TM 2023 | Super Mario Bros Mafia | Game Over!

[Cerberus v666]

Ello all. I need to remember how to do this mafia thing.

Also I was going to do a crumb thing because there's a thing that happened to me yet again but I have realized that there's no subtle way to do it and the game is low on people who know me/might be aware of this thing, so it's unlikely to be a useful thing, so I'm just sharing with you all the thing so I have evidence later on when I said I wanted to do a thing to show everybody how cool my idea was. That is all.

VOTE: RR

HOW DARE YOU RVS ME....oh. wait.

Too much time hydraing with Drixx as Reasonably Rational, must retrain self. ^^

It's safe to say I will be straight up ignoring the fire flower, since the only actual use of a doublevoter is balance considerations if scum has access to a doublevote and therefore it's garbage.

Mostly agree. If a single slot is able to double hammer, that may shift the power balance to it being townsided - except, of course, for the fact that town is worst in D1 and therefore making huge swingy plays like that may be unwise.

@Mod
Does the Fire Flower grant two separate votes, or one vote that counts twice?

It's safe to say I will be straight up ignoring the fire flower, since the only actual use of a doublevoter is balance considerations if scum has access to a doublevote and therefore it's garbage.

This is probably correct regardless, but I think a double hammer would be really funny

Yep yep, important clarification and possibility, I eagerly await SC's update.

VOTE: Cerb666

Hi Wgeurts, I love you. FYI I decided pre-game-assignment that I would treat anyone I had won a scummy with in the past as a mason, so yay you get to be town! How shall we go about solving the game my fellow cucumber?

PEDIT: Also good clarification. I'm fairly sad that the power up is so arguably meh, actually, so hopefully it isn't. Fun little game to get into the meat of things instead of RVS nonsense. ^^

[Cerberus v666]

Vote me you coward

But why would I vote my only location? Oh wait, are we doing a distancing via voting thing so scum can't tell we're a mason pair?

I don't think that's a very effective tactic when I already told everyone you are my mason partner. ^^
Pedit: Oh, you don't need to treat me as a mason - you know how wriggly I am when it comes to people suspecting me of stuff. This is really just a way to keep things fun and overpower the aversion to mafia I developed over the last few years. Besides, pocketing the person who knows you best is so 2017, I'm almost ashamed you'd consider yourself scum!me's first target!


The question about approach to solving the game WAS serious though, and a tongue-in-cheek way of saying: " Hey you person who I know has, in the past, been able to wring all sorts of alignment indicative bullshit out of what I view as meaningless noise, where do you recommend I direct my own unique brand of inquisition?"

Ppedit: Nope, done with this, gonna respond separately after I get back from buying the last few bits for my upcoming Coachella trip(btw yeah semi VLA probably from the 18th through 25th, but we shall see what activity I can get in)

[Cerberus v666]

I think Fate's been retired since before I joined the site, wogurts (pronounced like Gogurt, fite me) used to be big in site admin stuff but is mostly lurker-y and I just finished my first game in two years. Even before that, Cerb basically only hydra'd with another player on his team. I think everyone else is reasonably active? Maybe?

Important note: in almost every hydra I've ever been in, I've provided the vast majority of thread presence. It was only in the last 6 months or so of my time on site that I started hydraing as a way to participate while reducing the effort required on my part - and even in those games, if anyone has the time to check - you'll see most posts are signed by -Cerb. I don't actually think this bit is particularly important or anything, just feel it's only fair that a representation of myself as someone who is low effort/not present in games is an inaccurate one.

Considering that means few have had the chance to play with them it still stands

Do you think Cerbs would specifically try to pocket a rusty player, though?

Considering that means few have had the chance to play with them it still stands

Do you think Cerbs would specifically try to pocket a rusty player, though?

Yes lol

Every Varsoon game somewhat faded in my memory still gives me that impression

Still feels insulting. Since you're talking about me, reaching out towards the person I know best in the game(especially one who I know is capable of putting together reads with actual reasoning behind them in the early game, which basically everybody fucking sucks at) is essential NAI. Town!Me does it because if I assume I have the best chance of catching them if scum, and if town I know we can work well together. Scum!Me does it because town!me would do it.

Both me's do it because it gets us out out of RVS on *checks game* the 12th real post of the game, and I hate all votes that are air.

I will say that rust level is irrelevant, because I haven't been around either and therefore don't know who has recent objective evidence of competence, other than things like seeing petapan's Don Corleone banner - so obviously I'll talk to the human's who I have a history with to work to form a townblock.

I'm currently null on everyone at the moment.

If no one wants the double vote power up then I'll be willing to take it.

Why are you even saying these things? I don't see an objective to either post?

We should still probably give it to someone, right?

Why?

It doesn't do anything and just bloats the thread to do so.

What does that mean by bloats the thread?

I don't want to hate on someone for asking questions, but what is your objective here? I assume you know what bloating the thread means, and also understand why talking about this would do so. Which means you have some other objective to asking the question, so what is it?

VOTE: powerup: porkens

But why?

Poetic.

UNVOTE:

I don't really like voting here anymore, but I don't know where else to go with it yet

Progression worth elaborating on. I'll need to ISO you two in context, but I think Jingle just did the mech talk stuff and questioned wgeurts in between your vote and unvote.

Adorable (Average ™ Enjoyers)
Radical Rat (Klickin’ Chickens)
HighPrincessErinys Whimsical Activities)
Cerberus v666 (We Don’t Mafia)
Cat Scratch Fever (Good in Plaid)
Wgeurts (Crispy Cream Puffs)
Petapan (Polymewl)

not spoken:
Fate (Ancient Guard)
Porkens (Pork Eaters)

A few pages old, but this is our working list.

Noted. This may get it's own post later.

And okay, I have like another bunch of posts that I was planning on responding to, but I shall endeavor to do so shortly.

And no, I probably won't have a reads list at the end of all this, or a vote on anyone. ^^

pedit: I really don't like the way the formatting on these posts looks ><

[Cerberus v666]

Back my preserved wall of quotes I was working on! (also I am very unhappy that this game took this long to start, I am actively cutting into my time to prep for the trip and it is annoying)

Because we think wogurts has a strong potential to be scum aorn. Ask a silly question...

ok, why?

I think Cerb's posts have been lengthy and wordy but don't have much meat to them & feel vaguely pocket-y of wgeurts

Oh boy, if you think my posts have been lengthy and wordy so far playing this game with me is not going to be fun for you at all. This isn't intended to be insulting, but - you do realize you signed up for a text-based social deduction game, yes? A game where people will...use lots of words! I also strongly disagree that there hasn't been substance - substance which others have actively engaged with. If you'd like me to walk you through the substance, I can.

And yes. Calling my posts "vaguely" pocket-y of wgeurts is an absurd underrepresentation of how pocket-y they are. They are INCREDIBLY pocket-y, I literally call them a mason and (attempt to, though autocorrect ruined it) call them locktown. It's all a little tongue in cheek, yes, but if you weren't interpreting it as pocket-y I would be disappointed. That was literally the point and so far it's working out as intended.

I think Cerb's posts have been lengthy and wordy but don't have much meat to them & feel vaguely pocket-y of wgeurts

I think if you look at it wogurts actually looks far worse in those interactions. 22 kind of implies wgeurts has the impression of being buddied, but there's no real follow up. It's very much a "look, I'm paranoid of you!" post, but I don't actually see any real paranoia. cerb otoh looks like someone who is reaching out for engagement.

As far as other posts by wgeurtz I disliked, the pressing of Adorable this early is NAGL and the defence of me/undermining peta's push raised my brows.

I believe wgeurts says this a bit later on, but I AM a very methodical player, quite conniving as any alignment, and certainly competent as scum(historically, who knows what the fuck I am now). An expression of paranoia without any action behind it seems...in character to me, given their history with me. I would expect also generic paranoia of me to be expressed by(limiting this to people who are involved in Team Mafia) Alisae, Firebringer, Frozen Angel, Mastina, and Titus, so I guess I feel like this is a me thing more than a scumtell/stretch on the part of people who have played with me many times.

Did I miss wgeurts pressing adorable, and if I did, what about it appears bad to you? With regards to peta's push, do you feel that peta's push was weak enough that wgeurts jumping in was an easy way to score brownie points with you? Or is there some other eye brow raising point?

Do you seriously think you have reliable reads at this point?

I’m asking more philosophically, not directly at you. Do people in general ever have reliable reads on page 5? Haven’t even read the game btw

I like this perspective. NAI, to be clear, but it lines up with my own and so I like it. :p

From my early read I overlooked the post where Cerb gave Wgeurts a town read. I'm curious to know if Cerb's town read on Wgeurts was serious or were they joking because at the time Wgeurts only made 1 post which was a vote on Cerb.

It was 100% a serious position that I decided I would take before the game even started as a means by which I would get the game actually started and start working on sorting wgeurts!

I’m asking more philosophically, not directly at you. Do people in general ever have reliable reads on page 5? Haven’t even read the game btw

But I was asking you

i thought you were asking jingle tbh - i'm certainly not displaying a strong level of commitment to any read i make esp. since i've unvoted him but that's why i'm going through the process of talking to people


sometimes i get good hunches early, i caught titus on page 6 of datisi's cafe, but that's usually dependent on a degree of meta. but i'm fully aware not every early read is going to be a banger and am tempering my approach to be cautious here

this is especially true in team mafia because having 3 other people shouting in your ear very often creates an echo chamber effect that can lead you to confirmation bias your reads, and that can lead to people mutually tunneling each other and consuming the thread in a destructive fashion. i am trying to avoid this

I appreciate the attempt to avoid confbias. Given that, it feels a little inconsistent to be acting on the perspectives of the shouts in your ear so early on. Or maybe that's super consistent, because you're just letting the contrarian positions reign and therefore actively working against confbias.

Hmm. Alright. Maybe no conclusion to be drawn here.

VOTE: hpe

Hello there.

Beetlejuicing. Hmm. Noted.

Do you seriously think you have reliable reads at this point?

I generally don’t think I have reliable reads on page 100. Reads are not the forte of my towngame, barring some specific players. I’m way better at managing the gamestate to make winning possible than actually having the right reads.

Doesn’t stop me litigating the reads I have though, because even if they’re wrong they generate reads for other people.

Also this one is trying to figure out how it feels about this post and it doesn't think it's going to any time soon so it's just going to move on because it... probably doesn't matter either way other than "I don't have reliable reads" is just a generally alarming statement.

Disagree. I don't have reliable reads is a realistic statement. I don't know you, but are you someone who just sheeps people who project confidence more so than those who actually admit that people are bad at solving games?

{Peta, Jingle}
{Radical Rat, CSF}
{Adorable, Cerb, Fate, Porkens}
{HPE}
<snip>

Cerb

I have absolutely no lean here so far, as I need to see actual substance. I do have to say that the thought has crossed my mind that the low activity from Cerb here could be indicative of low motivation, due to a higher barrier of play. Cerb was in the past as I remember very analytical and methodical in his play, to do so as Scum knowing there's eyes on it takes more energy. It would make sense that a scum Cerb would be less willing to jump in with coachella upcoming than town cerb. This is very much a stretch however, and likely unfair. Not willing to place stock in it, but need to see Cerb in action when he's properly around.
<snip>

Alright, reads wall, snipping this because I'm only going to respond to stuff about myself because I'm egotistical, but generally speaking - this is the town!wgeurts behavior that I was trying to prompt, now I just need to actually decide if it's real or contrived. I will circle back around to this whenever I do the same for Jingle's list.

Now, more about me: I am *very* low motivation period, and was so before this all actually started - I joined up specifically to help someone who then got banned put together a team so they could play, and now I'm just doing the thing because I said I would. I...don't think that scum!cerb takes more energy than town!cerb(if for no other reason than that *my* biggest strength, outside of mechanical analytical stuff, gauging thread temperature on people and avoid getting limmed, is twice as valuable while being scum so overall activation energy is close to the same) but the line of reasoning is good. As a general point for everyone - I am a pretty obsessive refresher of game threads, so I was generally reading along with the game/am generally doing that, but actually responding to things is more likely to happen in a flurry of activity or a disgusting wall post like this if I'm short on opportunities to engage.

Wgeurts, if you'll indulge my curiosity, how much of that reads wall was from you, and how much was workshopped by your team?

Peta I requested people help me look at as with the current gamestate sorting those two is most valuable. I also got given information on Adorable as I don't know how to deal with that slot, and neither does my team it seems. Everything else is purely my own thoughts.

Which two were the most important to sort?

Because there is very much a difference in Jingle expressly saying they don't think they EVER have reliable reads,

Not really a huge deal, but as a point of clarification this isn’t actually what I meant.

There are games when I’m confident on my reads. There are games when I’m confident on my reads from the early game. As a whole, I don’t think I am impressive in either my scumhunting or town hunting, although there are people who disagree. Even when I’m not confident on my reads, I’m going to be arguing them.

The ways in which I benefit the town, instead, are much more aligned with other aspects of the game. I’m great at recognizing and derailing shittunnels from other people. I’m good at dragging activity out of chronic lurkers. I’m one of the best, if not the actual best, at working with mechanics to make the game unwinnable for scum. I’m pretty good at gamestate analysis.

Not admitting the shortcomings I know I have doesn’t do me any good, and in fact hurts our chances.

Hope that explains things a bit better, although if it doesn’t I’ll ask you the same question I asked peta: “What could I possibly have to gain by lying publicly about my experience in front of a bunch of people who have seen me play?”

Jingle, did we ever actually play in any games together in the past? I know your name, but your last two listed strong points are basically my own and therefore I feel like I should know you better than I do.

I don't genuinely think Cerb was scum-buddying with me, prior to the game starting we were already excited to have the opportunity to play again and have some mafia history together. His post largely read as jest, and I responded with some pomp in turn. By itself, that post is entirely NAI. I am not paranoid of Cerb to put it simply, I'm playing along with them. ^^

This isn’t really an explanation of why what you did but an admission that it is what I was seeing. It also doesn’t really shake the feeling I got that your response was intended to make cerbs look worse.

I guess the question remains: what do you intend to do now to response to the reach out/establish a better groundwork to work with cerbs, and why haven’t you been doing it til now.

It's hard to reach out to cerb when he's not currently in the game, when he's actually here I'll more than happily bounce off them.

On a side note, what do you make of Porkens?

I'M KINDA HERE NOW WGEURTS BTW (I have a shitload to do today and not enough motivation to do it all!)

wgeurts/jingle exchange is net goodposting, ty both for your service.

I’m sodeeyeing porkers a bit for roughly the reasons you seem to be on our princess friend. There’s a lot of prima facie doing but not a lot that seems likely to lead anywhere. I’m not particularly interested in poking them atm though, because there IS the doing side of things and the going somewhere might be impending. I feel like it’ll be a better situation to read porkens if I just let them do their own thing for now.

What "thing" do you think porkens is doing?

[Cerberus v666]

Want to know why? The only tool you have as town is information. Where a metagame exists where it's acceptable to not provide substantive information scum can get away with more, there's simply less opportunities where they could potentially slip up. Without a constant and active stream or thought, engagement, and proactivity, it also becomes harders for others to gauge where you are. That is not a good thing.

Wgeurts come talk to me and ask me questions and stuff.

I'm going to go back to where that wall of quotes ends and figure out wtf else has happened that I wanted to talk about, I'll be here for a little bit instead of doing homework or job hunting or chella prep.

[Cerberus v666]

So I've come to the realization that pressing multiquote on everything that I have a thought about is going to make this game unbearable to read and play, and am trying to figure out where this habit came from because past!me certainly...couldn't have possibly...put that much time into things...did I? Fuck.

oh yeah this one's easy already page 2
VOTE: HighPrincess

I eagerly await the in depth and well reasoned argument based off their *checks notes* 3 posts they had made to that point which I am sure you will never provide.

oh yeah me and POrkens


this game going to 100 pages ez

Please no.

oh yeah this one's easy already page 2
VOTE: HighPrincess

Can you elaborate what you didn't like from it on page 2?

Lockscum

kids these days


doesn't nearly have a good a ring as confscum

Now.

For those questioning me, shhhhh, all in due time

That seems like a sketchy refusal to elaborate considering we only know for sure you've seen pages 1 and 2.

I think I missed a post by HPE in here where I was going to call out the beetlejuicing a second time, and instead accidentally posted the part where they threw shade on the person voting them instead. NAGL.

inaccurate one.

I didn't mean to imply you wouldn't be active. In fact, I would go so far to say that Team Mafia you will be almost identical to RR you as far as thread presence goes because you have Drixx whispering sweet nothings in your ear and that's how you always play from my reference point.

Interestingly, I think the activity and motivation level of my whole team is low enough that we are basically just playing the games on our own, lol. So, that's a thing.

Wgeurts, if you'll indulge my curiosity, how much of that reads wall was from you, and how much was workshopped by your team?

Peta I requested people help me look at as with the current gamestate sorting those two is most valuable. I also got given information on Adorable as I don't know how to deal with that slot, and neither does my team it seems. Everything else is purely my own thoughts.

The reason I ask is that while nothing in particular stands out as objectionable on its own, having such a comprehensive wall of opinions about every player (except Fate of course) so early on feels somewhat incredulous. Particularly it feels strange that you point out my reads as being too strong, even though I only actually have one read I'd consider to be anything more than a lean (CSF), inside of a wall post filled with nuanced opinions on everyone.

Just feels kinda like you felt obligated to have thoughts on everyone instead of them flowing naturally

RR, this is 100% in character for wgeurts and is the expected play. I recommend focusing on whether those reads and the progression and pressures being placed make sense, more so than whether or not you feel it's too early/their isn't sufficient meat to justify the positions they're holding.

Still feels insulting. Since you're talking about me, reaching out towards the person I know best in the game(especially one who I know is capable of putting together reads with actual reasoning behind them in the early game, which basically everybody fucking sucks at) is essential NAI. Town!Me does it because if I assume I have the best chance of catching them if scum, and if town I know we can work well together. Scum!Me does it because town!me would do it.

I'm not sure if you're talking to wgeurtz or me here, but FWIW I could definitely see a theoretical town cerb trying to pocket wgeurtz as a place to use for a start in putting the thread together. Pocketing isn't an exclusively scum activity, even if it is far less dangerous for scum because they don't have to worry about pocketing a scum player and just ending up a worthless pile of town crap.

When you get a chance could you give your thoughts on the wgeurtz scumlean I explained? I think you specifically are well placed to give insight.

Hmm what post? I'll go look for it myself after this post probably, but in case I don't have something up before you get to this thread, please assist! I'm pretty sure you're talking about your sentiment that wgeurts' posting with regards to me was intended to make me look bad more so than anything else?

The reason I ask is that while nothing in particular stands out as objectionable on its own, having such a comprehensive wall of opinions about every player (except Fate of course) so early on feels somewhat incredulous. Particularly it feels strange that you point out my reads as being too strong, even though I only actually have one read I'd consider to be anything more than a lean (CSF), inside of a wall post filled with nuanced opinions on everyone.

Just feels kinda like you felt obligated to have thoughts on everyone instead of them flowing naturally

You evidently never had the pleasure of playing with me when I was active. That's how I play the game, I've got a spreadsheet I note people's thought progressions, votes, and go back to once people start flipping so I can find associative-tells and patterns. Cerb at minimum can vouch, that's just how I roll.

As for your reads, strength is relative to the timeframe of the game, early on a relatively intense lean can be pretty strong. Your progression on Jingle is acceptably town-minded, your reasons for disliking CSF are sufficiently far-flung that in the given boardstate it just doesn't seem like something scum would do right then. The way you post isn't with hesitancy either, you just slap CSF with your vote and accuse him, that's what I mean by strong, intensity may be a better alternative.

Yep yep, once again agreeing that this is just their way.

Also, Cerb, read this post of Adorable and the following by my teammate Xof thereafter from Team Mafia 2021. Adorable rolled Town there, this is just how they play, and an example of why I personally am going to have a headache sorting said slot.

viewtopic.php?p=12643916#p12643916

Fuck. Homework. Okay. Will do.

Lockscum

kids these days


doesn't nearly have a good a ring as confscum

Now.

For those questioning me, shhhhh, all in due time

That seems like a sketchy refusal to elaborate considering we only know for sure you've seen pages 1 and 2.

HPE, if you're town, instead of hunkering down on why people are voting you tell me who you think we should be voting instead.

This one kinda has some misgivings about the vibes of Porkens and to a lesser extent since they've only just now come around, Fate. Porkens instantly voting for you after me gives something of a buddying impression, though it's not... really sure what to make of their posts otherwise, because it feels like shitposting. This one's starting to like you a bit more after 169 clearing things up a bit but the initial accusations are still... Eek.

I would appreciate a response to my question about who you are and how you do the mafia things!

the initial accusations are still... Eek.

Can you explain how their accusations are different from mine or peta's?

Goodposting.

I didn't like how Fate voted HPE with no elaboration and had nothing else to add.

Cerb has not been asking me good questions and these are the kind of questions that don't help on scum hunting. It looked like busywork to me. I would prefer players ask me question with a single quote and not a wallpost because I don't know how to edit the huge wall.

HPE I am null on and I can also imagine a town HPE being low hanging fruit. They said they are a passive player, I am also a passive player and I see nothing wrong with being passive.

Noted Adorable! I'll have you your own special just for you post, though before that I will just say - REASONS are the things scum need to make up. Asking you why you're doing or saying things and what the point is works to, ya know, force scum!you to justify the otherwise useless posts you've made.

[Cerberus v666]

JUST FOR YOU ADORABLE!!!

I'm currently null on everyone at the moment.

If no one wants the double vote power up then I'll be willing to take it.

Why are you even saying these things? I don't see an objective to either post?

We should still probably give it to someone, right?

Why?

It doesn't do anything and just bloats the thread to do so.

What does that mean by bloats the thread?

I don't want to hate on someone for asking questions, but what is your objective here? I assume you know what bloating the thread means, and also understand why talking about this would do so. Which means you have some other objective to asking the question, so what is it?

[Cerberus v666]

Okay, homework done.

For those who didn't follow along - in a game where Adorable was town, someone who effectively said they were going to defend Adorable was NK'd, and the next day when another slot came after Adorable they made the case that perhaps the person who was NK'd was killed specifically to make it easier to get Adorable limmed.

So, Adorable is capable of slight moonlogic and may have an overinflated idea of their own importance in scum planning. ^^

[Cerberus v666]

I believe wgeurts says this a bit later on, but I AM a very methodical player, quite conniving as any alignment, and certainly competent as scum(historically, who knows what the fuck I am now). An expression of paranoia without any action behind it seems...in character to me, given their history with me. I would expect also generic paranoia of me to be expressed by(limiting this to people who are involved in Team Mafia) Alisae, Firebringer, Frozen Angel, Mastina, and Titus, so I guess I feel like this is a me thing more than a scumtell/stretch on the part of people who have played with me many times.

Did I miss wgeurts pressing adorable, and if I did, what about it appears bad to you? With regards to peta's push, do you feel that peta's push was weak enough that wgeurts jumping in was an easy way to score brownie points with you? Or is there some other eye brow raising point?

Mostly 42 and the leads rist, but wgeurtz is poking them in a way that I think fairly obviously won't encourage actually indicative interaction. Specifically for 42,

Thoughts on the interactions between me, Jingle, Cerb and Peta? Fine to have null reads, but you're going to need to elaborate why you have null reads.

The first bit would be fine on it's own and even slightly towny, (calling attention to specific people to ask for them to talk about them is a great way to get info out) but the latter half is aggressive and feels like wgeurtz has already made a judgment before looking at what content gets produced. Arguing that someone needs to have reasons for not having thoughts isn't going to suddenly make them have reasons for not having thoughts, but it is a decent setup for a push later on. Given the context of Adorable coming in with her LHF selflabel, the aggressiveness of the push is :eyebrows:.

Ah. got it, I think I see that. My interpretation(and this is surely colored by the fact that I don't like the way adorable felt the need to come out and say they have nothing of value to add) is that wgeurts was aggressive here to head off Adorable giving a non-answer, as they appeared prone to do. I can see where one might see that as a long play on someone who is LHF.

Porkens is being useless, but that's unfortunately something people do as town as well as scum. So I need more information. Why aren't you voting Porkens over Fate, as he's not exactly giving much either? @HPE

Cerb, more importantly what is your stance on both Jingle and Peta. Those two are highest priority to sort with relative certainty.

They both appear to be playing mafia, which is more than I can say for other people. I can ISO critically on both if you'd like, but at the moment I like Jingle and their approach, they feel like they're working to do stuff, and I don't particularly dislike, but certainly don't like, Peta, but this is not strong enough by my standards for me to know anything more than I need to actually look more closely at them.

Jingle, did we ever actually play in any games together in the past? I know your name, but your last two listed strong points are basically my own and therefore I feel like I should know you better than I do.

I don't think you've played games with this account, but we've definitely played together and meshed well while I was on Bingle. I think I've also modded games you've been in and I've definitely reviewed and spectated games you've been in (I've modded more games than I've played and reviewed more games than is reasonable) although mostly on RR. The only individual reaction I can recall is the first game we played together where I accused you of being someone from my first on site game and it turned out it was just a similar username.

Got it! That context makes snese, thanks.

Porkens is being useless, but that's unfortunately something people do as town as well as scum. So I need more information. Why aren't you voting Porkens over Fate, as he's not exactly giving much either? @HPE

Because this one very much wants Fate to start talking considering they've provided even less than Porkens has. You ARE still on my list, but this one would really like these two to get to generating content, Fate especially.

I would appreciate a response to my question about who you are and how you do the mafia things!

If this one is going to sheep, it tries to sheep people it agrees with and trusts, and confidence doesn't usually have much to do with that, it thinks.

HPE, is there anyone in this game who you are not currently suspicious of, and why? I appreciate a focus on scum, but also, like, identifying town is important.

And okay, then - in that case, what exactly was the problem you had with someone stating their reads are unreliable? Can you walk me through that reasoning, if the confidence someone projects doesn't have much to do with it?

[Cerberus v666]

JUST FOR YOU ADORABLE!!!

I'm currently null on everyone at the moment.

If no one wants the double vote power up then I'll be willing to take it.

Why are you even saying these things? I don't see an objective to either post?

We should still probably give it to someone, right?

Why?

It doesn't do anything and just bloats the thread to do so.

What does that mean by bloats the thread?

I don't want to hate on someone for asking questions, but what is your objective here? I assume you know what bloating the thread means, and also understand why talking about this would do so. Which means you have some other objective to asking the question, so what is it?

My objective was to let players know that I didn't have any reads and it's better to share what I have been feeling instead of keeping it to myself. A teammate of mine said I should get the double vote power which is why I said in the thread I would be willing to take it. I didn't know on what bloating the thread means which is why I asked.

Interesting. This post is approximately 55% scum, 45% town. I think it's *slighly* more scum than town to want to get your thoughts out in the game ahead of people questioning you about them, and it's *definitely* more scum than town to defer responsibility for doing something that the game has decided is scummy. Interesting that you did not know what was meant by bloating the thread, but understood, makes sense in that case.

[Cerberus v666]

Also(and this is kinda unrelated to the actual game state but also a bit revelatory to me: I USED TO MULTIQUOTE WALLS OF THINGS TO CHAT WITH MY PEOPLE ABOUT WHILE HYDRAING, THAT'S WHY IT'S MY HABIT!. I'd multiquote and preserve some portion of things in PT's or discords and then trim it down to what I actually wanted to talk about, and right now because I'm running off of muscle memory I'm doing it but you're all getting the fluff along with the crunch unfortunately.

[Cerberus v666]

oh yeah this one's easy already page 2
VOTE: HighPrincess

I eagerly await the in depth and well reasoned argument based off their *checks notes* 3 posts they had made to that point which I am sure you will never provide.

It seems like you picked up on the same issue with Fate's post that I saw, so it's surprising to me that you would also write this:

Lockscum

kids these days


doesn't nearly have a good a ring as confscum

Now.

For those questioning me, shhhhh, all in due time

That seems like a sketchy refusal to elaborate considering we only know for sure you've seen pages 1 and 2.

I think I missed a post by HPE in here where I was going to call out the beetlejuicing a second time, and instead accidentally posted the part where they threw shade on the person voting them instead. NAGL.

I can take issue with the behavior of both slots. I vaguely recall fate being a spammy player who appears useless until they suddenly become useful, so I don't expect anything to come from them that is well reasoned,especially not at this point.

And I suppose my beetlejuicing sentiment largely came because from my own passive reading of the game throughout the day yesterday, it seemed like the only times HPE said anything really substantive was directly in response to someone attacking them. Arguably an incorrect application of the label, since they weren't just being silent or PURELY fluff, but I think the overall sentiment with regards to that sort of behavior still applied.

[Cerberus v666]

I can take issue with the behavior of both slots. I vaguely recall fate being a spammy player who appears useless until they suddenly become useful, so I don't expect anything to come from them that is well reasoned,especially not at this point.

Sure

To clarify, when you said 194 was NAGL, how did that post strike you as scum indicative instead of town trying to find scum on its wagon?

It was the sequence, not the singular post. Someone votes them, they pop up. Someone else votes them, they do it again, and throw shade on the person who is clearly voting them for no reason they can or will articulate, as though everyone else can't see that Fate obviously has nothing to say. Also not necessarily scum indicative, just badtown indicative at best.

[Cerberus v666]

VOTE: Fate

Feeling rather uncertain of my reads atm, but this is fine for now

---

I've been ambivalent about wgeurts but am going to tentatively say they're town. The thing that threw me for a loop was their early townlean on me when I wasn't feeling engaged in the game yet. It felt like a tmi-y townread made to potentially pocket someone, but thinking about it some more, I think I'm kind of a weird choice for a pocket in this list, especially since I was low effort posting up until that point. My team is feeling good about wgeurts too so that's also a thing

---

Cerberus, can you summarize where you have people at right now?

I could, but on principle I won't barring a super compelling reason to do so. I'm a Day 3 in a large game give a reads list and solve the game kinda guy. Since this is smaller, I'll solve the game midday tomorrow assuming we see two flips to base my analysis off of.

I will, however, gladly answer specific questions. If you want some non-summary thoughts on an individual in the next 24 hours(before my presence may become spotty) I could probably be convinced to ISO someone and arrive at a conclusion about them in particular that I'm willing to share.

cerb mostly comes across as null in everything he's posted so far. but maybe scummy given the lack of solid stances in all that posts. (i have an instinctive bias against quote stripes that has little basis in reality though)

Perfect. Play is coming across exactly as intended to those who don't know me! ^^ If you could just hold me right there in the "just scummy appearing enough that scum will never NK me" zone I would appreciate it.

[Cerberus v666]

V/LA through April 24th

I will endeavor to be as active as possible throughout - but this is what my life will be over the next 5 days

4/19 - 12 hours driving to Vegas, vegas'ing and sleep
4/20 - 5 hours driving to Coachella, 2-4 hours in line(may be able to post), 1 hour setup camp, partying
4/21 - 12+ hours festival+party in campgrounds, morning post attempts
4/22 - 12+ hours festival+party in campgrounds, morning post attempts
4/23 - 12+ hours festival+party in campgrounds, morning post attempts
4/24 - 12 hours drive to Utah/16 hour drive to Denver, depending.

Cerberus, can you summarize where you have people at right now?

I could, but on principle I won't barring a super compelling reason to do so. I'm a Day 3 in a large game give a reads list and solve the game kinda guy. Since this is smaller, I'll solve the game midday tomorrow assuming we see two flips to base my analysis off of.

I will, however, gladly answer specific questions. If you want some non-summary thoughts on an individual in the next 24 hours(before my presence may become spotty) I could probably be convinced to ISO someone and arrive at a conclusion about them in particular that I'm willing to share.

I'm more interested in a quick tiered list of people over a detailed read list wall with explanations. You're making observations, and I'm interested in how you weigh the various things you've pointed out to form conclusions

as for a comprehensive ISO on someone, maybe wgeurts since you're familiar with their meta already

You also seem to imply that you're a teamsolver, yes? Any feelings as for what the scumteam may be doing yet?

Yeah, I know what you want, but that isn't what I'm going to be doing, to maximize my own data gathering ability in the face of the opportunity to see how people who don't know me choose to play.
wgeurts ISO noted, not performed yet, so what you're getting here are thoughts as I recall them right now - they are acting *perfectly* within their meta, which is one of those things that is innocuous until you consider that they haven't played for quite some time - thus the question becomes are these activities coming about because of a rote adherence to meta from scum, because it's simply easier than doing something different, or is it muscle memory, as it were. The poking and prodding for more details behind unsupported statements, and suspicion on slots based on posts that appear to be more noise than signal, is also in line with D1 solving from them. I do know they're as good at acting within their town meta as I am, however(a virtue of being methodical and doing things like keeping spreadsheets so you can see how you have thought about things in the past as town - apply the same methodology you have in the past and you can pretty easily act as expected), so they're very slightly town based on current play. I have no desire to lim them because I know they're a very high performer whose methodology meshes well with my own, and I'm confident that the match in process means that if they are scum, barring a scum partner on their side who is absolutely incredible(and unfortunately I am not familiar enough with the playerlist to know of anyone who is purportedly incredible as scum here, except maybe Fate/Jingle(and this is like, based off barely remembered mentions from years ago), the cracks and manipulation will become obvious to me, and if those cracks aren't present, they're worth a lot more to us alive than they are dead.

I'd say I'm actually more of a(in longer games, at least), "find a member of the scum team and then use them to out their partner(s)" type of player. With that said, the only slots with post interactions(that is, ignoring vote movements and so on, I'll look at those when we see a flip for today) that strike me as suspect as a team are Adorable/Jingle, with regards to powerups and so on, but honestly given Jingle's mechanical focus I doubt any benefit to that particular team would have been missed to such an extent that Jingle would have come out so adamantly opposed to using the powerup at all. It's possible that there was some miscommunication or misreading of role PM's, and that led to the abrupt turnaround, but it seems unlikely.

Because they're right

What was genuine about their posting?

They're emotional and reactive. Lots of stream of consciousness type stuff. Their posts are not being deliberated upon, or at least don't look it

This implies that Jingle, wgeurts, and myself, I would say, are not being genuine. You've expressed some degree of suspicion towards wgeurts(I think?) and myself(I know), so that's consistent, but you also expressed a fairly early positive read on Jingle(supported by your teammates) - can you elaborate on why Jingle's behavior and posting is town indicative, particularly in the context of "posts appear to be deliberated upon"?

[Cerberus v666]

Votecount 1.8

wgeurts (2) - Porkens, HighPrincessErinys
HighPrincessErinys (2) - wgeurts, Fate
Porkens (2) - Petapan, Cat Scratch Fever
Cerberus v666 (2) - Adorable, Jingle
Petapan (1) - Radical Rat

Not voting (1) - Cerberus v666

(expired on 2023-04-26 11:46:00) remain until day end

Cerberus is on V/LA through Monday.

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to reach a majority.

Start of D3 of Coachella! I haven't read, just checked the VC to see if there were any pressing wagons I should weigh in on - doesn't seem like much is happening. HPE and wgeurts continue to crossvote, porkens and fate do whatever the fuck it is they do, peta and csf surely have some sort of justification for voting porkens, adorable has effectively omgus'd me, I assume, for calling one post of theirs more scum than town, Jingle is probably attempting to put pressure on me to get more content when I get back or something, RR is also idk, and I continue to not vote. Cool.

I can be available to respond for the next 2 hours while I sit in my car and use the AC to attempt to allow for resting. I'll likely fully catch up to the game when I get back hoke, but if there are things you'd like me to respond to, feel free to direct me to them.

What do you have for me?

[Cerberus v666]

What do you have for me?

Can you read 617 and let me know what you think?

Interesting. It's definitely clear that, based on the sample you provided at least, that Porkens is acting more in line with their scum meta than their town one. I'd need to look more closely at the town games to see if there's other causes for engagement though - for example, in one Porkens mentions nobility, which I assume I'd related to some game mechanic - just something to consider as far as possible other causes of engagement are concerned.

Since you did the research here - would you say Porkens appears disengaged as scum, or especially engaged as town? I'm phrasing it that way, rather than any verbiage implying that it being harder to fake reads than give genuine ones, because Porkens has been around long enough that I do not expect there to actually be a challenge for scum!porkens in giving some content to the game if they chose to do so. Basically, is Porkens baseline meh, and scum doesn't drive them to do better, but town does, or vice-versa?

[Cerberus v666]

Also,for the record, I generally find meta tells to be dumb. :p I'm probably biased, because I very deliberately adhere to a certain meta and playstyle that is equally artificial as both town and scum, because I know others place weight on it...but I do tend to believe that anyone reasonable competent and emotionally unattached from the game can project whatever sort of meta they want to.

Unrelated to that, but back to the point - the meta tell you're pointing out here is essentially just what is universally viewed as scummy behavior - not anything unique to Porkens. Which probably answers my question above, actually - you just think Porkens is probably bad at playing scum period. Is that an accurate statement?

Pedit: Got it. Question about the accuracy of my statement still stands.
Jingle: my team had one member get prodded because they didn't post within 24 hours of game start, and nobody has read anyone else's games really, just replied to questions and comments people have made - with me being the one doing most of the replying.

So, basically, my team is currently not helping at all, though Drixx did promise to read while I was V/LA and give me his thoughts at the end so I wouldn't wander back in completely blind.

[Cerberus v666]

Unrelated to that, but back to the point - the meta tell you're pointing out here is essentially just what is universally viewed as scummy behavior - not anything unique to Porkens. Which probably answers my question above, actually - you just think Porkens is probably bad at playing scum period. Is that an accurate statement?

Pedit: Got it. Question about the accuracy of my statement still stands.

Yes i suppose that's a fair statement

And I agree, it is a generic scumtell. Maybe i shouldn't have phrased it as a meta read, since a lot of people don't care for it, which is kind of frustrating. But generic scumtells don't apply universally, and the fact that there is some past evidence to support this generic scumtell applying specifically to Porkens makes it more valuable than just applying a generic scumtell willy nilly

*nods* Got it. In the absence of this meta tell, would you still be voting Porkens?

[Cerberus v666]

@cerbs, could you skim 484 through my response in 537? I know it's a bit of reading, but even impressions on a quick read would be nice.

Directs me to a wgeurts wall case and tell me to skim and give impressions.

....

Sure? Lol. Specifically about wgeurts, HPE, game as a whole as relates to that and what followed, or what?

Pedit - CSF:Understood. So that particularly brand of scummy behavior is sort of NAI to you, without corroborating evidence. Alright. Thanks for giving me some insight into your process. The Porkens slot is not one that I don't want lim'd; there's actually only 1.5 of those, and it should be evident who those are. With that said, barring an outright scumslip you should not expect a vote from me unless we're down the last 24 hours of D1 and still haven't limmed someone - but your points are noted, and barring any improvements I have no objections to the loss of that slot today, other than the sorta weak associations it has - but that is kinda the price paid for going after that particular sort of behavior.

[Cerberus v666]

We played in the generational family game off the top of my head. And how in the love of god did you think wgeurts’ wall was anything but garbage?

This is where I am on the homework Jingle. And without actually clicking on any of the links, I thin just the case is about as solid as you can get on D1, EXCEPT for the part where wgeurts says the moonlogic of their reads is scum indicative. I tend to think its generally only town that are that oblivious. We'll see how I feel after your response to the case!

[Cerberus v666]

Spoiler:

This one believes it has an understanding of how Porkens and Fate play now, and that's "silly". Neither seems to be a very high-content poster or much of ones to elaborate on why they do the things they do, but this one was still figuring that out. Fate was ESPECIALLY doing nothing, so it threw a vote onto them that went nowhere of use as they didn't really stir from it. It went back to you as it realized that Fate and Porkens just Play Like That and that trying to strongly scumread them for it is just... eh. Which is why this one asks: Do you often try to elim people based on their playstyle? Because your choices of vote on me/Porkens/Fate really gives the impression you do, unless you don't? Because if you don't then it's low-hanging fruit to try and get the low-contents who are always low-content.

fate is very much doing things and imo it's uncharitable to describe him as not - you might not like it or find it hard to read into but he's said stuff (towny stuff imo)

i think you shouldn't make assumptions about people play just based on the game you're in - porkens can often be low-effort, but he's more than capable of producing substance as town (note: his early posts in that game had him using chatGPT as a gimmick, he drops it at iso #13 so skip there), and the fact that he hasn't done so here and seemingly hasn't read the game despite having multiple teammates who could help him, is legitimately scummy


i also think if you're going to chalk things up to a clash of playstyles, why can't you assume it would be town vs town and they're misreading you due to not understanding how you play? not every push

has

to have malicious intent. i think wgeurts legitimately believes their whole iso-dive case trying to bury you, the way they talk about it feels like genuine belief over

so here's the deal

Cat Scratch Fever is a townie. This is a meta read, and meta reads tend to be annoying if you don't know the person, but it is what it is. she's much moe low-effort/low investment as scum

wgeurts is town because there's legitimate conviction in their highprincesserinys push, annoyance at porkens doing nothing, even starting to get irritated with me for not doing anything with my vote. they're someone who is very clearly trying to solve the game.

Fate is town because i don't think he fakes derping on the setup like that as scum and cuz i think he believes thstuff he's pushing on

Adorable also probably town for earnestness but i have a weak spot for players who sound earnest. there's a little more uncertainty here because she's been playing a bit reserved but i think her recent posts come across as fairly plausible explanations for her reads

radical rat mostly looks the part of a townie with how they've been going about things, their vote on me is silly but i don't think it's scum-motivated

cerb idfk he hasn't done anything but is kind of yolo town. him accusing hpe of beetlejuicing felt a lil opportunistic maybe but it might be one of those cases where i'd expect a player to try to project towniness a little more as scum. i'm content to give him a pass for today and let him cook i guess

i want to ponder hpe here but my gut is kind of telling me they're town still and jingle's defense of it just looks like it's coming from an informed to my eyes

jingle i just think is kind of scum because his case on me stinks, his perspective has been frozen in amber since page 4, it doesn't feel like he's truly attempting to evaluate or analyze anything people say, he just has a perspective he wants to push which is me/wgeurts being scum, regardless of how much sense it makes

porkens is prolly just scum cuz he's frozen and not playing the game

open chatgpt: viewtopic.php?t=90462 (again he's gimmicking for 13 posts or so, keep scrolling down and you'll see where he stops using chatgpt to write responses)
weird dreams mafia: viewtopic.php?t=90611 (it's a replace in, but, like, that game had a similarish number of posts to where this one is at now)

like he can be lazy and low effort at times but all available evidence from what i've seen is that as town he is capable of actually trying but as scum he barely cares

Got around to double checking some of his meta. He's capable of doing more as both alignments than he has shown here, but he does strike me as someone who needs more time to fake analysis / reads as scum:

Scum game 1

Spoiler:

Subject: Mini Theme 2155: SIN: This Impurity must be Cleansed!

I'm getting to this I swear to god

Is there a reason why you've yet to place a vote on anyone?

Yeah - I don't have a clue. I'll put something together tomorrow

As in I don't have any reads because I haven't even skimmed everything yet.

Scum game 2

Spoiler:

Subject: Micro 1061: If Trees Could Scream [Game Over]

PORKENS CAN YOU POST A LIST OF YOUR READS

VOTE: porkens

Fine gosh now I’ll actually have to read the ttread

Scum game 3

Spoiler:

Subject: Mini 2032: TAZ Mafia: Murder on the Rockport Limited [over]

The major thing I was basing Porkens off of was oh gamma is voting there and vice versa so probably town right
then I remembered gamma bussed everyone on his scumteam in my game and that porkens iso is still pretty awful

so maybe that's just the third and this game is really easy and we can all go home and drink wine

VOTE: porkens

no no stop

i promise I will start actually playing this game tomorrow.

please don't lynch me in the next 24 hours. I will read and post actual things

***

As scum, there's a general pattern of saying "I haven't been reading the game seriously yet" as an excuse for not having more serious thoughts or for having underdeveloped reads early in the game.

***

I don't doubt that he's busy when he wrote these posts, but playing scum requires more time to think about the game & that seems to be true for Porkens.

The same kind of posting is present this game too:

Spoiler:

Jeeze Louise of course just gut I haven’t read the game

The game was only on page 7 at this point lol - how long does it take to read the game?

Cause I gut your town and I haven’t read enough to c

I’m gunna read soon

“Tedious”? Dang.

Can you for once actually comment on the game, actually give thoughts on what's happening, instead of being obnoxious?

Soon. How am I being obnoxious?

Gonna sleep now as my first wall of text in years has drained me. I do want to note, not providing any insight as to where you stand and not committing to anything is not a playstyle difference.

Tell me who you like most, tell me who you lije least. I don't care about questions posed if you never follow up.

I’ll do it later

I didn't want to include this in the spoiler, because I think it's a good example of what I'm trying to express here. This interaction seemed like a bad dodge when asked a basic question of "who do you like / dislike" - that's the kind of question that really should not take that much time or consideration to answer.

---

He doesn't do this as town because all he has to do is post his genuine thoughts. It's hard to quote the absence of something, but here are some town games I looked at:

• viewtopic.php?sid=&f=53&t=89907&user_select%5B%5D=9469
  
• viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=90036&user_select%5B%5D=9469
  
• viewtopic.php?sid=&f=23&t=90462&user_select%5B%5D=9469 - he does say he was going to post a readslist later in this post, but before that he already had more game-related content. More importantly, he's not using this as an excuse for not having more serious content. In fact, he even says that "posts were a lightning rod that generated the majority of content in this game so far" earlier.
  
• viewtopic.php?p=13565215&f=51&t=90144&u ... #p13565215
  
• viewtopic.php?sid=&f=3&t=90611&user_select%5B%5D=9469

---

As a bonus, Porkens' vote in 163 also looks worse if HPE and wgeurts are indeed both town, which is kinda where I'm at.

VOTE: Porkens

So about half of the reason I didn't want to weigh in on this is that these two cases are like... the same case. CSF put more effort in and it's an overall sexier case, but the fact that no one has made this connection is just weird af to me.

Also I haven't wanted to actually metadive porken's activity to check for reasons he might be more busy than normal, counterexamples to preclude cherry picking, teammates and their likely impact, etc. But that's cause that's like the most tedious part of mafia, even moreso than exhaustive buddy analysis.

This is a true statement that answered the question of what peta and CSF are doing and why for me, they both find the same meta tell on Porkens compelling.

Okay so. I disagree with your assertion that wgeurts case is entirely because HPE is wrong on wgeurts. The case is about the progressions more so than the end results. I do agree that some of the content wgeurts presents is a stretch and certainly an overattribution of scum manipulation that is likely present if HPE is scum - as you said, it doesn't strike me as a mastermind.

All that said, overall I place the most weight on trajectory and timing, and that's the crux of the peta situation, which is actually more the center of the case than wgeurts themselves is. Again, this is without reading context and skimming, and the noted misunderstanding due to pronoun usage makes me concerned some of that misunderstanding is being reflected here - but if not, this is what makes the case plauible to me - HPE swapped it's read on Peta at a time that allowed for a momentum shift to occur against Peta, without giving a compelling reason for doing so.

Now, I need to actually go back and look at the timings to see if that was actually what wgeurts was saying, but it seemed like it was being implied? Overall, that's what I got out of the whole thing as the reasonable argument for HPE scum that remains.

Which is to say, for anyone who has been paying attention, HPE is still not part of the 1.5 slots I would object to limming today.

[Cerberus v666]

Eh fair, I assume it's technically 2.5 if you include myself. Jingle is the .5, wgeurts is the 1(as the only person who I explicitly said I was not interested in limming today). Perhaps it will help you all recognize this when I state that on D1, nothing is going to have more than a lean in either direction - so generally saying something is any amount more town than scum or vice versa is the equivalent of voting for someone or declaring them conftown, as far as interpreting strength of reads is concerned.

Wgeurts, you should know that, so I am a little curious why you are keeping up the pretext that I haven't expressed strong stances on anyone, when I've expressed enough that you, at least, should be able to pick.up what I've been putting down...which is that everyone else is not town enough to for me to fight for at this moment.

Also this post comes to you from a set by the band "Los Bitchos", they're pretty cool.

[Cerberus v666]

Jingle, remember how I said that the way to judge wgeurts is on the consistency and progression of the cases they make? Taken in that light, what impact does the wgeurts push on HPE have on your read of wgeurts?

[Cerberus v666]

Eh fair, I assume it's technically 2.5 if you include myself. Jingle is the .5, wgeurts is the 1(as the only person who I explicitly said I was not interested in limming today). Perhaps it will help you all recognize this when I state that on D1, nothing is going to have more than a lean in either direction - so generally saying something is any amount more town than scum or vice versa is the equivalent of voting for someone or declaring them conftown, as far as interpreting strength of reads is concerned.

Wgeurts, you should know that, so I am a little curious why you are keeping up the pretext that I haven't expressed strong stances on anyone, when I've expressed enough that you, at least, should be able to pick.up what I've been putting down...which is that everyone else is not town enough to for me to fight for at this moment.

Also this post comes to you from a set by the band "Los Bitchos", they're pretty cool.

Are you ranking players by numbers from town to not town? I was having a hard time following on what you were saying on this post.

Did you read my other posts?

[Cerberus v666]

Eh fair, I assume it's technically 2.5 if you include myself. Jingle is the .5, wgeurts is the 1(as the only person who I explicitly said I was not interested in limming today). Perhaps it will help you all recognize this when I state that on D1, nothing is going to have more than a lean in either direction - so generally saying something is any amount more town than scum or vice versa is the equivalent of voting for someone or declaring them conftown, as far as interpreting strength of reads is concerned.

Wgeurts, you should know that, so I am a little curious why you are keeping up the pretext that I haven't expressed strong stances on anyone, when I've expressed enough that you, at least, should be able to pick.up what I've been putting down...which is that everyone else is not town enough to for me to fight for at this moment.

Also this post comes to you from a set by the band "Los Bitchos", they're pretty cool.

Are you ranking players by numbers from town to not town? I was having a hard time following on what you were saying on this post.

Did you read my other posts?

I've read all of your posts and at times find myself getting lost on what you are saying.

Noted. I won't be making it any easier on you, but I will keep that in mind when evaluating your posts.

I said..twice, I believe, that there are 1.5 slots that I do not want limmed today. In the post that confused you, I corrected the count to 2.5 slots, to include myself. The 1.5 slot value of not-me slots who I am opposed to limming are wgeurts, who accounts for 1 of the 1.5 - I absolutely do not want them limmed, will not be voting for them, and will vigorously defend them, especially if nonsense cases are made that put them at 4 or 5 votes. The .5 is jingle, who I mind a lim attempt against enough to not vote for but who I am not convinced is the wrong person to lim, and who I will also defend against nonsense, but I probably won't try as hard.

Nobody else is town enough to defend.

[Cerberus v666]

Normally I'd tell you all to fuck off and talk to me when there's L-1 and intent and something resembling a case and get to actually being productive, but given the deadline and my own inconsistent availability over the next 24 hours...

I'm Mario. 3 shot JOAT. Investigative, protective, and utility.

The thing I was referencing in my first post but said I wasn't going to crumb but was ya know basically crumbing is the fact that I keep rolling "Main character" roles in theme games. Steven in Steven Universe Mafia, Malcolm Reynolds in Firefly, and a few more.

You don't get more details beyond the categories above, either that claim makes you all see sense or it doesn't. If it doesn't, please hold off on hammering until I can post my full set of thoughts before day end so you at least have that before I'm dead.

Also, Fate - reading comprehension. THROUGH is INCLUSIVE. This is the last day of my V/La because, you know, I'm spending it fucking driving.

[Cerberus v666]

Hello all. Full engagement is still like 12 hours away. I've missed a bunch of stuff, but did catch Jingle misunderstanding my stance on wgeurts.

Wgeurts town is in the approach. It's the consistency of the case, analysis of progression on slots, and adjustments made thereof. I understand that what you see is a tunnel on HPE, but I see wgeurts identifying behavior they find scummy, and remaining *internally* consistent in their application of these standards. HPE *hadn't* done anything that addressed wgeurts primary concerns, and *had* done things that perpetuated them, and so the read deepened.

Wgeurts interpretation of HPEs contributions may be uncharitable, but they are not dissembling in any way.

This, added to the massive read walls early on, which are effectively the biggest reach out to the game to help town see them and coalesce, is why I would rather no lim than lim wgeurts today. If their content, when it comes, continues in this vein, that won't change.

[Cerberus v666]

Hey Peta,I just skimmed your ISO because I couldn't recall anything you've done this game.

Where are you at with regards to Jingle? You stated earlier that Jingle/Porkens are your scum reads, which naturally implies that as a team, but later on you say that Porkens lack of presence, if scum, makes the game a bit harder because their teammate has abandoned them - thus implying that your other read isn't relevant/that you no longer scumread Jingles. What is the case there?

Also, with regards to my claim - LLD is correct, the situation was low pressure. As I said, I would have normally said fuck off, especially with Fates unvote(though that was arguably an attempt to get someone else to put me at -1 so Fate could lolhammer) but unfortunately there were too many players who I don't know well who hadn't voted yet, and some of those had shown a propensity for abrupt vote switching. Didn't really expect "pressure" to go away because nobody was interacting with me in that sort of fashion.
Anyways, I don't think LLD has any context with which to judge me if she's attributing any part of my play to a newbie misunderstanding of the game state, so might be worth taking that into account.

[Cerberus v666]

remaining *internally* consistent in their application of these standards. HPE *hadn't* done anything that addressed wgeurts primary concerns, and *had* done things that perpetuated them, and so the read deepened.

Is the assertion here that the tunnel wrt HPE is towny or NAI? Because I think it’s nonsense to argue that scum wgeurts wouldn’t dog with a bone on a slot that they could easily get away with dog with a bone-ing on.

More town than scum, especially given thest they've expressed stances in the entire game. The scum motivation behind the behavior you're describing is to avoid having to really comment or take a stance on anything else, which is not something wgeurts has avoided.

[Cerberus v666]

Jingle: Why do you think a universe exists where scum!me quick hammers to end the day? Literally part of why I don't vote D1 except to avoid no lim days is to make it last forever and get maximum content. Also...hmm. Had a thought, not the time to discuss in case I mess with whatever people are trying.

Fate, what is your porkens alternative? I agree that they are essentially policy at this point, which, while dumb, is better than rand.

[Cerberus v666]

I fundamentally disagree that posting other reads is a thing that precludes the scum motivation of a tunnel, because both not having to vote a scum buddy despite keeping them suspect and displaying consistency are things that scum also gets out of that, but I can at least understand that you think it’s town indicative of wgeurts and respect that read on its own merit is a genuine one. I’ll think more about how compelling I find it later.

This is why I said the read strength is dependent on them maintaining this sort of state. A scum slot that is not voting anyone else is being judged based on their suspicions and provided reads for all other slots, with votes being taken out of the equation. If those other reads continue to be regularly provided, reasonable progressions and reevaluation based on new information can be identified, which keeps the scum from just hiding behind their tunnel.

And I don't even think it's super compelling right now, by the way, but it's D1 and the most compelling argument in the game for anyone's alignment from my perspective, because standards are so low.

[Cerberus v666]

Jingle: Why do you think a universe exists where scum!me quick hammers to end the day? Literally part of why I don't vote D1 except to avoid no lim days is to make it last forever and get maximum content. Also...hmm. Had a thought, not the time to discuss in case I mess with whatever people are trying.

Fate, what is your porkens alternative? I agree that they are essentially policy at this point, which, while dumb, is better than rand.

I'm voting wgeurts, I'd be down for Adorable PREFERABLY and then I'd settle on HPE for principle

Wgeurts is off the table for me, I'd hammer adorable or HPE, if you're trying to gauge support.

quote=Jingle post_id=13753103 time=1682432583 user_id=22133]

Jingle: Why do you think a universe exists where scum!me quick hammers to end the day?

Because if you are scum banking on a joat claim to save you for a night and expect you die tomorrow it’s the right play to cut off discussion and porkens softed a pr?
[/quote]

I'm shocked that you think that scum!me makes a fake claim that is only intended to buy me a night, which is the only context in which that actually makes sense.

Maybe it's just my better understanding of myself, but that doesn't make any sense to me, but I guess I can see it from an outsiders perspective. Alright. Paranoia sorta accepted.

[Cerberus v666]

Fate, real talk: how much of your defense of porkens is desire to play with them, rather than an actual town read?

Pedit: Oh I know you're calling for votes, but you won't get your votes if people can't count to 6 on one of those.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerbs, do you remember overkill one? It was a A50 game where I literally broke the game based on flavor on d1, and I’m pretty sure you were unfortunate scum in an unbalanced setup. I then spent several days consecutively limming scum and making micro optimizations despite the game being functionally unwinnable for the scum team because I don’t discount anything. Ever.

That was one of my referenced MC games, Drixx and I were Mal, so yes, I do remember it, though I think it was more that the flavor cop results were basically cop results with day checks. And you were a mason. So there were 4 conftown on D1. But sure, give yourself all the credit. :p

Mmm, must be getting rusty, don't see how Porkens softing a PR counterclaims my own claim, but okay.

[Cerberus v666]

I also don't think Porkens is softing for what it's worth, particularly given their later statements about being better late game. Just reads that they will contribute more later, regardless of powers or not.

[Cerberus v666]

So as a note, if the day doesn't end in the next 12 hours, I'll be home and will endeavor to get some analysis out there on everyone before there's any risk of me not getting the chance to do so tomorrow. So, that would be nice, as annoying as having to do that to end my trip would be.

[Cerberus v666]

VOTE: peta, btw

Oh, I'd also hammer this btw.

Especially because they're ignoring my question. But maybe they just didn't see it.

[Cerberus v666]

Jingle position currently, to keep it simple. You had porkens and Jingle at the bottom of your reads list, but later on you said that porkens lack of associatives was going to make this harder, which implies that your read has changed on Jingle or that you don't think a jingle/porkens scum team is a thing.

Fate: I count 3 for Peta, 4 if you include survivalist vote from porkens, 5 for the same from adorable, and a number of undecideds who would probably be equally willing to go to there as porkens.

[Cerberus v666]

Jingle position currently, to keep it simple. You had porkens and Jingle at the bottom of your reads list, but later on you said that porkens lack of associatives was going to make this harder, which implies that your read has changed on Jingle or that you don't think a jingle/porkens scum team is a thing.

Fate: I count 3 for Peta, 4 if you include survivalist vote from porkens, 5 for the same from adorable, and a number of undecideds who would probably be equally willing to go to there as porkens.

Unsure if momentum if there though I suppose, but just noting that the game is far more willing to go for peta than you're trying to say Fate.

[Cerberus v666]

Jingle position currently, to keep it simple. You had porkens and Jingle at the bottom of your reads list, but later on you said that porkens lack of associatives was going to make this harder, which implies that your read has changed on Jingle or that you don't think a jingle/porkens scum team is a thing.

Fate: I count 3 for Peta, 4 if you include survivalist vote from porkens, 5 for the same from adorable, and a number of undecideds who would probably be equally willing to go to there as porkens.

Holy shit peta fucking read. Lol. What is your position on Jingle/explain that progression above. Thank you.

[Cerberus v666]

I get that people are trying to protect their town reads and that consolidating the wagons is the correct thing to do, but trying to spin all the counterwagon options as non-viable is annoying dumb and wrong. Given the choice of no-lim or lim slot x, all but the most devoted of people with a town read on slot x will vote them.

Also I am being a passenger right now while the gf drives. Hi!

[Cerberus v666]

Given the choice of no-lim or lim slot x, all but the most devoted of people with a town read on slot x will vote them.

But that’s not the choice. The choice is porkens or slot x. There are already 6 people willing to lim porkens, so no lim isn’t actually a concern.

Yep, but that doesn't change the fact that people are overselling how non-viable their pet town reads are at this point. Which isn't really AI yet, but is annoying the fuck out of me because it's objectively wrong.

[Cerberus v666]

Adorable do you just get pinged by people implying you're scummy? You did it to me. And now that Fate is proposing you as the cw to porkens, you're doing it to fate.

?????

[Cerberus v666]

Adorable do you just get pinged by people implying you're scummy? You did it to me. And now that Fate is proposing you as the cw to porkens, you're doing it to fate.

?????

I often do get pinged by players who are in my poe who try to go after me. At times I feel like I am a magnet that gets scum to vote me.

Well that's some post ipso facto bullshit.

You should try to be better.

[Cerberus v666]

fwiw what peta said makes sense to me... a less brazen scum player would probably bus Porken in this situation while someone like you would conceivably not because you can talk your way out of it

That’s explicitly not the narrative though.

The narrative is that I’m incompetent.

you might have to spell this one out for me, because I didn't get that impression

That's pretty clearly the narrative. Peta even said that Jingles scum reads should be considered cop clears.

Obvious intent to paint Jingles as incompetent.

[Cerberus v666]

fwiw what peta said makes sense to me... a less brazen scum player would probably bus Porken in this situation while someone like you would conceivably not because you can talk your way out of it

That’s explicitly not the narrative though.

The narrative is that I’m incompetent.

you might have to spell this one out for me, because I didn't get that impression

That's pretty clearly the narrative. Peta even said that Jingles scum reads should be considered cop clears.

Obvious intent to paint Jingles as incompetent.

That's implying incompetent town, not incompetent scum, which is the scenario we were talking about

Hmm, perhaps I need to reread that post, but I was pretty sure peta outright stated that jingle is bad town if they're not scum as part of the same post where they said jingles scum reads are cop clears. Seems...like a clear connection. Maybe wrong, am mobile and semi-skimming.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb, what'd you do last night?

Something productive.

If nothing in the game occurs to prompt me doing so sooner, I'll likely share in ~96 hours, to see if there's anything more that can be gleaned from the information I have.

[Cerberus v666]

If nothing in the game occurs to prompt me doing so sooner, I'll likely share in ~96 hours, to see if there's anything more that can be gleaned from the information I have.

You mean like the game mechanic that says "Hey, it's important that you out any useful results before 48 hours so that we can use those results in deciding who is a commute tonight?"

Massclaim today.

I'd prefer to see how both these things are handled organically, without information, for *at least* some amount of time.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb is softing that he has a conditional result, thus would like time to figure out what it means. A role that should get a result but didn't would make sense in that context.

Yep.

My investigative is a vanilla cop, and it returned that Adorable *wasn't* vanilla, which meant it didn't clear her for probtown(since it's unlikely a goon exists here with the starting numbers.)

Since Adorable went ahead and claimed, however, if she's telling the truth there's no longer any value in concealing the result.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb is softing that he has a conditional result, thus would like time to figure out what it means. A role that should get a result but didn't would make sense in that context.

Yep.

My investigative is a vanilla cop, and it returned that Adorable *wasn't* vanilla, which meant it didn't clear her for probtown(since it's unlikely a goon exists here with the starting numbers.)

Since Adorable went ahead and claimed, however, if she's telling the truth there's no longer any value in concealing the result.

Why did you use the vanilla cop on me when I softed pr on page 11?

Because I didn't think you could be so incompetent as to make that soft as town, especially with people like GiF advising you, and figured the only way you were town was if you were a VT making a gambit to draw the NK. Since you looked to be a likely lim for today, I figured I could hedge my bets and if you were vanilla that would prevent the mislim, and if you weren't we'd likely have scum - but I did want some wagon data to happen before I made that stance of mine clear.

[Cerberus v666]

My remaining shots are a 1x roleblock and a 1x BP. BP is an active action. Strongman is almost guaranteed given both of those powers.

Adorable, RR's question is very important. The key distinction here is whether your bodyguard is being interpreted as a redirect, where all the/at least one of the shots that go to your target are redirected to you, or if there are two independent effects, one where you give someone protection, and a second where you die if the protected person is targeted with a killing effect.

In the first scenario, I would expect the tanooki suit to save you(enabling a cross protect between you and RR), while in the second scum could just shoot at rr to kill you if they wanted, and if they have a strongman they could also pierce your protection to get two kills.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb fought against claiming and peaced. He’s done basically nothing since.

This is somewhat inaccurate. I fought against claiming my investigation result first thing in the day/before any conversation happened, and then yes, I have not contributed since. I have been tied up with RL/not been home to actually engage after having finished ISOing RR and Adorable yesterday. I expect to finish up things with everyone by tomorrow morning at the latest. The cliff's notes on RR and Adorable is essentially RR looks extremely good, progressions are good, questions and follow ups are good. Adorable has some contradictions in play/unexplained read transitions towards the latter half of today. Barring me noticing anything absurd/good points others brought up that remained unaddressed and remain strong, RR is confidently town and Adorable is a town lean.

Wgeurts, to be clear, I haven't even engaged with the mechanical speculation, even though from what I can tell it's being used as part of an ongoing push against my slot - and you know I love nothing more than destroying shitty cases. Take from that what you may.

I'll be working on things starting at 7 MST tonight, and will be around to talk actively.

[Cerberus v666]

With regards to Adorable - "latter half of today" should be "latter half of yesterday".

[Cerberus v666]

I'm here and only 14 hours late!

So this is what I'm going to be doing - I went through Adorable's and RR's ISO's through end of D1, I'll do the same for everyone else, and then I'll be reading/re-reading D2 and get to the mech stuff.

Adorable's D1:

40 null all
47 wgeurts, jingle, cerb, peta interact=null
48 asked peta why they thought a jingle post was scummy
66 waffle jingle
225 dislikes fates naked HPE vote, dislikes Cerbs questions/sees them as useless, HPE is null/town lhf
283 votes fate
322 jingle town because of vibes and mech talk and reevaluation
427 lost in the game
527 read walls about peta nad hpe, their actions look nai
529 asks wgeurts about HPE scum partner
536 jingle/wgeurts town lean, cerb scum(omgus)
581 /615 cerb vote because he said shady stuff, okay with cerb and porkens wagons
619 dislikes meta read on porkens
694 - GIF(teammate) TR's CSF, Fate, and Porkens, Adorable TR CSF, null Fate and Pork
703 /721 OMGUS on porkens
728 accuses fate of making things up
761 questions why cerb as mario wouldn't be town
766 unvotes cerb
767 votes porkens
958 fate scum due to porkens defense
991 porkens looks scummy, thinks fate might have TMI
993 asks for jingles case
1006 floats Porkens/Fate team
1048 noted fate contradicting themselves by going after lhf after saying scum aren't there
1050 asks peta to respond to her jingle read from 322

Adorable's ISO and play this game is, from my perspective, characterized by omgus - at least for all of D1. Anyone who floats her as scum or describes any of her actions as scummy is immediately painted as scummy and placed under closer scrutiny by her - and she does this to everyone. I generally find this sort of behavior to be innately scummy, as having no case for anything other than people suspecting you makes it pretty easy to both fail to truly commit to anything, and this also generates your content for yourself. The inconsistency I mentioned earlier comes from her play around Fate's slot - namely, she mentions various concerns about fate, but doesn't really press him on them, and simultaneously thinks that fate is WK'ing Porkens and is scum with TMI, but also thinks porkens is scum, and then also floats a Porkens/Fate scum team. With no regard given to the contradictions inherent in that entire line of reasoning. This is actually the towniest part of her ISO imo, given the type of player I'm seeing presented here. Generally, only town are so completely oblivious to not making fucking sense. Also of note is the complete absence of RR and Peta in her reads and interactions(that she initiates at least) in D1. In an Adorable scum universe, I would expect one of RR/Peta to be the teammate.

With that said, the omgus'ing thing can be bad town, and bad town also do completely oblivious things like contradict themselves. More likely town than not, but some of her actions do hold scum potential.

Adorable: Can you please elaborate on your position on both RR and Peta, and let me know how you got to wherever you are with them? Also, where are you with regards to fate now? Did the Porkens flip make you more or less suspicious of Fate?

pedit: Fate, I skimmed their ISO, and I guess I'll include that slot in this set of analysis, at least to make sure I'm not missing any important reads. Strongest scum read expressed were on you, Fate, and Porkens. Had Adorable, Peta, RR, HPE, and wgeurts as null-townish, and had Jingle and myself as null.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb, while you're here I'd like you to talk about your check a bit.

You said before that you assumed Adorable would only softclaim as Town if she were pulling an NK bait gambit, and that's why you checked her.

Has the knowledge of her being loved changed this thinking for you?

Oh hey the person who I'm actually writing up things on right now!

The powers of being loved are twofold. One, you are publicly verifiable - which may or may not give the game a mechanical reason to clear you, regardless of your true alignment. Two, you can foil quickhammers and use the role to fake twilight posting, which might be enough to get votes on to scum and save a game(particular in setups where scum have the potential to quickhammer+double NK into a win and basically openly claim with their hammer).

I don't think either of those benefits are particularly relevant to claiming the double vote. I can get wanting the double vote, particularly as scum!adorable, as it effectively negates the loved modifier - but I don't think that's a good enough reason for town!adorable to soft their role.

Actually, the entire play around the powerup is kind of confusing to me. There's a concerned effort, in the form of softing mech needs, to get the powerup, but there isn't actual/active campaigning. People don't put a number of votes towards that for her, and she just doesn't push it. As either alignment, I really don't know what a loved (x) Adorable is really trying to accomplish with their behavior there.

Hmm. Actually, an argument could be made that a bodyguard adorable is equally happy being shot directly, or redirecting a shot, so I suppose the PR soft is...more reasonable of an action for an actual PR to take than I was giving her credit for yesterday/last night.

While I'm finishing up the analysis on you, RR, who do I ISO next? I was planning on just going through shortest ISO's first so I can get as many slots done as possible in case something comes up today, but if there are priorities people want to see I can do that instead.

pedit: Because I have a very strong grasp of the game state, knew that there was a high likelihood that I would be on the chopping block today, and expected any reasonable scum to also see that. I also expected that if I weathered attempts at eliminating me today, despite claiming an investigative action that was more likely to come from scum than town in a void, it would be because I had actually played the game the way I do and town'd up so much that I would be at risk of being shot at tonight - so the BP was reserved for that.

back to RR writeup, but I'll be refreshing my other window every few minutes and trying to respond to things.

[Cerberus v666]

RR D1 ISO (I should probably note that I am only capturing posts that I view as significant - it is possible that there is meat in fluff somewhere that I haven't included in this post)

54 Vote Jingle for rephrasing their mech question/accuses the rephrase of being a shade cast
65 wgeurts performative in posting, NAI
79 Doens't liek voting Jingle, doesn't know where to go
96 Votes CSF, accuses of pocketing
114 Klick TR Adorable, Porkens, Jingle, RR TR Jingle Null Porkens Adorable
132 Explains CSF is defending wgeurts too strongly, implies they think wgeurts is town/CSF scum there
164 asks wgeurts for reads wall details
210 Asked because wgeurts having comprehensive reads on every slot feels forced, notes all reads except CSF are leans
223 HPE play is town-meta
305 Cerb is not passing vibe check, no details/ability toi give details
345 Fate town, genuine and self-interested, would be 3p if it was an option
368 Fate is emotional and reactive, and stream of consciousness, and that makes them genuine
370 Deliberated posts are easier to fake, adn it's hard to fake fluid and spontaneous stuff, but deliberate does not equal fake or scummy, comfy with jingle town
399 Response to meta knowledge of a players style that must have come from someone who is teammates with someone who knows them, was also suspicous of peta for avoiding doing content
405 Still thinks peta's scum, meta situation is not as strong
573 townlean on HPE personally, doens't care to appear about how it's posts appear, but this is not a meta read
612 feels peta is waffling on HPE
632 Questions HPE on their lack of reads
646 Tiered reads Jingle/Wgeurts; Adorable/Fate; HPE/////Porkens; Cerb/Peta; CSF, okay with anyone after the ////, except maybe porkens because SR is the push origin
649 CSF SR still comes from the wgeurts defense, only "clearly scummy" thing they've seen, other just aren't doing "town" things
657 CSF defense does not match the way RR perceived the wgeurts interaction
719 Votes Cerb, E-1
763 Post cerb claim, unvotes cerb and is going to go to porkens most likely
770 Votes Porkens, teammates disagree on CSF read which was only reservation(perhaps prior reads were lower than the rating I gave them? below town may be scum, ratrher than null)
819 Cerb verifiable claim(reading as null), wgeurts off the table, CSF and peta scum(team opposes)
829 wgeurts scum due to overanalysis early game, but logic was reasonable and meta upheld, HPE "catch" looked genuine
875 Questions fate about difference between settling for HPE and policy voting Porkens
903 fully in favor of porkens lim

This feels kind of like a cop-out, honestly, but I don't see any scummy behaviors from RR's ISO. At all. I see consistent questioning of many game relevant details. I see progression on slot reads based on their posting, and those progressions are reasonable. I see multiple scum-reads, and a very town reluctance to pursue the push on the weaker SR because the stronger one is the source of the other support for that wagon. The closest thing to scummy, overall, is the overall characterization of most of D1's actions as simply not being town enough - but honestly, that's basically the sort of waffling/lack of real commitment to reads that I get SR for on D1 constantly, and I can see it being a town mindset and read on the game.

Doing towny things, responding in towny ways, not doing scummy things, solidly town.

RR: I really should have asked this yesterday, but for clarification - does "fluid and spontaneous" equal town to you? You said the opposite doesn't equal scum, but didn't really clarify fully. This is obviously a bit late in the day, but what effect did CSF flipping town have on your reads? That was your only confident SR(alongside maybe Peta, it's kind of unclear whether Peta has sunk down to the level of CSF in your end of D1 posting), even though your team disagreed.

[Cerberus v666]

I'd say ISO either peta or HPE next, though if you're planning on doing the whole list eventually it's not super important what the order is.

Now then, personally I find Adorable's claim to gel pretty well with wanting a double vote specifically, especially given it was a teammate's suggestion. While a hypothetical scum!loved would have similar motivation, I don't think it'd be worth making a show of it when you already kinda have the guaranteed safety net of a partner.

But of course that wasn't known at the time you would have submitted your action, which leads to my follow-up though Jingle beat me to the punch somewhat.

I was also going to ask why you'd opt for using a relatively low-power investigative over the BP when you were the only properly claimed PR going into the night. And your answer to that was interesting, and not what I expected. Why did you think you'd be on the chopping block today? Why were you so confident scum wouldn't shoot someone claiming to have both investigative and protective power, with an elimination attempt that already fell through once?

Got it, will do peta next, then HPE. And yes, I do plan on doing everyone, it just...takes time(which I have, at least during the day, for this week).

I expected to be on the chopping block today because the drivers of my previous wagon variously spoke ominously about my claim as either something that made me MORE likely to be scum, or something that bought me a day, without much in the way of vocal town reads coming from the game state at that point. Absence of strong defenders+persistent attackers=likely to be a contender for being lim'd today. That's perfectly fine generally - being scumread by at least half the game for most of the game is essentially a goal of mine, and so far I think I've only ever been shot by scum once in any game - so I suppose the confidence just comes from the fact that, even when I've claimed things very much worth being shot at, I simply haven't been historically because my posting generally reads as scummy to *many* people. I also don't believe I gave strong enough impressions of scum or town reads on anyone for any scum team to be particularly afraid of me investigating them in particular -which is the only reason why I'd expect there to be any chance of scum going after me.

Got it with regards to the CSF situation - does CSF town preclude peta scum then, to you? I need to review the claimed sequence of actions with regards to you and fate, that's part of the mech stuff I'll be getting to later, but I doubt Fate has actually asked the right questions about how their ability works if the claim is true, and I also have severe doubts that the mod would confirm whether or not an ability which has returned a "failure to detect" type result was stopped by something. Fate, even as town, is a liar who is not above doing so to get the results he's pushing for. *shrug*

[Cerberus v666]

I doubt Fate has actually asked the right questions about how their ability works if the claim is true, and I also have severe doubts that the mod would confirm whether or not an ability which has returned a "failure to detect" type result was stopped by something. Fate, even as town, is a liar who is not above doing so to get the results he's pushing for. *shrug*

Do you have a game you can point to where Fate has done something like that? Because I'm not really willing to entertain the idea of someone being Town and deliberately lying about mod interactions otherwise.

And I do think that there's a noteworthy difference between a negative result and no result. You wouldn't expect a roleblocked Cop to get an innocent result, and even for things like Tracker/Watcher, "Your target did not visit/was not visited by anyone" implies a success of the action. And at the very least I would expect a mod to say if a negative result would appear the same as a failed action, even though in that case they wouldn't say which happened.

Pretty sure Fate suggested that fake claiming as town was on the table for them in this very game. That is a mod interaction. If I could point to a game, any details have been lost to me not playing for the last four years, unfortunately. And yep, understandable for you to not want to entertain town lying as likely, but it happens, especially with players with particularly forceful personalities. Yeah, I would expect a difference in results between a blocked investigative and a negative one. Which is why I need to review the whole situation. The exact verbiage used, as much as Fate can paraphrase it, is important.

[Cerberus v666]

Hey cerb, feel free to keep going anytime.

Oh I am, I just forgot how much work actually going through ISO's that are wordy+lengthy is and ran out of time yesterday, about halfway through peta's ISO.

[Cerberus v666]

Well I don't think I can quote mod communication so I'm paraphrasing

It didn't say explicitly my action resolved or went through

But it said that I didn't detect any paranormal activity

Which is different than the 'no result's I'd expect if I was RBd or something


Does your role stop bodyguards and town actions and everything also?

Fate, have you explicitly asked SC what response you would get if you were roleblocked when you investigated someone?

Because I know I didn't RB last night(a blind RB(even on a softed PR) isn't even something scum!me would do, but there's no reason you would believe that), and that means unless there's a scum RB as well, your ability should have been blocked by RR's power.

Which means in the case where you're both town and RR was not blocked or otherwise interfered with, YOU are misreading or misinterpreting or mis'something'ing your results.

Hell, do you even know how your ability works? Is it effectively a motion detector for specifically paranormal activity? Is it a cop for flavor/roles that are related to paranormal activity? Is it only a watcher, or only a tracker, for again, paranormal activities? Do you have answers to any of these questions?

I get that you and others suspect me for play on D1 and disagree with my NA choice, but if the nail in my coffin, as it were, is you misunderstanding how your role works and you refuse to go get informed, I don't see sufficient reason to continue spending hours going through ISO's and so on and will just read through this day and update things in a half-assed(to me) fashion and we can go from there.

I also have a comment about the power level evaluation of this game - rolestopper is, in my opinion, explicitly used in place of a doctor in circumstances under which the mod wants to allow "follow the cop" type play, while causing the rolestopper to have some degree of NU for the town prior to mass claim/action coordination occurring, as they can interfere with the other PR's. That innately decreases the power level of the entire town. if I, Fate, CSF, or HPE(if they end up with tracker as they claim they did) target the same person as RR, that night action is also wasted, and the trackers power and my powers can't just be tried again the next night, so the loss is significant. If Adorable targets the same person, then she doesn't die despite claiming an action that should have saved someone else, and the slot becomes mislim bait at worst, and is forced to out itself in a non-mass claim world at least.

I'm going to go back to working on Peta's thing while also interspersing doing so with enjoying my life so I don't burn out.

[Cerberus v666]

At the end there you suggest Adorable would be mislimmed for not saving her target, but her target wouldn't be dead either in that case.

That is true! I suppose she doesn't become mislim bait in that case since you'd saved the person, and since you saved them she would have no idea what happened and wouldn't out herself.

Fair points.

[Cerberus v666]

Your coffin was sealed before any of the me and RR role interactions or nonsense happened, so it's not really a point worth defending about.

I get that it's frustrating to be limmed when you as scum know the real reason behind why RR and and mine results are what they are

So to clarify, you are refusing to ask the mod how your role actually works/what your results would look like under different circumstances? Or you know, and you're refusing to elaborate?

[Cerberus v666]

Spoiler:

I'm Luigi, Ghost Hunter

I can detect if paranormal activity happens around a target. None happened around Cerberus last night

Therefore RR is at the very least not Ghost.


WHICH IM GUESSING means the scumteam is King Boo and Bowser. Would be very surprised if not the case, so my role is either a red herring useless thing or confirms non ghosts.


So yeah

Do your dirty thing Jingle. I expect great things, it's not for everyone I pass up an opportunity to fake claim as town

When you say "nothing happened" does that mean you received an affirmative result that there was no activity?

I was confirmed my action resolved and that I did not detect any paranormal activity

Then something's gone wrong somewhere, or you're lying

Me targeting Cerb means no one should have resolved any other actions on him

Well I don't think I can quote mod communication so I'm paraphrasing

It didn't say explicitly my action resolved or went through

But it said that I didn't detect any paranormal activity

Which is different than the 'no result's I'd expect if I was RBd or something


Does your role stop bodyguards and town actions and everything also?

Watcher usually resolves last so it can y'know watch things

So maybe you resolve right before me to stop everything above the chain

It says all actions targeting the player, so I assume that includes Town, yes.

I also believe that a proper negative result should be distinct from a no result.

But that's something you'll have to ask Cakez about

K I'll pm him, but RR I don't know what shenanigans are around but don't 1v1 me or anything drastic while I'm vla ok

Like I don't think as scum you'd out yourself in this way to 1v1 me, and since I got to go last as scum my fakeclaim would be solid LIKE CERBERUS HERE WHO CLAIMED AFTER ADORABLE

I'm not 1v1ing anything yet

If anything my instinct here is actually to look at Cerb...

Mod confirmed my action went through

VOTE: Cerberus I'll leave this here

Here's the full interaction from Fate claiming the result to claiming to have confirmed with the mod.

The first post is interpreting the result as a soft inno on me, which means Fate did see where I claimed to have targeted you, and chose to claim results anyway.
The questioning around resolution order or if I only block scum actions is strange, but seems to come from a place of genuinely figuring out why they have results.
Me telling them to ask directly about whether they'd receive the same message if blocked was an opportunity for Fate to back down from the conflict, and they did the opposite.

Unless Fate has a history of just pulling this kind of thing out of their ass, I'm not seeing this as a possible lying Town situation. Either Fate is telling the truth, which is how it looks to me, or Fate's lying as scum.

This one

At no point in that does Fate actually ask the specific question that I requested he ask. It seems unlikely that he's a "paranormal cop", but it is unclear if he's a paranormal motion detector, or a paranormal watcher vs tracker. Like, I don't think any of those things are actually relevant except for asking what his results would be if he were roleblocked, but they ARE important things he should want to know.

I'm actually fairly certain that, barring scum RB'ing you RR, Fate is 100% lying about their role and/or action and claimed the results that would directly implicate me because of my RB claim.

I'm also pretty sure he does that as town more often than he does so as scum. *shrug*

[Cerberus v666]

Spoiler:

I'm Luigi, Ghost Hunter

I can detect if paranormal activity happens around a target. None happened around Cerberus last night

Therefore RR is at the very least not Ghost.


WHICH IM GUESSING means the scumteam is King Boo and Bowser. Would be very surprised if not the case, so my role is either a red herring useless thing or confirms non ghosts.


So yeah

Do your dirty thing Jingle. I expect great things, it's not for everyone I pass up an opportunity to fake claim as town

When you say "nothing happened" does that mean you received an affirmative result that there was no activity?

I was confirmed my action resolved and that I did not detect any paranormal activity

Then something's gone wrong somewhere, or you're lying

Me targeting Cerb means no one should have resolved any other actions on him

Well I don't think I can quote mod communication so I'm paraphrasing

It didn't say explicitly my action resolved or went through

But it said that I didn't detect any paranormal activity

Which is different than the 'no result's I'd expect if I was RBd or something


Does your role stop bodyguards and town actions and everything also?

Watcher usually resolves last so it can y'know watch things

So maybe you resolve right before me to stop everything above the chain

It says all actions targeting the player, so I assume that includes Town, yes.

I also believe that a proper negative result should be distinct from a no result.

But that's something you'll have to ask Cakez about

K I'll pm him, but RR I don't know what shenanigans are around but don't 1v1 me or anything drastic while I'm vla ok

Like I don't think as scum you'd out yourself in this way to 1v1 me, and since I got to go last as scum my fakeclaim would be solid LIKE CERBERUS HERE WHO CLAIMED AFTER ADORABLE

I'm not 1v1ing anything yet

If anything my instinct here is actually to look at Cerb...

Mod confirmed my action went through

VOTE: Cerberus I'll leave this here

Here's the full interaction from Fate claiming the result to claiming to have confirmed with the mod.

The first post is interpreting the result as a soft inno on me, which means Fate did see where I claimed to have targeted you, and chose to claim results anyway.
The questioning around resolution order or if I only block scum actions is strange, but seems to come from a place of genuinely figuring out why they have results.
Me telling them to ask directly about whether they'd receive the same message if blocked was an opportunity for Fate to back down from the conflict, and they did the opposite.

Unless Fate has a history of just pulling this kind of thing out of their ass, I'm not seeing this as a possible lying Town situation. Either Fate is telling the truth, which is how it looks to me, or Fate's lying as scum.

This one

At no point in that does Fate actually ask the specific question that I requested he ask. It seems unlikely that he's a "paranormal cop", but it is unclear if he's a paranormal motion detector, or a paranormal watcher vs tracker. Like, I don't think any of those things are actually relevant except for asking what his results would be if he were roleblocked, but they ARE important things he should want to know.

I'm actually fairly certain that, barring scum RB'ing you RR, Fate is 100% lying about their role and/or action and claimed the results that would directly implicate me because of my RB claim.

I'm also pretty sure he does that as town more often than he does so as scum. *shrug*

I should clarify - I don't think they're actually relevant for the interactions and results for last night, that is, since he's claiming he saw no paranormal activity from me. If he were claiming he saw paranormal activity and trying to use that as a guilty, than the clarification would be important.

[Cerberus v666]

Spoiler:

I'm Luigi, Ghost Hunter

I can detect if paranormal activity happens around a target. None happened around Cerberus last night

Therefore RR is at the very least not Ghost.


WHICH IM GUESSING means the scumteam is King Boo and Bowser. Would be very surprised if not the case, so my role is either a red herring useless thing or confirms non ghosts.


So yeah

Do your dirty thing Jingle. I expect great things, it's not for everyone I pass up an opportunity to fake claim as town

When you say "nothing happened" does that mean you received an affirmative result that there was no activity?

I was confirmed my action resolved and that I did not detect any paranormal activity

Then something's gone wrong somewhere, or you're lying

Me targeting Cerb means no one should have resolved any other actions on him

Well I don't think I can quote mod communication so I'm paraphrasing

It didn't say explicitly my action resolved or went through

But it said that I didn't detect any paranormal activity

Which is different than the 'no result's I'd expect if I was RBd or something


Does your role stop bodyguards and town actions and everything also?

Watcher usually resolves last so it can y'know watch things

So maybe you resolve right before me to stop everything above the chain

It says all actions targeting the player, so I assume that includes Town, yes.

I also believe that a proper negative result should be distinct from a no result.

But that's something you'll have to ask Cakez about

K I'll pm him, but RR I don't know what shenanigans are around but don't 1v1 me or anything drastic while I'm vla ok

Like I don't think as scum you'd out yourself in this way to 1v1 me, and since I got to go last as scum my fakeclaim would be solid LIKE CERBERUS HERE WHO CLAIMED AFTER ADORABLE

I'm not 1v1ing anything yet

If anything my instinct here is actually to look at Cerb...

Mod confirmed my action went through

VOTE: Cerberus I'll leave this here

Here's the full interaction from Fate claiming the result to claiming to have confirmed with the mod.

The first post is interpreting the result as a soft inno on me, which means Fate did see where I claimed to have targeted you, and chose to claim results anyway.
The questioning around resolution order or if I only block scum actions is strange, but seems to come from a place of genuinely figuring out why they have results.
Me telling them to ask directly about whether they'd receive the same message if blocked was an opportunity for Fate to back down from the conflict, and they did the opposite.

Unless Fate has a history of just pulling this kind of thing out of their ass, I'm not seeing this as a possible lying Town situation. Either Fate is telling the truth, which is how it looks to me, or Fate's lying as scum.

This one

At no point in that does Fate actually ask the specific question that I requested he ask. It seems unlikely that he's a "paranormal cop", but it is unclear if he's a paranormal motion detector, or a paranormal watcher vs tracker. Like, I don't think any of those things are actually relevant except for asking what his results would be if he were roleblocked, but they ARE important things he should want to know.

I'm actually fairly certain that, barring scum RB'ing you RR, Fate is 100% lying about their role and/or action and claimed the results that would directly implicate me because of my RB claim.

I'm also pretty sure he does that as town more often than he does so as scum. *shrug*

I should clarify - I don't think they're actually relevant for the interactions and results for last night, that is, since he's claiming he saw no paranormal activity from me. If he were claiming he saw paranormal activity and trying to use that as a guilty, than the clarification would be important.

Clarifying the clarification - the specific question he failed to ask was what result he would get if he were roleblocked. He just said the mod confirmed his action "went through".

pedit: just outright saying what exactly?

[Cerberus v666]

"I received a result that should be impossible, you must have been roleblocked" or something like that. Why faff about with questions over resolution order, or clarifying explicit negative results with the mod, if all of those conclusions were already made up?

To make it a non-explicit 1v1? If he outright says you must have been roleblocked, he's the driver of that conclusion instead of letting other people get there on there own so he isn't shouting into the void himself? Because he's fate and doesn't always do things the simple way? Like, I can't explain why Fate would approach something this way, or think why this is a more effective way to approach something at least. I just know I didn't roleblock last night, so a roleblock from me isn't in play, which means even scum redirection of some sort can't explain the results - it has to be additional roleblocking from scum, OR fate being wrong/lying about results. It's also possible that you're scum lying about your own actions and so on, but you're far more likely to be town than basically everyone else, and your role functions as a doctor and was claimed before everyone else claimed, so a CC claim from another directed protective role exists, so *shrug* that's sort of a thing that I'm putting in the very low probability space.

[Cerberus v666]

What I'm trying to figure out here is why you don't seem to really be considering Fate as scum. It's always been that Fate's Town lying to frame you, when from your perspective I'd expect you to be scumreading at least one of us.

If Fate is lying, they've at least gone the extra mile to make it look as real as possible, and while that could theoretically come from a very conscientious scum, that kind of ass covering isn't something I expect from overconfident Town faking a claim for the lulz.

From where I'm sitting it looks an awful lot like you know you're losing in the "at least one scum in Cerb/RR/Fate" fight, and so are grasping for a way to sell it as TvTvT and get us to eliminate someone else.

Because whoever said fate scum putting themselves into the center of all this makes no sense is right? Like yes, fate can do weird shit, but with all the options available from claiming last, jumping into this specifically to frame me also falls into that miniscule probability space.

Wgeurts: that's not necessarily true. It's entirely possible that I won't end up with strong scum reads based on the behaviors of the other slots, which means it's the "least town" who are the PoE. Nobody is really so Town that there's no way they're scum except maybe RR, from what i've seen - the fate situation is a single item, not a comprehensive overview, and is therefore not nearly certain enough.

Since you and Jingle are my strongest TRs from D1 the people of most interest to me are Peta/HPE which is why those are the ISOs I'm doing next.

I suppose I could assume my trs are good without further examination and look at those three in context of one another and see if a team is viable, not sure if that will really save me much time or is actually an effective approach. :/

[Cerberus v666]

My analysis here/attention being paid to all posts may have dropped off partway through. *sigh*

Spoiler: peta's posts of note, mostly

12 Vote RR(RVS)
33 Vote Jingle, naked
41 Jingle vote isn't very serious(page 2)
45 Dunn(teammate) thinks post 19 from Jingle was scummy
70 Would give adorable double vote(reading as (TL)
87 Asks for info on Jingles wgeurts SR
90 Questions jingles P4 reads list
97 Thinks Jingles reads list might be trying to hard/stretching, content in game has been thing, peta has "vibes"
99Unvotes Jingles(naked)
105 Porkens town(might be joking)
112 Trying to avoid team mafia confbias
115 Vote HPE, naked
126 HPE is posting just to post
128 Team SR's Jingle, doesn't see the basis for Jingles read on wgeurts
294 Porkens blase attitude of 103 is town, gut feeling
295 Adorable meta aligns with current play, thinks it is town indicative, and wgeurts' wall post is good so TL
296 LLD(teammate)questions why HPE over Jingle
298 HPE's Fate vote isn't liked, comes across as surface level and easy, wants to get depth in responses
299 Cerb null, but maybe scummy given lack of stances
301 Unvote; if town HPE Cerb is scummy; CSF is town; LLD thinks CSF, Adorable, and wgeurts are town, peta agrees, and she thought HPE was town but disliked fate vote
302 powerup vote adorable
480 HPE vote on fate and the justification is still disliked
481 HPE's omgus on wgeurts is not good
483 questions Jingle's positive read on HPE
485 Fate town due to misreadin the setup
491 Like's wgeurts wall, and their question about why HPE is worried about wagon viability
492 Dislikes Jingle and princess' justification for their reads on one another, but probably not scum/scum
496 Questions RR on being willing to vote him because he has a teammate who has played with Jingle
509 Porkens scum, playing to scum meta, Jingle/princess is someone pocketing the other, and it's probably Jingle, and his team sees 465 as a horrible post
511 Doesn't think wgeurts' wall post makes HPE scum, but hte arguments are good and he thinks wgeurts is town
523 fate has done towny stuff, porkens is scummy, why is HPE assuming wgeurts is malicious scum and not wrong town?
528 wgeurts/HPE looks tvt, jingle is scum using it.
531/533 Asks Adorable who she has reads on and to confirm she thinks HPE is unaligned with everyone
539 Reads wall - Porkens and Jingle scum, everyone else degrees of town, with some reservations on Cerb, Adorable, and HPE(HPE TR influenced by Jingle SR)
541 Votes Jingle
549 Jingle town still means porkens scum, but will reevaluate rest of game
550 Jingle started from HPE town and worked backwards
551 Votes porkens, edge scenario where pushign Jingle is antitown
567 Possible Jingle is town and they are letting scum chilll, Adorable and CSF are shared TR's and peta is okay with RR
572 not sure RR is town, wouldn't towncore over other slots, 132 is a stretch, likes 164 and 196, but RR's pushes haven't been strong other than agreeing with Jingle
574 Likes CSF for 84/88, good question off good obervation, mind meld, 136 to question HPE, 189/212 indicate willingness to look into HPE's detractors as well. trying to figure people out
665 wgeurts case against HPE had good points but was just wrong
666 Porkens is scum because his teammates aren't helping him ><
667 hard game if porkens is scum because no associatives
781 Fate may be scum due to opposition to porkens lim
782 kill porkens
789 Fate's defense of porkens is scummy
804 LLD wants to give cerb a 1 night lease, porkens is obviously scum, and fate v peta is a "spyrex" situation
814 annoyance at 774 shouldn't invalidate peta's prior read on fate
815 lld says fate is just town
871 thought porkens self-hammered and it was a scum claim, and that everyone off the wagon is town, jingle should not be allowed to endgame
887 Jingle's approach to the situation is scummy
942 porkens scum=jingle in PoE
949 Fate is town
1057 Jingle is town because of his approach to the argument they had
1088 fate, csf, cerb, RR, all town
1089 probably jingle town too

I'm reserving judgment here, pending some convo.

Peta, you put fate, csf, myself, RR, and maybe Jingle as town at EOD yesterday. You're voting RR right now. What's happening here? Midday D1, you brought up Porkens seemingly not having support from his team as reason why he's scum. That...seems incredibly contrived, actually, and really a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing from my pov. If I see someone deferring to their team constantly, as too many people in this game seem to be doing in my opinion, that just seems like a scummy attempt to distance themselves from their actions. Why was his team not helping him scummy?

Everyone else: thoughts on peta/jingle argument from EOD1? I skimmed it as it was going on, and just had to reread it, but I'd like to hear what everyone thinks the relationship between peta/jingle is most likely to be given the argument and it's end result. Similarly, thoughts on the argument between peta and fate that happened earlier in the day.

Note: Adorable and peta both have the same thought process with regards to fate possibly being scum due to defending porkens, though they expressed it a bit differently. Must ISO in context to see the origin of that.

In 301 you said if HPE is town I'm scummy - as I'm asking everyone, does the inverse hold true? Since you appear to be TR'ing me, where does that put HPE at? It was a TL around the time you were SR'ing Jingle, partly because of Jingle's defense of the slot. How does that all fit together?

What dragged wgeurts down from what seemed to be a TL to not being worthy of including in that list you made at EOD?

Similarly, Adorable was town early in the day, and stopped being so by EOD. Elaborate?

[Cerberus v666]

Also why the fuck is RR the closest thing to a counterwagon to me? HPE, peta, if this is based on the idea of there being one scum in the three of us, do you really think RR is the more likely scum there than fate is? Like, I get my own reasoning, and I know I said that fates specific behavior with regards to this claim is more likely to come from town!fate than scum!fate, but like - I certainly don't expect that line of reasoning to resonate with, like, anyone else lol.

Also I just realized I had a bunch of questions that I just spewed in an unclear fashion in that last post upon reading it, let me fix it lol.

Peta:

Peta, you put fate, csf, myself, RR, and maybe Jingle as town at EOD yesterday. You're voting RR right now. What's happening here?

Midday D1, you brought up Porkens seemingly not having support from his team as reason why he's scum. That...seems incredibly contrived, actually, and really a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing from my pov. If I see someone deferring to their team constantly, as too many people in this game seem to be doing in my opinion, that just seems like a scummy attempt to distance themselves from their actions. Why was his team not helping him scummy?

In 301 you said if HPE is town I'm scummy - as I'm asking everyone, does the inverse hold true? Since you appear to be TR'ing me, where does that put HPE at? It was a TL around the time you were SR'ing Jingle, partly because of Jingle's defense of the slot. How does that all fit together?

What dragged wgeurts down from what seemed to be a TL to not being worthy of including in that list you made at EOD?

Similarly, Adorable was town early in the day, and stopped being so by EOD. Elaborate?

Everyone else:

thoughts on peta/jingle argument from EOD1? I skimmed it as it was going on, and just had to reread it, but I'd like to hear what everyone thinks the relationship between peta/jingle is most likely to be given the argument and it's end result. Similarly, thoughts on the argument between peta and fate that happened earlier in the day.

Note: Adorable and peta both have the same thought process with regards to fate possibly being scum due to defending porkens, though they expressed it a bit differently. Must ISO in context to see the origin of that.

[Cerberus v666]

Wgeurts, HPE, RR, Jingle - Can you guys speak on the everyone else questions??

Wgeurts: heart is super not in it plus I have things that are literally more important to work on, but I made a commitment ya know, even if my half my teammates are basically out of their games and still not really contributing. *shrug* You're right in that teams that are possible with my existing TRs are like...implausible, but considering I just asked for peoples input you can't really say I'm not trying to bounce anything off anyone else.

I'll deal though, might as well try to actually make sure some things aren't overlooked at least if nothing else.

[Cerberus v666]

Hey Fate, you're also part of everyone else btw.

Also I feel you on being an ass as a playstyle, I do some portion of that, but to be clear this isn't a woe is me thing, just responding to wgeurts' statement.

Your point about scum being occams razor only applies to people who are actively terrible at scum and/or don't like being scum. That's not me, but eh, if you keep viewing what you view as defeatist behavior as scummy I'm sure you'll eventually stumble into success.

[Cerberus v666]

? What "something" is that RR? How/why would "something" happen if I'm town? Isn't it more likely that "something" would happen if I were scum?

petapan, are you planning on addressing any of the questions I had in my post about you?

Also the large theme managed to lynch town back to back, so maybe that's not an example that we should be striving to emulate...

[Cerberus v666]

Eh, I'd see what you're saying if the support wasn't clearly there. I don't see any reason why scum would care about rushing this if it's already a foregone conclusion.

I mean, preying on town apathy is a thing, and letting the day drag without any action happening since nobody is engaging with anything other than waiting for me to make posts is a great way to build up that apathy.

[Cerberus v666]

Well done HPE - I was a bit concerned about killing fate over RR with your strongman, and about not killing Peta to force town to either no lim or let you sculpt your endgame(since not killing peta at that moment meant scum was peta, or that scum was OKAY with the current "solve", which could have redirected the POE to include you again), but it all worked our!

Not sure when scum pt will be made available to everyone, so here's info.

D1:HPE and I had some trouble coming up with a fake claim for its slot. We ended up independently arriving at the idea of UB, which clearly ended up working well.

We did not know about the Toad flavor for vanilla town - vanilla was considered for the fake claim for HPE, so that..could have been really bad.

My interaction with wgeurts was decided on by me(you can ask my team mafia teammates!) before I even got my role PM. I wanted to treat wgeurts as a mason for fun, regardless of alignment.

N1: Ninja kill on CSF. Rolecop Adorable. Couldn't risk getting randomly caught by the tracker that obviously existed N1 when HPE and I were both the two most limmable slots/under lots of suspicion and likely to be tracked, followed by Fate and Adorable. No scum deep in the town block=take zero risks. Kill on CSF specifically because they were the least limmmable slot in the game. Neither HPE or I commented on the flavor chat in twilight of D1, so we actually missed out on that as making it probable that CSF had a PR. I recognized that killing CSF would implicate me and felt that risk was worth it, and had I been properly defending myself would have argued too that killing CSF was too dumb for scum!me to do if I wanted to live. Rolecop on Adorable was short-sighted - plan all along was to claim it as a straight up rolecop, naming the role pre-claim, and use my expressed suspicion of adorable+their interest in getting the double vote+my own mechanical focus as the reason why I'd target her specifically.

D2: Adorables pre-emptive claim messed with that plan for me, so instead of being "naive" town who, after getting the result, assumed that bodyguard=town definitely, and who would argue that with so much town power my rolecop as Mario was clearly designed as a mechanical red herring to give a mislim to scum, I downgraded it to just a vanilla cop which absolutely fucked with any reason why I'd target Adorable. Probably my biggest controllable mistake in my day play this game, should have stayed the course or claimed BP use - had we noticed the power role leaks, could have also planned for that as being the reason why I didn't use the BP.

I actually put together my ISO for Adorable and RR during the night phase, but as I was too busy to actually play properly kinda rolled them out over time. The Peta/HPE request from RR was what I wanted and was afraid of, because HPE's one request from me was not leaving any associativss to its slot, which I had done well up to that point. I ultimately decided that with the "mech" pseudo-guilty that didn't reflect reality at all(which was either a gambit by fate in reality, if you look at the mod pt, or fate just misremembering their actions) doing HPEs was high risk unless I did it alongside everyone else's, so the noise was too high for just HPEs ISO to stand out/to allow me to sculpt all the associatives at once, and I simply didn't have time to do all of that, or to even follow up on...like a bunch of things that I noticed and were good opportunities for conversations to be solvey and get townread.

Options for HPE, which we didn't discuss, were responding to my action and role claim with a vote as, say, the 2nd vote, or a delayed 1st vote if nobody was on me, or hard defending me. Since we didn't discuss, HPE did as it pleased. Once HPE didn't jump on the bus immediately, I told it to super hard defend me, and only let itself be swayed onto me at the last minute if necessary, with the assumption(correct, in the end) that between that and the "clear" it would be giving town, nobody would think it could possibly be my partner.

We also checked with cakez on whether or not a strongman kill on a slot Adorable was protecting would kill both slots, as per the language used in Adorables ability - the target was protected, and Adorable would die if the target was targeted by a killing effect - Not Adorable would die in place of the target. Cakez told us that a double kill was not possible, which I maintain means the role PM was not properly written, but it doesn't matter since the only opportunity for such a kill occurred when Adorable was protected by wgeurts' star, AND was targeting HPE.

N2: I recommended HPE "clear" wgeurts - major scumread of its slot, and "clearing" the biggest source of pressure on it's slot would cement the towniness. I also recommended a strongman kill on RR- we had a path to victory, but a save would ruin it. HPE chose to go with Fate because he's too unpredictable, essentially, and ended up using the strongman here out of paranoia.
N3:took a shot at wgeurts in case town didn't do what they said they would.
N4: shot Adorable as it was the only way to avoid the chance of incorrectly guessing who she targeted. Planned to call frame job on scum if anyone suspected it for that reason.

General comments and thoughts: I am unsure why nobody thought "magic" powers would be considered supernatural, and realize that Luigi was likely there to catch my slot.

I think I have more but I am typing this on my phone because I have a chance to respond right now.

[Cerberus v666]

ILY Fate.

[Cerberus v666]

The worse part is we referred your epic return, Fate, and didn't even win TM. :p

[Cerberus v666]

The worse part is we referred your epic return, Fate, and didn't even win TM. :p

*ruined*

Damn mobile

Fate did win a coveted shea award tho.

True. And that's what really matters!