[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/ext/alfredoramos/seometadata/event/listener.php on line 114: Undefined array key 13237634 [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/ext/alfredoramos/seometadata/event/listener.php on line 114: Trying to access array offset on value of type null Greeting's Mini Normal Review, February 2022 - Mafiascum.net
Post
Post #4 (isolation #0) » Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:50 am
Postby Greeting »
In post 2, Ircher wrote:This feels like one of those setups where even if it were in theory balanced, scum would not enjoy playing it at all. The main problem is that there are too many potential clears being generated from the town prs, and scum are going to be forced to kill clears rather than the people they want even in the worst-case scenarios for town. The cop is a clear, the FN is a clear, and it's quite likely that the cop will generate at least one clear over the course of the game. That's going to be an uphill battle for scum even if they manage to block one of town's prs every night.
What changes would you suggest? I am open to strengthening scum by giving them a one-shot Vigilante, but I am not sure if this is allowed in a Normal Themed Game. I could also remove the Jailkeeper (but I'd much rather leave both Cop and Tracker) and give town a weaker role instead.
Post
Post #5 (isolation #1) » Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:51 am
Postby Greeting »
In post 3, mastina wrote:Rule thing; hydras are not allowed in Normals.
Rule advice: I would discourage telling the town that there's precisely four town PRs. Telling the town that there's three scum PRs is probably fine, but telling the town that there's four town PRs has the unfortunate side-effect where if there's precisely four PR claims, they're all conftown, and if there's five, it can force scum to 1v1 town.
When the town being 1v1'd are a friendly neighbor, a cop, a tracker, and a jailkeeper.
Noted, and noted. Hydras will not be allowed, and players will not receive any information as to the amount of power roles whatsoever.
Post
Post #9 (isolation #3) » Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:48 am
Postby Greeting »
In post 8, Ircher wrote:
I apologize for not getting back sooner. I think replacing the jailkeeper with a role at a similar power level to the mafia mailman and making the watcher 2-shot or odd night probably puts this into the realm of balanced while not being too frustrating for scum. mastina has final approval over the setup, but that's what I'm thinking after looking through past completed reviews.
Also, in normal games, there cannot be a limit on the number of characters in the message that the mailman sends.
No worries, I was just getting into the groove. Besides, you didn't even meet the 36-hour threshold for a prod.
Looking at the roles gave me an amazing idea. How would you feel about replacing the Jailkeeper with a Neighborizer? Except the Neighborizer will not learn the role of the person they targeted, but the neighborized player obviously would learn that the player who targeted them is a Neighborizer. They, of course, can claim in the PT, but I will not confirm nor deny any claims. So they would become semi-Masons. This makes me super curious as to what would happen if a Neighborizer targets a scum and would give the scum an extra opportunity to mislead a townie.
Do you think that the mafia would be strong enough to counter this with what they've got, in the very likely case that a Neighborizer targets a townie?
And all right, if the character cap is not allowed then I'll leave it as it is. I'm just concerned about a troll posting outrageously long bullshit posts to use this to throw the game.
Post
Post #18 (isolation #8) » Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:23 am
Postby Greeting »
In post 17, mastina wrote:It's a little difficult to say for sure, but I would say "quite swingy, but loosely balanced".
The cop and tracker are incredibly strong (and the friendly neighbor is clearing), but the scum have a tool to identify TPRs and a tool to block them, with no possible interference with their nightkill, and decent ability to fakeclaim safely.
Double investigative with a conftown means that I'd probably give a
slight
edge to the town, ~55:45 imo (give or take 2.5%), which is within the acceptable balance margins even if it's slight townlean; if that's okay with you, then I would be okay with the setup.
I could limit the town Tracker from Night 2 in order to take a bit of power away from town to get it closer to 50:50.
Post
Post #21 (isolation #10) » Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:29 am
Postby Greeting »
In post 20, mastina wrote:If Tracker's the role you want limited thanks to its potential lategame power, a potential solution instead of gating the uses to X-shot or nonconsecutive-nights would be making it a N1/N2/N3 Tracker. (Night-Specific is a whitelisted modifier and you're allowed to make the nights be more than one, so N1/N2/N3 Tracker would be a Tracker allowed to act on N1, N2, and N3.)
That's a great idea. Would you consent to me limiting the Town Tracker to N1/N2/N3 in order to balance out the game to completion? I will make a summary post which will entail all the changes we discussed.
As for the alt rules, I decided that I will
keep
the rule, but without overly involving the MafiaScum administration. Players will be advised to claim truthfully about being an alt or having alts with me having the option (but not obligation) to force-replace anyone who refuses to submit such information or lies about it.
Post
Post #26 (isolation #12) » Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:10 am
Postby Greeting »
In post 24, Ircher wrote:Rule 6 under Miscellaneous (about day talk) should go under game-specific information. Also, your ruleset is very long. You may want to consider having a summary of the essential points somewhere as people don't tend to read long rulesets. Most experienced players skim or skip everything that isn't a setup-specific rule. Another option would be bolding your more unusual or important rules.
You are right, 6. from Miscellaneous should go there.
As for the ruleset being too long, I say
ignorantia juris non excusat
. I can agree that they're longer than most rulesets I've seen, but I don't see any room for slimming them down. I could try to rephrase what has already been said in a shorter way and bold the most important rules.
I can change the order and put "Game-specific information" above "General rules" too.
In post 24, Ircher wrote:This is minor, but in the town's win condition, it should read "You win when there
are
no more mafia..."
Noted.
In post 24, Ircher wrote:For the tracker pm, the role name should read as "Town N1 N2 N3 Tracker". The role should flip as such as well. I would delete "only" from the sentence that mentions the night phases in the tracker pm.
Noted.
In post 24, Ircher wrote:I think you are a bit confused about how a neighborizer works. I'm a bit short on time rn, so I'll clarify later. Alternatively, you can look at the wiki page for neighborizer.
I'll wait for you to clarify what you mean.
In post 24, Ircher wrote:Technically speaking, mafia have to have a member alive to win in normals. (Your current win condition doesn't reflect this.) This is less of a concern though in a mini where the only time that may not be the case is with a vig, but it's good to not inadvertently give away info about the setup.
It is mechanically impossible for there to be no players left in the game, but if you think that's important to not give that out then I'll make sure to include this.
In post 24, Ircher wrote:In the mailman role pm: "The player will also be allowed to quote the contents of the message directly into the game thread." --> Please delete this. This is too risky for game integrity purposes. You can probably allow copy-paste but not quoting.
Post
Post #29 (isolation #14) » Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:57 am
Postby Greeting »
In post 28, Ircher wrote:Okay, a neighborizer in a normal game has the following characteristics:
1) They start with no others in their neighborhood.
2) They can add a player to their neighborhood each night. Players added after the first are added to the same neighborhood not a different one.
3) The neighborizer action doesn't fail if the player is killed.
Your description is quite a bit different. If you want a neighborizer to only recruit one player, you would have to make it one shot. Unfortunately, there is not a way in normal games to refund shots if their action fails. If you want the target player to specifically know who neighborized them, that's not exactly normal either, but you can come pretty close by making the neighborizer loud. (They would receive a separate message that X targeted them last night in addition to the standard "You have been invited to a neighborhood" message. If you go that route, make sure the two messages are sent separately and not as a combined message.)
I understand. Would a one-shot Neighborizer
without
refunds be okay then?
And it kinda makes no sense to not let know the neighborized know who targeted them. I mean, they will get a PT link and by clicking on it, they will know who's in there. If there's just two players in the Neighbourhood, then it's kinda obvious to both parties whom is the Neighborizer and whom is the neighborized.
In post 28, Ircher wrote:Okay, a neighborizer in a normal game has the following characteristics:
1) They start with no others in their neighborhood.
2) They can add a player to their neighborhood each night. Players added after the first are added to the same neighborhood not a different one.
3) The neighborizer action doesn't fail if the player is killed.
Your description is quite a bit different. If you want a neighborizer to only recruit one player, you would have to make it one shot. Unfortunately, there is not a way in normal games to refund shots if their action fails. If you want the target player to specifically know who neighborized them, that's not exactly normal either, but you can come pretty close by making the neighborizer loud. (They would receive a separate message that X targeted them last night in addition to the standard "You have been invited to a neighborhood" message. If you go that route, make sure the two messages are sent separately and not as a combined message.)
I understand. Would a one-shot Neighborizer
without
refunds be okay then?
And it kinda makes no sense to not let know the neighborized know who targeted them. I mean, they will get a PT link and by clicking on it, they will know who's in there. If there's just two players in the Neighbourhood, then it's kinda obvious to both parties whom is the Neighborizer and whom is the neighborized.
Post
Post #34 (isolation #18) » Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:01 am
Postby Greeting »
Summary of changes:
- updated role names of Tracker and Neighborizer;
- updated the Mafia Mailman role;
- updated the Town Tracker role (by removing "only" per Ircher's suggestion);
- updated the Town Neighborizer (one-shot) role;
- updated mafia winning condition;
- made a few changes to the rules (not the content, but deleted a few points and merged them with others), bolded the most important ones;
- changed the order - "Game-specific information" went above "General rules";
- changed 2. of "Private Threads" accordingly to 30.
Post
Post #39 (isolation #21) » Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:18 am
Postby Greeting »
In post 38, Ircher wrote:The neighborizer should not be directly informed if their action fails (though they can certainly infer as much), but everything else looks fine to me.
Why?
I will remove it, but I’d like you to elaborate on why that is.
Post
Post #41 (isolation #22) » Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:39 am
Postby Greeting »
In post 40, Ircher wrote:It's the way things are on this site. Roles generally aren't informed their action failed unless they specifically get a result of some sort. Like for the neighborizer, sure, they'll know something is up when the person they targeted isn't in the neighborhood, but it's up to them to make that deduction. You risk accidentally giving away information you shouldn't. (To be clear here, I'm not saying this is usually the case or necessarily the case here, but it can happen.)
Also, for normal games, it is important that things like action resolution is standardized. This ensures a consistent set of expectations from players. As already mentioned, the current standard is that neighborizers don't get notified if their action fails. Deviating from the established standards can influence the way players perceive the setup and the deductions they make about it.
Alright, thanks. Although I privately would rather give out that information as I don't think there's much harm done and, as a player, would appreciate the clarity, I can accept that this is a Normal and should bend more towards what is generally expected. Hopefully, I'll be allowed more freedom in the Mini Theme queue in the future.
Town Neighborizer (one-shot) will not receive any information upon being Roleblocked.
Post
Post #46 (isolation #25) » Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:40 pm
Postby Greeting »
Just letting you know that 2. in "Voting and activity" will be amended to make sure it does not come in conflict with the site rules.
Here is how it looks like now:
Discussing replacements is allowed unless it is explicitly stated by me that it’s not.
Here is the new version:
Discussing replacements is allowed only after they happen. It is not allowed to discuss any possible future replacements, to threaten to replace or ask another player to replace out.
Post
Post #47 (isolation #26) » Sat Mar 05, 2022 3:48 am
Postby Greeting »
Upon deeper consideration, I will remove the rules on "bah!" posts. Given that this is my prerogative as mod, I have decided against allowing these after all.
That means that 8a. from "General rules" will be removed.
Post
Post #50 (isolation #27) » Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:56 pm
Postby Greeting »
They
are
visibly different in the game. The Mailman's role clearly states that they must be different.
I do not want to confirm this, because by doing that I will inadvertently confirm that there is a Mailman in the game, which I don't think I should be doing as a game mod.
Post
Post #52 (isolation #28) » Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:24 pm
Postby Greeting »
Saying this here and via PM:
I disagree with this interpretation completely and stand by what I said, but I will follow your instruction. I think that the conclusion the players will get is that I am confirming that there is a Mailman in the game.
I will respond to angela confirming that the message she got was from a Friendly Neighbor.
I will respond to Andresvmb saying that if there is a Mailman in the game and sent a message, the player receiving the message will know that it came from a Mailman.
Post
Post #53 (isolation #29) » Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:34 pm
Postby Greeting »
Oh and also, I will add 36 hours to the Day 2 timer in case the players feel like they’ve wasted their time arguing about this. This will happen in about 8 hours as I am at work right now and posting this on my phone.
Post
Post #55 (isolation #30) » Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:42 pm
Postby Greeting »
This is the PM that was sent out as a result of a FN action. The title was „Looks like you got a Message!”.
PM wrote:
You have received the following message:
Here is the role description from the wiki page, which I followed while designing the setup and making the roles.
Friendly Neighbor wrote:A Friendly Neighbor can target a player at Night to tell them that they are Town. The target will receive a message saying that the Friendly Neighbor is Town. This role does nothing else - the Friendly Neighbor does not know the alignment of the person who got the message.
I believe that the message sent out meets the wiki description quite literally. So if a player wants to know what a Friendly Neighbor does in a Normal Game they can open up the wiki page and check.
Which means that there is no deviation or ambiguity from what is expected in a Normal Game.
The Mailman, on the other hand, may be anonymous or not. I opted for a middle option which discloses the fact that the message is from a Mailman - this is stated in the role description.
The players are able to piece this information on their own if they choose to do so. The Mailman can literally just safely claim that he’s a Town Mailman and the ability would look exactly the same. As a matter of fact, the player who rolled Friendly Neighbor already caught on to this and pointed it out. Which is basically proof that mod intervention to solve this is unnecessary.
And I think that there is a lot of danger with these theoretical questions that on surface don’t reveal the setup, but the answered provides an outlook into technicalities which were left vague deliberately. The Friendly Neighbor is very obviously a counterweight to the Mafia Mailman. The message from the Friendly Neighbor has been created in such a way to give out less information in order to combat the fact that many players might think that it would be unlikely for both of these roles to appear in the same game as the same alignment.
Post
Post #56 (isolation #31) » Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:54 pm
Postby Greeting »
Maybe I wasn’t 100% clear about what I meant and didn’t finish my train of thought here.
The setup has been designed in a way to both meet Normal Game standards and provide careful bits of information to everyone in order to make it balanced. So the similarities and differences between the FN and Mailman roles are intentional and a part of the game’s balanced mechanic. I feel that if, as a mod I start to disclose the way these roles work to players who do not have them, I am starting to give out information that may influence the balance of the game.
Also, I am not prepared to answer questions like „what if there is a Town Neapolitan in the game and does x”? The question is theoretical, but the answer may give out unnecessary information about the balance of the game and may lead the player to conclude that there isn’t, in fact, a Town Neapolitan in this game. And I think that if I start tampering with this then I’m interfering with the game.
Which is why my opinion stands, but you’re the listmod here and I am not going to argue with that.
It’s just I need my laptop to do all this and can’t do this at work because my activity on my work computer is monitored.
Post
Post #57 (isolation #32) » Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:55 pm
Postby Greeting »
And also, if the person who rolled Friendly Neighbor chose to ask how the role works, I would have absolutely no problem in explaining it to them. And it’s their decision how to use this information, disclose it or not. But I received questions from players who did not get those roles.
visibly different in the game. The Mailman's role clearly states that they must be different.
I do not want to confirm this, because by doing that I will inadvertently confirm that there is a Mailman in the game, which I don't think I should be doing as a game mod.
That's the thing though.
A friendly neighbor, by design, NEEDS to be mod confirmed. It needs to be mod confirmed that it is NOT a mailman, that it IS a friendly neighbor.
Confirming that a friendly neighbor is a friendly neighbor and not a mailman does not imply one way or another the existence of a mailman. A mailman could exist, a mailman could not exist, it literally doesn't matter. The important thing is that a Friendly Neighbor result should never need to ask "hey is this from a mailman?" because they should know that, no, it is not, that yes, it is a mod confirmation that the player in question is town.
It doesn't say so in the wiki nor does it say so in the Normal Game guidelines. I literally made a role and used it in accordance with the description provided on the wiki.
Which is why I think this was interference in the game.
Post
Post #61 (isolation #35) » Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:41 am
Postby Greeting »
We can drop this though. I did what you guys wanted and to be fair, being a good game mod is more important to me than forcing everyone to accept my views.
Post
Post #62 (isolation #36) » Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:31 am
Postby Greeting »
In my next game I think I will remove the alt rule and also the replacement rule. There will be no requirement for explanation past prod 2, I will just replace out players on the third strike automatically.
These rules have been unpopular and probably only caused unnecessary trouble for me.
But this game will continue as it is, rules will not change unless it is absolutely necessary.