[SETUP] Pick the Deck

[Something_Smart]

I like the concept here, and you've already done a good job thwarting a few of my breaking ideas. It does feel like it's not all that different from a C9++ style setup (procedurally generated with a massive number of possible setups, approximating balance but not guaranteeing it), except with a boatload of extra WIFOM. And it seems like balance knowledge is

extremely

valuable for mafia, to the point where if they don't have a mechanics expert, they're liable to mess up or at least not really enjoy the design phase.

(Also, neighbor is a little sad when duplicate roles aren't allowed )

[Something_Smart]

I guess, but I don't think the simple setups are generally the best for scum. Or at least, they're incredibly swingy.

I think weak is probably overvalued because scum know to look for crumbs.

Ninja description mentions watcher, which isn't an available town role. Did you intend for it to be?

Do scum get to assign their chosen PR's to their members or is it random?

[Something_Smart]

2) town knows this, and the constraints in which the mafia designed the setup - I feel like this could lead to interesting dynamics and setup spec? Although I guess it's possible it would just feel gimmicky and WIFOMy, I don't reslly know

Yeah, I feel like outguessing a group of people whose identities you don't even know and who are actively incentivized to trick you seems like a fool's errand. But, still better than closed games that come down to outguessing the mod (this doesn't happen to all closed games, but it's a risk depending on what scum claim).

[Something_Smart]

I think the best gimmicky setup for scum to do that I can think of so far is to throw in a bunch of kill-stopping roles (doctor, rolestopper, jailkeeper, etc) and no investigative power. Even if the town manages to stop a few kills, they get no info from those kills being stopped because they could have been stopped a variety of different ways. We could maybe approximate that to 12:3 mountainous with two kills skipped? Though especially if scum give themselves a roleblocker, even that's a bit optimistic. Scum might also be able to get away with a gated strongman of some kind, depending on the numbers. I would expect that setup to be extremely unpleasant to play as town, even if it's not too scumsided.

[Something_Smart]

i mean, that's true, but i feel like the points system does give town some info to work with?

the killstopping one could be a thing, although i find it hard to imagine scum would want to make themselves, like, basically unable to kill? a full strongman could make it viable?

so, doc + rolestopper + roleblocker + jailkeeper + even night vig vs strongman?

i kind of have a hard time imagining scum choosing to play that? it seems unpleasant for the strongman, but if they have a really strong player i suppose they could make it work

Maybe, they can also run a variety of different kinds of strongmen (novice being probably the best value), along with a backup and/or a roleblocking role of their own. I wouldn't expect killing to be

that

hard; it is a 15 player setup, and by the time it gets down to mini size there's a decent chance at least one PR is dead, even if they aren't hunting them with NK's.

I do agree with RC overall, that you are never going to perfectly balance the points system, so either you allow for some scumsided setups, or you make it so the most scumsided setups are balanced and then scum have to know the exact meta or get rolled.

What if you compromised a bit on the concept, so scum only choose some of the roles, or have a random limited set of roles to choose from? That would prevent there from being objectively optimal options that scum should always do. That goes a little more the way of Haunted Village, which is not balanced either but at least has a more viable concept.

[Something_Smart]

It's not like scum will want to jump into that mechanical PoE w/ a fakeclaim most of the time

Why not? It seems like a pretty standard play for scum to pick 5 town roles, randomly assign 3-5 of them, and claim the others.

[Something_Smart]

Like I said, make the "scumsided" setup. Then when you spend a little longer considering the open nature of that setup, I think the fears of scumsidedness melt away a significant amount.

Okay, sure, I can go through the procedure I had in mind.

We start with 5 possible roles: Doctor, Rolestopper, Jailkeeper, Alien, Roleblocker. Add 10 Vanillas and distribute them randomly to alignments, as if you were randing a setup as a mod.

I did this, and rolled 2 Vanillas and JK for scum. That means town gets doc, rolestopper, alien, and RB, and scum will fakeclaim JK. The only time you'd need to reroll this is if scum gets 3 PR's, so PR claims are ever so slightly above average to be town, at least before any scum flip.

Doc + rolestopper + alien + RB = 28 points, so scum have 8 points for counters. There's a few ways to assign counters, but 1-shot strongman and 2-shot JK seem to work pretty well off the top of my head. Scum really aren't in trouble unless they get down to one member, and even then, two of them have the ability to false-clear themselves if that happens. It's basically impossible to setup spec anyone town, and a blocked kill gains back half a mislim, sure, but it provides 0 info.

And, probably more importantly, this setup would be

miserable

to play as town.

[Something_Smart]

Oh, well that doesn't make any sense, strongman isn't passive.

And I mean miserable for town, not necessarily for scum.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah I think that. Full strongman is a pretty silly role in general.

And I feel like a lot of the time the frustration from not being able to kill someone is tied to having someone you want to kill? With no investigative PR's, that's less of a big deal. Idk I'm not saying every scumteam will pick it, but some might, and then the game won't be fun.

[Something_Smart]

Cop, Weak Gunsmith, 10x Town Neighbor, 3x Mafia Neighbor.

Maybe it's balanced but seems kinda silly and not super fun for town. Neighbor should probably be like -0.5 or something, at least if there's mafia in the hood.

Also, what happens to loyal/weak when a role isn't in one of the listed categories?

[Something_Smart]

If a role isn't in the listed categories it shouldn't be able to be Loyal or Weak, I think? Did I typo something

No, that just wasn't clear from the OP. I could imagine e.g. a weak fruit vendor so I wondered if you had forgotten to list it.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah, I think that makes sense and I agree. I would explicitly list it though, because fruit vendor is not investigative normally.

Also, you don't quite get hard confirmation. If scum are able to guess your target, they can fool you in a way that e.g. a loyal cop can't be fooled.

[Something_Smart]

You could have neighbors be assigned independently of town PR's.