Newbie 1412 - GAME OVER
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mastin2 The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- Posts: 14413
- Joined: October 8, 2009
- Location: Replacement Alley
Hey, guys, just saying I haven't forgotten about you. As the IC, I feel obligated to give you a post-game write-up. It'll have thoughts on the game itself, thoughts on the theory of the game, and thoughts about every player. (Including myself, to demonstrate the flaws and strengths in my own play so that you can better understand all players.)
Unfortunately, this will take a bit of time to type, and won't be done until Monday. (Ah, fitting for this game. That the notes would be delayed. ) I ask that you stay around long enough for me to type them up, after which, you can disperse to the eight winds of mafiascum.net.My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!-
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Bulbazak Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 10712
- Joined: November 18, 2012
- Location: Thataway, Thataway, Betwixt the Presidents
Sorry about all that, Mastin. You really had me paranoid this game.Bulbazak is so town that everytime someone votes him Mastin coughs blood.- Nachomamma8, Maniacal Street Mafia
V/LA during weekends. Now leave me alone!-
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Sakura Hana She/HerSurvivorShe/Her
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 27751
- Joined: April 17, 2013
- Pronoun: She/Her
- Location: In the Magical World of Anime
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phokdapolees Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2607
- Joined: June 25, 2013
- Location: The Precinct
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Hanasawa Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 192
- Joined: July 26, 2013
- Location: Australia
Don't watch a game because of me. 23 games and still not a single one I'm satisfied with at all.
Bulb really gave me the shits though when he first came in, Tamuz to a certain aspect but hey. A win is a win. No matter what you did."It hurts to have control over anything. I'd rather be a leaf in the wind."
Call me Lily instead. Avatar is Bellossom from Pokemon! drawn by Ether.
Espeonage (08:39) - lily is happy = everything is good with the world-
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Tamuz Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2807
- Joined: March 20, 2005
- Location: Seattle, Washington State
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Tamuz Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2807
- Joined: March 20, 2005
- Location: Seattle, Washington State
Full disclosure I caught up on this game drinking (cause I'm Tamuz). I caught the hodge scummery as my fleshed hodge attack post notes, but I had him linked on Karnage. By the time the counterclaim appeared in my read I was really drunk and didn't care to really read or think it through, so I voted Karnage in 260.
I basically realized I was wrong upon waking up in 272, but figured the best move to keep myself alive is to say fuck it and stick to my gun... the rare time I've had to maintain a lie as a town, but it happened and worked. I can only imaging if I flipped to Marquis I'd have been an easy lynch, instead of a reluctant one. Obviously from there I pushed my hodge case, even pushing Marquis + hodge despite voting Karnage. Not my best game, but denying care about reads on me and chasing my read worked nicely.
Hanasawa was vanilla; You were town, and clear town. It worked here with counterclaims and strong egos, but the ability to find scum wasn't demonstrated
Smurf... he flirted with anti-town measures, pushing ideas that weren't based on facts D4, but he accepted his faulty memory, making me feel nice about him. Less obv town then Hana, but also empty of decisive scum hunting.
Bulb. I don't even know where to go with talking about Bulb. I'm glad I read you correctly, but man, your level of douchery I can see coming from scum so easily. We won, yay, but you need to scumhunt with your other head.
Mastin is mastin. If you do want specific comments on any aspects, axe, but you're too prolific.
Karnage, I felt you were too reliant on your power role to save you. Other than the split of you or Marquis you didn't scumhunt, you didn't try, you acted like a cop... You weren't. We won despite that, but a power role is no reason to give up the real town power of your brain.
hodge; I burnt you, hard. I'd love to see the night actions, but to succeed I think you needed to not actually bandy with me and instead completely discount me. You let me push you around.. gotta ignore me and deflect or address it and attack me for another reason. You instead addressed my issues and quieted up. That won't work too well when your partner bones themself early. I think in this game if you went hard on bulb D3 for his emotion, settling on a mastin lynch then pushing a bulb-or-tam lynch D4 then pushed a LyLo of hodge-[tam,bulb]-smurf you'd have had the best chance. Quietness during D3 allowed me to get a tam v hodge D4 which was exactly what I needed.Tamuz is the expression of the alienated, of the ambitious, of the dispossessed.-
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Hanasawa Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 192
- Joined: July 26, 2013
- Location: Australia
Let's see if I can get into the mentality of what I was doing...
Early in this game, I was trying to go for a play of someone I knew. It was essentially catching out contradictions in roles and vote analysis. Scum hunting to him was a useless thing and I could sort of see where he's coming from when I played my other 21 other games but that's more than likely because people I played with in general did not know how to scum hunt and I didn't know how to and still currently don't know how to. Personally, I saw an approach to that D1 was not that great and I didn't really do much either. Later in the game, busy with life, I didn't even put much thought into anything past D1, forgot totally about how I was going to focus my play on that and it probably showed.
Agreed with Tamuz about egos being pushed around here made it much easier to look town just by being level-headed but it's like every other game where I'm too afraid that saying anything more to get anything productive done. I felt like I couldn't say anything on hodge without rehashing everything that has already been said and that freaked me out a lot. I thought it would be easier to town read people and PoE from there but the Bulb v Tamuz clash and Smurf not doing much made that REALLY hard. That's just all I felt really...well, at least from what I remember."It hurts to have control over anything. I'd rather be a leaf in the wind."
Call me Lily instead. Avatar is Bellossom from Pokemon! drawn by Ether.
Espeonage (08:39) - lily is happy = everything is good with the world-
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jmo16mla Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5335
- Joined: September 24, 2012
- Location: Louisiana
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mastin2 The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- Posts: 14413
- Joined: October 8, 2009
- Location: Replacement Alley
First off, a general note about the speed of the game--once again, a reminder that games going this abysmally slow isnotthe norm here on MS.net. Even in 9-player games, you typically have people (including the mod) posting at least once every two days, and frequently much more than that--a rate of one or two pages per real day is far more typical. Which means that if this were a normal game, it'd either have been over in less than a month (all the events transpiring at a faster rate), or it'd have nearly double this number of pages. I as the IC hold a large amount of fault for that (apologies), as I'll be explaining later, but do recognize that this game is the abnormality, and not the norm.
If you think this game dragged on...that's because it did. Everyone got a bit apathetic, everyone got a bit lazy, everyone procrastinated, everyone kinda had to force themselves to so much as post in here during a large portion of the game, and even Amrun our mod showed those same tendencies. In future games, I recommend doing everything possible to avert that, because while this game was ultimately a town win, it's not a fun environment to be in and is incredibly advantageous to the scum. In short, I highly recommend of all players to be much, MUCH more proactive than they were, here, posting a minimum of once every day whenever possible, preferably much more, and with much more content.
Next up, the players.My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!-
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mastin2 The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- Posts: 14413
- Joined: October 8, 2009
- Location: Replacement Alley
phokdapolees:You need to push harder and with more confidence. :P You might not have had it, hence the many changes in "RVS" votes, but you needed it. A little confidence goes a long way in making you charismatic to others, which will not only help avert your lynch, but help you get stronger reads as well. As to how to get stronger reads--your approach was actually fairly decent, but needs some tweaking. Instead of multiple 'random' votes, pressure multiple players early-on for legitimate (albeit weak) reasons and have your vote on the player you feel strongest about.
This process allows you to get the reads, to get the game rolling and get out of the RVS much faster, and at the same time, won't make you D1 mislynch bait. :P From there, out of the RVS, don't drop your RVS pushes. Follow through on them and write up conclusions. If someone you pushed hard had a town reaction, say that. If someone you pushed had a scummy reaction, say that, too. And push it with vigor.
In other words, you're actually on the right track. You just need the slightest tweaking to your technique, and then you'll be good.
Smurf Ninja Fan:You need to be more active. You seem to have a decently-good intuition when you apply it, but you actually need to apply it. :P My advice to be proactive mainly applies to you more than most. You may be used to lurking, but that will hinder your ability here on MS.net. Yeah, you shouldn't be posting for the sake of posting; your posts should have purpose. But you need to actually BE posting. :P That's about all the advice I can give you. Your approach to the game seems good. Your scumhunting seems fine. Your logic seems good. All you really need is to apply them all consistently with some degree of activity.
Tamuz:Aside from not getting emotional about Bulbazak (despite having basically every possible reason to justifiably be ticked off about him :P), I don't really think I have much advice to give ya. You know your stuff. You have a sharp game. You're a strong player with a lot of experience, who knows what they're doing and how to handle themselves. You had a solid composition this game, and have a great deal of skill. Well-done all around.
hodge:Well, without the mafia QT, I'm not able to get the full picture, but honestly, even if I had it, I'm not sure how much help I would be for you. Your scumgame was actually decently solid. You did an awesome job of being pro-town on day one, being both active and reasonable, with solid posting that made you one of the strongest townreads of everyone throughout the game. My main piece of advice, then, would be to try and replicate your success on D1 in later days, and to continue to bring that pro-town appearance to later days. One of the main ways you slipped was with inconsistent stances. While town players do in fact contradict themselves all the time, their contradictions tend to be far more natural.
So I guess my advice is to check your posting to see if the evolution of things (that, I believe, is now basically called the "trajectory" of your reads) makes sense and feels organic. If it feels like your reads are broken and disjointed, then you're going to get in trouble; if your reads feel natural and there is a logical progression in them, then BAM, you've nailed it.
The other thing is, of course, to keep your activity level up. You were one of the main posters on the first days--by the end of the game, you were basically a non-entity. If you had applied yourself consistently throughout the game, then you could have gained an incredible amount of towncred, and averted being caught in the lynch. That's another piece of advice I have--towards the end, you kind-of gave off the aura of defeat, in that you didn't think you could fight your way out of the noose. If that's true, take my word for it: you can fight your way out of ANY scenario, no matter how ridiculously low you think your chances are. You might not always succeed, but you have a better chance of winning by trying than you do of winning when giving up. :P
Bulbazak:I really do hope this is a humbling experience for you. Yeah. You pushed both Marquis and hodge--but it'd be sheer arrogance and ignorance to assume that made your play this game good. Every single one of your stronger pushes was on town. You strongly pushed for the last-minute phok mislynch. You strongly pushed for my mislynch. You strongly pushed for Tamuz's would-be mislynch.
Yeah, you had them as scum. But you didn't push them as scum, at least, not as strongly as you pushed town. Phok can be forgiven, because of the deadline and Marquis's claim. But you were the ONLY player here who refused to accept that I could be town. You were the ONLY player here who stubbornly refused to look into a day after I would flip town, hindering your performance. You were the ONLY player here who had Tamuz as scum, holding stubbornly onto a dead read when everyone else had universally figured out Tamuz was town.
You might have good reads and good pushes. But you can't be this, bluntly, much of an ass. Because that's exactly what you were this game--an stubborn bastard. :P
There's a difference between being confident in a read and arrogantly refusing to give up on a read. If you can learn the difference, you'll be a much stronger player. (Basically, this article is for you. :P)
Marquis:Honestly don't have a lot of advice to you, given how briefly you were in the game. Don't fall into common scum tactics, don't claim a role which you know will get you lynched, don't contradict yourself, and that's about it. :P
Karnage:If you return, I'd love to see you continuing to play. You were a solid town player, showing reason throughout the game and decently-strong logic. Your jailkeep targets were all good, and you weren't as stubborn as Bulbazak was. :P
Last but not least...
Hanasawa:I know I owe you the mother of all IC lectures, but honestly, I don't have the material I need to get things strongly down. My main piece of advice, though, is simple--don't give up on playing the game. You might think you suck now...but being aware of your weakness as a player is the first step in becoming a stronger player. I used to be a weak player. I was a weak player in all of 2009. It wasn't until 2011 that I became so much as mediocre at the game, and even then, that was only after a LOT of hard work (~40 games) and hydra'ing with someone who helped refine my play. (Nachomamma8.) In other words...everything you see about me was created through sheer force of will, with a TON of time and effort put into improving myself. I sucked. I knew I sucked. So...I worked as hard as I could to NOT suck.
You could be the next me if you let yourself be. By which, I mean...you can become a solid player if you apply your skills well. Analyze your play. Look at what you did right! Look at what you do well. Maximize those. Look at what you did poorly. Work to improve those elements of your play!
If you need help gaining charisma, this quote is a good starting point.
For more advanced reading, my article here basically covers the entirety of the subject in more detail. If people like you and you have a charm, then they'll be less likely to mislynch you and more likely to follow what you're trying to do.Socialize! wrote:Be friendly/polite, and see things from the other point of view. Though this slightly conflicts with being concise, knowing when to be direct and when to be indirect can make all the difference. Often, Bluntly saying "you're scum" doesn't work as well as "I'm confident you're scum for this," and presenting it.
Strong-arm Arrogance works really well short-term, but it's self-destructive in the long-term; you need to negotiate/persuade, not threaten and force.
If your problem is with accuracy, let me point to your vote history. You voted hodge, you unvoted me, you voted Marquis, your vote on phok was only out of desperation...seriously. You don't need as much help there as you think you do. :P You're already naturally a strong player.Trust yourself! You have good reads. You have good reasoning behind them. You're a sensible, reasonable, decently-logical player, whose accuracy is better than average. You know when not to back down and when you need to reconsider, so stop doubting your abilities. :P
I believe I said this in-game, but you have the opposite problem as Bulbazak. Whereas he has too much confidence (arrogance), you don't have enough. If you can conquer your self-doubt, if you can get into the mindset that you're not that bad, then you will be able to improve by miles. (That said, don't go TOO far and become Bulbazak. :P Knowing your play isn't perfect is the only way you're capable of improving.)
Like many others, one of my main tips is to be more active. You said that you were once known as being aggressive, and this game were scaling it back to be more passive. Once again, I'd recommend reincorporating some of that aggression into your play. Being proactive will MASSIVELY help your game, turning you from some guy who's afraid of the mislynch and of mislynching, into a guy who you respect and will work with if town, and fear and try to eliminate if scum.
So please. I'm begging you--stick around. You are not a bad player.
(Part three, in which I reflect on myself, will come in a bit.)My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!-
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mastin2 The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- Posts: 14413
- Joined: October 8, 2009
- Location: Replacement Alley
Now as for me, I owe you all apologies. I set out in this game trying not to teach you to be lemmings, to try and teach you not to be sheep and to think for yourselves. Unfortunately, this happened anyway thanks to the 'follow-the-jailkeeper' mentality, and also had the negative effect of limiting my own play, here. In trying not to take control of you, fearing that doing so would hinder your growths as a player, I stagnated activity, especially given my multiple V/LAs and the mentality of people being waiting for meanyway. In other words, my approach to teaching you backfired horribly.
I feel directly responsible for the lack of activity, because as the IC, leading by example, it was my job to set the standard. And the standard I set was..."well, shit, I'm going V/LA."
...Not...not exactly the shining example you want to give players about mafiascum.net. When it comes to my own play as a player, separate from my teaching, it's a similarly mediocre overview. While not terrible, it was far from stellar. Though I ultimately correctly labeled hodge as the last mafia, and came up with a strategy to help the town win, and had Marquis read as scum via play...that's about all I have to my credit, and even these are weak. It took me too long to get hodge there, and even when he was, I was still 60/40. My strategy wasn't exactly groundbreaking and was mostly implemented already. I didn't follow through on Marquis because I allowed myself to ignore my read and go with the 'follow-the-jailkeeper' strategy.
All while being largely inactive and not giving this game the attention it oh so desperately deserved. While others slacked off and procrastinated, I as the IC and also me as the center of attention should receive the most flak for it, because that's not the kind of standard I should be setting for games. It was a lesson learned, though. ICs join newbies for the same reason newbies do, believe it or not--to improve, to learn from their mistakes, and become a better player. (Not to mention, IC. ) And I've done so.
In general, do as I say, not as I have done.
What I say is typically ideal play. What I actually do is flawed because I struggle with upholding everything I preach. In this game, it was not being proactive, despite advocating proactivity in others. I may be overly harsh on myself (or, not harsh enough ), but again, I have to emphasize the abnormality of this game. If you don't want games to turn out the way this game did (slooooooooooooooooooooooooow), then follow my advice and become proactive.My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!-
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Bulbazak Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 10712
- Joined: November 18, 2012
- Location: Thataway, Thataway, Betwixt the Presidents
One last piece of advice, and only because I disagreed with Mastin on this, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, SELF VOTE. It never turns out well. Some players can get away with it, but most of the time the move will backfire tremendously on you. Mastin's right, circumstances are never so bleak that you can't turn things around. Trust me, I've been able to turn large wagons on me around as both town and scum. Never give up, and never, ever, ever, self vote.Bulbazak is so town that everytime someone votes him Mastin coughs blood.- Nachomamma8, Maniacal Street Mafia
V/LA during weekends. Now leave me alone!-
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mastin2 The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- Posts: 14413
- Joined: October 8, 2009
- Location: Replacement Alley
Oh, certainly. As a general rule, don't self-vote, and as a near-absolute, you can always turn things around. In theory, it has uses as scum, though, to end discussion early. And as town, it CAN be useful--for instance, in this game, I weaponized my mislynch to have Karnage target Bulbazak and by extension, lead to a hodge lynch. And self-votingcan, in theory, get you reactions. But it's in general a Very Bad Idea. So don't do it.My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!-
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Tamuz Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2807
- Joined: March 20, 2005
- Location: Seattle, Washington State
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