[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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Post Post #8875 (ISO) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:50 pm

Post by BBmolla »

List of the Damned


9 Players

2 1-shot Avoiding Mafia Goons

7 1-shot Avoiding Townies

  • When a player is lynched or night killed, they privately send the mod the name of a player. That player recieves a One-shot Doctor. These can stack.
  • Each night the mafia
    must
    submit a "Kill List" containing every living player in the game. The nightkill will occur on the player at the top of the list.
  • Once per game each player can privately submit
    Avoid
    to the mod. If they are the nightkill target, it will instead pass on to the next person on the list. This can happen any number of times.
  • At the start of each day, the list will be posted.
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Post Post #8876 (ISO) » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:48 am

Post by JasonWazza »

1. What happens if everyone alive avoids (EG. N1)?
2. Can mafia kill themselves?
3. Does the 1-shot doctor rule include the Mafia goons?
4. Can the Mafia do 2 actions in a night? (IE. Submit the list with them second, and doctor themself in the case that first avoids.)
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Post Post #8877 (ISO) » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:17 am

Post by mith »

I would assume the answer to 2 is yes, or they wouldn't have the 1-shot Avoid.

It's a pretty interesting idea. The list gives a lot of information to work with from day 2 on.
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Post Post #8878 (ISO) » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:05 am

Post by BBmolla »

In post 8876, JasonWazza wrote:1. What happens if everyone alive avoids (EG. N1)?
2. Can mafia kill themselves?
3. Does the 1-shot doctor rule include the Mafia goons?
4. Can the Mafia do 2 actions in a night? (IE. Submit the list with them second, and doctor themself in the case that first avoids.)
1. No one dies
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. A goon can avoid, Doctor and night kill all in one night.
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Post Post #8879 (ISO) » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:43 am

Post by Creature »

Jack of all Enables
Rolelist

Town JOAT
Town JOAT
Town JOAT
Town JOAT
Town JOAT
Town JOAT
Town JOAT
Town JOAT

Mafia JOAT Enabler
Mafia JOAT Enabler
Mafia JOAT Enabler


Mechanisms

Town JOAT:
Spoiler:
Every Town JOAT will receive 4 from these abilities (each will be 1-shot):
  • Cop
  • Doctor
  • Vigilante
  • Roleblocker
  • Tracker
  • Watcher
  • Jailkeeper
  • Bodyguard
  • Gunsmith (works with who's using vigilante ability and mafia members)
  • Follower (works with nightkills and the ability being used/enabled)
If they try to use their ability, but fail (either not enabled or roleblocked), it will count as an used ability.


Mafia JOAT Enabler:
Spoiler:
Like Town, Mafia will receive 5 from the abilities above.

Every night, each mafia JOAT should enable one of these abilities, they can't enable the same ability (like two of them enabling vig).

If they don't choose to enable one, a random ability they have will be enabled. Unless they don't have any other ability to enable.[/list]


Win condition:
Town wins when all mafia members are dead.
Mafia wins when the day starts with Mafia => Town.
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Post Post #8880 (ISO) » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:02 am

Post by mith »

I suspect that is very scum-sided if scum have their normal factional kill (not clear from the setup). Not sure if they don't - scum still have the advantage of never wasting their abilities, because they know which ones will be enabled.

I feel like there is an interesting seed of an idea in there somewhere, but it's too much of a crapshoot (in terms of what abilities town has and whether or not they are enabled) for me to be at all interested in actually playing it.
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Post Post #8881 (ISO) » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:06 am

Post by mith »

(I am really starting to think we just need a separate subforum for open setup ideas. On the other hand, I'm not sure what the ideal way to organize it would be; a separate thread for every setup could get overwhelming, and sometimes setups build off each other in ways that should be preserved somehow.)
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Post Post #8882 (ISO) » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:21 pm

Post by Creature »

I agree there should have a separate subforum.
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Post Post #8883 (ISO) » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:11 pm

Post by BBmolla »

I'd be very down to be an open setup subform mod mith

A topic per setup would probably be fine. Then you could run more frequent contests and such.
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Post Post #8884 (ISO) » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:15 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 8883, BBmolla wrote:I'd be very down to be an open setup subform mod mith

A topic per setup would probably be fine. Then you could run more frequent contests and such.
Love this idea.
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Post Post #8885 (ISO) » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:57 am

Post by callforjudgement »

I think it might be worthwhile to have a thread (either this one or one in Open Setups) that people could throw out quick experimental setup ideas in to see if they got shot down, but a forum sounds like a good idea for more "serious" setup ideas. (We could/should probably also do Open Setup reviews in the setup thread rather than in the Open Setup Reviews thread, too, although then we might need some other method to give them visibility. The change is nonetheless a good idea, though, especially as people often miss the purpose of Open Setup Reviews and confuse it with this thread.)
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Post Post #8886 (ISO) » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:39 am

Post by Ircher »

This thread is stickied, the other one isn't.
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Post Post #8887 (ISO) » Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:10 am

Post by callforjudgement »

That's because most posts about Opens should be in this thread.

(The other one's for setups that are about to be run, to get input from the Open listmod and/or other players about whether it's balanced enough to run.)
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Post Post #8888 (ISO) » Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:02 pm

Post by House »

How doable is this idea...?

Colosseum Mafia...

All players are given a 1-shot modified gladiator that turns the loser into a tree stump.

Lynches must be gladiated (votes outside of gladiation do not count). Nightless, scum has day chat.
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Post Post #8889 (ISO) » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:32 pm

Post by JasonWazza »

Well other than the fact that you can run out of shots (assuming the winner is always the person who starts it.)

Also i don't think turning the mafia sided people into tree stumps is ever all that fun (their job basically becomes to derail everything)
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Post Post #8890 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:28 am

Post by Ether »

The paint mechanic here is taken from Cheetory6. (EDIT: speaking of which, his game needs a replacement! Go join it!)

Paint the Town
(9 players)
2 mafia goons
vs

7 vanilla townies

All mafia players start out colored red. All town players start out blue. On every night, including Night 0, mafia get to choose one townie to paint red. (This is permanent, and the townie isn't notified about the change.)

The day phase is split into two halves. During the first half, the town can choose a player and learn its color. (So blue players are guaranteed to be town, since there's no blue paint in this setup, but red players could be either scum or framed townies.) The second half is just a standard lynch--on death, a player's color is revealed as well as its true alignment.

I don't know the exact EVs yet, but running it on a simulator 100,000 times suggests that it's very, very close to 50.5%. (Obviously that assumes random lynches. It also assumes that the town will automatically lynch anyone revealed to be red, and scum will always kill confirmed blue townies.
Although teeeeeechnically it assumes that last thing by using two loopholes in the code that cancel each other out.
) Town might do better in practice, since if scum always kills confirmed townies, then they're killing whoever the town decides to confirm. I'm not necessarily convinced that's a bad thing, though.
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Post Post #8891 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:23 am

Post by House »

In post 8889, JasonWazza wrote:Well other than the fact that you can run out of shots (assuming the winner is always the person who starts it.)

Also i don't think turning the mafia sided people into tree stumps is ever all that fun (their job basically becomes to derail everything)
Thanks!

So, alternative theory...

All players are (non-xshot) gladiators except one townie that is the governor.

And yes, turning the scum into stumps along with town is what would give it the Colosseum atmosphere. Savage and chaotic.

Gladiators need a crowd, after all.

Perhaps a post restriction of 1-line per post, and 3 posts per (r/l) day? That way they could goad or coach, but not flood the game.
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Post Post #8892 (ISO) » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:52 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 8891, House wrote:
In post 8889, JasonWazza wrote:Well other than the fact that you can run out of shots (assuming the winner is always the person who starts it.)

Also i don't think turning the mafia sided people into tree stumps is ever all that fun (their job basically becomes to derail everything)
Thanks!

So, alternative theory...

All players are (non-xshot) gladiators except one townie that is the governor.

And yes, turning the scum into stumps along with town is what would give it the Colosseum atmosphere. Savage and chaotic.

Gladiators need a crowd, after all.

Perhaps a post restriction of 1-line per post, and 3 posts per (r/l) day? That way they could goad or coach, but not flood the game.
I played a game like this.. was fun.

How it went was, Player A challenges player B and the rest of the players choose who to lynch from the two of them. It was basically you could challenge someone anytime throughout the day but the first person who challenged someone began the gladiate. You could challenge more than once. The challenger and challengee could post itt but could reference the thread.

Let me pull it up.

http://personalitycafe.com/mafia/508818 ... hread.html
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Post Post #8893 (ISO) » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:06 pm

Post by JasonWazza »

In post 8891, House wrote:
In post 8889, JasonWazza wrote:Well other than the fact that you can run out of shots (assuming the winner is always the person who starts it.)

Also i don't think turning the mafia sided people into tree stumps is ever all that fun (their job basically becomes to derail everything)
Thanks!

So, alternative theory...

All players are (non-xshot) gladiators except one townie that is the governor.

And yes, turning the scum into stumps along with town is what would give it the Colosseum atmosphere. Savage and chaotic.

Gladiators need a crowd, after all.

Perhaps a post restriction of 1-line per post, and 3 posts per (r/l) day? That way they could goad or coach, but not flood the game.
It would have to be posts per day or something similar, because "1-line post" just means "spam 1-line posts to make it harder for town"

It's just generally only a good thing on townies.
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Post Post #8894 (ISO) » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:31 am

Post by xyzzy »

Delayed Kill

2 mafia
7 town

night start

whenever a player is killed by the mafia during the night, that player doesn't immediately die--the town is informed that they will die at the end of that day, they cannot be lynched, and they have a vote. so, for instance, on night 0, the mafia choose player A to kill; during day 1, player A has a vote, and because there are 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch. as a side effect of this, the town has assurance that player A is town. lynches aren't delayed in any way, which means that if player B is lynched, then players A and B will die at the same time.

I haven't bothered figuring out whether these numbers are balanced or not, so it's possible they're not remotely balanced, so this is obviously flexible to fix any issues there. another alternative would be to start the game with an even number of players and base the threshold for a lynch on the number of votes that would be needed if the killed player was completely dead--for instance, start with 2:8, and on day 1, it takes 5 votes to lynch. that might be worse! again, I haven't actually tried looking at how these numbers would play out, which would obviously be necessary before actually running this.
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Post Post #8895 (ISO) » Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:14 pm

Post by Hoopla »

Bingo Mafia3x
Mafia Goons
12x
Townies


~~

- There is a 5x5 grid with columns A-E, rows 1-5
- Pregame, each player privately selects which square they wish to start in.
- At the start of each day, there is a turn-based moving option for each player.
- Every player can move up, down, left or right.
- After the moving phase is finished, the day officially starts and the town votes to lynch an entire row or a column by way of majority. Every person in the nominated column/row is lynched.
- At night, the mafia selects a single square to NK. Every player in that square is night-killed.
- The moving order at the start of each day is selected by the mafia the night before.
- Movements are limited to 5 for each player for the game, which players can use all at once, not at all, or in any amount on their turn. Once their turn has passed, they are locked into that square until the next movement phase.
- Available moves left will be displayed next to player names.
- There is no limit to how many people can be in one square at once.
- Mafia have daytalk


Not 100% sure on what town:scum ratio I should be using for this game. I felt there needed to be a lot of town to offset potential multi-kill days and nights (although town should be aiming to prevent multi-NK's) and the scum selected movement order. I like scum selecting the order, as the late movers each phase will have a lot of control over what row/lynch options will be considered each day phase, which garnishes the game deliciously with lots of scum-wifom about their order choices (and board positioning overall).

In a good town it may be difficult to hide as scum once a scumflip has been revealed as there is lots of info to rule out likely scumpartners, so scum may have to bus creatively or take risks in board positioning if the town is using that in their scumhunting. I think the mechanic is strong enough and there'll be enough info around to prevent the need for powerroles. Just not sure about the ratio, really...
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Post Post #8896 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:29 am

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 8894, xyzzy wrote:Delayed Kill
Interesting mechanic. Mathematically the mechanic's equivalent to giving town a factional doublevote (because you're basically just giving a dead townie a vote), which helps the town because they gain an extra mislynch at the end of the game (when scum are easiest to find via PoE). As such, it's notably more valuable than an extra VT. That said, 2:8 nightstart is highly scumsided, so I suspect this game is scumsided too even though it's more townsided than that.

EV calculations for the mechanic (given are the numbers going into night); I did these in my head (writing down working at intermediate stages when I got confused) so they might be wrong:

2:1 1/2
4:1 5/83:2 1/4
6:1 33/485:2 3/84:3 1/8
8:1 279/3847:2 29/646:3 7/325:4 1/16
9:2 195/3848:3 37/1287:4 1/86:5 1/32


Assuming my maths is correct, 29/64 is not that far off where we'd want the EV of a game to be, so 7:2 at least seems reasonable. However, given that the game is effectively mountainous and scum have a full nightkill every night, town tends to do considerably worse than EV, so I'd probably throw in some extra VTs; if I were running this setup, I'd probably start at 9:2 (which has an EV of just marginally over 50%).
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Post Post #8897 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:39 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

This brings up the right opportunity to ask this (I think) with 2:8, 6 is required for lynch, which means more Townies need to be on a Scum lynch (if Scum are not bussing). How does/does this have an impact on things at all?
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Post Post #8898 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:49 am

Post by JasonWazza »

In post 8897, LicketyQuickety wrote:This brings up the right opportunity to ask this (I think) with 2:8, 6 is required for lynch, which means more Townies need to be on a Scum lynch (if Scum are not bussing). How does/does this have an impact on things at all?
Depends on if you mean in an EV respect or what you mean.
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Post Post #8899 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:34 am

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 8897, LicketyQuickety wrote:This brings up the right opportunity to ask this (I think) with 2:8, 6 is required for lynch, which means more Townies need to be on a Scum lynch (if Scum are not bussing). How does/does this have an impact on things at all?
EV theory assumes that this will be counteracted via the tendency of scum to bus (because if scum skewed their votes towards not bussing, town could use that as a method of determining who the scum were, bringing up town's win rate a different way). This probably doesn't exactly balance in practice, but it's good enough for approximations.

Instead, we allow for these sorts of things by comparing EVs to observed win rates. For example, in a mountainous game in which scum have a nightkill, observed win rates are much lower than EVs. The most likely explanation is that, with no theory-based reason to kill one townie or another, scum just kill all the best scumhunters early in the game.
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