Mini 1407 (Game Over)

[Cheery Dog]

Vote Count 1.5

projectmatt (4) ICEninja, Rob13, Bub Bidderskins, chkflip
chkflip (3) wam, implosion, projectmatt
Bub Bidderskins (2) Drchrist, PeregrineV
Rob13 (2) Ion67, Breakfast
denisatp (1) Lincolm
Ion67 (0)
wam (0)
Drchrist (0)
ICEninja (0)
Lincolm (0)
implosion (0)
Breakfast (0)
PeregrineV (0)

Not voting: denisatp

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 Deadline:

(expired on 2013-01-11 19:21:19)

[Bub Bidderskins]

unvote

vote: chkflip

implosion, i figured it would clearly be a joke due to denis making jokes right before that and me responding to a joke with a joke

I don't like this wagon jump. He jumped off of me when he saw that my wagon was working out and jumped on the second most likely lynch wagon other than himself. IMO, this betrays a lack of conviction, or true reads. Instead, it feels like he's fabricating this read to fit his purposes.

[chkflip]

Lot of words without much intent there, Bidderskins. Don't be so passive. What do you think of the conversation between us (myself/matt)?

[wam]

Urgh I just haven't had the time I thought I would have. I am V/LA till the 7th and should have much more content then. Sorry for any inconvenience.

[projectmatt]

No, I don't have an imbalance, but I'd appreciate it if you'd attempt to make a case against me instead of further deflecting and basically only saying "well this isn't chk-town" because, clearly, you're lying scum.

First link - Here you say I'm "prob-town" which, in case you didn't know, isn't the same thing as calling me town. Then you go on to say here that you think I'm "bullshitting scum" which, in case you didn't know, isn't the same thing as calling me town. Here's something really rich. You call me "arrogant but prob-town" for doing something that, actually, you're doing to me right now. Good job matt-scum.

I'm not even going to bother with the second link. Your vote

is

omgus as you have no base for the vote other than some magical ball saying I'm scum because I'm playing differently when, in actuality, I'm playing exactly the fucking same.

You're welcome.

Ah yes, because "probably" saying that you're town instead of saying "chkflip IS town" is certainly a gigantic difference that destroys the argument of me having reasons to have townread you.

I love how you ignored the second link, but here, I'll do the work for you -

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... lect=15535

post 53:

I can recall thinking that Mcqueen, TwistedSpoon Pine and Mastin were town, and after reading I'm going to put chkflip on that list as well. (This is his town play.)

post 99:

Chkflip is town. Too lazy to explain that.

Post #115

this is not the way Chkflip plays as scum. When he's town he's seemingly laid back and he has a very ..relaxed tone, his posts ring out as town. I also don't believe he's stupid enough as mafia to push for a Mastin lynch as soon as he replaces in as well.

I'm not going to post every single moment where I mentioned you, but I, as town, defended you from a lynch when you were town, commented that you were one of the only town reads I could have trusted and verified over and over that I in fact, knew that you were town.

Go to this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... lect=15535 and c+f "chkflip"

So, there you go buddy. There's the confidence that you wanted. I'm not trying to make a meta case on you but I am implying that I have in fact townread you correctly in games before and your first few posts weren't indicative of how you play as town. Granted, my mind can still change but your defense is

horrific

and you're pathetic for calling me a lying sack of shit. You're the one over reacting to a vote with me trying to read you.

[projectmatt]

unvote

vote: chkflip

implosion, i figured it would clearly be a joke due to denis making jokes right before that and me responding to a joke with a joke

I don't like this wagon jump. He jumped off of me when he saw that my wagon was working out and jumped on the second most likely lynch wagon other than himself. IMO, this betrays a lack of conviction, or true reads. Instead, it feels like he's fabricating this read to fit his purposes.

I put the third vote on the chkflip wagon. Before that, there were three votes on your wagon. Clearly, both had the same amount of momentum.

Bub, who do you think is town?

[chkflip]

I'm going to go ahead and repeat myself since you just skimmed over the last part.

One town read =/= correct town reads forever. Try again.

[chkflip]

I'm going to go ahead and repeat myself since you just skimmed over the last part.

One town read =/= correct town reads forever. Try again.

[projectmatt]

true. but when youve confidently townread a player twice and having specced their other games it is fair to raise an eyebrow when that player plays differently from expected.

[chkflip]

Alright, this is the third time you've attacked me as a person regardless of what you think of my play style. I called you a liar because, lets be honest, those happened a year ago and eight months ago respectively. I disappeared from the site between those games and this one. To think that my game is going to be the spot-on same is pretty egregious to say the least.

So, this is your whole case?

[projectmatt]

hmm, i wasn't attempting to attack you as a person? pretty sure the only time i did that was me asking if you had a chemical imbalance which in retrospect was rude, as i was frustrated by the lying comment.

i'm not thinking that it's spot-on, and i'm not expecting you to follow the exact same patterns that you've played as town in that game. i'm not looking for a specific post but in my opinion, when you are town, you town tell. that's literally what it can be summed up to. what i saw from the first few posts were awkward attempts at joining in paired with extremely bad reasoning so i voted you.

[chkflip]

So your case is something I basically have no way of defending. Cool story, bro.

[projectmatt]

i did actually explain why your logic was poor and why your vote as well as your responses don't make sense which is a pretty big part of it but hey

[chkflip]

K

[projectmatt]

lol

[Cheery Dog]

Drchrist has been prodded

[projectmatt]

unvote

[ICEninja]

I'm pretty sure that wasn't a town on town exchange. Definitely feeling like projectmatt is the more likely to be scum (for reasons previously mentioned) but if I end up wrong I could see chk being scum here.

Still wanting to hear from other players. Denis, in particular, is growing scummier by the minute with his lack of contribution to the game.

[Rob14]

Definitely feeling like projectmatt is the more likely to be scum (for reasons previously mentioned) but if I end up wrong I could see chk being scum here.

Why do you think that only one is scum?

[ICEninja]

I actually didn't stipulate that, one can note the fact that I carefully said "not town on town" as supposed to specifically "town on scum". I feel it is indeed possible that this is a distancing play, but find it more likely that it's a town on scum situation.

Had no one asked I wouldn't have said anything about it until later, because if it is indeed a distancing play it's better that scum not know anyone is potentially on to them.

But I still feel like it's pretty likely one of them is town.

[Rob14]

I ask because your post only planned for the eventuality that matt flips town and basically sets up the next day's lynch target for you. That's not typically play I see from town.

I don't think town should speculate at all, but when they do, they normally plan for both possibilities. Scum is more likely not to because they know the flip already.

[ICEninja]

That's a bit of a leap to conclusions, taking my statement that I believe at least one of them to be scum and claiming that I'm setting up lynches. Certainly the flip of one will impact my opinion of the other, but that's just thinking ahead. Which I tend to do all the time and someone always seems to call me out on lining up lynches.

How is this not town motivated?

[Rob14]

It tends to be used as an excuse not to look at the wagon or consider other alternatives. You lock yourself into a position that one of two people is scum and then you have an easy excuse to go after two townies in a row as scum.

Can you link me to any one time where you were called out as lining up lynches as town? If you can grab that for me, it's a null tell as far as I'm concerned.

[ICEninja]

I can probably get you at least 3, but I'm tired right now. I'll do it in the morning.

[implosion]

Spoiler: Theory rant (directed at ICE)

I've always hated the reasoning "this fight is not TvT." It isn't scummy per se, but I don't think that it is logically possible to justify the position that a fight between two players is not TvT without explicitly scumreading one or both players. Not to say that ICE hasn't - but think about it this way. The fight between matt and chk consists of two sets of interactions - matt's actions towards chk, and chk's towards matt. If matt is town, then his interactions towards chk are going to be the same whether chk is town or scum - thus, it is impossible to distinguish between mattTown-chkTown and mattTown-chkScum

based only on their interactions.

Likewise, it is impossible to distinguish between mattTown-chkTown and mattScum-chkTown. Ergo, the only situation that can be distinguished from TvT

solely based on their interactions

is SvS - that is to say that their interactions

as a whole

cannot be used as a tell that would rule out TvT. It would be a legitimate argument to say "matt's actions towards chkflip look like scum -> town to me" or "chk's actions towards matt look like scum -> town to me", but to say "this fight doesn't look like TvT to me" without specifying how exactly it isn't TvT is just bullshit. Townies do it, which is sad, but it's a stupid argument - it's one of those things which is usually based entirely on gut without anything to back it up logically. Gut is fine, but it has to have some (at least vague or tenuous) basis in logic.

chk looks townier than he did after the fight with projectmatt - specifically, i think I'm just misconstruing bad play as scummy. Posts 109/111 look like town that is genuinely annoyed that they're being attacked.

Unvote

VOTE: denisatp

I think there's a good chance that his lurking is scum-motivated. My gut is saying that projectmatt is town (and that chkflip is town), which would make all of the leading wagons be on town, and I think that denis may just be sitting back and letting the town implode.

Denis scumgame. No posts on Nov 11 or Nov 18. At the time of the day one lynch, he had slightly under 9% of total posts. Day 1 lasted about 11 days.

Denis towngame (first mini normal I found). He posted every single day, and had almost 20% of total posts at the time of the day one lynch. Day 1 lasted about 6 days (which means he could have just lost interest in the first game, but about half of his posts were made before the approximate halfway-point of the day chronologically).

Also note that he made

about

the same number of total posts in those two games - they were just spread out over about twice as long a period of time in the scumgame.

This is in no way conclusive, but I feel like denis would be the kind of person to strategically lurk as scum in this kind of situation. It could also just be because new years, but I don't find any of the active posters scummy at this point.

This game would be better if the 7/13 players with less than five posts would post more :\.