mini1510 PAUL WALKER MEMORIAL flights of angels sing thee to

[Grimgroove]

I assure you, you don't want to keep pieguyn around for LyLo. We will want to vote him out before we get there.

I like Desperado. His first question in post 27 shows insight and dedication. Why did pieguyn not answer it?

Telo's 63 shows dedication.

TSO apparently not liking this approach and preferring "wait and see"-methods, given the three day deadline, rings DANGER - ROADWORKS AHEAD.

I don't like Slandaar. He's much fluffier than how I remember him.

VOTE: Slandaar

I want him to get serious.

[Grimgroove]

It's a wonderful question. The fact that it remained unanswered proves it.

[Grimgroove]

Making assumptions in the way pieguyn did it in itself is strange. It didn't sound like an assumption.

I don't do set-up speculation. 2+1+10, 4+9, 3+10, 3+1+9, 2+2+9, what's the difference at this point? Won't be clearing that up right now, right?

The reason I liked Desperado's question is because it addressed the fact the assumption was made, regardless of the particular content of said assumption. The emphasis is on the "why". Why assume anything in this regard?

[Grimgroove]

You simply transforming the question into a negative made it far less interesting.

How can you be sure everyone is aware of this "norm"? That's exactly what the "why"-question was supposed to find out.

The fact of the matter is, that pieguyn-list is essentially useless and probably some kind of joke, but it involves an idea that there's three scum that seems surprisingly factual for a list like that. Why would you base yourself on "norms" for stuff like this? It's as if subconsciously pieguyn put three scums inthere because he KNEW there are 3, explaining this direct transposition of this idea into a joke-list. I don't see a "norm" doing that.

I want this explained by pieguyn himself.

But thank you for being serious.

VOTE: TSO

[Grimgroove]

I took it as Pie being funny by fingering the 3 players he played with last game as scum.

*facepalm*

I hadn't noticed. I'd forgotten that TSO was in that game as well.

[Grimgroove]

Difficult to comment on T S O's argument. So I won't, as it's not really an argument anyway.

The convergence on Windblown, outside of the fact pressure is necessary as fast as possible in this game, is obviously random. His reaction to it in 119 rings quite sensible at first sight, but the fact he brings up other people to point to doesn't sit very well with me. The fact he contrasts his own reaction with Generic's reaction also makes it seem there is a clear motivation of appearing calm and reasonable, making it all sound less genuine. That said, I haven't seen anything outrageously scummy. Keeping an eye on his actual scumhunting. His posts have raised my expectations of his capabilities in this regard, so want to keep him around for now.

Slandaar has become the Slandaar I knew from before, and seems town for it.

I'm liking pieguyn's search for interactions with me and BigTerp, it feels as if he's trying to secure a read on both of us fast, a sensisble tactic since we just got out of a LyLo together and there is not that much time. The list-thing got cleared up, making that part of pieguyn's ISO null. (see that Slandaar, how that line of inquiry was helpful after all?)

When it comes to BigTerp I don't have a clear read, but if he keeps up what he's doing now I don't see a reason why he should be lynched.

I don't like Garmr's 93. First of all because it stifles a possibly interesting discussion and insights (not everyone believes in meta, but a lot of people do), but the main problem is that he doesn't offer any alternative path. Feels like a safe sideline comment that everyone can agree on, without actually doing anything. His faked "modesty" and the sad smiley face appeal to the emotions.

Frankly there's nothing I like about that post, aqnd looking at his ISO, I don't see anything good either. The fact that his own vote on Amethyst Kitty seems to be largely based on some previous game as well, makes him hypocritical to bout.

VOTE: Garmr

Don't have much of a read on others. Generic looks like an emotional player, always have a hard time reading those. Majiffy's 118 looks very town, but need to see more of him. Waiting for Desperado to continue that critical player he was when trying to bring us out of RVS. Amethyst limiting the options sounds like town getting ahead of herself. I have to admit I too feel a certain sense of "rush" in this game, so I understand the sentiment. When you find yourself among the lynch-options, that sense gets heightened even more, so I don't see much scumminess in it.

Others I didn't mention means I don't have any comments yet, hinting at them having to do more.

@mod

: The weekend is near and it's going to be quite difficult for me to come online within the next 24 hours due to a family trip. I'd like to put in a V/LA of approximately 36 hours, meaning I'll be back Sunday late afternoon Belgian time (right now it's Friday middle of the night). Hope that's fine.
If this V/LA is unacceptable given the set-up of this game, I'll reluctantly accept your decision to replace me out.

[Grimgroove]

@GG
My vote on the ice queen was a rvs. It only got serious when she suggested the one on one with someone she thought was town which is pretty odd. Also i'm not getting lost in the past game unlike Thus it's not hypocritical. Also tell me how my view on the past game is wrong.

Yes reading meta is interesting but continuing to talk about the a past game with out using it in context to recent plays is just what you said stifling possibly interesting discussion and insights. So what your proposing is to continue being stuck in the past game wasting precious time. No this wrong.

You pretty much skipped the rvs phase not that is bad but you claim Slandaar is fluffier than you remember.

Your case in 78 is pretty bad and pretty much saying because he speculated three scum he knows the set up is what your basically saying. Then when Slandaar replies 3 is the norm

your next post focus's on discrediting him that's pretty bad in itself.

But your making such a uproar about pieguy yet you pretty much vote TSO with out reasoning in the same freaking post.



VOTE: GG

@Slandaar I thought you had post restriction by the way you were acting silly was that just mucking around?

WHAT THE FUCK?

This is the thrid time in this game that I'm immediately voted back by someone I voted for but this one takes the cake in the OMGUS-league. Did anyone even read this response? A collection of random thought organized in some paragraphs, added with a vote.

About his vote on Amethyst being RVS: refer to posts 58 and 90. The only additional argument is an oddity of the 1vs1, which is hardly a backed-up vote. The hypocritical-aspect was more of an afterthought ("hypocritical to bout"), yet the way Garmr chooses to emphasize this emotional point screams AtE.

I already told you how your view about discussing past games is wrong. Pieguyn, Big Terp and me literally came out of a long-stretched game together right into LyLo. We're still carrying eachothers scents in our noses. If something is off within that trio, chances are we'll catch on to it more easily. That is what this discussion was good for, smelling each others butts again. I was never stuck in the previous game. Nobody was. Your comment was an easy shot from the sideline but with no real cause to make said comment, aside from you looking active and involved.

Why did it take you so long to comment on my bad case in 78. Why didn't you call me out on it before?
I still stand by my reservations being justified at the time, but I think this has been properly explained already and will not go over it again. You're beating a dead-horse.
Explain the part in bold. You seem to suggest I made some kind of a sudden switch?

My vote on T S O was reasoned (albeit minimally) as his approach seemed to be one of "wait and see", based on the little he had said. This reasoning can be found in my ISO. It wasn't as much of a scumread, it was rather a dragging him into action at that point. Not liking what I see since then, since his meta-study on me based on vocabulary (??) comes with a vote that does not show any maneuvring space given the reasons that come with it. It reads more like a decision than an actual feeling.

But Garmr is priority number 1 for me now. That post literally gave me the heebiejeebies and I'm surprised nobody else picked up on this.

Amethyst: The Marangal head only has experienced my scum-meta first-hand when it comes to finished games. The least she should do is check my town-meta if you want to get on a wagon with arguments like that.

[Grimgroove]

pinks? you cant fuckin back down from pinks. more important than your ride being on the line, its respect thats on the line here. the only way this ends is with one of you owing the other a ten second car, your pride, and your respect. so get that nos flowin kids

I'm assuming this "pink" stuff is a reference to the movie and Amethyst's flavor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Fast_2_Furious

Check the Suki-character, that's probably AK. Don't see how that could not be town-aligned.

That leaves BigTerp as the only option that's left.

VOTE: BigTerp

[Grimgroove]

pinks? you cant fuckin back down from pinks. more important than your ride being on the line, its respect thats on the line here. the only way this ends is with one of you owing the other a ten second car, your pride, and your respect. so get that nos flowin kids

I'm assuming this "pink" stuff is a reference to the movie and Amethyst's flavor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Fast_2_Furious

Check the Suki-character, that's probably AK. Don't see how that could not be town-aligned.

That leaves BigTerp as the only option that's left.

VOTE: BigTerp

Nice vote but it took way too many shitty assumptions to get there. Why is AK probably Suki, and why do you go even further and speculate that she must be town because her flavor (that you just made up) couldn't be scum-aligned?

How are those assumptions shitty?

Check the bolded. The mod clearly makes reference to the "pinks". A quick search on "fast furious pink" immediately takes you to Suki, who drives a pink car and is a leader of a female racer group called the pinks.. The wiki-page clearly states that the Vin diesel character made friends with that chick.

How are these assumptions "out there"?

The only way I could maybe see Amethyst lynched is if BigTerp has a powerrole that is somehow believable. But as far as I'm concerned, Amethyst is conftowned in 248.

[Grimgroove]

pinks? you cant fuckin back down from pinks.

Of course I forgot to bold it. This is what I'm talking about.

[Grimgroove]

Had never heared of pink slips before.
There is still a linguistic issue. What does "backing down from pinks" mean then? It's a vehicle title. How would you back down from a vehicle title? It's like saying "You can't back down from passports."

Amethyst also responded to my assumptions negatively (262, so I'm guessing you're right. She still does feel very town to me though, regardless of her conftown-position having fallen to the probtown one.

[Grimgroove]

Actually you been pushing real hard to defend AK haven't you gg and while my vote was on her you switched your vote to me. She was null on my list when the 1on1 started but after that and the fact she picked Terp instead of one of her scummier reads makes me wonder. Read her iso she doesn't even mention terp till the 1on1 starts.

Defending? I've just made reasonable assumptions based on what the moderator wrote.

I understand the decision to force consensus into a certain direction at this stage of the game. Day 1 is the most chaotic, and I think it's pro-town to use this ability under these circumstances. The choice for BigTerp is a bit weird, regardless of personal reads that may ave been discussed in their hydra-qt, it does go against the flow this day was following.

[Grimgroove]

Had never heared of pink slips before.
There is still a linguistic issue. What does "backing down from pinks" mean then? It's a vehicle title. How would you back down from a vehicle title? It's like saying "You can't back down from passports."

Amethyst also responded to my assumptions negatively (262, so I'm guessing you're right. She still does feel very town to me though, regardless of her conftown-position having fallen to the probtown one.

It's like honor if you back down from a pinkslip race. You lose your street rep. Can I ask have you seen the movies? There's quite a few pink slip races.

I think I've seen the first movie but don't remember much of it. I may confuse it with "Gone in 60 seconds" though, I definitely saw that one (Eleanor) and the genre and story seem similar.

[Grimgroove]

I still don't understand why people are afraid of voting someone who voted them. It pretty obvious that omgus is now a worthless scumtell as everyone knows about it. I think being afraid to vote someone who voted you is 1000 times more scummy than voting them back. If you have a scumread on them and think they should just be lynched just do it.

Fair enough. And you actually had some decent reasoning for voting Grim. Your vote wasn't as much of an OMGUS knee jerk type vote as I originally though.

Of course it was. Please tell me what you see in that Garmr-reaction that resembles an argument. I surely can't see it. He's telling me my case on him sucks (definition of omgus), focusses on the emotional argument of hypocrisy, but he didn't convince me that his comment about discussing previous games held any water. And even if it had been relevant, it was a sideline comment with what I thought contained some overacting. He now just rambles on about me possibly getting stuck in some previous game-discussion. He then proceeds to call my reservations surrounding pieguyn's list, well, I don't know what he actually calls them, but apparently he finds me scummy for it. Note that before I voted him he said NOTHING about it. And even if he did, I can't make heads or tails of the argument he's trying to make based off of that.
Not only is this collection of arguments poor at best, after making them he promoted me to his one and only obvscum read and has shown little when it comes to reads progression.

It definitely was a knee jerk type vote, don't let the pretty paragraphs fool you.

About the BigTerp vs. Amethyst, it's beginning to look like town vs town, but if there is still a chance either of them is scum, I think that chance is bigger in BigTerp's case. I'm not too fond of BigTerp's apparent willingness to sacrifice himself, there is no way he can be as certain of Amethyst-town as he is of himself town so I really don't see where that's coming from.

[Grimgroove]

And now I see the breadcrumb mara and her friend... Gladiator isn't a role I'm very familiar with having only seen it here, but your 1v1 comment now makes total sense.

Don't really see the point of breadcrumbing or why it's relevant to point that out. The action of the Gladiator speaks for itself, doesn't it? And it's not even alignment indicative.

[Grimgroove]

Thinking further, BigTerp claiming VT doesn't sound like something scum would do. Given Amethyst already claimed VT the least scum could do is claim a powerrole and possibly save himself or in the worst case out another power role through counterclaim.

*shrug*

Amethyst,c an you give your reads list?

[Grimgroove]

No a omgus is saying your case sucks with out providing points. I have provided reasoning behind all my cases which you just cover your ears and go lalalalalala.

I have tried to find this reasoning. Truly. Maybe I'll have better luck in this post. In any case I'm replying in full detail to it, because I see full what you're doing. Your 299 is a non-structured ball of half-sentences that is extremely difficult to reply to without wasting at least half an hour. And you wonder why I cherry-pick...
But I'm spending a lonely evening in my hotel room so you're out of luck . It's harvesting time and this cherry bush is getting raped.

Your response to my vote on you was completely full of emotion and you probably didn't expect it.

You're talking about 183, right? Full of emotion, yes, if you stopped reading after the first three words of that post. And didn't expect what? An OMGUS of these proportions? No, you're right, I didn't expect that. You may keep saying OMGUS is not a scumtell, and granted, in itself it isn't and people do it all the time. But yours is bad because your arguments are bad.
But it's not just emotion. What follows after the three words is me laying out why your vote is terrible. Why your particular OMGUS is scummy. But you go, how did you put it, "lalalala"? "lalalalala, omgus is not a scumtell anymore gimme something else lalalala".
Let me summarize it for you, in an effort to both get a decent reply, as well as for others, to unclog what you're clogging up by splitting hairs.
The essence of 183, for which I'll have to refer to 130 again:

1. The "hypocrisy"-argument. This one has been empasized by you, and was meant as an afterthought by me. Nonetheless, at the time I called you a hypocrite there was very little indication your vote on amethyst was based on anything but some previous game. You stated repeatedly you liked where put your vote ever since RVS without a clear argumentation trajectory. The only thing one can discern is the 1vs1 with someone Amethyst seems to consider town, but it's plain to see for anyone this can hardly be called an argument, even at the time. Scum wouldn't go on a 1v1 they proclaimed town, and neither would town. Nobody would. You decided to take Amethyst's statement literally to such an extent in after the fact, when saying to me that your vote was there for other reasons than previous game experience.

2. And this will address a point you ask for here below: talk about previous games. This point should be split up in two points as well, A and B.

2.A. The value of talking about a previous game in the case of BigTerp - pieguyn - myself
Like I said before, we just got out of a game together, where the three of us reached LyLo. We were reading eachother's posts for a month, right before this game started. Of course you get a feel of each other more easily under these circumstances, or at least one cane xpect it to. It should go without saying really. All three of us were town in that previous game, and the slightest difference in play here could hint at a different alignment within the trio.
The discussion was interesting. I'm not going to pull out quotes, simply because it's tedious. You don't need quotes to realize the following:
We each gave our views on each other, and one thing we agreed on: pieguyn looks very town. I needed that list clarified first, but right now I see no reason to wonder about pieguyn. He's playing just like before (maybe even a tad more proactive). This feeling is backed-up by both me and BigTerp. This is valuable.
The read on BigTerp is trickier, at least for me. After all, we did need a cop investigation to find out BigTerp's alignment for sure. I'm not sure if I wouldn't have found him suspect if he hadn't been checked. From what I can see, he was behaving similarly to the previous game as well, but here there's less certainty, from both pieguyn and myself. This is also valuable, these doubts mean something could be up.
The read on me, well, not my place to talk about it, BigTerp seems conflicted and has me as null (feels like the same thing I have with him), pieguyn hasn't beenv ery clear on how he reads me but following the discussion I see he feels my point in a way only someone who seems to trust me could feel it.

2.B. Your comment about this past game-talk.
This was a bad comment to make, first of all because it was untimely, second because it allowed you to continue into your sideline-commenting and gaining general appraisal for saying something that seems so sensible at first sight. You closing it off with some token of modesty is just the cherry of overacting as mister goodiegood I picked to put on top of the cake.
I'll get into more detail when it comes to this point once we start talking about your A and B scenarios, because I can more clearly illustrate in that context why your comment was so bad.

3. You bringing up shit about me that occurred before my vote on you but only chose to point out afterwards.
This shows your reactionary way of playing. You don't scumhunt. You look for dirt on who attacked you and throw it in his face. That's OMGUS, and damn right it's the scummy kind.

4. Pieguyn's list and my comments on it.
The dead horse. I really don't feel like going over this yet again, but I must.

In closing I want to bring up some lines from your 130 that show clearly you're reaching (lines in italics were proclaimed by Garmr):

-

"Also i'm not getting lost in the past game unlike"

I guess this was meant to say "unlike you". So what you're saying here is I got lost in the past game. But I never did such a thing. I never got lost. The discussion had barely started, we were exchanging views on eachother, comparing to the previous game. THAT'S IT!!

-

"Yes reading meta is interesting but continuing to talk about the a past game with out using it in context to recent plays is just what you said stifling possibly interesting discussion and insights. So what your proposing is to continue being stuck in the past game wasting precious time. No this wrong."

An inflated argument if I ever saw one. I did not "continue to talk about a past game". I did not "propose to continue being stuck". And I sure as hell didn't waste precious time. What were you doing during this precious time? Oh yes, "you had said nothing about everyone except 3 people" (cfr. below) and some sideline comment on gamestate.

-

"You pretty much skipped the rvs phase not that is bad but you claim Slandaar is fluffier than you remember."

I can't even discern an argument in there, but you made it a seperate paragraph so I guess there must be? Yes, Slandaar looked very playful and I didn't know what to make of it. Last time I played with him (ohnoes, here I go again) he ot down to business more rapidly, also in the neighborhood QT we had at the time. It surprised me that in a game like this, with a pressing deadline, he seemed to be taking it all rather easy.
Did I address your non-existent point now?

-

"Your case in 78 is pretty bad and pretty much saying because he speculated three scum he knows the set up is what your basically saying."

Yes, basically that's what the idea was that was playing around in my mind. I never called it a case though. But I always find it striking when people talk about set-ups in such a way that it seems they're taking the set-up as a given. This is a closed set-up game. There's no reason at all why anyone should be treating setups as a given, no matter what norms are out and about. When they do, an alarm bells rings. It rang with Desperado, and it resonated with me. (note: pieguyn has made clear this was a reference to the previous game, one that I had missed but one that had cleared up my suspicions in this regard)


-

"Then when Slandaar replies 3 is the norm your next post focus's on discrediting him that's pretty bad in itself."

First of all: this is not an argument. This is giving information, and then adding "that's pretty bad", to it. My focus did not change. It's not about the amount of scum being 3 or not. It's not about pieguyn being correct or not. It's about what I spoke about rearlier: the proclamation of speculation as fact. Because that's how it sounded. I never shifted focus.

-

"But your making such a uproar about pieguy yet you pretty much vote TSO with out reasoning in the same freaking post."

My reasoning for voting T S O was to be found in my ISO and was reminiscent of what I had blamed Slandaar for doing. This was a vote to get a response from T S O (which I got, you'll never guess what it was). I knew pieguyn would be responding anyway, given the arguments were concrete and coming from different angles.

Also before that I had said nothing about everyone except 3 people and the only scum read was null-scum.

Thank you for proving my point about you having stuck to the sideline before I called you out. What should be added though, as it makes matters even worse: Your only scumread was null-scum based on a NON-argument.
And now you're mister happy-wall aren't you? Scum found a tunnel to dig through.

I have said Many times why continuing the last game convo was bad. But now instead of me defending myself for my opinion which not alignment indicative. How about it's time you argue with my points instead of cherry picking bits of what I say. Also that that all i do is ramble on about it is because you fucking keep pressing me about it and it's the main bit of your case against me.

Urgh. Trying to distill the core message of this. You're saying I'm cherry pickin? Funny, because that's what I accused you of doing (emphasizing the hypocrisy-argument). I see you'll enumerate which argument I left unadressed here below. Very curious.

Are you naturally just thick

Down boy

First explain to me why a opinion about the environment is alignment indicative. I think you also have to realize everyone thinks differently and not everyone thinks the same about certain things.

Oh, so this is merely a matter of diverging opinions then is it? Then why would you vote me over it?
But no, this is not about a difference of opinion and you know full well it isn't. That last line is bullshit plain and simple.
And why your opinion on the environment is alignment indiciative? Precisely for the reason why you seem to think it isn't: it's a perfectly safe statement to make as scum. You comment about the weather, everyone agrees with you, all joy and merriment. But by talking about the weather people don't find out who you are. I hate people talking about the weather all the time. They're either stupid, or they have something to hide (or it's their job, but you're not an Inexperienced Challenged Player and this ain't a newbie game).

2nd
You have to prove why the environment is beneficial for town and disprove all the points I have made about how scum can hide in it. How getting caught up in the past game with out comparing it to plays in this game and just talking about it generally is town and has absoutly no scum benefits.

I've had more fun assignments in History class.
Scum could hide in it, just like how they hide in fluff. Yet this did not occur here. Why would I disprove your theoretical points? They're right, IN THEORY. The problem with your theory is: IT DOES NOT APPLY HERE. Yet you insist it does, all in an effort to call me obvscum.

Also you have to provide scum motivation for wanting to get involved in the game instead of sitting back and letting the day pass by with nothing to gain.

Are you talking about yourself now? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? You were NOT involved in the game, and that sideline comment seemed to hint at you not having any desire to do so. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!

2 You told me my view was wrong. I told you why my view was right. Like I said if we don't use it in context with this game like comparing behaviors and actions they done then it just becomes worthless fluff.

Scenario A. x"You did this last game player y and then did it again this game.
(In context)

Scenario B player x"Wow you totally had me fooled last game."
player y "Yeh i know man that was an awesome game"
Player x "That play player z made wow"

Get my point I feel like we were heading for a scenario B

In your last sentence you say you think we were heading for scenario B. And this is what makes your entire OMGUS so scummy,b ecause if you remember 130, there you said we were already in scenario B. Hence your comment was untimely. Yet you tried to make it sound relevant by claiming "I was stuck in a previous game and proclaiming we should continue to be in this state of affairs". It's a misrep. And you made a shift.

At the point of your intervention we were still all merrily in scenario A.

Also, even if it were scenario B, it would be fluff and that never lasts forever and, to use your own words, fluff "isn't necessarily a scumtell". Yet you made it one, all in an effort to back-up your OMGUS-vote.

3rd you have to prove it was scenario A using posts. It also must be the players that were in the past games so none of those throw away things like the joke rvs read. Which I already explained is null and if you want to use that you have to disprove all my reasoning on that to that.

No, I'll simply refer to what I said above. You giving me tedious assignments seems just like your way of discouraging me and I'm not playing along. Everyone can see for themselves what posts were made and can look at this post and see what I'm saying is correct.

So if you want to continue that part of the case on me (The bulk) Answer all that or I won't even bother responding.

Consider it done.

On a side note if you can't make heads or tails of my arguments it's because your stubborn and refuse to.

No, it's because you lack posting skills. Your posts are like a thick forest of random thoughts. It's difficult to cut through all that crap.

I bet when you do actually land a town role mafia has a field day with you.

I wouldn't count on it. We'll be in touch.

[Grimgroove]

I'm already looking forward to Majiffy's comments on this latest wall

[Grimgroove]

I hope someone will. I'll shut up for a while, you can consider that wall a collection of the twenty posts I would have made if it hadn't been for the energy invested in the wall.

And I'm an entertaining writer. It will be fun!

[Grimgroove]

If you are somehow in gods name town

then your scumdars fucking shit I want you to eat your words.

Sounds like you've already started eating your own. I see no reason why I should eat mine and respond to this ridiculous AtE in any other way than to call for your lynch, or even better: a vig to just shoot you dead.

Your entire 319 is bad (mostly just a repetition of what you already said), and you should feel bad for it. Did you actually just reprimand me for saying I'd rape a cherry bush? (as a metaphor for your post). Really?

I have done what you wanted: a detailed reply to everything you say. I did what you asked and now I'm a frustrating player who you'll refuse to acknowledge. That's not town play.

[Grimgroove]

Vote on T S O was explained.

[Grimgroove]

Slandaar, you are being dense.

I have explained why I voted T S O and not pieguyn, and Garmr's attack is not town at all because it simply ignores what I've said before. You encouraging this behavior is mindboggling.

My statement about not keeping pieguyn around until LyLo was clearly not related to this game. Again I find Garmr taking things literally in an obnoxious manner. Not keeping pieguyn around for LyLo was me referring to the previous game where he hammered me, leading to a mislynch. This was not and never will be an argument to vote pieguyn in this game. It was a joke.

And as to me voting T S O when making remarks about pieguyn's list: those remarks were made after Slandaar was pressing me for them. They were never meant to constitute a cas eof pieguyn-scum, not until I had further clarifications. This was a state of the game where reactions were being sought. I was seeking it from pieguyn through questions which I felt he'd answer (given also Desperado asked them) regardless of votes. My vote on T S O was a continuation of my remark that T S O's initial approach to the game didn't sit well with me, combined with Slandaar's similar approach having changed by the time of that vote. It was a pressure vote for action, tha tdid not need further explanation or motivation as I'd made me point clear on that before hand.

All this information was to be found in my wall Slandaar and Garmr. I guess Slandaar didn't read it, but Garmr did and so I know he purposefully ignored what I said in this regard in order to further found his non-existing case, that is all bluntl the reuslt of an emotional omgus he's now trying to back-up with non-arguments.

[Grimgroove]

You didn't just cut the posts up, you also cut out the context which is the one where you, Slandaar, were asking me why I thought Desperado's quesiton was a good one. This was not me making a case against pieguyn, this was me explaining why I wanted more information from pieguyn.

I could understand a different perception on this matter, maybe, but 1. the fact this perception by Garmr only came about AFTER I voted him + 2. this perception lingering even though I explained time and again that this perception is wrong makes me less lenient every day when it comes to this being used as an argument to Garmr actually scumhunting and to me actually being scum.

The thing is Slandaar: you are wong. And it's strange to see you so misguided, to the extent I'm wondering what's in this for you. You are buddying up to Garmr and it's difficult for me to see why. It can't be because of his arguments or reasoning, so something else must be at play here.

[Grimgroove]

And yeah, that wall was too hard to read too many numbers and not enough quotes I had no clue what you were talking about, not sure how others did.

You obviously didn't even try, there are plenty of quotes inthere. And the numbers are links by the way.

[Grimgroove]

Wild accusations? You consciously took away the context of my posts, making it seem like I was making a case against pieguyn while voting T S O, when all I was doing was replying to questions asked by YOU, clarifying why I thought Desperado's question was a good one, a sentiment you did not seem to understand. How is that a wild accusation? It's a fact, present at the bottom of page 14.

You are misguided in thinknig Garmr is town, let alone obviously so. The only argument you seem to take account of is that your initial reaction to my vote on T S O was the same. While I could understand such an initial reaction, I don't understand Garmr's because that was not an initial reaction (it came only after I voted him, several posts later), and I don't understand yours right here and now because I've explained it.

What I do udnerstand and see is that Garmr is holding on to the argument as to a life buoy, but the fact of the matter is: it is not an argument.
If my explanations can't change your initial reaction that tells me you seem to be clinging to the argument as well. But it's not an argument and count on it I won't be the only one realizing this. It's an impression you had when I placed that T S O vote, and it's an impression you are intent on clinging on. But there is no factual basis. Definitely not after I SHOWED you may T S O vote didn't come falling out of the air, and the fact that me not voting pieguyn at that point is perfectly reasonable.

Which pieguyn question are you talking about?

[Grimgroove]

I found it but see no reason why I should answer that. pieguyn is in a better position to do so.
I'll tell you right now though that yes, I think it is relevant, and no, I don't think pieguyn is scum. I'll elaborate on my view on this after pieguyn has spoken for himself.

Going to go over this topic again, this Garmr-business has taken up enough of my time for now and I feel I'm missing a big chunk of this game due to that. Back later today.

[Grimgroove]

Wild accusations? You consciously took away the context of my posts, making it seem like I was making a case against pieguyn while voting T S O,

Yes that's the whole point; I was showing why it comes over how it does.

It read very much like you thought pie was scum or at least had high suspicions and you can see why now.

How can it seem like that to you? You were part of the conversation,w eren't you? It's your questions that instigated my responses, so you knew damn well where I was coming from.

I don't understand Garmr's because that was not an initial reaction (it came only after I voted him, several posts later), and I don't understand yours right here and now because I've explained it.

Pretty sure this is wrong. He first said it quite early on.

Pretty sure? Why don't you check for yourself and see how wrong you are.

But there is no factual basis. Definitely not after I SHOWED you may T S O vote didn't come falling out of the air, and the fact that me not voting pieguyn at that point is perfectly reasonable.

I still think a Pie vote makes more sense based on what you were saying.

The point of the question to Pie initially was because you were suspicious of his read post (at least that is the point of it when you think it is useful). It doesn't matter if you were making a case or not, that is the point, you were suggesting that question is useful because Pie's post looks suspicious.

Our opinions will continue to differ on this matter. I only have one vote to give and I didn't see why would I need a vote on pieguyn to get my point across. The vote on T S O was/felt more natural at the time, given my concerns surrounding you were very similar to those I had with T S O, and hence a removal of my vote on you almost naturally resulted in a vote for T S O.

And yes, with regards to my train of thought of the why you consider Garmr town so much: you have to lay this out for me. I don't see anything in his argumentation that warrants him to be called Official Townie #1 (or 2, for that matter).

And to you not reading my wall: if you had read it you'd see there are plenty of quotes. They're just not in the format that you'd expect them to be, but they are there, italics and all.

[Grimgroove]

A note to the mod and all players:

I shall be V/LA for the next few days as it my daughters birthday. I shall return in due course, but as I'm sure you are aware some things are far more important.

The next few days? Now I wish I hade a several-day-birthday

atm I saw him being scum and throwing blame around with incorrect logic as a very real possibility @_@

What changed that?

@Garmr: ok, you've survived my wall of questions. I'm starting to see your ideas =o= though I still disagree with some of it

What? You see his ideas but disagree with them? What ideas? What do you mean by "seeing his ideas"?

Going to try and compose a reads list after oing through the thread again. That 1vs1 from yesterday (referring to the one between me and Garmr :p) made me lose the general overview of this game completely.

[Grimgroove]

I wanted to continue the discussion with Slandaar so I could get a better read on him. but he died = =

Whut?
You didn't know he died when continuing the discussion with him?
Whut?
This makes zero sense.
Zero.

And your sudden shift with regards to Garmr makes equal sense (that being zero). I do not see where he's coming from, even with Slandaar dead, who was vouching for him.

[Grimgroove]

Correction: I do see where Garmr's coming from, but it's not a town kind of place.

You see town motivations? Which ones? Where? Be specific.

And try to make a point of continuing discussions with people who are alive. Like me.

[Grimgroove]

Nooo I should of died instead of slandaar. I bet it's all GG was fault he would be the one to most likely kill slandaar.

VOTE: GG

1. Fake.
2. Deduction for dummies.

Majiffy-Desperado sounds like town-town to me.

More later, going to be a busy day.

[Grimgroove]

Eh.
Well, let me start off by stating I believe your claim. So congratconfirmeds on becoming a townread, however bad your townplay has been before all of this.
Your findings in this instance do indicate some logic, but there’s one mistake: I had no reason to kill Slandaar as scum, apart from the general impression that he looked town to everyone. I had worked hard to convince him near the end of Day 1, and if you r-read you’ll find that I managed to do so, or was at least getting there.
As far as your findings go, all I can say is: it was either someone else who blocked you, but I find that as unlikely as you do. My current line of thinking is a mafia strongman. I haven’t got anything to do with this.

[Grimgroove]

I was planning on getting my head out of the tunnel I had gotten myself in. But I was still convinced you were scum at the time, yes.

And your crumb is convincing, so is your immediate reaction after D2 given the explanation. It adds up. I see no reason to doubt your claim.

[Grimgroove]

this seems really weird for me = = night actions for me tend to be a lot of WIFOM, so the fact you're defending against this logic here seems really odd. instead of saying "anyone could have killed Slandaar" you try to specifically show it wasn't you. also, why do you find it unlikely that someone else blocked Garmr?

vote: Grimgroove

Opportunistic vote detected.

I did say anyone could have killed Slandaar. Literally even, I think. Anyone but me. Slandaar was a generally strong townread so was a good option to kill.

About Garmr, my first line of thinking was that they wouldn't block Garmr because he had his tunnel vision entirely turned to me. His scumlists were all GG, GG, GG. After giving it some thought, i might have been too quick to draw that conclusion. Someone could have blocked him, hoping he'd notice the block, and then make him turn against me even more.

Whatever it is, it did learn us one thing: Garmr is town. Meaning I should get to my reads list very soon.

And as far as your reasons go for voting me: they're tremendously poor.

Amethyst: what gives? Are you going to give an explanation for that strong scumread you have one me or are you going to sit there with that vote and let others do the work for you?

Reads list TODAY.

[Grimgroove]

Expect something from me within the hour.

[Grimgroove]

Pieguyn, that brief assessment shows me who you know at least.

How did you know that's what pieguyn's list was about?

[Grimgroove]

Btw, that question wasn't what I was talking about in 472 :p Reading up over the game again to get reads, but I had missed that line before.

Why didn't you assume it was random, Generic? You say yourself there were two possibilities: random or people he knew. Why did you assume the one over the other?

[Grimgroove]

@mod: I know you want things done fast and furiously, but don't you think a deadline right at the end of a weekend is suboptimal? Half of the people won't even be here before deadline I expect.

[Grimgroove]

Amethyst Kitty is scum and needs to be lynched, rather today than tomorrow.
If not her, pieguyn.

If not him, Marquis, but that would be mostly policy, and some slight associative-tell. He's useless and anti-town. He could as well be a town-lurker as a scum-lurker, the fact of the matter is that he's a lurker and clearly does not give two shits about this game. In a fast-paced set-up like this one, town can't afford to keep Obvious liabilities like him around for too long. And pardon me for saying it, but that V/LA of his seems awfully *ok, I can't think of the term in English anymore, you know, where it suits him well?*

Cases on other two incoming.

First, my thoughts on others, which I feel are mostly secondary at this point due to the strong conviction I've garnered on the other two. I think we should focus on them and based on interactions with these slots figure out which of the questionmarks below may belong with them:

Garmr: He's confirmed town. His claim checks out, not only because it hasn't been counter-claimed by another protective role, but also because the crumb + the reaction right after the night match perfectly.

Desperado: Solid town-read on him ever since the start. I get the feeling we're often on the same track in our thoughts. Same thought = same mindset = same alignment. He deals with Majiffy's pressure in a very natural way, and you hear from his tone that he's genuinely pissed.

Majiffy: Town. I have been in a few games with him, and even though I don't know his scum-meta, this is 100% his town-meta. He picks a person, calls him scum, convinces mainly himself that this is true, starts being condescending and antagonistic (albeit in a very entertaining way), shitstorm ensues. This overestimation I have come to know as Majiffy's town signature.

The Majiffy-Desperado thing screams TvT. Both people need to stop distracting each other. This TvT in particular left town in a bad shape: we're 20 hours from deadline and got almost no cases, except for the one from Garmr on me, but I already got into that. Garmr, town as he may be, is stuck in a confbias ever since his OMGUS and refuses to get out of it. (here's where my case on pieguyn and Amethyst would start, but I'll save that for next)

TSO: The one defining thing he did from my POV was change his read on me completely, where first he thought I was scum for posting mlechanically,b ut then he liked my wall and considered me very town. That felt very good. Mostly because I could use that support at the time. But! But but but, his vote on Majiffy today is terrible. It sounds more like a policy lynch on MAjiffy as a player, rather than for thinknig he's scum. If TLO wants a policy lynch, I'd expect him to go for Marquis, given TSO claimed himself he needs to die with fire.

Generic-Telo (lumping them together): I'm not quite certain about Generic-Telo being TvT, as I am with Desperado-Majiffy, but I am pretty sure Generic is town. The fact of the matter is that ever since 98 and 101 they have been stuck in a Tunnel (of Love?) together and they don't seem to be giving any signs of wanting to get out. But when you look at the two posts that started it, there wasn't really much to go off on. For a fleeting moment I suspected a scumslip in Generic's interactions with pieguyn, but other than that I saw nothing scummy come from this slot.
Telo on the other hand, something funny there. Seemed to want to get out of the tunnel in 245, as if backing down. She gives Generic "benefit of the doubt" for the rest of the Day. In 432 she suddenly decides, out of nowhere, to call out Generic yet again, threatening with a vote. At first, I thought it was a joke. The post sounded a bit fluffy. But today we are looking at the same situation: Telo voting Generic and Generic voting Telo. If consensus would require it and for some reason my two cases don't take off, I can see myself move onto the Telo wagon. I prefer a Telo-lynch over a no-lynch.

Windblown: Frankly, I can't read him that well. Most of what he says makes sense and doesn't seem too out there. Whenever I read 119 I'm getting scumvibes because of all the "on the one hand, on the other hand" and him pointing at others during his defense. But that's his only post that gives me scumvibes. He responded to remarks made on that post by several people in a satisfying enough way for me not to want to consider him today's lynch.


But like I said, whatever I said about the people above, it's not as strong as what I feel about AK and pieguyn. I hope to get those cases posted before OMGUS :p

[Grimgroove]

If your reasons for wanting to lynch TSO are simply because he showed support for my wall, then I'd rather you'd reconsider because they would be the same bad reasons as for voting me. Possibly even worse.

[Grimgroove]

And pardon me for saying it, but that V/LA of his seems awfully *ok, I can't think of the term in English anymore, you know, where it suits him well?*

Convenient!
That was the word I was looking for. Sorry, but that was driving me crazy

[Grimgroove]

Amethyst, well, you'll just have to bear with her ISO and my comments on it.

Short version for the tl;dr's: Amethyst Kitty shows flagrant inconsistencies in her reads. These inconsistencies are the result of them not having any reasons for their reads. They are just there. And then they just change. And then they just change again. She rarely gives reasons for reads. It does allow her a lot of flexibility in which wagons she joins. And also when it comes to calling a challenge on someone. I first considered this challenge a town-move just because of its timing, but it's just a cheap way of earning towcred. The fact she challenged BigTerp should be made a much bigger deal of.

I made a mistake. Ever since that "pink slips" thing I somehow had Amethyst in my mind as close to conftown, and never could really shake that feeling during the 1vs1. The fact AK never openly denied being that pink female racer allowed the idea to linger in my mind.

BigTerp also made a mistake. If anyone, he should have noticed Amethyst had no reasons to challenge HIM specifically. He made his own lynch too easy.

During the 1 vs 1 she made only ONE argument as to BigTerp being scum. The only other thing she did was coast off her Gladiator-enabler hoping it would make people read her as town and vote BigTerp out of a mini-POE. And this is exactly what happened.

Look for yourself.

This summary was also an introduction, enabling some of Amethyst's posts speaking for themselves.

Spoiler:

VOTE: Amethyst Kitty
You're up first.

bastard.

You said troll, does that mean you don't plan on doing anything?

Desperado is town. That's clear.

Mara you need to post from your hydra and I will be able to make a call on you... Or do you fear my ability to read you?

Majiffy won't have a clue again, I've seen his mafia ability first hand... Not up to much.

Pieguyn, that brief assessment shows me who you know at least.

The rest.... Meh.

Let's see that insta wagon like last time now. Bring it.

You know I don't fear anything Generic, and you're going straight for discrediting me again before I even post. What's up with that? We can make a 1v1, a

true

1v1, happen.

The discrediting-argument sounds overly defensive at that stage of the game. Then we have the crumb.

I need to repeat this crumb is utterly pointless objectively speaking. The Gladiator confirms himself through the action. There is no need for crumbing, you confirm yourself automatically. This to me reeks as scum wanting to gain extra cred through this crumbing. Scum being happy to have something they can crumb at all.

pietown

?

IDK about desp, his opening has a similar feel to his two recent scum openings

A reason, but 1. meta, 2. comes with a waffle.

VOTE: Amethyst Kitty
You're up first.

bastard.

You said troll, does that mean you don't plan on doing anything?

Desperado is town. That's clear.

Mara you need to post from your hydra and I will be able to make a call on you... Or do you fear my ability to read you?

Majiffy won't have a clue again, I've seen his mafia ability first hand... Not up to much.

Pieguyn, that brief assessment shows me who you know at least.

The rest.... Meh.

Let's see that insta wagon like last time now. Bring it.

You know I don't fear anything Generic, and you're going straight for discrediting me again before I even post. What's up with that? We can make a 1v1, a

true

1v1, happen.

Simple question.

Do you have a scum read on me?

Ur no fun :/

no, I don't have a scum-read on you, and I don't think I should. Am I wrong?

VOTE: Desp

Desperado did not post in between this vote and the earlier waffle. This is the summum of mechanical.

Hey Mara...whatever you're seeing, it isn't really there. I'm town.

@ Slandaar: I just got done with a mini with a 2 man scum team + third party lover team. Why are you going out of your way to answer it for him? I think Pie would be more than capable of saying "I thought everyone knew 13p minis are usually 10:3" and that'd be that.

Prove it.

Generic, I didn't have you as town until you responded to me. It wasn't exactly the response I wanted, but it's still a town-response though I do wish you would play around a little :/

Appeasement towards Generic.

Town:
Generic
Sladaaar
Pie

?

Hmm..

VOTE: Windblown

This is mainly an unvote of Desperado. Why the Windblown vote?

I'm feeling like that one is the better option between him and grim

Suddenly I'm there as well. Still no reasons. They are explaine dbelow though, and this is not yet AK scumreading me.

VTOECOUNT DAY 1 NUMBER 3

windblown (3) - marquis tso desperado
amethystkitty (2) - majiffy garmr
tso (2) - windblown grimgroove
grimgroove (2) - telo slandaar
generic (1) - bigterp
bigterp (1) - pieguy
desp (1) - amethystkitty

not voting - generic
there are 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

deadline is in (expired on 2013-10-21 10:00:00)

I had forgotten about TSO, but given the shortness of the days, the lynch isn't likely going to be outside of us four

= The vote on Windblown was an opportunistic one on the counterwagon.

This is also the TSO I have come to expect when it comes to his town-play, so I probably won't go there anyway

WHICHEVER HEAD THIS IS?!

<///3

I think TSO is town, and grim feels town. From what I know of his scum game, he is very capable of making himself look incredibly town and proactive. His questions are weird, though I don't get the sense that he's trying to mask his alignment this game which is good enough for me to vote windblown over him, who hasn't done anything and who's only content post is him pushing suspicion on someone who is (at that point IIRC) the leading wagon

This though is AK setting themselves up for scumreading me no matter how tonwish I behave, based on a meta argument they can summon at will.
There's also a reason for Windblow: not enough activity. (...)

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Grimgroove

My partner just pointed something out that reminiscent of a game where he has played a game as scum and, Wind's post has gotten progressively townier. I don't think I'd mind keeping him around for a bit, if anything he is amusing

The meta argument is summoned to hop on the other wagon now the Windblown = inactive argument doesn't hold up anymore.

Ohmaigod

you guys are killing me

and we need direction, I feel like we need this. Sorry Mala :/

Terp

, I challenge you to a RACE FOR THE PINKS!

This is the first time in their entire ISO BigTerp is even mentioned. This was not a choice based on reads, but a tactical one.

VOTE: BigTerp

Still no reasons.

VOTE: Amethyst Kitty
You're up first.

bastard.

You said troll, does that mean you don't plan on doing anything?

Desperado is town. That's clear.

Mara you need to post from your hydra and I will be able to make a call on you... Or do you fear my ability to read you?

Majiffy won't have a clue again, I've seen his mafia ability first hand... Not up to much.

Pieguyn, that brief assessment shows me who you know at least.

The rest.... Meh.

Let's see that insta wagon like last time now. Bring it.

You know I don't fear anything Generic, and you're going straight for discrediting me again before I even post. What's up with that? We can make a 1v1, a

true

1v1, happen.

but, OMG! Crumb first post guys!

Mentioning the crumb for towncred. Completely pointless other than that from Town POV.

I have my town that I had announced

And then there was desp right under that

Garmr and Jiffy were null, mala had jiffy as maybe scum but O saw enough town intent there to not fully agree with

And then telo as maybe scum but I am not confident in reading her and I have never read jerk correctly

And then there was groove and Terp. Grooves reaction to me changing my read on home suddenly easy strange in a townis sorta way and the one game I recall having with terp, she was pretty town early on. The fact that I don't have that yet this game is pretty disturbing, but looking at her reaction (her being a VT, while still wond ring if I still have some sorta power evvej after I said I didn't) makes me feel like I made the right choice

And no, I didn't know that the deadline would be extended.

Unfortunately, I am reduced to a phone for the duration of this phase so my content the rest of this day is limited.

Finally reads, after having been pressed to do so.

Note how I am suddenly townisch again.

And the reason for BigTerp? Meta. I don't have a townread on him now, as opposed to in another game where I did have it. Reasons why? What exactly the difference is? No.

BigTerp's VT claim pointed to BigTerp being town. Like I said at the time, BigTerp seeing his dire position, would at least try to out a powerclaim as scum. The fact he didn't actually made his VT claim really strong. But even if you don't consider it strong, I don't see how you can consider it an encouring thing, an extra argument to him being scum. AK, can you explain how in your POV it was? I bet you can't. This was windowdressing. Feigning conviction.

I'm sorry that making short posts is a sign of scum to you because you're refusing to treat each player individually. go back to open 510

Oh TSO is nulltown, and window has done enouj sine i pressured him to be town, and marquis I couldn't challenge cuz con mafia

explain me

Emotinz

In Con mafia, I had pushed you as scum and would have even 1v1'd there and I hard gotten that town read on you. To late

You/nachobert were the first term I had come up with and i feel bad for pinching you

Your play here is also incredibly similar to how you were behaving there so...

This was one of the little assoicatives I could see with marquis. If I'm reading this correctly, she's calling Marquis' play here as his usual townplay. A subtle defense of the persona non grata and a possible effort to discourage people wanting to call him out on it.

And that first post states why I used my ability now... I read it somewhere back there, but it had nothing to do with self-preservation (which is a silly thought in the first place since it puts us on a line) nor does it uahe to do with groove ( who had my vote prior anyway)

Her vote on me suddenly becomes a token of her towniness?

and I would defintely lynch Jiffy over Desperado

though, Grooves wagon is much more sexier

No reasons. All we've gotten so far is ... yeah, I guess the meta argument has been summoned again. And Garmr's circumstancial evidence.

Sorry, this afternoon turned into late tonight. Posting from my nook so it might be a bit disjointed.

ISO on slaan leads me to believe he was innocent.
Big Terp's parting words re Majiffy and me... attempting to deflect the mafia away fro us as night targets?
Conceivable since we two voted AK. If so... if so nothing he's dead too.

WHat do you think of this post Generic?

I thought it made her a little bit more town

How? Telo merely stated why people who've already flipped are town. How does that make her more town?
This shit is so artifical it isn't funny anymore.

VOTE: Amethyst Kitty

pieguyn's case will have to wait for tomorrow. Need sleep, need bed, but he's scum as well. Close to certain of it.

[Grimgroove]

Look, I'm going to try and get my case on pieguyn in before this day is over (in twelve hours), but one thing for now is obvious: we need a compromise with 12 hours, is it?

I see 3 wagons where a compromise is still feasible:

Grimgroove: Sadly, it is so. I've got the most votes at this point, but two of them are from scum. I'm convinced of this. If, however, my mislynch would help you make you see that, I'm even willing to hammer myself if the alternative means a no lynch. AK's vote is unmotivated a fuck, she just agrees with Garmr's analysis of the events of Night 1, which though a theoretical possibilty, are just that. A theoretical possibility. They are not arguments. And peiguyn's way of trying tod ebunk my defense of it is just plain bad. That will hopefully be made clear after I made my case on him, I just don't know if I'll have enough time to do so today.

Telo: The tunnel needs to stop, and I'm not lynching Generic. His arguments against Telo make sense, feel town, and are only moderately addressed by Telo. I don't see how Telo has been "strong town".

Marquis: As far as I can see, EVERYONE agrees on him being useless, yet NOBODY votes him. This in itself is odd enough, and points to him being scum, with buddies trying to get another mislynch before actually lynching him. The only thing that's annoying in his case is that he's V/LA, meaning we can't get a claim out of him before we lynch him, possible making us lose a PR.

Sadly, pieguyn is still coasting on a day 1-townread he obtained there for, let's admit it, no reason at all. I gave it to him for wanting to interact with me and BigTerp. I gave him that townread way too easily. And AK is still riding the "too-Gladiator-to-be-scum-wave". I'm just hoping the cases I present today will be held into account later on, but I realize today I'm not getting them lynched.

Please consider the options above, I'm willing to hop on any of them, except for my own (unless if it's a hammer and it's clear I'm the only option for a lynch left).

I'm not considering Majiffy as a compromise, because I can't see myself voting him. Everything he's been involved in looks like TvT to me, meaning we don't get any wiser if we lynch him and he flips town, as I expect would happen.

VOTE: Telo

@Garmr: I still have doubts surrounding T L O, but his read on me, his interactions with me, which is always the greatest basis for my read, feels town. It felt that his shift from a scumread on me to a townread came for a reason, which points to him actually trying to figure things out. The one thing that makes me wonder about him is his vote on Majiffy, but I percieve it as some macho-fest between him and Majiffy. Of course, with thight deadlines like these, time shouldn't be wasted on this.

I hope tog et back in time to move my vote, if necessary, and ideally to make my case and reply to pieguyn.

[Grimgroove]

522 and 525 are dreadful.

But let me get to yesterday's business first.

[Grimgroove]

Nooo I should of died instead of slandaar. I bet it's all GG was fault he would be the one to most likely kill slandaar.

VOTE: GG

I should post things like this more often.

Grimgroove, you've suummarised pretty well that Mara is an inconsistent and odd player.

Why is she scum, as opposed to this?

You've shown all the faults in her playstyle, but you haven't shown us why they're scummy.

I think I've shown there's more at play than faults in playstyle. Don't you agree that the lack of an explanation for the BigTerp challenge (why him?) is scummy? How can there NOT be an explanation? Not a single argument?

[Grimgroove]

I've got a theory on Majiffy and his actions of today and long story short of it: I don't think he's scum. I'm actually failry certain he's town. But I don't want to divulge anything more for now.

[Grimgroove]

@pieguyn:

First question: What was your motivation for running to AK's defense like that?

I'm still fine with lynching Marquis or Telo. ofc I'm definitely fine with lynching Grim

I'd prefer to ask you this in real-time, since this would definitely give you away, but ok: give me your reasons why you would, "of course", be fine with lynching me. Bullet points preferable. No "buts" and "ifs".

A reason, but 1. meta, 2. comes with a waffle.

weren't you defending the usage of past games earlier to sort people? That's the definition of meta. Now it seems you think meta isn't a valid reason for pushing someone? 0.0

This is entirely different. I never thought of using meta as a reason to push anyone. I defended meta as a good way of getting a personal feeling of people, getting a first, personal impression. But you can not, can NEVER, expect meta to be enough of a reason for other people to follow suit. And this expectation defines AK's case against me. A combination of some mysterious meta hanging in the air, and the coasting off a townread stemming from their Gladiation shenanigans.

And what is AK's meta reason? Have you seen it? No. It has still yet to be expressed by AK, as to what that reason exactly is. All you guys got was some mysterious reference of "her partner" having noticed "something" about my play. Ony to later withdraw from that position again. And then later return to it. If this isn't opportunistic scum-hopping ased on a convenient non-argument, I don't know what is.
I can already guess what the meta-argument is, but I'll give them the honour of emberassing themselves.

Desperado did not post in between this vote and the earlier waffle. This is the summum of mechanical.

IMO arguments based just on votes aren't valid. it's one thing to say someone is voting someone who they're townreading, or if the vote is conducive to a lynch. but IMO just moving their votes with no explanation, or voting someone who's not necessarily the person they're talking to atm, is not a scumtell and I find myself doing that a lot when I wanna pressure multiple slots.

Well, IMO you are wrong. That vote was mechanical. I will grant you this was not the strongest point of my case, but it is a genuine impression I had and that I feel would resonate with others reading that passage objectively.

BigTerp's VT claim pointed to BigTerp being town. Like I said at the time, BigTerp seeing his dire position, would at least try to out a powerclaim as scum. The fact he didn't actually made his VT claim really strong.

this seems subject to WIFOM. and it happened after she already challenged him. what other option does she have, vote herself? @_@

I don't blame her for not voting herself. Hell, I was on BigTerp's wagon as well, for foolishly considering AK more of a conftown.
I blame her for considering BigTerp's VT-claim as an argument towards him being scum, which I find an impossible leap to make. That VT-claim made him more town, for reasons already explained, and AK's statement it didn't make him more town suunds more like someone intent to portray conviction rather than someone who genuinely reached a logical conclusion. In short: she was playing stupid. So she can say "oops" after it all happened more convincingly.

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: Amethyst Kitty


Case on pieguyn tomorrow. Tired.

[Grimgroove]

majiffy reminds me of me... and then again not me

Oh. HEY!!! Why haven't you been vigged yet?

This person can also be lynched as far as I'm concerned.

[Grimgroove]

also, I wanna know your opinion on the interactions between Majiffy and Desp

TvT, as I said numerous times before. Are you even reading?

My opinion shifted a bit though. Where I first thought this abbreviation signified Town vs Town, I am getting more convinced we're dealing with a Tard vs Town-situation right now, and moving to a Tard vs Tard one if this doesn't stop soon. But still, TvT.

What I propose both involved parties do is the following:

1/ Look at the discussion between Generic and Telo, which we now know to be a TvT.
2/ Look at the useful information this discussion has produced.

After they have seen during point 2 that the result is "nothing", they will hopefully realize that if they are wrong about eachother, which I sincerely think they are, this will leave us with this same ball of "nothing" in the next stage. The next stage being day 4. Does it sound like a good idea to have "nothing" on day 4?

Now, of course, the involved parties being convinced that they are scum, will not agree with this plan. As a constructive way out of this I propose they do the following:

1/ Make a comprehensive list of arguments they have against each other.

After this, this comprehensive list might may convince others that their case makes sense and is not just the senseless fight I'm looking at now (that's what's in it for them), or they will realize themselves that, in the end, they don't have as much on each other as they first thought and move on (that's what's in it for us).

Regardless of the conclusion, after this they should AT LEAST look at the other slots in this game. Generic has made himself useless because all he's done this game that I can remember is get on Telo's back and stay on it. What does that leave us with now that he's dead? Nada. Zilch.

tl;dr: Their tunnels are unconstructive and look like an e-penis-fight.

@Majiffy: Why is it too late to lynch Amethyst Kitty?
And in case you were wondering, you are the "tard" in the current Tard vs Town. That "argument" where Desperado didn't state it was an L-1 is truly abysmal. Using the absence of that notification to explain a hammer you seem to be apologizing for, but at the same time you admitting to have preferred over a no-lynch, even makes you look scummy. The only reason why I think it doesn't make you look scummy is because if for anyone, the "too scummy to be scum"-argument applies to you. I don't use it as a general guideline but in this case I can't help but do so.

[Grimgroove]

Because the only proper time to lynch AK was d1 when she made the gladiator. As of now I don't see it worthwhile to lynch.

"Worthwhile"? What do you mean by "worthwhile"? Do you townread AK?

And ok, the argument was about T S O and not Desperado, but it doesn't make it less stupid. You said yourself Telo was the only viable wagon at the time. What would an L-1-announcement have changed?

Also, if you didn't know it was L-1, there was a high chance your own vote would have been an L-1 considering the fast accumulation of votes. Why didn't you bother to check, so that you could announce it in case your own vote was an L-1? You didn't. Your argument is not only stupid, it's hypocritical.

Please enumerate your arguments against Desperado.

[Grimgroove]

Earlier you called it this:

I've made a deadline vote on the only viable wagon of the day.

And now you claim there was still even the remote possibility of moving a wagon on to Desperado? Then how was Telo "the only viable wagon"?

You ignored the odd-numbered paragraphs in my previous post.

And aside from all that:

An L-1 announcement would have led to a claim which would have probably led to a dissolved wagon which means I would have had a chance to get a Desperado wagon going.

You cannot seriously believe this? This would require not only Telo to come online in time, but also five (5!) people to not only come online by deadline but also agree with you.

This is bullshit. You are full of bullshit. Even someone as stubborn as yourself should acknolwedge this by now. If you keep hanging on to this I can't help but agree with Desperado, TownMajiffy would drop this argument right after reading this post. You need to drop it right now and get your head out of that very dark and smelly place. The fumes are getting to you.

[Grimgroove]

What did you mean by a lynch on AK not being "worthwhile"? I find that an extremely strange choice of words. Are you avoiding taking a stance on Amethyst Kitty?

Do you think Amethyst Kitty is town or scum? Why?

[Grimgroove]

Desperado was caught fabricating reads. When caught on it, his answer was to OMGUS. When pressed on his OMGUS reaction, his answer was "TownMajiffy would have dropped this argument by now".

Is this the meat and potatoes you are talking about? Meat and potatoes? This is dry rice with a pinch of vinegar.

VOTE: Majiffy

Bon appetit!

Your non-read on Amethyst Kitty is even worse than anything else really. It is never too late to sort out any player, gladiator or not. The fact you admit to not even want to bother because for some unfathomable reason, according to you, it is too late to do so shows zero (0!) interest in scumhunting.

When Desperado flips scum, you're next.

Thank you, Madame Soleil. Let me give you a glimpse of the future: You and Amethyst Kitty and probably Pieguyn/Marquis will be catching up in the dead qt over a game badly played, with your scumpartners being raving mad at you after such a poor performance. Too scummy to be scum my ass. Your arrogance actually made you believe your contrived arguments could convince anyone. I overestimated you. I sincerely thought you were simply fishing for opportunistic votes when I saw the way you acted at the start of this day. No scum could be so transparent, I thought, and definitely not Majiffy. But your arrogance actually did you in here.

[Grimgroove]

And to give the other scumbut some attention as well:

@pieguyn:

First question: What was your motivation for running to AK's defense like that?

nice misrep, I never intended to defend AK. I pointed your logic out cause it was relevant to my case on you and I saw some similarity to your logic on me. in fact I would have preferred if AK had posted herself before I mentioned it so I could first see what she said herself, but I wasn't sure if I could post again until the deadline...

I's not a misrep. Never mind your intentions, you ran to AK's defense and I asked you why. This is not a misrep, everybody can see you did.

Why was it so important to get a reply to that before deadline? AK's wagon wasn't going anywhere. You could have easily let AK answer it for herself if that is what you truly wanted.

I'm still fine with lynching Marquis or Telo. ofc I'm definitely fine with lynching Grim

I'd prefer to ask you this in real-time, since this would definitely give you away, but ok: give me your reasons why you would, "of course", be fine with lynching me. Bullet points preferable. No "buts" and "ifs".

your use of IMO false logic. also you calling me opportunistic is making me watch out a lot o.o the "ofc" was there to differentiate between you, my new read, and the two reads I still had from D1, given I was mostly focusing on you then.

Why is false logic scummy? (Though I strongly disagree with my logic being false. My logic is close to the only element in this game that shows a sign of sanity.)

And if you don't want to be called opportunistic, here is some advice: don't BE opportunistic.

This is entirely different. I never thought of using meta as a reason to push anyone. I defended meta as a good way of getting a personal feeling of people, getting a first, personal impression. But you can not, can NEVER, expect meta to be enough of a reason for other people to follow suit. And this expectation defines AK's case against me. A combination of some mysterious meta hanging in the air, and the coasting off a townread stemming from their Gladiation shenanigans.

And what is AK's meta reason? Have you seen it? No. It has still yet to be expressed by AK, as to what that reason exactly is. All you guys got was some mysterious reference of "her partner" having noticed "something" about my play. Ony to later withdraw from that position again. And then later return to it. If this isn't opportunistic scum-hopping ased on a convenient non-argument, I don't know what is.
I can already guess what the meta-argument is, but I'll give them the honour of emberassing themselves.

I don't blame her for not voting herself. Hell, I was on BigTerp's wagon as well, for foolishly considering AK more of a conftown.
I blame her for considering BigTerp's VT-claim as an argument towards him being scum, which I find an impossible leap to make. That VT-claim made him more town, for reasons already explained, and AK's statement it didn't make him more town suunds more like someone intent to portray conviction rather than someone who genuinely reached a logical conclusion. In short: she was playing stupid. So she can say "oops" after it all happened more convincingly.

fair enough

"fair enough"?
That's it?
What do you mean by "fair enough"? Do you know see why my points are not "false logic"? Does that mean you no longer scumread me? What is this "fair enough"?

[Grimgroove]

The only argument I see is that he's been fabricating reads. This is all based on one stance on you, where he called one of your actions scummy, but the total read on you null.

I don't need to refute that argument, first of all because Desperado can do that for himself, and second of all because simply repeating it is already pointing out how weak it is. The weakness of the argument is of such proportions that it is self-evident.

[Grimgroove]

GG why aren't you all 'upset' that we called you scum early on?

Please tell me you are kidding. How much of the thread have

you

read?

I don't know whether or not I can read you, but in this case it doesn't matter, since apparently you just arrived in this game and my reads on AK have got very little to do with you. Why are you intent on discrediting my read on you before you are even caught up with the topic?

[Grimgroove]

The only argument I see is that he's been fabricating reads. This is all based on one stance on you, where he called one of your actions scummy, but the total read on you null.

I don't need to refute that argument, first of all because Desperado can do that for himself, and second of all because simply repeating it is already pointing out how weak it is. The weakness of the argument is of such proportions that it is self-evident.

So you have no opinion on the fact that he is fabricating reads?
Do you agree or disagree with my position? If so, why aren't you voting him? If not, why do you disagree?
Why do you also ignore the fact that Desperado chooses

not

to refute my argument, in favor of OMGUS?

I stand by the fact that my argument isn't weak, and that you have no argument in favor of your position.

I disagree with your position. This is why I'm not voting him. I disagree because what you call the fabrication of a read, which is based on only one example (the read on you), I call the objective weighing in of several factors, some of which scummy ones, that result in a nullread on you.

About Desperado not refuting your argument, well, maybe he didn't in a counterargument way (how could he?), but he did show opinions that to me never seemed the result of any fabrication.

You know what I consider fabrication? That L-1-announcement argument you made earlier.

[Grimgroove]

plz answer my question

522 and 525 are dreadful.

But let me get to yesterday's business first.

I've got a theory on Majiffy and his actions of today and long story short of it: I don't think he's scum. I'm actually failry certain he's town. But I don't want to divulge anything more for now.

the hell? his two posts up there are dreadful, but apparently he's town? I don't understand your thought here.

Post 546, last paragraph.

Majiffy's at L-1.
Everybody else seems to have vanished from the earth.

AK: Why did you ignore my posts directed to you? Simply bussing your partner won't get you out of my field of attention, just so you know.

[Grimgroove]

@Pieguyn: and aside from 546, also 553, last paragraph.

[Grimgroove]

While we wait, what are your reads on AK and pieguyn?

[Grimgroove]

@Amethyst Kitty: 496 and 562


@Majiffy: No flavor?
Role seems to reminiscent of the ascetic town that was Telo for me to remove my vote anyway. Both roles are basically the same apart from the non-killable aspect. Why would there be both in one game?

[Grimgroove]

In other news,

still

not liking the Majiffy wagon, although the whole point of him bringing up how Grim pointed out the wagon was L-1 doesn't make the question (whoever asked it) go away, because if TSO put the vote at L-1 and should have announced it, then AK should have done so too.

What do you mean, "still" not liking it?
I don't remember you giving any arguments as to why you didn't like it in the first place.
And looking at your ISO you never once expressed yourself positively about Majiffy. What are your reasons for disliking this wagon? If it's simply Amethyst Kitty's presence on it, don't let that pause you, that's the most obvious scum-bus I have ever seen in my life.

His claim sucks almost as bad as his scumhunting. A commuter? With an ascetic already confirmed to be in the game, I find that close to impossible to believe.

[Grimgroove]

cool prod dodge. bbl after pre-halloween event stuff

Given you have not shown an iota of interest in this game, I have to ask: Why haven't you replaced out?
I'm not asking you to do so (not my place), but I do wonder what your motivations are for lingering around in this topic if you're obviously not interested in playing along?

[Grimgroove]

how come you didn't point out that AK didn't declare L-1? it was such a big thing when it was Desp, but now when AK does it you didn't point it out?

I will tell you why: because it's scum bussing scum.

[Grimgroove]

Amethyst Kitty, please respond to my post directed to you yesterday. You only asked what they were, but when I clarified all you did was further ignore me.
As it stands, AK is my preferred lynch for the day.

Massclaiming should go in a fast and furious manner. It's important we get it done but we can't waste too much time with it.

[Grimgroove]

Given the "argumentation" I have to work with here, I'm assuming T S O has got the case of the paranoia at the worst possible time. T S O, look at what's in fron of you. Look at the case I made on Amethyst Kitty, of which her latest supsicions are only a further episode in them using that meta-argument whenever it suits them. Up til today they ignore largely what I've been saying.

The only way the have ever engaged me was with comments like this:

I also think you are probably scum. There's a huge chance I'm right. I been wrong in that last micro, but still. Something about you is just not right.

If this is the kind of argument that is going to lose us the game then shame on all of you, seriously.

I don't know what it is that makes you townread AK ever since pretty much the get-go, but what is abundantly clear here is that she's cashing in on your paranoia by once again calling in the meta-argument of a game long-gone where I played scum with Mala, beating Mara. Yes, Malakittens has been paranoid with me before, but this is not paranoia. This is them coming up with that non-argument once in a while whenever it's fitting with the state of the game, usually during dips or lack of alternatives.

Just look at the way they've been interacting with me. This was never a scumhunt from their part, always a Grimgroove-hunt. Let me get some exceprts from their ISO and see for yourself.


RE: Windblown's claim: Sounds silly enough to be true. Pieguyn's next I gather.

[Grimgroove]

and grim feels town. From what I know of his scum game, he is very capable of making himself look incredibly town and proactive. His questions are weird, though I don't get the sense that he's trying to mask his alignment this game which is good enough for me to vote windblown over him, who hasn't done anything and who's only content post is him pushing suspicion on someone who is (at that point IIRC) the leading wagon

This is the first time they drag in this shit about me looking town when I'm scum. What do I look like when I'm town? A daphodyl? In any case, here some signs of reasonable thought shine through their post, as they opt to go for more tangible arguments to vote someone. To see that now, in LyLo, they want to revert to some supposed basic instinct, is just plain scummy. You can get gut-reads but this is not a gutread. The thing in bold is the starting shot of painting off town-Grimgroove as scum because whenever he's scum he looks like town.

Also, it's important to note that all that scum-meta they have on me is based off of ONE (1!) game.
In the meanwhile MAlakittens (and I think Marangal as well) have played games with me as town. They also know my town-meta but NEVER refer to it.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Grimgroove

My partner

just pointed something out that reminiscent of a game where he has played a game as scum

and, Wind's post has gotten progressively townier. I don't think I'd mind keeping him around for a bit, if anything he is amusing

The Amethyst Kitty comes out of the bag. Note that NEVER during this game they have pointed out what that "something" was. Given they talked about it with eachother it can't be difficult to repeat what has been said among them?

I have my town that I had announced

And then there was desp right under that

Garmr and Jiffy were null, mala had jiffy as maybe scum but O saw enough town intent there to not fully agree with

And then telo as maybe scum but I am not confident in reading her and I have never read jerk correctly

And then there was groove and Terp.

Grooves reaction to me changing my read on home suddenly easy strange in a townis sorta way

and the one game I recall having with terp, she was pretty town early on. The fact that I don't have that yet this game is pretty disturbing, but looking at her reaction (her being a VT, while still wond ring if I still have some sorta power evvej after I said I didn't) makes me feel like I made the right choice

And no, I didn't know that the deadline would be extended.

Unfortunately, I am reduced to a phone for the duration of this phase so my content the rest of this day is limited.

Here they feel my indignant reaction to their change of reads sounds town. The way they give me that townpoint shows clear reluctance, but a realization that a simple meta-argument can't possibly convince anyone to lynch me moves them to finally go and look elsewhere.

whelp.

VOTE: groove

Just after Night 1. Not the slightest additional comment.

desperado
generic
garmr
pieguyn

windblown

majiffy
telo

tso
marquis

grimgroove

anything below Telo and Jiffy I'd be willing to lynch at this point

I'm well at the bottom of that list, but when you look through their ISO you'll see nothing reminiscent of a real push on me. Coasting with others, yes, but no push, no arguments.

and I would defintely lynch Jiffy over Desperado

though, Grooves wagon is much more sexier

Why though? Never answered. They later proceeded to just go ahead and vote MAjiffy after all, over an argument that I, their top-suspect, presented.

GG why aren't you all 'upset' that we called you scum early on? Especially with my paranoida of you. I would have thought you would have taken offense to it by now. Also you know you can't read me right? As town you read me as scum and well as scum you were my scum partner.

This was after I have showed my annoyance with their opportunistic way of using that meta-argument repeatedly. They don't even read what I say. Is that what town does with their scum-suspects? Ignore what they say? No, it's what scum does with people they want to get mislynched. There has never been true engagement.

AK: Why did you ignore my posts directed to you? Simply bussing your partner won't get you out of my field of attention, just so you know.

what post?

Ah, ENGAGEMENT!! A simple ISO would answer their question, yet they choose to buy time.

Grim?

I didn't come online between those posts, yet AK portrays a sense of urgency when finding out which posts I'm talking about. If it was so urgent, why not look for them themselves? Regardless of that, I tell them which posts, only to have them ignored yet again.

This slot is scum T S O, and it's using your paranoia to cash in on their meta-argument, their only argument, namely that I look like town when I'm scum.

Fuck that. Seriously. When I was scum in the game Malakittens presented to me their were arguments that could have been made against me, but they just never were made and I sailed to victory unattacked. I never came under pressure. That is not a game that gives you a baseline of how I play as scum.

If there are such arguments in this game, present them to me and let me dispell your worries T S O. These worries might cost us this game.

[Grimgroove]

How does you being Vin Diesel make your reads correct? How does you being Vin Diesel make you put down a vote during LyLo based on no arguments? There's no way you can be as confident as town, given the arguments you presented. Or rather, argument... Because you still haven't given any. You can't even show what's so similar about my scumgame to this one. Or what's so different between my towngames and this one.

I don't buy it, I simply don't. Vin can be a safeclaim as well as any other.

Why claim out of turn?

[Grimgroove]

This is AK pulling an all-or-nothing. Victory is close for scum and she's pushing through a lynch based on meta, paranoia and a ridiculously strong safeclaim.

I'm Leon, Town-aligned watcher. I went to Majiffy night 1, Garmr night 2 and T S O night 3, never with a result.

[Grimgroove]

and as town, you would prolly be freaking the fuck out at being potentially mislynched at lylo

or maybe even vote me back, but you know that isn't going to work

You still haven't got town convinced so I don't need to freak out. All I see is what I already expected to see: you going for my lynch. You've been wanting to go for it ever since Day 2.

What do you know about me freaking out as town? You've never seen me as town in this kind of situation. The only person who did and still in this game is pieguyn. I don't freak out. I give arguments, usually a shitload of them, and then can only hope people with good intentions will do the right thing.

You are not people of good intentions and I'm not going to get worked up over your unfounded accusations.

My vote on you is only a procedural matter, I didn't want to take any chances but given that, in the off-chance you are town, you've already given scum the opportunity to quickhammer town, this point is moot anyway.

My case on you stands, yours on my is still non-existant.

VOTE: Amethyst Kitty

[Grimgroove]

wait, you're a watcher, and you belive the cop claim?

Have you even read that cop-claim?

[Grimgroove]

you and your walls

Is that the beginning of an actually argument I see? What? Bring it, you scumfucks!

[Grimgroove]

ok

now I can leave without worry about there being a quick-hammer causing our loss

Heh.

[Grimgroove]

what about 496 do I respond to? It's isn't directed to me,

SHE DOESN'T EVEN READ WHAT I SAY!!!


How is 496 not directed to Amethyst Kitty?

[Grimgroove]

and the other question has been answered by mala

It hasn't. She asked me why I didn't respond to your sudden read-change on me which is a blatant misrep. She never responded to why she misrepped me like that.

[Grimgroove]

Consider the fact Amethyst Kitty is willing and confident to vote me over these non-arguments, above someone like Marquis who basically everyone agrees with is scum. This vote on me is not a town-vote and everyone should see it, regardless of that Vin Diesel claim. Her entire credibility hinges on only that and I insist you look through that shit.

[Grimgroove]

Great thanks to my scumbuddies for a wonderful game. And also to town. And to the mod.

D4 was too stressfull for me to even remotely enjoy it, but D3 I had a real blast.

It would have sucked to lose over a meta-argument that is being used against me regardless of my alignment and a Vin Diesel-claim, and I'm really glad we didn't. But gut is gut and I guess I'll just have to hope that next time I'm scum, MAlakittens won't be around to see it :p

[Grimgroove]

As town I would have called for Marquis' lynch on Day 2 and push it through

[Grimgroove]

Kanye, can I perma-prein for any games you run with short deadlines?

TIA

Seconded.

[Grimgroove]

Your one chance to make your paranoia pay

How did you peg me? I want to work it out.