Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[mastin2]

Funny story:

I remember before I left on my vacation, we were actively discussion how to incorporate new setups, in like three different threads, since we all agreed there was a problem, in
-Randomization
-Balance
-Player interest.

...And I thought that a plan was already under way and approved for there to be variety in the games.

...So when I came back and checked the Newbie Games, I was quite shocked to see that every single game being run was

still

2of4, a game which I as an experienced player do not enjoy playing.

And honestly, those issues will always be there unless we get more than just one or two or three setups. We need something like five or six, be it semi-open or full-open; it doesn't matter, but one or two setups will become just as boring and tedious as any other one or two setups.

For the record, I do like the 2of3 setup proposed, but I think we need more than that.

Significantly

more.

[mastin2]

The difference between Cop+Doc vs. RB and mountainous vs. RB is really bad.

Not "really bad", actually. It was statistically significant, showing a clear lean towards one side great enough to be significant, but it was not

that

significant. (Basically, it was important and significant, but not seriously so.)

It's actually not all too different from the stats we have on the current setup combos, really. (Though if it means anything: the flawed setup of F11 was more fun for me to play than the flawed setup of 2of4 is to play.)

[mastin2]

(Bah, lost my post.)

Macho Cop/Doc, right? I like Bird. Quick, simple and introduces the basics.

If we ran a Bird game, I'd play it. Those which I've been in have been fun. Nice, short, and I think it'd actually be quite helpful.



Another thing I'd like to say--
I think that the buildup on SEs is a problem. I've proposed it before, but I really think we need a bridge position between SEs and ICs.

SEs right now are a really broad position. Two games, and that's it. You can fill that requirement in less than a month. You can also be playing as an SE with years under your belt. That's a lot of variety.

ICs are a really specific position. The gaming requirement isn't that hard, but the teaching requirement scares people off. So very few people, in comparison, become ICs.


I think that we either need a "Teacher's Assistant" position, and/or a "Veteran Player" position. The former would be how I play as an SE, anyway: there to help the IC, fill in the gaps and give the newbies some extra teaching help, but not to overshadow the IC. (Unless the IC is

really

bad and the TA is really good. ) The idea here is to lessen the load on the IC, to make the burden on their shoulders be lower, so that it encourages more people to take up the IC position rather than clog up the SE position.

The latter would be like an IC, but without the teaching requirement. A lot of veteran players who enjoy playing in newbies probably don't want to be burdened as a teacher, and the SE position is their only option for that.

[mastin2]

mastin, Newbie Games are for the newbies. If veteran players don't want to be burdened with teaching, they can in as an SE or join a different queue.

(I'm pretty sure that as an IC you can in as an SE.)

Yeah, the SE's only exist as a slot for non newbies to play anyway, but the games are by and large for newbies and the 2 SE 1 IC structure is fine as it is and doesn't need to change. (I think it only exists to guarantee a townie of some experience yeah?)

If the line is too long, consider another queue or replace into a newbie game.

And that's exactly the problem--the line is too long, because of how broad an SE's definition is. You can have it and still be a newb, depending on how fast your other games ran. You can have it and be extremely experienced. And the thing is, the line being too long won't get shorter by telling those in it to either replace in or go to another queue, because chances are quite high that people who would be in the queue if it wasn't so long have already done exactly that.

SEs can be of any experience, from still a newb but having played two unproductive games, to a veteran with years under their belt. You can play as an SE when you have enough experience to IC, but therein lies the problem; in doing so, the SE queue gets longer because a player who could be IC'ing is instead choosing to SE. (And quite frankly, it's not hard to understand why. I prefer being the SE, there to act as a TA if needed, but not interfering with the IC. There to offer my years of experience, but not there to teach in any official capacity. When teaching as an IC, there's instantly a level of pressure beyond the norm.)

[mastin2]

Balance is cool and all but it's secondary to fun.

Great, then let's can 2of4 and go back to F11, since it's a whole heck of a lot more fun than 2of4 is!

[mastin2]

Bumping this again.

I checked the Road to Rome again, and saw that--as far as I can tell--the 2of4 setup is

still

the only one being run, which means that changes have

still

not been made.
We've been talking about this for months. Surely there has to have been some progress, so I was wondering if I could get a status update on what's being done.

[mastin2]

Also at a quick glance I can easily foresee an IC shortage if we were to permanently go back to a 2 IC system just on looking at the backlog of the newbie que as it stands now.

If we got a new setup in the rotation, I'd volunteer to IC in a heartbeat.

(I do not enjoy the 2of4 setup. At all. It's not fun for me to play in as either town or scum. As a teacher, I have a harder time teaching the players than I did in F11, too, but that's not nearly as important as the fun factor. My dissatisfaction for it is the only reason I have stopped playing in Newbies. I'd be fine with playing it if it was the setup I was assigned to play in and there were other options which I just so happened to miss, but going into the queue and knowing it's always going to land me into a 2of4 gives me incentive NOT to sign up.)

[mastin2]

So, basically...
1-2 of {Tracker, Doctor, Cop} vs. 0-1 of {rolecop, roleblocker, 1-shot strongman}?

[mastin2]

Dislike this "Tons of setups" stuff btw. Going to be confusing and distract from the scumhunting.

If it worked the way I said it did...

So, basically...
1-2 of {Tracker, Doctor, Cop} vs. 0-1 of {rolecop, roleblocker, 1-shot strongman}?

...Then this wouldn't be a problem.

There would be some unbalanced combinations (especially unbalanced in the scum direction), and simply removing those from the possible lineup would create an overall balanced environment while avoiding this "tons of setups" problem.

[mastin2]

Alright.

1 Tracker, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Tracker, 1 Doctor, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 1-shot Strongman
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop

The newbie setup is:
1 or 2 of {Tracker, Doc, Cop} and 5 or 6 Vanilla Townies (for a total of 7 members of the Town) vs. 1 Goon and 1 of {Goon, Roleblocker, Rolecop, 1-shot Strongman}
There are some combinations of these roles that will not be chosen. These combinations are:
2 Town PRs vs 2 Goons
Doctor vs Strongman
Doctor vs Roleblocker

I need someone to call me crazy.

'Cause the latter version? That--to me--looks a

lot

simpler and easier to understand than the list version.

Am I crazy, or is quadz crazy?