Newbie 1761: Welcome to Mafia (Game Over)

[Deimos27]

VOTE: Clemency
What are you doing here?

[Deimos27]

Cheetory, give me some insight as to your thought process. Why not join the Clem wagon?

[Deimos27]

I figured.

[Deimos27]

9 is me trying to sort, 11 is because his reply was exactly what I expected. That there just wasn't a good joke to make about Clemency.

Zaraki where is your RVS vote?

[Deimos27]

This first portion of the game is called RVS or Random-Voting-Stage. People tend to do silly votes/votes with generally simple reasoning to try and get things started off.

Vote: karldilkington
More like karlDEADkington.

[Deimos27]

He's trying to egg people into rando'ing

So did you read #17 or what? You're supposed to random vote at the beginning of the game. It generates discussion. At least you're participating now, albeit in a way I very much disagree with.

[Deimos27]

The random voting isn't meant to lynch people. It's meant to pressure and start discussion. After we exit the stage, random voting becomes pointless.

[Deimos27]

1) Yes you are correct.
2) I was planning to, just not with my first post.

What are these replying to?

As I stated before random lynching and by extensión voting seem very scummy to me.

All in all, I didn't plan to vote on Dei, he just seemed kinda suspicion on the logic.
(P.S. Good morning.)

You simply cannot make this extension to random voting. As I already said, voting ≠ lynching. In fact, at the beginning of the game it is a helpful tool to generate discussions such as this one.

Anyway, the way Zaraki clings to his vote without reason, despite all the arguments that have been given against it, it's pinging me hard.
VOTE: Zaraki
So what are your reasons that refute #27 and #56?

[Deimos27]

RQS
1) Staying under the radar, dodging questions and participating unmeaningfully to discussion. Lurking I believe is anti-town but not necessarily a scumtell per se. It can, and possibly will affect my reads though.

2) Scumhunting and actively asking questions, in general attempting to participate in a meaningful manner.

3) I don't really think about things like this. RBs and Cops probably.

[Deimos27]

Hmm, ok. It'd better be good though, or there's gonna be questions.

Pinged me. Also it seems weird how karl doesn't vote Zaraki after #68, considering he seems to be scumreading Zara and he hasn't even placed a vote yet. I'm feeling a Zaraki/Karldil team rn.

[Deimos27]

The reason I asked the questions is because his actions suggest he must have some reasons to still be against RVS, despite all the arguments we gave. Yet I haven't heard a single one of said reasons. You don't find that odd? It seems like his entrance was a kind of

"Uhh, well, I guess I need to vote someone now. Let's come up with some nonsense miscontrived faux pas to create a half-hearted reason to push someone."

That's why I need to hear his thought process.

I'll admit, it's mainly gut.

[Deimos27]

Back then it was gut.

Anyway, the way Zaraki clings to his vote without reason, despite all the arguments that have been given against it, it's pinging me hard.

Now there's more.

On balance, given it's hastiness I would say it was a scummy backpedal. I'll let Zaraki explain himself before I start voting though.

I'm not ready to lynch him yet. But he was clearly the best place for my vote, and a stale RVS vote is not accomplishing anything. My vote did manage to draw his backpedal reaction did it not?

[Deimos27]

Can you try and maybe put this "ping" into words?

For one reason or another, what was said "pinged' my intuition.

Maybe the tone felt off, maybe the wording was weird. In any case, it generally means a gut scumlean.

[Deimos27]

Assuming we have a Cheetory lynch and he flips scum, I can see Clemency as the partner for a number of reasons.

a) I know from experience that Clemency loves to play scum and dislikes playing town. So I thought he'd be frustrated being town again after last game (see sig). However he instead seems sort of cheery and more motivated.

b) During RVS Clemency had two votes and Karl only one. Cheetory voted Karl instead of building a bandwagon on Clem, which I believe is pro-town in RVS. It is conceivable that he didn't want to put his partner to L-2 so soon. Maybe to remove some pressure from Clemency. This is why I originally asked for Cheetory's reason not to join the Clem wagon.

This is how I feel at the moment

if

Cheetory were to get lynched and flip red.

PEdit - @Zaraki in what way was I getting in your face and forcing you to vote? I only asked where your vote was, and then quoted Cheetory's explanation of RVS when you asked about it. I also don't see how this made you "frustrated and angry". This is a massive over-reaction. Also your tone in the post that you voted me in actually didn't really sound very frustrated or angry.

I'd still very much like to hear your reasons for disapproving of RVS. As I honestly believe that RVS is pro-town why would I not want to explain to a newer player why this is the case?

[Deimos27]

Zaraki's explained his backpedals. I have some opinions about his post.

@Deimos, can you answer this

Say you're correct that his reasoning for his vote on you was contrived. What makes you think he is scum making up a reason to vote for you, rather than newb town not knowing how to scumhunt but wanting to try?

again please?

Also a new question: do you believe Zaraki that his vote was out of frustration at being told how to play?

1. I answered this in #96

2. I don't believe how someone could become frustrated based on that one line that I spoke: "Where is your RVS vote?"

However, @Zaraki. Relevant question:
How old are you?
How would your friends describe your behaviour?

[Deimos27]

Oh, great. I'm getting scumread in my very first town game on this site. Lovely. If you were to mislynch me today, please remember that it's your own faults for misreading me whilst I'm here playing the best I can. I don't want any: "Oh, it's his fault because he was like playing bad and stuff!"

Keep this in mind. ^

And what's bad about voicing my opinion when I get one?

Anyway, the reason I asked about Zaraki, is because age influences maturity, which influences posting style. I now see #133 as him being honestly flustered and annoyed, whilst trying his best to be patient and explain. A lot of emotions that are hard to fake.

UNVOTE:

And this is

not

a "backpedal". Why would I retreat on my read on Zaraki after just getting more support from xnad?

@Mort. I'm tired of your games. You didn't even rephrase the question. Look, it was gut! Something super complicated about that which you don't understand?

[Deimos27]

This is not how I expected him to react at all. Extremely defensive isn't really your style, Deimos, and weren't you the one to question "age influences maturity, which influences posting style" (which is a direct quote from our last game) the first time you heard it?

This extreme defensiveness feels slightly feigned but it's not how I would expect scum!Deimos to act either.
Generally getting a really bad vibe so far.

Quote where I said this. Also remind me, was I scum or town in that game, hm?

[Deimos27]

No, what I'm saying is that I was scum in that game, so even if I said this it means nothing.

[Deimos27]

I'm tired and frustrated. Not a way to feel whilst playing this game. I'll do the responsible thing and get back when I've cooled off, m'kay? Try not to lynch me in the meantime.

[Deimos27]

Okay could you compile them into a single post please? They're kind of all over the place at this point.

[Deimos27]

Fair enough Mort, but I really don't recall saying that I was against this conclusion in the first place. I asked Clem to quote it too, but he has not. I repeat this request.

I feel a lot better now and I think I've placed my finger on why I was feeling so flustered. I'll elaborate and answer your questions in my next few posts. (May or may not come immediately as I have little time at the moment.)

[Deimos27]

Okay. I'd like to apologize for everything said last page. (Except the paragraph about Zaraki, I really meant that.)

I haven't been able to read jack this game and I feel kind of pressured to do well, because
a) Before we joined ms, I made a promise to Clemency that we'd try to become the best on the site. Obviously not very likely, but one can dream.

b) I think of myself as a reasonable player as town, and Clemency agrees. So maybe I feel like I should be leading, playing well, asking questions, when this is clearly not the case this game, because as I said,

I can't read anyone...

I think this is why I was so frustrated. I'm generally very overly self-critical anyway.

A lot of you probably aren't feeling very inclined to want to play with me again after my play so far this game (I honestly feel like I was a better town in my scum game), but I'm gonna go ahead and make that right immediately. If anything, the experience I just had has made me more motivated than ever.

@Mort - Answers incoming in my next post.

[Deimos27]

Spoiler: My Answers

180 - I don't know why I was so short and concise. However I can guarantee to you that was my thought process. Not that you have any reason to just take my word for it.

I didn't question the vote before Cheetory's because I felt that a person wouldn't want to vote the same person for the third post in a row, that putting someone to L-2 so soon would not be something people are inclined to do, in RVS at least.

182 - In contrast to his usual playstyle. However as Clemency pointed out, he did say that he was gonna start trying harder, which I missed. Besides, I did say

if

we have a Cheetory scum flip.

187 - a) No, nothing invalid. It just feels horrible to me. I love scumhunting, but here I'm busy trying to constantly defend myself. See by previous post for why I think I was so frustrated.

b) This is about the Cheetory/Clemency thing. People said it was a weird thing to say, but it was my opinion so I voiced it.

c) I wanted to defend myself before anyone had a chance to point it out. Because I felt that saying it after someone called me out on "backpedalling" would seem scummy. I feel like I'm already extreme lynchbait.

188 - #178 and #184 made me feel this way.

190 - Not necessarily. Scummiest out of everyone else I guess but there is so stunningly little content it's difficult to say.

199 - No offense, but I care about what Clemency thinks more than what you think. Especially when he goes and straight up lies about my actions last game (as far as my recollection). Clemency and I are friends IRL, although currently on different continents.

Mort, you're playing really well so far, very townie. Assume I'm also town and give me your thoughts on everyone else in the game. Who are your top picks for scum?

[Deimos27]

a) I know from experience that Clemency loves to play scum and dislikes playing town. So I thought he'd be frustrated being town again after last game (see sig). However he instead seems sort of cheery and more motivated.

Explain this more? Clem doesn't seem motivated to me at all. He only willingly produces content once prodded to.

182 - In contrast to his usual playstyle. However as Clemency pointed out, he did say that he was gonna start trying harder, which I missed. Besides, I did say

if

we have a Cheetory scum flip.

I don't think you understood. Your argument:

1) Clem enjoys playing scum roles more than town roles.
2) Clem seems to be cheery and motivated this game.
3) Therefore, it is more likely that Clem is scum than town.

I don't see how this makes sense. You're saying: "as Clemency pointed out, he did say that he was gonna start trying harder, which I missed." By your own argument, wouldn't trying harder make Clem scummy? Your argument basically implies that, for Clem, anti-town play is townplay. I was trying to see if this is what you meant.

Nah. He decided last game that he would start focusing and putting more effort into playing town. Therefore he does it as both alignments. Therefore it's NAI.

Assuming we have a Cheetory lynch and he flips scum, I can see Clemency as the partner for a number of reasons.

Do you think Cheetory is scum?

190 - Not necessarily. Scummiest out of everyone else I guess but there is so stunningly little content it's difficult to say.

Why is he scummy?

Scummier than everyone else. Because he's supposed to be the IC but he's somewhat lurking and joking around, not really participating too meaningfully. In this case "scummiest out of everyone else" means pretty close to null though.

199 - No offense, but I care about what Clemency thinks more than what you think. Especially when he goes and straight up lies about my actions last game (as far as my recollection). Clemency and I are friends IRL, although currently on different continents.

I don't see how any of this is relevant. If you said X last game and ~X this game, who cares whether you value Clem's opinion more than mine? I want to look into it.

This was your question in 199:

Why are you focusing on meta stuff and not answering my questions?

I was focusing on Clemency's statements (partly via meta), as opposed to your questions. Therefore my answer was perfectly relevant to your question. As to the X and ~X thing, this was already answered in #207, and now Clemency confirmed in #220.

[Deimos27]

Mort, you're playing really well so far, very townie.

Thanks.

Assume I'm also town

No.

give me your thoughts on everyone else in the game. Who are your top picks for scum?

Town - Zaraki, Algebra
Town lean - Clem, Karl
Null - Cheetory, Arc
Scum lean - Xnad
Scum - Deimos

Sure, but assuming I'm town, who would be your top picks for scum? Also, who do you think is my scumpartner if I'm scum?

[Deimos27]

Sorry I haven't been posting. I was on a cruise without Wi-Fi. Currently we're at an internet café but well be embarking again soon so I won't be able to catch up or post until Monday. Just quickly coming online to say

V/LA until Monday

[Deimos27]

Never mind it's Sunday already. Correction:

V/LA till Tuesday

[Deimos27]

I have a minute of time to talk here, so let me point this one thing out:

give me your thoughts on everyone else in the game. Who are your top picks for scum?

Town - Zaraki, Algebra
Town lean - Clem, Karl
Null - Cheetory, Arc
Scum lean - Xnad
Scum - Deimos

Clem is up there as a townlean. M'kay.

Sure, but assuming I'm town, who would be your top picks for scum?

Probably Xnad. Maybe Clem.

Woah what? Clem just bounced down from above Cheetory and Arc to below them. Also Karl didn't move (presumably not as low as Clemency anyway).

This means that Clemency's interactions become especially scum-motivated if I flip town, whilst if I flip scum they're town-motivated. Would you like to explain yourself?

Why do you want me to start giving associations so badly? I think associations are counterproductive on Day 1. I actually think I need a good answer to this, I very visibly dodged your question, had a good reason to do so, and then you pressed me on it.

(If you meta me, you'll see I said ~X in a different game. If you're curious about this you can ask me)

I get to notice discrepancies like the above, mate. Now why are they counter-productive?

I retract town read on Mort and I encourage others to do so as well. Why? It's true that he's been asking a lot of good questions and being active, but he hasn't actually been given a chance to answer many, or slip up. So I asked a few questions, and look what happened!

Game is way too quiet.

Everyone who is not voting needs to either vote or explain why they aren't voting in their next post.

Since you asked:
VOTE: MortFeld
This slot hasn't had any pressure all game.

I'd roll with a Clemency lynch as well. Xnad requires a re-read but I haven't got any time for that rn.

[Deimos27]

Okay, so Clemency's push on me is the kind of push you would see him making as town, if I flip scum? But if I flip town, he's driving for a mislynch and extra scummy.

Look, if I flip town:
Clemency is either town sheeping you, and whom happens to not have the best gut reads.

Or he's scum driving for a mislynch on me.

If I flip scum:
He's town who's gutreads happen to be exceptional. (Who knew? But why isn't he voting me...)

Or he's scum who's not participating in the wagon (because they don't really want their scumpartner lynched) whilst still throwing shade at me, to get dat towncred.


But you seem to know exactly which is the case in both situations, which is the discrepancy. So feel free to explain that.

Also, how is the fact that I haven't been pressured much scummy?

Also, what formed the basis for your town read on me? And, assuming you can cogently explain a scummy discrepancy that I'm not seeing, how does this erase your town read of me?

1. It ain't. That's null, so excuse me while I try to sort you, eh?

2. You're questioning and activity, but who says you're not scum being the town we never had? It would be an excellent opportunity to get universally townread. My earlier read was not thought through. It was flawed.

3. Huh? It didn't. You were null as mentioned above.

What I'm exploring is a Mort + Clem scum team, and I actually really like what I'm seeing in that regard. Therefore I'll swing for the Clemency wagon, because even if Mort is scum he's been doing some great work for town, and mislynching Mort would be super bad as opposed to mislynching Clemency, which is comparatively risk-free.

VOTE: Clemency

[Deimos27]

Okay, so Clemency's push on me is the kind of push you would see him making as town, if I flip scum? But if I flip town, he's driving for a mislynch and extra scummy.

Look, if I flip town:
Clemency is either town sheeping you, and whom happens to not have the best gut reads.

Or he's scum driving for a mislynch on me.

If I flip scum:
He's town who's gutreads happen to be exceptional. (Who knew? But why isn't he voting me...)

Or he's scum who's not participating in the wagon (because they don't really want their scumpartner lynched) whilst still throwing shade at me, to get dat towncred.


But you seem to know exactly which is the case in both situations, which is the discrepancy. So feel free to explain that.

Also, how is the fact that I haven't been pressured much scummy?

Also, what formed the basis for your town read on me? And, assuming you can cogently explain a scummy discrepancy that I'm not seeing, how does this erase your town read of me?

1. It ain't. That's null, so excuse me while I try to sort you, eh?

2. You're questioning and activity, but who says you're not scum being the town we never had? It would be an excellent opportunity to get universally townread. My earlier read was not thought through. It was flawed.

3. Huh? It didn't. You were null as mentioned above.

What I'm exploring is a Mort + Clem scum team, and I actually really like what I'm seeing in that regard. Therefore I'll swing for the Clemency wagon, because even if Mort is scum he's been doing some great work for town, and mislynching Mort would be super bad as opposed to mislynching Clemency, which is comparatively risk-free.

VOTE: Clemency

[Deimos27]

Double post. Wot?

[Deimos27]

I believe Mort asked you a question. I believe you ought to go ahead and answer it. What is your case on me other than gut?

[Deimos27]

Also where did you "buddy hard" with Mort?

[Deimos27]

So algebra claimed PR, but wasn't nk'ed. Mort was the universal townread, but wasn't nk'ed. That's interesting.

[Deimos27]

Nachomamma is town. Because he's a very experienced player, I think the nk would've gone on a townread if he were scum.
Of course algebra didn't fullclaim d1 as doc that would be insane.

[Deimos27]

Nachomamma is town. Because he's a very experienced player, I think the nk would've gone on a townread if he were scum.
Of course algebra didn't fullclaim d1 as doc that would be insane.

but what if he's doing this to trick us

dun dun dun WIFOM

I doubt you should trust the IC, as a conf town because he's the IC, not saying that anyone here is. people tend to gravitate towards the IC because, ya know, he's there, ready to help. Doesn't mean he's town though, he needs to juggle both helping people, appearing town (if scum), and playing towards his win goal.

Naw man. As scum I feel he would be nk'ing

a

townread if not the largest townread. Not to mention the claimed pr wasn't nk'ed. So I'll treat him as town for now.

I softclaimed PR, because I knew there was a possibility of a roleblocker (now confirmed), and scum might think I'm BP so I wouldn't be NKed.

Bullcrap. If there was a RB in that instance, scum would know you were a PR with a 75% of not being the BP. They would have have most likely taken the risk and NK'd you so they would get one of the JK/Doc/Cop off'd.

You did it because you were scared scum and wanted an easy way out of a lynch. I'm surprised no one tried to get you the hard claim, and I would have had I not been inactive. Thanks for more than one line this time. GJ.

Also, what questions am I avoiding?

This is a good post from PP. 671 was frankly bad, let's be real. The reason docs usually want to stay hidden is so they won't be nk'ed or rb'ed, and that's the reason you really should've given. Everyone knows cops shouldn't claim due to their inability to protect themselves.

Let's put it this way: If algebra is doc, he'll be nk'ed tonight anyway, so I don't see a reason not to
VOTE: algebra
for now.

PEdit: Huh, that's L-1 already.

Hammer = scumclaim. Remember to claim intent.

Just putting that out there so scum can't claim ignorance.

[Deimos27]

Cop should claim, doc protect cop (while hidden)

but cop is dead

so....

I mean, why wouldn't scum target doc. He's basically a free target

(wait i need to look at the roles again i'm getting confused with what roles are with which)

Cop can't know that there's a doc in this setup, so Follow the Cop isn't an option.

[Deimos27]

Deimos there actually is a reason, we can lynch scum today

Nobody except scum could possibly know you're town, so this is just bad reasoning.

I'm settled on an algebra lynch, but if Sens can actually provide his reasoning for PP I'd lynch that first, just in case.