Hydra Discussion Thread

[xRECKONERx]

Hydras are bad, do not allow them in Survivor, use twists like pairs/partners if you want to coach newbies on the game

I don't really want to say much more publicly at the risk of offending some people but overall yeah, they're a huge pain in the ass to balance and make everyone feel okay about. If you don't have time to play Survivor without a hydra then you don't have time to play

[xRECKONERx]

I'm not sure that the theory on this is as clear cut as people think. Sure having a partner you can bounce ideas off of is a major bonus. However, if you have 2 people who very much are not on the same page you can have anti synergy that makes the hydra work a lot worse that the sum of its parts, especially if they disagree on literally anything. And while maybe if one head messes up people will still be fine with the other, it can equally be the case that one of the heads (*cough* Malkon *cough*) turns people off more than the other could. Also with challenges being split between heads, you can't just end up with a social and challenge superplayers.

I really don't think you should evaluate this in this way. "Well yeah SURE it can be a huge advantage but sometimes if the partners don't get along it's not a huge advantage!" That's not, mechanically, something you can balance for. Similarly, you can't balance a game around "well sure, someone COULD use this item as it's intended to be used... or, the person who gets the item could wind up being a big dumbass and not use it at all!" You cannot balance for the scenarios where things won't be used to their fullest advantage. You have to work under the assumption that they will be utilized.

This is kind of the whole problem.

The sheer advantage of having someone who you know has your best interests/goals in mind and won't lie to you or mislead you... that's

fucking enormous

. It's huge. It gives hydra that one singular advantage over every other player in the game and therefore throws off the balance entirely. There are plenty of other advantages I think hydras get, such as limiting burnout or allowing people to tag out when they need a break whereas solo players can't do it, but they're irrelevant. This one advantage (which isn't even debatable, it's objective fact that it's an advantage) unfairly advantages the game towards hydras vs. solo players.

I am kinda like flabbergasted we're even having this discussion. It's why hydras should've been banned in mafia a long time ago too but nobody took it seriously.
Literally the winner of the game is called the SOLE Survivor? Not really "sole" survivor if multiple people are winning together, is it?

[xRECKONERx]

Even in that case, I'm still fine with it.

That's buck wild to me that you can openly say "It is inherently unfair and advantages one slot over another but I don't care".

I dunno why striving for equality across slots isn't high on the priority list.

[xRECKONERx]

Even in that case, I'm still fine with it.

That's buck wild to me that you can openly say "It is inherently unfair and advantages one slot over another but I don't care".

I dunno why striving for equality across slots isn't high on the priority list.

lol~ a first timer has very low chances of winning. Pairing them up with someone as opposed to having them play alone increases equality across player slots.

Yes, a first-timer has a low chance of winning. That's because learning how to play these types of games takes time and experience to learn, so when you do get better and play well and get far. A first-timer should almost always lose to experienced players in every game that isn't Mario Party. LSGs aren't Mario Party.

Even in that case, I'm still fine with it.

That's buck wild to me that you can openly say "It is inherently unfair and advantages one slot over another but I don't care".

I dunno why striving for equality across slots isn't high on the priority list.

I think the debate isn't about whether there is an advantage to playing as a hydra, but about how big the advantage is/if there are enough other benefits of hydras to outweigh that significant disadvantage.

I don't even disagree with you, like my gut is against hydras and I think about all of my worst moments in games and how much better I would have handled them if I wasn't in it alone. Especially Hare passing off his final speech to Tortoise when he was burnt out was a moment where I was like, "Man I would love that to have that option," especially when contrasted with Rey who was clearly also burnt out but had to write a speech herself which ultimately cost her Avo's vote (and maybe other votes as well).

A lot of Survivor twists are about deciding what degree of "unfairness" we are willing to accept in order for the betterment of the overall game though, and I don't really view hydras any differently.

I think hydras fundamentally upset the nature of the game. Like to the point where if hydras become commonplace there's a 0% chance I would play LSGs ever again even if I had time. Yes there are twists in the game, the thing is all players are reacting to twists equally on the same footing. Hydras being in the game is inherently just one side has an advantage period the end and it has nothing to do with how the game unfolds, it's just straight up a starting point of unfairness.

[xRECKONERx]

Counterpoint: Immunity idols and items are secret. Hydras, except in a few games where they were the tricky twist, are public knowledge.

You can intentionally vote out hydras so they don't get to FTC. It's literally that easy. Treat them like any other jury threat and don't give them the option to trade off writing speeches. Choosing who you want at the end is a known mechanic in survivor.

You are incapable of seeing why idols (something available to all players) and twists (something that equally affects all players) are different from starting from a place of inequality, yes?

I believe I'm done here then.

[xRECKONERx]

Did you just say twists equally affect all players

Agnostically, yes, all player slots can be equally impacted by twists

[xRECKONERx]

Like it *seems* that categorically there are players that would refuse to play games with hydras based on both this thread and some stuff in confessionals early into this past game, and I don't want them to have to funnel into the one game a year that one of us decides to mod.

bingo

I actually pinged some players who have floated away from the LSG community to ask their thoughts ab this and they said the fact MS was doing hydras in LSGs solidified the fact they'd never come back and play here again so like, I dunno. I'm not sure it's as easy as "just ignore it if you don't like it".

[xRECKONERx]

@Vash Yeah it's supposed to be that it's more rewarding.

And... yes, we run a few games a year. That's kind of the nature of the game? We've maintained a steady growth of newbies in the community over the decade or so that LSGs have been running, I don't entirely understand why this is an issue. If you don't like that type of game that requires learning the ropes and getting used to it then like maybe LSGs aren't for you? Maybe spectate one first to see how it's played?

I'll also point out this is being brought up as "well hydras are for newbies" yet a hydra won the last game consisting of two non-newbies so idk why we're arguing in bad faith here

[xRECKONERx]

Also, like, you do have to consent into being a hydra, so if someone thinks they're fine on their own and they would be robbed of the grind, they can just...not, or choose to spectate.

Yes the issue isn't really whether people consenting to be in a hydra should be in a hydra. The issue is how the rest of the community feels about being forced to play w/ hydras

[xRECKONERx]

That was more me going off on a tangent in my head. Basically, you are saying new players in a hydra are being robbed of some reward by not getting better the old fashioned way (highly debatable imo). My response is more, shouldn't they get a choice? After all it's not like we'd be forcing any into a hydra.

My response is more "the way the game is played is by learning and growing".

Like, apply this to any game or hobby? There are "trainers" or coaches for things, that's how you learn, and maybe that means we need a designated all-newbie or special "training game" each year that won't have an influx of veterans or something. But sacrificing the normally run games by making hydras standard is not the answer.

[xRECKONERx]

I'll tell you one thing, this thread is really making me never want to play as a hydra because I feel like even if you win as a hydra, people are gonna be like "oh no, you were a hydra, such a huuuuuuge advantage" and it's almost like your win doesn't fully count. That sounds pretty depressing to me.

good

[xRECKONERx]

I'm not saying this about the most recent win at all. Hydra or not, they would've won at that Final 3 regardless. They deserve the win, but there will always be an asterisk on any hydra wins IMO

[xRECKONERx]

Yeah... it was kind of secondhand embarrassing reading reck's FTC posts at the end of barely survivor. It was more feeling bad for him than ourselves though since I know there's at least one person like that in each game for the most part. Having people who don't want the winner to win is nothing new.

What is this in response to?

[xRECKONERx]

Is this because I was shilling for Rey to win as a returnee or what? I legitimately don't understand what you're even attempting to say with that sentence.