TM 2023 | Mini Normal | Endgame

[Freedom]

@Freedom

I'm voting either you or Ausuka so please

VOTE AUSUKA WITH US

It's not everyday you get the opportunity to attempt being a hero Freedom!

You don't wanna be out of TM so soon, do you?!

Fine.
TBH I did ISO Ausuka.
I want to check her ISO with Mini 2294, first, though.

[Freedom]

@Freedom

I'm voting either you or Ausuka so please

VOTE AUSUKA WITH US

It's not everyday you get the opportunity to attempt being a hero Freedom!

You don't wanna be out of TM so soon, do you?!

Fine.
TBH I did ISO Ausuka.
I want to check her ISO with Mini 2294, first, though.

That's a two minute difference to my post...

Were you here the whole time but not posting?

Not really.
I was waiting for the confirmation to my Role PM and then I started reading a bit.

[Freedom]

I told my hood this but I think DV is the most likely to be scum on the Italiano wagon.

[Freedom]

So, VOTE: DV

[Freedom]

I told my hood this but I think DV is the most likely to be scum on the Italiano wagon.

Do you have any thoughts on Shirou’s theory about the Aisa kill?

I think that it makes sense to think that there would be a lone VT but that sort of thing would scarcely pass review.
So while I feel like Shirou's thoughts are genuine, I doubt it is actually true.

[Freedom]

the main people of focus for me today will probably be DGB, Freedom and Mastina.

Speaking of Freedom:

Did y'all forget that yesterday, Freedom came in as an L-2 elimination candidate, didn't claim, did absolutely nothing, and hasn't posted anything of note...

...And after the COUNTERWAGTON TO FREEDOM flipped town (the Italiano wagon was IN RESPONSE TO the Freedom wagon)...

...Just wrote it off because idk, reasons?

'Cause I didn't. I might be crippled as fuck right now but I sure ain't gonna forget that y'all let Freedom go free--for absolutely NO reason.

Why hasn't there been more talk about Freedom today?

I think you're neglecting that Italiano self-hammered and I was offline half the time before day ended due to Anzac Day.
The wagon very well could've fallen back to me.
P-Edit: Most of it.

[Freedom]

I think that it makes sense to think that there would be a lone VT but that sort of thing would scarcely pass review.
So while I feel like Shirou's thoughts are genuine, I doubt it is actually true.

I've no idea how he reached the conclusion this couldn't be the case, but I think I like this post assuming the scumteam was aware of the "VT = IC" factor of this setup/game.

Can you explain your thought process here? Why did you think my theory wasn't likely true? Who else could be a VT if everyone left alive is in a neighborhood?

In my personal experience, the NRG is very unlikely to allow a setup to pass review with everybody being a Neighbor and a lone VT. That would be too much of a Mini Theme than a Mini Normal.
I'm not disputing your point that if everybody left alive is in a hood, Aisa was most likely killed for being the hypothetical lone VT, but I feel like this would make this game too much of a theme and too less of a Normal.

[Freedom]

That being said I think sometimes it is an important skill to know when to give up

VOTE: Freedom

pls explain your DV read and any other reads you have

My DV read is based of the timing of his unvotes.
Like he votes me in 1316 but immediately after I post my thoughts on Shirou's theory, he unvotes.
I'm leaning towards one of you/Mala being scum due to role claims.
My team thinks mastina could be scum and what (I think) Ydra said about mastina targeting Mala and Mala's action being interfered with, could mean mastina is scum.
Shirou gives me townvibes based of interactions and posts.
I think xof genuinely wants to sort me.

[Freedom]

And Koba, I think seems super aggressive.
I need to check if that's normal for them.

[Freedom]

That being said I think sometimes it is an important skill to know when to give up

VOTE: Freedom

pls explain your DV read and any other reads you have

My DV read is based of the timing of his unvotes.
Like he votes me in 1316 but immediately after I post my thoughts on Shirou's theory, he unvotes.

This happened after you voted DV? Also what's the problem with his rationale for unvoting there

I feel like he could've just kept his vote on, even if I voted him.
I just feel like his push on me feels somewhat all over the place as I don't feel like I did enough at the time to warrant an unvote.

[Freedom]

Trying to link me and kowah is hilarious and I really have to think is shirou trying to be a very audacious scum who wants to say literally anything bc a lot of what they've said this game just isn't logical and I personally don't have the energy to keep them accountable due to IRL but if someone else could ill TR u forever

Don't you think Shirou could just be Town?
Like I'm think you're conflating being logical with being Town.

[Freedom]

do NOT put Koba under E-1 as well by the way

They can self-vote to deny us day discussion.

Got that.
Though, consider me spiritually on them.

[Freedom]

yeah I played a fairly recent mini normal where he did the same thing as town

But i can't imagine he would behave differently as scum either so shrug. I'd like him to elaborate more on the DV read and give other thoughts on the game, as I said earlier - his justification for the DV read was something that happened after he made the read

Actually, Shirou can confirm that I already explained it in our hood prior to I publicly expressed the read on DV.
Though, for my read on mastina, that was based off my team's.

[Freedom]

An update to my reads though would be that Koba replaces DV as my strongest SR.
Though it's mainly because of that quickhammer as I feel like Koba could very well be bussed rn.
On the other hand, Koba and DV's interactions don't really look aligned.

[Freedom]

An update to my reads though would be that Koba replaces DV as my strongest SR.
Though it's mainly because of that quickhammer as I feel like Koba could very well be bussed rn.
On the other hand, Koba and DV's interactions don't really look aligned.

Who fits with me then?

I'm not sure but I guess mastina could be bussing you.

[Freedom]

Though, mastina is kinda nullscum for me and it was her result that kinda put the nail in your coffin.
As it would've been easier for you to survive if it wasn't known you were Multitasking.

[Freedom]

The bottom contributors of this game by amount of posts so far are Freedom, Xof, DGB and Mastina.

If possible, I would very much like for each of them to utilize this time and give us a full readlist with some explanations for why the slots are placed the way they're.

I think it's also fair game if you assume Koba is confirmed scum in your readlist and build it up from that perspective.

Sure.
I'm busy today but expect a readslist from me when I get the time.

[Freedom]

i don't really have an issue 'finding koba partners' or whatever - i think they can be being bussed, today but also in general even in the early game scum tend to bus p often

I probably need to re-evaluate xoffy

Ok who is bussing me then?

if i knew the game would already be over

Could be freedom or dgb

I'm not even on Koba's wagon, though.

[Freedom]

(Though, I would've hammered if I had the time to.)

[Freedom]

Upon doublechecking, xof claimed Role Watcher not Watcher.
Which is making me a bit less concerned.
Though, if possible, xof, can you confirm if any other roles visited Ydra that night other than Koba's Roleblocker?

[Freedom]

At least, I'm assuming you didn't tell us what you saw yesterday due to that.

[Freedom]

Or you didn't want to tip scum off, but I see no point hiding now.

[Freedom]

Upon doublechecking, xof claimed Role Watcher not Watcher.
Which is making me a bit less concerned.
Though, if possible, xof, can you confirm if any other roles visited Ydra that night other than Koba's Roleblocker?

At least, I'm assuming you didn't tell us what you saw yesterday due to that.

You must have missed it, but Koba, I wanted to know what exactly did you do last night?

I already outted results but: n1 Mala, n2 shirou.

Was trying to catch a deepwolf killing

Yeah see, I don't think that's all you did last night. In the hood, you said you were going to target Ydrasse, and

the only role that targetted Ydrasse last night

was the one you've today confirmed that you have. I think you used your multitasking to roleblock Shirou, and send in the Nightkill on Ydrasse.

VOTE: Koba

Bolded the relevant part. And that is the only role that visited Ydrasse N2. I also watched her specifically because in the hood Koba had said they were going to target Ydra.

Or you didn't want to tip scum off, but I see no point hiding now.

Which, yeah that's why I phrased things the way I said it.

Oh.
I missed that part.

[Freedom]

OH I REMEMBER NOW!!!!

Shirou's a doctor claim, right?

The VT this game is essentially an IC, right?

The thing I thought was very damniing about Shirou's claim/play is, TO MY MEMORY, I seem to recall Shirou was one of the first to have stated that the VT was an IC.

...So if Shirou knew that the VT was an IC as a doctor...

...why didn't Shirou try to protect the VT N1?????

This will take me going back to D2 to verify, but like.
If my memory is correct--that's a damn big disconnect between action and role.

I'm pretty sure Shirou only suggested the VT-IC theory after Aisa's flip.

[Freedom]

DV, forgive me if I missed this but do you have any reasons why Ausuka is scum independent of Shirou?

[Freedom]

DV, forgive me if I missed this but do you have any reasons why Ausuka is scum independent of Shirou?

I think Ausuka is most likely not scum

So you're saying Ausuka is only scum if Shirou is?

[Freedom]

DV, forgive me if I missed this but do you have any reasons why Ausuka is scum independent of Shirou?

I think Ausuka is most likely not scum

So you're saying Ausuka is only scum if Shirou is?

I don’t think I connected Ausuka with Shirou anywhere?

My bad, then.
I confused your reads with DGB's.

[Freedom]

I probably don't have time for this game until tomorrow, including no ability to do my part and leas by example, but I will still be reading and processing passively, so this would help a lot.

Nobody, as far as I can tell, has done this.

Not a single player has paraphrased their neighborhood in its entirety;
Not a single player has paraphrased their teammates' contributions in their entirety

.

Despite me requesting it over 24 hours ago, nobody has done it or even given ANY indication that they are going to.

I've asked multiple times, even pagetopped the request!

So let me ask you this.

What is so threatening to Shirou about putting extra information into the game thread?

What about paraphrasing things poses such a threat to Shirou that Shirou refuses to let it happen?

Having those thoughts all out in the gamethread should be nothing but protown; why has Shirou been preventing the info from coming forward?
[/quote]
I think you're getting confbiased.
In all honesty, I think we're all equally to blame for the hoods not getting paraphrased.

[Freedom]

I probably don't have time for this game until tomorrow, including no ability to do my part and leas by example, but I will still be reading and processing passively, so this would help a lot.
[…]
Nobody, as far as I can tell, has done this.

Not a single player has paraphrased their neighborhood in its entirety;
Not a single player has paraphrased their teammates' contributions in their entirety

.

Despite me requesting it over 24 hours ago, nobody has done it or even given ANY indication that they are going to.

I've asked multiple times, even pagetopped the request!

So let me ask you this.

What is so threatening to Shirou about putting extra information into the game thread?

What about paraphrasing things poses such a threat to Shirou that Shirou refuses to let it happen?

Having those thoughts all out in the gamethread should be nothing but protown; why has Shirou been preventing the info from coming forward?

I think you're getting confbiased.
In all honesty, I think we're all equally to blame for the hoods not getting paraphrased.

EBWOP

[Freedom]

I'll try paraphrasing my own hood later.

[Freedom]

What about xof? Any chance there?

I think it was mentioned in our team chat that xof should be in the PoE.
I think it was somethong about them being under the radar.

[Freedom]

I've been a bit busy lately.
I'll promise I'll try to paraphrase my hood soonish.

[Freedom]

Tell me more.

Like something original would be nice.

OK.
I'll paraphrase my hood now.
In the beginning, it was mainly a conversation between Shirou and Kowah about Shirou spamming nonsense in the PT.
Kowah said they liked nonsense but Shirou pointed out they didn't like so last time. Kowah then clarified they were fine with nonsense in the hood but preferred a clean main thread.
Arko, my predecessor, thought there was scum in hood. Kowah and Mala agreed.
Shirou thought Kowah/Mala were scum but suggested an all-town hood could exist.
Then, he mentioned thinking Italiano was in a hood. Mala mentioned mastina's.
Arko mentioned that the team thought there could be 3 hoods.
Then, I came in.

[Freedom]

I asked if our hood was known.
Mala claimed FV and mentioned her crumb.
Shirou and Mala wondered if Ausuka/Mala could be both Town.
Shirou considered mod WIFOM and told me it was known that we were neighbours.

[Freedom]

I'll finish paraphrasing later.
I gtg.

[Freedom]

Cool.
Something, I forgot to ask is why I'm scum with xof?

[Freedom]

Hey I was just in a bad car accident.

I fucking suck for making so many excuses and delaying so much.

Sorry to hear that.
Hope you get better soon.

[Freedom]

Fuck I got the neighborhoods wrong again didn't I in 1887.

Bloody hell.

I literally can't wrap my head around the neighborhood combos.

You were close though.

[Freedom]

I suppose anything is possible but I can't see a town doctor existing when there's a town JK.

Does.a traitor still need to be successfully targeted by scum to join the scum team?

Traitors can't be recruited in Normal games. They get endgamed once you wipe out main scum.

[Freedom]

• is Mafia-aligned
  
• knows the identities of all of the Mafia team
  
• identity is not known by the Mafia team, although they should know a Traitor exists
  
• cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team, and (unless Bulletproof) is killed if shot
  
• is endgamed if all other Mafia are dead
  
• gives a "guilty" result to Cops, an "innocent" result to Gunsmiths, and a "Traitor" result to Role Cops

Here is a quick rundown of what a Traitor does, according to the wiki.

[Freedom]

BTW, mastina, I think you should Role Cop DV or Shirou.

[Freedom]

TBH I think Shirou should be protecting xof, as it's more important they survive.
This is because mastina can only confirm one player at a time but xof can essentially confirm almost everybody.

[Freedom]

Then, this is only for a town!xof situation.

[Freedom]

VOTE: Freedom

Let's make it interesting.

You're already voting me.

[Freedom]

Feysal believes mastina is scum. I asked why. He says that he has several reasons.

(1) mastina suddenly finding Ausuka's claim is one.
(2) He doesn't like her play this day phase, making massive posts with every combination and permutation of scumteam did not help, especially with the second one that contained no analysis.
(3) The request to summarize neighborhood is a noise-generator.
(4) Accusing Shirou of not protecting a VT while not knowing who the VT was, was not good.
(5) Why accuse Shirou of this when I (DGB) could easily be accused of the same?

Steag just came in and he's making jokes that mastina can't confirm anything.

Feysal continues and says that mastina wouldn't have needed to investigate to produce the results since she and Freedom could have picked that up from a neighborhood (can someone double-check this for accuracy?)

He wonders why mastina asked twice about what happened to the night 3 fruit. Someone alive should have received it (technically if Shirou was the target, I was JK'ing him). Feysal couldn't find from Mala's iso who the target might have been. Shirou or Freedom may know from neighborhood. He asks if the scum got the fruit and is hiding it to create doubt about who wasblocked.

Then Staeg says he wasn't suggesting that mastina isn't actually a rolecop, he was referring to the fact that I blocked Shirou.

Mala claimed FV in our hood, and said she was thinking of giving fruit to you.
Though, it seemed later that she tried to give it to Shirou.

[Freedom]

I missed this before but Mala wanted mastina flipped.

[Freedom]

Hello I believe Freedom is at L-1.
This is me not yet hammering because surprise surprise, my goal isn't to end the day; my goal is to catch scum and I need the time.

I probably will vote Freedom to secure an elimination (barring Freedom somehow shooting up in my reads), but I want to do as much as I can to solve prior to the night.

Well.
Surprise.
Unfortunately for you, I'm on E-2, per my count.

[Freedom]

Just in case, xof goes and actually put me at E-1, I would like to post some final reads.

[Freedom]

This is similar to my N3 reads but with minor differences after what happened this day phase.
Koba IMO was definitely bussed by at least one of their partners.
Ausuka is nullish. The whole 'Freedom could be bussing' thing from yesterday felt weird, though I couldn't tell if she's confused bussing with distancing or something.
I still TR Shirou, for similar reasons to before.
DGB, I've started to TR as I don't see why if they were scum, they would pass over a DV lim to pressure me.
I think xof could be nulltown, though their role appears to be a counterpart to mastina's.
mastina is nullscum. I feel like her interactions with DV look off. She mentioned voting me to end the day but she could've simply miscounted. Also, she and DV have been pushing similar narratives. Interestingly, she forgot to mention that per the VC, Koba jumped off her onto Kowah. And me and DV were vanity wagons at the time.
In fact, I was a dueling wagon for Italiano, who self-hammered while I was celebrating ANZAC Day, and not Kowah.
That leaves DV, who I had stopped SRing for his Koba interactions but in hindsight, he could've been distancing.
DV has been pushing similar narratives to mastina for a while. As mentioned by somebody before, his wagon has had a lot of resistance opposed to mine.

[Freedom]

VOTE: DV

[Freedom]

BTW, my TM mates have pointed out DV's hop onto my wagon after DGB expressed interest in voting him looks opportunistic.

[Freedom]

And they say that mastina's theory doesn't make sense as scum would rather kill or block her to prevent her from getting a result than avoiding.

[Freedom]

BTW, my TM mates have pointed out DV's hop onto my wagon after DGB expressed interest in voting him looks opportunistic.

Who do you think I should’ve voted for instead? We’re getting close to the end of the day here

Actually, this is a somewhat good point.
I'll ask my TM mates.

[Freedom]

DGB, I've started to TR as I don't see why if they were scum, they would pass over a DV lim to pressure me.

I'm not sure where this read comes from. You say you think DV is scum because his wagon has lots of resistance compared to yours - passing over the debate about if 'resistance' is a sensible way to read people, if you think scum are okay with the wagon on you, why *wouldn't* that include DGB? Why are you giving them a free pass like this?

I feel like DGB's reasoning comes across as more they want to get content from me and less to avoid wagoning DV. They mentioned that they were interested in voting DV, which doesn't seem like something scum would do to their buddy.

[Freedom]

OTH, I just realised that they switched to xof, though their solve is DV/xof and DV is on E-1.

[Freedom]

- Koba says that there's scum in the hood and that it's DV and/or xof

Hmm, this sounds familiar...

Arko, my predecessor, thought there was scum in hood. Kowah and Mala agreed.

What are the odds of a town player saying nearly the exact same thing as a scum player? At...well this is why I wanted timestamps, it's hard to tell exactly when, but...at what

appears

to be around the same time?

Like I said--I asked for timestamps for a fucking reason.

'Cause if those were near the same time, then chances are...yaknow.

Freedom and Koba both said the same thing because they are scumbuddies.

Arko said that around 15 April.

[Freedom]

Ugh okay I don’t have the energy/time rn to read all the stuff but I think this is e-1?

VOTE: Freedom

I think it’s down to you DGB

Is mastina voting me?

[Freedom]

Actually, she is.

[Freedom]

mastina, when I flip Town, who do you think scum will be?

[Freedom]

I think it's Mastina + DV most likely and Mastina comes here trying to drown everyone with her wallposts and ignoring any discussion about DeasVail, and I feel the NEED to try to combat her and not let her completely drown the thread

Funny, that's the way I feel about you on Freedom!

I'll be blunt with you.

If it were anyone but you arguing about DeasVail I would've listened to them instantly.

And even with you, it's not an intentional rejection of your DV case, so much as a justifiable lack of sheeping it--I know you are a proven liar in your cases, you cased DV, and therefore I am going to assume the DV case likely has lies within.

I would analyze the DV case if I had more time to do so.

Given the chance, I would review it--and if the case actually were free of lies? I'd need to have a fundamental reassessment.

Unfortunately, I didn't get that chance.

But arguing that I am ignoring DV discussion is disingenuous as fuck.

I am open to discussion.

I am not open to being demanded to be followed, least of all from a proven liar.

Did you miss the part where DGB mentioned a SR on DV?

[Freedom]

Did you miss the part where DGB mentioned a SR on DV?

If DGB provided reasons for it, I think I did in fact miss it.

I wouldn't call "maybe DV is just scum" to be a reason; that is what I remember DGB saying--which I admit, might be me having just not remembered what DGB said or maybe I missed DGB giving reason.

So if DGB gave an actual reason, that's my bad for not remembering it.

I've gotta go to bed now but will look for it during the night.

Got that.
They didn't really mention reasons if that's what you're interested in.

[Freedom]

Though, they did mention DV not voting being weird.

[Freedom]

but I'm also planning the next lims if Freedom is town.

Everyone should already to speedwagon DeasVail in that scenario

Agreed.

[Freedom]

Actually, I think Ausuka could actually be right.
DGB did want to go for DV for a while but never voted him.

[Freedom]

UNVOTE: My solve right now is DV and xof.

VOTE: xof

Let's see.

Quoting this for reference.

[Freedom]

Final solve before I flip is scum is two of DV/mastina/DGB.

[Freedom]

Random thing, though.
Is tommorrow ELO?

[Freedom]

Actually, yeah.
Tommorrow is ELO if a kill happens.
Let's just hope DV is scum or mafia somehow doesn't get a kill through.

[Freedom]

Watching DV wouldn't give anything unless somebody targets DV, but I haven't watched DV yet so he's still a possibility.

I don't think it's worth it though, as it's better watching somebody who has a higher chance of getting killed.

[Freedom]

xof can't see modifiers.

[Freedom]

They claimed Role Watcher.

[Freedom]

xof can't see modifiers.

That's not true, yes I can. I just don't see alignment. When I watched Ydrasse, I got Koba's entire role *with* modifiers.

Oh.
My bad then.
I thought Role Cops/Watchers shouldn't have been able to do that, per the wiki.

[Freedom]

Though, maybe I just misinterpreted it.
P-Edit: good idea.

[Freedom]

reading up now

what happened?

I got hammered.

[Freedom]

And you're probably going to get wagoned tommorrow once I flip Town.

[Freedom]

TBH if mastina/DGB are the scumteam, I think they played well.

[Freedom]

TBH I'm still hoping I'm not wrong on xof being town.

[Freedom]

sorry freedom btw

i felt like there were signs you were your true town self and I probably should have seen them

No problems.

[Freedom]

Random thing I told Shirou.
In a town!DV world, we are seriously underpowered as at least two of the most powerful PRs are scum in that instance.

[Freedom]

DGB trolling w/ F3 hammer was really funny btw

Agreed.

[Freedom]

I said several times in our discord that I consider a game with 12 neighbors and 1 vt a theme game, but fair enough.

I 100% agree with this.
This was also the main reason, I struggled to accept Aisa being the lone VT.
It just felt too like a Mini Theme with Normal roles than a Mini Normal game.