Newbie 1724 ~ Endgame

[LicketyQuickety]

@frog, you ever play at SC2?

[LicketyQuickety]

Thor is already taking the lead in this game. I expected this, but didn't expect Thor to be so strong against a single person. Don't know that I like that as it can choke the content people might offer and possibly create a dynamic where no one thinks except Thor and the rest of Town doesn't know what to do so they just follow what seems easy. That said, its still really early in the game.

[LicketyQuickety]

...Wooper (WHO CAN USE ICE PUNCH, WHILE HAVING NO ARMS!)

ice bodyslam

there is seldom more than one vote (but we do have two votes on pkmsilver )

Honestly, I understand why someone would vote for them (RVS), but two is a tad bit suspicious, though it may be a coincidence.

In my first game, the IC (who was town) joined bandwagon during RVS so it WOULDN'T be pointless. As you just said, 1 vote doesn't create pressure, so joining a bandwagon makes it better. There's no incentive for mafia to try to get someone lynched during RVS when they know it is RVS unless they're severely mistaken about the length of a normal day phase, imo. (I did try to argue that before so it looked like I was scumhunting, though, as mafia.)

I think your hesitation and brushing off your reads as coincidence is far more likely to be a scumtell, if any has been dropped at all on page 1.

I wrote that before seeing page 2, but there's nothing really to say about what's here. @Lick: Maybe if it continues, but so far, there was only one post and it was, if anything, helping discussion get started earlier.

VOTE: GreenNope[/quote]

Great opening post. Like you for Town because of it. I also was thinking GN was a bit Sus. Not enough for a vote, but do like this analysis.

[LicketyQuickety]

...Wooper (WHO CAN USE ICE PUNCH, WHILE HAVING NO ARMS!)

ice bodyslam

there is seldom more than one vote (but we do have two votes on pkmsilver )

Honestly, I understand why someone would vote for them (RVS), but two is a tad bit suspicious, though it may be a coincidence.

In my first game, the IC (who was town) joined bandwagon during RVS so it WOULDN'T be pointless. As you just said, 1 vote doesn't create pressure, so joining a bandwagon makes it better. There's no incentive for mafia to try to get someone lynched during RVS when they know it is RVS unless they're severely mistaken about the length of a normal day phase, imo. (I did try to argue that before so it looked like I was scumhunting, though, as mafia.)

I think your hesitation and brushing off your reads as coincidence is far more likely to be a scumtell, if any has been dropped at all on page 1.

I wrote that before seeing page 2, but there's nothing really to say about what's here. @Lick: Maybe if it continues, but so far, there was only one post and it was, if anything, helping discussion get started earlier.

VOTE: GreenNope

Great opening post. Like you for Town because of it. I also was thinking GN was a bit Sus. Not enough for a vote, but do like this analysis.

EBWOP.. (fixed)

[LicketyQuickety]

@GreenNope

Okay - how does that make them more likely to vote second?

For instance, what if PKMSilver is scum? That would make it less likely for him to be voted by scum, yet more likely to be voted by town - making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.
Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does) which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.
Also, let's say I am scum, and you are town, if someone agrees with you that I am scum for placing a second vote, and votes me - would that then make me town and them scum, forcing you to move your vote? Or does your tell only apply for the very first second vote of the game?

I don't feel like you're actually thinking this through - am I missing something?

@PkmSilver

Do you have any reads currently?

No Town tell about it.. Scum distance each other early, its a pretty common thing. Also, if you are Scum with PKM then there are no more Scum to even vote for them. And lets not forget that your vote on PKM didn't really add any pressure to them at all, but you decided to go after someone else in stead. Don't know that I like you trying to obviously point out your own Town tells. Don't like that at all. Obviously that doesn't matter too much until we get flips, but still.

[LicketyQuickety]

@LQ @Silver

@LQ @Green @Silver

No RVS?

If I missed your answer, can you quote the post?

Sometimes I do RVS and sometimes I lead off with something different. I lead off with something different this time.

[LicketyQuickety]

Reads in this post.

He can still field the question about the town reads though, that is pretty blatant misrepping/bad reading.

I'm sorry, a misrep? What is this about?

I don't think he has particularly towntold. Also, I still think a new player might not be as quick to deny their own reads as town.

What reads did he deny?

@GreenNope

Okay - how does that make them more likely to vote second?

For instance, what if PKMSilver is scum? That would make it less likely for him to be voted by scum, yet more likely to be voted by town -

making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.

Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does)

which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.

Also, let's say I am scum, and you are town, if someone agrees with you that I am scum for placing a second vote, and votes me - would that then make me town and them scum, forcing you to move your vote? Or does your tell only apply for the very first second vote of the game?

I don't feel like you're actually thinking this through - am I missing something?

@PkmSilver

Do you have any reads currently?

No Town tell about it.. Scum distance each other early, its a pretty common thing. Also, if you are Scum with PKM then there are no more Scum to even vote for them. And lets not forget that your vote on PKM didn't really add any pressure to them at all, but you decided to go after someone else in stead. Don't know that I like you trying to obviously point out your own Town tells. Don't like that at all. Obviously that doesn't matter too much until we get flips, but still.

@LQ - why are you answering a question I asked GreenNope while not actually answering the question I did ask you?
I'll repeat the question to you - Do you have any reads currently?
Please answer both of those.

As to your other thing - there is *nothing* in my post that suggests I'm pointing out my own town tells - where are you getting that conclusion?

I'm not answering a question you asked GreenNope; I am noting an observation I made of your post. There is a difference there.

Oh, you're right, I was presuming a sloppy read of the post thinking I had asked up not down, that makes it even weirder that he hopped in to field it.
He can move to the scum pool with Green, especially if Green flips scum.

This is not a good look for you. You are basically doing the same type of derp that GN was doing - I'm sure you can see now how that doesn't make GN Scum. Let me explain it so it is clear. You are Scum reading GN for the whole voting mishap. That would be fine except you fail to see how when you told GN to vote you and then they did and then GN said they usually don't vote people that early that is was a lack of observation just like you saying you didn't see when I pointed out you were pointing out your own Town tells. I have half a mind that you both could be trying to derp clear yourselves. Obviously GN is not as obvious in that I feel it could be said that GN is being too careless to be Scum while you are outright not observing something you said yourself.

Anyways, Reads:

Town:
Impoetic

Town lean:
GreenNope

Null:
Thor
PKM
Hyped (hasn't posted)
Lis (hasn't posted)

Scum Lean:
Dewy
frog

[LicketyQuickety]

Thor is already taking the lead in this game. I expected this, but didn't expect Thor to be so strong against a single person. Don't know that I like that as it can choke the content people might offer and possibly create a dynamic where no one thinks except Thor and the rest of Town doesn't know what to do so they just follow what seems easy. That said, its still really early in the game.

I think you're overstating the case here. It's Day 1 in a Newbie, so it to be expected that the IC is prominent in some way or other.

What Thor is doing, independent of whether GreenNope is scum, is educating in RVS and when to vote.

For what it's worth, I don't read GreenNope as scum.

@Impoetic: why is hesitation, in this instance, scummy?

didn't like the bold, didn't like that Thor neither confirmed nor denied that statement.

[LicketyQuickety]

Oh, you're right, I was presuming a sloppy read of the post thinking I had asked up not down, that makes it even weirder that he hopped in to field it.
He can move to the scum pool with Green, especially if Green flips scum.

Lol I was actually thinking Lick/Green were probably not partners due to the sincerity of #33 and the “but not enough for a vote” (superfluous specifics that wouldn’t normally read as towny/wouldn't be thought of as towny by scum making the post) but that was a weak/shallow read.

As to "denying reads," that was just my poor way of describing his line about how it "could just be coincidence."

I understand that it could well have to do with newbishness, but I'll leave him in my scumpool for now. I think if he's town-sided that'll become somewhat more evident later.

I disagree with Liquid's two scumleans though. How'd you get those,

@LiquetyQuickety

?

Predit: What about the bold bothers you in Frog?

I guess I'm null on Dewy. Maybe the "I agree" was your scumread, but I don't wanna put words in your mouth and I didn't take that impression immediately.

frog hasn't done anything to hit the mark. It looks more like they are trying to subtly discrediting people's points rather than Scum hunting. Dewy is just going along with what looks like it taking ground and looking busy. It looks like they are both trying to get Townie points by not actually Scum hunting.

What I didn't like about the bold is that I have no idea where frog is getting that that is what Thor is doing. Its hard for Thor to say "No, I'm not doing that" because it makes it makes it appear that Thor is not as reputable as IC. I know Thor a tiny bit by reputation and know that he is perfectly competent in this game (this being a newbie game nonetheless).

@Impoetic, have you played forum mafia elsewhere? I noticed you made a comment about things being expected in a newbie game and was wondering where that was coming from.

[LicketyQuickety]

I played a different, faster-paced version (also text-based) on a website called Epicmafia, and played a couple forum mafia games on the forums of that website before coming here, but a lot of the mentality of the website permeated those games and people were pretty uncooperative -- nothing at all like the community here. This is my second game on this website.

That counts for more that you think. I am aware of EpicMafia, though I have never played there (will sometime though). What I understand it that EM caters more toward gut read type players. Is this accurate or no?

[LicketyQuickety]

@LQ

It looks more like they are trying to subtly discrediting people's points rather than Scum hunting. Dewy is just going along with what looks like it taking ground and looking busy. It looks like they are both trying to get Townie points by not actually Scum hunting.

When I read over the game, I tend to take notes. On GN's post's I made a note, but as I kept reading, you already posted something similar.
I'm scum reading GN because he's to willing to change his beliefs when pressured. I'm not seeing what I'm randomly going along with on that or what points I'm discrediting.

In post 68 you said that GN was to careless to be scum. Can you elaborate on that?

Just because you take notes does not at all mean that you can't be Scum. What if GN is just too new to know any better? The point wasn't that you were providing the same reasons, but that you were jumping on something I don't personally consider to be terribly AI.

Newb Town don't give a flying fuck what they look like - they haven't an inclination that what/how you appear as means anything at all. They are just trying to figure out this bran new game that they prolly don't have much experience playing and I think that is

exactly

what is going on with GN. Newbs are absolutely the easier people to read. I will adamantly disagree with anyone who thinks they are not.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm not at all getting how you can say:

What were you hoping to do?

Several things, really; by challenging the wagon I thought I'd see who was on it by genuine conviction and who was just trying to get towncred by adding pressure to an ostensibly scummy slot without contributing anything of their own. On the off chance that GreenNope becomes today's lynch and flips town, a few alternative points here and there prevents the mafia from furthering the line 'they were too scummy to be scum' on Day 2, which would be counter-productive for our understanding of what had happened.
I also thought that Thor was laying an abnormally large number of traps that came from at best a selective reading of what the person they quote had been saying - examples include #37 with the phrase 'did you really not notice that?', where he appeared to imply that LicketyQuickety had deliberately left his potentially accidental vote in place, and #64, where he attacked LQ for not answering a question he hadn't asked them. By correcting (or defending, if you really want to call it that)

I was hoping to see whether Thor would uphold or retract his statement, and also draw some attention to this. I'm a little suspicious of Thor because I feel like his baiting is unlikely to catch scum, being more likely to confuse the rest of us and distract from genuinely scummy behaviour, but at the same time he has been open.

And also leave out when you say:

didn't like the bold, didn't like that Thor neither confirmed nor denied that statement.

Would you mind explaining this? In particular, do you agree or disagree with the following:

1) Randomly voting someone is common, if not usual and expected, on mafiascum, on the first few pages of Day 1
2) Scumreading someone based entirely on them starting the first wagon is an not a viable way of approaching the game
3) Voting someone when you suspect them to be scum, excepting occasions such as them having claimed or being at L-1, is the best thing to do
4) The inconsistency that GreenNope has displayed has led to them being scumread by a handful of players
5) This is not optimal play for town or scum and is also easily corrected
6) Whether GreenNope is town or scum, they will be unlikely to repeat this behaviour in subsequent games, whether they are town or scum
7) That Thor can be actively scumhunting and educating at the same time, and does not need to respond to a post not addressed to him, as indeed he did not?

To not include that you were putting words in Thors mouth saying he was doing it to "educate" the newbs. I must be missing something because if that is a deliberate act by the IC, then they damn well better say it out loud that they are doing it to educate the newbs cuz newbs is newbs and they sure as hell are not going to catch a detail like that. Some of the really smart ones might catch it, but in all likelihood its going to go straight over a huge percentage of people's heads who are new to the game.

They are just trying to figure out this bran new game that they prolly don't have much experience playing and I think that is

exactly

what is going on with GN. Newbs are absolutely the easier people to read. I will adamantly disagree with anyone who thinks they are not.

We're going to be disagreeing with each other for the rest of this game, I think. I find new players to be the most erratic precisely for the reasons you have given; they are coming with a diversity of levels of knowledge, personalities, and playstyles, some influenced by playing mafia IRL or on other websites, such that any attempt to create a universal scumtell for them is inevitably frustrated.

This is how you get a Town read out of a Newb:

Get them to spill their guts all over the pavement on a hot summer day.. That will tell you

exactly

what alignment they are. If you catch a lie, their tone is bad, they don't say hardly anything and generally don't answer the question to the absolute best of their knowledge, then its a pretty clear indication that they are Scum. OTOH, if they basically tell you their life story and tell it exactly as they see it, without any hindrance of hiding their thought process, then it is very very clearly a Town tell. In short, if they are acting like they have nothing to hide, they are Town. If they are being cryptic and sneaky, they are Scum. It is that easy.

[LicketyQuickety]

Those two parts of my post are responding to two different people over different parts of the game, as is pretty apparent by even a cursory glance of what I wrote. And, yes, I think you are missing something: point 7, perhaps?

Yeah, didn't see point 7. Its why I have a Scummy meta and as such why I play a lot of Newbie games. Do it for the practice. My problem with what you said is that you made a point of saying that Thor was not voting someone who he was pushing specifically for the purpose of educating newbs.. by that logic, everything Thor does or does not do is educating the newbs which would make your comment that Thor was specifically not voting someone he was pushing to teach newbs something, something Thor never actually said he was doing a moot point. Perhaps you don't know how the role of IC works, but as I understand it, when there is a standard theory that the IC is trying to get across to do or not do, the IC will note it as such. That is at least how I would go about being the IC. Aside from that, there is much the IC will not say because they should understand that everyone's playstyle is a little different and part of these newbie games is figuring out what a newbies playstyle is going to be. In short, not everything the IC does is Mafia Law and as such, there is room for personal playstyle where players are just going to play differently. The role of the IC is not to hold everyone's hand through the game and let everyone know everything there is to know about this game in a single game.

A challenge to your assumption has already been brought up by a player you read as town, but it's apparent that you'll stick to your fairly rigid, systematic approach to the game, and I'll leave you to it.

Uhmmm... I don't have to agree with everything a Town read says for them to be a Town read. I don't have to agree with anything they say for me to Town read them in theory. All I have to do is have rational for why that player is Town and I don't even provide that all the time for my Town reads. Scum reads are likewise - I don't have to disagree with everything they say or really anything as long as I have a basis for why that player is Scum. Admittedly, you need more backing for your Scum reads than your Town reads if you actually want to get your Scum reads lynched.

Aside from that, you just did something I specifically mentioned as being a Scum tell ie. being cryptic. IDK what Town read you are talking about or what was said that I disagreed with so you might want to point that out before I throw a serious vote in your direction.

And my system is very very far from rigid. I actually have one of the more flexible approaches to reading people on this forum on average. You are assuming that just because I have Specific Scum and Town tells for newbies means that this translates into how I read everyone and nothing could be further from the truth. This is inductive reasoning you are using when you say that so either you are really confused about how I play, or you are Scum.

[LicketyQuickety]

Oh boy, looks like I am going to have to go hard mode for this game. Will get to your reply in a few Thor.

[LicketyQuickety]

For clarity's sake I am blocking up conversations by using quotes.

I'm sorry, a misrep? What is this about?

It's about the question I asked you about the accusation you made.

Don't know that I like you trying to obviously point out your own Town tells.

Here's your accusation.

And here's my question;

As to your other thing - there is *nothing* in my post that suggests I'm pointing out my own town tells - where are you getting that conclusion?

Can you answer it now? I don't think I can ask it any clearer.

making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.

Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does)

which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.

I highlighted the part where you said you were making Town Tells. I said later that This doesn't mean much until after flips as I stated here:

Obviously that doesn't matter too much until we get flips, but still.

I'm not answering a question you asked GreenNope; I am noting an observation I made of your post. There is a difference there.

Felt more like a question answer to me, sounds like you're trying to split hairs here.

Because I am Trying to split hairs. If you are Scum, I am going to have to think outside the box a bit. That means trying to catch you on something you might not expect. What do you mean by "question answer?" That is confusing a fuck.

Next topic of discussion:

That would be fine except you fail to see how when you told GN to vote you and then they did and then GN said they usually don't vote people that early that is was a lack of observation just like you saying you didn't see when I pointed out you were pointing out your own Town tells.

Okay, and I admitted to lack of observation immediately and I am having to drag an answer out of him about how his logic process works.
I agree.

Who are you addressing here? Who are you talking to? Are you talking to me or are you talking to everyone else and telling them I am Scum? I am not Scum, I am Town.
You did not admit to lack of understanding right away. You said I was missrepping you first thing, then covered it up with acting like you had no idea what I was talking about. Then asked me to explain where I said you said you were pointing out your own Town tells.

SO actually I see those as really different, can you clarify again why they are the same?

You saying GN should vote you because they Scum read you, then you questioning GN when they voted you the next post is the same fucking thing because its confusing as shit to follow only much less confusing that all this shit.

Especially since one was advanced as a scum/town case and the other was a 'oh you answered the wrong question - while being correct about you answering one of the questions, but being wrong about you being asked either of the questions'

You are saying what your engagement with GN about voting you was considered Scum hunting. You are saying that essentially, because GN was unaware of how to conduct their votes which caused you to Scum read them this is different that you not knowing what I meant when I said you were pointing out supposed Town tells by yourself and even after I had pointed them out with highlighted color you still said that you had no idea what I was talking about and then later said you admitted you didn't observe that happening all the while still inquiring about that happenstance. If you were paying attention at all you would be able to immediately identify where I highlighted with color where you pointed out your own supposed Town tells. I do not believe you would have admitted to not observing yourself pointing out your own Town tells while still asking where you did this as Town.

I don't see how that makes them the same things at all.

Then you are playing dumb.

The following is the interaction you are talking about regarding what you said about why am I answering a question you asked GreenNope while not actually answering the question you did ask me:

No Town tell about it.. Scum distance each other early, its a pretty common thing. Also, if you are Scum with PKM then there are no more Scum to even vote for them. And lets not forget that your vote on PKM didn't really add any pressure to them at all, but you decided to go after someone else in stead. Don't know that I like you trying to obviously point out your own Town tells. Don't like that at all. Obviously that doesn't matter too much until we get flips, but still.

@LQ - why are you answering a question I asked GreenNope while not actually answering the question I did ask you?
I'll repeat the question to you - Do you have any reads currently?
Please answer both of those.

As to your other thing - there is *nothing* in my post that suggests I'm pointing out my own town tells - where are you getting that conclusion?

I'm not answering a question you asked GreenNope; I am noting an observation I made of your post. There is a difference there.

The next quote is where I try to explain:

Oh, you're right, I was presuming a sloppy read of the post thinking I had asked up not down, that makes it even weirder that he hopped in to field it.
He can move to the scum pool with Green, especially if Green flips scum.

This is not a good look for you. You are basically doing the same type of derp that GN was doing - I'm sure you can see now how that doesn't make GN Scum. Let me explain it so it is clear. You are Scum reading GN for the whole voting mishap. That would be fine except you fail to see how when you told GN to vote you and then they did and then GN said they usually don't vote people that early that is was a lack of observation just like you saying you didn't see when I pointed out you were pointing out your own Town tells. I have half a mind that you both could be trying to derp clear yourselves. Obviously GN is not as obvious in that I feel it could be said that GN is being too careless to be Scum while you are outright not observing something you said yourself.

So you see, you are simply creating a massive clusterfuck of information when it is completely unnecessary, Thor. You are unnecessarily complicating quote blocks in a way that could potentially confuse the shit out of Town because of the way that I have to answer to get my point across which could very well be a Scum agenda by you. Consider yourself Scum read.

Last engagement I bother to have the time to do at this point in time.

I think you're overstating the case here. It's Day 1 in a Newbie, so it to be expected that the IC is prominent in some way or other.

What Thor is doing, independent of whether GreenNope is scum, is educating in RVS and when to vote.

For what it's worth, I don't read GreenNope as scum.

didn't like the bold, didn't like that Thor neither confirmed nor denied that statement.

I also have not confirmed or denied that my username is Thor.
I don't get the point here - I am asking him to explain the logic of a scumtell and to justify lack of RVS vote or presence of it. By definition that can be taken as education as I'm asking him to think about the process.
By definition it is also scumhunting, as I'm asking in order to understand what he's thinking.
Neither of these blatant realities should need to be noted.

Did you really not see either of them?

That is entirely missing the point. You threw accusations in GN face and then voted them. So you were Scum hunting them and Scum reading them at the same time. We call that tunneling where I come from. Why is GN Scum? What reactions did they give you that tell you that? You said you were looking for them to share their thought process.. What info did you gather from them sharing their thought process?

@Thor

Oh, you're right, I was presuming a sloppy read of the post thinking I had asked up not down, that makes it even weirder that he hopped in to field it.
He can move to the scum pool with Green, especially if Green flips scum.

Why is that?

The logic being he is seeing someone left swinging in the wind, worried that he is looking scummy, and so leaps in to field the questions on the presumption it will prevent his scumbuddy from looking worse.

There is theoretically no town motivation to cut off scumhunting - so unless LQ wants to make the case that what I was doing was not scumhunting, there is no actual justification for his actions.

He has now listed GN as a strong town read, and has claimed he was generically addressing a thought not answering a question, so he is either town who doesn't understand how he's gakking up scumhunting, or scum who is painfully aware of how accurate my raised issue is. Your value call after that. I'm voting GN.

If i was worried about what I looked like I would definitely not be engaging this far down the rabbit hole of clusterfuck logic.

[LicketyQuickety]

@LicketyQuickety: I would like an answer to the following:

Why don't you know what townread I am talking about?

You are talking about Impoetic.. failed to realize that at first.

Just getting to this now.. Will get to the other stuff soonish.

[LicketyQuickety]

Seriously, this is becoming an argument between Dewy, Lickety and Thor, rather than Thor and I.

What about frog?

[LicketyQuickety]

I haven't played in this competent of a newbie game in a while. Getting to frog and Thor's posts now will do frogs than the other. (every once in a while I get a newbie game like this that doesn't feel like a newbie game at all.)

[LicketyQuickety]

didn't like the bold, didn't like that Thor neither confirmed nor denied that statement.

Would you mind explaining this? In particular, do you agree or disagree with the following:

1) Randomly voting someone is common, if not usual and expected, on mafiascum, on the first few pages of Day 1.

agree.

2) Scumreading someone based entirely on them starting the first wagon is an not a viable way of approaching the game

somewhat agree.

3) Voting someone when you suspect them to be scum, excepting occasions such as them having claimed or being at L-1, is the best thing to do

Agree, but it depends on wagons. If you have a Scum read with 2 votes and a Null read with 6 votes and its near EOD, it can make things more difficult.

4) The inconsistency that GreenNope has displayed has led to them being scumread by a handful of players

agree.

[quote5) This is not optimal play for town or scum and is also easily corrected[/quote]

Don't know what this refers to. if it refers to #4 then I neither agree nor disagree. Some players you can be sure to Scum read them based on a single inconsistency.. others you have to look at other things.

6) Whether GreenNope is town or scum, they will be unlikely to repeat this behaviour in subsequent games, whether they are town or scum

I have no idea. I'm not a mind reader.

7) That Thor can be actively scumhunting and educating at the same time, and does not need to respond to a post not addressed to him, as indeed he did not?

Don't know. He doesn't HAVE to, but I'm not convinced it would be a bad idea for him to do so.

We're going to be disagreeing with each other for the rest of this game, I think. I find new players to be the most erratic precisely for the reasons you have given; they are coming with a diversity of levels of knowledge, personalities, and playstyles, some influenced by playing mafia IRL or on other websites, such that any attempt to create a universal scumtell for them is inevitably frustrated.

I believe I stated that I was talking about people who were completely new to the game. IDK maybe I read newbs differently than you, but for me, as long as they are providing actual content to the game, I think they are easier to read.

[LicketyQuickety]

Nowhere in the comment you're referring to is a vote mentioned, neither did I say that he was

specifically

educating new players, because doing that and exerting pressure are not exclusive. The context for the post was you being worried about Thor carrying the game and stifling content. Have you forgotten what you were talking about?

VCA is not my thing. I see you are correct that you didn't say it way specifically for new players. Thought it was implied because this is a newbie game. I understand they are not exclusive, but, to me, you completely gave the impression fmpov that, this being a newbie game, Thor would be catering to Newbies. Regardless, I think there is a way to do it to give correct Mafia theory without being so subtle about it. Perhaps that is just my ignorance talking IDK.

I disagree that being cryptic is necessarily a scumtell, but, regardless, you shouldn't be having any problem with my remark; don't you know who your townreads are? Why don't you know what townread I am talking about?
If you have anything you can call a 'system' it is already, in my opinion, too rigid. I wouldn't push the 'inductive reasoning' stuff too far, by the way, because, to quote you, 'this is not a good look for you.'

I don't think being cryptic HAS to be a Scum tell always and forever. I don't know anything about how you play, I have never played with you before.

Why do I have to know what Town read you are talking about in order for that to mean anything to me? Honestly, I don't really mind what my Town reads say as long as they are pushing Scum and remaining a Town read to me.

My reads are like a fighter pilot trying to lock onto the enemy.. There is a lot of things moving around that makes having a clear cut, steadily getting closer to accurate reads problematic for me. Its just not how I do it. I can be wrong as much as I'm right sometimes.

Everyone has a system for reading people if they have developed their playstyle at all.. we will disagree with this apparently.

[LicketyQuickety]

making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.

Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does)

which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.

I highlighted the part where you said you were making Town Tells. I said later that This doesn't mean much until after flips as I stated here:

And the fact that I was discussing the theoretical concept of it being a scumtell to vote second, and suggesting that it wasn't because it could equally be argued as a town tell (thus making my point that it wasn't alignment indicative either way) didn't come through?
Like you thought I was legit raising points for me being town that included "evidence" of PkmSilver being scum, and also me being scum?
Like, I feel like there's a specific reason you had to trim down my quote there to make it look like you're talking sense.

Didn't come across like you were saying there was an equal chance of being either Town or Scum, no.
Nope, didn't see you provide any evidence for why PKM was Scum. I threw out a possibility. You think that's Scummy? You're wrong, but OK.

I'm not answering a question you asked GreenNope; I am noting an observation I made of your post. There is a difference there.

Felt more like a question answer to me, sounds like you're trying to split hairs here.

Because I am Trying to split hairs. If you are Scum, I am going to have to think outside the box a bit. That means trying to catch you on something you might not expect. What do you mean by "question answer?" That is confusing a Smurf.

To answer the second part first - when I am asking you about answering a question, and you say you're not answering a question, and I say it sounds like a question answer - I think "question answer" translates clearly as...it feels like you were answering a question, specifically the one we were talking about. Sorry if that confused you.

First part - so you're splitting hairs to defend yourself in order to catch me being scum?

Unvote: GreenNope
Vote: LicketyQuickety

I don't buy that, not at all.

"question answer" was confusing because I am not use to that phase. There was no conjuction or anything like that in between. Made it difficult to understand what you were saying.
Go back and look at how you attacking me started.. might shed some light on the subject. In other words, I don't feel like I have been defending myself at all.

Why not? Why don't you buy it? I can tell you right now, you are making the same mistake all super experienced players make when they are not reading me correctly (given you are Town): you are assuming you know the way I play and what I would do as Scum and think I am doing what you expect me to do as Scum. Go 'head, read through a couple of my games. Pretty sure you should be able to figure out you have me wrong.

Who are you addressing here? Who are you talking to? Are you talking to me or are you talking to everyone else and telling them I am Scum? I am not Scum, I am Town.

I was talking to you and to everyone - you in specific because I was responding to you, and everyone because everyone reads everything we type. It's a public forum game.

Yeah, only problem with that is that it is correct play theory wise is to talk more to the people who you are trying to convince the person you should be talking to is Scum and I believe you were doing this. I also think you hadn't up until that point indicated that you thought I was a Scum read previously to that.

You did not admit to lack of understanding right away. You said I was missrepping you first thing, then covered it up with acting like you had no idea what I was talking about. Then asked me to explain where I said you said you were pointing out your own Town tells.

Okay, you are shifting around a lot here.
My understanding is you cited me for misunderstanding that you didn't answer a question I hadn't asked you - which Frogger pointed out and I admitted to right away.
I will agree that I didn't admit to being wrong about the misrep right away, because I didn't understand how you got there, and now that you have just provided an answer I find it a slightly scummy one.

Why is it Scummy? Better yet, why is it Scummy for ME to do that?

You saying GN should vote you because they Scum read you, then you questioning GN when they voted you the next post is the same Smurfing thing because its confusing as Smurf to follow only much less confusing that all this Smurf.

You are answering a valid question with rage.
If you are honestly this peeved off - why? I'm actively *trying* to be clear to you in everything I say and do. I think all the misunderstandings are stemming from you and your responses, and think

I am actively trying to avoid you being able to call anything confusing.

I was frustrated because I didn't want to have to deal with a Quote mess for the next 5 pages, dredging through that slosh.
More or less, yes. Didn't want to do it the hard way with little gain.

If this is fake rage, I don't accept it as showing any logic from you,

and am interpreting it as trying to cover up awareness of your logic being shaky.

I currently favor the second option, because I don't think I'm being confusing. But if something is confusing - maybe ask to clear it up?

I wouldn't call it rage, far from it actually. Frustration hence the colorful language, yes. Rage? No.

My logic is shaky, my reasoning skills are not. Though I am not always looking at the right things, when I am looking at the right things I am not too bad actually.

I'll ask something at the end of this post to see if that clears anything up on my end.

I'm not answering a question you asked GreenNope; I am noting an observation I made of your post. There is a difference there.

I strongly disagree.
There was a question.
You addressed it to deflect/weaken it - in effect, precluding GN's need to answer it.

You strongly disagree doesn't sound like black and white logic to me.. It sounds more like a strong opinion.
What I said, I don't know how you are inferring how it is not possible for me to completely disregard the question completely. I didn't even know my "answer" (who am I kidding, not going to kid myself, for get that noise) my observation had anything to do with the question you asked GN.
No, I wasn't even addressing it actually. I can go back and look at the quote and then my answer and give you my interpretation of things since you're not doing a great job of interpreting and questioning my posts so far. Want me to do that?
No, how does me commenting on something prevent GN from answering a question that in all likelihood hadn't been intruded in the first place?

That is entirely missing the point. You threw accusations in GN face and then voted them. So you were Scum hunting them and Scum reading them at the same time. We call that tunneling where I come from. Why is GN Scum? What reactions did they give you that tell you that? You said you were looking for them to share their thought process.. What info did you gather from them sharing their thought process?

So your presumption is that when I placed the second vote on them I was already scum reading them when their entire iso was saying "hey everyone!"
I don't think that's true, and it's assuredly not a tunnel.
I am not sure as to my full response to their thought process because I'm still asking them questions about it and haven't seen them answer yet - so it's an ongoing process. If I had to guess at their alignment I would tend to bounce it to the scum side,

because I vaguely dislike non-logical conclusions. But that's including a presumption on my part that they won't have a valid answer.

I haven't said hardly a word on your vote on PKM in any kind of sound way. I don't have a stance on that. I threw out a possibility to see if things could get moving. I'd rather try to get answers out of the IC sooner rather than later. I'm not as concerned about your vote on PKM as much as I am on GN. I think the vote on GN is going to be most telling when GN or yourself flips. In a way I can't blame you for voting me since I know my meta, but I assure you I am not doing anything I wouldn't normally do as Town. I am prepared to link games if need be, but tbh I think you would prolly want to flip me anyways day one since you prolly would rather MY meta not be in the game all game long.

In bold: cute.

If i was worried about what I looked like I would definitely not be engaging this far down the rabbit hole of clusterSmurf logic.

Well, you actually are actively complaining that I'm forcing you to go down the hole - so, clearly you *don't* wish to be here.
Also, your only other option, as scum, would be to act like I'm not here, which I assure you would end up making you look worse.
Finally, going hard emotion response in your reply tends to cloud up your answers and feels defensive to me.

GTFO of here with that. I'm not stupid and I can see a blatant logical fallacy when I see one. No, not going to entertain you with this one - don't even ask.

[LicketyQuickety]

What should have been at the end of that post: What's the benefit of voting me as your scum read over your other Scum read? You wont get much from pressure on me, either you lynch me or you don't, I don't cave, even as Scum.

[LicketyQuickety]

Why do I have to know what Town read you are talking about in order for that to mean anything to me? Honestly, I don't really mind what my Town reads say as long as they are pushing Scum and remaining a Town read to me.

You don't. I was merely stating that another player (Impoetic, as you have lately noted) disagreed with your way of assessing how Newbies might play, how best to read them, and the like (see post #72 in particular). There was no reason to carry the discussion further; I said we'd disagree but was happy to not discuss it any more and leave you to your way of playing.

Here's why it is significant:

Anyways, Reads:

Town:
Impoetic

Town lean:
GreenNope

Null:
Thor
PKM
Hyped (hasn't posted)
Lis (hasn't posted)

Scum Lean:
Dewy
frog

You 'don't know what Town read

talking about', yet you have precisely one town read. I find it hard to believe that you would forget your only townread if your reads were genuine. Between that and your most recent post...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: LicketyQuickety

I will get to the rest of what has been posted tomorrow, as it is getting late over here.

Errr... I could Two Town reads there. This is prolly not how anyone else sees it, but I read this as you Scum reading me because we have a difference of opinion.

[LicketyQuickety]

Didn't come across like you were saying there was an equal chance of being either Town or Scum, no.

That's not what I said.

Actually, that is exactly what you were implying.

Nope, didn't see you provide any evidence for why PKM was Scum. I threw out a possibility. You think that's Scummy? You're wrong, but OK.

I will agree that I provided just as much evidence for Pkm to be scum in that quote as I did for me to be town.
Doesn't change that you are straw grasping to present that as Thor presenting a town case on himself for you to call questionable.

Ooohhhh.... You're actually pushing my lynch now. Heh. I don't know if I can dig my way out of this one.

Lets get this shit straight. That whole thing about you pointing out your own town tells would be a blip if you weren't so slow in catching what I was saying the first 5 times.

Go back and look at how you attacking me started.. might shed some light on the subject. In other words, I don't feel like I have been defending myself at all.

You have been defending yourself because I've been attacking you.
I'm not calling that scummy.
I *am* calling the concept that you're scumhunting me by defending yourself via hair split arguments to be scummy, however.

And why are you attacking me? Could it be because of a whole misunderstanding about what I said about you pointing out your town tells?

IDK, but that's what its looking like to me.

Why not? Why don't you buy it? I can tell you right now, you are making the same mistake all super experienced players make when they are not reading me correctly (given you are Town): you are assuming you know the way I play and what I would do as Scum and think I am doing what you expect me to do as Scum. Go 'head, read through a couple of my games. Pretty sure you should be able to figure out you have me wrong.

I know that what you are presenting makes no sense, and I am presuming that you, as town, make some sense.
If you play this way as town, then, worst case, I'm trying to lynch a player who doesn't use any logic in their reads.
But I think that's less likely than you being flailscum.

Do you have any games showing you doing this, or something like it, as town?
I'd be happy to look at them.
If your answer is "all of them" then I refer you to my concept above.

I am making sense, you just refuse to see it.
Oh, I wouldn't say any player alive doesn't use any logic, its just a matter of what are people looking at and how well can they articulate themselves and how much about the game do they know.
LOL. So now you

say

you think I am flailing. How? Is this really what flailing looks like? Naw, you're making smurf up.

Shit. I'll do an old one that you played in, one that I played before my hiatus and a recent game. Is three games enough or do you want t few more?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=61893

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=63704

http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthrea ... ia-Wars-II Rurouni Kenshin, sorry this one is a hydra and an off site game but over 90% of the posts are by me.

Yeah, only problem with that is that it is correct play theory wise is to talk more to the people who you are trying to convince the person you should be talking to is Scum and I believe you were doing this. I also think you hadn't up until that point indicated that you thought I was a Scum read previously to that.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here - but I will agree with you that I was presenting issues I had with your slot/suspicions of you being scum to everyone else in the expectation/hope they would agree with me or explain your actions as town.
I will agree that I'm trying to get you lynched.
I will agree that up until I voted you I did not explicitly say you were a scum read.

post 83 is where you were preaching that I was Scum, and by your own account this was before you were Scum reading me as you said you weren't Scum reading me until the post that you voted me.

Why is it Scummy? Better yet, why is it Scummy for ME to do that?

For the reasons I stated - I believed you were misrepresenting my position in order to attack me, when it seems quite obvious that I was not doing what you were saying I was doing.
I think that is scummy for anyone to do - if it is your town meta, then you should stop doing it immediately.
I note that you aren't arguing that you didn't do it at this point, you're arguing that you do it as town.
Please never do that.

Let me tell you how I see it. I see a very competent IC saying that they are doing Town tells within the first very few pages. In what world does an IC who has been playing this game for at least 7 years needs to make an argument that they are Town telling to someone who has prolly played <5 games total? THAT is what I am looking at. Like why would a player who is as experienced as yourself need to every mention that they are doing Town tells by page 3? Maybe I have unrealistic expectations, but I know I myself actually make an effort to try not to have to mention that I have a Scummy meta so soon. I don't like having to say I have a Scummy meta every fucking game. I don't want to have to rely on me talking about my meta every game... in fact I actually talk about my Scummy meta more as Town than I do as Scum.

Let me make this clear: I am simply a player who 90-99% of players don't understand at all. Granted, there are always a few people wherever I go who do actually understand me, but they are few and far in between. I cannot help this, I am just wired differently than other people.

I wouldn't call it rage, far from it actually. Frustration hence the colorful language, yes. Rage? No.

Then my scum read holds, please refrain from cursing at me if you're not angry at me, thanks!

First off, I haven't once referred to you as a cuss word. Secondly, You try being lynchbait and getting lynched before day 3 in 80% of the games you play and see how you handle is when yet another Super star Mafia player thinks its better that your dead even if you are Town. Yeah, I have every reason to be upset actually.

You strongly disagree doesn't sound like black and white logic to me.. It sounds more like a strong opinion.

You are presenting an opinion that noting an observation is not an answer.
I am noting disagreement and providing reasoning to support my opinion and why I find your answer deflective, and not one I buy.
Since we are each offering opinions, I will agree that it is not a black/white value call - I never said it was.
I did say I had made a value call, and what it was.

Whatever.

I can go back and look at the quote and then my answer and give you my interpretation of things since you're not doing a great job of interpreting and questioning my posts so far. Want me to do that?

Sure.

yeah, I don't see anything in what I said that would interfere from GN answering what you were asking her. Sorry to break this to you, but just because you ask someone a question doesn't at all mean that that quote is off limits from other people commenting on it.

No, how does me commenting on something prevent GN from answering a question that in all likelihood hadn't been intruded in the first place?

Well...so far he hasn't answered it, though I will agree that speaks more on him than you.
I will agree it doesn't bar him from answering it for all time.
That said - I think it's pretty clear that it is deflective and defensive for him to have someone else field the question.

Let me let you in on a secret: when I play as Town, I am completely unhindered to explore whatever I feel I think I can get something on. As Scum, I don't think I contradict myself as much because I have an agenda to work and don't need to actually Scum hunt, I just have to make it look like I am Scum hunting.

Here is a recent completed game where I was Scum. IDK if you will be able to see a difference or not, but I'm linking it anyways.

I haven't said hardly a word on your vote on PKM in any kind of sound way. I don't have a stance on that. I threw out a possibility to see if things could get moving. I'd rather try to get answers out of the IC sooner rather than later. I'm not as concerned about your vote on PKM as much as I am on GN. I think the vote on GN is going to be most telling when GN or yourself flips. In a way I can't blame you for voting me since I know my meta, but I assure you I am not doing anything I wouldn't normally do as Town. I am prepared to link games if need be, but tbh I think you would prolly want to flip me anyways day one since you prolly would rather MY meta not be in the game all game long.

So...basically you agree with me that it is beneficial for town to lynch you today?
Because that's what I'm getting here.

I have no idea where you are getting that from. I said I understand why you are voting me.. that does not mean I want to be lynched. I don't want to be lynched, but honestly, I've been in this situation so many times it doesn't even phase me anymore.

Sorry this took so long to respond to, I haven't slept in over 27 hours.

[LicketyQuickety]

@LQ - as I'm looking over your meta I note that you have a number of recently completed games, why did you only link me stuff from back in the day?

This: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... =66845this is my most recent completed game on this site and it is a Scum game. I am in 2 other games on this site but both are ongoing.

In case that is enough:

http://personalitycafe.com/mafia/870714 ... n-win.html is my most recent completed game

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/5 ... QuickTwist my ISO of my second most recent completed game

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/5 ... QuickTwist my ISO of my third most recent completed game

[LicketyQuickety]

Link it or it didn't happen, Thor.

[LicketyQuickety]

There is another game I played briefly off site, but i subbed out, so I am not counting that.

[LicketyQuickety]

Just because you take notes does not at all mean that you can't be Scum. What if GN is just too new to know any better? The point wasn't that you were providing the same reasons, but that you were jumping on something I don't personally consider to be terribly AI.

I was scum reading the person who was the most scummy.

Newb Town don't give a flying fuck what they look like - they haven't an inclination that what/how you appear as means anything at all. They are just trying to figure out this bran new game that they prolly don't have much experience playing and I think that is

exactly

what is going on with GN. Newbs are absolutely the easier people to read. I will adamantly disagree with anyone who thinks they are not.

I agree with you on the fact that newbs are the easiest players to read because I have a harder time reading more experienced players.
On the point where you said that newbs don't really care about what they look like, it's not just newbtown that shouldn't care much about their image. Town's job is to scumhunt, not to care about their image. The only people worried about their image is scum.

I'm pretty sure I covered the fact that Newb Town have no idea what they should even be looking to accomplish with their image.

Besides that, what did you want me to respond to here?

@LQ

You seem to have meta in your responses to Thor to get him to realize that you are town. However, I don't think meta should be the only way to read someone, but because people can change their meta.

Meta is almost never a good idea to use as a defence unless you are backed into a corner and have nowhere else left to go, which happens to me quite often actually.

[LicketyQuickety]

We have surprisingly little info to work with at this stage of the game. We should have twice this amount of posts.

Reads:

Town
Impoetic
GreenNope
Town lean
Dewy
Null
Lis
Hyped
Null/Scum
PKM
Scum lean
frog/Thor

Scum

[LicketyQuickety]

Thor is already taking the lead in this game. I expected this, but didn't expect Thor to be so strong against a single person. Don't know that I like that as it can choke the content people might offer and possibly create a dynamic where no one thinks except Thor and the rest of Town doesn't know what to do so they just follow what seems easy. That said, its still really early in the game.

I think you're overstating the case here. It's Day 1 in a Newbie, so it to be expected that the IC is prominent in some way or other. What Thor is doing, independent of whether GreenNope is scum, is educating in RVS and when to vote. For what it's worth, I don't read GreenNope as scum.

@Impoetic: why is hesitation, in this instance, scummy?

That might not be the case - the vote in LicketyQuickety's post is within a failed quotation. It might count, but it isn't deliberate.

I think this is a really townie line, agreed or disagree I am starting to townread Froggie.

I think the random votes was only for testing but not really scum, at the best of the case two of the mafia is voting at the moment.

OK, so time to put my nuts on the table.

VOTE: PkmSilver

[LicketyQuickety]

@LQ

We have surprisingly little info to work with at this stage of the game. We should have twice this amount of posts.

Reads:

Town
Impoetic
GreenNope
Town lean
Dewy
Null
Lis
Hyped
Null/Scum
PKM
Scum lean
frog/Thor

Scum

In 68, you read me as scum-lean. How did that change to town-lean?

cuz you didn't stop making posts like this one. I have an idea of where you are at now.

[LicketyQuickety]

OK, so time to put my nuts on the table.

VOTE: PkmSilver

?

I'm guessing pkm and one of Thor or frog is Scum. Its that simple.

[LicketyQuickety]

We have surprisingly little info to work with at this stage of the game. We should have twice this amount of posts.

Reads:

Town
Impoetic
GreenNope
Town lean
Dewy
Null
Lis
Hyped
Null/Scum
PKM
Scum lean
frog/Thor

Scum

Town lean
Thor/Frog
Null/Town
pkm
Null
Hyped
Lis
Scum lean
Dewy
Scum
GreenNope
LQ



In short: my reads list is the literal antithesis of yours.

ftfy

[LicketyQuickety]

Didn't come across like you were saying there was an equal chance of being either Town or Scum, no.

That's not what I said.

Actually, that is exactly what you were implying.

Nope, didn't see you provide any evidence for why PKM was Scum. I threw out a possibility. You think that's Scummy? You're wrong, but OK.

I will agree that I provided just as much evidence for Pkm to be scum in that quote as I did for me to be town.
Doesn't change that you are straw grasping to present that as Thor presenting a town case on himself for you to call questionable.

That quote appears to support my stance that I was not saying there was an equal chance of being town or scum.
It does appear to suggest that I wasn't using it as an alignment tell because I don't think it was an alignment tell.

That whole thing about you pointing out your own town tells would be a blip if you weren't so slow in catching what I was saying the first 5 times.

I caught what you were saying the first time.
WHat I pointed out was there was no evidence to support your stance.
You continue to not provide any.
I mean, yeah, you're showing me saying the words "town" and "scum" and in there, amongst other names, I also mention my own.
But that's kind of like saying that if I said "wood and wind instruments fire me up" is the same as me describing ingredients to make a campfire.
Yeah, words were used...but...

And why are you attacking me? Could it be because of a whole misunderstanding about what I said about you pointing out your town tells?

Amongst other things, but I will agree that was the initial point I attacked over - I characterized it as a misrep and have asked you to show me where I'm wrong while I advanced my theory that it was an intentional misrep after seeing your inability to do so.

So now you

say

you think I am flailing. How? Is this really what flailing looks like? Naw, you're making smurf up.

I think flailing looks like someone trying to discuss anything except the points they're being called scummy over. They do this with a number of tools including AtE, deflection, and intentional misunderstanding.
I think you fit the bill quite nicely.
If you prefer we can call it aardvarkingscum - but that is what I mean by flailscum.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=61893

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=63704

http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthrea ... ia-Wars-II Rurouni Kenshin, sorry this one is a hydra and an off site game but over 90% of the posts are by me.

So in those I am going to find misreps as town - or something else?

post 83 is where you were preaching that I was Scum, and by your own account this was before you were Scum reading me as you said you weren't Scum reading me until the post that you voted me.

Yes. And?

Let me tell you how I see it. I see a very competent IC saying that they are doing Town tells within the first very few pages. In what world does an IC who has been playing this game for at least 7 years needs to make an argument that they are Town telling to someone who has prolly played <5 games total? THAT is what I am looking at.

And yet you still are unable to note that what I was actually discussing was how the presented case made no sense as far as I could see, and explicitly asking them to explain their case.

Like why would a player who is as experienced as yourself need to every mention that they are doing Town tells by page 3?

I don't think I would. Well...I suppose someone could be crazy dense and call a Mod posted IC note a scumtell or something, but beyond that, no.

Let me make this clear: I am simply a player who 90-99% of players don't understand at all. Granted, there are always a few people wherever I go who do actually understand me, but they are few and far in between. I cannot help this, I am just wired differently than other people.

Weren't you accusing me of intentionally misunderstanding you?
These two things do not appear to line up.
Clarify?

First off, I haven't once referred to you as a cuss word.

I know - that's why I said 'cursing at me' as opposed to 'don't call me a Smurf-face'.

Secondly, You try being lynchbait and getting lynched before day 3 in 80% of the games you play and see how you handle is when yet another Super star Mafia player thinks its better that your dead even if you are Town. Yeah, I have every reason to be upset actually.

I never called myself a Super Star - so I feel like you are either faking this, or are getting mad at me for reasons that are more internal.
If you don't like being lynchbait - I would advise that you change your playstyle rather then repeatedly assure me it's good, and that I'm intentionally misunderstanding you on one hand, while also admitting you are massively scumread and constantly misunderstood on the other.

yeah, I don't see anything in what I said that would interfere from GN answering what you were asking her. Sorry to break this to you, but just because you ask someone a question doesn't at all mean that that quote is off limits from other people commenting on it.

Other than it being bad town play, good scum play, and hurting scumhunting, I agree.

Let me let you in on a secret: when I play as Town, I am completely unhindered to explore whatever I feel I think I can get something on. As Scum, I don't think I contradict myself as much because I have an agenda to work and don't need to actually Scum hunt, I just have to make it look like I am Scum hunting.

Okay.
I didn't call you scummy for contradicting yourself.
I called you scummy for claiming a scumhunting plan that makes no sense.

Sorry this took so long to respond to, I haven't slept in over 27 hours.

Dear gawd - go to bed, that is unhealthy!

Will get to this later.

[LicketyQuickety]

Link it or it didn't happen, Thor.

...link what, the micro games?
Okay here is one;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=64506

This is weird.
You are being weird - and now I really want an answer.

That game happened in December.. thought you wanted more recent games then that. If you want to go back that far, well then here are some more:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=64027

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=64547

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=63814

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=63765

[LicketyQuickety]

Didn't come across like you were saying there was an equal chance of being either Town or Scum, no.

That's not what I said.

Actually, that is exactly what you were implying.

Nope, didn't see you provide any evidence for why PKM was Scum. I threw out a possibility. You think that's Scummy? You're wrong, but OK.

I will agree that I provided just as much evidence for Pkm to be scum in that quote as I did for me to be town.
Doesn't change that you are straw grasping to present that as Thor presenting a town case on himself for you to call questionable.

That quote appears to support my stance that I was not saying there was an equal chance of being town or scum.
It does appear to suggest that I wasn't using it as an alignment tell because I don't think it was an alignment tell.

I don't even want to talk about the Town tell thing anymore, but I'll just say its been way too confusing for me to get an actual answer out of you on it.

That whole thing about you pointing out your own town tells would be a blip if you weren't so slow in catching what I was saying the first 5 times.

I caught what you were saying the first time.
WHat I pointed out was there was no evidence to support your stance.
You continue to not provide any.
I mean, yeah, you're showing me saying the words "town" and "scum" and in there, amongst other names, I also mention my own.
But that's kind of like saying that if I said "wood and wind instruments fire me up" is the same as me describing ingredients to make a campfire.
Yeah, words were used...but...

The key words someone uses can very well be a give away for what alignment someone is.

And why are you attacking me? Could it be because of a whole misunderstanding about what I said about you pointing out your town tells?

Amongst other things, but I will agree that was the initial point I attacked over - I characterized it as a misrep and have asked you to show me where I'm wrong while I advanced my theory that it was an intentional misrep after seeing your inability to do so.

Yeah, and its not a misrep. IDK about you but I sure as hell am not as quick to say someone is misrepping me.

So now you

say

you think I am flailing. How? Is this really what flailing looks like? Naw, you're making smurf up.

I think flailing looks like someone trying to discuss anything except the points they're being called scummy over. They do this with a number of tools including AtE, deflection, and intentional misunderstanding.
I think you fit the bill quite nicely.
If you prefer we can call it aardvarkingscum - but that is what I mean by flailscum.

IDK what you are talking about.. I've addressed everything you have thrown at me. I think YOU are the one intentionally misunderstanding, honestly.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=61893

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=63704

http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthrea ... ia-Wars-II Rurouni Kenshin, sorry this one is a hydra and an off site game but over 90% of the posts are by me.

So in those I am going to find misreps as town - or something else?

I didn't fucking misrep you, my god. I had a perspective on something that you failed to recognise at first and are still trying to say you noticed it right off the bat. If you did notice it right away and you are town we would not be having this conversation. But to answer your question, yes, other people have thought I was misrepping them when I wasn't. and since when was your main point that I was misrepping you?

post 83 is where you were preaching that I was Scum, and by your own account this was before you were Scum reading me as you said you weren't Scum reading me until the post that you voted me.

Yes. And?

It means you were trying to get people to think I was Scum before you were Scum reading me. Do you have rocks in your head or something? Its like you don't understand anything I say.

Let me tell you how I see it. I see a very competent IC saying that they are doing Town tells within the first very few pages. In what world does an IC who has been playing this game for at least 7 years needs to make an argument that they are Town telling to someone who has prolly played <5 games total? THAT is what I am looking at.

And yet you still are unable to note that what I was actually discussing was how the presented case made no sense as far as I could see, and explicitly asking them to explain their case.

Because I think that is besides the point.

Like why would a player who is as experienced as yourself need to every mention that they are doing Town tells by page 3?

I don't think I would. Well...I suppose someone could be crazy dense and call a Mod posted IC note a scumtell or something, but beyond that, no.

But that is exactly what you were doing though.

Let me make this clear: I am simply a player who 90-99% of players don't understand at all. Granted, there are always a few people wherever I go who do actually understand me, but they are few and far in between. I cannot help this, I am just wired differently than other people.

Weren't you accusing me of intentionally misunderstanding you?
These two things do not appear to line up.
Clarify?

It stems from me having no idea why I am so misunderstood as a player. Like I am in disbelief that someone could be so bad at understanding me. Naturally I think some people are faking it. But then another side of me thinks that it is prolly just me.

First off, I haven't once referred to you as a cuss word.

I know - that's why I said 'cursing at me' as opposed to 'don't call me a Smurf-face'.

I'm not swearing at anyone. I am using cuss words, big deal.

Secondly, You try being lynchbait and getting lynched before day 3 in 80% of the games you play and see how you handle is when yet another Super star Mafia player thinks its better that your dead even if you are Town. Yeah, I have every reason to be upset actually.

I never called myself a Super Star - so I feel like you are either faking this, or are getting mad at me for reasons that are more internal.
If you don't like being lynchbait - I would advise that you change your playstyle rather then repeatedly assure me it's good, and that I'm intentionally misunderstanding you on one hand, while also admitting you are massively scumread and constantly misunderstood on the other.

Here's how I see it. Some people are simply going to misunderstand me and possibly think I am Scum for it. Other people are going to understand what I am saying, but still understand how others might misunderstand me as a reason to Scum read me. Other people are just going to understand me and not make a thing about it at all. I can't help that I am misunderstood by so many people, its just the way I am. What I can do is try and determine if they are doing it on purpose or not. I am undecided on if you are doing it on purpose or not currently.

yeah, I don't see anything in what I said that would interfere from GN answering what you were asking her. Sorry to break this to you, but just because you ask someone a question doesn't at all mean that that quote is off limits from other people commenting on it.

Other than it being bad town play, good scum play, and hurting scumhunting, I agree.

You are basically saying that if you ask someone a question, that anyone commenting on what you said before that person answers is off limits, and I greatly disagree with that.

Let me let you in on a secret: when I play as Town, I am completely unhindered to explore whatever I feel I think I can get something on. As Scum, I don't think I contradict myself as much because I have an agenda to work and don't need to actually Scum hunt, I just have to make it look like I am Scum hunting.

Okay.
I didn't call you scummy for contradicting yourself.
I called you scummy for claiming a scumhunting plan that makes no sense.

Its the only way I know how to Scum hunt when I can barely respond to everything you throw at me. and that is not your actual reason iirc. Its either this or because you think I am misrepping you. So which is it?
Dear gawd - go to bed, that is unhealthy!

[LicketyQuickety]

Yeah, and its not a misrep. IDK about you but I sure as hell am not as quick to say someone is misrepping me.

Yes it was and is a misrep, and I don't see what your chosen timeline to note them has to do with anything.

So you think its a misrep when I say you are pointing out that you are Town telling... when you are in fact doing that? The fact that that was not your point does not hold any bearing whether you were doing it or not.
How about this: why is it a misrep? I'm not sure I understand that. Feel free to be as detailed with this as possible.

IDK what you are talking about.. I've addressed everything you have thrown at me. I think YOU are the one intentionally misunderstanding, honestly.

Addressing is not the same as answering.
The misunderstanding call on me is an empty and unsupported one.

Oh prince, oh prince, it what way is the perfect way to answer?

Its not a misrep. These are the facts:

You stated what you were doing is a town tell
I said you are pointing out your town tells

How the hell is that a misrep?

I didn't Smurfing misrep you, my god. I had a perspective on something that you failed to recognise at first and are still trying to say you noticed it right off the bat. If you did notice it right away and you are town we would not be having this conversation. But to answer your question, yes, other people have thought I was misrepping them when I wasn't. and since when was your main point that I was misrepping you?

Since when has the misrep not been a point? I will agree my main point is the 'scumhunt via defense' point, but I've always had the misrep as an issue.
You seem aware that I called you out on it. Don't know why this is a shock to you.

And I don't like that your point, which should be your main point iirc because its what you lead off with, that I was misrepping you because its not a misrep. A misrep is when you say someone said something that they didn't say, which is not the case here. I will admit that me saying I am scum hunting by you pressuring me was not a smart move, but it also doesn't make me scum.

It means you were trying to get people to think I was Scum before you were Scum reading me. Do you have rocks in your head or something? Its like you don't understand anything I say.

No, I understand what you're saying, I'm asking why it matters. I don't think it does. You act like it does - why?

Rundown of events:
you try to convince people I am Scum.
We have a back and forth
You Scum read me.

IDK about you but that looks a little backwards to me. You should be trying to convince people I'm Scum AFTER you scum read me, not before.

It should look like this:

We have a back and forth
You Scum read me and try to convince people I am Scum.

But that's not what happened.

Because I think that is besides the point.

Not when you are claiming I was trying to point out that I was town - then it is very much to my point, and yours.

I would have no problem at all if all you said was "I'm town" but the fact that you said it was a Town

tell

is what I have a problem with. Its a playstyle thing for me. I don't like it when people are saying they are doing a Town tell, because that kind of thing can be planned if they are the ones to point it out. Its a very similar thing in the way that I don't believe something is a slip unless it is blatantly obvious that there was clearly ignorance of something such as posting in thread what you were suppose to post in the Mafia PT or something.

But that is exactly what you were doing though.

I agree that's what you're claiming I did.
I think you will agree I am calling that a misrep.
Clearly we disagree on reality - I think analysis of the post strongly supports my case, and have asked you to support yours and found you unable to do so (while also complaining that you didn't misrep me, and also complaining that I keep bringing it up - even though you can't actually justify how I was 'calling myself town' in a scummy way - and can't even honestly show that I was claling myself town short of crimping the quote and acting like everything I said before and after it had no bearing on my intent.

OK so here it is (I am now of sound mind now that I have gotten some sleep):

Its not a misrep. These are the facts:

You stated what you were doing is a town tell
I said you are pointing out your town tells

How the hell is that a misrep?

I would have no problem at all if all you said was "I'm town" but the fact that you said it was a Town

tell

is what I have a problem with. Its a playstyle thing for me. I don't like it when people are saying they are doing a Town tell, because that kind of thing can be planned if they are the ones to point it out. Its a very similar thing in the way that I don't believe something is a slip unless it is blatantly obvious that there was clearly ignorance of something such as posting in thread what you were suppose to post in the Mafia PT or something.

It stems from me having no idea why I am so misunderstood as a player. Like I am in disbelief that someone could be so bad at understanding me. Naturally I think some people are faking it. But then another side of me thinks that it is prolly just me.

If more than three people misunderstand you - then it is likely you.
The fact that you claim this happens all the time - yeah, it's you, that's just common sense.

This doesn't justify the play switch I'm talking about, I haven't seen much of this complaining 'woe is me' style in other games.
Do you agree or disagree with that assessment?
If you agree - why are you different today?
If you disagree - what evidence do you have to supplant my statement?

Just because it is me doesn't mean that people can't use that to their advantage.

if you haven't see me talk about the fact that I have a Scummy meta in other games then you clearly are not looking hard enough or at the right games. The reality is, I am getting more and more fed up with being lynchbait so I am talking about it more now.

And I am different today because I was previously really sleep deprived and am not not sleep deprived.

I can't help that I am misunderstood by so many people

Actually, yes, yes you can.

No, no, I can't.

You are basically saying that if you ask someone a question, that anyone commenting on what you said before that person answers is off limits, and I greatly disagree with that.

Why wouldn't you want to allow the scumhunting to go through prior to leaping in and getting in the way of it?

Because what I am looking at is a very experienced player pressure a newb and Scum reading them based on things that are not AI for newbs. It doesn't interfere with scum hunting as that person can still answer if I don't actually answer any question directed to that player, which I didn't.

Its the only way I know how to Scum hunt when I can barely respond to everything you throw at me. and that is not your actual reason iirc. Its either this or because you think I am misrepping you. So which is it?

It is the former - which is why I cited it when I voted you.
This is clearly not the only way you know how to scumhunt because you haven't done it in any of the games I've looked over so far - why are you lying to me when you know I'm reading your other games?

I am not lying. I haven't been in this situation where someone was relentlessly pressuring me with wall post for quite a while - you are not looking at the right games.

Here is a game where the same thing happened. Its not exactly the same, but it should be clear that there was a player who was Scum reading me because they didn't understand me. I didn't link this game before because its so old, but its still basically the same thing.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=61890

[LicketyQuickety]

but thor do you still sr lickety

I MEANT TO SAY ZYF HERE KJITR'EIWQ


ZYF, do you still SR Lickety? Could you explain that read a second time for me? Sorry to trouble you.

I still don't like their responses.
I get the sense that it might be genuine irritation because it happens to them often, but I don't fully buy it. They're a little too spiny for my taste.

@Lickety-
Can you please elaborate on your Pkm read? I honestly don't understand how that one post makes them equivalent with what frog and thor even /could/ be.

pkms post looks like newb Scum fmpov. both frog and Thor haven't interacted with pkm at all and both are voting me for what looks like to me, things that are not AI for me. I expect thor or frog, given their experience to try and get pkm to do something, anything besides not posting.

[LicketyQuickety]

Thor is already taking the lead in this game. I expected this, but didn't expect Thor to be so strong against a single person. Don't know that I like that as it can choke the content people might offer and possibly create a dynamic where no one thinks except Thor and the rest of Town doesn't know what to do so they just follow what seems easy. That said, its still really early in the game.

I think you're overstating the case here. It's Day 1 in a Newbie, so it to be expected that the IC is prominent in some way or other. What Thor is doing, independent of whether GreenNope is scum, is educating in RVS and when to vote. For what it's worth, I don't read GreenNope as scum.

@Impoetic: why is hesitation, in this instance, scummy?

That might not be the case - the vote in LicketyQuickety's post is within a failed quotation. It might count, but it isn't deliberate.

I think this is a really townie line, agreed or disagree I am starting to townread Froggie.

I think the random votes was only for testing but not really scum, at the best of the case two of the mafia is voting at the moment.

OK, so time to put my nuts on the table.

VOTE: PkmSilver

1) there is no reason to say "agree or disagree" it looks like a Scum tactic to say this because it should be obvious that they are stating a read someone can agree or disagree with.
2) on top of the fact that they said "agree or disagree" they are representing that they are strong in this read by saying that, which contradicts them saying they are "

starting

to townread Froggie."
3) RVS is only for testing so it should be NAI, but then they say its not really Scum which would be AI. They go on to say

best

case two of the mafia is voting at the moment. The reason I have issue with this is that it looks like they are trying look like they are analyzing things when really they aren't saying anything at all. It should be well apparent that two mafia may or may not be voting and I see no reason why that would make things any better than if Scum were not posting/voting. It implies that because mafia are voting that we would be able to read who is mafia better, but then where is the explanation for who mafia is?

[LicketyQuickety]

@frog
Thoughts on Pkm's reads?
Pedit-iunno, i don't want to lynch someone solely off a newb comment like that; it sounds to me more like a confused newb just trying to fit in a bit. Especially with their first post as well

There is a lot of time left on the clock. My read of pkm can change, but right now I feel its the best vote until I feel pkm does something I can Town read them for.

[LicketyQuickety]

So you think its a misrep when I say you are pointing out that you are Town telling... when you are in fact doing that? The fact that that was not your point does not hold any bearing whether you were doing it or not.

Yes it does.

No, it doesn't.

How about this: why is it a misrep? I'm not sure I understand that. Feel free to be as detailed with this as possible.

When the entire conversation was 'here is why the tell you are using isn't an alignment tell and here are examples to show it's not a valid alignment tell' and you come back with 'Thor is arguing it's a valid alignment tell that shows him as town' that is the definition of twisting my words and claiming I'm saying the opposite of what I'm saying.

I've said this to you many times before - you keep twisting it however to "hey, words that taken out of context say what I say they say!"
Which is pure misrep gak.

I am going to change my stance on this here. I believe what I said is based on a misconception of what you actually meant, rather than a misrep and if you don't think there is a difference between those two, then I am just going to call you narrow minded.

I will admit that me saying I am scum hunting by you pressuring me was not a smart move, but it also doesn't make me scum.

Fascinating - what does it make you?
Because I'm pretty certain it doesn't make you town.
Because I'm pretty sure that's a clear lie.

you are still under the assumption that I can't make mistakes as Town. What gives you that idea, anyways?

Rundown of events:
you try to convince people I am Scum.
We have a back and forth
You Scum read me.

IDK about you but that looks a little backwards to me. You should be trying to convince people I'm Scum AFTER you scum read me, not before.

It should look like this:

We have a back and forth
You Scum read me and try to convince people I am Scum.

But that's not what happened.

If you change "convince people you're scum" to "present evidence that I consider potential scum activity for consideration" then, oddly, the whole conversation magically makes perfect sense.
Strange that.

I don't really see the difference between the two, honestly. The only difference is that what you say you did is a soft Scum read as opposed to a hard Scum read.

if you haven't see me talk about the fact that I have a Scummy meta in other games then you clearly are not looking hard enough or at the right games. The reality is, I am getting more and more fed up with being lynchbait so I am talking about it more now.

And I am different today because I was previously really sleep deprived and am not not sleep deprived.

By today I meant this game, here, today, as opposed to past games.
You also didn't address my point - let's try this again.

I do not find any "woe is me and my scummy play" play in your other town games.
I do find it here.
Why?

And what about all the other meta you collected about me? Is that all moot? Have you seen me do the woe is me as Scum?

Because what I am looking at is a very experienced player pressure a newb and Scum reading them based on things that are not AI for newbs. It doesn't interfere with scum hunting as that person can still answer if I don't actually answer any question directed to that player, which I didn't.

SO you're saying I'm not allowed to pressure newbs in this game?
That would make it hard for me to do much, wouldn't it.
SO, really we get something that doesn't matter (relative experience) and something that is debatable (whether it was alignment telling) and a lack of awareness that answering other people's questions for them gaks with scumhunting.
Okay - good luck in other games when you do this and get called scummy for it.
Learn to stop doing it eventually.

Except I never actually kept GN from answering the questions directed to them. That is the difference that you are ignorant of.

I am not lying. I haven't been in this situation where someone was relentlessly pressuring me with wall post for quite a while - you are not looking at the right games.

You were kinda lying when you acted like I needed to link Micros you had played in to prove they existed.
You should have fully known they existed - so it was a weird response.

You (or someone else, but pretty sure it was you) asked why I was linking games that were so old. So I linked newer games thinking that is what you wanted and now you are saying I am lying about games I played in dec. I think you are not making a lot of sense here. I even explained I would like an old game a game before my hiatus and a recent game, which I did. but then you said why am I linking old games, so I linked newer ones and now you are saying why didn't I link a different old game.

Here is a game where the same thing happened. Its not exactly the same, but it should be clear that there was a player who was Scum reading me because they didn't understand me. I didn't link this game before because its so old, but its still basically the same thing.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=61890

To spare me some time, which was the player scumreading you whose interactions are similar - I'm starting to lose interest in full data mining your games.

convenient.

[LicketyQuickety]

Please elaborate.

Why is PKM townish? Could you give more detail on that?

I find the case on him to be really silly, and I find him listing me as a townread after a fairly aggressive rush from me at him early on to be more likely to come from town who is trying to get reads than scum extending an olive branch to someone they must think scum reads them.

Oh, please that's NAI and you know it.

[LicketyQuickety]

@LQ Sorry if you already explained it and I missed it. Are you sure your "accidental" vote on GreenNope wasn't on purpose, to test who would overreact?

I was not the one who messed up the quote to begin with! I actually had to go back and look to see what quote it was and insert the correct link shit so it was fixed. Feel free to go back and look.

[LicketyQuickety]

pkm,

Can you do... something? Something Townie would be best.

[LicketyQuickety]

And no thor, I don't really see how Lickety's scum. Can you sum it up in something within the length of 5 sentences, because your walls are hard to follow, especially when directed at multiple people at once.

Sure, I did it once already;

I dinged him for misrepping me.
I called him scummy because he claimed that he started splitting hairs in defense of himself in order to scumhunt me (and, I'll note - has produced zero reads from doing so)

He claims he didn't misrep me because *Thor said the word town and his own name thus suggesting wanting to connect them!* - serious, that's what he has claimed most recently.
He has defended his splitting hairs thing by claiming he does that elsewhere - and I've claimed I have found no evidence of that in looking over his games and asked him to maybe show me one instance - he has not managed that.

Also, as a tertiary, late thing, I have claimed that his meta here does not match up with his town meta in other games, and is much more AtE loaded here than elsewhere.

That's the argument in a nutshell.
Do you follow it now?

4 sentences, maybe 5 depending how you count parentheticals.
Since then LQ has shifted "I didn't misrep you Thor" to "I misunderstood you Thor" because he recognizes that his argument has no support - now, I personally still have issue with that because the argument had no support from the get go, and that it took multiple days/pages to get him to admit that much curls my toes, but you should have the awareness he made that shift to draw your own conclusions.

I find it comical that you don't think there was any reason for me to misunderstand what you said in the first place. I clearly am not the only offender here. You never really got across why it was a misrep. You said I was twisting your words when I wasn't - I was just seeing something in the way you posted things to mean something different than what you intended.

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't like the way this game is going. Especially since Thor has been concerned primarily with a single issue almost the entire game and almost everything he does revolves around that.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm starting to feel better about pkm, but don't know if he is being coached or not.

Hmm..

Not liking Dewy pushing that pkm is Scum still. frog I understand, but I don't get Dewy.

[LicketyQuickety]

@LQ

1) there is no reason to say "agree or disagree" it looks like a Scum tactic to say this because it should be obvious that they are stating a read someone can agree or disagree with.

IMO, this is NAI because from the way, I interpreted it, it wasn't really a wagon statement.

2) on top of the fact that they said "agree or disagree" they are representing that they are strong in this read by saying that, which contradicts them saying they are "

starting

to townread Froggie."

Not seeing how this is scum indicative because players can get reads at different times.

Missed this the first time around.

Dewy what is you read on PKM? You are kinda waffling on that slot a lot.

[LicketyQuickety]

I hear this sort of thing a lot.
I'll respond with the answer that always defeats it, let's see if you can overcome this dread rebuttal (few do);

What is the subject you feel I'm not discussing? I would be happy to provide my thoughts on it.

Usually I don't even get an answer to this question, so if you can even answer it you're ahead of most.
(I don't think you can answer it - because I think you're still making up stuff about me)

OK, I'll start with this: frogs read on me. Lots to discuss about that that you seem to be leaving alone.

[LicketyQuickety]

Anyways, gunna reread the game since I've kinda been neglecting this one a bit.

[LicketyQuickety]

So why did you vote early then?

You pointed it out, is it not obvious?

This looks like Town snark to me.

[LicketyQuickety]

Well, yes, I understand that I was pressuring your stated logic of "I find Thor scummy but am not voting him" I think we both get that.
But if your next set of logic is "I don't like to vote early until I get a feel for the game" then why didn't you say that to me as the reason you didn't vote instead of voting?

I think my interpretation is a little different. I read it as "GN, I dare you to vote me" and GN saying "suit yourself". Thor is using this as ammo to paint GN to look like Scum because GN just isn't articulating themselves the best.

I mean, it's not like I was twisting your arm, but as soon as I pointed out that your logic should have you voting - you voted.

That doesn't jive with the stated concept of not voting for a while until you get a feel for the game - feels like you were trying to appease me/cover up your lack of logic in voting me rather than saying what you actually honestly think.

This is painfully splitting hairs in a way that makes Thors target(s) look bad, but I am not seeing the scum motive in what GN is saying. Also, it looks pretty apparent by the bold that Thor does in fact understand what GN is saying and where they are coming from, but are pressuring them anyways.

[LicketyQuickety]

Thor is already taking the lead in this game. I expected this, but didn't expect Thor to be so strong against a single person. Don't know that I like that as it can choke the content people might offer and possibly create a dynamic where no one thinks except Thor and the rest of Town doesn't know what to do so they just follow what seems easy. That said, its still really early in the game.

I think you're overstating the case here. It's Day 1 in a Newbie, so it to be expected that the IC is prominent in some way or other. What Thor is doing, independent of whether GreenNope is scum, is educating in RVS and when to vote. For what it's worth, I don't read GreenNope as scum.

@Impoetic: why is hesitation, in this instance, scummy?

This could be a telling post based on if who frog pushes flips Town ie. pkm.

[LicketyQuickety]

I hear this sort of thing a lot.
I'll respond with the answer that always defeats it, let's see if you can overcome this dread rebuttal (few do);

What is the subject you feel I'm not discussing? I would be happy to provide my thoughts on it.

Usually I don't even get an answer to this question, so if you can even answer it you're ahead of most.
(I don't think you can answer it - because I think you're still making up stuff about me)

OK, I'll start with this: frogs read on me. Lots to discuss about that that you seem to be leaving alone.

What is his read that I've been leaving alone?
Because I've continually been bringing you up to him, and most recently he has straight up told me he agrees with me, but with the caveat that he wants to push Pkm a bit.
What am I supposed to be doing, reminding everyone he agrees with me?
Challenging him for agreeing with me?
I don't get the thing you think I need to address...clarify?

I don't believe frong is sheeping you so you bring up a moot point.

[LicketyQuickety]

Also, I am seeing what you're seeing with regards to LicketyQuickety. I just don't think adding more pressure will get us much at this stage, especially not if his activity is going to decrease. If he ends up being a viable lynch or I think we could gain something from pushing him, then I'd happily switch wagons, but I like where I am now just fine.

Like, here's his last comment.
He is answering me.
He is answering me *because I'm discussing with him his read on you*.
Which means I am discussing that.

frogs read on me is more subtle than that. You disagree?

[LicketyQuickety]

So you no longer believe that the best play is to hold off on early votes?

No.

Just to clarify for myself, since this is a double negative, could you phrase your answer in a complete sentence to make sure I understand your stance.

Thor is already taking the lead in this game. I expected this, but didn't expect Thor to be so strong against a single person. Don't know that I like that as it can choke the content people might offer and possibly create a dynamic where no one thinks except Thor and the rest of Town doesn't know what to do so they just follow what seems easy. That said, its still really early in the game.

yeah, how strange that I'm only interacting with the only slot that's posting....yup.
???

Great opening post. Like you for Town because of it. I also was thinking GN was a bit Sus. Not enough for a vote, but do like this analysis.

You actually are currently voting GreenNope - fixing a post doesn't prevent a vote from going through methinks.
Did you really not notice that?

Just to clarify for everyone - GreenNope has 3 votes on them currently, not 2, unless a vote count after Lickety's posts says otherwise.

Thor, you said later that this was part reaction test.. in what ways would I have responded that would lead you to an

accurate

read on me?

[LicketyQuickety]

It seems pretty unintuitive to me for the mod to count the obvious accidental vote and then refuse to acknowledge the EBWOP as an unvote, so I really doubt it counts. It's probably not listed in the rules because it's such a random scenario.

It is fine if it is unintuitive to you - that said, i assure you there are many mods on this site who would count that vote.
I like to be careful about my vote - I advocate everyone does the same because it cuts down on derp hammers.

Unvote: PkmSilver
Vote: GreenNope

Thor is here advocating that I was not being careful with my vote, which is complete bogus because at this stage of the game I hadn't even voted yet. If thor wants to say we should be careful with our vote I that would be one thing, but he never mentions here about being careful with quotes, which I think is the more important matter that transpired.

[LicketyQuickety]

@GreenNope

Okay - how does that make them more likely to vote second?

For instance, what if PKMSilver is scum? That would make it less likely for him to be voted by scum, yet more likely to be voted by town - making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.
Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does) which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.
Also, let's say I am scum, and you are town, if someone agrees with you that I am scum for placing a second vote, and votes me - would that then make me town and them scum, forcing you to move your vote? Or does your tell only apply for the very first second vote of the game?

I don't feel like you're actually thinking this through - am I missing something?

@PkmSilver

Do you have any reads currently?

No Town tell about it.. Scum distance each other early, its a pretty common thing. Also, if you are Scum with PKM then there are no more Scum to even vote for them. And lets not forget that your vote on PKM didn't really add any pressure to them at all, but you decided to go after someone else in stead. Don't know that I like you trying to obviously point out your own Town tells. Don't like that at all. Obviously that doesn't matter too much until we get flips, but still.

Let it be known that this was the post in question that stated this shit fest with thor. He at one point tried to dress this up as me answering a question for pkm, which he never admitted he was wrong there.

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't think he has particularly towntold. Also, I still think a new player might not be as quick to deny their own reads as town.

What reads did he deny?

@GreenNope

Okay - how does that make them more likely to vote second?

For instance, what if PKMSilver is scum? That would make it less likely for him to be voted by scum, yet more likely to be voted by town - making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.
Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does) which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.
Also, let's say I am scum, and you are town, if someone agrees with you that I am scum for placing a second vote, and votes me - would that then make me town and them scum, forcing you to move your vote? Or does your tell only apply for the very first second vote of the game?

I don't feel like you're actually thinking this through - am I missing something?

@PkmSilver

Do you have any reads currently?

No Town tell about it.. Scum distance each other early, its a pretty common thing. Also, if you are Scum with PKM then there are no more Scum to even vote for them. And lets not forget that your vote on PKM didn't really add any pressure to them at all, but you decided to go after someone else in stead. Don't know that I like you trying to obviously point out your own Town tells. Don't like that at all. Obviously that doesn't matter too much until we get flips, but still.

@LQ - why are you answering a question I asked GreenNope while not actually answering the question I did ask you?
I'll repeat the question to you - Do you have any reads currently?
Please answer both of those.

As to your other thing - there is *nothing* in my post that suggests I'm pointing out my own town tells - where are you getting that conclusion?

Then Thor drops this and later dresses this one up to mean that he said there is an equal chance that he is Scum as he is Town based on the post I quoted from him.

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't think he has particularly towntold. Also, I still think a new player might not be as quick to deny their own reads as town.

What reads did he deny?

@GreenNope

Okay - how does that make them more likely to vote second?

For instance, what if PKMSilver is scum? That would make it less likely for him to be voted by scum, yet more likely to be voted by town - making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.
Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does) which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.
Also, let's say I am scum, and you are town, if someone agrees with you that I am scum for placing a second vote, and votes me - would that then make me town and them scum, forcing you to move your vote? Or does your tell only apply for the very first second vote of the game?

I don't feel like you're actually thinking this through - am I missing something?

@PkmSilver

Do you have any reads currently?

No Town tell about it.. Scum distance each other early, its a pretty common thing. Also, if you are Scum with PKM then there are no more Scum to even vote for them. And lets not forget that your vote on PKM didn't really add any pressure to them at all, but you decided to go after someone else in stead. Don't know that I like you trying to obviously point out your own Town tells. Don't like that at all. Obviously that doesn't matter too much until we get flips, but still.

@LQ - why are you answering a question I asked GreenNope while not actually answering the question I did ask you?
I'll repeat the question to you - Do you have any reads currently?
Please answer both of those.

As to your other thing - there is *nothing* in my post that suggests I'm pointing out my own town tells - where are you getting that conclusion?

Then Thor drops this and later dresses this one up to mean that he said there is an equal chance that he is Scum as he is Town based on the post I quoted from him.

Not only that, but he says he will repeat the question - the one to pkm which he is now directing to me, but I'm not really sure who he is directing that question to.

[LicketyQuickety]

Then the shit fest starts with Thors post 83 where he totally neglects to point out exactly how it was a misrep. Accusing someone of a misrep is a pretty serious claim to be making and I think its only fair that the party being accused knows

exactly

why it is a misrep at first instance. If Thor is using saying I am misrepping him as a Scum tactic, then that is pretty low IMO and I don't think I am alone in that.

[LicketyQuickety]

That's enough for now, will get back to this later after I wake up.

[LicketyQuickety]

Thor, how is it different between PKM and GN?

[LicketyQuickety]

Reads list:

Town:
Zyf - highest Town read. complete and utter obvtown.
Dewy - I like what they are doing. They are obviously trying to solve the game. I'm pretty confident they are Town, but not completely sure like zyf

Town lean:
GreenNope (or replacement) - This is a slot that is just really misunderstood. Only thing that gives me reserves is that I think they are replacing out
Impoetic - They have kinda fallen from top tier Town read with some things they have said, but overall they look pretty good.

Null:
frog - Like I feel their reasoning is pretty solid, but they have kinda taken a wait and see approach that I don't like a ton.
Jae - Like no activity from this slot all game. I don't see any reason to give a Town or Scum read here.
thor - like I feel all his reasons for things are based on the articulation of what was said including his own and I just can't give him a Town read for that.

Scum Lean:
Pkmsilver - I can't say I really like anything they have done. Everything just seems kinda empty. There is a chance they are Town and just not understanding anything, but if that's the case and they flip Town, I'm not sure where that leaves my reads.

[LicketyQuickety]

It's simply a communication issue.

Welcome to this game.
Would you mind explaining your read on Dewy in a bit more detail? Truth be told, I can't see why people have her down as such strong town, and since you've just been through the game I think your opinion here might be valuable. My issues with her are that she rarely adds anything original, instead rehearsing what has already gone on (see her catch-up posts for the best demonstration of this), and is very quick to pounce on minor issues as if they are 'scumslips'.

With PkmSilver being replaced out, we're hardly going to get answers to our questions, sadly.
UNVOTE:

For now. I still have my suspicions, but I'll wait for their replacement to get in here.

@LicketyQuickety: of all of your null or townreads, which one do you think you are most likely to be wrong on?

@Kittymo: could we get an extension of a day or two, please?

Dewy

[LicketyQuickety]

Thor, If you are Town this game, you are going to learn some things this game playing with me, namely, that you need to approach day 1 differently.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm not moving form silver.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Ranger

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Ranger

Sorry, wrong thread.

[LicketyQuickety]

Claiming intent.

[LicketyQuickety]

UNVOTE:

I'm really not liking this right now.

@Dewy I'm pretty sure Impoetic is just lost town.

What exactly is going on?

You keep pinging me, man q.q It's trashing my townread on you and making me paranoid that Dewy isn't gonna flip scum.

On the plus side, Dewy scum pretty much clears you as far as I'm concerned.

Its not like we have all game to decide though.

[LicketyQuickety]

Mala will be the hardest person to get a read on. I played in one game with mala and their activity was the same, but they were Town.

@Mala, would appreciate it if you could do some things to show you are Town.

[LicketyQuickety]

We have two people voting me, and two people indicating willingness/desire to vote me and it's a page into the day.
This is obvious.

People are voting you because you are trying to push a bad lynch who everyone else has a Town read on.

[LicketyQuickety]

If that's true, I should have been lynched yesterday - but keep selling that scum story.

For that to be true, we would've needed a Town lynch Day 1. We got a Scum lynch day 1 so that changes things.

[LicketyQuickety]

I agree, my lynch would have been a town one...thanks?

Not what I was saying and you know that I think. You first assumed I was Scum reading you when I said people want to vote you because you are pushing a lynch that most people read as Town. You said I was Scum reading you for this, but I didn't explicitly state that. This can be interpreted as an admission of guilt in some respects. You then say that I am saying that would make you a Town lynch which would be a non-sequitur.

[LicketyQuickety]

Mala will be the hardest person to get a read on. I played in one game with mala and their activity was the same, but they were Town.

@Mala, would appreciate it if you could do some things to show you are Town.

I know what game you are talking about and I was pretty damn readable in the beginning when I was able to post a ton, but slowed down when I got busy. So I was pretty easy to get a read on when I'm around. The timing of this game was the worst because of being half Vla and then a final and then night. So the fact I haven't been able to catch up is due to timing itself rather than anything else

I can kinda agree with that actually. I don't think I liked your lynch that day which I stated. but the point was that you were lynched. I guess I am just asking you to be around when you can be and make yourself look like a Townie so I don't have to worry about you lurking through the game because if you can do it as Town, you sure as hell can do it as Scum as well.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Mala, Thoughts on Thor?

[LicketyQuickety]

Oh I'm thinking of another game. Musical Mafia mb

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=62976

I am talking about this game.

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't have a read on thor and I probably won't. I can't read him worth of shit.

Thoughts on other players then? the more detailed the better.

[LicketyQuickety]

I really haven't read so I can't answer that. I'm going to try in a little bit. I been up for 2 hrs and I'm still half asleep~ plus I gotta go to another rig check because I didn't do it warlier

Please do something this game. I don't mean to sound rude, but if you are just going to play super passively and not make any stances all game why even play? I just don't want to have to worry about activity from you slot.

[LicketyQuickety]

I agree, my lynch would have been a town one...thanks?

Not what I was saying and you know that I think. You first assumed I was Scum reading you when I said people want to vote you because you are pushing a lynch that most people read as Town. You said I was Scum reading you for this, but I didn't explicitly state that. This can be interpreted as an admission of guilt in some respects. You then say that I am saying that would make you a Town lynch which would be a non-sequitur.

I didn't say you were scum reading me for that,

nor is saying that if we had lynched me yesterday that I would flip town a non-sequitor when you were talking about the lynch yesterday.

What did you mean by this then:

If that's true, I should have been lynched yesterday -

but keep selling that scum story.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Mod

,

I will be V/LA from the 28th to the 4th. I am going on vacation and have no idea what my activity situation is going to be like.

[LicketyQuickety]

What did you mean by this then:

If that's true, I should have been lynched yesterday -

but keep selling that scum story.

I meant that you were scum and misrepresenting what was happening in thread.

You can tell because I say "if that's true" and present what should have happened - showing that it wasn't true.
Also I called you scum selling a story.

you know as well as I, if not should know more so, that Town doesn't even come close to doing what they

should

do most of the time so your point is moot. You still have yet to provide a case on me that is not based on misconception if that.

[LicketyQuickety]

you know as well as I, if not should know more so, that Town doesn't even come close to doing what they should do most of the time so your point is moot. You still have yet to provide a case on me that is not based on misconception if that.

I have exactly presented a case on you, and you have actually agreed that you misunderstood me when you attacked me - the only difference is I think you intentionally "misunderstood" me (aka misrepped me) and you want the story to be you're town and it was an innocent gaff.

Innocent gaffs don't require ten pages of debate to realize you may have misread something.
Misreps *DO*.

the case on you is just as valid as your case on me if not more so. Both rely on things that cannot be proven. However, more people agree that the case on you is stronger than the case on me. You are going to have to pick a different target to get lynched because people are just not believing the line you are throwing and that's the only thing that really matters in this game.

[LicketyQuickety]

buzzword
noun informal
a word or phrase, often an item of jargon, that is fashionable at a particular time or in a particular context.

contrived
adjective
deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.

Don't think "contrived" is a buzzword, tbh.

Oh sweet Jesus

Eh, besides that... You had really flimsy reasoning to townread Dewy and you were actually here for the whole game. How's that?

Well, okay, let's talk about that.
As a start - why was my read "flimsy"?
I described the read.
I don't agree that it was flimsy.
What makes the read flimsy, so I can explain how it isn't?

LQ is my strongest townread. Has been since the start. Voting him would be POE. Voting you over Mala due to associates with the Dewy slot being stronger is a little different.

What are the associatives?
Stop using the word without explaining them.
This is why the case is empty and doesn't exist.

You're not even trying to see this from the POV of the person you're trying to bargain with.

Because a townread on LQ seems insane to me it never occurred to me that was your top town read.
I guess if that's reality you are voting in the right place for you, but I weep at that read.

I am Scum reading Thor on top of the reason of association with Dewy because thor never clarifies himself voluntarily, but instead decides to throw back the question to the people giving him reasons why he is Scum there by forcing the discussion to go longer than it needs to be and making it difficult for people to articulate what they mean. I view this as Scummy given Thor's experience and I am assuming he should know what people are talking about better than what he is representing in discussion. Furthermore, Thor never really comes from the POV that he understands, but rather the POV that he does not understand. In other words, Thor is playing dumb and causing a case against him harder to make due to technicalities rather than getting to the heart of the issue right away. He never has admitted that he has done this and will continue to make it difficult for people to get an accurate read on him by way of drawing out the discussion longer than it needs to be.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm V/LA until the 4th. I'm going on vacation for a week. I'm leaving in about 4 hours and not getting back until the 4th.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Thor665, I understand that you have experience to put me to shame. What could/can I do to up my game?

[LicketyQuickety]

You looked like easy lynchbait to me because you used weak logic (always a solid opener) and then followed it with near utter shut down (to which I am amazed town was okay with - seriously, I figured that was a gimmee lynch).

I would say the first part is fairly innocent in the grand scheme, I played up the scumminess (and, to be frank, had I been town I'd probably have supported that lynch) but what really hurt you, and hurt your team to my mind was the shutdown. It got to a point where you would be barely here, and when you were here you'd offer up nothing beyond a generic invective at me, followed by more lurk. I'm not sure if that was due to RL, or too many game commitments, or just personal antipathy towards this game - but whatever the reason it was not a healthy reaction for town. As town you owe it to your fellow town players to be part of the game, offer your thoughts on things that concern you *and also* things that concern other players. Being reasonably active and communicative is the base building block of literally every single "good" Mafia player I've ever seen - even DGB communicated with others and would respond to questions and comments, and if DGB can do it, everyone should be able to.

tl:dr - stay involved.

I was over committed to games. I stopped caring about some of them. This was before I went on vacation. Had I internet access while on vacation, I would have voted for you later. I didn't vote you before I went on vacation because I thought it was far too early in the game day to vote someone off. I feel your push on me was too strong which is why I found you suspicious. In short, you have too much experience to be so sure I was Scum. That is my assumption, though I could be wrong and I could just be a kind of player you have not run into before or very often.

Because of my unique playstyle, it allows me to get reads on people based on the way they read me to some degree. If they Scum read me for things that I don't think are alignment indicative for me, I view it as them having a good chance at being Scum. Most people don't think something like that should/would work but it works a decent amount of the time. TBH, and quite frank, I

am

a hard player to read for people who have a lot of experience because I don't play the way most people do. Read my siggy for the reason for that. Basically, I though logic out the window when I play because I know the more logical someone plays, the harder it is to catch them making a logical fallacy. People like that, people like you, you have to read them by other means other than judging them based on the logic to their posts. It should be noted that my

deduction

skills are not the best but that is not how I get reads anyways. What I get reads from is from posts that ping me. I then investigate their other posts to see if the post that set off alarm bells to me has merit. I don't think I am a terrible player, but I will say that I am one of the most misunderstood especially to logical type players. I have difficulty articulating why I think something is Scummy but I am right my fair share of the time. And you are absolutely correct that I am lynch bait much of the time to certain types of players. But take mastin2 for example. She thinks I am one of the easiest Town reads to spot. What I have noticed is that logical players/people have difficulty reading me and people that tend to read more into the persons character have an easier time reading me. Ofc there is some overlap.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm pretty sure I solo carried this game.

This is where I make my realist joke.

You didn't carry the game, not by a long shot. I mean, I get the joke, but I'm trying to be a realist here.

[LicketyQuickety]

Regarding site meta: so this is my first completed game since 2014, and I have to say I do think the meta has changed, in some ways substantially, since then. I'm trying to play like it is two years ago, making some cases, not trusting gut reads, leaving none of my suspicions at the side, and so on. I still feel like that's my preferred way to play, to be honest. I don't know, what does everyone else think?

The reason that Site meta on

this

site has changed is because there are a lot more people playing now and moving around from site to site. A ton of people who come into the newbie queue have played elsewhere in some form or another and I don't know if that is the case for way back in the day. Thor would have a better idea of this than me. People just don't segregate between sites as much as they use to.