Mini Normal 1609: The Case Of Doctor Pepper (Game Over)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

*Yawn* at semantics.

I just told you what I meant.

[Csareo]

*Yawn* at semantics.

I just told you what I meant.

Could this be evidence that you're a troll?
Answer the question. You said that scum are pushing a lynch on you

before

me.
Are you saying scum are going to lynch me after you?
And if so, why are you voting for me?

[Csareo]

This changes things.

[Csareo]

He left, not suprising.
His silence, and lack of an unvote, clearly signal that his vote was 100% reactionary.
He said that scum want to lynch him D1,

before

they lynch me. This is the same implication slip I accused TTH of earlier, except it is a little more established.

[Csareo]

@TTH, did BBT leave ANYTHING out of the PT?

[Csareo]

2) Yes, the moderator himself posted in there.

Why were certain posts omitted out?
Can you show us the rest?
@Wake-Did you ever talk to the list mod about copying PT's

[Boonskiies]

Csareo, you don't have to worry about me flipping scum. It's not going to happen, but you already know that. Amirite?

I would guess the

scum are on my wagon

and trying to push my lynch

through before Csareo's.

Mm, he did just imply you are town. When you had a slip, he wouldn't let you ever get away from it, but he's calling semantics now. Interesting.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Are you fucking serious? How is that a fucking slip?

[Boonskiies]

Why are you voting Csareo if you think that scum is on your wagon, and then they'll move onto Csareo? If you don't think Csareo is scum, why is your vote on him?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I didn't say scum would move onto Csareo. I said scum are trying to lynch me before Csareo gets lynched.

[Boonskiies]

Alright. I reread the last page, and I don't know how I even got to where I am right now. Haha. My bad. I see what you meant.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@Mod - Can we have updated VC please.

[Green Crayons]

@TTH:

Alright, I understand that scum have to concoct bogus cases on townies to advance their win conditions. But I've seen cases where townies are stuck in confirmation bias. The very things you seem to think are scummy are reasons why

I

think this is the case for Csareo. How is "vilifying people who disagree" part of a scum response? To me, this kind of response you're describing seems to fit confirmation bias to a "T" (implying that the opinions are genuine).

(1) Mere disagreement with a case doesn't make someone scum. Csareo has called people suspicious for disagreeing with his case. Use of this indicator of scumminess is not alignment indicative (at least before any flip has come about), and it simply muddles up the thread's collective consciousness about who is and isn't suspicious. Adding confusion to the thread = scum tactic.

(2) Also, it allows Csareo to pull this "if I'm right, people who disagree with me are scum; if I'm wrong, people who disagree with me are scum" tactic:

There are two possibilities that make sense to me now.
1. BBT is scum and two of the people voting me are reacting to my push
2. BBT is town, and scum are defending both me and him to be apart of a town bloc if we are mislynched

-----

Number (2) requires more scrutiny. You think Csareo is feigning incompetence or stubbornness? That seems like an accusation that needs substantiation in the form of previous experience / other completed games.

There's a difference between "feigning" a playstyle and purposefully playing in a certain manner that is obtuse. Once again, this goes back to Flubber's comments, and whether Csareo's usual play aligns with what we see here, and whether that alone should suffice in excusing his suspicious actions.

[Green Crayons]

Ok, I caught up. I forgot to do this in my first post so UNVOTE:

I'm about to go to bed so I'll just say a couple of things. I don't like the Csareo wagon. His cases are bad but that just makes him an easy mislynch. Like Anatole said, he's not likely to be NKed too often. Here's something specific I don't like from post 766:

To put it in your phraseology: Csareo is working towards a scum win condition by (1) pushing a bad case against someone who looks clearly town to me, thereby reducing the total town numbers, and (2) developing a persona that excuses a lot of his suspicious actions, thereby helping to protect himself against adverse actions.

(1) Csareo is making a bad case, yes, but town does that all the time, not just scum.
(2) I'm here to win this game, nothing else. I don't care about his persona. This also makes it sound like this is a policy lynch. Is it?

It's like you didn't even read the anything of Post 766 except what you quoted.

[Jagged Appliance]

@Jagged Alliance: Anyone besides Flubber that you don't like? Could you be more specific about who you don't like on the Csareo wagon? Do you feel Csareo's wagon sprang up to try and save BBT? What about BBT and his wagon?

Doogal has had his eyes on GreyIce(my slot) and BBT from very early on and doesn't seem to be looking elsewhere at all.

Scrambles throws down an RVS vote in post 84, votes Csareo on a suspected slip and doesn't do much else. Omph replaced in and has contributed virtually nothing either. Also didn't unvote for some reason.

Rufflig refutes Csareo case in 458 and then votes Csareo. Voting for a bad case doesn't neccessarily follow. Are you strongly townreading BBT Rufflig?

Did Csareo's wagon appear to save BBT? I'm not sure. I lean towards no.

Can we lynch BBT pls. And then put the spotlight on AK?

@Flubber, please elaborate on both these points.

It's like you didn't even read the anything of Post 766 except what you quoted.

I reread it and there is nothing there. Your previous post says BBT is so town it hurts. That is a reason to vote Csareo for mistakes in his case but I don't see how BBT is so incredibly town. Could you explain?

[Green Crayons]

@Jagged:

Read 766 again. The answers are all right there in 766.

1) In 791, you took issue with me voting Csareo for making a bad case. But in 766 I explicitly stated this is not the only reason why I'm willing to lynch him, and that "making a bad case," standing alone, is not a valid basis to lynch someone because town make them too.

2) In 791, you attempt to characterize my Csareo vote as a policy lynch because of his personality. That is

the exact opposite

of why Csareo's playstyle is even relevant to my analysis. That is, I'm trying to determine if whether Csareo's playstyle excuses his suspicious activities, thereby exempting him from a lynch, rather than constitutes a basis for his lynch. (TBF, this is more clearly put forward in Post 749, and while I don't expect anyone other than TTH to be reading my posts directed at her with much care, I suspect you were reading our interaction more closely since you decided that one post within our back-and-forth struck you the wrong way, and you must have done your homework to at least see if Post 766 was part of some larger discussion.)


(Sidenote to

TTH

and

Flubber

: I think I'm giving Csareo plenty of leeway to compensate for his playstyle -- for example, his redic posting in the past two pages are unproductive, but not a valid basis to further solidify my vote.

That

I can attribute to playstyle. The particular suspicious actions I have noted in the past as justifying my continued Csareo vote just don't fit under the same protective umbrella.)

-----

Your previous post says BBT is so town it hurts. That is a reason to vote Csareo for mistakes in his case but I don't see how BBT is so incredibly town. Could you explain?

I've repeated it before:

w/r/t BBT:

Everything about BBT reads to me as over-excited town so I don't plan on voting him unless some new shit comes to light. It's also unlikely if he's town that he has another role to claim besides neighbor so it's probably a dead end road.

Wouldn't over excited town be less defensive and more tunnel-y?

I would think it would depend on the player. He seemed genuinely upset he was outed by his neighbor and I think

he thinks

he keeps seeing all of these scum tells and is going after them.

I think Anatole hit the nail squarely on the head. In short, BBT's actions read like an over excited town making a genuine attempt to look for scum.

[Green Crayons]

Thinking it over, Jagged, I think you may have confused what the quoted portion of 766 meant. TTH wanted a reason why Csareo-scum would be acting the way he was. I told her in the portion of 766 that you quoted.

However, why Csareo-scum would be acting in the manner that Csareo is acting in this game is is not synonymous with why I am voting Csareo. It just explains how Csareo's actions in this game are consistent with Csareo being scum.


I think that might clarify our miscommunication about 766.

[Jagged Appliance]

Thinking it over, Jagged, I think you may have confused what the quoted portion of 766 meant. TTH wanted a reason why Csareo-scum would be acting the way he was. I told her in the portion of 766 that you quoted.

However, why Csareo-scum would be acting in the manner that Csareo is acting in this game is is not synonymous with why I am voting Csareo. It just explains how Csareo's actions in this game are consistent with Csareo being scum.


I think that might clarify our miscommunication about 766.

You're right, I misunderstood. I think you just saved us both quite a bit of time

You agree with Anatole's read of BBT as "over-excited town" and I find myself agreeing - not to the point of "incredibly town" mind you. Problem is, Csareo seems similar to me. Loud, over-excited, but with a lot more mistakes. I'm not convinced by either wagon.

[Boonskiies]

You agree with Anatole's read of BBT as "over-excited town" and I find myself agreeing - not to the point of "incredibly town" mind you. Problem is,

Csareo seems similar to me.

Loud, over-excited, but with a lot more mistakes. I'm not convinced by either wagon.

I like this guy. This is how everyone who is defending BBT is talking like. They are accusing Csareo of everything that BBT is doing. But BBT has more than just those nidbits, and his reaction starting with the AK vs Wake is what made me read BBT as scum. I don't see it as over-excited town. I don't see why you can possibly see him as "incredibly town".

[Boonskiies]

Uhm, I quoted weird. I was quoting Jagged and talking to him at first. ^

[Csareo]

It seems greencrayon's is dropping her earlier logic to support a meagre policy lynch.
Unless it is on the grounds of inactivity, a policy lynch is usually a scum motivated lynch.
Now the better question, is why is he starting a one sided tunnel as soon as I join the game?
This is what has me really worked up.
Greengrayons refuses to answer certain questions about his case, is very selective about what he attacks, and the only player he even mentioned this game was "csareo".
The original case was "Csareo is scum for tunneling a town read", and he must of realized how stupid that is, because it's now "let's policy lynch Csareo for tunneling village idiots".
Everything that comes out of his mouth is a mess. If he really is missing the sheer amount of scum slips being committed by BBT, then he's simply ignorant.
By his logic, we should policy lynch BBT to uncover the sheer amount of association tells he made.

But let's get back to the suspicious stuff. Something is really off about this wagon. The people defending BBT have been committing every scum slip in the book (excluding ruffling).
Not only do their cases refuse to make sense, but they are one sided and based on a confirmation that BBT is already town. Instead of anaylzing BBT's actions, which is something I've only seen ruffling do so far, they go on this one sided trip to tunnel me for tunneling him. Let's put two and two together. They're either "stupid as shit" or have scum motivation to protect BBT.

Let's look back to the pattern I found with BBT.

BBT has a tendency to do the same things over and over. When a player starts to tunnel him, he reacts by voting the player that is putting on the pressure (TTH, Wake88, Csareo, boon).
As soon as the player tunneling relaxes pressure, or the push seems to be counter intuitive, BBT proceeds to join an opportunistic wagon (scrambles, boon, anatole, tth again, me twice, once opportunistic)
It has also became clear that the same players start becoming active whenever he begins to be tunneled again (massive, greencrayons, ruffles)
In addition to this three way pattern we have saw dozens of times already, there is a shockingly similar transparency between two cases, "ruffles and green crayons".
This pattern alone warrants a policy lynch just to unearth the scum on his wagon.
At this rate, the only possibilities left are "BBT is town being protected by scum, or scum being protected by scum.
Now the only reason I doubt this LOR, is because there are two strong wagons right now, and if scum were trying to establish a town bloc on a player, it wouldn't of happened in this context (given I know I'm town)

.

And this post summarized the fishiness of the two static wagons

In other words, there are two wagons going on, and on D1, usually one would of been tipped by scum now.
They've had about a dozen pages to defend either me or BBT, and usually at this point scum would just finish one of the players off, and have a solid town read simply for defending a now dead townie.
I highly doubt scum would draw it out for this long, which makes me believe scum are defending one of the two wagons.

[Csareo]

I didn't say scum would move onto Csareo. I said scum are trying to lynch me before Csareo gets lynched.

WTF does that mean, as you'te pretty much implying I'm town who's going to be lynched.
And you have a vote on me.

[Boonskiies]

I didn't say scum would move onto Csareo. I said scum are trying to lynch me before Csareo gets lynched.

WTF does that mean, as you'te pretty much implying I'm town who's going to be lynched.
And you have a vote on me.

I agree that it's worded oddly, but what he meant is that scum is trying to save you and get him lynched

instead

of you.

[Csareo]

okay, that makes sense

[Green Crayons]

@wake, Anatole:

you two, along with Jagged, are the only players who aren't voting for either Csareo or BBT. I'm curious as to your thoughts about both wagons, and why your vote is where it is (Anatole on Jagged (replacing GreyICE), and wake on nobody, as of last VC).