.

But don't worry, I will give the walls the time they deserve when you're all done with working on it, would just rather address everything as a whole.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho - just because I dont buy that the logic applies to DH, doesnt mean I dont think it applied to that post. It was wordy, vague and self-contradicting. I still think either you or goodmorning are the most likely scumpartners to E. However Id be surprised if you guys are a team together, so I still want to get E over either of you today since at least the two of you are talking and giving us shit to go on.

I also don't think you actually gave an opinion on the reasons I'm pushing goodmorning for - are they too wordy for you or...?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm here for EoD.

[Nachomamma8]

And at this moment I'm still finding myself wishing and hoping that we have time to lynch goodmorning before deadline ends; her latest posts are cartoonishly bad.

[Nachomamma8]

It feels unfair to lynch Nictherat at the moment when he hasn't really gotten time to get into the game; I don't think any of the cases against him are significant and I don't really like goodmorning's latest on him; she doesn't really have the motive to do anything but lurk out in this scenario if he's her scumpartner and her suddenly turning on him for his entrance after e was her top townread when she was entering the game seems slimy as hell.

[Nachomamma8]

Nic has destroyed any goodwill I had towards e

What about Nic's entrance was scummy?

-I expected Nacho to go after you for the "woe is me, we lynched badly" thing. He didn't. If I had time I'd go back and meta his games with me where he says something about how I sometimes make dumb pushes as Town (it's happened once or twice iirc) but I don't so...

Vecna didn't have any "woe is me, we lynched badly" posts; he had a post where he blame TNE's mislynch on him but that is a far far cry from "woe is me, we lynched badly". I'm also not really sure why you're using 1305 as a comparison to Vecna's reaction to the D1 mislynch; the only scum that responded to the day 1 mislynch in 1305 were experienced players and neither of them went "oh damn we mislynched yesterday!!!".

[Nachomamma8]

And no, I'm not going "oh look, goodmorning made a bad push, I think that she's scum!"; I'm going "oh look, goodmorning is making an

unbelievably bad

push, she is scum!". I've seen you tunnel people who I have townreads on, I've seen you have bad reasons, everyone has them; but your push here is ignoring obvious towntells and the actual things you're focusing on are so ridiculous that they're akin to propaganda.

I'm not overly surprised with you posturing against me after I've caught out and I'm not overly surprised with you backing off Harry after I called you out on it. I will be surprised if you manage to survive today after your "oh I guess Harry and I don't play anything alike! still scumreading him though!" post; calling that thought progression choppy as fuck would be putting it nicely.

[Nachomamma8]

I fully expect Harry and Vecna to check back in before EoD, not moving unless they're not showing up and it's obvious that they're showing up.
Vecna, if you're townreading her, you need to defend her based on the posts that she's making.

[Nachomamma8]

Welp, I think that hope is officially dead.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Nictherat

[Nachomamma8]

Don't vote yet or I will haunt you in your dreams; in LyLo, scum can quick hammer one wrong vote and win instantly.

I'm on vacation! I'm not declaring a V/LA because I imagine I will probably check in enough while I am gone but if I make drunken unintelligible posts you know why.

[Nachomamma8]

I haven't looked through the Franky/Loopdan ISOs, but RB seemed like a pretty obvious vanilla townie kill as well as a kill likely to get blocked.

[Nachomamma8]

Goodmorning, are you now reading DH as town?

[Nachomamma8]

How did scum-Nacho/goodmorning expect this to go?
Faalcon/me/Vecna are all suspicious of them.
Faalcon even came into D3 with an immediate vote.
We are unlikely to vote eachother too.

Something's not right.

IMO, let's start from scratch.
From D1.
Because at the moment this game is over.

If there was a reason to believe Loopdan was the cop then the motive to shoot him regardless of scum team composition.

[Nachomamma8]

Goodmorning, are you now reading DH as town?

Yeah, pretty much.

Leaves me with you/Vecna by PoE. I've been trying to reread and put a short case together on that but Olympics, so.

What caused the change?

[Nachomamma8]

Franky's slot isn't alive.

[Nachomamma8]

This was the start; I also like the way he's approaching this game day so far. Not that it couldn't come from Scum, but still.

I feel like you've missed a lot of my posts.

I was wondering if you were going to give a better explanation than "I realized I was paranoid of him inexplicably and then backed off".

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho : what's your second scumread. We're down to five, you should've figured it out now.

You. My read on good morning is far stronger than my read on you, however, and it's not like there is any world where I'm getting killed at night in this game, so my focus is on goodmorning. What do you think of her explanation for the shift in Dirty Harry read?

[Nachomamma8]

This fits in perfectly with the clever clever scum plods i would expect from scum players like you and nacho since you both are clearly quite clever when it comes to this game.

I don't understand why Goodmorning thinks that the Loopdan kill means that we couldn't be scum together, but I also don't understand how this is "clever clever scum plots". Last night, scum shot Loopdan because they thought they had the greatest chance of being the cop. They were right. If both power roles were flipped and Loopdan died then maybe I'd be more inclined to think shenanigans but as it stands that was the kill that every possible mafia team needed to make and so it is a kill that every team has obvious motivation to make.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm drawing closer to voting goodmorning.

I'll be out tomorrow at a wedding but will do my DUE DILIGENCE on Saturday before I vote. The only thing that I need answered or explained is the nonsense Dirty Harry read; I also think that it is hilarious how you apparently won't explain your read on me in LyLo beyond "meta!".

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: goodmorning

There's no world where you are town and you post that case.

[Nachomamma8]

So let's talk that post I referenced earlier (why did the read change between posts 328 and 451?): 543. In that post, Vecna references 5 times Nacho said he'd post and didn't: posts 270, 315, 447, 470, and 504. But only one of those posts is within the range of the posts that had the read change. The last 2 were after the change so could not have affected it. The first 2 were before the townread was given, so Vecna already knew about them - how could they contribute to a change of mind? So we're left with one. How does one "I'll talk about it later" post cause your read to 180? And for the record - Nacho posted no other posts in that time frame.

Vecna went from a townlean on me to including me in a group that he felt had the other scum. First of all, that's not even necessarily a read change; whenever you say that you have a town

lean

of someone, that doesn't mean that you don't think they should be included in the pool of potential scum and this is something you completely know.

Secondly, focusing on the fact that there was no other posts from me in between 328 and 451 and ignoring Vecna's read changes on Skold and Franky is the part where you lose me completely; is this seriously your case here? You don't think that Franky's huge 6-part case on e_is_cool could have changed Vecna's read on the slot? You don't think that his exchange that he has with Skold during that same period could have affected his read on Skold in any way whatsoever (you know, like he said it did) and that could have possibly bumped up Franky and Skold into his townreads with RB and Harry leaving a pool of {Nacho, Parabola, E_is_cool} for scum outside of TNE?

[Nachomamma8]

Then why unvote him?????

Again, you don't think that the spurt of activity I had shortly before the unvote had anything to do with it?

[Nachomamma8]

The fact the the cornerstone of your case is built around evidence that you requires you willfully ignoring relevant context (I know you saw Vecna's changes in those reads since you were in the ISO looking at them) makes it look like you're just fitting quotes to fit your scumreads, which, again, isn't something that comes from town players. Like, I don't see any way where you sit down and you're reading this computer and you go "HAH! Vecna says that Nacho is a light townread then transitions to him being in a group with 2 other people in it that contains one scum, SCUMPARTNERS!" and if you are town and that's really a thought process that went through your mind in addition to everything else that you've been saying this game then I really have no words.

[Nachomamma8]

Why on earth are you waiting with that? Half of the day is past and nothing is happening, and youre on the shorttrack to getting hung from a tree

Because, as I said, it's not going to be easy, and I've long proven that I'm a procrastinator.

You could ask Nacho the same question so idk why you're picking on only me (spoiler: I am actually pretty sure why but probably won't manage to convince anyone oh well).

I'm drawing closer to voting goodmorning.

I'll be out tomorrow at a wedding but will do my DUE DILIGENCE on Saturday before I vote.

The only thing that I need answered or explained is the nonsense Dirty Harry read; I also think that it is hilarious how you apparently won't explain your read on me in LyLo beyond "meta!".

[Nachomamma8]

And, don't pretend like you've explained your DH read a thousand times and no one is listening to you. Talk about why you were suddenly so confident about DH being town in LyLo when you've been scumreading him the entire game. Here are all of the posts that you've made on the subject before:

ugh dh stop being town

Goodmorning, are you now reading DH as town?

Yeah, pretty much.

Leaves me with you/Vecna by PoE. I've been trying to reread and put a short case together on that but Olympics, so.

[Nachomamma8]

i'm sick as fuck
apologize for crankiness

[Nachomamma8]

or terseness.
that's good too.

[Nachomamma8]

Suspicion: reading this back it sounds like you knew e_is_cool was town.
"more likely" - how do you know which stance is the "more likely" actual position?
Did your early town-read of e_is_cool make you lean "more likely" townie with incorrect theory?

I didn't think that saying e_is_cool misrepresented you was exactly fair; you asked a couple of questions, and he asked the motivation and behind them and assigned a possible scum motivation to them, whereas for me, misrepresentation in mafia is more looking at a set of events and warping them in a tangible way. I thought that type of questioning was more likely than not to be coming from town simply because it was so far out of left field; seemed unlikely to me that scum would stick their necks out so far attacking a townie so early in the game. I don't remember if I had a significant townread on e before then, but I do remember liking that post specifically.

Again, this feels like a soft defense.
It seems like you know which points I raise are either valid or invalid.

Do you think that the point that I brought up was invalid?
I didn't have a read on Faalcon at the time, but I thought your criticism on his reads list at the time was a bit harsh.

[Nachomamma8]

I thought you were purposefully playing conservatively because you were a town PR.
What benefits have you gained from choosing to "play this game more conservatively than usual"?

Not a ton, but that's more to blame on my schedule than the style in general.
What I had hoped to gain from playing a bit more conservatively was taking over the game less and being able to look at this with a more objective view; it's not at all unreasonable for my persuasiveness to outweigh the strength of my reads and by playing more conservatively I hoped I could lose a little persuasive, gain a little insight. The fact that I look a bit more PR-ish doesn't hurt either.

[Nachomamma8]

Your exhaustive discussion with Skold regarding 'scumlean-neutrality' was extensive.
What did you draw upon it regarding Skold's alignment?

Nothing at all, which wasn't exactly my expectation.
The premise of the argument was that "scumlean" is not that far from "null"; it's not a read that you're likely to stand behind or stick your neck out for. Skold's response was "you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong". I don't feel like not getting anything meaningful out of the interaction was my fault.

[Nachomamma8]

However, you were least articulate on this suspicion/read:

My reasoning wasn't overly complicated and could be found in my "stop shitposting" post; Vecna as town who was a fairly engaged player before didn't seem like the type who would be happy to give all up communication for no real reason, and, unfortunately, there have been players who sandbag as scum in a fairly ridiculous fashion. I don't think there could be more substance in the read than that.