Newbie 1707 - Game Over

[Hoppic]

VOTE: Alpacaalpaca

Alpacas are cute, and their name is poetic especially when you repeat it like a rhythm.

[Hoppic]

Ohh there's a lot to read. Hi everyone.

[Hoppic]

My first post wasn't forced, it's not an attempt on humor either, I made it sound strange on purpose.
If we don't lynch Murph now, we are just going to lynch him later because of how dangerous he sounds.
How about we lynch him now and start from there.
VOTE: MurphVOTE:
UNVOTE: wgeurts

What do you mean about Murphy sounding dangerous? Dangerous how?

[Hoppic]

I agree that Seth's first post seemed a bit forced. Obviously so, and on the first page not much else had happened, so it seemed a bit aggressive of wgeurts to suspect kaladin for pointing it out. It might be a strategy of just random pressuring though.

[Hoppic]

@Hoppic: I would love to hear your opinions on everyone so far. What do you think?

The people that stand out for me so far are Seth for being deliberately strange. He's my top scum pick so far. Also, wgeurts, alpaca and redcoyote. I'll see if I can go back and be more specific. Everyone else is null so far.

[Hoppic]

Alpacalpaca's only made one post so far, so it's hard to get a read just from that but it seemed strange to me that the post would be all about assessment and have no questions. Also, idk. It's easier to read people when you know what they're like a bit.

[Hoppic]

Actually, redcoyote seems kinda townie, but I suppose an experienced player would know how to do that. I'm thinking that a scum ic would be trying to take charge more.

[Hoppic]

@Hoppic: why do you read redcoyote as scum?

Haha answered you already!

[Hoppic]

@Hoppic: why do you read redcoyote as scum?

When I said "also..." I meant also stand out. Although now I read my comment back I see I got it wrong because it sounds like also scum.

[Hoppic]

@Hoppic: Raskolnikov has posted a lot. Does he not stand out a bit too? What do you think?

I can't really understand what she (?) is saying. A few players in this game are like that for me: raskolnokiv, you a bit and Murphy. Maybe others. I can understand individual words and sentences but overall I don't get it.

[Hoppic]

I think you may have stepped in it, Hop.

I'll be than happy to explain any post of mine that you don't understand.

Thanks okay, what do you mean by saying that I've "stepped in it"? Stepped in what?

[Hoppic]

From what I've observed so far only the ppl who has made the analysis of scum so far are town.

Who do you mean and why do you think they're town?

Does it bother you that a lot of people see you as scummy?

[Hoppic]

This strikes me as a town mindset. I guess because I think I would wonder the same thing as town.

This is awkward phrasing. He would think the same thing as town, if he was town... rather than that he did think the same.

Seems like a scum slip to me.

VOTE: redcoyote

[Hoppic]

I read both you and Ras as very town at this point, far more than any of the other players in this game. I'm grouping us together with the hopes that we can work as a bloc, more or less, in lynching someone today.

Buddying, rushing the lynch on day one... yeah. He's by far my strongest scum read.

[Hoppic]

I think you may have stepped in it, Hop.

I'll be than happy to explain any post of mine that you don't understand.

Thanks okay, what do you mean by saying that I've "stepped in it"? Stepped in what?

@ Hop

@Hoppic: Raskolnikov has posted a lot. Does he not stand out a bit too? What do you think?

I can't really understand what she (?) is saying. A few players in this game are like that for me: raskolnokiv, you a bit and Murphy. Maybe others. I can understand individual words and sentences but overall I don't get it.

This whole post comes across as disingenuous.

Therefore, in this instance, "stepping in it" refers to you making a statement that reads as contrived in an effort to seem as though you are stating something useful. ( you just stepped into a pile of dung )

Both Sim and I said we'd explain any post that you didn't understand. Yet you have not posted, quoted nor bumped any posts for clarification.

Simoyd asked me what I thought about Raskolnikov, and what I thought was that s/he posted a lot but that it didn't make much sense to me. I wouldn't have bothered saying that, except that he asked me directly. I put about you and Simoyd as well to show that it wasn't something outstanding or unusual about Raskolnikov but rather that it's about me and how I'm reading the game right now. i.e. that it's not making much sense yet. As I get to know how people are a bit more, maybe it will fit together better. It may seem disingenuous, but I don't see what else I can do except answer the question.

I haven't gone back and reread the game yet so I haven't quoted particular parts. Also, there may not be any reason to. Some things become clear anyway after time. I couldn't figure out what yoghurts was at first, but then I realized.

[Hoppic]

okay, a few people are complaining that I said I didn't understand a lot of what raskolnikov said, so I'm going to pick an early post to show you what I mean.

I don't really feel like this game is worth much analysis yet, but to help get it rolling I'll force myself to over-analyse!

I'll also explain something minor that influences my reads (and other peoples I think, even if they don't say it): potential to fake.
Basically, if I think someone is more capable of faking towniness I will be more reserved with that read.
An example being, if we had an IC like nachomamma who I've seen really good at scumplay I would never feel comfortable putting them beyond mild town, even if they "seem" really towny.
This can be from experience, but also from "feel"; if someone sounds really sophisticated and analytical they can feel really scary regardless of experience.
Usually I feel really confident with most of my newbie townreads and don't even discuss them much for it, and hopefully this will help you understand my approach here.

I don't get this. First, it's about being reserved with town reads, and then in the next paragraph that they're confident with their townreads, and then that they don't discuss them, and then they go on to discuss them. Then, it's that this will help understand the approach. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to understand even.

Extremely tentative reads
Simoyd - newbie-townish
Murph - very much into the game, definitely thinking. A tiny bit scary tbh, especially from how confident he sounds.
yogurts - Solid posts, agree in general with his reads. I thought his initial questioning of kala was to help start the game, however at this point he seems to actually suspect him. Asking good questions to all three of murph,sim,kala though I'd almost expect him to vote kala for his suspicion after asking why murph didn't vote. Moderate town, adjusted from his extensive experience.
KaladinStormblessed - feels a bit guarded. First post is actually okay, the rest are answering questions/explaining himself. Pretty null; can't townread him so far from what he's done, but this can go either way more-so than the others posted.
Redcoyote - Throws a lot of shade on yogurts which I don't agree with. I don't understand their reasoning for their vote on murph (how was that overly defensive?).
Not enough information {Hoppic, SethYazura, peoplewhohaven'tposted}

VOTE: Redcoyote
If he voted someone for minor things/posts while admitting they were minors, I wouldn't mind. But I feel like he's exaggerating how bad certain posts are to provide backing for his vote. But it's not necessary to be confident in your vote this early in the game, it actually is supposed to be weak and tentative; you don't have to stretch things...

This mostly is clear, but some things are hard to understand, such as, murphy definitely thinking and being a tiny bit scary... also, about not having to stretch things at the end, and how it's supposed to be weak and tentative. Where does that idea come from?

So, there's a lot of small things like this, and there are in most posts, so that's what I was talking about.

[Hoppic]

@Hoppic: Do you believe Seth's "slayer's gambit" explanation? What is your read on him?

Nothing Seth has said has made any sense to me and he seems really anti-town. I think he's probably scum, but redcoyote is a stronger read right now.

No, the slayer gambit explanation makes no sense. If you were doing that, why would you say so? Everyone's voting this early in the game, and the votes are not too serious so it doesn't make sense for timing either.

[Hoppic]

okay, a few people are complaining that I said I didn't understand a lot of what raskolnikov said, so I'm going to pick an early post to show you what I mean.

I don't really feel like this game is worth much analysis yet, but to help get it rolling I'll force myself to over-analyse!

I'll also explain something minor that influences my reads (and other peoples I think, even if they don't say it): potential to fake.
Basically, if I think someone is more capable of faking towniness I will be more reserved with that read.
An example being, if we had an IC like nachomamma who I've seen really good at scumplay I would never feel comfortable putting them beyond mild town, even if they "seem" really towny.
This can be from experience, but also from "feel"; if someone sounds really sophisticated and analytical they can feel really scary regardless of experience.
Usually I feel really confident with most of my newbie townreads and don't even discuss them much for it, and hopefully this will help you understand my approach here.

I don't get this. First, it's about being reserved with town reads, and then in the next paragraph that they're confident with their townreads, and then that they don't discuss them, and then they go on to discuss them. Then, it's that this will help understand the approach. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to understand even.

Wait! i get it! newbie town reads, I thought you meant townreads in a newbie game. but now I see you mean townreads of noobs. okay. you're more confident reading new people than you are reading experienced people. Got it.

[Hoppic]

See? There really is no point mentioning it. I just need to reread and think about it more.

[Hoppic]

@Hoppic: Do you believe Seth's "slayer's gambit" explanation? What is your read on him?

What do you think about what I said in post 227? Is it a scum slip?

[Hoppic]

This is awkward phrasing. He would think the same thing as town, if he was town... rather than that he did think the same.

Seems like a scum slip to me.

In what universe is this a scum slip? I was explaining why I considered that post to be town sounding.

You said,

"This strikes me as a town mindset. I guess because I think I would wonder the same thing as town."

You

think

you would wonder the same thing as town? It sounds as if you are just guessing what you would think if you were town, which means you're not town.

Had I not included that comment, I suspect you would've attacked me for being "too vague" and "not backing up my reasons", yeah?

I don't think so?

Easy way to slip in a reactionary, WIFOM vote.

I know that WIFOM stands for wine in front of me, but what are you referring to here?

[Hoppic]

So I have some concerns about you, hoppic:

Weak Sauce

Alpacalpaca's only made one post so far, so it's hard to get a read just from that but it seemed strange to me that the post would be all about assessment and have no questions. Also, idk. It's easier to read people when you know what they're like a bit.

Why do you think it is wierd that alpaca has no questions? It seems that you only have two posts so far with questions about other people (125 and 232). 124 and 306 are defensive clarification questions, so not the same thing. 231 appears to be rhetorical as there was no follow up? I'm not trying to say you should ask more questions. I'm wondering what makes you think Alpaca's post is wierd?

What I said. At the time he only had one post and it didn't have any questions, it was just assessment, and it was something i noticed. Since then, he's posted more, and he seems less strange. I didn't mean actual questions in a grammatical sense, but rather a questionning stance. It wasn't a big deal, but I felt that it would help town to say something rather than nothing so that people could get a sense of where I'm coming from.

Lurking / Not taking a stance / Feeling out the crowd

In posts 104, 107, 108, 109 - you really seem to be goin back and forth on your opinions. 109 explained this as a typo, but the wording in 107 "actually" demonstrates that the view posted here is different than 104. This series of posts gives me bad vibes.

Well sure. I didn't have any strong reads at the beginning. I'm not sure why you would see that as a problem.

Additionally:

@Hoppic: Raskolnikov has posted a lot. Does he not stand out a bit too? What do you think?

I can't really understand what she (?) is saying. A few players in this game are like that for me: raskolnokiv, you a bit and Murphy. Maybe others. I can understand individual words and sentences but overall I don't get it.

I think murph and I were very clear. It really seems like you were lurking and scared to take a stance at this point. What is the town motivation here to not understand when asked to provide an opinion? I'd say it could be newbishness but later (227) you demonstrate that you can make a pretty solid deep read, so I'm a bit curious about this inconsistentcy. More evidence of lurking and fear of taking a stance is shown here:

I haven't gone back and reread the game yet so I haven't quoted particular parts.

that's post number 229! I feel like that's pretty far in. I don't think it's valuable for town to be posting opinons and analysis without having read up at that point. Sounds like it's really just more fear to take a stance, and trying to feel out what opinion will draw the least attention. How do you think this helps town?

This mostly is clear, but some things are hard to understand, such as, murphy definitely thinking and being a tiny bit scary...

Lets face it. The murph trane was crap at the start, and was still crap at the time your post here. This seems like parroting to me. Basically your analysis was that you agreed with a shitty trane and then you posed a rhetorical question (which I also mentioned above). The focus here wasn't that you didn't understand what raskolnikov said, but more that you demonstrated you didn't value understanding what raskolnikov said. Your response to parrot his opionions and post the rhetorical question still doesn't really take any kind of stance. What is your read on Rasko?

I don't know what you're talking about here in relation to trains? I wasn't on any train at the beginning. You asked me directly what I thought about RAskolnicov and i said I didn't understand what they were saying and then when you and Murphy objected to that I tried to be more specific. I wasn't reading Raskolnikov as scum, and I didn't vote for them.

What do you think about what I said in post 227? Is it a scum slip?

Although I agree with your read, this again seems like you're feeling out the crowd and seeking validation before really jumping on it. I don't think I'm an authority in this game, and if you have a problem with something RC said, then why do I need to agree with you? Is there a reason other than more pressure on RC? There was no question from you in 227. Why didn't you just clearly outline the issue up front to him to potentially get his response instead?

I wasn't seeking validation before jumping in. My vote is on redcoyote, but I wasn't to draw people's attention to that comment because it seemed like a scum slip to me. Either other people think so too and we can vote for him, or there's an explanation that I am missing.

One last thing: In post 231 you analyse the first part of Rasko's post 72. Then you have some revelation in post 233 about it. What made you chose this part (not the second half of 72) to analyze? How is this valuable to town?

I just picked a post at random so I could show you what I meant by not understanding. It wasn't just that post - it was all through the thread so far. Probably - I can't remember what was in the second part of the post - it was more straight forward, or maybe I felt that the first part was enough to show what I meant.

The seth trane

My first post wasn't forced, it's not an attempt on humor either, I made it sound strange on purpose.
If we don't lynch Murph now, we are just going to lynch him later because of how dangerous he sounds.
How about we lynch him now and start from there.
VOTE: MurphVOTE:
UNVOTE: wgeurts

What do you mean about Murphy sounding dangerous? Dangerous how?

You jump on the seth trane, but only after rasko, murph, alpaca, and yogurts. So it's a pretty safe bet this won't draw attention at this point right? You also agree with his RVS seeming forced in post 103. I don't think your RVS vote is any more or less forced, as you provided two distinct reasons for your RVS vote. What exactly do you think is forced in his post? What words or topics sound forced? What really bothers me is:

What RVS vote? I was just asking Seth what he meant because I didn't know what he meant about Murphy sounding dangerous.

From what I've observed so far only the ppl who has made the analysis of scum so far are town.

Who do you mean and why do you think they're town?
Does it bother you that a lot of people see you as scummy?

The first question is ambiguous. I'm getting vibes here that you're asking how to be a better town. Only scum is concerned with pretending to be town. The second question though is way off. If the answer is yes, then what? If the answer is no, then what? How does this help town? Why did you ask this? It sounds like "does it bother you that you're town, your strategy is crap, and you will be lynched instead of me?"

i just wanted more explanation of why people giving analysis of scum means they're town, and also I wasn't sure who he meant because everyone's given analysis of some kind already. The second question was about him deliberately seeming scummy, which is anti-town, and I was wondering why he was okay doing that.

Your very next post after 127 is 227. During this time the seth trane derailed and exploded into the "slayer's gambit" junk. And your first post is to step away from seth in fear, which continues in post 228 (Note that I'm not sure I would agree with what seth says in 244. I think the whole thing is WIFOM. Scum could do either; be scared, or wagon on). But when I ask about it you gave me this:

Nothing Seth has said has made any sense to me and he seems really anti-town. I think he's probably scum, but redcoyote is a stronger read right now.
No, the slayer gambit explanation makes no sense. If you were doing that, why would you say so? Everyone's voting this early in the game, and the votes are not too serious so it doesn't make sense for timing either.

So if you don't believe the slayer gambit, then how do you explain seth being less of a read than RC? Why would a townie act like scum, and say he's doing the slayer's gambit and not be doing the slayer's gambit? How is that a worse read than what you have on RC?

Seth seems illogical and scummy, definitely. I'm okay to vote for him, but I've had experiences in the past of voting for people because they seem illogical and anti-town, and they flip town so I'm not certain. But yeah, seth and redcoyote are my top scumreads atm.

[Hoppic]

Just wondering why would you vote someone without intent to lynch, I mean you have said that you think that he is the most scummy out of everyone and than you voted him because he doesn't have a vote yet but you don't have any intent to lynch him? Shouldn't voting for people be reserved for actually wanting to lynch them. Like its open to change the vote later but why vote without intent.

This strikes me as a town mindset. I guess because I think I would wonder the same thing as town.

So did you wonder the same thing? Or not?

[Hoppic]

---

This is awkward phrasing. He would think the same thing as town, if he was town... rather than that he did think the same.

Seems like a scum slip to me.

In what universe is this a scum slip? I was explaining why I considered that post to be town sounding. Had I not included that comment, I suspect you would've attacked me for being "too vague" and "not backing up my reasons", yeah?

Easy way to slip in a reactionary, WIFOM vote.

I don't like the way he cut out his own original words when he quoted me. I think a townie would be more likely to keep all the words in and do his best to explain them. Later he gave an explanation of why he used the phrasing, I THINK I WOULD wonder the same thing as town. But here, in his first attempt, he doesn't explain it at all.

[Hoppic]

wgeurts has been on this website longer than you and ought to know better than to make such early assumptions. You may not be as aware of this.

You've made some quite early assumptions about who you think is town. How are your assumptions different?

[Hoppic]

{wgeurts}
{Simoyd}
{Raskolnikov, Murph}
{AlpacaAlpaca}
{KaladinStormblessed}
{Hoppic, RedCoyote}
{SethYazura}

I need not say anything about this post, if you don't see how it's dreadful then you're blind. If you insist I can guide you through it if you truly are so unfortunate.
.

Yes, that would be good if you could explain why you don't like this list. Thanks.

So far, you've explained why Seth's actions don't make sense to you. The thing is, they don't make sense as scum OR as town. So why do you think he's scum?

[Hoppic]

Sorry, I cut out the middle part of your post when quoting because it was so long. Don't mind okay?

[Hoppic]

What will you gain if I flip town?

Can you imagine seth being around still hurting town on day two?

I'm willing to policy lynch Seth due to that readslist alone, someone playing like that is going to coast to lylo and lose us the game.

yup

How can one player coast to lylo? This makes no sense. One vote isn't enough to do that and the game will change after the first flip whatever it is.

Also I really dislike this logic of let's lynch him for being a bad town player... in a beginner's game on day 1. A policy lynch? I don't think so.

[Hoppic]

he still has almost a week to drop the ego if he chooses... If he's scum then he can't really choose to do that, because the motivations aren't ego.

@hoppic: what makes you think he's town?

I don't. I'm leaning scum on him but I'm not sure.

[Hoppic]

So did you wonder the same thing? Or not?

Of course. I wouldn't have said it otherwise.

So why did you say, "i think I would wonder the same thing" if you knew you were wondering the same thing?

[Hoppic]

Are the roles in this game assigned randomly? Is it possible for mafia to be 2 experienced players or 2 noobs, or is it always 1 experienced player and 1 noob?

[Hoppic]

So did you wonder the same thing? Or not?

Of course. I wouldn't have said it otherwise.

So why did you say, "i think I would wonder the same thing" if you knew you were wondering the same thing?

Because I'm talking to other people, not myself. See, that's the difference between you and me. I don't speak like other people should believe/think the same way I do, which I find overbearingly manipulative and scummy. Perhaps you don't have a problem with it (clearly you don't since you're criticizing me for not dictating my thoughts as though I think they should be mandatory thoughts).

---
so you were wondering the same thing but you also thought that you would wonder the same thing if you were a different person who was also town?

[Hoppic]

Sorry messed up the quote format.

[Hoppic]

It's all random.

Thanks

[Hoppic]

Is anyone else bothered by Kaladin lurking? Like closer to the start it was like, whatever. But now I'm really worried about it.

Yes, and raskolnikov needs to come back and vote. But for me, nah, I just want to lynch redcoyote, or seth as a second choice.

What's your view on redcoyote?

[Hoppic]

Kaladin has been really quiet, it's true, but his opinions are so similar to mine that I haven't really suspected him.

[Hoppic]

hehe I'm a goon now.
Is it because you're more sure that Seth is scum?

[Hoppic]

:\ we can be friends you know

yay let's be friends! None of this is personal. It's just mafia.

Is anyone else bothered by Kaladin lurking? Like closer to the start it was like, whatever. But now I'm really worried about it.

Yes, and raskolnikov needs to come back and vote. But for me, nah, I just want to lynch redcoyote, or seth as a second choice.

What's your view on redcoyote?

:I'm not the one being asked here, but I have to tell you the reason RedCoyote isn't scum,
RedCoyote isn't scum because he didn't push to lynch me when he has the perfect opporrtunity to do so without drawing suspicion on himself, same if in the situation that I am scum and he's my scum partner, he can just bus me and get away with it.

If you're town and he knows you're going to flip town, then it makes sense to not be on the wagon. town cred. See, it seems really scummy to me that you didn't think of that.

Why are you even considering the possibility of you being scum? It just makes it seem so conclusive that you and redcoyote are both scum. The only part that makes me nervous is that it's too obvious.

[Hoppic]

I just don't understand how people see town there...

No, I'm ready to wrap up the day. Let's not drag it out. We could vote for seth or redcoyote. Can you explain why you prefer seth?

[Hoppic]

I think redcoyote is scum, but I'm getting bored of today and want to move on so I'm going to hammer Seth in about 12 hours unless anyone speaks up in the meantime.

[Hoppic]

VOTE: Seth

[Hoppic]

I can't read the whole thread now, and I'm going to be really busy for the next two days. But I am not Scum. I'm a townie, but yeah, I read the game all wrong. I tunnelled Seth and redcoyote way too much. I need to rethink everything.

[Hoppic]

Oh and good morning y'all

Good morning to you.

[Hoppic]

Also quoting over half the player-list and saying there's likely one scum in there is a bit silly, as that's basic probability theory which I can show you if you insist. Also I literally stated I think both scum are on separate wagons as I stated I think KS and Hoppic are scum, Hoppic is the worst of the two

as I'll explain

and the one I'm more confident in seeing flip read.

Yes, please do explain.

[Hoppic]

Ok so briefly looking back I am starting to think that Kal is most likely scum here since, as we looked at before he has not posted a lot throughout the game which is ok I suppose for certain reasons but he says that he isn't posting a lot because he doesn't want to be seen as scum by mimicking what other people think since he has basically the same opinions as everyone else. He than says that he will try and post more before others post his same thoughts. However, aside from when directly asked he never really comes out and says anything, and it's not like he is gone when everyone is posting since in post 187 when Rask mentions he is in prod range he basically instantly responds. Multiple people has suggested that he post more and he has yet to do so, and aside from 2 posts all of his posts have been max like 2 sentences. In one of his more recent posts 521 he says that his thoughts haven't changed except slightly more of a scum read on Hoppic though he still thinks that he is town. I am seeing a lurking scum attempting to lay low and coast making an occasional post to dodge prods.

VOTE: KaladinStormblessed

I think that that other scum was for sure on the Seth wagon and the people on that wew (Simoyd, wgeurts, AlpacaAlpaca, Rask, Hoppic)
Counting out Sim RIP and myself, that means we have Wgeurts, Rask, and Hoppic

and I am strong town reading both Wgeurts and Rask

and so I am seeing Hoppic as scum buddies with Kal, but I am much more focused on Kal right now so thats where my vote goes.

Why do you have a strong town read on those two?

[Hoppic]

Ok so I see why you are saying and it makes sense for most players in this game however both wgeurts and Raskolnikov are experienced and may have planned on posting a many detailed posts to get people to think exactly what you are thinking now. If they were both newbies I could accept your logic but both have experience.

^here you seem to be saying that both wgeurts and rask are experienced enough to fake town effectively. Has your opinion changed?

[Hoppic]

I've got to go. I'll read more tomorrow.

[Hoppic]

tl;dr = There should be one scum on and one scum off the Seth wagon. If you accept this, we should lynch either Murph or KS today.

There's two possibilities: that redcoyote is scum or that he's town.

Suppose he's town. There were two wagons yesterday - on Seth and redcoyote, and if both were town that would be great for scum. I think they would much prefer to lynch redcoyote over Seth because of his experience, and so they would be unlikely to be voting for Seth if both are town.

There was me, Murphy, Kaladin and Raskolnikov on redcoyote. So strong FOS on those three IF he's town. But then Raskolnikov switched to Seth, so i guess he would be null. So it makes sense that RC wants to vote for Kaladin and Murphy right now.

[Hoppic]

On the other hand, suppose that redcoyote is scum. In that case, it's very likely that the other scum hopped on the Seth wagon, especially after redcoyote was at L1. Nobody did hop on then, so if he is scum, then the other scum was very likely already there which means that scum would be wgeurts or alpacaalpaca.

That's assuming that scum behave in ways I would expect them to, which is a big assumption.

Overall then, Raskolnikov is the only one null or town in both scenarios.

[Hoppic]

Although, I'm thinking, if Seth and redcoyote were both town then scum might just hang back and not vote, because it's good for them either way, and Raskolnikov was slow to vote and then he moved his vote around a lot. That makes sense as town or as scum.

[Hoppic]

I'm naturally more of a lurker, and see little point in making a post that reiterates the same things I or others already said, and day one, there wasn't much I saw that others hadn't already observed. I'm not going to waste time BSing a wall of text of reasons when they're very similar to ones already stated.

That's not helpful to town, though. You seem to be just cruising in the background and not scum hunting, which makes you seem scummy. If you're town, the more you post the more obvious that will be.

You stating what you think is not BSing. Why would you think so?

[Hoppic]

Sorry. I've got a cold or the flu or something which makes me feel depressed and incapable. How to pick out scum? I always guess wrong, which leaves me with not much to say .

[Hoppic]

Oy. I said something else but it didn't post ..

I was worried that everyone would be suspicious because I expressed weakness like that other time when I said I didn't understand. But no. I'm like that. My life is one long whine of inadequacy.

[Hoppic]

Well, there's always the Costanza method

You mean do the opposite? Lol. Yeah I already thought of that.

[Hoppic]

Join me, and together, we can rule this galaxy as father and son.

*exhales*

Hiiii

[Hoppic]

Without conversation and open discussion we do not afford ourselves the opportunity to scrutinize.

I'm skeptical of those who tend to avoid direct conversation and only contribute minimally. Town folk should be marching about with pitchforks and torches not hiding in the shadows of mommy's skirts.

Yeah yeah I'm all for that. It's just that my head is empty. I feel really unwell. But I'm okay saying random stuff like this. Will it help though?

[Hoppic]

Without conversation and open discussion we do not afford ourselves the opportunity to scrutinize.

I'm skeptical of those who tend to avoid direct conversation and only contribute minimally. Town folk should be marching about with pitchforks and torches not hiding in the shadows of mommy's skirts.

Murphy for example could be scum. That pitchfork speech would be easy for scum to make. That beverage shtick. Scum could do that. He comes out strongly. Could be deliberate. Idk. How to tell? I've really got no idea.

[Hoppic]

Oy. I said something else but it didn't post ..

I was worried that everyone would be suspicious because I expressed weakness like that other time when I said I didn't understand. But no. I'm like that. My life is one long whine of inadequacy.

There's a place for some non-game related posts, however with that said, if that is the only contribution it looks forced as in just trying to participate without actually doing so.

Red flags and bells

Lol. But of course it's forced. I'm for ing myself to participate even though I've got nothing to say. I said that. I don't want to get bumped again.

[Hoppic]

By this time everyone should have had time to evaluate all of D1 and if necessary reassess previous D1 notions and now should be ready to contribute.

I have a friend who always says, Oh no, I can hear the Should in that.

[Hoppic]

Two shoulds in one little post.

[Hoppic]

Okay, not sort of. I'm saying it.

Saying what?

[Hoppic]

Are you saying that you're doubting that everyone's gone back over D1 in detail? Have you?

[Hoppic]

Are you saying that you're doubting that everyone's gone back over D1 in detail? Have you?

Yes, I did.

How long did it take? Did it change your mind about anything?

[Hoppic]

Okay, so I'm going back over the thread a section at a time.

On the first two pages, the most notable events are wgeurts and kaladin casting suspicion on Seth. It didn't seem problematic to me at the time because I thought Seth's first post did seem a bit forced too. I'm not sure I would have said so, though, after just one post like that. Still, it's okay to throw around random suspicion at the beginning.

The interaction between wgeurts and kaladin stands out to me though, because wgeurts reacts so strongly when kaladin agrees with him, post 17. The first interpretation I had was that they're scum buddies and wgeurts was trying to distance himself. Could be. It doesn't seem to read as if wgeurts is putting pressure on kaladin to see how he reacts. When you compare it to wgeurts' suspicion of Seth, which he downplays and says that there could be other explanations, his suspicion of kaladin is a lot stronger, especially as kaladin is a newbie.

[Hoppic]

Page 2-5. Seth does his infamous I was sounding weird on purpose post. Wgeurts pushes a scum read on him again. Murphy scum reads him. Then there's alpaca' s first post which stood out to me at the time and still does. I'll quote it.

[Hoppic]

Ok so I just caught up and I think that Murph has been a little defensive but only because he was called out on some things which wouldn't be good just to leave alone. He was possibly overly defensive but I am going to keep that tucked away in my memory for later analysis.

I am tempted to start pointing fingers at people however I think that D1 is mostly about talking semantics about posts and so on this point I have to say that I am a little confused at Seth making a post sound strange on purpose and than covering it up as it being his 'secret', although that may also be entirely valid. I think that Simoyd's questions were good ones and on that note I have to say that on post 33 I am not convinced as KS having the same opinion as someone is a scumtell, although it is mildly suspicious you can't change up your opinions every time if you don't state them first to appear as not just simply agreeing instead of holding the same beliefs.

As for post 34 I think that the third sentence was a bit iffy "possibly" but in the end might just be a way to get conversation started D1.

I am extremely non committal right now since I I personally think that everything said so far could be taken either way, now the nest step is to cross check what people say in the future with suspicions I already hold for them.

He says twice that he has suspicions but he doesn't state them. Maybe the part that stands out for me is when he says he's confused about Seth's post. Why not just ask for clarification.

[Hoppic]

Page 6-7. Seth makes a good point about scum being less likely to do detailed analysis. Wgeurts is pushing Seth hard. He denies that detailed analysis is a town tell, which is interesting because wgeurt's analysis has been the most detailed so far. Also, he (wgeurts) names himself as an experienced player.

Raskilnikov has also written a lot but I just don't get it. As I said before. I can't seem to grasp his intentions or meaning, so I can't assess it.

[Hoppic]

Page 7-10

I have some stuff on hoppic for when I'm not on my phone.

Wgeurts has done this more than once - said he's had stuff on me but then failed to deliver it. Why? Also, he initiated the scum read on Seth, and then pushed for it hard. He's my top scum read atm. I can't remember how many votes are on him though

Also, redcoyote's scum slip. Seems like a slip to me. Also, his play in day 1 is not really helpful. Idk. I'm leaning scum on him too.

Then kaladin, who is rather noticeably under- contributing. That's nullish to me. It may be anti-town but that's different from being scummy as we saw with Seth.

[Hoppic]

Kaladin's post 293 seems so scummy. I was tunnelling rc so hard at the time that I didn't see it.

[Hoppic]

do you want to talk about anything one-on-one

Yes. a couple things maybe. I'm concerned about yogurts. I'm wondering if hoppic and him are partners. Hoppics fear of taking a stance near the start kind of seems to me like he's distancing from yogurts. What do you think about that or is there anything on your mind?

I think that's a very reasonable, very rationale partnership to consider at this time. Hoppic seems intent to focus attention on me while wgeurts seems intent to kill that same attention while not giving Hoppic any apparent negative attention for it. If I had to guess right now, I'd say that was a pretty solid guess at scum. I could very well be wrong, but we're still on D1, after all.

I don't like this. Sure, I don't like it because he's reading me as scum, but also this "I could very well be wrong" stuff. Didn't rc criticize people for using that kind of language earlier?

Also, the scum slip. He never explained it as far as I can see, although Simoyd seemed okay with his explanation.

[Hoppic]

This is awkward phrasing. He would think the same thing as town, if he was town... rather than that he did think the same.

Seems like a scum slip to me.

In what universe is this a scum slip? I was explaining why I considered that post to be town sounding.

You said,

"This strikes me as a town mindset. I guess because I think I would wonder the same thing as town."

You

think

you would wonder the same thing as town? It sounds as if you are just guessing what you would think if you were town, which means you're not town.

I love this comment, because anyone with a town mindset (read: not you and possibly not Sim/Kal either) would've taken this knee-jerk reaction more critically.

If I were in Alpaca's shoes with a town alignment, I think I would've thought similarly to how he thought at that specific time. What part abotu that is hard to understand? I contend that that comment isn't hard to understand, and, instead, you deliberately tried to frame it in such a way to make others buy into the idea that there was a nefarious motive behind my relating to Alpaca. So, my attempt at trying to relate to Alpaca as a potential town-on-town discussion scared you, so you tried to put myself and Alpaca in a negative light at the outset.

Here he's characterizing me, Simoyd and Kal (? why kal?) as not having town mindsets for being suspicious of his wording. That doesn't make sense. Also, it doesn't seem like something an IC would do if he was town. i.e. he's not considering us when saying this, he's considering his audience.

[Hoppic]

I don't think it's necessary to qualify every comment/vote with "keep in mind, this is early" "this is a weak read" "I'm not too sure about this" etc, etc. I think it undercuts the purpose of the vote. Was your question about my Murph vote rhetorical?

Yeah. Here. And then, on page 13, he's all "this is just D1" and "i could very well be wrong" etc. Interesting contradiction. Not sure what it means though.

[Hoppic]

another arrangement I'm considering is you and rasko scum. He jumped on you poorly as if he wasn't a good busser, then switched and you guys are kinda friendly now.

Yeah this is interesting. Raskolnikov was on redcoyote from the beginning, then hopped off when it was at L-1, and now is back on again. There's something unconvincing about all that.

[Hoppic]

I'm still only on page 22, but right now I'm thinking it's a Raskolnikov-Redcoyote scum team. I'll give reasons later. Also, I've got another 8 pages to read. Just giving a heads up because there's less than a week to vote. I'll vote for either of them.

[Hoppic]

I am going to refrain from voting in fear of someone being put at L-1 too fast until I have completed my reread and analysis and Radiant has caught up and started posting since my vote hinges on what he has to say.

Hmm. See, as far as I can tell, your vote is on kaladin. So you are voting. Why wouldn't you know that?

Another question I have for you - why were you so eager to tell kaladin that his lurking was a scum tell? It's as if you were warning him, which makes me think that you thought he was probably town, and wanted him to avoid being mislynched. Or, alternately, that you are both scum and you were genuinely warning him to stop being so scummy. Not remembering that your vote is on him leans me to the latter intepretation.

So yeah. Now I'm thinking scum is alpaca-kaladin. I take it back about redcoyote-raskolnikov.

tl:dr: I still have no idea who scum is and time is running out.

[Hoppic]

VOTE: Seth L-1

Why did you change your vote so suddenly here? You went from being sure that redcoyote was scum to voting away from him. You said later that it was because you were suspicious of me, but when you changed your vote, I hadn't been active for a while. It couldn't have been in reaction to something I said.

[Hoppic]

Right, can we not hammer just yet.

I'm catching up right here and want to get my thoughts in.

He can't answer, but I wonder why he didn't unvote for a bit if he wanted to avoid a hammer?

[Hoppic]

Hoppic seems like such a good compromise lynch for all of you that cannot agree on Seth or me. Think about it.

We're not compromising, that's how scum win late-day mislynches.

Yeah, this seemed really weird to me too, but I didn't say anything because he was voting for me and I was already accused of defensive voting.

But yeah, when would town ever want a compromise lynch? A compromise lynch would always be a mislynch, wouldn't it?

[Hoppic]

It's okay to change your mind, but that Seth vote went against what you had said up until then. It was a complete change of heart, and I don't understand why you (Raskolnikov) would be pursuaded by the arguments of someone who was your number 1 scum pick (redcoyote), especially since his arguments were so weak, since you already disagreed, and you even admitted that all he had against me was circumstantial, and that I was probably town. Even if he did convince you that I was scum, why didn't you vote for me rather than Seth? None of it makes sense.

Here's some of your comments, for context:

I find hoppic/seth hard to buy, and I'd put past most newbies any half-decent day 1 bussing without daytalk.
The only people I'd think are capable would be red who's defending him anyways and the obv pick for partner, and you but I've went over and highly doubt it.

Theoretically if seth is scum he has 3-4 people questioning their scumread on him of which at most 1 is scum, and in a hypothetical world where seth is scum and redcoyote isn't then town-red is hard-defending scum and heavily misreading the game.

Red/seth is probably the team even if it looks too easy, but I can also see scum-red whiteknighting town-seth as another possibility, partnered with kali or someone else. It's tempting to lynch seth because as a town player it'd be less of a loss along with his VT claim, but I see sethtown as possible whereas redtown doesn't make sense with how I see the game and would pretty much force me to throw out my reads.

@wgeurts: why is hoppic so low in your list?

For what it's worth my personal switching from red to seth here is almost entirely because upon review I can actually see seth/hoppic as a possibility here.
Considering hoppic flew into scumreading red when the opportunity arisen and strongly prefers that lynch to seth it is something to think about, along with less thought on other (non red and seth) reads than most other people have shown. For someone scum with seth pushing the alternative that comes up while still scumreading seth isn't at all unreasonable, and if hoppic is town his play around that was just inconvenient or unlucky in how it looks because it did so happen he wasn't involved until the convenient moment to relieve pressure from seth.
That said it's mostly circumstantial and between him/red I'd still think hoppics more likely town there. But as it is I'd rather take the seth lynch if there's a small chance red's town just misreading seth and seth is with hop or potentially something else (kala?).

[Hoppic]

Sorry for all the mutli-posts. But I'm so alooooone here.

[Hoppic]

Frankly, the more antagonism I read in regards to Seth, the more convinced I am that this is wagon is largely driven by emotion and personality. It's certainly not something I want to be a part of.

Yes, he was right about two things, that Seth was town and that there were townies on the wagon, i.e. that they were driven by "emotion and personality" rather than nefarious scum purposes.

It's possible that redcoyote is so clear sighted and experienced that he can see what the rest of us can't, but I don't believe it. If he was as sure as he seemed to be and he was town, he'd be arguing it more, I think. Like, either he's NOT sure and holding back, or he IS sure in which case he'd be arguing it. Here, he's not really arguing it, he's just stating his opinion, and he's sure. Idk.

[Hoppic]

I didn't decline. I pointed out that I had already commented on it and even included the posts relevant to said comments. Yes, I feel like you did have an agenda. You cannot refute my opinion without also accepting that it didn't change my opinion. 2 way street.

Decline is apt given that I asked you to produce something, you acknowledged that request yet you failed to do so. Show me the post where you "included the posts relevant", because this is exactly what I asked you to do.

The rest of us are wrong in thinking/saying Seth's play thus far has been anything but anti-town ?

Yes, that is correct. Someone having a different playstyle /= being anti-town. I've seen Seth do stuff I wouldn't do as town, but nothing he's done has objectively harmed the town. A self-vote is anti-town. Spamming the thread is anti-town. Prodigious lurking is anti-town. Uncivil and/or classless behavior can be anti-town. Excessive fluff can be anti-town.

This isn't an all-inclusive list, but do you see my point? You can't just call someone you disagree with or you think is scummy "anti-town". Someone that should be "policy lynched". These terms are being thrown around much too loosely.

true.

Okay, take off your blinders and look at what we've said :knowing: it comes from townies. Does it change anything for you ?

Pardon? Which players are you saying you "know" are townies?

True. That was weird that murphy said that.

[Hoppic]

This game is the definition of brainwash and how it leads to a mislynch.

I think redcoyote is scum, but I'm getting bored of today and want to move on so I'm going to hammer Seth in about 12 hours unless anyone speaks up in the meantime.

If you turn out to be town at the end which is not possible, you are an embarassment and you shouldn't play at mafiascum.net again, you are solving the game and you don't give a fuck about mislynches just cause you are really bored and want to move on, then why the fuck are you on forum mafia? You are aware of the fact that forum mafia takes months to even a year to finish, there are always marathon, irc, and sc2 mafia and you didn't pick any of them because you came here to piss people the fuck off that dedicated themselves to the game. The worst you have done is that you hammered me acknowledging that I should be lynched whether I am town or not because my trap is that fucking disastrous end-game when it's just a simple reaction test bait, but no you are brainwashed by wgeurts really well and that's wgeurts trademark playstyle. Of course you deny this because you didn't say this at your post at all, but you didn't say what alignment am I because you believe this policy lynch bs, when will you realize that the policy lynch was an exxagerated reaction to my first post?
Oh wait why I am telling you this when you're guaranteed to be scum?

It got to the point where the entire DP1 was about you and whether or not you were scum. People couldn't look past that and consider other possibilities, so that's why I was okay hammering you. We need to know one way or the other so we could move on. Normally, when I mislynch other townies I feel bad, but I don't this time because I think you're to blame. You played anti-town deliberately, and you only suspected people who voted for you; and you town-read people who thought you were town. That's unfortunate.

[Hoppic]

Yeah, Hoppic is definitely scum.
And I'd be willing to bet cash that KS also is.
VOTE: Hoppic
Await walls when I'm home, I've reread the entire game and I suggest everyone else does as well.

The strange thing about this is that he's still confident in his reads. If I were in his shoes and had just spent DP1 aggressively leading a mislynch, I would doubt myself. I wouldn't follow up with such sure reads and votes. On the other hand, he did ask to be replaced, which is consistent with feeling bad about DP1. So, on the whole, I'm leaning town on wgeurts.

Apart from anything, that's really risky play to be so aggressively after a mislynch as scum on DP1, and also, why would you risk it for someone like Seth who is begging for a mislynch? I think scum would be much more likely to be quieter. So for now I'm going with wgeurts being town.

[Hoppic]

Believe it or not, I was referring to the end of D1. You know, when it actually mattered. Must you be so disingenuous?

I'm reading 520, and you're effectively giving your blessing to the Seth lynch.

Not really. Saying wtf is not the same as okaying a lynch.

[Hoppic]

I've read the whole thread through and I'm going to vote for

redcoyote

by the end of the day. I just want to give him a few days to claim or other people to argue.

[Hoppic]

Hoppic In post 780 you say true quoting where Coyote said Seth wasn't playing anti town than in post 781 you say Seth played anti town mind clearing that up for me?

I was agreeing to the part where is said that people shouldn't be policy lynched for playing differently. There was no good reason to policy lynch Seth. When I said he was anti town, I meant that his play was not helping town. I didn't lynch him for that reason: I thought that he could well be scum. But also, I felt that the play had got to the point where we couldn't make progress until we knew one way or the other about him, and he was partly responsible for getting it to that point, although we all had a part in that, obviously.

[Hoppic]

I THINK the vote count is:

Kaladin (2) - alpaca, redcoyote
Hoppic (1) - radiantcowbells
Redcoyote (2) - Raskolnikov, Murphy

Not voting: kaladin, Hoppic (although I plan to vote for redcoyote)

[Hoppic]

I have become v/la and will be for about a week, probably will be able to sneak in some posts, but I really intended to step it up and then, as the wiki calls it, 'meatworld' got in the way

Please vote! We only have a few days left.

[Hoppic]

@redcoyote. Thanks for your answer. It's true that you did give arguments, but overall I got the impression that they were defensive arguments, by which I mean you were giving explanations when asked directly (as in the post you cited) rather than arguments you were coming up with spontaneous ly. Maybe it's because I discounted what you said, especially about me because it was wrong. Even so, that's my impression.

[Hoppic]

How unfortunate Radiant is allowed to get away with such deliberate apathy. I would recommend y'all not let him or KS do the same thing tomorrow (for KS it would be the third (!) day of doing it). Hoppic, do you see Radiant's 806 as obvious of a buddy attempt as I do given that he's effectively just mimicking your D1 argument?

Yeah, I played with radiantcowbells before, and he was scum and gave up and kinda fessed and dumped his newbie partner. So, idk. Maybe he's just lazy. If he's town, I'm glad he's voting, unlike kaladin.

You should consider claiming maybe.

[Hoppic]

So I'll just go ahead and vote for redcoyote sometime later today then.

[Hoppic]

Sorry. It's annoying to hold off on voting. It's just that whenever I hammer, people always get grumpy. But there's been lots of time for discussion

[Hoppic]

The Wgeurts/Radiant slot

Spoiler:

@ Kal and geurts

Why do either of you have suspicions about a single D1 poster ?

Seems more like Seth was acknowledging/poking an acquaintance with a throw-away D1 vote.

If you think it's more nefarious, please share why.

If you noticed I didn't vote, as there are plenty of other explanation for Seth's actions and I stated as such. Instead what I'm more attempting to do is get content building up through posting my thoughts (even if they are pretty much nonsense or as sturdy as a castle made out of sand) and having others react to them, which in turn leads to more reactions by which point the ball is rolling and we can finally play.

On the other hand though seth's post

does

feel quite forced, do you not feel so?

It's not as random cause it's the second vote on a person, with no real reason, but follow up votes are more suspicious than the first vote. Also you have a reason, joking revenge vote, he doesn't. I don't like to bounce my vote around so I wait to vote. Yes, I have done mafia before, a few games on gamefaqs, unsure if I'll be able to find links. Almost didn't post it for fear it'd be suspicious but didn't want to be silent.

Random votes often last a few pages, it being the second vote really doesn't say much at all. If seth is town he doesn't exactly have a lot of information to start building upon with the few posts before him. Do you follow what I'm saying? His post may read as forced but it may just be his style of posting, with him making an odd joke. It happens enough in games to be a viable possibility.

Newer players don't like voting a lot I've seen so fair enough there, why are you trying to not appear suspicious though? What would you reason for doing that be as town? I can't quite follow your motivation there and am leaning to saying that's likely scum behaviour.

The joke feels like he wanted to make a statement and appear likeable, though it's just a tonal thing and shouldn't be assigned much worth. It's not exactly the most objective of evidence however it's all I had to go with at first.

Thoughts on KS's post 20 though?

So at the beggining here Wgeurts doesn't seem to think too much of the infamous Seth post that started it all

SethYazura

Did I mention that seth's post 8

does

sound forced?
Anyway, that post is honestly worth nothing right now. His later posts are a lot more condemning. Post 86 seems quite defensive, stating that he "made it sound strange on purpose" seems a little unbelievable. His reasons for voting murph are also a little worrying: "If we don't lynch Murph now, we are just going to lynch him later because of how dangerous he sounds.
How about we lynch him now and start from there."
That is not a good reason to lynch anyone ever, and the spurring on of a flash-lynch is also nothing good. As town the only reason to justify his actions being that he's from another site where this is common in their meta, if he can provide games if this is the case I'll seriously reconsider. As scum it looks like he's possibly opportunistically jumping onto a popular suspect and trying to get a quick mislynch.

Post 90 doesn't help either: "sadly I can't tell you my secrets" here he claims his first post has some hidden (ever so obviously "pro-town") intention that he can't speak of right now. I have seen scum do this a lot, it makes it seem like you've got something going on and if you're lucky gets people off your back as a result. Read his first post for yourself, there's no way that's moving the game forward or got some super secret intent. Really. Common sense is something I'm known for as a player, more people should apply it. Him also adding a layer of WiFoM by stating he wouldn't do this as scum (so he therefore must be town) seems dodgy too. His most recent post 125 indirectly implies that he's town, it looks like him giving reads but really this post doesn't hold much at all.

Seth, is looking really dodgy right now. Scum.

Now this is the first post where he shows his reasoning as to why he thinks that Seth is scum, which honestly doesn't really look like he is grasping at straws it he has good reasons for an early case.

I'm trying to lure scum to jump on the Murph lynch train, unfortunately the situation changed and turned against me, it's not for the bad though.
UNVOTE: Murph
I'm not surprised I'm at L-2 now, no one wants a person who hides information from town and suggests flash lynching with a lack of reasoning.
The reason I made that first post was to try to distinguish scum from town, how a scum and town would react to an odd doublevote post, this will be useful for me in the future.

This sounds really weak, and really feels like you trying to correct an earlier mistake to avoid pressure for it. Your spinning a wonderful narrative around you, except I'm afraid it has some flaws. That first post being a reaction test is absolute nonsense, it is obviously a RVS like any other. There is nothing significant about being the second player on an RVS wagon what so ever, nor did anyone react to you doing so thus "it being useful in the future" is utter crumpets as well. This sounds like your starting to trip yourself on the threads you've spun with lies. It's like exclaiming "you shall see the use of my actions in due time" after stealing someone's snack, it simply doesn't add up.

From what I've observed so far only the ppl who has made the analysis of scum so far are town.

Rarely will you see a scum make a long-ass detailed analysis post, though RedCoyote feels really off with his analysis, that's not what I expect from an experienced town player!

My first game as scum (and second game here) fully consisted of me spinning huge analysis walls wherever I could. Newer players that draw scum often have the issue that they try

too

hard, and they as such often trip as a result. RedCoyote has barely posted and since that post of his a lot of new information has arisen, he's null.

So what exactly are the specific results of your experiment?

The expirement will be worthless until the game is finished

Now then, logically speaking: if the experiment is useless until the end of the game why are you unable to explain what it is now? Experiments often take time before a conclusion can be drawn, however the methods used to draw a conclusion are known beforehand. Otherwise you're speaking crumpets as I suspect you are.

Ok let me ask you something more specific what did you mean in post 125 ? So are you just saying that everyone that had posted an analysis isn't scum period?

This is a newbie game, a game with the majority of players lacking experience, tell me the chances of a scum newbie making an analysis as detailed as wgeurts.
Raskol did say at one point that he loss the second newbie game because the scum was inactive and he only read the active posters and lynched all of them, who were all towns, let's apply that experience into this game, what if Hoppic and RedCoyote was the inactive scum?

The chances of a scum newbie making analysis as good as mine is small, however none of them have and I'm no newbie (neither is Rask or RC) so you've officially received no information as such. Congratulations. Keep making this stuff up.
The game's only just begun, way too short to start declaring people are lurkers.

It's not only luring people, it's to see how Murph would react to players voting him.

He continues to base his reads off of similar reasoning as his previous ones and doesn't contradict himself, he cites his own experience which I assume means something but isn't the be all end all

@Seth: Are you intentionally performing a Slayer's Gambit? If not, how does your experiment differ from said gambit?

What I'm doing is exactly Slayer's Gambit, interestingly enough I'm not yet aware of such an existing strategy until now.

Then you not yet being able to receive results is crumpets. You're contradicting yourself.

The whole deal with the Slayer's Gambit kind of turned me a little away from Wguerts, since it does make sense that he can't receive results until the end game because he needs to see how people flip and what their original reactions were to his test. At this point I think that Wgeurts is confbiased to the max

This is where Seth starts getting annoyed and begins to insult people which Wgeurts seems to take as an admission of defeat and anti town since he isn't scumhunting, however Seth goes OMGUS and attacks Wgeurts so nothing super helpful between their interactions as they are both confbiased.

Now Wgeurts goes into full death tunnel mode and starts hard making cases about him and pretty much ignores everything else. One thing I noticed was that he changes his mind about 3 times on the topic of a RC/Hoppic scum team where sometimes he thinks it's super legit and sometimes he thinks its not possible, and when it says it is possible he is still scum reading Seth hard so I am not sure about that

He also likes to say that he will post things than doesn't which annoys me because of the hype I get when he's like "I'm going to post a wall tommorow guys" than I don't get one.

His posts D2 don't sit well with me especially his seeming change of heart in his read list


Than we have Radiant who has posted 14 times but only 4 have been related to the game in a way other than saying he is town. He enters and there are 10 straight posts of him doing basiaclly nothing but saying "Hey guys I'm town but I don't have a lot of time to work on this but I'm town" Than he procedes to vote Coyote putting him at L-1 with reasons that I don't particularly agree with specifically that waiting till people are on isn't a scumtell its just that he wants to interact with people and we also already discuessed that slip he made (I still think its a slip too but he gave reasons why it wasn't) But than again Kal is iffy but away, Radiant's slot is iffy so he can't vote him so he might have just gone the easiest way, voting Coyote and taking a reason that had already been brought up and disucessed and adding another side one. He than cites that his meta saying he is apathetic in all games so its ok, which seems iffy to me but I have never played with you before excpet for one ongoing game where you are pretty in to it, but that might just be Ranger. For his last post I don't even know what is going on I can't tell what you are saying is obv scum because his point about you joining a game and than having no time to post is fully valid, if you can't fully contribute than don't join. His second sentence seems completely NAI since I can see both town and scum doing it so no idea what you thought was super scummy there.

TL;DR and final read
I am 80% sure at this point that Wgeurts is scum based on his degrading play spanning D1 and D2, where he grew some contradictions as well as Radiant's current play in the slot.

My current scum list is
1. Kal
2. Radiant
3. Coyote

I am keeping my vote on Kal because that is the lynch that I would like to see today but I am also going to be V/LA until Friday afternoon so you guys are going to have to discuss this next lynch together, I would like it if you guys went back and ISO'ed Wgeurts/Radiant and take a look around before any one hammers

Pedit: Hoppic try taking a look through Wgeurts/Radiant slot, it is probably scummier than you currently think

Yeah. I had a look back and I agree that he does seem scummy. But there are no votes on him at all and only two days left, so I'm not sure why you're mentioning it. I don't think we could get a vote up in time anyway.

[Hoppic]

Oh god what Have I done ignore all that entire above post

?

[Hoppic]

So you're really going to go through with it? You're really going to lynch your IC...?

Lol, jk. It's been fun, Hoppic. No hard feelings, my friend. Just, in the future, if you choose to stick around and continue with the website, remember that the easiest/safest/least-soul-searching choice is not necessarily the best one. I think deep down a part of you knows that you're taking the easy way out.

It's been fun playing with all of you guys. I really think all of you will make great scummers. I'll see y'all in post-game.

VOTE: redcoyote

Thanks! If you're town, I'm really sorry.

[Hoppic]

I really don't know what to say, but I'm here. I'm town. Radiantcowbells was my top scum pick after yesterday, so yeah.

[Hoppic]

I'm kinda suspicious of alpaca, which probably means he's town. Kaladin is maybe scum. If Murphy is scum he's played really well, but now I'm thinking, he could be. I have a town read on raskolnikov, but that means nothing. My reads are completely useless.

[Hoppic]

But if one townie puts a vote on another townie, scum could jump on and the game's over so no townies should vote for now.

[Hoppic]

That should <i>pretty much</i> confirm me as town, given that i I was lying, there would be a 5 in 6 chance someone would be able to call me out on it.

Who did you target each night and why?

[Hoppic]

Where did you get 5/6 from?

[Hoppic]

If you're jailkeeper, then there's two scenarios possible: one where there is another town role that could confirm you, and one where there isn't. If you're lying, then there's someone who could counterclaim you in every scenario; so there's 100% chance of you being caught out lying if you are.

[Hoppic]

Ok. So kaladin has to be town. There's no way that I can see where it could be a trick.

That means that every single wagon so far has been on townies: Seth, redcoyote, Wgeurts, and kaladin. Scum have been feeling pretty safe.

So Murphy, alpaca, raskolnikov. Only one is town.

Also, they only need to pursuade one townie out of three. They have the advantage atm.

[Hoppic]

Both days there were two town wagons. So easy for scum. All they needed to do was lay low and look out for power roles. But not TOO low. Not as low as kaladin, who was making people suspicious.

The first day they killed Simoyd, who was being strongly town read, but who also might have had a power role because he was so engaged in the play. On the second day, they killed radiantcowbells. Not sure why, and it depends on their alternatives. They only had three alternatives. Kaladin, who would have seen next in line for lynching, me who hammered two townies (sorry), and a third person. Why not the third person?

For example, if the third person was alpaca, he was being widely town read. So was raskolnikov, so why not them in preference to radiantcowbells? Or Murphy? Maybe they wanted to be unobvious for fear of being blocked.

[Hoppic]

Okay, I've read the entire thread twice now. Once to recap and the second time to try to figure out pairings.
Whomever you both are, you've done well to disguise yourselves. And for the record, Kal if not for your claim, and the lack thereof a counterclaim, you'd still be my strongest scum read.

Hop - You have been listed as suspect by just about everyone that is dead. You've managed to straddle the fence while being the hammer on both lynches. Uncanny. You also spent most of D2 rehashing Seth's play.
Alpaca - You have been universally read as town by almost everyone for the entire game. You've engaged in direct conversations while presenting a town front. You definitely have come across as Teflon. Almost too polished.
Ras - I've read you as null for most of the game. Although I've agreed with you a lot, there is an underlying current of distrust I cannot shake. With that said, you've been the most engaging D3.

There is a common thread between two of you that continues to evade me.

What I'd like is for each of you to give an assessment of each of the remaining players.

Yeah, and those dead players were really bad at picking out scum. It's only been townies up for lynching all along. I'll go back and make some comments.

[Hoppic]

Ok so I just caught up and I think that Murph has been a little defensive but only because he was called out on some things which wouldn't be good just to leave alone. He was possibly overly defensive but I am going to keep that tucked away in my memory for later analysis.

I am tempted to start pointing fingers at people however I think that D1 is mostly about talking semantics about posts and so on this point I have to say that I am a little confused at Seth making a post sound strange on purpose and than covering it up as it being his 'secret', although that may also be entirely valid. I think that Simoyd's questions were good ones and on that note I have to say that on post 33 I am not convinced as KS having the same opinion as someone is a scumtell, although it is mildly suspicious you can't change up your opinions every time if you don't state them first to appear as not just simply agreeing instead of holding the same beliefs.

As for post 34 I think that the third sentence was a bit iffy "possibly" but in the end might just be a way to get conversation started D1.

I am extremely non committal right now since I I personally think that everything said so far could be taken either way, now the nest step is to cross check what people say in the future with suspicions I already hold for them.

Alpaca's first post. He names Murphy straight up, and says he's defensive. That's very bold play if they're scum together. He doesn't mention Raskolnikov at all, which seems more likely to me, for one scum to completely not mention another scum.

[Hoppic]

Ok sorry I was away today and part of yesterday however I am back for hopefully many posts in the future.

VOTE: SethYazura

Since he doesn't have a vote on him and certainly deserves one. No intent to lynch at this point.

Just wondering why would you vote someone without intent to lynch, I mean you have said that you think that he is the most scummy out of everyone and than you voted him because he doesn't have a vote yet but you don't have any intent to lynch him? Shouldn't voting for people be reserved for actually wanting to lynch them. Like its open to change the vote later but why vote without intent.

Alpaca's second post. Very wordy. He could have just said the first 11 words, but he repeats himself several times. Nervous.

[Hoppic]

Honestly I have to say I like what he has posted so far. It seems unconvoluted but also long but hesaid this is his main game so putting in lots of effort isn't surprising. He has also given much to think about and so far I have a town ish feeling from him

This is alpaca when Simoyd asked him directly his opinion about Raskolnikov. He has a town read on him. Idk. It's early in the game to have a town read on someone, but some players do get town reads early. Look at redcoyote for example.

[Hoppic]

So on the whole matter of Seth, since it's looking pretty precarious for him right now, is that I personally thought his first post was just dumb and I was willing to overlook it as a stupid first post thing to say to sound mysterious or something only on the condition that he than get serious when he next posted but basically he has posted since has been more cryptic with little helpful explanation afterwards. Unless he explain adequately why he did everything I'm going to have to vote for him.

VOTE: SethYazura

Pedit: Dang it Seth the second I say you dont explain you start explaining, all that typing for nothing. Anyways could you explain what you meant in post125 and I shall unvote until I hear what you have to say

UNVOTE: SethYazura

I can beleive that luring scum was a stategy that couldn't be shared at the time but I still don't like how you worded things and sarcastically answered in post90

Okay, this is weird. He votes for Seth, but then it seems that while he's preparing the post, Seth explains his comments and he unvotes. Why not just delete the message and start again? He wants people to see that he voted.

[Hoppic]

Quick recap:

Against policy lynch ✓
For player replacement ✓
Request more participation ✓

Are you against policy lynches in general or in this specific scenario?

Also side note am I supposed to see an emote at the bottom or is it supposed to be just text?

Alpaca's first interaction with Murphy. What's the point of the first question? Maybe just to get the conversation going.

[Hoppic]

So for anyone who wanted to know since I was curious this is the current VC I'm pretty sure
Seth (3) - Simon, Wgeurts, Alpaca
Hoppic (1) - Coyote
Wgeurts (1) - Seth
Coyote (4) - Hoppic, Murph, Kal, Rask
(super sorry to the mod if me posting this angers you, not trying to steal your job I swear)

Voting list. He's third on the Seth wagon, and redcoyote is at L-1. He could have switched over, although it would have been suspicious and didn't. On the other hand, he's posting a lot in a nervous kind of way.

Also, Raskolnikov was first to vote for coyote, I think. I'll go back and check when I do his ISO.

[Hoppic]

You see I am defienetly feeling a coyote vote now after that last promise but I really would like him to explain himself before I vote since he is at l-1

Ohh he's definitely feeling a coyote vote. But he doesn't vote.

[Hoppic]

^because redcoyote was at L-1 at the time, which was fair enough.

2-3 hours after alpaca expressed his feeling for the redcoyote vote, raskolnikov hopped off the redcoyote wagon and shifted to Seth, taking Seth to L-1.

End of DP1, there was ZERO interaction between alpaca and raskolnikov, from what I can see from alpaca's ISO. Alpaca consistently read raskolnikov as town and only said that maybe raskolnikov was experienced enough to fake town really well.

There was also minimal interaction between alpaca and Murphy, although because alpaca opened his first post with suspicions of Murphy, I'm thinking they're less likely to be scum buddies than alpaca and raskolnikov IF alpaca is scum.

Voting, DP1. Alpaca voted for Seth and unvoted in the same post, then he voted for Seth a bit later. He said he was feeling redcoyote as scum but never shifted his vote across.

Overall feeling from reading DP1: alpaca's posts have been way too fluffy. I can really see him as scum. He introduced no new ideas for scum hunting and just went along with other people's ideas. Given this general cooperative, non-confrontational approach, it seems unlikely (but not impossible) that he's buddies with murphy. After just this DP1 reading of Alpaca's ISO, I'm thinking Alpaca-Raskolnikov, but I have a lot more to read and my judgment in this game so far has been terrible.

[Hoppic]

IMG MURPH not Murphy. Sorry! I've been getting that wrong the whole game!

[Hoppic]

I'm looking through Murph's ISO now, and something I've noticed is that redcoyote was the first to call Murph out for being defensive (post 70), and Alpaca's first post was 91, so he wasn't coming up with his own idea there. I think it's unlikely that he would back up someone else's suspicions on a scum buddy so early.

[Hoppic]

[quote="In post 81, Raskolnikov
@Murph
You think the suspicions against you are ridiculous.
Among these do you think any are malicious, or just mistaken?

quote]


This game is about suspicions. We are trying to identify discrepancies, contradictions and anomalies for further evaluation.
I expect scrutiny as I will scrutinize each of you.

Hopefully there won't be malice intended or otherwise. It's unnecessary, imo.

As to mistaken ? That's for me to determine as it could just as well be an agenda.

Early Murphy-Raskolnikov interaction. It's kinda null, but I'm just noting it.

[Hoppic]

@ Rasko

Thank you for the constructive criticism. Also, I'll try the :code: for quotes in the future.

As to suspects ? I'm formulating opinions as each players joins the game.

Kal - Early sheepish behavior and smarmy explanations. Not feeling town here.
guerts - While we disagreed on Seth's early post, we've had common thoughts about Kal's posts. Null
Sim - I like that Sim asks good questions however I dislike the answering questions with questions responses. Null
Ras - Good observations thus far. Too early still.
Red - As the IC, I find it difficult to understand Red ignoring an entire conversation and then cherry picking a single statement to squat on. OMGUS null
Seth - When called out for a forced first post, Seth implied secret reasons and then promptly tried to divert attention away by creating a shiny object. - Scum

Need more participation from Hop and Alpaca

Rip away

Murph thinks that Seth is scum. It's his only scum read, but he's not voting. His opinions on Raskolnikov and Alpaca are positive/neutral and nothing.

[Hoppic]

I think you may have stepped in it, Hop.

I'll be than happy to explain any post of mine that you don't understand.

Thanks okay, what do you mean by saying that I've "stepped in it"? Stepped in what?

@ Hop

@Hoppic: Raskolnikov has posted a lot. Does he not stand out a bit too? What do you think?

I can't really understand what she (?) is saying. A few players in this game are like that for me: raskolnokiv, you a bit and Murphy. Maybe others. I can understand individual words and sentences but overall I don't get it.

This whole post comes across as disingenuous.

Therefore, in this instance, "stepping in it" refers to you making a statement that reads as contrived in an effort to seem as though you are stating something useful. ( you just stepped into a pile of dung )

Both Sim and I said we'd explain any post that you didn't understand. Yet you have not posted, quoted nor bumped any posts for clarification.

This whole reaction to my post saying I didn't understand Raskolnikov, Murphy and Simoyd. It DOES seem excessively defensive. Also, I took a bit of time to explain what I meant and he totally ignored my explanation. His reaction seemed null to me at the time, but now it's interesting that I named him and Raskolnikov together and he reacted like that. Raskolnikov did not react at all, I think.

[Hoppic]

Murph goes hard after redcoyote for trying to form a town bloc with Simoyd and Raskolnikov. Votes redcoyote. Does not change his vote. There is quite a bit of friendlyish interaction between Raskolnikov and Murph. They are both very active players. Almost nothing between Murph and Alpaca.

Idk, after DP1 I'm thinking if Murph is scum, he's good at it. I like the way his opinions keep changing. First he suspected Seth, then not, then he kinda did again. That seems townish to me, but Idk. He could easily be scum, I guess.

[Hoppic]

Ugh. I HAVE NO IDEA who scum is.

I'm looking back, and I kinda read Raskolnikov as scum, but he seems so logically town.

The only weird thing is early on when he (or she) does that weird thing with redcoyote and murph. Redcoyote votes for Murph, saying that he's overly defensive, but it's early in DP1 and there are votes going every which way. Raskolnikov overreacts and votes for redcoyote. That's okay, but the weird thing is afterwards, when Raskolnikov backs down from that opinion SEVERAL TIMES. It's completely unnecessary, because who cares? People are paranoid and vote this way and that way all the time. Then, there's a lot of interaction between Murph and Raskolnikov over coding. Then, when Murph overreacts to my post about not understanding them, it seems like a distraction. Then Raskolnikov goes after Seth for a bit, and that also seems like a distraction because neither one of them pursues it any further.

Anyway, I'll pull up the posts to show you what I mean.

[Hoppic]

I don't really feel like this game is worth much analysis yet, but to help get it rolling I'll force myself to over-analyse!

I'll also explain something minor that influences my reads (and other peoples I think, even if they don't say it): potential to fake.
Basically, if I think someone is more capable of faking towniness I will be more reserved with that read.
An example being, if we had an IC like nachomamma who I've seen really good at scumplay I would never feel comfortable putting them beyond mild town, even if they "seem" really towny.
This can be from experience, but also from "feel"; if someone sounds really sophisticated and analytical they can feel really scary regardless of experience.
Usually I feel really confident with most of my newbie townreads and don't even discuss them much for it, and hopefully this will help you understand my approach here.

Extremely tentative reads
Simoyd - newbie-townish
Murph - very much into the game, definitely thinking. A tiny bit scary tbh, especially from how confident he sounds.
yogurts - Solid posts, agree in general with his reads. I thought his initial questioning of kala was to help start the game, however at this point he seems to actually suspect him. Asking good questions to all three of murph,sim,kala though I'd almost expect him to vote kala for his suspicion after asking why murph didn't vote. Moderate town, adjusted from his extensive experience.
KaladinStormblessed - feels a bit guarded. First post is actually okay, the rest are answering questions/explaining himself. Pretty null; can't townread him so far from what he's done, but this can go either way more-so than the others posted.
Redcoyote - Throws a lot of shade on yogurts which I don't agree with. I don't understand their reasoning for their vote on murph (how was that overly defensive?).
Not enough information {Hoppic, SethYazura, peoplewhohaven'tposted}

VOTE: Redcoyote
If he voted someone for minor things/posts while admitting they were minors, I wouldn't mind. But I feel like he's exaggerating how bad certain posts are to provide backing for his vote. But it's not necessary to be confident in your vote this early in the game, it actually is supposed to be weak and tentative; you don't have to stretch things...

Here at the bottom, the vote for redcoyote. So far so good.

[Hoppic]

Well, this is embarrassing, I think I jumped to conclusions a bit.

here wot? But then, s/he totally backs up her original opinion:

So I didn't like you including p47 before voting him because it feels like you used that as part of your vote, when I don't think p47 is in any way scummy.
And I didn't like you voting him for p60 because you cropped the quote and the part you had quoted isn't even bad, so it felt like you were hypocritical as well telling him not to "make something out of nothing".
But actually looking again at 60 I do think it's sort-of scummy?

Yet you've suggested that each participant weigh in with an opinion sans guert and, more importantly, me.

Makes me wonder what your intent is and why these two post ?

because the way he says it it feels like he's trying to assign scum intent to the rather innocent question by sim and the way in which he asks feels a bit malicious ( as opposed to asking it more normally normally ).
But I still don't even think it's that bad for him to be curious about sim asking around about his posts. If defensiveness is what you're interested in I think kali is a bit defensive as well, but I don't think you said anything there.
I personally don't think defensiveness is that much of a scumtell, maybe a hint of one but I've seen a fair bit of townpeople in my other games who are just stylistically defensive.

but then says it was wrong again:

Okay, the murph vote is fine.

I still don't like what feels like the doubt put to wguerts; I don't think 14 is forced but actually a reasonable observation, and I think scumreading the "does" emphasis/bolding is pretty ridiculous.
But eeeeeeh still not as bad a post as I thought it was.

I just don't know what to make of it. Like I said at the beginning, Raskolnikov makes no sense to me. What IS all this?

[Hoppic]

Okay, I've read the entire thread twice now. Once to recap and the second time to try to figure out pairings.
Whomever you both are, you've done well to disguise yourselves. And for the record, Kal if not for your claim, and the lack thereof a counterclaim, you'd still be my strongest scum read.

Hop - You have been listed as suspect by just about everyone that is dead. You've managed to straddle the fence while being the hammer on both lynches. Uncanny. You also spent most of D2 rehashing Seth's play.
Alpaca - You have been universally read as town by almost everyone for the entire game. You've engaged in direct conversations while presenting a town front. You definitely have come across as Teflon. Almost too polished.
Ras - I've read you as null for most of the game. Although I've agreed with you a lot, there is an underlying current of distrust I cannot shake. With that said, you've been the most engaging D3.

There is a common thread between two of you that continues to evade me.

What I'd like is for each of you to give an assessment of each of the remaining players.

Yeah, and those dead players were really bad at picking out scum. It's only been townies up for lynching all along.

I'll go back and make some comments.

This is an odd statement considering we haven't located any scum as of yet and my point was that several

DEAD

players had you listed. It wasn't only the lynched players. Those NK'd also are included.


-1

I said "up for lynching" by which I mean considered for lynching. Scum is you, rask or alpaca, so whoever scum is, they were never really considered by the dead players. Top scum reads were Seth, redcoyote, kaladin and Wgeurts, all townies.

[Hoppic]

I scumread redcoyote for his entire post there initially, but then I realized the murph vote which was part of it wasn't actually that bad. I still didn't like red because it read to me that he scumread wgeurts on essentially BS in that post and I still scumread him, but not as much as before since I had misunderstood and sort of jumped to conclusions with the murph vote reasoning.

Could you please explain the misunderstanding to me again, and especially, why we're you embarrassed?

[Hoppic]

For the record opening up with suspicions on someone which you never follow up on or mention again is actually worse association than nothing. Scum feel compelled to do some distancing out of paranoia whereas ignoring someone entirely is usual if they're a townread.

What are you referring to?

[Hoppic]

@Murph. Could you please explain what kind of person you are Irl, like, how you interact with people, personality. Are you Irish? (Name). Because I just can't get a feeling for you.

Same for raskolnikov. Alpaca seems like a consistent type. I don't know if that's a scumtell or not, but it strange for me because this conversation has been going on for days. Let's talk feelings.

I feel a bit frustrated by this game. We've done badly, and there's a kinda shallow feeling to it. Nobody has been really funny, and the emotions have been weirdly flat.

[Hoppic]

Personally. I'm stressed in real life. There's a lot happening, and I feel like I'm doing a lot of things badly, so coming here and getting mislynches isn't helping. This game has been going for a long time and if we mislynch again today it would really suck.

Feelings, see?

[Hoppic]

How are you all feeling? Talk to me.

Also, kaladin, what are you thinking?

[Hoppic]

It was good playing with you Wgeurts hopefully we shall play together again.

@Hoppic - I have been strong townreading Wgeurts since about mid way through the game because I think that his analyse was good and he was explaining his thoughts. His strong push on Seth could look suspicious since he turned up town but he had good reason to vote him and was backing it up with analyse of Seth's previous posts he wasn't just floundering trying to get a town mislynch. I have been strong town reading Rask since about the beginning of the game since I see him as trying to help other players. He is super laid back and helpful, he hasn't done anything scummy aside from switch votes but he explains why he does in post 597, his thoughts seem genuinely town to me.

Now after having said all of that I still believe it is possible for them to be effectively faking and I wouldn't be able to tell the difference since I don't really have the experience to tell but they are both experienced, But I am going to stick with my town reads on them because thats the vibe I've been getting off them the entire game. For more context in case you just ISO'd me that was a direct response to Seth's post 164 where Seth basically said that scum wouldn't be posting detailed analysis and that people posting huge walls were most likely town since this was a newbie game, but the 2 people he choose for the example were Rask and Wgeurts who are both SE's so if anyone was capable of faking town in this game it would be Wgeurts, Rask, and Coyote. Just something to keep in mind since they are all experienced

I just really like this post. I'm not sure why. Seems townie. Good explanations.

[Hoppic]

In a world where red isnt scum I would be concerned about hoppic if only from POE and that their interactions pretty much exclude them being a team so I don't get red vanishing on this read overnight.

Vanishing reads overnight often come from prs. Didn't it cross your mind that he might be the cop?

[Hoppic]

@alpaca. You seem to be defending redcoyote in dp2, especially from post 675 onwards. Why? You scum read him most of dp1. Did your opinion change?

[Hoppic]

What I meant is I am not going to be voting anyone who has a vote on them already since i dont want to put anyone at l-2 right now until I get more explanation however my vote on kal remains as a hope that he will swoop in and post something of substance so I can re evaluate my read on him.

You said you weren't going to vote because you didn't want to put anyone at L1, but you ended up sitting on your kaladin vote the whole day. So who was it that you weren't voting for?

[Hoppic]

Here's a question that should clarify it once and for all:

If you can manage to get me mislynched today, will you still push to lynch Kal tomorrow ?

How would that question clarify anything? Could you please explain your reasoning?

[Hoppic]

Ugh. Murph taking offense at the word ignorant seems fake because he's already tunneling. I think, if you're town and scum is trying to frame you, you think, haha nice try. It's only if a townie insults you do you take it personally. And Murph, at that point, was sure redcoyote was scum. So why take offense?

Also, notably in that interaction, alpaca hopped in to defend redcoyote and tell murph to not be offended.

[Hoppic]

I would like to see each of you post your list from scum to town.

I think it's important that we all put our cards on the table now so that we can move forward.


TIA

Of you, Raskolnikov and alpaca, two are scum. Two scum, one scum buddy relationship, one townie. All three of you have 2/3 probability of being scum. You're more likely scum than not. In terms of voting, I don't think we're there yet. I'm not interested in negotiating for the vote yet.

In the meantime, could you please answer the questions I asked you in posts 942 and 949? That would really help. Thanks.

[Hoppic]

@raskolnikov, could you please answer the questions I asked in posts 940, 941 and 946? Thanks.

[Hoppic]

Ugh. Murph taking offense at the word ignorant seems fake because he's already tunneling. I think, if you're town and scum is trying to frame you, you think, haha nice try. It's only if a townie insults you do you take it personally. And Murph, at that point, was sure redcoyote was scum. So why take offense?

Also, notably in that interaction, alpaca hopped in to defend redcoyote and tell murph to not be offended.

Hey Hop, where I come from, calling someone ignorant is offensive, period.

Where is it that you come from?

AND again in context,

Goodness, Murph, you truly are either ignorant or devious. I really hope I'm not the only one that sees this...

There is no room for ambiguities. He did not say my statement nor reasoning was ignorant. It was directed at me as a person.

I really don't care for the way you keep cherry picking out of context. You cannot paint me as scum with such tactics.

I'm going through ISOs and I'm asking people to explain things that seem weird. I'm going through everything. If you look at my posts, I've actually asked you fewer questions than I've asked alpaca and raskolnikov. I'm putting pressure on all three of you, because I believe that two of you are scum.

So why would you say I'm trying to paint you as scum? I'm pointing out things that seem strange BECAUSE I want you to explain them. That will help clarify. It's not all about you either. If I can understand where you were coming from, it will help me understand that post alpaca made, post 760. What do you make of that post, by the way?

[Hoppic]

LoL Hop,

Did you read anything after that post ? Looks like you are cherry picking for the sake of looking busy.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt but you really should read in context and not just ISO



Red's theory had holes. I was poking him to commit to an agenda which he finally did.

It's not hard at all, but there's no sense in letting you attempt to trap me into committing to something without all the information available to me. There's a possibility that both scum were on the Seth wagon, though I find it very unlikely. However, were the town to lynch you, you flip town and we are provided with no other relevant information that would suggest we do otherwise, then, yes, I think it would be in the town's best interest to lynch KS.

Which lead to:

Here's were I am at:
I think you and Kal are both scum. I believe that you've devised this plan in attempt to not only rid yourself from me but to also clear Kal since there is no way the town will follow you tomorrow after my reveal.


VOTE: Red

Is your contention that every vote on/off the Seth wagon yesterday based on WIFOM? Or do you think there was merit to the individual votes themselves?

I understand your vote. I believe you're being short-sighted and letting your pride cloud your judgment, but your rationale is sound insomuch as that's a reasonable theory. I hope others feel the same way.

So, as you can see, context makes sense whereas ISO cherry picking creates confusion. Scum love confusion, btw.

Could you please explain what your point is in posting these quotes? I can't understand what you're trying to say.

[Hoppic]

Are we allowed to discuss games that are finished?

Because I'm looking at a player's previous game and his/her meta seems quite different to me. Can I talk about that?

[Hoppic]

Murphy if you're town do you know just how difficult you make this?
I go through everything here and hate how defensive you play and your tone and how it felt you were approaching and treating your scumreads and essentially nitpicking them and in how closed you've been with information.
And then I read your town game and everyone says they hate how defensive you play and you're tone and there you tunnel people and nitpick them and they flip town and then you get touchy on people saying things which can be seen as slightly offensive (similar to the reaction to red here) and people say the same thing about not liking how reserved you are with your information and accuse you of stonewalling. And you get mislynched and flip town there and I get the impression it's how any town games of you would go and still have no idea about how scum-you would be different.

And then I go to hoppic and I'm not sure if he's actually misunderstanding 90% of my posts because no one else expressed problems and the hoppic from midgame sounds good at critical thinking and it doesn't mesh with the newbcard but then I go to his last game and he's completely lost the entire time there as legit town and acts frustrated there the same way he's acting frustrated from being in lylo. And he self-doubts all his reads too and actually weakens his own cases with so many caveats which he doesn't really have any reason to do as scum unless it really is oscar level acting.

And it's just like fuck, this is impossible.

I'm new, but I don't think I've been playing the newbcard, because I've played mafia before on other sites and I don't feel new to the game, but definitely new to the rules and conventions on this site, but I don't think I've been playing that particularly.

Idk why it seems strange for me to say I'm not understanding stuff. What do other people say when they don't understand stuff - do they just pretend that they do? When I said that on day one, what was your initial reaction at the time, and how do you see it now? Because I don't remember you responding to it at all. It's at post 111, and Murph's reaction comes soon after that.

[Hoppic]

@Murph, yesterday when you were tunnelling redcoyote, who did you think his scum buddy might be?

[Hoppic]

It kinds of irks me that either everyone else understood these or I actually am confusing and nobody else actually read my posts and brought it up or pointed it out

It irks you that I'm confused but nobody else is? Isn't that always the way with confusion - some people are confused by stuff and other people aren't?

I

I scumread redcoyote for his entire post there initially, but then I realized the murph vote which was part of it wasn't actually that bad. I still didn't like red because it read to me that he scumread wgeurts on essentially BS in that post and I still scumread him, but not as much as before since I had misunderstood and sort of jumped to conclusions with the murph vote reasoning.

Could you please explain the misunderstanding to me again, and especially, why we're you embarrassed?

I think that was explained decently already but okay.
1. I read Red's post (70) and think it's terrible because he scumreads murph and wguerts and I don't see any of his points as valid (and I don't expect IC to screw up analysis that hard).
2. I go back and look at murph again and I don't think red's vote on him is that bad anymore; I thought 60 was innocent as my first impression but on next read I could see how people would dislike it. I didn't scumread murph then but I could see why other people did.
3. Based on that, what seemed like redcoyote quoting what looked like an innocent response and saying it was scummy (which I thought was the case, and it looked scummy af) was actually reasonable and I was mistaken to scumread him on that specifically.
4. Even without the murph vote (which was most of it), I still didn't like red's comments on wgeurts in that post which felt like discrediting wguerts on BS reasoning, and I still scumread red but I was a lot less sure than before.
5. Seeing what looked like an incredibly scummy post and then rereading and seeing I misunderstood parts of it and jumped to conclusions was embarrassing, especially from a personal standpoint since I thought I really caught IC-scum that early and I was on a high and then I saw I fucked up and it wasn't actually clear cut and the self doubt crept in and I switched to seth soon after.

I guess this sort of makes sense. Except that, I don't understand it from the emotional perspective. You're an experienced player and so is redcoyote. When you saw him doing something strange early on in the game, there are lots of possible reasons for it, right? He could be testing people out in various ways. He could be making himself look slightly scummy on purpose, which is a protective thing to do if you're town and a target, especially if he had a power role, to avoid being night-killed. There are lots of scenarios. And you would know that. Even if you thought what he was doing was scummy.

But then, it's so early in the game. Votes were going everywhere and none of them were serious, and redcoyote kinda made it clear that he was just putting pressure (he said he wasn't afraid of being confrontational), so it does seem strange to me that you saw it as THAT scummy - I mean, scummy enough to be embarrassed by finding it scummy.

But suppose that was even the case, that you did think you'd caught scum on page three of DP1. Why would you backtrack several times? Because nobody knew that you were that certain. You were just asking questions and putting pressure, which is normal. So why say you were embarrassed? Because even if you were wrong, redcoyote was at best null. He could still be scum. You could still be right in your reads, and later you thought he was scum anyway.

And, when you mislynched twice, you weren't as embarrassed as you were so early in the game with that scum read. Why not? Mislynching is more embarrassing than early suspicions. That's why it doesn't make emotional sense to me.

For the record opening up with suspicions on someone which you never follow up on or mention again is actually worse association than nothing. Scum feel compelled to do some distancing out of paranoia whereas ignoring someone entirely is usual if they're a townread.

What are you referring to?

That was in response to you talking about murph/alpaca associations; I was disagreeing that the early posts there are indicative of them not being partners. From my own experience scum more likely than not will throw in a brief mention consciously at some point (usually pointing out something dodgy but not making a big fuss) at a partner and then pretty much never returning to it; in practice I see them too self conscious about associations to completely up ignore reach other usually. Although yeah, it is wifom at this point; in general I only heavily rely on this research if its a big meaty exchange that DISPROVES an association (I think you/murph is essentially impossible for ex.).

Makes sense.

[Hoppic]

Yeah, going back and reading it in context, Murphy's defensiveness was the topic of the moment, and Alpaca was just commenting on that, so it's not a definite as I thought originally.

[Hoppic]

You asked:

Here's a question that should clarify it once and for all:

If you can manage to get me mislynched today, will you still push to lynch Kal tomorrow ?

How would that question clarify anything? Could you please explain your reasoning?

I explained.

where?

[Hoppic]

Sorry okay. So you thought kal and redcoyote were scum together. I still don't understand why you asked the question. If you thought that, how did his answer help you understand anything? Was it just a rhetorical question?

[Hoppic]

But suppose that was even the case, that you did think you'd caught scum on page three of DP1. Why would you backtrack several times? Because nobody knew that you were that certain. You were just asking questions and putting pressure, which is normal. So why say you were embarrassed? Because even if you were wrong, redcoyote was at best null. He could still be scum. You could still be right in your reads, and later you thought he was scum anyway.

You're right in that I didn't have to say it, in that I could have kept it to myself. But I stand by the feeling being justified when you think you have things figured out and are on an ego high and it all slips away and you're back to normal, nullscum/slightly scummy means almost nothing applied to IC since you know they'd be very good with scum and you having really caught them that early isn't actually that likely.

You stand by the feeling being justified. Of course. The part I find confusing, though, is that there was nothing resembling an ego high in the post where you voted for redcoyote. In fact, you said "extremely tentative reads", and so it was strange when you said you were embarrassed in the next post. The thing is, I found that confusing, and I think ANYONE would have found that confusing, and yet, when I said so, you said you were irked because nobody else was confused. Idk.

I WAS wondering if he was certain PRs in d1 mostly but I found his logic really bad especially with the 1-off 1-on in day 2 (which is ironic because its true if murph is scum) and I didn't think he'd be intentionally playing with flawed logic to look scummy as PR. PRs look scummy often by acting reserved like kala and trying not to bring attention to themselves (defensive/survivalistic) but towards the end the belief that red was acting that way to look scummy on purpose as PR didn't seem plausible; faking that logic as a PR ploy was way too creative at that point and I dismissed it.

This makes sense. It's different to what you said before, though, when you said that you hadn't considered that he might be cop. I suppose when you said "no" you could have meant "not really".

[Hoppic]

Your efforts on D3 has been nothing but a weak attempt to look like scum hunting.

I don't like this. You've just come off a major mislynch where you tunnelled our townie IC. I have too, and it really makes me question my reads. But here you are all confident and aggressive just as you were in the previous day. Aggression and tunnelling can be townie. We've seen that with wgeurts. But I don't think it happens two days in a row and at mylo.

If you're town, you really need to get yourself together, because I am town, and if you vote for me the game is over.

[Hoppic]

@alpaca. You seem to be defending redcoyote in dp2, especially from post 675 onwards. Why? You scum read him most of dp1. Did your opinion change?

What I meant is I am not going to be voting anyone who has a vote on them already since i dont want to put anyone at l-2 right now until I get more explanation however my vote on kal remains as a hope that he will swoop in and post something of substance so I can re evaluate my read on him.

You said you weren't going to vote because you didn't want to put anyone at L1, but you ended up sitting on your kaladin vote the whole day. So who was it that you weren't voting for?

I didn't want to put any of the people who had multiple scumreads on them at l-2 beause I was afraid that if I left they might be hammered however nobody had voted Kal yet and I really wanted an explantion from him so I kept my vote there. Mainly because I doubted he would be lynched until he explained but maybe he would be put at l-1 or l-2 and he would stop lurking and post

I mean, when you said you weren't going to vote for fear of putting people at L-1, was there someone that you would have voted for otherwise? Did you have someone in mind?

[Hoppic]

Ugh. Murph taking offense at the word ignorant seems fake because he's already tunneling. I think, if you're town and scum is trying to frame you, you think, haha nice try. It's only if a townie insults you do you take it personally. And Murph, at that point, was sure redcoyote was scum. So why take offense?

Also, notably in that interaction, alpaca hopped in to defend redcoyote and tell murph to not be offended.

Hey Hop, where I come from, calling someone ignorant is offensive, period.

Where is it that you come from?

AND again in context,

Goodness, Murph, you truly are either ignorant or devious. I really hope I'm not the only one that sees this...

There is no room for ambiguities. He did not say my statement nor reasoning was ignorant. It was directed at me as a person.

I really don't care for the way you keep cherry picking out of context. You cannot paint me as scum with such tactics.

I'm going through ISOs and I'm asking people to explain things that seem weird.

I'm going through everything. If you look at my posts, I've actually asked you fewer questions than I've asked alpaca and raskolnikov. I'm putting pressure on all three of you, because I believe that two of you are scum.

So why would you say I'm trying to paint you as scum? I'm pointing out things that seem strange BECAUSE I want you to explain them. That will help clarify. It's not all about you either. If I can understand where you were coming from, it will help me understand that post alpaca made, post 760. What do you make of that post, by the way?

Exactly why I've called you on it. ISOs are only part of the reread. You first need to read the entire thread in context. Mentally remember certain posts, or write them down, and then ISO them when you need to quote.

You cannot just ISO a single quote out of context and ask for an explanation. Not only is that just plain lazy, it's insulting. You are telling me you don't care to take the time to research your questions before you ask. Then you burden the player with the responsibility and if they don't, then you continue to bump your questions and badger them.

That's irresponsible and lazy play that leads to misunderstandings and mislynches.

As a scum, this would be painting a bad picture of a townie in attempt to portray them in a negative way, as scum, in an effort to garner support for a mislynch.

There are two scum among you, rask and alpaca. Only one of you is town. Unfortunately, the way the game has gone, all three of you have escaped pressure for most of the game, so there's not much to go on. I'm asking questions now. They are not stupid questions, because the likelihood of each of you being scum is high.

If you're town and I'm making you repeat yourself, then repeat yourself. If there's something that seems strange to me but not to you, explain it. It's not just me that's reading this, kaladin is also reading this and he's going to vote too.

If you are town, then help us out by seeming town. I'm surprised that you're not scum-hunting. Why aren't you asking us questions and trying to figure it out?

[Hoppic]

This makes sense. It's different to what you said before, though, when you said that you hadn't considered that he might be cop. I suppose when you said "no" you could have meant "not really".

no

So you mean you considered that he might be a power role, but not that he might be a cop?

[Hoppic]

Your efforts on D3 has been nothing but a weak attempt to look like scum hunting.

I don't like this. You've just come off a major mislynch where you tunnelled our townie IC. I have too, and it really makes me question my reads. But here you are all confident and aggressive just as you were in the previous day. Aggression and tunnelling can be townie. We've seen that with wgeurts. But I don't think it happens two days in a row and at mylo.

If you're town, you really need to get yourself together, because I am town, and if you vote for me the game is over.

That's fresh coming from you.

Every single post you bumped D3 was taken from ISO and without ever doing any of the research yourself, you've posted it out of context demanding explanations. The fact that you've "missed" so much information and have claimed to be confused is mind blowing.

Your claim of town is belied by you efforts, or better yet lack thereof, to look busy and they are falling far short.


I'm looking for reasons to believe who the townie is. You've done nothing to give me reason to believe it's you. The fact is, I find that you've given me clear reason to believe the opposite.

IMO, one down and one to go.

Well, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was "demanding explanations". I thought the context would be enough for people to understand that it's time to ask questions and put pressure on people. Yes, I've been asking questions out of ISO. Later, I will go back and read the whole thing. The purpose is just to see what people say and how they react, as well as to ask about specific issues. So far you've been extremely defensive. No surprises there.

Your meta has really changed from your previous game where you were town. There, you were really insecure about your reads. What's changed?

[Hoppic]

Ok no wait, you kinda change towards the end of that game. Still. There's a difference.

[Hoppic]

1. I have never used the word Stupid.
2. Do your research properly and hen if you have a question, ask. I won't do your work for you.
3. I have asked questions. You've also ignored my request for a list.

I did not ignore it. I responded in post 959.

4. I am scum hunting. I've also read the thread over twice. I've done the research. I've stated my findings. Getting a list from each of you allows me to probe further. You resistance only reinforces my belief that you are scum.
5. It's hardly tunneling when there are two of you amongst the three remaining options. It's more like I've isolated you as one.

Kettle, meet pot.

I actually think that wanting a list is a bit scummy. How would that help you right now? Why do you need it to "probe further"?

[Hoppic]

I don't know if I can link to another game, but for example post 1568 in Murphy's previous game as town. and YES I AM TAKING IT OUT OF CONTEXT. I'm sorry. But I can't imagine him making a post like this in the current game, can you? (by you I mean everyone)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p7881132

Here's what he said. Seems like a completely different meta to me.

My interpretation of honest effort and some of y'alls differs in that I don't feel the need to tear each post apart and force feed it back ad nauseum.
One example: I was told I hadn't posted for 3 days to which I took exception and several pages later was told that it didn't matter. No shit ?
Another example: I was called out, early in the game, because my sage appeared in-thread so I must be around and didn't answer a question fast enough. So :meta: it was dumb. I ignored it. Even as it was continuously brought up. This also came up recently again, to which I replied the obvious, "It's an open window" ffs.

Seriously, some questions are so redundant and contrived it made me think I wasn't posting concisely enough. Nope I checked, it's just a ritual that now has a name.

So, I get it. I may or may not contribute up to your standards and expectations, however, if I feel like I've already stated my point, Im not going to be playing into the "game".

And yeah, I'm shifting from asking questions to making a case. I think Murph is scum. Just that lack of curiosity. Not looking for associations. Change in certainty from his previous game despite the mislynch. He says he's read the thread twice, but where's the evidence? Where's the questions? And also, a lack of sympathy for MY questions. If he was town, I think he'd get the frustration and not knowing and getting it wrong two days in a row.

If I'm wrong, please say so. Argue with me.

[Hoppic]

Murph, I have no idea what you're trying to say. What do you mean when you say I've proven your point. What point?

I posted several times after being questioned that my post were concise and on point.

^ what does that sentence mean, and how is it relevant to what we're discussing?

You question how I could probe from that. Think about it. How would that work ? I think you know and have realized that once you've committed you'd be on the record and couldn't crawfish out if another wagon started.

Well, I suspect you, alpaca, and raskolnikov of being scum. I suspect all three of you. Of course.

But that makes no sense anyway, because even if I did have a preference list now, it could change at any time and I could crawfish (?) onto another wagon. But what do you mean by another wagon anyway? There's no wagon. Everyone's under suspicion. Although, I have to say, you're seeming really scummy right now.

[Hoppic]

Murph, what about you? I know I'm your top scum pick, but what about alpaca and Raskolnikov? Which one of them do you think is scum, and which is town, and why?

[Hoppic]

Your "meta" post. You said my game was different and you used examples saying I was playing differently. I said, thank you for proving my point for me and I posted examples from this game that you used from the previous game to show that once again, you are skimming the real content of this game.

Examples from this game that I used from the previous game? What are you talking about?

I'm really at a loss here, why do you continue to claim town and while posting absurd posts that when all is said and done, don't amount to anything that wasn't already available to read.

This is exactly what I was asking in the post you posted from my previous game. Thus proving the point for me.

So, your point is that what I'm posting is irrelevant? And I proved that by comparing your meta with a previous game? But why is looking at meta irrelevant?

No, but seriously, between Alpaca and Raskolnikov, which one do you think is scum and which is town? Humor me. Which?

[Hoppic]

@Murph. The point I was making about meta had nothing to do with conciseness or lack of it. It didn't really have anything to do with the point you were making in that post I quoted. It had to do with the way you were interacting with other players, and with your certainty.

In the previous game, you had a different style and way of talking. You seemed to be more self-conscious and considered the perspective of other people more. You weren't as confident in your reads. It's hard to put a finger on it, but it seems like a different meta to me. I put the quote in as an example. I can't imagine you saying something like that in this game. Not for the content, because I wasn't paying attention to that, just for the way of talking to people.

Because it's different, and you were town in that game, is part of the reason I'm reading you as scum now. So, is there another reason to explain why you're more certain in this game and interacting with people differently? Do you think there is a difference?

[Hoppic]

Ok so I'm sorry I wasn't here yesterday I got caugfht up ins something and Windows 10 decided to be that guy and restart for updates which made me lose my entire wall which when it was finished was 1600 something words long and I was so proud of it. So I hate Windows 10 and I will be re creating it in small scale over time.

The basis of it was in my mind I am very close to eliminating a Rask/Hoppic team in my mind which is pretty dangerous but both of you were on both the lynches and Hoppic hammered each time so I really don't think that a partnership between you exists, however, now that means I think that Murph is scummy which is kind of iffy for me since I see Hoppic as the scummiest and Rask and Murph are kind of tied for second in my mind. I think that Hoppic is the scummiest based on his hammering which in itself wouldn't have worried me too much but when we lynched Seth Wgeurts asked nobody to hammer until he got back and posted more but Hoppic did it anyways which defeats the purpose of him saying 'I will hammer unless someoen tells me not to'.

Wgeurts said he'd be back to comment more than 24 hours before I hammered, and in that time he did come back and comment, so I don't understand why that's a problem. I know he complained afterwards, but I think he was being unreasonable.

[Hoppic]

At first I thought Raskolnikov and Murphy could be scum mates bussing each other. It seemed likely. But now, I think this voting pattern is unnecessary if they're both scum. They're winning. They're way ahead. They wouldn't want to push it through to another day if they don't have to. So now I'm thinking that one of them is likely to be town, which means that Alpaca is scum.

On the other hand, though,

scum would know whether there's a bulletproof townie or not

. If there isn't, they would feel safe to claim it. So, if Murph is scum, he would know that he would be counterclaimed if he was faking it. That's why it seems strange that he would claim it and get counterclaimed, unless he's really confused about roles (unlikely, if he's had all these NPs to talk it over with his buddy), or that Raskolnikov is lying, which means that either Murph is town and Raskolnikov is scum, or that they're both scum together.

Or, Murph is being SUPER clever, and claiming bulletproof knowing that we would think that he wouldn't do it if he were scum. Is he that clever though? I don't think so, because if he was, he wouldn't be playing so scummy this day.

This is pointing to Raskolnikov being scum.

What do other people think?

[Hoppic]

Maybe I'm overestimating Murph. Maybe as scum he wouldn't figure out if there's bulletproof or not, although it's not hard. He seems sooooo scummy though.

[Hoppic]

but so did redcoyote. :/

[Hoppic]

You know, alpaca-raskolnikov actually makes psychological sense. They nked wgeurts, even though he seemed really scummy. Why? Raskolnikov and alpaca seemed better picks because they were so widely town read. Maybe they wanted to do something unusual to avoid the jailkeeper? But even so, wgeurts is a weird choice. But not if it's alpaca-raskolnikov, because we'd be a perfect townie threesome for them:

kaladin - the next obvious lynch, because redcoyote, our mislynched town IC, was voting for him.
me - good at hammering townies
Murph - really defensive, disruptive and scummy.

They saved us for the end game. It makes sense. But why would a scum team save raskolnikov?

[Hoppic]

Yeah, it could be a mistake. It's a weird mistake though.

[Hoppic]

I think Alpaca must be scum, then, since it's almost certain that either raskolnikov or murph is town.
I'm okay to vote for alpaca.

[Hoppic]

I think Alpaca must be scum, then, since it's almost certain that either raskolnikov or murph is town.
I'm okay to vote for alpaca.

[Hoppic]

I'm kinda suspicious of alpaca, which probably means he's town. Kaladin is maybe scum. If Murphy is scum he's played really well, but now I'm thinking, he could be. I have a town read on raskolnikov, but that means nothing. My reads are completely useless.

Now looking back I think that this was a little weird because he says NOW he thinks that Murph could be scum even though he has never townread him and has been scum reading him starting in post 666 where he said that if Coyote was town than he would strong FOS Murphy, Kaladin and Raskolnikov if Coyote flipped town but now we know that Kal is conftown so at this point he wsa scumreading Rask and Murph, than he mentions it again in post 702 where he says Murph could be scum. The few times that Hoppic has mentioned Murph he has basically said that "well he could be scum" than never votes him.

Until today, I didn't have a scum read on murph. That's different from knowing he's town like, for example, with kaladin. At the start of the day, I knew that two of you were scum, so yeah, a town vibe doesn't mean much.

Of course he could be scum, although it's seeming less likely, since I'm 99% sure you're scum, and you're going after him. Although maybe you're doing that to be clever, and it's Raskolnikov that's town. I hope so, because I'd rather win with Raskolnikov, because he's so much more polite.

[Hoppic]

But, somehow rask-alpaca seems more likely than murph-alpaca. And the counter claim. And idk, would scum be so crazy and rude at lylo? Unlikely

[Hoppic]

Also, I cannot see Ras's scum partner joining on my wagon. It'd be a dead give away for tomorrow.

If you're town and get lynched, there is no tomorrow.

[Hoppic]

I'm kinda suspicious of alpaca, which probably means he's town. Kaladin is maybe scum. If Murphy is scum he's played really well, but now I'm thinking, he could be. I have a town read on raskolnikov, but that means nothing. My reads are completely useless.

Now looking back I think that this was a little weird because he says NOW he thinks that Murph could be scum even though he has never townread him and has been scum reading him starting in post 666 where he said that if Coyote was town than he would strong FOS Murphy, Kaladin and Raskolnikov if Coyote flipped town but now we know that Kal is conftown so at this point he wsa scumreading Rask and Murph, than he mentions it again in post 702 where he says Murph could be scum. The few times that Hoppic has mentioned Murph he has basically said that "well he could be scum" than never votes him.

Until today, I didn't have a scum read on murph. That's different from knowing he's town like, for example, with kaladin. At the start of the day, I knew that two of you were scum, so yeah, a town vibe doesn't mean much.

Of course he could be scum, although it's seeming less likely, since I'm 99% sure you're scum, and you're going after him. Although maybe you're doing that to be clever, and it's Raskolnikov that's town. I hope so, because I'd rather win with Raskolnikov, because he's so much more polite.

In post 666 which I mentioned earlier you said if Coyote flips town than you strong FOS Murph and last time I checked Coyote flipped town so evidently you were scumreading him earlier

Townies, please notice this. He claims he knows I'm scum, but he's fussing around with stuff like this. It's for your benefit. It's the best he's got. If he was town, he'd be trying to figure out murph/raskolnikiv, but he's not. Because he's scum. Let's see if he does now that I've pointed it out. Just as he started asking more questions after I suspected him for not doing so in dp1.

[Hoppic]

You have played very well for your first game, no question.

[Hoppic]

Well, here goes
VOTE: murph

Oh well. I think you're wrong and we have a whole week, but it's been a few hours and mafia haven't jumped on it yet. Still.

[Hoppic]

Okay. So it can't be raskolnikov-alpaca because if it was, they would have won already.

That means Murphy MUST be scum. Am I missing anything?

[Hoppic]

Okay kaladin agrees and kaladin is town. Gulp. Third hammer lucky.

[Hoppic]

Crossed fingers

[Hoppic]

VOTE: Murph

[Hoppic]

VOTE: AlpacaAlpaca