STEVEN UNIVERSE 2 - GAME OVER


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Post Post #12250 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:08 pm

Post by Varsoon »

Shiro and Mastin2 have been prodded.
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Post Post #12251 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:42 am

Post by Shiro »

Indeed I have been.
To me:
shiro you are a charmer you were obvscum but for some reason people just wouldn't eliminate you ~Antihero
About me:
I stg this is how conversations with Lucifer go. ~Papa Zito
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Post Post #12252 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:00 am

Post by Randomnamechange »

In post 12249, Almost50 wrote:I'm starting to really get irritated by the stagnant status of this game.
i can get things sorted, i need to check if my 100% win plan works with varsoon. if it doesn't i will move on to planning around grapes' ability.
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Post Post #12253 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:03 am

Post by Almost50 »

@random:

Please do. ANY plan you come up with is better than what we're doing (or rather NOT doing) right now.

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Post Post #12254 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:14 am

Post by Reasonably Rational »

In post 12253, Almost50 wrote:@random:

Please do. ANY plan you come up with is better than what we're doing (or rather NOT doing) right now.
There's no reason to rush him. If you want to do something, you could evaluate our plan and see if you can improve it or find any flaw or loophole in it. I suspect Random is asking Varsoon about contingencies and how things play out if the scum team has an extra kill to use or something along those lines, and the only people who will benefit from rushing him before he's sure how to proceed is the scum team.

~Drixx
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Post Post #12255 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:06 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12235, Reasonably Rational wrote:I'm not sure why you were pretending it was difficult.
There's a question that I need to ask the mod which I've neglected to do. (A private one.)

But basically, MY plan boiled down, if it works, would be:
  • Unbubble grapes.
    1. grapes triggers his event and takes Shiro out of the game.
      • Lynch your slot.
      • If the game isn't over, randomidget bubbles Almost50.
      • This should win the game no matter what.
    2. grapes refuses to take Shiro out of the game for whatever reason.
      • We lynch grapes.
      • randomidget bubbles your slot.
      • If the game isn't over, in lylo, we've got a choice between Shiro and Almost50. This is the worst-case scenario.
  • if randomidget is too stubborn to realize that unbubbling grapes works, then:
    • We lynch your slot.
    • If the game isn't over, randomidget either bubbles, or doesn't bubble.
      1. randomidget bubbles, then random's bubble choice determines the winner of the game.
      2. randomidget doesn't bubble, and we use a lynch to determine the winner of the game.
Again, my plan is something of a work in progress. THIS is the reason I wanted MoI to give me feedback, to see if there were flaws in this or ways to improve it and whatnot.
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Post Post #12256 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:08 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12236, Randomnamechange wrote:like, if you could read my posts, that would be great. my plan was made by moi.
Yes...it was made by Magna...BEFORE the scum event triggered.
BEFORE we were given a new opportunity off of new information and a new stress count meter.

With you releasing Magna, stress has gone to tragic destiny for the first time in the game--the level required for grapes to trigger his event.

This is NOT something Magna could have anticipated unless he knew about the event, which I'm presuming he didn't.

The situation changed. The plans should have, too.
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Post Post #12257 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:17 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 12241, Randomnamechange wrote:damn this is hard. I'm seriously trying to figure out who is scum and i really don't know :/
As a helpful reminder: thanks to tragic destiny being in play, you're not getting a lynch unless all four players agree on the lynch of a fifth.

It takes four to lynch rather than the normal three--in short, everyone except the lynchee unless the lynchee willingly self-votes will be needed for a lynch.

I am telling you that unless grapes is released and refuses to do the event (in which case I'd lynch grapes), the only lynch I will make is Reasonably Rational.

Try to lynch Almost50 or Shiro, and you'll be forcing a no-lynch because it won't happen.

Now you can apparently still bubble. That's your power. You have control there, and have the free will to use it or not use it as you see fit. Though I still want you to go over with grapes whether my plan will work. (If grapes tells you it won't, then don't bother releasing him. grapes if town should have incentive here to not let us waste a mislynch on him. So it's only if grapes tells us it will 100% work that we so much as CONSIDER releasing him.)

If you choose to bubble someone else, your prerogative.
If you choose to release grapes, your choice. (Though I'd prefer that to be an informed choice.)
If you choose to do neither, still your call there. Those? Those are yours to decide.

The lynch for today, however? That's mine.

And I say: we can spend time on this day phase working on plans to get the closest to breaking the game as possible.
We can spend time implementing said plans.
We can also spend time debating on who the last scum is, doing research into, saaaaay, Almost50 vs. Shiro in the unlikely case it comes to being exactly that.

But ultimately, we lynch Reasonably Rational today, because as horribad as Almost50 vs. Shiro would be, Shiro vs. RR or Almost50 vs. RR would be TEN times worse a battle to be fought, so we're not going to even bother trying there.
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Post Post #12258 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:34 pm

Post by Reasonably Rational »

You realize we put forward a plan giving Random the option of whether to lynch us or bubble us right? It wouldn't actually be necessary to bubble us because the game would simply end, but still... it's as if you have your head stuck in some damp dark and very smelly place and haven't even bothered to pay attention at all.

~D
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Post Post #12259 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:54 pm

Post by Reasonably Rational »

You do realize, Mastin, that scum!grapes will never refuse to use that event? It almost certainly exists, because claiming an event he could never use always results in his lynch eventually...but..a lynch on grapes for "refusing" to use the event today won't happen. Think about it and you'll see why.

-Cerb
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Post Post #12260 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:08 pm

Post by Reasonably Rational »

In post 12258, Reasonably Rational wrote:You realize we put forward a plan giving Random the option of whether to lynch us or bubble us right? It wouldn't actually be necessary to bubble us because the game would simply end, but still... it's as if you have your head stuck in some damp dark and very smelly place and haven't even bothered to pay attention at all.

~D
In post 12259, Reasonably Rational wrote:You do realize, Mastin, that scum!grapes will never refuse to use that event? It almost certainly exists, because claiming an event he could never use always results in his lynch eventually...but..a lynch on grapes for "refusing" to use the event today won't happen. Think about it and you'll see why.

-Cerb
I just realized that Drixx and I apparently construct our sentences in very similar fashions. :p

-Cerb
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Post Post #12261 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:18 pm

Post by mastin2 »

If grapes is scum with Shiro, he can't use the event without it being game over for the scumteam--that would be a refusal.
If grapes is scum yet not with Shiro, him using it clears Shiro and he's left as solo-scum with Shiro alive and one of randomidget/myself also alive, meaning him using it is game over for the scumteam. That, ignoring the possibility of his scumbuddy being lynched before he returns to the game, which would endgame him.

So if grapes is scum, his best and only option is to eat the lynch and confirm himself as scum to the game.

If grapes is town, on the other hand: him using the event is a massive boon to us.
Him not using it causes us to mislynch him as per the risk of the above of him being scum.
Which is why we aren't going to unbubble him until we're absolutely SURE the plan works.
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Post Post #12262 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:21 pm

Post by Reasonably Rational »

I posted it DAYS ago. There's exactly
ONE
failure point to the plan: scum having extra kills. And unless I suddenly lost the ability to perform basic arithmetic, they need more than just one. This was over the moment I posted how to 100% guarantee that we win, and it would be gracious of you to evaluate it and make sure we didn't miss anything, and then acknowledge that the plan is sound and then kindly let us enjoy actually pulling it off for once. Unless you got Yume to lie for us, we're on the same fucking team after all.

~Drixx
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Post Post #12263 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:23 pm

Post by Reasonably Rational »

In post 12261, mastin2 wrote:If grapes is scum with Shiro, he can't use the event without it being game over for the scumteam--that would be a refusal.
If grapes is scum yet not with Shiro, him using it clears Shiro and he's left as solo-scum with Shiro alive and one of randomidget/myself also alive, meaning him using it is game over for the scumteam. That, ignoring the possibility of his scumbuddy being lynched before he returns to the game, which would endgame him.

So if grapes is scum, his best and only option is to eat the lynch and confirm himself as scum to the game.

If grapes is town, on the other hand: him using the event is a massive boon to us.
Him not using it causes us to mislynch him as per the risk of the above of him being scum.
Which is why we aren't going to unbubble him until we're absolutely SURE the plan works.
...

Let me spell this out to you, and him, because I'm sure he'll figure this out and you're being fucking blind.

If grapes is scum with ANYONE, HE'LL JUST USE IT AND REMOVE HIMSELF AND SOMEONE WHO ISN'T HIS TEAMMATE FROM THE GAME.

...

Like one of the conftown.


...

Forcing town to lynch within the same pool, without confirming ANY extra information to them.

Sure, he's confscum at that point, but guess what? He's confscum EITHER WAY, it's just that other way means town doesn't fucking get to know anything.

How the fuck can you possibly be so dense?

-Cerb
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Post Post #12264 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:29 pm

Post by Reasonably Rational »

*sigh*

If anyone needs me I'll be banging my head against a wall for awhile.

~D
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Post Post #12265 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:17 pm

Post by mastin2 »

If grapes removes conftown from the game and confirms himself as scum in the process: let him have done so. It not only ensures said conftown lives, but confscums him as a result.

Meanwhile, with grapes as confirmed scum before the end of the day, guess what?

We now have information we didn't have before: grapes is confirmed scum, there were two scum alive, and grapes joined the scumteam some time probably circa D3 or D4...meaning we have ALL of grapes's later interactions to better find the scum, and more importantly, others' interactions with grapes.

So given that, given grapes removing conftown and becoming confscum, we're left with three names who could be scum, and a conftown. We lynch one. Depending on circumstances, scum may not be able to function as desired--in short, grapes pulling the stunt is a massive gambit on his part, because it assumes that the town has no more tricks up their sleeve that could potentially fuck them over. For instance, a scum being killed, or a town player being protected from being killed, leading to a gamestate where scum don't endgame the town the following day and have been further narrowed down to a pool where they nearly guaranteed are going to lose.

Also, let me be perfectly clear here: you are getting lynched today.
Every time you try to bring up reason to not follow my plans, it's more reason to lynch you.
Plus, just saying: grapes is town anyway, fuck the haters who say otherwise.

There is NO scenario in which we're lynching Shiro or Almost50 today.
Now, RR. IF you are town. You plan around this. You lay out the best course of action possible, given a lynch on you today.
But it's never going to be Almost50 today. Or Shiro today.
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Post Post #12266 (ISO) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:28 am

Post by Reasonably Rational »

And this is the part where I refer you to Drixxs post, where he reminded you that our plans, AS THEY CURRENTLY EXIST, necessitate our death today or tonight.

Are you reading our posts, or are you just incapable of doing anything but deliberately misinterpreting us?

-Cerb
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Post Post #12267 (ISO) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:38 am

Post by Randomnamechange »

OK i believe i have a guaranteed win scenario.
lynch shiro.
if grapes/shiro we win
unbubble grapes
bubble a50/RR
game ends if i am right
lynch a50/RR if im wrong (the other is perma bubbled after my death)
gonna double check that works. only thing i need to check is the unbubbling grapes part
This stops it being down to anyone who is in the suspect pool, and also means that every possibility is accounted for..
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Post Post #12268 (ISO) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:43 am

Post by Randomnamechange »

we would go into the next day with two of me mastin and grapes alive, with the final player being confirmed scum.
@scum, please don't kill me. unless you are mastin or can win without my plan. i know my play has been shit, but the other Crystal Gems, especially MoI and Skybird deserve the win. If it's a matter of town win or town and crystal gems win then please be nice :)
all the actions necessary on my part resolve prior to the scum nightkill so me dying doesn't affect the plan in anyway.
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Post Post #12269 (ISO) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:38 am

Post by Reasonably Rational »

@Mastin - Okay; done trying to work with you. You can sit on the sideline and get a win for doing nothing but obstruct at every turn. As the saying goes: talk to the hand. (Every time you want to say something to us, just imagine our avatar only with a palm right up in your grill).

@Random
- Your plan looks solid. Since any 2-man scum team
MUST
contain either Grapes or Shiro, you have the order correct. If lynching Shiro doesn't end the game, it clears grapes so releasing him adds one to the conftown which precludes any scum win, unless they can do extra kills. If that is the world we're in, then A50 is the scum and bubbling him would win the game; however, as long as it won't cost the game, I would request that you bubble us. In any final day scenario if we are alive, Mastin will vote for only us, despite overwhelming reason to realize we're town. That can't be allowed to happen.

I realize that the obvious play for any scum who makes it out of today is to kill you and leave Mastin alive for just that reason; and therefore if you bubble us you may cost the Crystal Gems the win ... but I don't see any other way to absolutely ensure a town win. We simply can't be on the board if tomorrow is necessary to finish the game. If it's any consolation, unless I'm totally missing something there's not any way to avoid you dying before the game ends unless the game ends with Shiro lynch, so you might as well be a hero for Earth.

Either way... thank you for putting in the time. It has been one hell of a game and it seems right that it will come down to rhetoric, play and choices to decide which faction(s) win. That's as it should be (as much as I'd rather have won ages ago much more easily).

~Drixx
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Post Post #12270 (ISO) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:01 am

Post by Reasonably Rational »

I'm sorry but actually there is a flaw in the plan. A town!Shiro does
NOT
clear Grapes fully. It means that if there are two scum it would be Grapes plus one of [Us, A50]. A scum!Shiro flip clears Grapes and if the game continues obviously clears Grapes.

I need to talk to Cerb about how to bridge that uncertainty. I'm not entirely sure whether we can. I think we get two lynches for 3 candidates in that case.

I am pretty sure that's why we came to the conclusion that Grapes using his ability today was necessary in the first place. For example: if he takes A50 and exits the game and we lynch Shiro, the either the game ends or you bubble us and it's over in the morning. You can swap the lynch and bubble and it still works either way. Grapes' event is what allows us to have all possible scum out of the game all at once.

Think that through and respond ASAP. I've pinged Cerb to see if there's any way to fix the flaw in your plan or whether it is absolutely necessary to rely upon Grapes'e event being used today to ensure that we win.

~Drixx
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Post Post #12271 (ISO) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:06 am

Post by Reasonably Rational »

Sorry for Triple Post: There's also a way to ensure that we still win even if Grapes is scum and misbehaves when returned to the game. Cross that bridge if we get there tho. Mastin was on the right track but didn't quite follow it all the way through.

~D
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Post Post #12272 (ISO) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:05 pm

Post by Almost50 »

In post 12259, Reasonably Rational wrote:You do realize, Mastin, that scum!grapes will never refuse to use that event? It almost certainly exists, because claiming an event he could never use always results in his lynch eventually...but..a lynch on grapes for "refusing" to use the event today won't happen. Think about it and you'll see why.

-Cerb
If that's the case then the game will end today no matter what, which is GREAT. Regardless of who IS Scum in the trio of your slot, grapes and/or Shiro slots (and I'm excluding myself because I'm talking from my end here); two of them will be taken out of the game and one will be lynched, meaning the only 3 players still in the game are myself, Mastina and random = Town!Win.

Now I said "regardless of who is scum" to try and show you that grapes actually accepting to do what he is asked to do will work against his own win con (if he is scum) so he MUST refuse to do it whether he is a lone Scumster or does have a partner.

As scum, grapes may even try a gambit of "pretending to accept" the proposition to get released, but then he will never actually do it.

So, here's what I think:

1st possible scenario: grapes finds a way to claim his event cannot work (and I do have something to say about this, but I will hold it in case grapes does have a partner and want to use it as a gambit).

2nd possible scenario: grapes agrees to the plan, gets released and THEN refuses to go along with it.

3rd possible scenario: grapes accepts and DOES go along with the plan, in which case he is TOWN and I'm a poor scum hunter, and the game ends with your lynch. (Oh, and -also- in this case I'm expecting you to try and wiggle your way out of it somehow. Note that this is a hypothetical case in which you become confirmed Scum to me with both grapes and Shiro out and the game not ending still).

Now, here's my concern (regarding the time limit): we keep stalling until it is close to deadline and grapes gets released with the promise he will trigger his event but then he goes AFK for the few remaining hours of the Day, so we no lynch AND we have grapes on the loose tonight.

We only have less than 121 more hours in the Day, and if we are goin by this rate it won't be before the final 72 hours, or even the final 48 hours before grapes gets released, and it won't take him much to stall for that long and ESPECIALLY so when we would be SIX players in the game, meaning we need FIVE votes to lynch him (with the stress at +4), and it won't happen if he does have a scum partner alive.

Do you now see why trying to rush things a bit IS beneficial to Town as well?

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Post Post #12273 (ISO) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:13 pm

Post by Almost50 »

In post 12265, mastin2 wrote:We now have information we didn't have before: grapes is confirmed scum, there were two scum alive, and grapes joined the scumteam some time probably circa D3 or D4...meaning we have ALL of grapes's later interactions to better find the scum, and more importantly, others' interactions with grapes.
Again, this needs TIME, and we won't have time if we keep stalling like we are doing right now. Get your answer(s) from Varsoon. Get grapes' approval to trigger his event. Get the game going and give us some time to analyze said interactions if this happens.

We haven't done much in NINE REAL DAYS, and we are STILL NO SURE what will happen next and then how to react with FIVE REAL DAYS remaining. I do very much have a problem with that.

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Post Post #12274 (ISO) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:17 pm

Post by Almost50 »

In post 12267, Randomnamechange wrote:OK i believe i have a guaranteed win scenario.
lynch shiro.
if grapes/shiro we win
unbubble grapes
bubble a50/RR
game ends if i am right
lynch a50/RR if im wrong (the other is perma bubbled after my death)
gonna double check that works. only thing i need to check is the unbubbling grapes part
This stops it being down to anyone who is in the suspect pool, and also means that every possibility is accounted for..
What if it IS RR+grapes you bonehead?? (Sorry! This one is in good faith, not meant to be an insult). :P

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