[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion
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1. What happens if everyone alive avoids (EG. N1)?
2. Can mafia kill themselves?
3. Does the 1-shot doctor rule include the Mafia goons?
4. Can the Mafia do 2 actions in a night? (IE. Submit the list with them second, and doctor themself in the case that first avoids.)Returning win rate: 4/1, 80%
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1. No one diesIn post 8876, JasonWazza wrote:1. What happens if everyone alive avoids (EG. N1)?
2. Can mafia kill themselves?
3. Does the 1-shot doctor rule include the Mafia goons?
4. Can the Mafia do 2 actions in a night? (IE. Submit the list with them second, and doctor themself in the case that first avoids.)
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. A goon can avoid, Doctor and night kill all in one night.Come see me in the Great American Melodrama in Oceano- Creature
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I suspect that is very scum-sided if scum have their normal factional kill (not clear from the setup). Not sure if they don't - scum still have the advantage of never wasting their abilities, because they know which ones will be enabled.
I feel like there is an interesting seed of an idea in there somewhere, but it's too much of a crapshoot (in terms of what abilities town has and whether or not they are enabled) for me to be at all interested in actually playing it.- mith
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(I am really starting to think we just need a separate subforum for open setup ideas. On the other hand, I'm not sure what the ideal way to organize it would be; a separate thread for every setup could get overwhelming, and sometimes setups build off each other in ways that should be preserved somehow.)- Creature
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Love this idea.In post 8883, BBmolla wrote:I'd be very down to be an open setup subform mod mith
A topic per setup would probably be fine. Then you could run more frequent contests and such.I was anything worse than you! Anything worse than you was I!
You was doided teh aposit_tisopa het dedoid saw em.- callforjudgement
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callforjudgement Microprocessor
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I think it might be worthwhile to have a thread (either this one or one in Open Setups) that people could throw out quick experimental setup ideas in to see if they got shot down, but a forum sounds like a good idea for more "serious" setup ideas. (We could/should probably also do Open Setup reviews in the setup thread rather than in the Open Setup Reviews thread, too, although then we might need some other method to give them visibility. The change is nonetheless a good idea, though, especially as people often miss the purpose of Open Setup Reviews and confuse it with this thread.)scum· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·town- Ircher
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This thread is stickied, the other one isn't.Links: User Page | GTKAS | Ratings
Do you have questions, ideas, or feedback for the Scummies? Please pm me!
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How doable is this idea...?
Colosseum Mafia...
All players are given a 1-shot modified gladiator that turns the loser into a tree stump.
Lynches must be gladiated (votes outside of gladiation do not count). Nightless, scum has day chat.- JasonWazza
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Well other than the fact that you can run out of shots (assuming the winner is always the person who starts it.)
Also i don't think turning the mafia sided people into tree stumps is ever all that fun (their job basically becomes to derail everything)Returning win rate: 4/1, 80%
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The paint mechanic here is taken from Cheetory6. (EDIT: speaking of which, his game needs a replacement! Go join it!)
Paint the Town(9 players)
2 mafia goons
vs
7 vanilla townies
All mafia players start out colored red. All town players start out blue. On every night, including Night 0, mafia get to choose one townie to paint red. (This is permanent, and the townie isn't notified about the change.)
The day phase is split into two halves. During the first half, the town can choose a player and learn its color. (So blue players are guaranteed to be town, since there's no blue paint in this setup, but red players could be either scum or framed townies.) The second half is just a standard lynch--on death, a player's color is revealed as well as its true alignment.
I don't know the exact EVs yet, but running it on a simulator 100,000 times suggests that it's very, very close to 50.5%. (Obviously that assumes random lynches. It also assumes that the town will automatically lynch anyone revealed to be red, and scum will always kill confirmed blue townies.Although teeeeeechnically it assumes that last thing by using two loopholes in the code that cancel each other out.) Town might do better in practice, since if scum always kills confirmed townies, then they're killing whoever the town decides to confirm. I'm not necessarily convinced that's a bad thing, though.As I move my vote
Towards your wagon, town is taking note
It fills my head up and gets louder andLOUDER- House
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Thanks!In post 8889, JasonWazza wrote:Well other than the fact that you can run out of shots (assuming the winner is always the person who starts it.)
Also i don't think turning the mafia sided people into tree stumps is ever all that fun (their job basically becomes to derail everything)
So, alternative theory...
All players are (non-xshot) gladiators except one townie that is the governor.
And yes, turning the scum into stumps along with town is what would give it the Colosseum atmosphere. Savage and chaotic.
Gladiators need a crowd, after all.
Perhaps a post restriction of 1-line per post, and 3 posts per (r/l) day? That way they could goad or coach, but not flood the game.- LicketyQuickety
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I played a game like this.. was fun.In post 8891, House wrote:
Thanks!In post 8889, JasonWazza wrote:Well other than the fact that you can run out of shots (assuming the winner is always the person who starts it.)
Also i don't think turning the mafia sided people into tree stumps is ever all that fun (their job basically becomes to derail everything)
So, alternative theory...
All players are (non-xshot) gladiators except one townie that is the governor.
And yes, turning the scum into stumps along with town is what would give it the Colosseum atmosphere. Savage and chaotic.
Gladiators need a crowd, after all.
Perhaps a post restriction of 1-line per post, and 3 posts per (r/l) day? That way they could goad or coach, but not flood the game.
How it went was, Player A challenges player B and the rest of the players choose who to lynch from the two of them. It was basically you could challenge someone anytime throughout the day but the first person who challenged someone began the gladiate. You could challenge more than once. The challenger and challengee could post itt but could reference the thread.
Let me pull it up.
http://personalitycafe.com/mafia/508818 ... hread.htmlI was anything worse than you! Anything worse than you was I!
You was doided teh aposit_tisopa het dedoid saw em.- JasonWazza
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It would have to be posts per day or something similar, because "1-line post" just means "spam 1-line posts to make it harder for town"In post 8891, House wrote:
Thanks!In post 8889, JasonWazza wrote:Well other than the fact that you can run out of shots (assuming the winner is always the person who starts it.)
Also i don't think turning the mafia sided people into tree stumps is ever all that fun (their job basically becomes to derail everything)
So, alternative theory...
All players are (non-xshot) gladiators except one townie that is the governor.
And yes, turning the scum into stumps along with town is what would give it the Colosseum atmosphere. Savage and chaotic.
Gladiators need a crowd, after all.
Perhaps a post restriction of 1-line per post, and 3 posts per (r/l) day? That way they could goad or coach, but not flood the game.
It's just generally only a good thing on townies.Returning win rate: 4/1, 80%
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Delayed Kill
2 mafia
7 town
night start
whenever a player is killed by the mafia during the night, that player doesn't immediately die--the town is informed that they will die at the end of that day, they cannot be lynched, and they have a vote. so, for instance, on night 0, the mafia choose player A to kill; during day 1, player A has a vote, and because there are 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch. as a side effect of this, the town has assurance that player A is town. lynches aren't delayed in any way, which means that if player B is lynched, then players A and B will die at the same time.
I haven't bothered figuring out whether these numbers are balanced or not, so it's possible they're not remotely balanced, so this is obviously flexible to fix any issues there. another alternative would be to start the game with an even number of players and base the threshold for a lynch on the number of votes that would be needed if the killed player was completely dead--for instance, start with 2:8, and on day 1, it takes 5 votes to lynch. that might be worse! again, I haven't actually tried looking at how these numbers would play out, which would obviously be necessary before actually running this.- Hoopla
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Not 100% sure on what town:scum ratio I should be using for this game. I felt there needed to be a lot of town to offset potential multi-kill days and nights (although town should be aiming to prevent multi-NK's) and the scum selected movement order. I like scum selecting the order, as the late movers each phase will have a lot of control over what row/lynch options will be considered each day phase, which garnishes the game deliciously with lots of scum-wifom about their order choices (and board positioning overall).
In a good town it may be difficult to hide as scum once a scumflip has been revealed as there is lots of info to rule out likely scumpartners, so scum may have to bus creatively or take risks in board positioning if the town is using that in their scumhunting. I think the mechanic is strong enough and there'll be enough info around to prevent the need for powerroles. Just not sure about the ratio, really...- callforjudgement
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Interesting mechanic. Mathematically the mechanic's equivalent to giving town a factional doublevote (because you're basically just giving a dead townie a vote), which helps the town because they gain an extra mislynch at the end of the game (when scum are easiest to find via PoE). As such, it's notably more valuable than an extra VT. That said, 2:8 nightstart is highly scumsided, so I suspect this game is scumsided too even though it's more townsided than that.In post 8894, xyzzy wrote:Delayed Kill
EV calculations for the mechanic (given are the numbers going into night); I did these in my head (writing down working at intermediate stages when I got confused) so they might be wrong:
2:1 1/2 4:1 5/8 3:2 1/4 6:1 33/48 5:2 3/8 4:3 1/8 8:1 279/384 7:2 29/64 6:3 7/32 5:4 1/16 9:2 195/384 8:3 37/128 7:4 1/8 6:5 1/32
Assuming my maths is correct, 29/64 is not that far off where we'd want the EV of a game to be, so 7:2 at least seems reasonable. However, given that the game is effectively mountainous and scum have a full nightkill every night, town tends to do considerably worse than EV, so I'd probably throw in some extra VTs; if I were running this setup, I'd probably start at 9:2 (which has an EV of just marginally over 50%).scum· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·town- LicketyQuickety
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This brings up the right opportunity to ask this (I think) with 2:8, 6 is required for lynch, which means more Townies need to be on a Scum lynch (if Scum are not bussing). How does/does this have an impact on things at all?I was anything worse than you! Anything worse than you was I!
You was doided teh aposit_tisopa het dedoid saw em.- JasonWazza
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Depends on if you mean in an EV respect or what you mean.In post 8897, LicketyQuickety wrote:This brings up the right opportunity to ask this (I think) with 2:8, 6 is required for lynch, which means more Townies need to be on a Scum lynch (if Scum are not bussing). How does/does this have an impact on things at all?Returning win rate: 4/1, 80%
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EV theory assumes that this will be counteracted via the tendency of scum to bus (because if scum skewed their votes towards not bussing, town could use that as a method of determining who the scum were, bringing up town's win rate a different way). This probably doesn't exactly balance in practice, but it's good enough for approximations.In post 8897, LicketyQuickety wrote:This brings up the right opportunity to ask this (I think) with 2:8, 6 is required for lynch, which means more Townies need to be on a Scum lynch (if Scum are not bussing). How does/does this have an impact on things at all?
Instead, we allow for these sorts of things by comparing EVs to observed win rates. For example, in a mountainous game in which scum have a nightkill, observed win rates are much lower than EVs. The most likely explanation is that, with no theory-based reason to kill one townie or another, scum just kill all the best scumhunters early in the game.scum· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·town - callforjudgement
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