Toriel's Patience (end)

[Bingle]

HI MY NAME IS NOT MAFIA AND I'M HERE TO REVIEW THE SHIT OUT OF THIS GAME!

[Bingle]

Aight, I read a few pages at the beginning when the game first started, but I haven't had a chance to catch up since then. Are there any major points of interest?

[Bingle]

I'm not traditionally good at reading Dunn, but I'll give it a go.

[Bingle]

Aight, I read a few pages at the beginning when the game first started, but I haven't had a chance to catch up since then. Are there any major points of interest?

What were your thoughts on those first pages?

It was more reading for setup than for alignments, but I do remember thinking it odd that so many people didn't seem to understand the conceit of the setup. I'd have to look back to see who those people were. I don't think faking setup confusion is particularly likely here, but the setup is pretty straightforward.

We have a day where we should lim the most contentious slot, not the scummiest or the towniest. Then, we aim to hit the same alignment.

The alignment of our first lim is almost irrelevant, so long as we can manage to match it. Ideally, Dunn is also that alignment.

[Bingle]

I also remember thinking Brown Eyes was a funny user name because of the adage "You're so full of shit that your eyes are brown."

This is not particularly useful information mafia wise, but if Brown Eyes is watching from wherever replacements go (The local dump?) I hope that constipation is not a problem.

[Bingle]

or we could just lim scum 2 days in a row

Can we?

[Bingle]

I uh... just realized that my interest in the bad mech spec on the first few pages was a result of me thinking this was a different iteration of the game than what it is.

Smug judgment retracted.

[Bingle]

or we could just lim scum 2 days in a row

Can we?

This still stands as a question, but we are 100% shooting to lim scum in this version.

[Bingle]

Alisae, if I ISO you am I going to townbin you?

[Bingle]

ngl, I kinda want to vote Keyleth, but I think that might just be a tone thing.

[Bingle]

I think if Alisae's afk is probably broadly unrelated to alignment either way.

Was looking at implo's ISO and this kept popping up. Ali is actually significantly less likely to be AFK with a team e enjoys playing with. And I think there are a lot of people that Ali would want to scum it up with in this crew.

[Bingle]

I'm not a fan of

Bingle's

entrance but I don't think pushing there is productive, I'll give them more time.

Dead to me.


Everyone, I would like it entered into the official record that

Taly

is a bully and is bullying me on the internet and I can't believe our friendship arc ends with this callous betrayal of all we hold dear.

[Bingle]

I think you forgot to replace Brown Eyes with Bingle here Isis!

Nah, it's part of my role. If I replace out my vote remains there for the rest of the game and the new player gets a new vote.

[Bingle]

So like, 20 posts into the Dann iso and I have a tinfoil that Dunn and Dann might be S/S. Just something about the way Dann is avoiding the topic of sorting Dunn makes me feel like they're paired.

Also:

I think this is a good time to ask ourselves if Dannflor is a deepwolf

and suddenly it is 2019 again

DANNFLOR! WHY HAVE YOU BETRAYED ME?

[Bingle]

i think it started with the "mandante vs shirou" short text war and from then on i think my posts are significantly "better" from a third party view

But how are they from a town view?

[Bingle]

912 looks like town Dann. At that point in the game that's probably enough for me to townbin for D1, but I will presevere.


923 and 929 also seem kinda partner-y. Note to self, read Dunnflor joint iso after Ali Iso to check into this.


Overall, I kind of like Dann for town here. All of his pushback seems completely reasonable and I find myself nodding along while reading his posts even I don't have context to go along with what he's actually saying. I will say that I particularly like that he's poking at things off to the side while making his bigger posts on the same few topics, which makes me think he's reading for content and not to know where he needs to position himself.

Is there a section of posts/pages that can give context to why you think he is the scumz, Ali?

[Bingle]

Hello everyone I’m back, what did I miss barring the obvious new player list

You got replaced, sorry.

[Bingle]

Does anyone have a meta read on

Bingle

? Their ISO gives me the impression of stalling. I did like their question to

Shirou

though.

50% Site downtime at inconvenient times 50% this is the last day of a travel week. My flight home lands around midnight and I'm expecting to be up later than that though, so feel free to poke me if I don't do the things tomorrow.

Also, what did I ask Shirou? Cause the only thing I can remember asking off the top of my head is a cheeky comment about the nature of 3p in mafia compared to the more common usage of uninvolved person.

[Bingle]

In the back of my mind there's a good chance I've townbinned scum but I think entertaining that further is counterintuitive, especially without flips on my PoE

Actually,

Bingle

, I gave reads recently. What townbins do you think I could be misled on?

I think you’re wrong on not townbinning Bingle. That guy is great. I’ve been pretty low in amount of context and through reading, but I generally agree with you on Dan. All of the things I’ve seen people say about Ali being scum are things that actually make me think alitown, but Ali said I’m gonna sus after the iso so we’ll kill that bridge when we cross the troll.

I’m a little :eyebrows: on the townbin of implo, cause I don’t think I’ve ever townbinned implo. Same with Dunn. Haven’t read enough of either to put a finger on that, but I expect those will be after ali and the combined dunnflor. I don’t really know how I feel about you not giving me assignments on the way in, but that’s also kind of what you just did unprovoked which is a good sign.

I’m also trying to decide whether to fake a scumread on shirou to make him evolve or if I should just respect the desire for a laid back game.

[Bingle]

i think it started with the "mandante vs shirou" short text war and from then on i think my posts are significantly "better" from a third party view

But how are they from a town view?

I interpreted this as a partial pick at

Shirou

because they seemed concerned with the optics.

Nah, just wordplay. Iirc, shirou is always an optics centric player. It’d be like voting me for setup spec or flavor for gambiting.

[Bingle]

I'd say Alisae probably flips scum more often than I do

Speaking of wordplay….

Don’t sell yourself short. I think you play a lot more games nowadays.

[Bingle]

I think if Alisae's afk is probably broadly unrelated to alignment either way.

Was looking at implo's ISO and this kept popping up. Ali is actually significantly less likely to be AFK with a team e enjoys playing with. And I think there are a lot of people that Ali would want to scum it up with in this crew.

@Taly, do you think this an accurate statement about Ali/why people are scumreading em? If so, who do you think is a reasonable scumteam with low effort ali?

[Bingle]

aaaaare they
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=52&t=90403&user_select%5B%5D=33613
they kind of got immediately bodied on this rep in

Am I supposed to be able to get something out of this? Like, seriously an 11 post ISO doesn't seem like even adjacent to being able to use as a meta argument. :/

[Bingle]

Unproductive they’ll either start playing or get replaced, they are so inactive I don’t think voting them will change anything and might even scare them off the thread ngl.

Does this stance still stand? Given that the response to this seems to have been "Push Alisae" do you think that wagon is likely scum driven? If so, who is the scum doing the drivening?

I’ve seen the 1v1 my stance on it seems obvious, i have pretty little to add that hasn’t already been said.

It’s mostly just the way they handled Ari felt evasive then it happened again when I called there read on me bad. I feel like for a player who really likes to talk and explain thoughts they tend to just avoid discussion points at times.

Mechanically do we need to flip a slot like Alisae or is it fine leaving em around relative to a normal game btw.

If we go the Spares route we could reasonably leave a BoP player alive to make them do the choosing with the understanding they will never be spared, if that answers the question.

bb has a very town ISO, btw.

[Bingle]

also I was trying to remember just what games it was that made implo scared of me which had me re-reading my older games and omg i am cringing so hard jesus christ

Did GIF claim something again?

[Bingle]

But beeboy isn't in game anymore?
P-edit: @Ali

Lol, beeboy didn't actually get replaced.

[Bingle]

I’m not a huge fan of the last couple of implo posts. They’re all “right” in the sense that if I was reading them in MD I feel like I’d be nodding along but like, in the context of the game they just feel like he’s doing something to be doing something. Taly, can you point to where you slotted implo as town?

[Bingle]

To clarify, not your argument that he is town, but rather the post/posts that gave you that feeling.

[Bingle]

There is no mystery in this game that can't be worked through with more discussion.

Mr. Toucan, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a bowl of Froot Loops?

[Bingle]

Not really tmi-ing, but more just a lack of anything that really makes me sense that he’s looking to push any of his suspects. I agree with you that he’s not really looking to force people to take hard stances, but I’m definitely not convinced that that’s an anti scum desire rn. Also haven’t gotten to the Meuh iso yet.

[Bingle]

So unrelated to the game, but fun fact in the vein of rereading old games:

I was the IC for one of beeboy's newbie games.

[Bingle]

I can grok a Meuh scum argument, and don’t disagree with implo/Meuh not being paired, but I don’t think that translates to me for “Trust implo implicitly”.

Honestly it kind of feels like Taly might be setting up to pivot onto implo if Meuh flips town.

Meuh herself seems hyper defensive whenever her pushes get criticized which is nagl. I need to think about this a bit more.

[Bingle]

I’m not a huge fan of the last couple of implo posts. They’re all “right” in the sense that if I was reading them in MD I feel like I’d be nodding along but like, in the context of the game they just feel like he’s doing something to be doing something. Taly, can you point to where you slotted implo as town?

@Taly, this is my thoughts wrt implo, I haven't looked hard into you yet to see if the townbinning is town motivated or not but I definitely don't see anything he's done as super towny myself. Your response that his last few posts gave townvibes did not instill supreme faith in implo, though, if that's what you're after.

[Bingle]

I have no clue how this entered your mind from "not SvS" I'm not just going to campaign to eliminate through that as the PoE

Because this whole thing started with me asking you what felt town about implo and you responding with "The posts you specifically said were iffy gave me townvibes and also he's not S/S with Meuh."

[Bingle]

I don't really have a prettier worded response on my implo read. I just consistently don't read their posts and take issue with it. That might be a lack of critical thinking on my part but I think they're thinking a few steps deeper than I believe scum would.

That's fair, and I do still need to look at you to decide if I think you think the things you say you think, if that makes any sense.

[Bingle]

I think this is sort of foreign to how scum would be viewing this game. I feel like if Taly is scum then he doesn't need to worry about setting up a pivot because lord knows the gamestate is going to give twelve more opportunities to pivot before the lim is locked in. I think Taly's very reluctant insistence that I'm town is a good look, because it's exactly the kind of trajectory that I think scum would be afraid to make for fear of seeming noncommittal and like they're looking to pivot.

Is this the gamestate? It kind of feels like everyone is just waiting on a Ali/Meuh flip to happen right now to me, not like there's this massive fluid shift in votes around the corner. Admittedly, I've been limited to ISOs and real time engagement since my rep in, but has this game really been that much of a wagons appearing and disappearing jumble as you make it sound?

[Bingle]

^that's at implo, but I'd kind of like everyone's thoughts on the game state. If I'm seeing a vastly different game state than what's actually happening that could mean something *weird* is going on.

[Bingle]

That's fair, and actually makes me feel better about Taly's townbinning of you. Do you think your townread is a deserved one, implo?

[Bingle]

Has anyone expressed serious suspicion of Dunn, btw? I have a tinfoil regarding that.

[Bingle]

Has anyone expressed serious suspicion of Dunn, btw? I have a tinfoil regarding that.

Basically the tinfoil here is that after implo posted the EV analysis it was a mostly foregone conclusion that we'd be playing mercy, so scum had no incentive to be wrong on Dunn. Therefore, if Dunn is town, anyone who expressed serious suspicion of Dunn is probably also town. If Dunn is scum, it's actually pretty damn scummy to suspect him, because scum knows he's going to flip so they'd see it as free towncred when that happens.

[Bingle]

Outrageous? Nothing really. If anything, I feel like there is a distinct lack of spicy takes. I’m not sure if that’s because scum are super okay with what’s going on or if they’re kind of just being shut out, but I’d guess the former because it doesn’t look like Meuh/Ali is a pair and I know I’m not scum.

[Bingle]

if you think scum is okay with the gamestate, what mutually agreed upon townreads do you think are wrong?

That’s the problem, innit?

I don’t really see anyone as super scummy. I do think I’ve come up with a way to vastly improve our EV that may have been missed in the design of the setup though.

VOTE: No elimination

[Bingle]

I doubt anyone thinks boxed mac and cheese is better, it's mostly a convenience thing

It’s not better, it’s different. It’s like comparing Taco Bell nachos to real nachos. Real nachos are better, but sometimes you just crave the literal garbage only Taco Bell provides.

[Bingle]

VOTE: Shirou

Why?

[Bingle]

Arguably the people we choose to eliminate today wouldn't have been in contention for being spared.

It’s more that we’ve pretty much reached a foregone conclusion that we’re sparing you and the information from your flip would let me have at least some solid ground from which to start trying to piece this together.

The elims themselves are largely irrelevant to our wincon if we’re definitely going spares.

Not that that matters.

[Bingle]

This was already mentioned, makes sense Bingle wouldn't know but how did Taly not know?

Kinda strikes me as weird that you’re giving me this pass when I’m listed as the setup reviewer. Granted, I reviewed the setup like 2 years ago, but still.

[Bingle]

I'm not really sure who I should be voting here, and I'm too exhausted to figure it out tonight. If I can't figure out what I want by tomorrow, I'll throw my vote behind Taly and damn the consequences.

[Bingle]

Wait

mandate

=

kittybells

changes everything I know about that slot tbh

In a good way or a bad way?

By which I mean does that make it more or less important for me to try to read the slot AND how does it affect your read and why?

[Bingle]

bingle

probably isnt try to pocket me

I can try if you want me to. Join me pirate crew, Taly, and I promise you all the crackers your tiny little bird heart could ever desire.

[Bingle]

Also I read that as Dunn/ali for a minute and got really confused on your progression. And also we should probably lim one of Dunn/Dann for having similar username derivatives and confusing me intentionally in this, the year of our lord 2233.

[Bingle]

Ali was right when e said the iso wouldn’t make me townread em. Like, this is exactly what I would expect scum Ali to be doing post election if e had a really solid scumteam. Playing interference, being the person who is the foil to a strong anchor. And that honestly makes sense with a lot of the players in this game. But here’s the rub: if Ali has a power wolf team behind em, why are they so limbaity? I’m inclined to town em simply because there’s no one riding out on a white horse to save the day, I say, as I ride out on a white horse to save the day.

Dann in the other hand feels town in all of his posting, but I’m kinda starting to doubt that read, actually. Like… every part of my soul is telling me Dann is just town here, but when I try to examine that I come up with shitlogs for reasoning. Everything he’s doing could well come from betrayal wolf. Wait, I’ve got something for this.

[Bingle]

what was confusing with it?

You talking about Dunn all of a sudden. Which didn’t actually happen, but fuckit it’s 6AM here.

[Bingle]

Did I do it right? Did I do the meme?

VOTE: Dannflor

[Bingle]

I’m gonna just…

[Bingle]

what's a "shitlog" reason if your soul is saying its town?

That’s kind of the point. I can’t explain why Dann comes across as town. There’s no post I can point to and go “ayup, that’s a towny thought process”. There’s no progression that can’t be scum spinning shit to look good. There’s not even a sense that Dann has a natural or genuine tone. There’s just… I don’t want to think he’s scum. Maybe it’s because I like playing with Dann and reading his posts. Maybe it’s just that I think he’s good and I want to be able to rely on him. But I can’t help but thinking if Dann really is town here I should have more to my read of him than just wanting him to be town, yknow? And if you do can you explain it to me?

[Bingle]

like maybe what i’m trying to say is that you’re over explaining and i think it makes more sense to shear away a lot of it to focus more on alignments. maybe i don’t like this being boiled down into, fmpov, an info flip when i disagree we get much of what you’re saying we do from said flip. idk it just doesn’t feel real to me.

and i think it’s more bizarre to me because you’ve proven this game you can do a close reading of someone’s posts and make a coherent case but the last posts in your iso are way more… theoretical.

Ayup, that’s a towny thought process.

[Bingle]

WHO'S GOING TO GIVE ME HEADPATS NOW

[Bingle]

and meuh if you are town then yeah sorry this probably feels like an especially shitty game to get limmed in :X

WDYM?

[Bingle]

Aorn, I intend to hammer Meuh. I don’t feel good about it, but Ali’s post that it’s a wolf wagon doesn’t really resonate and I don’t think we have time to go somewhere else. The freedom wagon is like literally all of the people I find most sus at the moment, so bleh, and I’m not really feeling it.

Why has RN been off the table? Is there something ubertown from ari I’m missing?

[Bingle]

and meuh if you are town then yeah sorry this probably feels like an especially shitty game to get limmed in :X

WDYM?

idk it probably feels pretty bad for the town to vacillate between calling everyone in the game town for two weeks then decide to lim you if you're town.

Eh. I’d take it the other way, tbh. It doesn’t feel like scum is a buncha chumps this game and I’m always happier with being a mislim if it’s because the game was just really hard than if it’s a bunch of people with pants in head shit tunnels on me.

Im not sure I can grok “being limmed because everyone is really towny” would ever seem worse than “being limmed because I played poorly” and it’s kinda making me think you have a guilty conscience here.

[Bingle]

I feel really bad about this, but I need to get some deadline stuff done at work.

V/LA for 48 hours.

[Bingle]

I'm back and reading up. You may begin rejoicing.

[Bingle]

town core is like implosion, taly, keyleth, ydrasse

This feels like a really gross towncore. Like... I'm never comfortable hard townreading Ydrasse after too many games of watching Mena do that and lose hard. Taly is probably just the leader here and the more I think about the gamestate being weird the more I think that's not really townreadworthy-ish. I'll admit I've been falling into the trap of letting Taly be my rock to kind of guide me, but I don't know that there's something he's done to deserve that. Implo is solidly null for me, and a hard townread there is just :/ And legitimately I can't remember shit for keyleth's alignment.

[Bingle]

Maybe this is a skill issue but Meuh's flip did not help me as much as I thought it would.

Because wasn't Meuh a nearly consensus vote? I guess I'm just a tad confused on how this seemed to change so much. Bleh, words are hard.

This seems like a really town thing to say, tbh. I don't know that it occurs to scum to fake thinking a flip will be more useful than it actually is.

[Bingle]

why dont you challenge me if you think my townreads are unearned?

I may well challenge you, but I'm still catching up. Patience, Mr. Toucan.

[Bingle]

I haven't actually calculated the EV of either option and I want to do that before I answer that question. I think nearly always the play is spare unless I'm quite sure Dunnstral is scum but since spare + kill removes two of the most townread players per phase as opposed to Lim+NK lopping one from top and one from bottom it might actually not be as good an option as it seems at race value.

I didn’t even really consider sparing takes town power away from town just by virtue of being right. I guess it’s negligible with enough townbeards and a mechanical plan *bingle*…probably.

The idea is that spare and nk both targeting the top of the list means that weak town players are much more of a liability in a spare route game. I don't subscribe to the logic but do understand it. Spare is by far the superior option mechanically.

[Bingle]

we went from trying to pocket me to trying to dethrone me very quickly,

bingle

, im intrigued

I literally haven't thought about the game in two days, you can probably blame sudden shifts on that.

[Bingle]

i either end this game with a bunch of cracked eggs on a clown mask that i wear

or a town win

Why not both?

[Bingle]

Yeah idk Alisae I’m on page 15 right now and every mandate post is like….man that’s a really town process. I just don’t see scum even considering “oh I have to skirt around this overarching concept because even mentioning it could potentially invalidate catching scum in a strategy with a potentially large flaw”

The potentially parts are particularly notable to me since I often find myself setting slots up with a scum expectation and form a better read on whether they meet or move away from that expectation but that’s on a grander scale.

RC is actually one of the handful of players I was saying could reasonably do this as scum.

This post pings hard.

Like, I feel like knowledge of the tinfoil of RC=mandate is probably a big highlight in the scumthread, and this just feels like setting up to doubt the mandate slot. I don't think these are both scum from this positioning.

[Bingle]

i don’t think you played hard enough if you don’t look back at your posts after the game is finished and cringe at least once

Never look back in sadness. Only full, unmitigated fury.


DANNFLOR WHY HAVE YOU BETRAYED ME!

[Bingle]

I think RC could’ve won this game in his sleep by not outing and probably would have had more fun doing so

Not really? Like, this game is super resistant to tentpole players. RC can't just dictate lims forever, because if he's town he just gets spared and then has no game control. Honestly RC signing up for this would be surprising to me.

[Bingle]

So we are sparing

Keyleth

immediately after me, don't even question it

[Bingle]

I was partially joking because I was flattered by

Keyleth]/b] but honestly, I think she is just town and I would be fine if she got spared

I was using the question emoji to be contrarian.

[Bingle]

Also

Bingle

Why not interested in me quite overtly saying you're a partner with

Freedom

?

You want to get back to me after they flip red and I'm campaigning for my own spare?

Nah, I'm kind of okay with you as first spare having thought about it more. Like, you being the UTR and no one fighting you implies townbeard more than deepwolf to me. Being completely unchallenged but still UTR seems like you're townreading scum.

I'm not particularly interested in a freedom flip because I don't know what we actually learn from that. I'd be much happier with a flip on a slot like me or implo, tbh, because there are a bunch of slots that are just around us and getting the info seems valuable.

[Bingle]

As far as actually flipping scum, I think this is our best bet rn. VOTE: RCE

[Bingle]

Yeah?

Like, people have nuanced and disagreeing takes on my slot I think, to an extent that's actually useful when we see me flip green. We (the survivors) can actually look at those reads and see if they're justified or bullshit compared to the freedom wagon which is honestly looking like "Taly thinks freedom scum and I townread Taly" for the most part, which is hard to differentiate between scum sheeping you and town sheeping you.

This lim isn't about hitting scum, it's about getting the game to a place where we can repeatedly hit town. I think my green flip does that better than a theoretical Freedom red flip.

[Bingle]

I don't think my being willing to be limmed to have a winnable game state should be a surprise to anyone who has played with me. It's... not new.

[Bingle]

I strongly disagree

If you're campaigning for your own elimination, which I'm heavily considering just a turbolim on you right now, you are NOT helping town by removing a green slot in the game

You increase town odds of winning spare by eliminating SCUM

Subject: TM 2023 | Super Mario Bros Mafia | Game Over!

There are worlds in which you either holster or one shot sman through a protect to indict someone who is not you. In those worlds, radrat, the player who holstered a protection on the claimed investigator who was then immediately killed dies. I don’t trust town to not fuck things up completely, so we go with the very simple plan of kill jingle, kill rat, kill peta. There is no room for interpretation or reevaluation once I’m gone and can’t respond anymore. Do you want to dispute that the plan works? Do you want to dispute the town status of any of my town core? Do you want to do literally anything other than cast shade at a plan you yourself profess faith in? No?

Okay. Then I’m going to continue advocating my plan in which I get limmed first and you have no input.

Proof of purchase, me, as town, being totally willing to self eliminate to remove WIFOM and give town a shot in a much higher stakes game than this one.

[Bingle]

i think the bingle thing about mena is strange because the game im recalling that i won as wolf i joined late and spent most of it investing my time into pocketing him and like letting him run with a poor assumption

Honestly, I more remember the frustration of people townreading you for what I thought were bad reasons and not being able to play against that than any particulars about the game. I think it was a FG game and I think I'd run into similar situations with you before, so :shrug:.

[Bingle]

what the fuck

Look at it this way:

Me and Freedom both have a ~0% chance of being spared, right? I think town gets more info from my flip than Freedom's flip. Which one of us sits in the game til the end doesn't really change that neither of us get spared, so we go with the higher info flip.

This isn't a game where we have to hit every mafia. This is a game where we have to hit a large number of town. The conceit of the game is very different for what we want to get out of a lim.

[Bingle]

oh was it a dance game

I think it was guns and roses and mena was the last vig or something like that.

[Bingle]

TOWN LOST THAT GAME

BINGLE

Town lost that game because I was 100% wrong on my HPE read and townbearding. Limming me or not limming me didn't change that. Arguably, removing me as the person hard defending the last scum improved town's chances.

[Bingle]

I'm not going to go looking for old games, but this isn't new behavior from me. iirc, there was a game where nsg and skitter were both hard tunneled on me and I rolled over and took the lim to let them reevaluate because they were obvtown at that point.

I'm also not going to fight my elimination, because I genuinely do believe it will help town win this game.

[Bingle]

bingle's alignment is annoying

Called it.

[Bingle]

I believe in you

alisae

Don't believe in alisae. E does eir best work out of spite.

[Bingle]

i don't know if it's because you're scum or because you are a replacement in a 130 page game but it kinda feels like you're just looking for an excuse to not really play the game or have to read anyone and if you're town that's really annoying and probably one of the main ways we can lose this game

Self meta, but my being able to understand a game isn't really a function of alignment. I was significantly busier than expected the last couple of weeks and haven't really had the time to mafia. OTOH, this player list is like... some of my favorite people on site and I really like Isis' game conceit and flavor and I don't really want to leave despite being absolute shit so far at contributing, which I'll admit is incredibly selfish and rude and I don't really blame anyone for being mad at me for the lack of engagement I've been able to put out. I do think it's pretty obvious that I have been trying to keep up as much as I can and I have put a considerable amount of effort into reading this game, but I can definitely understand people finding my slot underwhelming.

[Bingle]

alisae

im unhinged when left to my own devices, do you really want me to quickpush

mercy

unchecked?

I don't know why we shouldn't quickpush mercy, tbh. It's been a foregone conclusion since before I repped in and we only get more information when Dunn flips, not less. I could maybe understand waiting if Dunn was champing at the bit to build some giant content wall, but I'm pretty sure that's just never gonna be a Dunn Hallmark. The only thing waiting gets us here is more apathy.

HEAL:

[Bingle]

I have a tinfoil that kyouko is scum with a deep wolf and is counting on us sparing a deep wolf and then panicking into “oh shit spare was the wrong choice!”

Maybe Dunn?

I just don’t know how anyone can legitimately look at implos numbers post and say: yup, let’s fight. Especially with the argument that scumhunting is easier than townhunting here.

[Bingle]

kyouko is probably town she's pretty wild for a replace in she seems uninformed

How so?

[Bingle]

Mobile, so I can’t really do a huge game theory post, but there’s a fundamental misunderstanding here. Mafia doesn’t win traditional games by being most towny (or least scummy, but that’s a synonym).

Mafia wins traditional games by being middle of the pack. The most towny are nks and the most scummy are elims. Town here is susceptible to loss by spare if the most towny are scum, which is a different can of beans.

Additionally, mountainous tended to slightly overperform ev the last time it was run regularly, so a more reasonable expectation if we lim Dunntown is ~25%. Vote for town, otoh tends to overperform ev significantly, so we’re legitimately looking at near autowin if we spare town Dunn.

Honestly, I’m a little ashamed that I didn’t do the ev analysis and catch this when I reviewed the game, but it sounded like balanced numbers on the face of it and apparently I was being lazy. Probably should be 4 scum in hindsight.

Teal deer: mercy is the only viable option.

[Bingle]

I have a tinfoil that kyouko is scum with a deep wolf and is counting on us sparing a deep wolf and then panicking into “oh shit spare was the wrong choice!”

Maybe Dunn?

I just don’t know how anyone can legitimately look at implos numbers post and say: yup, let’s fight. Especially with the argument that scumhunting is easier than townhunting here.

i’m unsure why she would project these feelings prior to the spare going through, i feel ? it would be more of an impact to push people who voted spare after the fact.

i’m tepid about what we do at this point because this game is hard and my faith in myself to find actual town and not wolves going deep is uh. lol

I feel like it has more impact as an argument if floated first, and it’s not like kyouko is in any danger at all, regardless of people’s reads until after this phase.

The way I see it, scum kyouko has nothing to lose. If town pants on heads and votes fight scum is in a better position regardless of Dunn’s alignment. If town spares scum Dunn or Taly or something, kyouko has set up for massive towncred. And a deep paranoia about EVERY townread slot.

I will admit it doesn’t mean jack unless we spare a townread scum player though. It’s just a thing that popped up when I saw the argument.

[Bingle]

I'm back to considering

implo]/b] is only ever town for that calculation

Maybe?

It feels like the kind of thing I’d post as scum because not posting would just be a giant risk that I get outed lategame by literally anyone who knows me, and I think implo is a similarly mech heavy player.

[Bingle]

Bingle

humor me and self-meta on why this can't be your scumgame

It could be. Like, I could tell you how scum me plays this game and why this isn’t that, but everything about this game has just been me not really having the time and engagement to be able to do what I want to do, and scum me doesn’t magically have more free time than town me.

There could be an argument made that I’d be better able to fake information instead of in depth reading, but my RL has been such that I wouldn’t have had the time to fake engagement either.

I think that what I’ve posted has shown my motivation, but there has been precious little of it.

[Bingle]

I like the counterargument that the two mislims don't undeniably infer a deepwolf

Couldn't find it on yt so take this sketchy link instead https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/8545881e-f ... 4e383099c9

Kyouko tryna give us malware up in here. Lockscum

[Bingle]

Probably should be 4 scum in hindsight.

Hard disagree here lol. The EV is alright, it's just imbalanced between spare/fight, and the problem isn't that spare is too easy imo. I strongly disagree that it's near autowin if Dunn is town, if that's the case we

will

have to spare correctly in either 4:3 or 3:2 in order to win the game. Meaning in principle all townies will need to agree. The issue is just that fight is too hard, and maybe also that mercy is (i suspect) more fun sounding than fight in the eyes of the average mafia player bc fight makes it just another game.

Except that the premise here is that you’ve already had two miselims. Like… your ev post assumed the worst possible case heading into d3. And we’re in that case. And we might yet have a 60% EV in a game type where town consistently outperforms EV. That’s… not balanced.

[Bingle]

[float][/float]

Code: Select all

[Heal][/Heal] for Heal
[Hurt][/Hurt] for Hurt

Real homeys use the HURT WITH A BLADE: tags.

[Bingle]

It's Toriel's Patience, not Toriel's skip to the next phase

Announcing Toriel’s Skip to the Next Phase: An Isis Game. Coming to a theme queue near you June 2027.

[Bingle]

I think shirou might be tmi-ing Dunn scum here, tbh. This looks like a really shitty bit of theater to distance.

[Bingle]

Like… “town would never twilight troll” doesn’t seem like a real thought process that anyone could have in 2017, let alone 2023.

[Bingle]

taly please say its me pleaaaase say its me say im town say it so they kill me please

Ydrasse so town we should prolly spare her before Taly, tbh.


Am I doing it right?

[Bingle]

That would be beyond shitty theater

Do you think I'm shitty at theater, Bingle?

Or is the most likely answer just that Dunn's posts feel off and there's other players that feel similarly too?

Are you mad because I'm right and it was really shitty theater?

[Bingle]

Like, all of the last page makes me think I'm onto something here.

[Bingle]

dunnstral flip waiting room

Ali, make a meme of a bunch of people in a waiting room with our avatars over their faces. tyia.

[Bingle]

im not scum

bingle

>: you gave me crackers, we had a bond

Not the ydrasse joke, the shirou callout.

And scum can't kill you, that's animal cruelty.

[Bingle]

taly please say its me pleaaaase say its me say im town say it so they kill me please

Ydrasse so town we should prolly spare her before Taly, tbh.


Am I doing it right?

i think the bingle thing about mena is strange because the game im recalling that i won as wolf i joined late and spent most of it investing my time into pocketing him and like letting him run with a poor assumption

Honestly, I more remember the frustration of people townreading you for what I thought were bad reasons and not being able to play against that than any particulars about the game. I think it was a FG game and I think I'd run into similar situations with you before, so :shrug:.

I think it's pretty obvious that was a joke, btw.

[Bingle]

i didnt interpret that vibe from

rce

It is kinda odd that he took me seriously when I've admitted that I'm probably unreasonably paranoid about Ydrasse pocketing people literally a couple days ago, yeah. But also you did that too, so maybe I just kind of suck at making jokes?

[Bingle]

3am for me

Sleep is optional.

[Bingle]

we are in 8:3 sparegame with 1:0 ratio
to win we must spare 3 town before 2 mafia
Taly is town - assume we are in 6:3 sparegame with 2:0 ratio
we need to spare 2 town before 2 mafia but one of our town will be NKed before the first spare so to spare 2 town we need 4 locktowns

Players who will be alive after we spare Taly but before the NK:

1. Dannflor
   
2. RCEnigma
   Random Nurse
   Aristeia
   
   
3. Lazy Shirou
   
4. Bingle
   Brown Eyes
   
   
5. Sakura Hana
   
6. Keyleth
   
7. Ydrasse
   Mandate
   
   
8. Alisae
   
9. implosion
   
10. ssbm_kyouko
    beeboy

I don't think I can select 3 others off this list I'm fully confident in flipping town, let alone 4 others if I was not in the 4 to be spared. I don't think we have the numbers to lock in further spares going into D5 and 6. Taly do you want to towncase your sleeper spares before you are spared so we have it for later? You were saying nobody is talking about sparing your top 2.

At first I thought this list was an ordered spare list and I was really fucking confused.

[Bingle]

I feel like it goes without saying, but yeah... I no longer thing Shirou/Dunn is S/S. I want to hear Taly's case, but I'm open to that as a spare. Probably feel better about key overall though.

[Bingle]

Taly should never be spared he's a stupid bird

You can’t kill Taly 3 times in 1 game.

That actually happened in a game I modded, actually. Or at least one of Taly's alts.

[Bingle]

I have an under the radar spare pick i will probably case tomorrow that i think just wins the game

Is it Taly? I’ve been thinking Taly might be town for a while now.

[Bingle]

Wdym Taly, Isis already told us we can’t nk a scum player in the pt?

[Bingle]

I still think you're more likely town than kyouko after that townslip from several pages ago.

What townslip?

[Bingle]

What progression makes it look real? All I see is Ali saying e has 4 scumreads, no one caring, and then saying e thought it was a 4p team?

[Bingle]

Iirc, Sakura was taken out of the town pile because she’s been low effort, which tbh, kind of makes me trust her more. Like, I think Taly/shirou expressed that she hasn’t been doing much of anything, but does scum who sees Dunn->Taly coming really stop tryharding and just start coasting there?

[Bingle]

What progression makes it look real? All I see is Ali saying e has 4 scumreads, no one caring, and then saying e thought it was a 4p team?

I felt like the way Ali was playing until that point felt weird, but if e had a 4 player scum team in mind then it makes more sense.

Hmm. Maybe. I’ll need to look back for clues that Ali actually thought there was a 4 person team that aren’t potentially fake slips.

[Bingle]

also I was trying to remember just what games it was that made implo scared of me which had me re-reading my older games and omg i am cringing so hard jesus christ

I don't really see anything that makes me think Ali was solving for a 4 team (it's actually mostly a Danntunnel) but between the sheer lack of giveafuck and this I'm pretty sure e's town.

VOTE: Ali

[Bingle]

I didn't fast night because holiday, FWIW.

And by holiday I mean I hate Alisae.

[Bingle]

I feel like this game has been entirely undeserved success on my part, and we should keep that train going. I also feel like there are a bunch of people who would be scumclaiming by not being willing to vote me after their narratives the last few days, so this might out scum if it doesn't go through.

VOTE: Bingle

[Bingle]

Can’t kill us all.

Can't kill anyone, I'm the game winning spare.

[Bingle]

quote this post if anyone wants me for the rest of the game. if this is a town flip it feels won and i don’t feel a need to give my input anymore. it is a miserable experience.

thanks.

Hey, Ydrasse. Game is won, any chance you can come put your vote on me to end it? I'll apologize for having paranoia about you in general if you do.

[Bingle]

quote this post if anyone wants me for the rest of the game. if this is a town flip it feels won and i don’t feel a need to give my input anymore. it is a miserable experience.

thanks.

ydrasse if you're town here we actually do need you to play because if all the town can't decide on one of us to spare today then we're not sparing town

this day is actually a lot harder than yesterday

Or... This game is easy because I'm obviously a good spare here and all the townies will eventually gravitate to me. The only way I see this being a loss is if like RCE/Shirou are T/T and get super reluctant to trust that I don't put us on the precipice the way I did as scum and end up throwing the game by fighting each other.

[Bingle]

One, sure it's committal. What else is Bingle supposed to do yesterday if Bingle is scum? Try to start a different wagon?

Try to start a wagon on someone other than the person who flipped town and wasn't actually that tr-d ITT? I mean... yeah, probably. I think outside of RCE/Sakura everyone had Ali as a never spare before yesterday happened, and I certainly could have chosen literally anyone to push as a spare instead.

[Bingle]

(I've started to think that Ali is indeed scum though, to be clear)

I think Ali/RCE would be too obvious though, one may be pocketed by the other

Quoting for notifications, not content.

Would you vote me for a Shirou Snack?

[Bingle]

I suppose, but then i wonder wtf are the wolves doing then if it's not Dann trying to spare a partner.

Getting fek'd.

Follow the way of the bird and the furret and I promise to pray to you as the game ends.

[Bingle]

It's possible Bingle's just town and i dont need to do this, but i'm more certain of this being a game winning move, specially coz it's Dann who has been pushing for Bingle.

Um... Bingle's town and you don't need to do this. Sakura, if I'm scum why the fuck do I solidify the Alisae spare? Its the functional equivalent of having the lurker scum come in and bus the powerwolf for towncred two days before MYLO. I'm not that dumb.

[Bingle]

actually that doesn’t make sense there’s nothing to test in this gamestate

You can test whether hammering me wins the game. Spoiler: it does.

Seriously, though... Look at all of my actions this game. I've pretty clearly been okay with being backseat while we were on a path that was good for town, and when I actually step in and DO something it's put us at 1 yeet til victory.

Let Ydrasse's people go, Dann. You don't have to torture her with the rest of this game.

[Bingle]

I don't claim to know or have the answer to everything, the thing is tho, your result is an accident due to Dannflor, he's been behaving weird all game which has been pinging me, and if he's scum then you can't be town or he'd be pushing hard for a game losing move.

What's his other option? Not push me as town? He already shut that door. And notice, if he's scum he's doing a pretty great job of not voting me.

[Bingle]

hi. can we please for fucks sake not make this day take fifteen minutes total because i essentially know for a fact as town that we can't win without my vote or scum throwing but we can fuck up the day without my vote!

I'm not gonna stop trying to win this game in fifteen minutes, no. Sorry? I guess?

[Bingle]

Now care to explain why voting for Alisae makes you town? Because i doubt it's the equivalent of whatever you say.

Because... I had no need to do so? I functionally put Ali at E-1 when e wasn't really a consensus read by any means and I could have pushed literally anyone. You prompted me to look into Ali, sure, but off of what was a fairly weak argument that was likely to be ignored. I just happen to be someone who is good at reading Ali, and I don't think you would have known that before hand.

[Bingle]

I would also be absolutely furious if you died or sakura got spared tomorrow, and would march on Isis's house to demand retribution, fwiw.

RCE... and Alisae.

[Bingle]

Bossman walked back into the office, lunch break is over.

Please, let this game be won when I get back.

[Bingle]

I would also be absolutely furious if you died or sakura got spared tomorrow, and would march on Isis's house to demand retribution, fwiw.

RCE... and Alisae.

?
Isnt this implying a you spare means there's a tomorrow?

No it's implying that a tomorrow after a me spare is mod bastardry and I'd need to start singing "Kill the beast!" Or at least humming it very loudly.

[Bingle]

bingle is there anyone besides yourself that you'd be comfortable sparing

Not really, no.

I think I'm super obvious town, and it's gonna take a lot to shake that. I don't need to solve to win this, I just need to show what I think is obvious. Unless it becomes impossible for me to be spared, I'm probably just going to, yknow, try to win the game.

[Bingle]

Or do you have reads more generally right now? I myself am not finding an especially coherent worldview where both of us are town and so I'm certainly not going to vote you because you think you're obvtown right now.

I think if both of us are town then it's likely that either Ydrasse or Dannflor were in a shit position and gambited. I think it is less likely, but still vaguely possible, that RCE gambited. I think it is even less likely, but still possible, that Sakura gambited. I know, for a fact, that I'm town. I don't particularly think both of us are town. I think you pushing against Ali yesterday and you pushing against me today are a pretty good indicator of that, tbh.

But again, I don't really have to pick out the scumteam. I have to shine as town for the town players. Scum is the group in the hotseat where they have to prevent my spare from going through at all costs.

[Bingle]

I'm open to other options

How about... 2 Shirou snacks?

[Bingle]

In other news, I broke out the whiskey and my motivation to be proactive is running dry, but I'll take a look at Shirou's posts tomorrow if you haven't let me win by then.

[Bingle]

I see all of these reasons to scumread RCE and they would make sense, but the thing is: I’m town. If RCE is scum here then his motivation for pushing me has to be to push me badly and make my spare impossible, which I guess might be possible? But still thought that’s some ballsy ass play.

[Bingle]

fashion is always the real endgame to me!

You think fashion’s your friend? My friend, fashion is danger.

[Bingle]

If you are town and aren't chosen today, it won't

just

be because scum drove the spare away from you - it'll be because a townie either helped drive the spare away from you, or listened to scum who were doing so.

See… I like and hate this post in equal parts, tbh. It has a lot of potential as a post trying to get me to consider the game from a new angle and there isn’t a ton of scum motivation in implo trying to convince me to convince implo I’m town better, but there’s also this particular part which makes me hesitant on Sakura.

Like… this looks like implo is trying to angle to be forgiven for driving the spare away from me after I flip town tonight. And let’s face it, if we mis spare I almost certainly don’t live to see tomorrow.

[Bingle]

I already mentioned that I think scum probably on average avoid using something like a townslip to justify a vote, and that Sakura is basically bringing up this old point that people were using to townread Alisae that popular sentiment (iirc) had sort of soured on. I think that's something scum have little incentive to do. But beyond that, using the townslip is super committal - she's probably not gonna get away with saying she changed her mind about the townslip, and well, a townslip is a townslip if it's real.

I don’t get this argument at all. “Sakura using an argument people had already dismissed” seems like it would be more likely to be scum not really trying to get the spare than less, tbh. And of course SakuraScum could pivot if there wasn’t support for an alisae spare? Like, alisae is town and implo is town aren’t mutually exclusive stances she could have taken. If there was no traction on the alisae wagon she could definitely have moved. And I provided the traction on that wagon.

[Bingle]

Actually, if this is Sakura scum I think it just has to be implo/Shirou/Sakura, right?

Like... there's no way we don't win if they don't derail this off of me and that's what they've been trying to do all day?

Okay.

If Sakura scum, spare RCE. There's a small chance that Shirou is just wrong and implo was actually trying to get a Dann spare.

VOTE: Sakura

No guts, no glory.

[Bingle]

Why isn't furiously refreshing the thread telling me if I'm right or wrong?

[Bingle]

Bingle I think is a very underrated and good spare. Bingle was not on D1 or D2 wagon and he has been very much I think just doing his own thing guy seems townie.
RCE I think has a very villagery read on me. What makes his read villagery his his strength and how it stands out compared to his other reads.
I think Sakura has just been consistently villagery throughout teh game.
And I think Kyouko is villagery but nowhere are they as strong as the top 3.

Dannflor - I have him as a wolf but I kind of want to gut tr him and he did vote me
RCE - See above
Lazy Shirou - Never Spare
Bingle - See above
Sakura Hana - See above (tho ig Mandate could have set a wolf!Sakura to be spared now that I think about it but it doesn't change my overall read on her)
Ydrasse - Never Spare
implosion - eeeeeeh ig you can spare him but like if you look at my reads I'm starting to run out of people to tell you who a 3rd wolf is. he does just feel townie to me.
Kyouko - See above.

Ydrasse/Mandate is a wolf.
Start there.

I guess we see RCE's true colors now.
RCE your last few posts sound a lot like a scum that knows im a town winning spare and so cant vote me, if you're really following Alisae then you should know e townread me as well (sure with the caveat of maybe Mandate setting me up but e did also mention it doesnt change e's townread of me), moreover it feels like as scum, you're giving yourself an out after a Bingle scumflip to say you were just sheeping Alisae's reads and e turned out to be wrong on that one (And right now Bingle's really looking like a potential scumflip).
However... if you're scum then i don't need your vote, it just means that Yddra is town and Alisae was wrong and it's just a matter of time until Yddra and implosion spare me anyway. And if you're actually town then i WILL need your vote, so i beg you reconsider.

tl;dr: Alisae also townread me, it's not just a Dunn/Taly read, and the fact that you supposedly collected that info and are sheeping Alisae speaks volumes of your stubborness to vote for me.

Were you town?

[Bingle]

Toriel's Patience

An undertale-themed open game, by Isis

Were I snowed?

[Bingle]

Hello?

[Bingle]

Isis is cruelly withholding my fate on purpose and it's definitely not that she's busy on a Saturday.

[Bingle]

I feel like I got it wrong now and I'm sorry, although I didn't stray away from what was consensus in the past days

Don't say things like this, they make me feel like this was a bad choice. Fuck.

[Bingle]

There's no way I'm not the kill tonight if Sakura scum. Like, 100% bullet comes for me. If you're town then I think it just has to be implo/Dann?

and we still win this?

[Bingle]

Oh thank fuck.

ngl, I really don't deserve this win. I probably shouldn't have repped in with the amount of spare time I had, but the player list and the setup were just too tempting.

[Bingle]

I'm curious to see what went on in the scum PT now.
Because im clueless of what happened here.

Yeah. Like, fuck. What even happened this game?

[Bingle]

Bingle do you ever think there’s a world where scum me pushes for your spare as hard as i do yesterday

Yes. Especially since you didn't actually push for my spare yesterday. You said you wanted me spared and then did everything you could to not vote me.

Meanwhile, I was almost the spare and then Sakura derailed the spare off of me hard, which she would not have had to do if I were scum.

VOTE: Bingle

Obvious winning spare here.

[Bingle]

[Bingle]

Town

[Bingle]

Like you don’t know

[Bingle]

It’s cool. I probably shouldn’t have repped in. I didn’t really have the time for a long game replace.

[Bingle]

Well played scum.

[Bingle]

Votecount 1.8

() -

he/him

Dannflor

(1) - Alisae

he/him

Random Nurse

(1) - Bingle

He/him

Lazy Shirou

(0) -

He/him

Bingle

(0) -

Meuh

(2) - Sakura Hana, Ydrasse

She/her

Sakura Hana

(0) -

She/her

Freedom

(0) -

he/him, they/them

Keyleth

(1) - Random Nurse

She/her

Ydrasse

(0) -
She

Alisae

(5) - Dannflor, Taly, Lazy Shirou, implosion, Meuh

Taly

(0)

He/She

implosion

(1) - beeboy

he/him

beeboy

(2) - Dunnstral, Toriel

Not Voting

- Keyleth, Freedom (2)

(expired on 2023-11-17 12:17:50)

Ping

[Bingle]

I don’t believe shirou scum does that

[Bingle]

But why does shirou/Dann kill Danny’s biggest defender?

[Bingle]

Maybe I’m wrong and shirou threw, but I’m have to head to work. Either way, gg wp. Y’all should consider gammas normal and we can have another great plist

[Bingle]

Mountainous open but with a twist is my favourite game type tbh

The twist is that it's role madness.

[Bingle]

it was a trip, and i feel vindicated that my gut pings on

dann

were true

also

bingle

is the only person to successfully confuse me into townreading them as scum

Pocket Toucan!