Newbie 1724 ~ Endgame

[Thor665]

tl:dr - this entire commentary block is all about introducing myself as the IC, blathering about my duties, and offering a basic idea of some of the strategy of the RVS. If this interests you, please read on (especially if this is your first time playing here) if not, feel free to skip.

Spoiler: IC Intro

===========================================================================================

Greetings,

I am Thor665 and I am the Inexperienced Challenged (IC) player of this group. What this means is first and foremost - I am here to play this game with you in a way that will show you what it is like to play on Mafiascum.net. I am here to win and should be treated as such.

My goals and the rules governing my actions are covered in this handy article: Being a good IC
That article is part of our amazing MafiaWiki System. I *highly* recommend this system as a good way to get your feet wet and to find out what a lot of the common abbreviations mean. There is a lot of play strategy discussed in there too. A lot of players consider that advice almost all outdated now. I don't recommend trying to run verbatim with anything there, but a lot of the basic advice is very good to at least be aware of as it can help you avoid blatant pitfalls as you become familiar with the game play here.

Now, as an IC I am here as a resource for you to ask questions of concerning game theory. I WILL NOT lie about game theory answers and will answer them to the best of my ability. I will also offer you the following quick pieces of advice;

1. Don't self vote. (there are really no points during a Newbie setup where this is a good idea, please avoid it however logical you may think it is)
2. This site frowns on lying if you are a vanilla town role. I strongly advise against lying if you have this role as usually it will only hurt town in the end.
3. It's a game - have fun.

We are now starting what is known as the RVS (random voting stage). We are in a low information period because scum already know who they are, and even have a rough idea of what power roles may or may not be in the game. It is now town's job to root them out. Because the start of the game leaves us with no information to start with generally the way to start is to begin voting and questioning other people to see if you can catch them doing something scummy (scummy actions being acts that a scum player is more likely to do then a town player).

Vote: PkmSilver

[Dewy]

Reverse the words GreenNope, you get NopeGreen.
Nope->Not
Green->Town
Not Town=Scum

VOTE: GreenNope

[Dewy]

@LQ @Green @Silver

No RVS?

[Dewy]

there is seldom more than one vote (but we do have two votes on pkmsilver )

@Green

Thoughts on the Silver wagon?

[Thor665]

there is seldom more than one vote (but we do have two votes on pkmsilver )

@Green

Thoughts on the Silver wagon?

Honestly, I understand why someone would vote for them (RVS), but two is a tad bit suspicious, though it may be a coincidence.

I will clarify for you that it is not a coincidence at all.
Does that affect anything for you?
If so - what?
If not - why not?

[Thor665]

So if you think my actions may well be the work of Mafia - why are you not voting me? Would I not then be the most likely Mafia you see at the moment?

[Thor665]

So why did I need to point out that you should be voting your top scum read to you?

[Thor665]

So why did you vote early then?

[Thor665]

Well, yes, I understand that I was pressuring your stated logic of "I find Thor scummy but am not voting him" I think we both get that.
But if your next set of logic is "I don't like to vote early until I get a feel for the game" then why didn't you say that to me as the reason you didn't vote instead of voting?

[Thor665]

I mean, it's not like I was twisting your arm, but as soon as I pointed out that your logic should have you voting - you voted.
That doesn't jive with the stated concept of not voting for a while until you get a feel for the game - feels like you were trying to appease me/cover up your lack of logic in voting me rather than saying what you actually honestly think.

[Thor665]

So you no longer believe that the best play is to hold off on early votes?

[Dewy]

I agree with LQ's 34. ^
I don't like how quick GN was to change his stance after Thor pressured him.
Also agreeing with the townread on Poetic because she is actively analyzing and scum hunting, even in her first post.


Here is where I am right now.

Townish:
Thor
Poetic
LQ

Scummy:
GN

[Thor665]

So you no longer believe that the best play is to hold off on early votes?

No.

Just to clarify for myself, since this is a double negative, could you phrase your answer in a complete sentence to make sure I understand your stance.

Thor is already taking the lead in this game. I expected this, but didn't expect Thor to be so strong against a single person. Don't know that I like that as it can choke the content people might offer and possibly create a dynamic where no one thinks except Thor and the rest of Town doesn't know what to do so they just follow what seems easy. That said, its still really early in the game.

yeah, how strange that I'm only interacting with the only slot that's posting....yup.
???

Great opening post. Like you for Town because of it. I also was thinking GN was a bit Sus. Not enough for a vote, but do like this analysis.

You actually are currently voting GreenNope - fixing a post doesn't prevent a vote from going through methinks.
Did you really not notice that?

[Thor665]

Just to clarify for everyone - GreenNope has 3 votes on them currently, not 2, unless a vote count after Lickety's posts says otherwise.

[Thor665]

I didn't say it was deliberate - I did say I believed it counted.
There is no rule about votes within failed quotes not counting last time I checked - if you know something I don't feel free to link me to it.

[Thor665]

I believe it is no longer the best idea.

For clarity - since I had to quest for the answer.

Okay, now that we have established that voting early isn't an issue.
Can you explain again why me being intentionally the second vote on someone makes me more likely to be scum?

[Thor665]

@GreenNope

Okay - how does that make them more likely to vote second?

For instance, what if PKMSilver is scum? That would make it less likely for him to be voted by scum, yet more likely to be voted by town - making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.
Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does) which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.
Also, let's say I am scum, and you are town, if someone agrees with you that I am scum for placing a second vote, and votes me - would that then make me town and them scum, forcing you to move your vote? Or does your tell only apply for the very first second vote of the game?

I don't feel like you're actually thinking this through - am I missing something?

@PkmSilver

Do you have any reads currently?

[Dewy]

darnit didnt see the whole post and put my answer in your quotes

@GN
For future reference, you can use preview (it's next to submit) to check if you formatted the post correctly.

[Dewy]

That might not be the case - the vote in LicketyQuickety's post is within a failed quotation. It might count, but it isn't deliberate.

I didn't say it was deliberate - I did say I believed it counted.
There is no rule about votes within failed quotes not counting last time I checked - if you know something I don't feel free to link me to it.

I think we should ask the mod for clarification.

@Mod

Did LQ's vote on GN count?

[Dewy]

@LQ @Silver

@LQ @Green @Silver

No RVS?

If I missed your answer, can you quote the post?

[Thor665]

I think we should ask the mod for clarification.

That literally doesn't matter except for people who wish to vote him, like me, who can't add pressure right this second.
By the time the mod shows up to answer we'll get a vote count which will also answer the question.

[Thor665]

It seems pretty unintuitive to me for the mod to count the obvious accidental vote and then refuse to acknowledge the EBWOP as an unvote, so I really doubt it counts. It's probably not listed in the rules because it's such a random scenario.

It is fine if it is unintuitive to you - that said, i assure you there are many mods on this site who would count that vote.
I like to be careful about my vote - I advocate everyone does the same because it cuts down on derp hammers.

Unvote: PkmSilver
Vote: GreenNope

[Thor665]

Nothing you've said here is wrong, but I'm wondering if you can't think of any other explanations for hesitancy and confusion on the first page of a Newbie game?

As a continuation of this line of thought - is there an issue you foresee with the value call he opted to make?
I feel kind of like you're spending every post defending people, is that coincidence or a planned operation?

[Dewy]

By the time the mod shows up to answer we'll get a vote count which will also answer the question.

I didn't really think that through. :p It was instinctive for me to ask the mod for clarification.

Well, the mod did answer the question with the vote count.

[Dewy]

Nothing you've said here is wrong, but I'm wondering if you can't think of any other explanations for hesitancy and confusion on the first page of a Newbie game?

It's not that he was hesitant or confused, but rather GN was like a chameleon in changing his stance after being pressured. It's like he wanted to blend in.

[Thor665]

I don't think he has particularly towntold. Also, I still think a new player might not be as quick to deny their own reads as town.

What reads did he deny?

@GreenNope

Okay - how does that make them more likely to vote second?

For instance, what if PKMSilver is scum? That would make it less likely for him to be voted by scum, yet more likely to be voted by town - making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.
Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does) which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.
Also, let's say I am scum, and you are town, if someone agrees with you that I am scum for placing a second vote, and votes me - would that then make me town and them scum, forcing you to move your vote? Or does your tell only apply for the very first second vote of the game?

I don't feel like you're actually thinking this through - am I missing something?

@PkmSilver

Do you have any reads currently?

No Town tell about it.. Scum distance each other early, its a pretty common thing. Also, if you are Scum with PKM then there are no more Scum to even vote for them. And lets not forget that your vote on PKM didn't really add any pressure to them at all, but you decided to go after someone else in stead. Don't know that I like you trying to obviously point out your own Town tells. Don't like that at all. Obviously that doesn't matter too much until we get flips, but still.

@LQ - why are you answering a question I asked GreenNope while not actually answering the question I did ask you?
I'll repeat the question to you - Do you have any reads currently?
Please answer both of those.

As to your other thing - there is *nothing* in my post that suggests I'm pointing out my own town tells - where are you getting that conclusion?

[Thor665]

Oh, you're right, I was presuming a sloppy read of the post thinking I had asked up not down, that makes it even weirder that he hopped in to field it.
He can move to the scum pool with Green, especially if Green flips scum.

[Thor665]

He can still field the question about the town reads though, that is pretty blatant misrepping/bad reading.

[Dewy]

@LQ

It looks more like they are trying to subtly discrediting people's points rather than Scum hunting. Dewy is just going along with what looks like it taking ground and looking busy. It looks like they are both trying to get Townie points by not actually Scum hunting.

When I read over the game, I tend to take notes. On GN's post's I made a note, but as I kept reading, you already posted something similar.
I'm scum reading GN because he's to willing to change his beliefs when pressured. I'm not seeing what I'm randomly going along with on that or what points I'm discrediting.

In post 68 you said that GN was to careless to be scum. Can you elaborate on that?

@frog

I am hoping to do something with it.

What were you hoping to do?

@Thor

Oh, you're right, I was presuming a sloppy read of the post thinking I had asked up not down, that makes it even weirder that he hopped in to field it.
He can move to the scum pool with Green, especially if Green flips scum.

Why is that?

[Thor665]

I'm sorry, a misrep? What is this about?

It's about the question I asked you about the accusation you made.

Don't know that I like you trying to obviously point out your own Town tells.

Here's your accusation.

And here's my question;

As to your other thing - there is *nothing* in my post that suggests I'm pointing out my own town tells - where are you getting that conclusion?

Can you answer it now? I don't think I can ask it any clearer.

I'm not answering a question you asked GreenNope; I am noting an observation I made of your post. There is a difference there.

Felt more like a question answer to me, sounds like you're trying to split hairs here.

That would be fine except you fail to see how when you told GN to vote you and then they did and then GN said they usually don't vote people that early that is was a lack of observation just like you saying you didn't see when I pointed out you were pointing out your own Town tells.

Okay, and I admitted to lack of observation immediately and I am having to drag an answer out of him about how his logic process works.
I agree.

I don't see how that makes them the same things at all.
Especially since one was advanced as a scum/town case and the other was a 'oh you answered the wrong question - while being correct about you answering one of the questions, but being wrong about you being asked either of the questions'
SO actually I see those as really different, can you clarify again why they are the same?

I think you're overstating the case here. It's Day 1 in a Newbie, so it to be expected that the IC is prominent in some way or other.

What Thor is doing, independent of whether GreenNope is scum, is educating in RVS and when to vote.

For what it's worth, I don't read GreenNope as scum.

didn't like the bold, didn't like that Thor neither confirmed nor denied that statement.

I also have not confirmed or denied that my username is Thor.
I don't get the point here - I am asking him to explain the logic of a scumtell and to justify lack of RVS vote or presence of it. By definition that can be taken as education as I'm asking him to think about the process.
By definition it is also scumhunting, as I'm asking in order to understand what he's thinking.
Neither of these blatant realities should need to be noted.

Did you really not see either of them?

@Thor

Oh, you're right, I was presuming a sloppy read of the post thinking I had asked up not down, that makes it even weirder that he hopped in to field it.
He can move to the scum pool with Green, especially if Green flips scum.

Why is that?

The logic being he is seeing someone left swinging in the wind, worried that he is looking scummy, and so leaps in to field the questions on the presumption it will prevent his scumbuddy from looking worse.

There is theoretically no town motivation to cut off scumhunting - so unless LQ wants to make the case that what I was doing was not scumhunting, there is no actual justification for his actions.

He has now listed GN as a strong town read, and has claimed he was generically addressing a thought not answering a question, so he is either town who doesn't understand how he's gakking up scumhunting, or scum who is painfully aware of how accurate my raised issue is. Your value call after that. I'm voting GN.

I also thought that Thor was laying an abnormally large number of traps that came from at best a selective reading of what the person they quote had been saying - examples include #37 with the phrase 'did you really not notice that?', where he appeared to imply that LicketyQuickety had deliberately left his potentially accidental vote in place

I didn't imply that, I was pretty much outright stating it.

I'm a little suspicious of Thor because I feel like his baiting is unlikely to catch scum, being more likely to confuse the rest of us and distract from genuinely scummy behaviour, but at the same time he has been open.

If you have a better method for catching scum on Day 1 than identifying lack of internal logic and lynching that player I would be happy to hear about it.

[Dewy]

Just because you take notes does not at all mean that you can't be Scum. What if GN is just too new to know any better? The point wasn't that you were providing the same reasons, but that you were jumping on something I don't personally consider to be terribly AI.

I was scum reading the person who was the most scummy.

Newb Town don't give a flying fuck what they look like - they haven't an inclination that what/how you appear as means anything at all. They are just trying to figure out this bran new game that they prolly don't have much experience playing and I think that is

exactly

what is going on with GN. Newbs are absolutely the easier people to read. I will adamantly disagree with anyone who thinks they are not.

I agree with you on the fact that newbs are the easiest players to read because I have a harder time reading more experienced players.
On the point where you said that newbs don't really care about what they look like, it's not just newbtown that shouldn't care much about their image. Town's job is to scumhunt, not to care about their image. The only people worried about their image is scum.

[Dewy]

@frog

Several things, really; by challenging the wagon I thought I'd see who was on it by genuine conviction and who was just trying to get towncred by adding pressure to an ostensibly scummy slot without contributing anything of their own. On the off chance that GreenNope becomes today's lynch and flips town, a few alternative points here and there prevents the mafia from furthering the line 'they were too scummy to be scum' on Day 2, which would be counter-productive for our understanding of what had happened.

What did you get from challenging the wagon, what where you able to conclude from it?

I also thought that Thor was laying an abnormally large number of traps that came from at best a selective reading of what the person they quote had been saying - examples include #37 with the phrase 'did you really not notice that?', where he appeared to imply that LicketyQuickety had deliberately left his potentially accidental vote in place, and #64, where he attacked LQ for not answering a question he hadn't asked them. By correcting (or defending, if you really want to call it that) I was hoping to see whether Thor would uphold or retract his statement, and also draw some attention to this. I'm a little suspicious of Thor because I feel like his baiting is unlikely to catch scum, being more likely to confuse the rest of us and distract from genuinely scummy behaviour, but at the same time he has been open.

I feel like you're being wishy-washy here. On one hand, you are saying that Thor is scummy in:

I also thought that Thor was laying an abnormally large number of traps that came from at best a selective reading of what the person they quote had been saying - examples include #37 with the phrase 'did you really not notice that?', where he appeared to imply that LicketyQuickety had deliberately left his potentially accidental vote in place, and #64, where he attacked LQ for not answering a question he hadn't asked them. By correcting (or defending, if you really want to call it that) I was hoping to see whether Thor would uphold or retract his statement, and also draw some attention to this. I'm a little suspicious of Thor because I feel like his baiting is unlikely to catch scum, being more likely to confuse the rest of us and distract from genuinely scummy behaviour...

However, on the other hand, you seem to be defending him in:

, but at the same time he has been open.

What is your stance? Are you playing the best of both sides?

[Dewy]

I forgot to include this, but 85 was to LQ.

[Dewy]

What did you get from challenging the wagon, what

where

were you able to conclude from it?

EBWOP (Stands for: edit by way of post. We typically use this because we aren't allowed to edit the post itself, so we make another post to correct the mistake.)

[Thor665]

I agree with you on the fact that newbs are the easiest players to read because I have a harder time reading more experienced players.

I'm of the opposite opinion - it's harder to delineate scum intent in Newbies because there is less game evidence to figure out if they are making something up, or honestly believe a crazy scumtell they're pushing. Also the derp hammers, all the derp hammers.

For clarity's sake I am blocking up conversations by using quotes.

Dear gawd!
As a suggestion, there is an area code;

Code: Select all

[area][/area]

It ends up looking like this;

This is mah area!

Provides separation without looking like quotes and hurting my brain having to chew through them.

making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.

Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does)

which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.

I highlighted the part where you said you were making Town Tells. I said later that This doesn't mean much until after flips as I stated here:

And the fact that I was discussing the theoretical concept of it being a scumtell to vote second, and suggesting that it wasn't because it could equally be argued as a town tell (thus making my point that it wasn't alignment indicative either way) didn't come through?
Like you thought I was legit raising points for me being town that included "evidence" of PkmSilver being scum, and also me being scum?
Like, I feel like there's a specific reason you had to trim down my quote there to make it look like you're talking sense.

I'm not answering a question you asked GreenNope; I am noting an observation I made of your post. There is a difference there.

Felt more like a question answer to me, sounds like you're trying to split hairs here.

Because I am Trying to split hairs. If you are Scum, I am going to have to think outside the box a bit. That means trying to catch you on something you might not expect. What do you mean by "question answer?" That is confusing a Smurf.

To answer the second part first - when I am asking you about answering a question, and you say you're not answering a question, and I say it sounds like a question answer - I think "question answer" translates clearly as...it feels like you were answering a question, specifically the one we were talking about. Sorry if that confused you.

First part - so you're splitting hairs to defend yourself in order to catch me being scum?

Unvote: GreenNope
Vote: LicketyQuickety

I don't buy that, not at all.

Who are you addressing here? Who are you talking to? Are you talking to me or are you talking to everyone else and telling them I am Scum? I am not Scum, I am Town.

I was talking to you and to everyone - you in specific because I was responding to you, and everyone because everyone reads everything we type. It's a public forum game.

You did not admit to lack of understanding right away. You said I was missrepping you first thing, then covered it up with acting like you had no idea what I was talking about. Then asked me to explain where I said you said you were pointing out your own Town tells.

Okay, you are shifting around a lot here.
My understanding is you cited me for misunderstanding that you didn't answer a question I hadn't asked you - which Frogger pointed out and I admitted to right away.
I will agree that I didn't admit to being wrong about the misrep right away, because I didn't understand how you got there, and now that you have just provided an answer I find it a slightly scummy one.

You saying GN should vote you because they Scum read you, then you questioning GN when they voted you the next post is the same Smurfing thing because its confusing as Smurf to follow only much less confusing that all this Smurf.

You are answering a valid question with rage.
If you are honestly this peeved off - why? I'm actively *trying* to be clear to you in everything I say and do. I think all the misunderstandings are stemming from you and your responses, and think I am actively trying to avoid you being able to call anything confusing.
If this is fake rage, I don't accept it as showing any logic from you, and am interpreting it as trying to cover up awareness of your logic being shaky.
I currently favor the second option, because I don't think I'm being confusing. But if something is confusing - maybe ask to clear it up?

I'm not answering a question you asked GreenNope; I am noting an observation I made of your post. There is a difference there.

I strongly disagree.
There was a question.
You addressed it to deflect/weaken it - in effect, precluding GN's need to answer it.

That is entirely missing the point. You threw accusations in GN face and then voted them. So you were Scum hunting them and Scum reading them at the same time. We call that tunneling where I come from. Why is GN Scum? What reactions did they give you that tell you that? You said you were looking for them to share their thought process.. What info did you gather from them sharing their thought process?

So your presumption is that when I placed the second vote on them I was already scum reading them when their entire iso was saying "hey everyone!"
I don't think that's true, and it's assuredly not a tunnel.
I am not sure as to my full response to their thought process because I'm still asking them questions about it and haven't seen them answer yet - so it's an ongoing process. If I had to guess at their alignment I would tend to bounce it to the scum side, because I vaguely dislike non-logical conclusions. But that's including a presumption on my part that they won't have a valid answer.

If i was worried about what I looked like I would definitely not be engaging this far down the rabbit hole of clusterSmurf logic.

Well, you actually are actively complaining that I'm forcing you to go down the hole - so, clearly you *don't* wish to be here.
Also, your only other option, as scum, would be to act like I'm not here, which I assure you would end up making you look worse.
Finally, going hard emotion response in your reply tends to cloud up your answers and feels defensive to me.

My issue isn't with the method, it's with the way you're going about putting it into practice. Taking the example of LicketyQuickety's misquote, I can't see what you were hoping to gain from that besides the opportunity for casting an unwarranted aspersion on a slot.

I wanted full awareness in the thread that I believed a vote had been placed that people may not have presumed had been placed.
I also wanted to know his reaction in thinking he had messed up the quote but not seeking to clarify an unvote just in case.

I am concerned that you are trying to trip people up on things which are in no way alignment-indicative, and then using confusion or inconsistency as the pretext for scumreading or voting them.

That would be a cruel way to describe my Day 1 scumhunting - so it is exactly what I'm doing, though I would describe it as "asking people multiple questions about their logic being used in the game in order to try to spot who is making unsanctioned leaps of logic on the presumption that scum are more likely to make an action on a strategic basis rather than actually thinking out their actions"
I can show many games (really all of them) to show this is how I scumhunt, and also show that I actively consider there to be a difference between bad logic and no logic and tend to vote accordingly.

If you had picked people up over inconsistency surrounding votes and reads, we wouldn't be having this discussion; pressure over a lack of knowledge on how to play on the site, formatting mistakes, and not answering questions to which the person wasn't directed deserves being called out.

I actively disagree - the value of what can or cannot be called out shifts througout the game, no more so than Day 1, and no more so then within the first days of the game. If someone isn't willing to call people out over small things, then it is impossible to start calling people out over reads - because otherwise reads don't exist.
I now have reads that can be assessed - because I am calling out small things.
Most players do not, because they have not - that makes my playstyle, to my mind, provably superior because I'm quickening the pace to the part of the game town can actually start using to scumhunt functionally.

Why do you disagree?

I'm null-leaning-scum on Thor currently. My uncertainty stems from him conceding more than I think scum would concede, but this can lead into WIFOM. I have suspicions, but I need longer to confirm them. Luckily, it appears the game is going in a direction that will enable precisely that.

I can assure you that is a poor value call on me - my playstyle as scum is (naturally) specifically designed to mirror how I play as town. As such, my town self argues logic on Day 1. Logic tends to be a black/white issue. When you point out something that is provably wrong, I'll naturally concede it because arguing provably wrong things is both dumb as well as being scummy - and I don't like to think of myself as dumb.

My personal advice for reading me is you need to get me deeper into the game for a legit read.
Some people advocate just a quick lynch for yucks.
Others go with the Thor read method.

Take your pick.
But if I wouldn't concede things as scum, I would be required to likewise never concede things as town, and despite some of my reputation, I don't actually even remotely claim to have all the answers or to be unfallible (oh for that to be true)

Can you show me any examples of concessions working as a scumtell for you?
Seems like a playstyle tell and never alignment indicative, but you appear to buy into it as a thing even while pointing out to me issues that you think I'm picking at alignment neutral issues. Just want to see you support your belief.

[Thor665]

Seriously, this is becoming an argument between Dewy, Lickety and Thor, rather than Thor and I.

If you'd like to make it more about you again, you could answer my last question to you about the logic of your tell on me being a scumtell.

[Thor665]

@GreenNope

Okay - how does that make them more likely to vote second?

For instance, what if PKMSilver is scum? That would make it less likely for him to be voted by scum, yet more likely to be voted by town - making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.
Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does) which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.
Also, let's say I am scum, and you are town, if someone agrees with you that I am scum for placing a second vote, and votes me - would that then make me town and them scum, forcing you to move your vote? Or does your tell only apply for the very first second vote of the game?

I don't feel like you're actually thinking this through - am I missing something?

[Dewy]

@LQ

You seem to have meta in your responses to Thor to get him to realize that you are town. However, I don't think meta should be the only way to read someone, but because people can change their meta.

[Thor665]

Didn't come across like you were saying there was an equal chance of being either Town or Scum, no.

That's not what I said.

Nope, didn't see you provide any evidence for why PKM was Scum. I threw out a possibility. You think that's Scummy? You're wrong, but OK.

I will agree that I provided just as much evidence for Pkm to be scum in that quote as I did for me to be town.
Doesn't change that you are straw grasping to present that as Thor presenting a town case on himself for you to call questionable.

Go back and look at how you attacking me started.. might shed some light on the subject. In other words, I don't feel like I have been defending myself at all.

You have been defending yourself because I've been attacking you.
I'm not calling that scummy.
I *am* calling the concept that you're scumhunting me by defending yourself via hair split arguments to be scummy, however.

Why not? Why don't you buy it? I can tell you right now, you are making the same mistake all super experienced players make when they are not reading me correctly (given you are Town): you are assuming you know the way I play and what I would do as Scum and think I am doing what you expect me to do as Scum. Go 'head, read through a couple of my games. Pretty sure you should be able to figure out you have me wrong.

I know that what you are presenting makes no sense, and I am presuming that you, as town, make some sense.
If you play this way as town, then, worst case, I'm trying to lynch a player who doesn't use any logic in their reads.
But I think that's less likely than you being flailscum.

Do you have any games showing you doing this, or something like it, as town?
I'd be happy to look at them.
If your answer is "all of them" then I refer you to my concept above.

Yeah, only problem with that is that it is correct play theory wise is to talk more to the people who you are trying to convince the person you should be talking to is Scum and I believe you were doing this. I also think you hadn't up until that point indicated that you thought I was a Scum read previously to that.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here - but I will agree with you that I was presenting issues I had with your slot/suspicions of you being scum to everyone else in the expectation/hope they would agree with me or explain your actions as town.
I will agree that I'm trying to get you lynched.
I will agree that up until I voted you I did not explicitly say you were a scum read.

Why is it Scummy? Better yet, why is it Scummy for ME to do that?

For the reasons I stated - I believed you were misrepresenting my position in order to attack me, when it seems quite obvious that I was not doing what you were saying I was doing.
I think that is scummy for anyone to do - if it is your town meta, then you should stop doing it immediately.
I note that you aren't arguing that you didn't do it at this point, you're arguing that you do it as town.
Please never do that.

I wouldn't call it rage, far from it actually. Frustration hence the colorful language, yes. Rage? No.

Then my scum read holds, please refrain from cursing at me if you're not angry at me, thanks!

You strongly disagree doesn't sound like black and white logic to me.. It sounds more like a strong opinion.

You are presenting an opinion that noting an observation is not an answer.
I am noting disagreement and providing reasoning to support my opinion and why I find your answer deflective, and not one I buy.
Since we are each offering opinions, I will agree that it is not a black/white value call - I never said it was.
I did say I had made a value call, and what it was.

I can go back and look at the quote and then my answer and give you my interpretation of things since you're not doing a great job of interpreting and questioning my posts so far. Want me to do that?

Sure.

No, how does me commenting on something prevent GN from answering a question that in all likelihood hadn't been intruded in the first place?

Well...so far he hasn't answered it, though I will agree that speaks more on him than you.
I will agree it doesn't bar him from answering it for all time.
That said - I think it's pretty clear that it is deflective and defensive for him to have someone else field the question.

I haven't said hardly a word on your vote on PKM in any kind of sound way. I don't have a stance on that. I threw out a possibility to see if things could get moving. I'd rather try to get answers out of the IC sooner rather than later. I'm not as concerned about your vote on PKM as much as I am on GN. I think the vote on GN is going to be most telling when GN or yourself flips. In a way I can't blame you for voting me since I know my meta, but I assure you I am not doing anything I wouldn't normally do as Town. I am prepared to link games if need be, but tbh I think you would prolly want to flip me anyways day one since you prolly would rather MY meta not be in the game all game long.

So...basically you agree with me that it is beneficial for town to lynch you today?
Because that's what I'm getting here.

[Thor665]

What should have been at the end of that post: What's the benefit of voting me as your scum read over your other Scum read?

I feel more confident about you flipping scum.

You wont get much from pressure on me, either you lynch me or you don't, I don't cave, even as Scum.

I would submit that as both alignments you are playing it wrong if this is your reaction.
Town should want to lynch scum - and if you are town you know this for a fact, so a lynch of you is not a good play for town.
If you are scum it strongly benefits your team for you to make it deeper into the game even if you are just a goon, as it helps deflect town PR abilities to weaken the team and secure a town win. So, again, you should strive not to be lynched.

[Dewy]

@Poetic

I think that was a "FYPOV" scenario and not Lickety asking to be lynched. I don't really SR either of you, but I feel like your tunnel-vision is a possible tactic as scum and I'd like to hear elaboration on Lickety's alleged townread on you(?).

I had a hard time digesting the wall posts, but I'm pretty sure that LQ and Thor are scum reading each other?

[Thor665]

I made it very clear at the beginning that I was talking about a player you read as

town

, taking the distinction from your reads list, not one you had down as a town

lean

, and from all your subsequent remarks it is clear that you interpreted it in the same way. Giving you the benefit of the doubt for a second, your townlean was GreenNope, whose last post was #44, well before this discussion of how to play was brought up, whereas the bulk of Impoetic's posts came after that point (and these must have informed your read on her, right?). It is still inconceivable you would not be able to recall who I was talking about, unless your reads were not genuine.

I'm buying into this case.

I'd like to hear elaboration on Lickety's alleged townread on you(?).

He either null reads me or scum reads me as far as I'm aware - his last official word was null, but then he indicated he thought I was being more scummy.

[Dewy]

@Poetic

VOTE: Hyped

Where's the naked vote coming from? Are you scumreading Hyped?

[Dewy]

@Poetic

I'm hyped for season 2 of mr robot, so this guy's the guiser.

This it a RVS vote?

...I didn't know they had posted.

They haven't posted?

[Thor665]

Didn't come across like you were saying there was an equal chance of being either Town or Scum, no.

That's not what I said.

Actually, that is exactly what you were implying.

Nope, didn't see you provide any evidence for why PKM was Scum. I threw out a possibility. You think that's Scummy? You're wrong, but OK.

I will agree that I provided just as much evidence for Pkm to be scum in that quote as I did for me to be town.
Doesn't change that you are straw grasping to present that as Thor presenting a town case on himself for you to call questionable.

That quote appears to support my stance that I was not saying there was an equal chance of being town or scum.
It does appear to suggest that I wasn't using it as an alignment tell because I don't think it was an alignment tell.

That whole thing about you pointing out your own town tells would be a blip if you weren't so slow in catching what I was saying the first 5 times.

I caught what you were saying the first time.
WHat I pointed out was there was no evidence to support your stance.
You continue to not provide any.
I mean, yeah, you're showing me saying the words "town" and "scum" and in there, amongst other names, I also mention my own.
But that's kind of like saying that if I said "wood and wind instruments fire me up" is the same as me describing ingredients to make a campfire.
Yeah, words were used...but...

And why are you attacking me? Could it be because of a whole misunderstanding about what I said about you pointing out your town tells?

Amongst other things, but I will agree that was the initial point I attacked over - I characterized it as a misrep and have asked you to show me where I'm wrong while I advanced my theory that it was an intentional misrep after seeing your inability to do so.

So now you

say

you think I am flailing. How? Is this really what flailing looks like? Naw, you're making smurf up.

I think flailing looks like someone trying to discuss anything except the points they're being called scummy over. They do this with a number of tools including AtE, deflection, and intentional misunderstanding.
I think you fit the bill quite nicely.
If you prefer we can call it aardvarkingscum - but that is what I mean by flailscum.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=61893

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=63704

http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthrea ... ia-Wars-II Rurouni Kenshin, sorry this one is a hydra and an off site game but over 90% of the posts are by me.

So in those I am going to find misreps as town - or something else?

post 83 is where you were preaching that I was Scum, and by your own account this was before you were Scum reading me as you said you weren't Scum reading me until the post that you voted me.

Yes. And?

Let me tell you how I see it. I see a very competent IC saying that they are doing Town tells within the first very few pages. In what world does an IC who has been playing this game for at least 7 years needs to make an argument that they are Town telling to someone who has prolly played <5 games total? THAT is what I am looking at.

And yet you still are unable to note that what I was actually discussing was how the presented case made no sense as far as I could see, and explicitly asking them to explain their case.

Like why would a player who is as experienced as yourself need to every mention that they are doing Town tells by page 3?

I don't think I would. Well...I suppose someone could be crazy dense and call a Mod posted IC note a scumtell or something, but beyond that, no.

Let me make this clear: I am simply a player who 90-99% of players don't understand at all. Granted, there are always a few people wherever I go who do actually understand me, but they are few and far in between. I cannot help this, I am just wired differently than other people.

Weren't you accusing me of intentionally misunderstanding you?
These two things do not appear to line up.
Clarify?

First off, I haven't once referred to you as a cuss word.

I know - that's why I said 'cursing at me' as opposed to 'don't call me a Smurf-face'.

Secondly, You try being lynchbait and getting lynched before day 3 in 80% of the games you play and see how you handle is when yet another Super star Mafia player thinks its better that your dead even if you are Town. Yeah, I have every reason to be upset actually.

I never called myself a Super Star - so I feel like you are either faking this, or are getting mad at me for reasons that are more internal.
If you don't like being lynchbait - I would advise that you change your playstyle rather then repeatedly assure me it's good, and that I'm intentionally misunderstanding you on one hand, while also admitting you are massively scumread and constantly misunderstood on the other.

yeah, I don't see anything in what I said that would interfere from GN answering what you were asking her. Sorry to break this to you, but just because you ask someone a question doesn't at all mean that that quote is off limits from other people commenting on it.

Other than it being bad town play, good scum play, and hurting scumhunting, I agree.

Let me let you in on a secret: when I play as Town, I am completely unhindered to explore whatever I feel I think I can get something on. As Scum, I don't think I contradict myself as much because I have an agenda to work and don't need to actually Scum hunt, I just have to make it look like I am Scum hunting.

Okay.
I didn't call you scummy for contradicting yourself.
I called you scummy for claiming a scumhunting plan that makes no sense.

Sorry this took so long to respond to, I haven't slept in over 27 hours.

Dear gawd - go to bed, that is unhealthy!

[Thor665]

@LQ - as I'm looking over your meta I note that you have a number of recently completed games, why did you only link me stuff from back in the day?

[Thor665]

In the meantime, Thor, who do you think Lick's partner might be? Because I'm not sure I like this whole tunnel thing. I get that town can have differing mindsets, but I still think it's potential scum tactic to spend the whole of day 1 tunneling fruitlessly like that so they don't have to make opinions elsewere -- primarily due to something someone said in my first game here.

First off I would like to take a moment to assess the "tunnel" line and to point out that it is awfully silly.
I have moved my vote amongst three different players.
I have only been voting LQ for less than a day.
It is premature, and also pretty silly, to call that a tunnel. It is not a tunnel at all. I, and others, are allowed to express a scumread without it being a tunnel. You can express a scumread for days without it being a tunnel. The only way it becomes a tunnel is if you;
1. Ignore new information.
2. Ignore other cases.
You also, assuredly, don't have the ability to show that I'm not giving opinions on others, indeed, LQ accussed me of tunneling on GreenNope, I do believe. Here's a hint, if a tunnel shifts, especially if it does so repeatedly - it is called 'focus'.

If you can explain how I am even remotely doing a tunnel, I will apologize to you, the rest of the game, and to LQ, and will immediately sheep you for the next 48 hours.

I don't know why I hear the tunnel line so much - it is weird.

To your other question, I have already expressed a thought that GreenNope and LQ make sense as potential scumbuddies.
I haven't seen enough interaction between LQ and anyone else to draw other conclusions.
DO you see anything I'm missing?

[Dewy]

@Poetic

Yes, it was RVS. This isn't, though:

VOTE: Dewy

Why isn't it? What is your reasoning behind voting me?

@LQ

Respond to my 104 and 85 please.

[Thor665]

Man, this is embarrassing. I guess I'll definitely be trying to reread some tonight. It just seems like a bunch of small thing you guys are getting on each others' cases about, from what I've seen.

I would agree, welcome to Day 1 scumhunting.

What do you think of Dewy? it seems like everyone but him has been considered despite his posts all being fairly low-key.

I soft town read him. He's probably in my top two current town reads.

@LQ - as I'm looking over your meta I note that you have a number of recently completed games, why did you only link me stuff from back in the day?

This: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... =66845this is my most recent completed game on this site and it is a Scum game. I am in 2 other games on this site but both are ongoing.

In case that is enough:

http://personalitycafe.com/mafia/870714 ... n-win.html is my most recent completed game

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/5 ... QuickTwist my ISO of my second most recent completed game

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/5 ... QuickTwist my ISO of my third most recent completed game

Why are you actively avoiding talking to me about your Micro games - do you consider them not to count for some reason?

[Dewy]

@Poetic

I guess the GreenNope/Lick team makes sense, but more because Lickety would turn on Green as maf with GN town here than anything else.

I'm not sure I'm following your reasoning. Why does a GN+LQ scum team make sense?

Also, I'm a she.

Answer to 122 please.

[Dewy]

@Thor

What do you think of Dewy? it seems like everyone but him has been considered despite his posts all being fairly low-key.

I soft town read him. He's probably in my top two current town reads.

Why?

Also, I'm a she.

[Dewy]

@Poetic

I don't think your posts have been furthering discussion, for the most part.

How so? Examples?

Your reads are fairly agreeable and blend in

I disagree with you on this one. My reads are based on how I'm sorting people, not other people are sorting other people.

your questions don't seem like they lead anywhere.

This is also false. My questions are helping me to sort people.



Right now, I am at:

Townish:
Impoetic
Thor
LQ
frog

Scummy:
GN

Not enough info/has not posted:
Silver
Liz
Hyped

[Dewy]

@LQ

We have surprisingly little info to work with at this stage of the game. We should have twice this amount of posts.

Reads:

Town
Impoetic
GreenNope
Town lean
Dewy
Null
Lis
Hyped
Null/Scum
PKM
Scum lean
frog/Thor

Scum

In 68, you read me as scum-lean. How did that change to town-lean?

[Dewy]

OK, so time to put my nuts on the table.

VOTE: PkmSilver

?

[Dewy]

Town
Thor/Frog
Town Lean
LicketyQuickety
Null
Hyped/Lis/PKM
Null/Scum
GreenNope/Dewy

Scum
Impoetic

In short: my reads list is the literal antithesis of yours.

Scum-slip?
VOTE: Impoetic

[Thor665]

@Thor

What do you think of Dewy? it seems like everyone but him has been considered despite his posts all being fairly low-key.

I soft town read him. He's probably in my top two current town reads.

Why?

Also, I'm a she.

Sorry, I'm very bad about personal pronouns - I'll probably keep messing that up.

I don't really see the point of explaining why I townread you, but it's specifically Post #15 and #35.
Why, do you think people should be scum reading you?

[Thor665]

Link it or it didn't happen, Thor.

...link what, the micro games?
Okay here is one;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=64506

This is weird.
You are being weird - and now I really want an answer.

[Thor665]

If you've read everything, do you have any opinions on it?

[Thor665]

I'm not sure I can accept this being a purely playstyle issue. If you could link me a game or two (preferably with the same or similar setup) where you lay the sorts of earlygame traps I'm having a problem with as town, then that would be a help.

Since I don't think I'm laying any traps at all - how about we just go with "look at any of my games".
If it's a playstyle issue then you'll see it.
If not, then you ought to at least explain the traps beyond "traps!" and maybe we can then discuss how it is or isn't scummy.
But I'm guessing I do it consistently (partly because I've had this exact conversation before in multiple games) - because this is how I play, so; http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... &sr=topics
Go to.

I think the things you were calling people out over were excessively small. Nine players (well, seven until recently) talking and interacting will inevitably produce significant events and meanings without the need for picking up on every little insignificant thing

I disagree.
Just as an example - if we take away things about me and my stances we are left with people going 'ooooh!' over a pretty obvious joke (and now dropping all reads associated with it) and we have your case on LQ which no one (not even him) besides me has commented on.
Now, maybe this is because I'm hyper aggressive.
But I have to say, my personal belief is if I wasn't making noise, we'd all be sitting around doing spit all.
If you look at any game on this site I think the trend becomes apparent.

The difficulty I have with your approach is that it allows scum (even if you are not scum) to sow confusion and, yes, to distract over potentially more significant parts of the game.

Bull-hooey.
If some small things confuse and distract from big things then that is the fault of all of the players, not of people discussing small things.

Briefly, I thought he was making rather a lot out of confused players (and deliberately trying to confuse them)

I feel I have been actively bending over *not* to cause confusion.
Can you show any point where it looks like I'm trying to confuse someone?

not sure what thor's reads are as of now, so that's a thing.

Why and how is that a thing?
I've offered multiple reads.

[Thor665]

Because I don't want to read through your wall wars every time I want to see what you think of someone.
If you could please present a condensed read list that I can refer back to

clearly

when I see you contradicting yourself.

I don't do reads walls because I think they're silly.

I've called LQ and GN scum.
Currently I am voting LQ (I would have thought at least that read might have magically carried if you'd read anything I had posted)
I was asked about Dewy and called her town only a page or so ago.

If you aren't reading my posts because they're long, how are you going to ever get a legit read of me?

That game happened in December.. thought you wanted more recent games then that. If you want to go back that far, well then here are some more:

Why did you act like I was lying when I asked about them?

Also, thus far with what I've read (albeit none of that SC2 forum because the navigation is the pits) I've seen you be sloppy, but I haven't seen misreps particularly, and I've also seen you repeatedly claim you strive for excellence in your town game while in this game you're repeatedly downplaying yourself and claiming defense because 'lol, I'mma wacky and different' which feels like a markedly different tack.
Am I misreading you?

[Thor665]

So you did read my posts but didn't recall that I scumread LQ?

[Thor665]

I am going to admit now, that I won't even be looking at the chart - so, I guess just take my explicit reads.

[Thor665]

You sure aren't a robot because if you were one you'd have been among the people think I scumread myself xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

alright done being difficult. I think that was Zyf townslipping rather than scum!zyf picking something stupid to push on. Scum would see it for what it was, and probably wouldn't think it worth pushing on since it's easily confirmable as such; if anything, zyf would have to have been intentionally faking a townslip, but occam's razor and idk that's just how i see it. confbias=me

I don't dislike a Zyf townread, though I am there more for meta reasons and have my own personal twings - but if you think that reaction makes Zyf look like town what makes that slot look more town in their reaction than the Dewy slot?

[Thor665]

ebwop @thor-
What meta?

Due to site rules, [Banned due to Ongoing]

For the record, since it's not a strong read, and since no one is selling you as scum, I actually see no particular value in the disucssion if and when it becomes allowable,

I don't think it's bad, odd, or abnormal of me to create a false read like that, but I do think it's unfortunate that I retracted it so quickly and regret that a bit

I think fake reads need to be handled pretty carefully, myself, and generally don't serve much purpose.
The only time I've seen them make sense is when they are retracted within about 48 hours of happening, in the same phase - or are done near mylo/lylo to try to game scum.
As a general bit of advice, be cautious about doing these. At the end of the day, reads are supposed to be truthful in order to help you express yourself to town - and also scum are lying about reads, and town is theoretically looking to lynch people who are lying about reads. Therefore, though fake reads can have town purpose, they also can cause people to react negatively because you're playing the way scum plays.

[Thor665]

"Calling the team" and your current overcompensation (better?? it may not be true, sure, but hopefully this term raises no objections as a possible interpretation) for your previous slot being a target (reasonable as town, but read as scum that got a burst of adrenaline to me at first -- not as much now that I reconsider) put trivium somewhere near null to me RN.

i have no idea what this post refers to
also who's trivium

$5 says she's mixing up games again.

[Thor665]

But thor how the heck does that apply
you know what I mean

[Ongoing]

[Thor665]

Honestly, I think Zyf is right.

You're claiming scum with Lickety? I think I'll pull a Zif/Dewy and VOTE: GreenNope

As a bit of advice - this mod doesn't have it as an issue, but a lot of mods do, you may want to get in the habit of always having your votes be on separate lines as opposed to at the end of a sentence.

@GreenNope

@GreenNope

Okay - how does that make them more likely to vote second?

For instance, what if PKMSilver is scum? That would make it less likely for him to be voted by scum, yet more likely to be voted by town - making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.
Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does) which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.
Also, let's say I am scum, and you are town, if someone agrees with you that I am scum for placing a second vote, and votes me - would that then make me town and them scum, forcing you to move your vote? Or does your tell only apply for the very first second vote of the game?

I don't feel like you're actually thinking this through - am I missing something?

This will be the third time I've asked - if you're intentionally not answering could you just say that and spare me the constant repetition?

[Thor665]

Yeah, and its not a misrep. IDK about you but I sure as hell am not as quick to say someone is misrepping me.

Yes it was and is a misrep, and I don't see what your chosen timeline to note them has to do with anything.

IDK what you are talking about.. I've addressed everything you have thrown at me. I think YOU are the one intentionally misunderstanding, honestly.

Addressing is not the same as answering.
The misunderstanding call on me is an empty and unsupported one.

I didn't Smurfing misrep you, my god. I had a perspective on something that you failed to recognise at first and are still trying to say you noticed it right off the bat. If you did notice it right away and you are town we would not be having this conversation. But to answer your question, yes, other people have thought I was misrepping them when I wasn't. and since when was your main point that I was misrepping you?

Since when has the misrep not been a point? I will agree my main point is the 'scumhunt via defense' point, but I've always had the misrep as an issue.
You seem aware that I called you out on it. Don't know why this is a shock to you.

It means you were trying to get people to think I was Scum before you were Scum reading me. Do you have rocks in your head or something? Its like you don't understand anything I say.

No, I understand what you're saying, I'm asking why it matters. I don't think it does. You act like it does - why?

Because I think that is besides the point.

Not when you are claiming I was trying to point out that I was town - then it is very much to my point, and yours.

But that is exactly what you were doing though.

I agree that's what you're claiming I did.
I think you will agree I am calling that a misrep.
Clearly we disagree on reality - I think analysis of the post strongly supports my case, and have asked you to support yours and found you unable to do so (while also complaining that you didn't misrep me, and also complaining that I keep bringing it up - even though you can't actually justify how I was 'calling myself town' in a scummy way - and can't even honestly show that I was claling myself town short of crimping the quote and acting like everything I said before and after it had no bearing on my intent.

It stems from me having no idea why I am so misunderstood as a player. Like I am in disbelief that someone could be so bad at understanding me. Naturally I think some people are faking it. But then another side of me thinks that it is prolly just me.

If more than three people misunderstand you - then it is likely you.
The fact that you claim this happens all the time - yeah, it's you, that's just common sense.

This doesn't justify the play switch I'm talking about, I haven't seen much of this complaining 'woe is me' style in other games.
Do you agree or disagree with that assessment?
If you agree - why are you different today?
If you disagree - what evidence do you have to supplant my statement?

I can't help that I am misunderstood by so many people

Actually, yes, yes you can.

You are basically saying that if you ask someone a question, that anyone commenting on what you said before that person answers is off limits, and I greatly disagree with that.

Why wouldn't you want to allow the scumhunting to go through prior to leaping in and getting in the way of it?

Its the only way I know how to Scum hunt when I can barely respond to everything you throw at me. and that is not your actual reason iirc. Its either this or because you think I am misrepping you. So which is it?

It is the former - which is why I cited it when I voted you.
This is clearly not the only way you know how to scumhunt because you haven't done it in any of the games I've looked over so far - why are you lying to me when you know I'm reading your other games?

[Dewy]

Sorry, didn't have time today. I'll catch up tomorrow.

[Thor665]

So how exactly is that a misrep?

I have explicitly described the misrep - you even, functionally, expressed awareness of it.

1. You appear to grasp that what I was doing was discussing theory.
2. What LQ accused me of - was making a town case on myself.

That is the misrep.

Also I can't follow this argument. at all. ;___;

It's a pretty straight forward argument if you cut out the emotions LQ is tossing.

I dinged him for misrepping me.
I called him scummy because he claimed that he started splitting hairs in defense of himself in order to scumhunt me (and, I'll note - has produced zero reads from doing so)

He claims he didn't misrep me because *Thor said the word town and his own name thus suggesting wanting to connect them!* - serious, that's what he has claimed most recently.
He has defended his splitting hairs thing by claiming he does that elsewhere - and I've claimed I have found no evidence of that in looking over his games and asked him to maybe show me one instance - he has not managed that.

Also, as a tertiary, late thing, I have claimed that his meta here does not match up with his town meta in other games, and is much more AtE loaded here than elsewhere.

That's the argument in a nutshell.
Do you follow it now?

i'm gonna have to agree with lickety here.

What parts do you agree with him on?

[Thor665]

So you think its a misrep when I say you are pointing out that you are Town telling... when you are in fact doing that? The fact that that was not your point does not hold any bearing whether you were doing it or not.

Yes it does.

How about this: why is it a misrep? I'm not sure I understand that. Feel free to be as detailed with this as possible.

When the entire conversation was 'here is why the tell you are using isn't an alignment tell and here are examples to show it's not a valid alignment tell' and you come back with 'Thor is arguing it's a valid alignment tell that shows him as town' that is the definition of twisting my words and claiming I'm saying the opposite of what I'm saying.

I've said this to you many times before - you keep twisting it however to "hey, words that taken out of context say what I say they say!"
Which is pure misrep gak.

I will admit that me saying I am scum hunting by you pressuring me was not a smart move, but it also doesn't make me scum.

Fascinating - what does it make you?
Because I'm pretty certain it doesn't make you town.
Because I'm pretty sure that's a clear lie.

Rundown of events:
you try to convince people I am Scum.
We have a back and forth
You Scum read me.

IDK about you but that looks a little backwards to me. You should be trying to convince people I'm Scum AFTER you scum read me, not before.

It should look like this:

We have a back and forth
You Scum read me and try to convince people I am Scum.

But that's not what happened.

If you change "convince people you're scum" to "present evidence that I consider potential scum activity for consideration" then, oddly, the whole conversation magically makes perfect sense.
Strange that.

if you haven't see me talk about the fact that I have a Scummy meta in other games then you clearly are not looking hard enough or at the right games. The reality is, I am getting more and more fed up with being lynchbait so I am talking about it more now.

And I am different today because I was previously really sleep deprived and am not not sleep deprived.

By today I meant this game, here, today, as opposed to past games.
You also didn't address my point - let's try this again.

I do not find any "woe is me and my scummy play" play in your other town games.
I do find it here.
Why?

Because what I am looking at is a very experienced player pressure a newb and Scum reading them based on things that are not AI for newbs. It doesn't interfere with scum hunting as that person can still answer if I don't actually answer any question directed to that player, which I didn't.

SO you're saying I'm not allowed to pressure newbs in this game?
That would make it hard for me to do much, wouldn't it.
SO, really we get something that doesn't matter (relative experience) and something that is debatable (whether it was alignment telling) and a lack of awareness that answering other people's questions for them gaks with scumhunting.
Okay - good luck in other games when you do this and get called scummy for it.
Learn to stop doing it eventually.

I am not lying. I haven't been in this situation where someone was relentlessly pressuring me with wall post for quite a while - you are not looking at the right games.

You were kinda lying when you acted like I needed to link Micros you had played in to prove they existed.
You should have fully known they existed - so it was a weird response.

Here is a game where the same thing happened. Its not exactly the same, but it should be clear that there was a player who was Scum reading me because they didn't understand me. I didn't link this game before because its so old, but its still basically the same thing.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=61890

[/quote]
To spare me some time, which was the player scumreading you whose interactions are similar - I'm starting to lose interest in full data mining your games.

[Thor665]

So you think its a misrep when I say you are pointing out that you are Town telling... when you are in fact doing that? The fact that that was not your point does not hold any bearing whether you were doing it or not.

Yes it does.

For anyone who needs a quick bit of awareness as to where the misrep argument currently stands.

LQ has apparently come to an understanding that what he said I was doing was not the point I was making.
Meaning he is aware I was talking generic theory.
So, as stands, he must be suggesting that - by me talking generic theory I was hoping to subconsciously suggest that I was town.
This idea will totally ignore that in the same generic theory conversation I also presented thoughts wherein I was scum.
So, apparently while trying to present that I was town, I also subconsciously presented that I was scum at the same time...for...reasons...?

This is why it is a misrep.
This is why he is going crazy trying to twist up his answers - because he knows he is wrong.

[Thor665]

Oh. I get it now.
Your problem is he takes an extra leap of logic.
Ok, I see your point now.

Rephrase the middle point to "Rides a flaming motorcycle over a shoddy ramp facing the Grand Canyon of logic flaws" and, yeah, you're at my point.

I still don't agree that those tells are AI in any regard because WIFOM.
I think what lickety's saying is that the only reason you'd mention those tells is because you use them, which are logically just wrong, meaning that you're using BS to present why you're town.

1. I was presenting the arguement that GN's tell was not a good tell because it is impossible to assign logical alignment through his tell, because there are too many to consider - so...I agree with you, and never said otherwise.
2. I will agree that is sort of what he's saying - except that would require me to be saying things I never said nor implied, and when asked about said that I never said nor implied them (and also requires ignoring that by that logic I was calling myself scum).

So, no, I'm still not okay with his reaction.
Why do you keep feeling like it makes sense?
Am I crazy to find his reaction nonsensical? You appear to be agreeing with it - it makes sense to you?

Briefly, I thought he was making rather a lot out of confused players (and deliberately trying to confuse them)

I feel I have been actively bending over *not* to cause confusion.
Can you show any point where it looks like I'm trying to confuse someone?

Yes, it

did

, when you accused LicketyQuickety of deliberately letting a potentially accidental vote stand, and of not answering a question he hadn't actually been asked, and arguably at the beginning of the game with GreenNope (i.e what has formed the basis for our conversation). But I have had a look through your meta, and you are right: you have behaved similarly as town in the past on Day 1, so I'm inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt as to your motivations here.

Okay, so as examples of me potentially *trying* to cause confusion we have;

1. Accusing LQ of deliberately letting an accidental vote stand.
- I agree, I did this...what was confusing about it? It happened, I pointed out that it had happened, and questioned it. People were aware of my issue, aware of the vote, and were aware it might have counted until the mod VC clarified it hadn't. There was no confuson to be had there.

2. The attack ver answering a question he hadn't been asked.
- Well, he *did* do that, my error was thinking he hadn't answered another question that I thought I had asked him, but that I hadn't. This was pointed out to me and I *immediately* admitted the error, stated a clarification of what had happened, and we moved on. I don't think any confusion was caused, and even if it had been it was mostly me being confused, not others.

3. The begining with GreenNope.
- I don't even know what you're talking about. Was it me calling him out for doing stuff he did do? How was that confusing to anyone? I will agree we kind of have the idea that I was towncasing myself - but I find that to be an error utterly existent in other people's (LQ and maaaaybe Zyf) reactions to it. The commentary itself is perfectly clear.

I note that you also don't address *multiple* instances where I ask people to clarify what they mean, or when I explain again (and again, and again) my issues until people claim they understand them.

Seriously - you are reading me as trying to sow confusion?
How?
This appears to be utterly unsupported, yeah?

[Thor665]

@Frog - i am aware you are dropping the issue. That said, I could see scum dropping it when they realize they can't support it - so I'm trying to understand how any of that

looked

(past tense!) like I was consciously sowing confusion?

[Thor665]

@thor because walls are a pain in the neck
1) so you're telling me that you said things (ie "a scum is less likely to get voted by scum" and "i wouldn't do something to grab attention as scum) that you don't believe in but you defended yourself with them anyway?
2) except you kinda did? Look up.
3) yes, I do in fact agree with what he's saying because you did do some bs logic to defend yourself with, which you now state you don't believe in? Meaning you deliberately defended yourself incorrectly?

1. No, I said things I believed - because I believe it's possible for a person of either alignment to do the action of being the second vote on any given wagon. That has nothing to do with the belief that what I was actually doing was making a town case on myself.

2. I have looked it up - I didn't say that, how do you think I did? Let's look at the magic post again.

@GreenNope

Okay - how does that make them

Them being scum

more likely to vote second?

Here I appear to be questiong GN's stance that scum are more likely than town to vote second on a wagon. I wouldn't think that I need to state this clearly - but I don't think that's a valid tell. This is fairly implicit, but just for the record, no I don't find the tell valid

For instance, what if PKMSilver is scum? That would make it less likely for him to be voted by scum, yet more likely to be voted by town - making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.

This is only a town tell on me if PkmSilver is scum - so, if that *is* me arguing that I'm town, it would require Pkm to be scum - yet I'm not voting him. Almost as though this, and all other thoughts, are theory discussion.

Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does) which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.

This - if you squint a LOT - I could almost accept as thinking it's me arguing that I'm town.

Also, let's say I am scum, and you are town, if someone agrees with you that I am scum for placing a second vote, and votes me - would that then make me town and them scum, forcing you to move your vote? Or does your tell only apply for the very first second vote of the game?

That said, if you think the above is an argument that I'm town, then by definition what I'm arguing here is that I'm scum...which...y'know, is the OPPOSITE of what the suggested issue with my actions are. But, yeah, clearly I argued in the above line that I was town, but *didn't* argue here that I was scum, because...y'know, we need to ignore this line to have the raised issue make any sense at all.

I don't feel like you're actually thinking this through - am I missing something?

I know this is a stretch [/sarcasm], but I appear to be suggesting that the entire concept of alignment reading off of this tell is meaningless and not logical (but, y'know, also soooo strongly arguing that I'm obv. town even though I'm suggesting no alignment tell can be made.

3. What logic was bs?

[Dewy]

Okay, catching up now.

[Thor665]

1/3) alright here
a) first, let's establish that you were explaining that you weren't scum just because you voted second *cough*dejavu*cough*. Yes?
b) next, you acknowledge the fact that you were explaining 2 separate cases in which both cases GN's belief that 2nd vote is an alignment tell would make you townier rather than scummier
c) let us then state that you believe logic you stated in that response is sound.
Do you agree to these three statements?

a) I was explaining that the read was bad, which also would qualify as explaining that it didn't make me scum - yes.
b) Yes, and 1 where I could be scum and it also didn't make sense.
c) Yes.

Well here's my problem-and this answers #3 as well. None of your points are logical to me.
Let me preface this by saying that I do not expect this from a newbie but I absolutely do from someone experienced enough to be an IC.
A) If PKM is scum-as an experienced player, I fully expect you to be able to determine that doing certain activities that can possibly be taken as towntells can be used to your advantage as scum for free townie points. Regardless of whether or not Pkm is scum, you believe that a person voting scum has a low chance of being scum. But the thing is, in a time such as RVS, voting your scumbuddy is a great way to begin distancing in a way that you can shift later on with no repercussions whatsoever.

Sure - some people do that. It is further evidence that a second vote, by itself is not alignment telling.

B) Grabbing attention is a town-tell-Well, no, it isn't. Since you obviously didn't believe voting 2nd in RVS is in any way a form of attempting to draw substantial attention, there is no reason not to do it regardless of alignment. Also, grabbing attention occurs all the time when you make a huge wall case on a person, which scum is fully capable of doing, yeah? The point is that first of all you didn't /intentionally/ grab attention meaning that isn't relevant and that second of all scum is fully capable of grabbing attention in an attempt to get town points/not get called out for being behind the scenes/lurking.

Some people do call grabbing an attention a town tell, it's the inverse of the commonly believed "scum lay low" tell.
I, personally, don't consider any attention level tell alignment indicative.

So while I don't believe that second vote=scum (because hell, someone's gotta do it eventually) the fact that your defense is also illogical and you somehow think it makes sense pings me.

You have not actually shown it not making sense.

An IC-level scum player is fully capable of abusing WIFOM to get town points.

What? Look, here is the reality;

A Player had advanced a non alignment indicative read.
The way to show it as non-alignment indicative is to explain how it isn't indicative (much like you did with attention above)
In order to do so you have to show how it can be done by either alignment.
That is (as you are describing it, though I disagree with your word choice) WIFOM.
Like, try to explain why both alignment scan do a given act without using your definition of WIFOM - I'll wait.

2) Ok so instead you're saying that you believe in logic I just debunked^^
that's pretty much worse than where you were before.

I honestly have no idea where you think you're coming from right now.
I have expressed why I don't think you debunked anything. You can't debunk opinions in the first place, and you also aren't saying anything I'm expressing disagreement with *beyond that I'm not agreeing that I was making a town case*.

If you want to say I was introducing uncertainty (WIFOM if you prefer) into a read THAT WASN'T ALIGNMENT INDICATIVE AND NEEDED TO HAVE EXPLAINED WHY IT SHOULD HAVE UNCERTAINTY AS A READ then, yes, I will utterly agree that I did that, I've been saying that for some time.
But that is not even in the ballpark of doing what LQ said I did.
It is also not in the same country as lacking logic.

Does this make sense to you?

[Thor665]

Like I feel like your response was "aha! Thor was debunking the validity of GN's read!"
And I'm like - well duh, been saying that forever.

But LQ said I was making a town case on myself.

You're not even saying that - and yet you're acting like what he said makes sense, and what I said is crazy talk *while you agree that GN's read made no sense*.

I feel like I'm going crazy right now - please clarify this.

[Thor665]

Well, you sort of were. Debunking someone else's read that you're scum is pretty much the same thing as trying to prove you're town.

When what I was saying was 'there is no valid tell here' it's kind of weird to then decide that what I really meant was 'that tell makes me town'.

And even if you /were/ disproving the read without any intent to prove you were town (do you hear how little sense that makes?), I'm saying your reasons were BS coming from an IC.

I don't care if you like my reasons, I know they're legit game theory, and it's actually against my role as an IC to be lying about game theory so if you think that's what I was doing you need to report me to the site mods - what I care about is the concept of deciding I was town casing myself as a scum strategy, which is what LQ was advancing and which I was disagreeing with and which you are semi-supporting while also not supporting it at all and agreeing with me that the case of GN needed to be noted as not indicating town/scum intent (do you see how crazy it is to claim that I was attacking the town/scum readability of a case while suggesting that I was doing so to make a case that I was town).

[Thor665]

-GreenNope's logic was bad
-I did not like that you gave absolute statements about scum behavior without acknowledging the possibility for scum to do it deliberately to get town points
-I now know that you get and acknowledge that
-I consider defending oneself against a push with logic (rather than post analysis) to prove one is town to still be a town case, apparently you don't?
-Making a case for yourself as town is something I see as possible as both town and scum-i therefore DISAGREE if lickety's message is to say you /must/ be scum because of it; this is where our accordance ends

Ok. There.

- Yup.
- I did the opposite of this.
- Okay.
- I consider pointing out that there is no logic in a tell to not be a town case on the person the tell is applied against, I consider it a null case if I was forced to call it a a case.
- Okay...?

So, basically you're back to agreeing with me on basically everything.
We also now have LQ admitting he was wrong.
So - wow, shock, everyone is having to admit Thor had valid points and they were arguing dreck.
Glad that only took a few days.

You just said you can't lie when it comes to game theory! And you said the opposite of this in your post..?

Oh dear gawd - No I didn't.
Please feel free to report me - I don't care about this insanity anymore.

Thor, what are your 3 most recent scum games?

They can be found by looking at my topics.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... &sr=topics

I am going to change my stance on this here. I believe what I said is based on a misconception of what you actually meant, rather than a misrep and if you don't think there is a difference between those two, then I am just going to call you narrow minded.

And here we go. None of the rest of your post matters because of this one.
Yes, I know and knew you were going to do this eventually because there wasn't and isn't any support to your stance.
Basically now your new position is, 'Yeah, Thor is right, but I didn't have any scum intentions in doing what I did'.
I would feel better about that if you hadn't spent multiple days denying that you did what you did first.

Here is a game where the same thing happened. Its not exactly the same, but it should be clear that there was a player who was Scum reading me because they didn't understand me. I didn't link this game before because its so old, but its still basically the same thing.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=61890

To spare me some time, which was the player scumreading you whose interactions are similar - I'm starting to lose interest in full data mining your games.

convenient.

Okay, sure, it's super convenient...so...can you tell me who the player scumreading you was? Because, seriously, just tell me and spare me about fifteen-thirty minutes of reading?

[Thor665]

thor for the love of god
I know how to search your topics I just wanted the names gdi

The way I would find my most recent scum games is the same way you would - I'd just start random clicking. So - you can also random click.

Ah well, whatever...we have different definitions of stuff so arguing is pretty much pointless now.

And that for your and LQ's argument to work required ignoring the point where I made a "scum case" on myself and also that LQ has had to come out and agree that maybe he misunderstood me does *nothing* to how you're assessing this?

Then Thor-what are your thoughts on Pkm?

Townish.

Actually idk who i'm voting right now so VOTE: unvote I guess, until a voting log happens

Why don't you want to start a "log" as opposed to waiting for one to happen?

[Thor665]

Please elaborate.

Why is PKM townish? Could you give more detail on that?

I find the case on him to be really silly, and I find him listing me as a townread after a fairly aggressive rush from me at him early on to be more likely to come from town who is trying to get reads than scum extending an olive branch to someone they must think scum reads them.

Also I'm in no particular hurry to vote and hadn't realized that would be allowed lol

I'm not asking you to be in a hurry to vote - I'm asking why you want to wait for someone else to form a wagon and then toss in support on it rather than leading a wagon on someone you find scummy.
I always try to lead wagons.
Because no matter my alignment, it's better if people lynch whom I decide then lynch someone that someone else decides.
Why do you not agree?

[Thor665]

I thought Impoetic was pretty clearly talking about a vote count, not a wagon (I don't know how you got wagon from 'log').

Yeah, I figured that out at the top of this page which is why I dropped the line of questioning.

With respect to PkmSilver, I don't see your push on them being particularly aggressive. Is it just his reaction to this that marks him down as town for you?

Yes - that's what I already said.

[Thor665]

Mod didn't count it last time, but, seriously, people should be mindful of all these pseudo votes.

[Dewy]

Sorry for the sudden dip in activity. IRL hit me really hard.
This is Round 1 of catch-up.

@Poetic

143/185 If you wanted pressure on me, why did you unvote?
158 Not sure if this was addressed to me, but I thought it was a genuine scum slip. / scum giving up.

Unvote

188 I don't think fake reads list is the best way to "diversift the dicussion" because it just sows confusion in town.

back to this:
VOTE: GreenNope

@Thor

146 I'm not particularly concerned with the read itself. I'm more concerned about the thought process behind it.

150 - Comments on Zyf's reads:
I wouldn't use being active as something that's alignment indicative because scum can be active too.
Some of the reasons you used to scum read LQ are some of the reasons why I would town read him. For example, in his argument of "go ahead and lynch me", I'm reading it as frustrated town. IMO scum would be less willing to be lynched.

@frog

153 I had a early townread on LQ from 34. Also see my comments to 150.
Re. to his read on me: How so? Examples? How were they deflectly?

@Silver

163 with 7 pages of discussion, why go back to RVS?
172 Why is GN town and Poetic scum?

@GN

197 What is Zyf right about? Thoughts on the discussion? What are your other reads?

(note to self: Start on pg 8)

[Thor665]

Please elaborate.

Why is PKM townish? Could you give more detail on that?

I find the case on him to be really silly, and I find him listing me as a townread after a fairly aggressive rush from me at him early on to be more likely to come from town who is trying to get reads than scum extending an olive branch to someone they must think scum reads them.

Oh, please that's NAI and you know it.

No, I apparently don't know that.
I also disagree.

[Thor665]

@everyone: is it seriously possible that PkmSilver still doesn't know what we're asking? I'm considering dropping a vote down at this point.

Doesn't really leap out to me as a brilliant scum strategy - but if you think it does I would point out LQ has been doing the same sort of stuff in addition to other, less debatable, scummy actions.

[Dewy]

@Zyf

Well sh*t, GreenNope dipped out
That makes them extra scummy.

What do you mean by dipped out?

[Dewy]

@Silver

@Silver

163 with 7 pages of discussion, why go back to RVS?
172 Why is GN town and Poetic scum?

GN sounds townie and Poetic, his reads all over the place, he is becoming hard to read. I will add more info into that when i re-read again

Why does GN sound like town?
Just because someone's hard to read does not make them scum.

[Dewy]

@everyone: is it seriously possible that PkmSilver still doesn't know what we're asking?

Although that a possibility, Silver hasn't asked for clarification. (at least from the posts I've read.)

I'm trying to make my questions as clear as possible.

[Dewy]

@poetic

You sure aren't a robot because if you were one you'd have been among the people think I scumread myself xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

alright done being difficult. I think that was Zyf townslipping rather than scum!zyf picking something stupid to push on. Scum would see it for what it was, and probably wouldn't think it worth pushing on since it's easily confirmable as such; if anything, zyf would have to have been intentionally faking a townslip, but occam's razor and idk that's just how i see it. confbias=me

I'm not sure if it's a town slip if you scum read yourself. (whether fake or not)

[Dewy]

Honestly, I think Zyf is right.

Oh my, is this a scum claim?

[Dewy]

@GN

Honestly, I think Zyf is right.

You do mean reads wise right?

[Thor665]

OK I'm fickle and totally on both of your side on this now

Well can you????????

He did - read the post, here, I'll try to make it easier;

At first the way she was talking looked scummy to me, but after a while her way of talking was more townie-looking. I think that's the mostly way I was scumreading her.

[snip]


I'm trying dude, and I am still fairly new and you guys are having hard time against me, I know this is a wifom but if you must lynch me d1 you can. Anyways like Frog said? I believe I wouldn't last on LYLO.

I am sorry I don't even know how to edit posts. FML

That was what he answered, albeit super sloppily inside of posts.

@PKM - stop quoting things. Seriously, until you can figure out how to do it just try to say things without quotes.

One of the hardest things to do as scum is be able to go back on your "reads" in order to get a mislynch lined up; if you never gave reads, it's super easy to do.

I also, personally, would suggest it's super easy to do with giving all sorts of reads.
Ask me about it after the game if you'd like a brief breakdown of the process.

[Thor665]

On consideration, I think only the second bit was new stuff - I'm pretty sure the first bit was him from a while back.
But the other bit is new barring the last line.

[Thor665]

New or not, it is not this hard to go back, read our questions, and answer them. I even had, in my vote post, a very clear series of questions, complete with what kind of respond we wanted. There is literally no more we can give you. The only thing you're trying is my patience.

I think you and Zyf are taking very clear newbie tells, and then basically acting like they are scum tells or proof that he will never change and thus a decent policy lynch.

You are doing this while I think LQ has an *equal* argument available to suggest inability to answer/dodginess around questions, while that is then paired up with actual actions that appear to advance a scum agenda.

Why do you not see what I'm seeing?

[Thor665]

I learned a new word today!

Nugatory - good word.

[Thor665]

And no thor, I don't really see how Lickety's scum. Can you sum it up in something within the length of 5 sentences, because your walls are hard to follow, especially when directed at multiple people at once.

Sure, I did it once already;

I dinged him for misrepping me.
I called him scummy because he claimed that he started splitting hairs in defense of himself in order to scumhunt me (and, I'll note - has produced zero reads from doing so)

He claims he didn't misrep me because *Thor said the word town and his own name thus suggesting wanting to connect them!* - serious, that's what he has claimed most recently.
He has defended his splitting hairs thing by claiming he does that elsewhere - and I've claimed I have found no evidence of that in looking over his games and asked him to maybe show me one instance - he has not managed that.

Also, as a tertiary, late thing, I have claimed that his meta here does not match up with his town meta in other games, and is much more AtE loaded here than elsewhere.

That's the argument in a nutshell.
Do you follow it now?

4 sentences, maybe 5 depending how you count parentheticals.
Since then LQ has shifted "I didn't misrep you Thor" to "I misunderstood you Thor" because he recognizes that his argument has no support - now, I personally still have issue with that because the argument had no support from the get go, and that it took multiple days/pages to get him to admit that much curls my toes, but you should have the awareness he made that shift to draw your own conclusions.

[Thor665]

Oh, I will also note he called it "convenient" that I wasn't reading a fifth game of his to prove a meta point when I asked him to just tell me the name of the person he was interacting with that looks like this game.

I find it convenient for him, moreso than me - since, y'know, if he *did* what he said he did he could shut me up. Instead he tosses entire games at me and says "look here!" points at nothing in particular, and then when I do read them and find no support and say so he just ignores that and links other games. That is expressly trying to cloud the info, to my mind. Again, draw your own theory for why he's playing it that way - I don't have one that ends with him being town.

[Thor665]

Since Lickety's already reached the point at which they resort to backing off/AtE, I think we'll get more out of Pkm though, yeah?

If you think so, keep pressing on it - I've stated my fill on the wagon validity.

I hesitate to hammer Lickety when I haven't seen them make any other pushes–I fail to see why a scum player's initial plan would be push pettily on an IC with a tendency to make wall posts; it has a very low chance of success, and there's plenty of newbies to pick on instead.

I will agree I was not a valid easy target choice, but his lack of any other motion of any note and total sub lurk doesn't exactly ring my towndar either.

I'd also keep an eye on GN's replacement because I've found that in the games I've played so far mafia is far more common to be replaced. Not sure why, I guess because scum's harder/more stressful/less fun because there's nothing to solve?

I have found over the years that the reality is replacing out has nothing to do with alignment.

Oh yeah, now that 1710's ended-What meta were you using to determine I was town, thor? I was scum that match so I fail to see how that's a good usage of applied meta, especially coming from someone's FIRST scum game.

You are playing utterly different in this game.
In that game you did spit all, attacked a bit, and soft lurked.
In this game you came out and set up multiple systems that you indicated desire to maintain.
Now, maybe you realized that your last scum meta wasn't brilliant and opted to totally shift it up - but I tend to be a strong believer that actual meta change always happens in town games first.

[Thor665]

I...soft lurked?
I don't recall trying to do that.

Soft lurked is my way of saying active lurked - you were posting, you just weren't saying anything.

What's a "sub lurk" and a "soft lurk"?

Functionally they are both called active lurk on site.
But since one can active lurk while posting often, or posting almost never, I kind of break them up in my mind.
At the end of the day - considering it avoiding providing content and you are in the right sphere.

I think PkmSilver's behaviour is actually scummy, and I think it unlikely that everything so far can be chalked up to his newness. If you think you can get him to understand and answer our questions, then by all means try; it would genuinely be a help.

So your theory is that he's scum.
He is scum who hopes to not give too many bits of info.
So he then offered up a few soft fake reads.
When questioned on the reads, he still doesn't want to give info so he intentionally misunderstands the questions to dodge doing so.
He does this repeatedly.
When garnering extra pressure on this and becoming a top scumspect of discussion due to it he doubles down on the habit and also pleads an AtE 'just lynch me then' response.

All to avoid giving town the mountain of info that is his to unintentionally provide.

Or...and just bear with me on this one...he's a newb, who may or may not have English as a first language, and assuredly barely knows how to operate the BB system (or is faking that really well).

Do I think I can magically sweep in and solve his communication issues?
Not at all.

Do I want to pretend like those extend into a scumtell in order to add pressure to a slot that can barely communicate?
Not at all.

You do you. I have no idea why you keep asking me to defend a stance I've made clear and, if you think he really is scum, is a defense that only becomes stronger the more you ask me to do it.

Also, I am seeing what you're seeing with regards to LicketyQuickety. I just don't think adding more pressure will get us much at this stage, especially not if his activity is going to decrease. If he ends up being a viable lynch or I think we could gain something from pushing him, then I'd happily switch wagons, but I like where I am now just fine.

If you see what I see with LQ then you should help me lynch LQ.
I'm not in info discovering with that slot, I'm into claim time with that slot.

[Dewy]

@Zyf

i'm gonna have to agree with lickety here.

What do you agree with him on?

[Dewy]

@LQ

1) there is no reason to say "agree or disagree" it looks like a Scum tactic to say this because it should be obvious that they are stating a read someone can agree or disagree with.

IMO, this is NAI because from the way, I interpreted it, it wasn't really a wagon statement.

2) on top of the fact that they said "agree or disagree" they are representing that they are strong in this read by saying that, which contradicts them saying they are "

starting

to townread Froggie."

Not seeing how this is scum indicative because players can get reads at different times.

[Dewy]

That case on Sliver was a bit of a stretch.

[Dewy]

@Poetic

After that interaction I think I'll place LQ comfortably in Null.

personally I find null a bit uncomfortable

Why is that?

[Dewy]

I think this line of you proves 100% that you are town.

Hold on. You having a 100% town read on anyone is scum logic.

Nothing proves 100% that someone else is town. Unless they flip or if you are scum.

[Dewy]

@Silver

PkmSilver, are you scum?

No, I just happen to live in Calgary and it's stampede week (cowboy), made me remember of a woody meme I seen on memedroid (memes)

Whaaaa...you never answer frog's question.

[Dewy]

@Silver

PkmSilver, are you scum?

No, I just happen to live in Calgary and it's stampede week (cowboy), made me remember of a woody meme I seen on memedroid (memes)

Whaaaa...you never

answer

answered frog's question.

EBWOP

[Dewy]

@Silver

These 2 are town ^^^^

Where is this coming from? Iirc you called poetic scum. Why did your read on her change?

[Dewy]

Dewy what is you read on PKM? You are kinda waffling on that slot a lot.

My read on Silver is null-leaning scum. I didn't like the 100% town read.

[Dewy]

Sorry, it's really late where I live. Reads as of 282. (5 more pages >.< )

Townish:
Zyf
Thor
Poetic
frog
LQ

Null:
Hype Slot, Hay

Scummy:
Silver
GN

[Thor665]

I find it comical that you don't think there was any reason for me to misunderstand what you said in the first place.

I actually have noted a number of times why I considered that you simply misunderstood and explained why I thought that it didn't gel out as an explanation.
So you can complain that maybe I didn't consider it "enough" or something - but saying what you're saying now is a lie or lack of reading.

You never really got across why it was a misrep.

Yet I did get across to you why it was a misunderstanding?
This is hogwash.

You said I was twisting your words when I wasn't - I was just seeing something in the way you posted things to mean something different than what you intended.

Yeah, by suggesting it was a town case and ignoring that by your logic it was also a scum case. Like, you literally ignored something I said in order to claim I was being scummy when your evidence was immediately the very next line to the thing you needed to ignore to make your case.

I don't like the way this game is going. Especially since Thor has been concerned primarily with a single issue almost the entire game and almost everything he does revolves around that.

I hear this sort of thing a lot.
I'll respond with the answer that always defeats it, let's see if you can overcome this dread rebuttal (few do);

What is the subject you feel I'm not discussing? I would be happy to provide my thoughts on it.

Usually I don't even get an answer to this question, so if you can even answer it you're ahead of most.
(I don't think you can answer it - because I think you're still making up stuff about me)

[Thor665]

You said I was twisting your words when I wasn't - I was just seeing something in the way you posted things to mean something different than what you intended.

I actually answered this one straight up and seriously - but on my usual re-read for coding errors it occured to me that LQ is basically giving the exact definition of a misrep as a description of what he did, while complaining that I'm not considering his viewpoint.
Literally all you have to do to make this the perfect definition of misrep is add 'intentional' to it.
That is it. It could then go straight in the wiki.

The rest of the game continues to sleep on this one.
Ah well.

[Thor665]

I hear this sort of thing a lot.
I'll respond with the answer that always defeats it, let's see if you can overcome this dread rebuttal (few do);

What is the subject you feel I'm not discussing? I would be happy to provide my thoughts on it.

Usually I don't even get an answer to this question, so if you can even answer it you're ahead of most.
(I don't think you can answer it - because I think you're still making up stuff about me)

OK, I'll start with this: frogs read on me. Lots to discuss about that that you seem to be leaving alone.

What is his read that I've been leaving alone?
Because I've continually been bringing you up to him, and most recently he has straight up told me he agrees with me, but with the caveat that he wants to push Pkm a bit.
What am I supposed to be doing, reminding everyone he agrees with me?
Challenging him for agreeing with me?
I don't get the thing you think I need to address...clarify?

[Thor665]

Also, I am seeing what you're seeing with regards to LicketyQuickety. I just don't think adding more pressure will get us much at this stage, especially not if his activity is going to decrease. If he ends up being a viable lynch or I think we could gain something from pushing him, then I'd happily switch wagons, but I like where I am now just fine.

Like, here's his last comment.
He is answering me.
He is answering me *because I'm discussing with him his read on you*.
Which means I am discussing that.

[Thor665]

I don't believe frong is sheeping you so you bring up a moot point.

I don't believe he's sheeping me either.
You aren't answering what I should be talking about though.
He *is* agreeing with me.

frogs read on me is more subtle than that. You disagree?

His read is more subtle than what I quoted him saying about his read on you?
Yes - I disagree.

Especially dewy/pkm/GN.

I've called both Dewy and Pkm town (Dewy being the stronger read by a solid margin, Pkm is very much a lean)
GN hasn't even posted since I last called him scum - I still think the slot is scummy.

[Thor665]

Thor, you said later that this was part reaction test.. in what ways would I have responded that would lead you to an

accurate

read on me?

Well, what do you define as 'accurate'?
You ducked answering about the misquote - which I took as slightly scummy.
If you had responded at all I probably would have taken it as townish or at least null, since you would have been trying to avoid vote confusion.

Thor is here advocating that I was not being careful with my vote, which is complete bogus because at this stage of the game I hadn't even voted yet. If thor wants to say we should be careful with our vote I that would be one thing, but he never mentions here about being careful with quotes, which I think is the more important matter that transpired.

Welcome to hair split city.
Population: You.

Let it be known that this was the post in question that stated this Smurffest with thor. He at one point tried to dress this up as me answering a question for pkm, which he never admitted he was wrong there.

As long as you ignore me admitting I was wrong here;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p8091704
You're right, I never admitted I was wrong.

Then Thor drops this and later dresses this one up to mean that he said there is an equal chance that he is Scum as he is Town based on the post I quoted from him.

I never dropped that claim actually - and I never said I was claiming equal chance of me being scum or town. What I was saying was the tell was meaningless.
What I *did* claim was that if I was to apply the logic you were using to what I said - that I implied equal chance of me making a scum case as a town case on myself.
I have never shifted from the claim that I was just discussing theory in that post.

[Thor665]

You also don't get to have a go at me for asking for assistance with respect to PkmSilver. I have stated my issues with that slot, and you have affirmed time and again your issues with LicketyQuickety. If you want me to switch wagons, then I need a resolution to my problems with PkmSilver's slot. Since you think they come from being new and misunderstanding what is being asked of them, this should be possible. As the IC, you're the best person to do it. This is being proactive: I've identified why my vote isn't moving, under what circumstances it might move (over to your preferred lynch, no less), what can be done to effect these, and from whom the action is likely to come. Not only that, I've done it all politely. Your response has been to denigrate, and my respect for you has declined as a result.

If you think I have offered him zero advice on how to communicate in this game, you're not paying attention.

[Thor665]

I literally just told him yesterday to stop quoting because he was editing badly and it was confusing folks. That is direct advice for solving a communication issue.
That is now over zero, so huzzah for me.

[Thor665]

I don't get the joke - I'm not claiming I'm selfless, I am pointing out that I did what I said I was doing, which you were claiming I wasn't.

[Thor665]

Yes, that was what I meant

I know we're lacking two players, but I'm a little concerned that it's getting late in the day and the game is slowing down. Dewy, if you scumread PkmSilver, what is your hesitation in asking for a claim?

If that's what you want - then I would note no one is doing it.
For the most part people are voting him over it.
I'm standing around saying it's a playstyle thing and not scummy.

I can't magically teach a man to write. I don't have the skills to even being. I can offer advice on how to play mafia and on how to use the code on this board.
I have done so to him, generally without being asked.

But if his inability to understand what is being asked of hm for this game is real (and I believe it is) it's far beyond the scope of me, or this game, to "fix" it to whatever shift you want.
I *CAN* assess the scum/town metric of his play and have done so.
I can also offer my opinion as a player on the quality of the wagon.
I can also, as I have done, attempt to smooth those communication breaks I see.

But I am not the great savior, I have no capability to be it, and also no duty or job to do it.
So I find the complaint rather asinine.

[Dewy]

Dewy, if you scumread PkmSilver, what is your hesitation in asking for a claim?

Forgot he was at L-1. My current read on him is null- leaning scum and I'd much rather have a GN lynch.

[Thor665]

Thor, how is it different between PKM and GN?

How is what different?

I will presume the question is why I scum read Green and not Pkm - that would be because Green advanced that second vote = scummy thing without being able to break down his logic in any way at all, while arguing that it was logical.

Pkm hasn't done that, so I don't scum read him for the thing he hasn't done.

If you meant some other "it" then let me know.

[Thor665]

in my short time on MS I've already seen jokes be used as WIFOM

Everything is WIFOM.

[Thor665]

Those are also WIFOM, even in Open games.

[Dewy]

you mean he's clearly not PR?
VOTE: Impoetic
Scumslip?

Wait, it's

you

again.

The whole of my last post was me attempting to snarkily reiterate myself about how PKM is obviously claiming blue and if he claimed PR it would be a scumslip so I probably shouldn't have said it in the first place but whatever, he wasn't about to come back and magically see the two posts where I pointed out that he said "Lynch me if you want" and he probably wasn't going to claim PR anyway because he is likely blue.

What do you mean by blue? Blue as in VT?

Scumslips usually involve logic, not wording. Even if I hadn't meant to say exactly what you asked about, it wouldn't be a scumslip!

Not necessary. Scumslips can involve anything that's a scum claim.

[Dewy]

*WHEN* PKM flips

villager

.

And I don't

know

he's villager, obviously, but that's my guess about his alignment at this point and it certainly seems to be his claim. ~_^

These two statements kind of contradict each other.

[Dewy]

Silver needs to get in here and respond what we asked him.

[Dewy]

No lolhammers please.

[Dewy]

Also many people have been calling me experienced but this is my first game IMO. I townread those two because the way they interact are really townie and I think that mafia wouldn't have interaction lines like that.

What about those interactions make them town?

[Dewy]

Alright let me re-read to tell you, my whereabouts on this read.

Started looking scum:

...Wooper (WHO CAN USE ICE PUNCH, WHILE HAVING NO ARMS!)

ice bodyslam

there is seldom more than one vote (but we do have two votes on pkmsilver )

Honestly, I understand why someone would vote for them (RVS), but two is a tad bit suspicious, though it may be a coincidence.In my first game, the IC (who was town) joined bandwagon during RVS so it WOULDN'T be pointless. As you just said, 1 vote doesn't create pressure, so joining a bandwagon makes it better. There's no incentive for mafia to try to get someone lynched during RVS when they know it is RVS unless they're severely mistaken about the length of a normal day phase, imo. (I did try to argue that before so it looked like I was scumhunting, though, as mafia.)

I think your hesitation and brushing off your reads as coincidence is far more likely to be a scumtell, if any has been dropped at all on page 1.

I wrote that before seeing page 2, but there's nothing really to say about what's here. @Lick: Maybe if it continues, but so far, there was only one post and it was, if anything, helping discussion get started earlier.

VOTE: GreenNope

And she looked town here:

Frick. Sorry, I got this game ocnfused with the other one already. Yeah, I managed to forget that you were one of the primary people SRing GreenNope. Not counting RVS, was there a third player you voted that I've forgotten about too? u_u;

I said "tunnel" because the past few(?) pages have been primarily you two debating back and forth. That might not qualify as such, but it's what caused me to feel assured in using the word, at the time, along with getting the details of everything utterly mixed up. I'm sorry.

Somehow, despite reading all your posts, I haven't gotten the gist of your arguments.

Man, this is embarrassing. I guess I'll definitely be trying to reread some tonight. It just seems like a bunch of small thing you guys are getting on each others' cases about, from what I've seen. What do you think of Dewy? it seems like everyone but him has been considered despite his posts all being fairly low-key. I guess the GreenNope/Lick team makes sense, but more because Lickety would turn on Green as maf with GN town here than anything else.

Sorry once more. :c

Quote tag fix -Mod

Still missing the question. Like what about those make them town/scum.

[Dewy]

@Silver

At first the way she was talking looked scummy to me, but after a while her way of talking was more townie-looking. I think that's the mostly way I was scumreading her.

What about her talking

make them scummy or townie?

I'm trying dude, and I am still fairly new and you guys are having hard time against me, I know this is a wifom but if you must lynch me d1 you can. Anyways like Frog said? I believe I wouldn't last on LYLO.

You're dodging the questions and playing the novice card. Please answer the questions.

[Dewy]

Yes dewy we all agree
I just think pkm siteflaked so atp we're playing a D1 6 person game
Meaning we have a super high chance to ML

It would be nice if silver came back to answer what we asked him.

I'm not seeing the correlation between these.
What does silver's siteflake have to do with a ml?

[Thor665]

Yes dewy we all agree
I just think pkm siteflaked so atp we're playing a D1 6 person game
Meaning we have a super high chance to ML

If you think he siteflaked - can you remind me why you still find the slot scummy?
Isn't he clever scum playing the game of miscommunication to fool us all?
And now he's siteflaking to achieve his final form of looking like a player with communication issues that didn't get the game?

It's like you're saying something that makes sense, and then not deciding it might have any bearing at all on your vote.

thor - like I feel all his reasons for things are based on the articulation of what was said including his own and I just can't give him a Town read for that.

Yeah, you got me - I *do* base my reads off things that were said and done in thread.

[Thor665]

I will agree this wagon has as much validity as an RVS wagon, if that's what you're asking.

[Thor665]

I will agree that Pkm hasn't offered particularly insightful analysis - I disagree that this makes him impossible to read.

[Dewy]

Hi Malakittens!
Update us with thoughts and reads when you catch up please.

Thoughts on the Silver wagon?

[Dewy]

@Reed

Thor is...Thor. I'm going to have trouble reading him and I don't think my stream of consciousness posting will sit well with him either. His content seems pro-town but I do want more time to run over his posts as well.

Thor - townish (2nd vote in RVS. usual theory aggression. null for him)

These two statements kind of contradict each other. What is your read on Thor? Is it null or town?

LQ - townlean (no RVS, null)
pushes the idea of newbtown with GN, i liked this.

Why did you like it? Iirc, you scumread GN.

impo - feels fencesitty even if her content doesn't seem it

Examples? Not really following the scumread on poetic.

Also, I'm a she.

[Thor665]

LQ's content since I replaced in I'm still liking for town.

[Thor665]

Also I just read a game out of his list on mafiascum and the one I happened to pick had him as scum that posted other games as evidence which was one of the things I was thinking was not a scum reaction so

I found his game listing very pro scum.
I'm almost about to just meta dive that last one he linked just for the hell of it to see if what he said is in there is even remotely in there.
Thus far the games he linked pretty much have shown the opposite of what he claims they will for me.
ANd he totally refuses to actually discuss that stance with me, or provide specific points that support his stated claims - I think it's all smoke and mirrors and that he hopes no one will read anything.

[Dewy]

Dewy pointing out your "scum-slip" pings me majorly. Generally scum like to justify their votes with scum-slips that aren't really slips, so that when someone flips town they can fall back on that. Zyf's reaction to it was better (especially since it was following Dewy pointing it out, so he's already influenced by that). Your list having you in the scum pile in context was meant to be an obvious chuck off at your reads not matching LQ's (since you went with the "my reads are the antithesis of yours" comment).

I interpreted it differently because I thought it was a genuine scum-slip where poetic forgot that she shouldn't be scumreading herself. It cleared up after she clarified it, so it was a misunderstanding on my part.


On another note, how was my reaction different from Zyf's reaction?

[Thor665]

I found LQ's early content + current to be town. He is my highest townread. Run me through why you're voting him?

Since you were so early in the game and have since responded to cases I've made - I'm not doing this on the presumption I don't need to anymore.

I was honestly surprised that Thor saw it as a joke rather than jumping on it like he'd been jumping on every other small thing.

Welcome to evidence that Thor actually doesn't jump on every small thing - crazy revelation that people hate to let go of, I know.

While you are right in that you had a point that you were trying to get across, I don't think you did case yourself as being scum here

There is no point in presenting this - because I agree.
My statement has always been 'if those other comments count as town cases, this one counts as a scum case.
I'm well aware I am presenting a silly idea *except in connection with their claim that me going "let's say Pkm is scum" counts as me presenting a case where I'm clearly town as opposed to pointing out that the tell is silly.

because you turned that argument around to basically say "but scum wouldn't do that and therefore the second vote I placed was a town tell". This is what I believe LQ took issue with.

I didn't do that, and LQ actually avoided addressing that third point like the plague because it shot holes in his case.

I do not believe that LQ meant to misrep you.

That his case required him to cut out the opening and ending of my commentary to even pretend he was making sense obligates me to disagree with you. That is the definition of misrep. Conscious twisting of statements. I am not being convinced that he didn't intentionally avoid that line. I even specifically asked about it and he just kept harping on the other two and claiming there was no way I was talking theory or the tell - which is blatantly a clear lie as the very first line is a reference to an ongoing conversation and even posits the question 'why are scum more likely to do this?' (which, shockingly, is why it starts by presenting reasons town might do it - CrAzY).

He also will get progressively worse - if you're only on Page 8, buckle up.

[Thor665]

I actually agree - beyond me I don't think there was any resistance.

[Thor665]

I agree with that.

[Thor665]

More the former than the latter (I actually don't really get the concept of "high information Day 1 wagons" and think people are drinking silly sauce if they think one offers more info than another).
But if he's scum, he's by definition either my partner, or his partner is bussing him.
That's a limited chance occurrence.
Of much higher occurrence is that two scum players are perfectly fine seeing him dead - which helps to justify the paucity of resistance (to be frank, I'd like to hear Frog justify the "resistance" he sees here, because as far as I can tell there's basically been none). I'm his, by far, strongest defender, and all I'm sying is 'it's pretty clear he's a newbie/bad player' and that's the beginning and end of my defense.
Other people are calling it some sort of whacko double blind trick of his, where he's actually a clever player faking misunderstanding to avoid info giving (ignoring that a player clever enough to go with that as a plan could probably, y'know, just take the easy route and BS a bit and be fine)

Lack of case and big wagon, reads like a wagon being pushed by scum and newb town.

[Dewy]

I think the wagon on silver was mostly to pressure him to answer us, rather than to actually get him lynched.

[Thor665]

Well, since that bird has flown the coop - would both of you wanna get crazy and vote a top scumread of yours instead of pressuring a replace in who now knows your votes are meaningless?

[Thor665]

@Frog - I could see that logic. Oh, hey, look, LQ is on your list - you should vote him.

Thor-Null. I can't really digest their play without a flip. They seem to play quite aggressive even when it's not generating traction, but I don't know what that means for them, it can go either way. Any meta to help me, thor?

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... arently.29


Eh, there are a couple of things, but nothing that is really of much help as, if I knew stuff that was much help, I'd either shift my scum play to match my town play or would not reveal it in order to help my scum game. I've heard other people make some claims, though I think they're all hooey, but claims I've heard are that I'm less friendly when scum (not that I seem to win awards when I'm not scum but...meh). I've also heard that I'm more cooperative as town, which *might* be true - though I personally would think the distinction would be too fine to spot, but others have claimed it.

I've yet to see anyone read me with anything resembling actual better than random guessing accuracy.

The current VC is problematic, we should have a legitimate wagon or two right now.

We should.
Of course basically half the players aren't even voting, which makes it hard.

PEdit - and, lo and behold the world shifts.

[Dewy]

Townish:
Zyf
Thor
LQ
Reed
frog

Null:
Silver slot, GL (Doesn't help that they left questions unanswered.)
Poetic

Scummy:
GN slot, Mala

[Dewy]

@Zyf

Dewy-They diffuse a wagon with (reasonable) logic even though they were never even on it

I'm not sure what you mean by diffusing a wagon. Can you give examples?

they ask a lot of questions, but they don't really take those responses to make any real cases.

How would you define a "real case"?

[Dewy]

@Poetic

In fact, VOTE: Dewy. I was having the same qualms but had some TR on Dewy until recently and I just think it was probably stupid enough that this is a good vote

This is pretty opportunistic. I'm curious with why you didn't vote for me until Zyf did; even though you said, "but had some TR on Dewy until recently".

VOTE: Impoetic

[Dewy]

@All recent replacements

Please catch-up asap. The day is really soon.

[Dewy]

dewy does do a lot of echoing and diddling.

I was too lazy to compile a catch-up post, so I responded to each post as I read it. I didn't intend to echo anyone.

Also, Dewy, I don't see how my vote looks opportunistic or scummy (enough for a vote on someone who wasn't being voted previously when we have little time left). For one thing, if I were mafia, I'd have any number of votes to pick out of for the same 2-vote outcome without drawing attention to the fact that I was sort of sheeping. What's special about Zyf that I should wait for him to vote someone NEW and then follow that?

What pinged me was that you said "recently" which implied that you waited before you decided you vote me. The problem was that you waited for someone to push on me before you made your move.

[Dewy]

...dewy proceeds to ignore my entire case in favor of putting up a weak defense against a weak argument

I'm sorry, but I have 2 projects due in an hour. I'll get to them either later or tomorrow.

[Thor665]

@Jaereed:

Well, "no new content" would be an exaggeration, but dewy does do a lot of echoing and diddling.

I will agree - I don't see the scum plan there. Echoing something is still putting your stamp on it - functionally you're "echoing" Frog, so is that an issue for you?
I'd take a statement of something someone else had already said over an empty vote player any day.

Lying on intent to hammer is not something I personally think is a great idea unless you're trying to make yourself look worse.
I'm not an official authority though.

Thor?

The only purpose of intent to hammer is to force a claim.
If you're lying about it - then that suggests you don't scumread the person being asked to claim.
I don't see any advantage in forcing a town read to claim.
I question the point of forcing a null read to claim.
Unless you're scum - then this is all good play.

VOTE: Ranger

Sorry, wrong thread.

What is it about games lately and hanging votes?
Depending on how the mod counts votes - you placed a non-legal vote. You may want to clarify where your vote is.

Thor basically I want to know why you were townreading Dewy in 125 cause that is a terrible read imo

Well...when you ask super broad like this, my easy rejoinder (and one I am serious about getting your reply on) is to go "why do you scumread the slot, cause that is a terrible read imo".
WHoop-dee-doo, amirite?

But my reasoned answer is - I can see the work. I hear people complaining about the echoing - I don't care, that's not scummy.
I hear nothing else that resembles a case beyond acting shocked that Dewy maybe misread a slip.
I see new excited town do that sort of stuff constantly - and that about half the game sheeped that read (oddly not an echo read, go figure) speaks to the validity of my belief that town will derp chase non-tells.
But what I see when I read Dewy is someone who is plodding through, working hard, trying to understand stuff. It is writ large on that iso.

Literally the only thing about the wagon I don't dislike is that LQ isn't part of it, because if he was I could scream about his placement.

So what's your case?

[Thor665]

If we're talking opportunism, JaeReed, then I wonder what you'd make of this if it wasn't you doing it.
That said, what pings me more is Dewy's vote on Impoetic; the reasoning is taken precisely from your vote on me and it reads very much like an OMGUS. I've noted my own suspicions of Dewy throughout the game, and I agree with much of what Zyf in particular has been saying over the course of the last few pages. Impoetic is also right that she has faded into the background at times during the game, which is probably a result of parroting other players and asking easy questions that aren't then followed up on. If you read her ISO you'll also find she's unduly concerned with how she looks to other players, pressing for information as to their reservations at a time of no pressure on her slot. All these things are scummy because it shows no willingness to actively scumhunt, rather a decision to just fit in and let the game go by.

This is intent to hammer. Dewy, please claim.

JaReed is opportunistic for switching read on Dewy (for this case and issue to make any sense Dewy has to be town)
Hammer intent Dewy...

@Thor: apologies if this is clear from one of your earlier posts, but do you have any scumreads aside from LicketyQuickety? My read on him has weakened, though that might just be because he's been flying under the radar as of late. If we get some revelation from Dewy then I really need to rethink the game.

You or Mala.

Echoing is one thing but excessive echoing without acknowledging it was something that I assumed was a scumtell because it's going with the flow. Then again, you're right, it's not entirely specific to dewy.

I don't like how fast this BW happened even though frog sr'd dewy before. |:

I was going to respond, but Zyf said it clear enough for me;

You're contradicting yourself if you say you aren't comfortable with the lynch but are going to vote anyway
We're not pressure wagoning anymore, we're actually pushing a lynch here

A hammer intent is clear statement that if you're not comfortable with the wagon - get off the wagon.
You can't fencesit a lynch.

[Thor665]

I will actually agree with Impoetic on the speed of this wagon, but considering it is mostly the same suspects as the Pkm wagon which also popped up really quick over nothing, color me three shades of unsurprised.

[Thor665]

The fact that you continue to vote lickety when it's not gaining traction when another scumread of yours (frog) can be brought to L-3 makes me completely uninterested in your "callout;" especially considering you imply that you believe that scum is among them without choosing to vote any of them.

Frog currently has 1 vote on him, if I move off my top scum read and vote Frog I will still be on a 2 vote wagon, which is how much LQ has.
If Impoetic had stayed, i would have probably moved.
Are you saying if I voted Frog you would too?
Who is the other vote I'm supposed to get here?
Like, I think you mean Impoetic - and that just happened and went away while I wasn't even around to bandwagon it.

You also don't bother to read the case I wrote to try and dispute it and simply assume that we are a 3-scum hivemind (ooh, that's physically possible, isn't it?), which is further evidence that you are just vote parking for the sake of it but aren't trying to get anything done.

1. I don't think you're scum.
2. I offered my take on townDewy
3. I don't see a point in me line by lining your Dewy case - is that what you really want me to do? Okay...that is coming next.

Here, let me ask bluntly–Do you oppose the Dewy lynch?
And if so, what indicates to you that they aren't scum?

Well...I know I was REALLY VAGUE but...

I can see the work. I hear people complaining about the echoing - I don't care, that's not scummy.
I hear nothing else that resembles a case beyond acting shocked that Dewy maybe misread a slip.
I see new excited town do that sort of stuff constantly - and that about half the game sheeped that read (oddly not an echo read, go figure) speaks to the validity of my belief that town will derp chase non-tells.
But what I see when I read Dewy is someone who is plodding through, working hard, trying to understand stuff. It is writ large on that iso.

Literally the only thing about the wagon I don't dislike is that LQ isn't part of it, because if he was I could scream about his placement.

[Thor665]

@Zyf

Spoiler: Da Dewy Case!

Keep this in mind-they want a GN lynch more than a Pkm lynch; they do not push a GN lynch whatsoever.

Okay, I will keep that in mind.

"Blue as in VT?"-Pushing terminology is fine but instead of pushing why Impoetic reverted to different terminology Dewy simply asks for clarification on something that's pretty clear.

Sure...Dewy also didn't call it scummy.
So, crazy idea, Dewy was asking a question for clarification.
Even if you want to claim it was a scum strategy...like...what strategy?

And then this ambiguous statement: A scumslip is anything that's a scum claim? Duh, that's like saying, a keyboard is a board that uses keys to type stuff on a computer. It's something we all know. Mind you that this never goes anywhere.

Neither does this scumtell - currently, at best, you're making a case that Dewy is sloppy and new with definitions and mafia terminology.
Dewy's a newbie, right...so, basically newbie scum or town, so it's all null looking.
Where's the meat here?

Silver needs to get in here and respond what we asked him.

Thank you, captain obvious.

Another non scum tell.
The best I see is complaining of noise ratio...I will remind you at this stage Frog was complaining to me that I wasn't leaping in trying to "get more" from Pkm, so this feels like non alignment telling unless you want to agree with me that by Frog trying to get someone else to add noise that was their scum plan.
Vote Frog?

No lolhammers please.

Yes, this has been VERY clearly established by frog and I. Hey wait a second.

So if two people say it the third is scummy?
Nah.
I'll agree it didn't need to be said - frankly, whichever of you and Frog said it second didn't need to say it either.
Frog, just a few posts ago, clarifying someone was still at L-1 didn't need to be said - lots of stuff doesn't need to be said.
Why would scum say it and not town?
And, again, if it's scummy...vote Frog?

If dewy flips scum FROG is #1 scum partner

I don't see that connection at all - Frog started the Dewy push as far as I can recall.

Rather than push the GN lynch Dewy "wanted" so bad, they try to get mala on the silver wagon (which they aren't even on, by the way). Neither slot has included any new content since the last pushes.

So, about 100 posts and 3 days later Dewy may or may not have changed his mind - and that is scummy because town don't do that...?
I kinda see this, but it looks like a massive stretch, because there were a lot of posts in there about Pkm that easily could have shifted Dewy from a lean scum read to a stronger scum read.

Diffuses wagon they were never on here. Mixes well with frog's attitude.
Again.

THIS I actually find scummy - the flight from that push was strange.
I list Frog as doing the same thing though.
Vote Frog?

They push a catch-up, say the day is ending soon.
AKA "Slap your vote down I need it to mix in because my initial wagon's now gone"
It also doesn't provide any new sentiments that would be a revelation to the replacements. They know they need to catch up.

I will agree this is meaningless.
I can, if I squint, see the scumtell you're claiming here.
It would require a more skilled scum than I think Dewy could be for me to really see it.

Does that respond to your case well enough for you?
If you want to have the discussion, there are some very valid questions in there.
tl:dr - I think you're pushing air.

[Thor665]

@Thor-Alright. I'll take your points for now. But I'm not leaving until Dewy responds to my questions (when they have the time, IRL comes first).

Dewy should - in fact I thought it was silly to be asking me to case against your case.

Also when the hell was LQ a 2-vote wagon?

You're right, I'm mixing up my vote counts, both Newbies I'm in are being pretty vote silly.

Unvote: Liquity Quickity
Vote: Frog

I massively reserve the right for 'told you sos' on LQ later on if he isn't lynched today though.
I will be *SO* insufferable.

[Thor665]

Why don't you vote them and start pushing them to convince me they're scummier.

*cough* ::Points above your post::

I haven't seen Dewy "plodding along" for a good while now. Where have you?

The difference is you look at their play and see scum parroting.
I look at their play and see town taking their first steps at scumhunting.
Through those two lenses we see different worlds.

And if you think drop off in play is scum indicative why weren't you nuthugging on LQ as of a week ago?
He is totally awol except for active lurk dodging.

[Thor665]

How can you think that a town Dewy genuinely thought that impoetic was scum and slipped by reading herself as scum? Like would scum

ever

accidentally write that they're scum-aligned in a readslist? Why do you think that Dewy could genuinely believe in it as a possible scumslip?

Multiple people hopped on that.
I will agree it was bad.
I fail to see how it's scum, and even if I thought it was scummy I'd tend to peg the sheepers of derp logic over the presenters of derp logic - it's how they tend to flip I find.

[Dewy]

Sorry, IRL has been just awful lately and not getting much better.

@Zyf

In other words preventing GuiltyLion from receiving the pressure of an L-2 wagon

Looking at you too, frog.

I wasn’t stating intent to hammer because I hadn’t developed a solid scum read on him. I was telling you guys what I thought about the wagon. There wasn’t a point in continuing the pressure because there isn’t any way GL could have answered the questions we addressed to Silver because GL isn’t silver.

If you had the same problem with frog, why did you address it in your "case" on me?

Why is the GN slot scummy? What makes Mala scummy? Why are they on the same line rather than separated like everyone else?

I have a hard time explaining my reads regardless of alignment. The reasons for my reads are usually in my posts prior to the reads list.
The GN slot was scummy because of their inconsistency.
Mala is scummy because she replaced into GN’s slot.
Not sure if I’m interpreting your third question correctly, but I put them in the same line because Mala replaced GN.

What moved Pkm to null? There's been no change in terms of Pkm's content. Is it because the wagon doesn't have the pressure you wanted it to?

My read on him was pretty much null - null leaning scum. If he hadn’t replaced out, we would have gotten answers from him. With that, I would be able to develop and more solid read on him. Given the circumstances, I will reread during the night phase and develop a more solid read on him.

What moved Poetic down to null for you? If anything I've been getting some more town vibes from them than before.
I didn’t like how she jump to vote me after you did. I didn’t like how she said “recently” which is imply that she had a scum read on me for some time, but she didn’t bring it up. Instead, she waited for you to bring it up before she decided to bring it up herself.

You see, your reads lists like this weren't a problem before, but now they feel like they're changing to conform the majority town thoughts even if that goes against logic as far as content between reads lists go.

What do you mean by confirming to the majority of town thoughts? Can you give examples?

[Dewy]

@Zyf

Spoiler: Here I will prove how your case on me sucks

For the most part she asks obvious questions]

Keep this in mind-they want a GN lynch more than a Pkm lynch; they do not push a GN lynch whatsoever.

I have been pushing GN. I’ve said multiple times that GN is scum.

"Blue as in VT?"-Pushing terminology is fine but instead of pushing why Impoetic reverted to different terminology Dewy simply asks for clarification on something that's pretty clear.

It wasn’t clear to me….how is asking for clarification scummy? If anything, it’s NAI.

And then this ambiguous statement: A scumslip is anything that's a scum claim? Duh, that's like saying, a keyboard is a board that uses keys to type stuff on a computer. It's something we all know. Mind you that this never goes anywhere.

How does this suggest that I’m scum? It doesn’t.
This is basically just me defining something.

Silver needs to get in here and respond what we asked him.

Thank you, captain obvious.

Again, this point is also NAI.

No lolhammers please.

Yes, this has been VERY clearly established by frog and I. Hey wait a second.

You again try to push me with something that’s NAI. At that post, had not caught-up with who said what. I just wanted to make sure that Silver wasn’t lynched before he had a chance to respond.

If dewy flips scum FROG is #1 scum partner

Where is this association coming from?

Rather than push the GN lynch Dewy "wanted" so bad, they try to get mala on the silver wagon (which they aren't even on, by the way). Neither slot has included any new content since the last pushes.

Asking for other players thoughts on a particular wagon isn’t pushing that particular wagon. Again this point is NAI.

I think the wagon on silver was mostly to pressure him to answer us, rather than to actually get him lynched.

Diffuses wagon they were never on here. Mixes well with frog's attitude.
Again.

I didn’t diffuse this wagon. There wasn’t any point in pressuring GL for answers that he can’t provide.
Iirc, you also agreed with my statement in 563.

@All recent replacements

Please catch-up asap. The day is really soon.

They push a catch-up, say the day is ending soon.
AKA "Slap your vote down I need it to mix in because my initial wagon's now gone"
It also doesn't provide any new sentiments that would be a revelation to the replacements. They know they need to catch up.

Oooooo, another NAI statement.
Me telling the replacements to catch-up is scummy now…..what has the world become?

Your entire “case” doesn’t have a single dewy scumtell. Everything you brought up was NAI.

P-edit: I'll read it later. Right now I have 5 pages to read.

[Dewy]

I'm pretty sure that I already responded to this, but I'll do it again just in case.

Also, Dewy, I don't see how my vote looks opportunistic or scummy (enough for a vote on someone who wasn't being voted previously when we have little time left).

Your vote on me was opportunistic because you scum read me for sometime and waited for some else to push me. You didn’t want to deal with the consequences of pushing a ml, so you waited for someone else to push me so that they would have to deal with the consequences instead of you.

For one thing, if I were mafia, I'd have any number of votes to pick out of for the same 2-vote outcome without drawing attention to the fact that I was sort of sheeping. What's special about Zyf that I should wait for him to vote someone NEW and then follow that?

I’m not liking the line “If I were mafia.” It just adds WIFOM of whether or not you are scum. The second question is answered in my answer above. "Your vote on me was opportunistic because you scum read me for some time and waited for some else to push me. You didn’t want to deal with the consequences of pushing a ml, so you waited for someone else to push me so that they would have to deal with the consequences instead of you.”

[Dewy]

The fact that their content /declined/ to primarily noise when they were asking some good questions and pushing in early game is what bothers me. I /could/ chock it up to real life stress/requirements, but rather than asking people questions about what they think, they just--parrot where they weren't before.
I've found that scum is the first to decline in level of play due to sustained lying, leading them to slip away into the cover of blending in. This definitely doesn't mean that all scum do it (I certainly didn't in Lightning), it just means I think they're more likely to do it if it happens.

Sorry that my life sucks atm?
Also, I'm lazy, so didn't bother to write stuff down and compile it to avoid repeats, my bad. The "parroting" wasn't intentional. Idk how many times I've said this....
Not a single post where I lied...so not seeing your second point.

[Dewy]

How can you think that a town Dewy genuinely thought that impoetic was scum and slipped by reading herself as scum? Like would scum

ever

accidentally write that they're scum-aligned in a readslist? Why do you think that Dewy could genuinely believe in it as a possible scumslip?

You know, this is why it's called a scum-

slip

.

[Dewy]

Don't like reed's fencesitting on my wagon.

Eh I was almost back to thinking one of scum was in {impo, zyf} due to their repeated back and forth and zyf's lackluster casing of Dewy, but I'll concede I haven't read the full of the thread yet due to weekend duties + work today. I'm not in the game as much as I should be today. Hangover central.

Taking it to L1

VOTE: Dewy

Don't exactly remember, but I think you debunked Zyf's crappy case on me before this...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: frog

Prefer this.

I'll get to responding to everyone later.

Then you say you like a frog lynch more.

VOTE: Dewy

Back to L1

.

Then you hope on my wagon again.

UNVOTE:

I'm really not liking this right now.

@Dewy I'm pretty sure Impoetic is just lost town.

Then you hop off my wagon.


P-edit: Thor's vote on GN was RVS. Your's wasn't.


Sucks that I can't vote you both.

[Dewy]

Dewy, you've been scum before.

Have you ever been in the process of writing a post and included yourself as scum in your readslist?

Obviously not, because I didn't slip.

[Dewy]

Dewy, you've been scum before.

Have you ever been in the process of writing a post and included yourself as scum in your readslist?

Obviously not, because I didn't slip.

You know what I'm getting at. You've never done it because

it's a stupid thing to do that no one would ever do

How could you think that scum!Impoetic would write themselves as scum like that accidentally? Why would scum ever write that they're scum while drafting a readslist (outside of WIFOM - which is expressly not the charge you brought here). I am legitimately shocked that you're continuing to assert that this is a Thing That Could Happen.

Tbh poetic cleared it up for me when she said that it was more of a joke post.

My vote on her was pressure to answer for her actions... people seem to have taken it differently...


I apparently suck at creating reaction tests.

@Poetic:
Tbh, you aren't a null read. You're one of my lower townreads

Forgot to mention this in 741.
VOTE: JaeReed


P-edit like x100: I just want to post this =.=

[Dewy]

Yup, Dewy. Strange that. It's almost like I'm not sure what you might flip and don't want to force a claim when I feel like there's been opportunism around your wagon, yet am acutely aware that we are running out of time.

This is what I hate about my wagon. It just feels like a end of the day panic wagon and people have their minds clouded with panic.

[Dewy]

My vote on her was pressure to answer for her actions... people seem to have taken it differently...


I apparently suck at creating reaction tests.

but that's not what you said in 542

Dewy pointing out your "scum-slip" pings me majorly. Generally scum like to justify their votes with scum-slips that aren't really slips, so that when someone flips town they can fall back on that. Zyf's reaction to it was better (especially since it was following Dewy pointing it out, so he's already influenced by that). Your list having you in the scum pile in context was meant to be an obvious chuck off at your reads not matching LQ's (since you went with the "my reads are the antithesis of yours" comment).

I interpreted it differently because

I thought it was a genuine scum-slip where poetic forgot that she shouldn't be scumreading herself

. It cleared up after she clarified it, so it was a misunderstanding on my part.


On another note, how was my reaction different from Zyf's reaction?

Why are you now saying it was a reaction test?

Erghhhh... that's not what I meant by the reaction test. Reaction test is was supposed to be me calling impoetic on the second vote. Clearly, the reaction test blew-up in front of my face.

[Dewy]

Yup, Dewy. Strange that. It's almost like I'm not sure what you might flip and don't want to force a claim when I feel like there's been opportunism around your wagon, yet am acutely aware that we are running out of time.

This is what I hate about my wagon. It just feels like a end of the day panic wagon and people have their minds clouded with panic.

Is this how you talk to someone you're supposedly scumreading? (As I can only infer from your vote on me)

I quoted that because although it's something you said, it applied to everyone.

[Dewy]

I don't think you get it dewy.
The problem is that not only is almost ALL your content unhelpful, a substantial portion of it is even /parroting/.
You also conveniently decide to not defend yourself on your magically conforming reads

No, I don't get it.
This is literally just a end of the day panic wagon.

Re, reads: specifically, reads were "magically conforming"? Your last case on me was utter garbage.

@Reed

I think you miss-read 760.

You again continue to fence sit.

[Dewy]

Claim.

Literally a complete sitting duck unless there's a doc....

[Thor665]

VOTE: Thor

Please don't, that kill is such non-anything. It was just what scum was going to do regardless of who scum was.

I think LQ, Mala, and off chance Impoetic are my current thoughts.

Impoetic seems rather unlikely for the scum slip move - which was the first real push Dewy went on.
He kind of sat on Mala all day as the side vote of choice - maybe it was an elaborate distance, but...eh.

Vote: LicketyQuickety

Let's do this, if I'm wrong you can lynch me tomorrow if you still want to take townreading Dewy as claiming scum for some derp reason, and then I'd advocate Mala afterwards.

I'd advocate taking Mala and Imp as confirmed town, and Guilty as almost so, and JaReed as a distant fourth.

[Thor665]

It's not the night kill that is prompting JaeReed to vote you, Thor. Also, that player-alignment exploration you've got going there looks rather confused.

What's confused about it, and why are you voting me?

[Thor665]

Extending semi-v/la through August 5th, will maintain as I have been, probably posting once a day, but might do occasional 24+ hour away spells.

[Thor665]

Vote: LicketyQuickety

@Mod
Vote: LicketyQuickety

[Thor665]

We have two people voting me, and two people indicating willingness/desire to vote me and it's a page into the day.
This is obvious.

[Thor665]

If that's true, I should have been lynched yesterday - but keep selling that scum story.

[Thor665]

I agree, my lynch would have been a town one...thanks?

[Thor665]

I agree, my lynch would have been a town one...thanks?

Not what I was saying and you know that I think. You first assumed I was Scum reading you when I said people want to vote you because you are pushing a lynch that most people read as Town. You said I was Scum reading you for this, but I didn't explicitly state that. This can be interpreted as an admission of guilt in some respects. You then say that I am saying that would make you a Town lynch which would be a non-sequitur.

I didn't say you were scum reading me for that, nor is saying that if we had lynched me yesterday that I would flip town a non-sequitor when you were talking about the lynch yesterday.

@Thor I'm voting you due to associative tells. Mainly, that you never bus. You wanna have that trust tell, you gotta live with the consequences.

1. It's not a trust tell, and I'm already sick and tired of people taking 'I think bussing is bad scum strategy' to equate to a trust tell.

2. What are the associative tells? Because it sounds like you're saying 'Thor doesn't bus, he didn't bus Dewy, ergo Thor is scum' The thing is, if Pkm had been scum, the same case would hold up - which suggests it's a bad case. I defend town reads as town - that's also a valid Thor meta tell. Are you seriously suggesting that every single game that has a scum lynch that I'm not voting equates to a valid Thor lynch the next Day? Because that is really silly, and an unfair value call to obligate me to live up to - town can be wrong, town are actually wrong a lot, that is the game.

[Thor665]

What did you mean by this then:

If that's true, I should have been lynched yesterday -

but keep selling that scum story.

I meant that you were scum and misrepresenting what was happening in thread.

You can tell because I say "if that's true" and present what should have happened - showing that it wasn't true.
Also I called you scum selling a story.

[Thor665]

1. Bussing is always a bad strat especially in a newbie. There are a lot of people who are uncomfortable with it. My point is that you make a point of never doing it and the associative tells lead toward you.

I agree that bussing is a bad strategy. I also agree I don't play badly. That fails to make it a trust tell.

2. The townread on Dewy for contrived reasonings basically. I get that town can be wrong, but think of it this way. You said that beside you the next lynch would be Mala... GL already suggested this! We already seemed to agree on this on D1. I would bet the game on Impo being town. I'm town. GL is likely town and frog is likely town. So from my POV we lynch outside my current townreads. You, Mala, then LQ if it goes that far. Is there a really good reason it shouldn't be you first?

What was contrived? That's just a buzzword - I explained my reasoning specifically, be specific if you can - or accept that this is an empty case.

I would rather it be LQ first since he's far more likely scum, but if your case is just PoE why not, y'know, lynch the guy who looks like scum rather than the lazy "oh, hey, 'associatives, that's a buzzword' case"? I feel like you're making my point for me right now, while also claiming I should be lynched. You're being silly. Vote scum reads, not random PoE reads. If you PoE, vote best case within the PoE - this is basic stuff.

[Thor665]

Like, we can agree the bussing thing isn't a valid tell.
At that point the case on me is "associatives"

Describe any that aren't bussing.

Because all you've managed is "contrived read". That's just the same thing, it's an empty word with no meat.
Then look at my LQ case.
Then vote LQ.

[Thor665]

you know as well as I, if not should know more so, that Town doesn't even come close to doing what they should do most of the time so your point is moot. You still have yet to provide a case on me that is not based on misconception if that.

I have exactly presented a case on you, and you have actually agreed that you misunderstood me when you attacked me - the only difference is I think you intentionally "misunderstood" me (aka misrepped me) and you want the story to be you're town and it was an innocent gaff.

Innocent gaffs don't require ten pages of debate to realize you may have misread something.
Misreps *DO*.

[Thor665]

Like, I forget the player off the top of my head, but someone else did the exact same "misunderstanding".
Within two exchanges they basically understood my stance and could see that it wasn't a particularly valid point.
They still defended your stance, because they made the same error, but they failed to grasp that their ability to spot the error so quickly and your inability to do the same, while debating with the same person making the same arguments - suggests some sort of major difference between the two of you (hint: alignment)

[Thor665]

Describe the case on me.
I'll wait.

[Thor665]

buzzword
noun informal
a word or phrase, often an item of jargon, that is fashionable at a particular time or in a particular context.

contrived
adjective
deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.

Don't think "contrived" is a buzzword, tbh.

Oh sweet Jesus

Eh, besides that... You had really flimsy reasoning to townread Dewy and you were actually here for the whole game. How's that?

Well, okay, let's talk about that.
As a start - why was my read "flimsy"?
I described the read.
I don't agree that it was flimsy.
What makes the read flimsy, so I can explain how it isn't?

LQ is my strongest townread. Has been since the start. Voting him would be POE. Voting you over Mala due to associates with the Dewy slot being stronger is a little different.

What are the associatives?
Stop using the word without explaining them.
This is why the case is empty and doesn't exist.

You're not even trying to see this from the POV of the person you're trying to bargain with.

Because a townread on LQ seems insane to me it never occurred to me that was your top town read.
I guess if that's reality you are voting in the right place for you, but I weep at that read.

[Thor665]

I have looked at it.
I have given you my rebuttal.

Did you?
Did I rebut your rebuttal? Because I can't imagine I wouldn't have.
Link to the rebuttal?

[Thor665]

It should be pretty obvious that you're being voted, Thor, because you seem to be the most likely candidate for Dewy's scumpartner. Of your meta that I have read, I recall a private topic in which you state that bussing is on the decline for partners and that you tend not to do that. With that admission, and your odd townread of Dewy, the case is pretty solid. I say odd townread, because it appeared to centre on regarding Dewy as new, but she was, in fact, an SE, and you were scumreading other players over obviously newby things anyway.

An SE requirement is, what, 3 games?
If you want to claim that removes all newbie energy - feel free.
I disagree with you.

I can read why you think they're scummy, but why are they scummy and Dewy's partner?

Avoidance of comment on wagon, and avoidance of attacks on each other, or really any meaningful interaction at all - which Dewy had with basically every other slot in the game.

are you pr? because I know this is confirmation bias speaking but if you're not pr i'm like 10000% voting you today, especially after this entrance. I can't imagine this would be your approach as town atm

Well, since there are assuredly no other investigative PRs, I'm not sure what your pause is about, nor your issue with my approach.
You should vote me.

[Thor665]

uhh, because FIRST OF ALL there are always at least 2 PRs and I'm having trouble retaining the table in my head for a long time but I mean... why would I want to risk derphammering a potential PR -- especially when their status might explain a post I SR'd? :T

My presumption is you're scumreading thepost because, for some reason, you're implying I need investigations to draw the conclusions I did - even though I explained my conclusions.
But there are never double investigatives.
So...

Anyway, I thought your entrance was most definitely putting self-preservation and wifom before finding scum. I don't see why you'd agree to be lynched if you were wrong instead of simply allowing yourself to be lynched first

That might make sense if I thought lynching town made sense.
I am openly on record all over the place saying anyone who doesn't fight their lynch as town - is playing badly.

Also, the line about how it could be an elaborate distance stunt is A) not in line with the attitude I've perceived from you so far when it comes to scumhunting and B) not in line with how you seemed to perceive Dewy prior at all to the extent that I'm not sure the flip would spur you to say it genuinely godthatsentencewasincomprehensible.jpg

I don't really get this - but I would note I indicated lack of belief in the distancing scheme - does that clarify me?

[Thor665]

I caught up, but don't really have much to comment on, I think Impoetic/Jae/Lickety basically have it covered. I'm like fractionally worried Jae is strong scum but that's a question that can sit on the back-burner for now. I generally agree with the thread vibe that Thor is more interested in preventing his lynch than showing us who is scum instead of him. I'm not at all interested in a Lickety lynch today.

This does kind of ignore that my posting opened up with presenting my reads, and only *after* people started attacking did I spend any time at all debunking their cases.

How can you think that a town Dewy genuinely thought that impoetic was scum and slipped by reading herself as scum? Like would scum

ever

accidentally write that they're scum-aligned in a readslist? Why do you think that Dewy could genuinely believe in it as a possible scumslip?

Thor did you ever answer this?

Yes, I did.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8136242

I guess I should have followed up before day end but the problem wasn't that it was "derp logic", it's that there was really no logic at all.

And it was "no logic" that *multiple* players followed.
They aren't all scum.
Just saying.

are you pr? because I know this is confirmation bias speaking but if you're not pr i'm like 10000% voting you today, especially after this entrance. I can't imagine this would be your approach as town atm

Well, since there are assuredly no other investigative PRs, I'm not sure what your pause is about, nor your issue with my approach.

I mean, what Impoetic means is pretty obvious here and Thor's acting as if he legitimately has no idea what she is talking about.

I am actually addressing her with the only logical thing she could mean - she implied my conclusions came out of nowhere.
The only way a PR could justify conclusions coming out of nowhere is to be investigative.
What, am I a Doc with magical insight into other player's roles and an inability to protect the proven town Tracker? Or a BP who the mod told me who shot at me, and then killed Zyf anyway? Please.

[Thor665]

I am actually addressing her with the only logical thing she could mean - she implied my conclusions came out of nowhere.
The only way a PR could justify conclusions coming out of nowhere is to be investigative.
What, am I a Doc with magical insight into other player's roles and an inability to protect the proven town Tracker? Or a BP who the mod told me who shot at me, and then killed Zyf anyway? Please.

She wanted you to claim in case you were doc/bp.... Asking about a claim has nothing to do with your reads at this stage.

Put me at L-1 and get a hammer intent then.

[Thor665]

This town is so blind it's painful.

[Thor665]

Prodding GuiltyLion, Malakittens, and Thor665.

It's why I declared a v/la last weekend.

I haven't read much other than just this page to see if I was replaced since the Mod had sent me a prod.
I have other games to catch up on, so if I can skip these pages that will be fine with me

Claim: VT - hammer away

Last thoughts;

1. Town is being SILLY blind right now.
2. There isn't a case on me besides "Thor don't bus, and Thor protected Dewy"
3. This rather blindly ignores that I also strong defended Pkm - is he also my scumbuddy? Yeah...this case is bad.
4. LQhas a very valid case on him as presented by me - after my flip please go read it again.
5. After my flip go read the case again - I'm repeating this because people who are lynched/killed often have their reads ignored - don't make me mock yu from the Dead QT.
6. Now note the relationship between LQ and Dewy - or rather the lack thereof. Look at the other people Dewy didn't communicate with (Hint: no one remotely like with LQ)
7. Now note how much info/opinion LQ the (silly) town read of so many of you has actually offered on any player besides me (and note his reaction [lack thereof] to the Dewy wagon)
8. Then lynch LQ. Lynch him dead. Swear to this.

That's me.
You're all kind of silly, but just lynch LQ next and I'll (mostly) forgive you
Swear to gawd though, if you derp lynch someone after me, you are ll going to be told repeatedly how dumb you are.

Peace out.

[Thor665]

Hope Thor's ok. Looks like he hasn't been on the site for a while.

I declared v/la!
Is everything I say being blocked to people? It's why I'm being lynched, no one is paying attention.
READ!

[Dewy]

GG everyone!

Still suck at being scum. :p

[Thor665]

Sorry Thor, I was going for the easy win here. I know it was lazy but this was a good game to break up my string of losses I've been having recently. I think given a bit more time you might have been able to distance effectively, but it was just unfortunate that your partner was correctly lynched D1 along with a lot of the rest of town making themselves obvious. This was a rough game for mafia.

No worries at all - though I still think the Dewy case was silly

I do think the town players on average had substandard cases, but above average town play - and at the end of the day since I think almost no cases are good ever, that is actually the better way to play as town. My advice to the town in general is that you probably do need to think about your cases more, if I'd been the scum i was about five years ago I think I would have streamrolled this town (of course it was a different site meta back then...so if you'd *been* the town from five years ago...::black hole forms::) But what was really excellent was that you did the following, and this is something SO MANY town screw up.

1. You identified town reads.
2. You cooperated with town reads.

I mean, dear gawd, how revolutionary, right? But so many towns fail to manage #2 (and some whiff #1...but sometimes that's more other players' faults) but, darn it all, #2 is amazing, and that's what this town actually did really well - you should keep doing that.