On Improving In Mafia

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Alyssa The Lamb
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On Improving In Mafia

Post Post #0 (isolation #0) » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:11 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

It's not exactly the biggest secret that I think the metagame of this site has gone downhill over the past year or two. There have been topics on this sort of subject in some sense popping up for as long as I've been around on the site, but often they focus on specific skills and understanding different parts of the game. I'm going to go a slightly different route and attempt to detail how to improve at the game in general by tackling your mindset, hopefully regardless of your playstyle or skill level.

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Why am I qualified to speak about this?


I've been playing mafia on and off for nine years, to some varying level of seriousness. I was nobody special or worth any particular mention for most of that time, only gaining any recognition around 2016, and only widespread recognition in 2018 or 2019. Considering that it's very rare for somebody to just happen across a level of improvement to warrant this type of response, there's likely other factors at play here.

I also study various other things, albeit more as a hobby than as a potential professional career. Notably, a lot of my theories about mafia have most of their grounding in other games (such as Chess and Go), psychology (predominantly criminal psychology), and mathematics. I believe this is one of the other advantages I possess that allows me to view the game in a different way than a lot of other players. However, I'm nothing special, and this isn't a set amount of steps that will make you suddenly a legend at the game overnight. There are other valid opinions out there, and true improvement is rarely fast. These are simply the guidelines I followed to shift my mindset towards attempting to improve at the game.

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1. The fundamental basis of good reads is learning how to simplify.


This is the absolute key that I believe a lot of people on a fundamental level miss about the game. Mafia, at its core, is extremely complex. Every single post made adds an extra layer of analysis in wording, tone, emotion, content, etc. Throughout a game that goes for perhaps 200 pages, why would you want to search through all of it?

Naturally analysis to this extent doesn't commonly happen regardless, but this same concept keeps carrying through. Every single player that I see have a reputation for town play on this site does this to a pretty significant extent, whether consciously or subconsciously. This is because when you boil it down to the basics, do you need to go through somebody's entire ISO when you can find one piece that is strongly more likely to come from one alignment or the other?

As for another example, one common trend I see across quite a few players is taking everything in the game into account to their read. This is entirely unnecessary and is actually far more likely to contribute to a very noncommital read when you otherwise would have had a good idea of their alignment if you simply didn't. A lot of this is because the majority of what somebody says is very likely to be something that can be attributed to both alignments. If you take everything into account with this in mind, then the most prevalent thought in your mind while doing the analysis is that you aren't sure, which makes whatever few nuggets you're able to find look a lot less usable in context.

It's simply better to find one or two strong reasons for a read and avoid trying to fit their entire play to a singular mindset. It's simply impossible to do partially because it's extremely rare for that criteria to be met in the first place since gamestate shifts are very common in games, and partially because it's simply not possible to have so good a grasp on what the scumteam are doing that you can make that sort of call without already knowing the entire team.

As another example for why this strategy is superior, it's much harder for scum to play against as well. Complex cases with lots of moving parts trend towards being much easier to counter, since each singular point is like a joint in a suit of armor. The metal itself can be tough, but the joints are weak spots that cause a lot of damage if they are pierced.

A subpoint to this is that you don't need to read every single slot at the same time. If there are players in the game you historically have trouble reading, then don't try to right away. Get reads on the people you can, and see if you can find anything out from the way you're viewing the game onto other player's alignments. Indirect reading can especially be strong against players that rely a lot on direct engagements to fool people as mafia.

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2. Develop your playstyle.


Everybody is different. Everybody's brain is different. What necessarily works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another person, and it rarely works well when you attempt to brute force your way into a playstyle that does not work for you. That's not necessarily a failure on your part if you view another player as stronger than you, yet you can't fathom how they play the game. That's likely a sign that you simply look at the game through a different lens intuitively, and working on that specifically is how you're going to improve in the long run. Even if you do copy other players who do get results from their methods of playing the game, what exactly does it give you? You don't know exactly why it works, you haven't done the work to develop that style yourself iteratively over many games, and you won't know how to adapt it to suit whatever specific circumstances you will come across. It's simply better to work on your own understanding of the game if you want longer term results.

Ultimately, you want to have a pretty solid idea of what you are looking for, and roughly what gives you the most accurate reads. After that, just play the game. After each game finishes, go through your posts and try to recall your reasons for having specific reads, making specific plays, what have you. It's important to analyze yourself to develop your own style in this way, because this is how you grow as a player by figuring out when what you're doing does and doesn't work. The exact same approach doesn't work in every single game. Sometimes you will have to adapt to play around other people, sometimes it's your time to step up and lead. Recognizing different situations and deciding what your best approach is and how to read what's going on and the players within the game for that scenario is a strong part of building adaptability to many different gamestates and consistency. This is a big reason I disapprove of blind sheeping so heavily; it does nothing to build yourself up as a player, and the game itself is more fun when everybody is trying their hardest regardless.

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3. Learn how to play as scum. And town.


This should hopefully be obvious, but learning how to play both alignments is very important to becoming good at either of them. If you don't understand how the mafia are going to approach a situation, how can you possibly try to determine whether someone is approaching the game from a mafia mindset as town? Similarly, how can you expect to properly fool a town if you've never been properly fooled by the mafia?

It's a simple thing, but it's one thing that I also find to be a bit ridiculous about this site. Too many players don't enjoy playing one or the other alignment, which is... fine, but playing a well fought game as either alignment feels very different than the other, and you're missing part of that experience both by only trying as one alignment as well as potentially preventing other players from experiencing it as well.

Playing either alignment is about heart. You cannot properly improve at either alignment unless you can throw yourself out there as that alignment. Your play as either alignment is a balancing act, as changing aspects of one will require changes to the other. Attempting to find the balance between the two is a neverending source of potential improvement that makes the game never quite masterable, and that's what is so fascinating about it in the first place.

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4. Be willing to make mistakes.


Being wrong is entirely fine. The measure of you as a player doesn't equate to how often you are right or wrong on your reads or your approach to the game, but how much you're willing to take those risks and step up to the plate when you are needed to. It's much easier to see where you've went wrong when you make that step and fail, rather than if you succeed in a safe game.

You can't learn how to be charismatic in a game if you don't try.
You can't learn how to improve your reads if you don't risk them being wrong.

It's just as much a skill being able to determine whether your pushes are likely correct enough to be worth pushing, but you won't ever be able to develop that skill if you don't try it first. This extends to every part of the game, including reading specific players, reading subsets of players, or even using PRs.

It's not stupid to be bold. It's only stupid if you don't learn from the experience.

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5. Be willing to put the ego aside. During the game, the team comes first.


I made an experiment around mid-2019, namely I played several games as my newest account at that time, Blake Belladonna. I would get whatever reads I could and ram them into the ground until they succeeded. It was a very enlightening experience, since it taught me several lessons that I still hold to heart to this day. Ultimately, the approach would prove chaotic, polarizing, and ultimately a very high risk, medium reward plan.

That was a strategy I would use for quite a few situations, namely most times I would get a scumread I was reasonably confident in. It CAN work, of course, but it's best used carefully and in situations where it's absolutely necessary or where the drawbacks won't matter.

It is, however, necessary to explain where I'm coming from with regards to ego. In this specific context, I'm referring to how it's used, rather than its presence. Having the confidence to push your reads is not necessarily ego. It becomes ego when you're creating a negative environment or otherwise putting up a wall in front of other players to prevent their word from having any impact in the discussion before they've even started.

Mafia is, at its core, a team game. Playing solo is always going to be an impediment outside of very specific circumstances because if town is fragmented beyond belief, all the scumteam have to do is not let any momentum build on any of their members and town will eat itself alive. A town that functions as a unit is any scumteam's worst nightmare, so maintaining goodwill with the rest of the playerlist is an important part of the game, regardless of whether you are content to follow or are looking to lead.

When in doubt, remember this. Town doesn't win until the last scum is dead.

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I think that we have barely scratched the surface on what mafia can be as a game. It's a fantastic method of discovering how you think and process problems, it's great for training critical thinking skills and ingenuity (at least, if you allow it to), and it's complex enough that it's entirely possible that you can play it forever without it getting stale. I've been looking to study this game for the past two years, and it's very difficult to do so with the site in it's current state.

I hope that this helps at least a little bit in improving the overall skill level of the site. I'm excited for what has yet to be discovered and I want to see how far we can push mafia as a competitive pasttime and as a study into the human mind.

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This was haphazardly created in an afternoon and so might be rough around the edges. If I miss something (very likely) and somebody gets around to pointing it out/explaining it before I do, I will quote them here.

Thank you and good luck!
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Post Post #2 (isolation #1) » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:33 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

In post 1, popsofctown wrote:I think it is really really important for the health of the game that people care about winning on each alignment. If they don't naturally care about winning as one alignment I think they should manually compensate.
I think it's possible to prefer one alignment without having a significant difference in your motivation to win as one of them.

I've rarely felt like a game was unfun because my opponents or teammates were unskilled, I wonder what that means about me :shifty:

This was a good read and it is too wellwritten for me to tease Alyssa for being a tryhard like I planned
Yeah, I mostly mean instances where the preference results in a lack of trying. It's not an issue at all otherwise
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Post Post #17 (isolation #2) » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:59 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

I can go into this more later, but I think the town winrates going up can be pretty easily explained in a way that still correlates with skill level average still going down.

Titus is the closest to my own theory, but more in the general thought process more than the details.
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Post Post #18 (isolation #3) » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:02 am

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

In post 16, RadiantCowbells wrote:and the effect that you're seeing is moreso that people need to be better at scum than they needed to be in the past to have any chance whatsoever in lobbies where town isn't selfdestructing
This is also generally true, but I believe a good chunk of this is that the average game size is smaller and a lot of the medium sized games trend towards expecting a lot more from scum players than town players.
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Post Post #26 (isolation #4) » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:16 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

My problem with the winrate argument as well as the claim that towns are getting better has several parts:

1. The
peak
of townplay has gotten better, but this has also coincided with a shift of what is deemed to be 'acceptable' in games, for lack of better ways to put it. It means that generally, people are better at reading or playing around weaker players and/or players that don't put more than the barebones amount of work into the game. This directly helps reinforce that players that do not wish to put in that effort do not have to put in that effort, and so they do not improve at the game in ways that they would have before. Since they aren't willing to put in that effort, they are more likely to follow those that are. This increases the likelihood of those with the highest impact and 'skill' having control over the game, but it also doesn't reflect on a town's skill more than it does a single player's skill.

2. The general 'balance' of games has gotten increasingly complex over the past several years with factors such as combined roles, more whitelisted roles, more complex game types, etc. A lot of this has resulted in a meta shift for balance in that towns have a lot of wiggle room to work with and don't necessarily need to be that strong at the game in order to have a good result thanks to the amount of power they have, while I've seen a pretty drastic uptick of games (and quite a few of the normals I've played and seen fall into this) where the scumteam have increased pressure to make very good use of their roles and setup spec in order to have a decent chance of winning a game. It takes a lot more work than it used to in order to be adept at mechanics from the scum side than it was several years ago where I was seeing scumteams be able to manipulate games into a state where they would be able to either outright conftown themselves via mechanics or be easily advantaged as such.

3. The average amount of players per game has generally gone lower over time. This is pretty simple to explain; the playerbase has definitely gotten smaller over the years, and most of the games firing are either micro or mini (9-13p) games. I suspect the breakpoint is exactly where you go from 2 scum to 3 scum, but there is a point where if you go below the line, towns need to do nothing except for kill one scum and they are likely to get a game-winning advantage from that alone, while that's not necessarily the case when you go above that line. The generally higher % of games that go below that line means that there's that much more incentive to just directly scumhunt, which favors read% over everything else.

Those three factors in some way have directly contributed to the metagame shifting to what it is now; normal games have tried to balance this meta in a very clunky way, basically by brute forcing the scumteam to focus on mechanics or just get screwed over by not doing so. This makes for really bad feeling setups to play as scum (hi jazz mafia!) where you are basically railroaded into a path that you might not necessarily have any choice in taking to have a chance of even winning.

I'm frankly not surprised that scumplay has gotten worse over the past several years. Playing scum simply is not fun in those conditions, but the way towns function now require it to be that way. I want to fix this by encouraging people to work on improving their own townplay, which would have a cascade effect from fixing my first point into eventually fixing the second point.

I really just want games that feel more fun to play. Playing either alignment within the past year and a half or so has been a huge chore and I'd really like it if more players treated it the same way I did; as a tool to help look inside my own mind, to understand how I think, and to train critical thinking and ingenuity skills. The site is healthier for it.
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Post Post #27 (isolation #5) » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:19 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

I'd like to reiterate that I specifically mentioned the metagame going downhill.

This does not correlate to town winrates. I am saying that the
quality
of games is going downhill, not that town is losing more of them.
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Post Post #31 (isolation #6) » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:31 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

In post 28, OkaPoka wrote:what do you miss about the quality of past games vs today
In andom order,

1. It's very rare for me to roll scum in a game feeling like I both have a good amount of agency in how to approach a game and end the game feeling like I wasn't trapped by the setup in a way.

2. The standards for players considered to be strong at town are much higher now than they used to me.

3. There's much more tolerance for play that has a negative effect on the game; I have some blame for this since I generally tolerate this too (and do it myself some games, admittedly), but it is something that is much harder to fix in game than it used to be.
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Post Post #34 (isolation #7) » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:37 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

In post 30, RadiantCowbells wrote:
In post 26, Alyssa The Lamb wrote:1. The peak of townplay has gotten better, but this has also coincided with a shift of what is deemed to be 'acceptable' in games, for lack of better ways to put it. It means that generally, people are better at reading or playing around weaker players and/or players that don't put more than the barebones amount of work into the game. This directly helps reinforce that players that do not wish to put in that effort do not have to put in that effort, and so they do not improve at the game in ways that they would have before. Since they aren't willing to put in that effort, they are more likely to follow those that are. This increases the likelihood of those with the highest impact and 'skill' having control over the game, but it also doesn't reflect on a town's skill more than it does a single player's skill.
i... really feel like this is the exact opposite of true given my memories of 2016 where games were filled with people who would just shitpost until someone decided to play town leader and then followed their town leader
but i think you are possibly referring to a time before that and given comments ive heard about missing policy lynching you may be right!
my outlook on it though is that people who arent as super directed about things are the glue that keeps town together and that when people talk about *high caliber playerlists* being awful they usually mean when everyone really wants to do their thing as opposed to it being the quality of players

i definitely think that true lurkers are a real problem and they can fuck off but over time those true lurkers are more and more likely to be scum
I've seen more metas than most people on the site have, I'm pretty certain.

2006, 2008, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2019 all were years I played on the site and all have felt very different. It's entirely possible I'm mashing some of them together, but it's also true that the only two times I saw a major shift in a relatively small amount of time is when the hyper posting era started (I think 2014?)... and when I came back in 2019, where I felt less agency in a game as town in a way that wasn't the case in any year before then. That's the best way I can describe that feeling, at least. Something shifted around that time and I'm still trying to quantify what exactly that is.
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Post Post #35 (isolation #8) » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:37 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

In post 32, RadiantCowbells wrote:
In post 31, Alyssa The Lamb wrote:2. The standards for players considered to be strong at town are much higher now than they
used to be
.
is this poorly phrased or do you mean it as is
Probably autocorrect.
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Post Post #40 (isolation #9) » Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:33 am

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

In post 39, Porochaz wrote:Also as someone who has obviously played under different accounts I will assume I have played with you at some point. I won't ask who you are but I presume that's correct?
If you are talking to me here, I don't remember specifically playing with you before. If we have, it was around the 2011-2014 era; I remember very little about the games I played back around that time.
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Post Post #44 (isolation #10) » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:28 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

In post 43, northsidegal wrote:Finally, I thought I'd share some Normal game statistics which I thought would be interesting. Going by start date, there were 35 normal games across the year of 2018. Of these 35, I counted 19 Town victories, giving an overall town winrate of 54%. In 2019, there were 32, of which 17 were Town wins, giving a winrate of 53%.

I've been noticing a sentiment that people dislike too much complexity in Normal games for a long time now. I don't disagree – having recently updated the Mini Normal archives I saw no shortage of games that seemed very non-normal and some setups that I think should never have been run, yes. That being said, it seems to me like Normal game balance is in about as good a state as it could be.
This really saddens me : /
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Post Post #47 (isolation #11) » Fri May 01, 2020 1:51 am

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

I vastly prefer games that are fun to play than balanced. As long as they don't feel overpowering for one alignment for the other, I don't care about balance.
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Post Post #49 (isolation #12) » Fri May 01, 2020 4:05 am

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

Here's where our mindsets diverge.

I think that game feel and game balance are inherently different things. A game can be balanced by numbers and still feel really shitty to play, which the open setup listing should hopefully provide enough examples to show what I mean.

My problem is that in the normal games I've played, the scumteam either have unrealistic expectations of them compared to town, or the game is incredibly swingy to balance a specific role or player amount. This is functionally the problem I have with normal games. The fact that they're technically balanced means very little to me, because my idea of an optimal normal queue is relatively simple games that focus on day play while theme games can focus more on mechanical play. I've gotten this feeling in years past, but this has been lost in recent ones.

Fundamentally, I think this is probably a sizable chunk of why a lot of scum players can't get motivated to try in them anymore, which means that when competent towns appear, they ultimately stomp the game in my experience. I can describe what I mean by competent towns when I have time to sit down.

I call old towns better because they simply had to be. There was less of a cushion in PRs in a lot of games and there were more strong scum players. It's rather disturbing to have this reputation for strong scum play when I only ever got the impression that I got the advantage in games because towns destroyed themselves and i just happen to be half decent at amplifying that. That's not strong scum play, that's abusing weak town play.
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Post Post #50 (isolation #13) » Fri May 01, 2020 4:06 am

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

In post 48, northsidegal wrote:In fact, it seems to me like the mindset of "as long as this is fun the balance matters less" is what leads to very complex Normal setups, the kind of which I was under the impression that you disliked.
Complexity isn't inherently more fun. I find relying on dayplay far more fun than nightplay.

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