Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[Human Destroyer]

Assuming by career newbies you mean people who only play newbie games

Yeah I have some time today and could take a look

EDIT: Just from the current SE queue, 4/28 SEs are Newbie Career players.

So if we just went by that let's just say 1 out of every 7 SEs are Newbie Career players.

EDIT2: Not a single IC currently signed up is a Newbie Career player, although I figured that would be relatively obvious.

[Human Destroyer]

I don't think there's really a good reason to include Macho Cop setups, since the fact that the setup is already semi-open where it isn't always Cop/Doctor means Follow the Cop won't really happen, which is really the point of the Macho Cop in the first place.

Tracker idk

[Human Destroyer]

Hrm...maybe if each game had it's own "set" of setups it could use?

Like, some would use F11, some would use 2of3, some would use 2of4?

And then maybe Bird and JK9 could be seperate?

[Human Destroyer]

Well having 12 possible setups per game isn't exactly simple either...

[Human Destroyer]

I think the general advantage to separating games by whether they're F11, 2of4, or 2of3 is really that it makes the smaller number of possible setups easier to digest for newer players in an individual game, rather than them having to think about a whopping 12 possible setups per game.

I guess it doesn't particularly matter, but y'know, food for thought

[Human Destroyer]

^Does it even matter?

[Human Destroyer]

If you wanted to put a Roleblocker in with a JK, the only really good option is to consider a JK a "protect" ability for the purposes of NAR. (Therefore allowing it to be roleblocked) IMO it also makes sense with the way a roleblocker is meant to work.

[Human Destroyer]

Cop/JK and Doc/VT are scumsided, everything else is townsided, yeah. Cop/JK is only slightly scumsided though.

[Human Destroyer]

Cop/JK is only slightly scumsided though.

That's the most town sided setup. (if you get a scum lynched and both PRs are still alive, even if they've both claimed, it's almost impossible for scum to get a win there.)

I was reading it straight off Newbie Data (town win percentage is 42.86%)

Also, yeah, like CFJ said, it requires something that may not happen.

[Human Destroyer]

I think the current proposed setup is Quilford's:

Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon	Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Roleblocker	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
Mafia Rolecop	Town Tracker	Town Doctor

Pick any row, column, or diagonal with three cells.

Add Mafia Goons and Vanilla Townies as necessary for 2:7.

A friend of mine and I were talking and we were thinking that JK and RB should be switched, same with Cop/Doc; allows for avoiding RB/Cop vs. Rolecop, which is horribly townsided.

[Human Destroyer]

I don't actually have a problem with the cop+rb v rc problem, as the main purpose of my post was to laugh at human destroyer changing one apperently townsided setup to make a different setup even more townsided.
(the jk swapping with the rb, makes a cop/jk v rc (which is a slight problem in 2of4) and the cop/doc switch would give the same thing except that mafia wouldn't even have a rolecop)

That was me being a derp and not realizing that made Cop/JK vs. Goon/Goon >.>

[Human Destroyer]

I tried my hand at the matrix format. Rows and columns:

Town Cop	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Town Nonconsecutive Commuter	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

There's a little less power generally which is good and we avoid the strongman. RB issues still exist (both in RB vs. JK and RBlynch being really bad for the scum in the Cop-Doc set-up) but are lessened (you don't need to decide on an order-based resolotion or NAT (what if the jailkeeper targets the roleblocker who targets someone else?) and the disastrous RBlynch only occurs in one of the two set-up). The commuter is admittedly a little inelegant.

• 6x Vanilla Townie, 1x Town Cop, 2x Mafia Goon
  
  
• 5x Vanilla Townie, 1x Town Cop, 1x Town Doctor, 1x Mafia Roleblocker, 1x Mafia Goon
  
• 5x Vanilla Townie, 1x Town Non-Consecutive Night Commuter, 1x Town Tracker, 2x Mafia Goon
  
• 5x Vanilla Townie, 1x Town Cop, 1x Town Non-Consecutive Night Commuter, 1x Mafia Roleblocker, 1x Mafia Goon
  
• 5x Vanilla Townie, 1x Town Doctor, 1x Town Cop, 2x Mafia Goon
  
  
• 5x Vanilla Townie, 1x Town Non-Consecutive Night Commuter, 1x Town Cop, 2x Mafia Goon
  
• 4x Vanilla Townie, 2x Town Cop, 1x Town Tracker, 2x Mafia Goon

The bolded setup appears twice.

The italicized two seem town-sided. Especially the second one.

[Human Destroyer]

Oh, really?

I thought there was, heh. I probably should've figured it out before I posted that considering how ridiculous it sounded but oh well.

[Human Destroyer]

A couple of us on another site playtested CES's matrix in real time mafia cause we were bored. Albeit, we tested with relatively experienced players, but still. (I generated BP/JK/Maf RB)

Most of them thought it was townsided, mostly owing to the nature of being able to better predict what other PR is in the game if you are a town PR. They found it enjoyable though.

[Human Destroyer]

Well, no, you could still randomize it every time to get a good feel of it's balance. There doesn't need to be a perfect amount of each setup.

[Human Destroyer]

It isn't really face-to-face, it was on a chatroom, but I'm assuming the same concept applies.

That seems kinda weird though; why is that? And what happens if it's scumsided in face-to-face, is it a broken towards scum setup?

[Human Destroyer]

That's probably much better, CES.

CES':

Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Town 1-shot BP	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

Quil's:

Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon	Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Roleblocker	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
Mafia Rolecop	Town Tracker	Town Doctor

None of Phoenicks' presented matrices seem feasible for balance reasons. (Plus, miller bad in newbies.)

I actually do like using a BP town rather than a strongman mafia; it's simpler, and BP is already a normal role modifier, so we don't have to worry about that hullabaloo.

I believe it's this.

[Human Destroyer]

It's the politics problem. Many people who are perfectly well-qualified to IC are not signing up, so much of the pool is mediocre. Much of it is good too, of course, but many people don't do it for silly "not good enough" reasons when they would do just fine playing as they normally do, and doing a more extensive past-mortem.

I think the major thing that keeps people from wanting to IC is that it puts unwanted pressure on them to do better than they normally could, when really that's not the case.
I IC'ed a game just fine playing normally and only stopping to answer questions that came up.
Then after the game, show the newer players where they went right, where they went wrong, and what they can improve on. Some people might simply have difficulty doing that, possibly because they aren't confident enough in their own play to feel that they can make such a "judgement" (putting it in quotes because I don't really think it's a judgement, but moreso a constructive critique). Others may just not know what to say.
IC'ing isn't a job for everyone though, and that should really be acknowledged.

[Human Destroyer]

I mean I think we'd be better off just automatically signing people up as ICs who meet the experience requirements and disqualifying them from play if they do something horrible as one. (Like Self-Vote, Self Hammer, Berate a newbie in an abusive manner, ect.) There's too many people who are avoiding becoming an IC because they just don't want to or because they think they can't do it. (And more than likely they can.)

Hell no. The IC position is voluntary; it should stay that way.

No one's forcing you to be an IC. It's just saying you can't in to a newbie game without being one.

If you're not a newbie and you've played 5 or more games, why should you be allowed to in to a newbie game without being an IC? I'd like to see a single legitimate argument made for this actually.

I can give you 2:

-Some people lack confidence in their play even at 5 or more games (JasonWazza for example) and don't want to leave the newbie queue (or apply to IC) before they're satisfied with their play.
-Some people want to just play with newbies without the pressure of having to keep up an image of a model player.