Trigger Warning: Word Discussion: Gaslighting

[TemporalLich]

I would consider the word "gaslighting" to refer to play, not player.

Using the word "gaslighting" should not be actionable as calling player's play that is criticizing play. Criticizing play is a part of Mafia and should not be considered actionable.

[TemporalLich]

If it's being thrown around like a basketball it might be worth looking into further - that would be a pretty clear indicator of toxic play and possibly manipulation

But with no information and me not reading the game in question it doesn't seem fair to immediately get a warning for merely using a word to criticize play. I still would not consider that actionable, just something to remember for next game you mod.

[TemporalLich]

In that case if it carries that strong a connotation it might not be acceptable in Mafia - I thought gaslighting was a manipulation tactic (used by abusive people)

Calling people domestic abusers is a flagrant breach of the critisicing play/criticizing player line - that's when action needs to be taken about toxicity.

[TemporalLich]

Yeah, I'd consider gaslighting abusive to the point where it does not belong in Mafia, though this thread is about whether accusing someone of gaslighting is acceptable in Mafia games (I don't know but my initial opinion was yes)

[TemporalLich]

I doubt that this is really something that will be actionable writ large on the site in the general rules. I think it will continue to be something that individual mods decide for themselves what is and is not acceptable discourse in their games and I think that's the way it should be. In general, I think the word itself isn't really even what is at issue here. I feel like there are many words which would have caused a similar reaction both from the players in the game and from myself, and its not worth it to try to enumerate what all those words are in advance. I think we just need to trust mods to listen to their players and their gut and continue to step in if they feel discourse is crossing any lines OOG.

The question to me seems to be: are mods correct to make this judgement call and limit discourse when they think it is damaging in an OOG sort of way, and I unquestionably come down on the side that it is.

yeah, I feel game mods should be able to make judgment calls on whether something is damaging out of game - calling someone an abuser is damaging out of game and tends to be poison to game health (hence the term "toxic")

[TemporalLich]

I think the main point that doesn't have a resolution is whether it is acceptable to gaslight in Mafia or not.

[TemporalLich]

I think we can agree if gaslighting is acceptable in Mafia and calling out gaslighting is not acceptable we have an unfair and toxic strategy and the game of Mafia is unbalanced in favor of toxic players as you have a strategy for players to abuse other players with no recourse. That is a fact, not an opinion.

You could hypothetically gaslight them into thinking they gambited whem they said something when they in fact did not.

This would be an example of gaslighting, you are trying to manipulate a player's memory.

pedit: Morphing in this hypothetical scenario refers to changing people's context around reads, while gaslighting refers to making people question their reality. I do feel the mere act of questioning reads is not gaslighting, and twisting people's words is a separate manipulation tactic.

[TemporalLich]

I think we can agree if gaslighting is acceptable in Mafia and calling out gaslighting is not acceptable we have an unfair and toxic strategy and the game of Mafia is unbalanced in favor of toxic players as you have a strategy for players to abuse other players with no recourse. That is a fact, not an opinion.

I think the disconnect here is that the technical definition of gaslighting and the emotional heft of the TERM gaslighting do not align in game. I don't think anyone is saying "you cannot call out someone trying to make you doubt in a Mafia game",
they are saying that in Mafia, causing someone to doubt as a manipulation tactic (where it is part of the game) is so vastly different from doing it in actual interpersonal interactions (where it is abuse) that the same term shouldn't be used for both.

Equivocation would turn that statement into a logical fallacy that does not make sense.

"I think we can agree if gaslighting [causing someone to doubt their reality as a manipulation tactic] is acceptable in Mafia and calling out gaslighting [a form of abuse in interpersonal interactions] is not acceptable we have an unfair and toxic strategy and the game of Mafia is unbalanced in favor of toxic players as you have a strategy for players to abuse other players with no recourse. That is a fact, not an opinion." is a prime example of equivocation, and ends up allowing the Mafia bubble to pop due to a word having two meanings.

A way to solve this is to invent a new Mafia term that means gaslighting [causing someone to doubt their reality as a manipulation tactic] but doesn't have connotations of abuse. "Morphing" tried to do this but I don't see them as equal. However with gaslighting [causing someone to doubt their reality as a manipulation tactic] not being meta to my knowledge any attempt to do this would just fall apart.